Jump to content


How do you select and contract a yacht designer ?


  • Please log in to reply
118 replies to this topic

#1 Laurent

Laurent

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:Singapore

Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:31 PM

Let's say that you want to build a boat (or more accurately, get a boat built) to a design/concept that you cannot find in normal sailboat production...

What you want is enough off the charts that there is nothing out there available even close to what you want. At this stage, you already understand that resale value of what you want will be close to zero... and you don't care.

 

You have some engineering background but you are no yacht designer... So better get help from a pro.

 

So how do you select a yacht designer? How do you approach him? (do you email him; "hi, I want you to design a boat for me, can we talk?"... I don't think so...)

How do you frame a contract/deal so all parties are happy? How do you define the "deliverables" (some sets of drawings could be considered "enough" for the designer, where you are expecting fully detailed construction drawings, etc...). Are there "predefined/preformated contractual agreements?

How do you manage the timeline?

How do you know you are not getting ripped off?...

 

So who could share their experience, good or bad? Without naming names, if you do not want to...

 

I  wrote EXPERIENCE; if you have not been through that process yourself, but only knows someone who knows someone who told him, go away.

 

 

I am looking forward to hearing from the guys (and gals) who have done it.



#2 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

Wait for the resident SA naval architect to log on. Tell him what you want done and ask how much. Let everyone else chime in with better ideas.

3,000 posts later you will have an SA-designed boat B)

BTW, you really could just call up and ask for a boat design. That is their JOB - they WANT people calling up for boat designs.

When I needed a design I called up the local guy experienced in steel powerboats, told him what I wanted, had a few meetings to go over things, and got the drawings for my half-assed welder to go totally screw up for me (long story).

 

And yes - you need to spec your deliverables. Do you want enough for someone to loft a hull and take it from there or detail down to the last inch of wire and hose?

If you are doing any kind of CAD/CAM stuff you want files in the format the vendors can use. It is possible to have a metal boat more or less on a thumb drive that a metal cutting shop would use to make a giant pile of parts perfectly cut for you.



#3 Mud sailor

Mud sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 511 posts

Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:00 PM

+1

#4 carcrash

carcrash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 737 posts
  • Location:Waikiki Yacht Club

Posted 02 August 2014 - 06:20 PM

Similar: needed something that is not on the market. Am an engineer, but not a structural engineer nor naval architect.

I consulted on a good friends $5m build a few years ago, so got a good overview of the entire process. Its complicated and takes awhile. But I got to spend a lot of time with a lot of high quality designers and builders, and it was a real eye opener.

For mine, I decided to do it myself. If not now, when?

I have "designed" since I was a kid, going through all the standard yacht design text books, long hand hydrostatics and structure etc forever. But never actually built an entire boat to my design. Built lots and lots of other stuff to my designs. But no boats.

Lots and lots of learning required -- people do get degrees in this stuff! And 3D CAD takes some time to figure out. That was the most frustrating part, until I took a week training for $$$. That got me going finally. The hydro and aero I have a good handle on, but still took lots of study and numerical work. Now, its the structural, to meet ISO scantlings. I am writing software to do it. Always found that to be the best way to really understand something. But to avoid GIGO, I have had three design reviews so far, and will have at least two more, to be sure I am not screwing up.

Its hard, challenging, frustrating, and rewarding. Often I feel like giving up and letting a naval architect take over. But I have always wanted to be a yacht designer. So I am becoming a yacht designer.

#5 Keltic fauroux qt

Keltic fauroux qt

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Location:Holland europe
  • Interests:Family, sailing, autoracing

Posted 02 August 2014 - 08:16 PM

Our first sailingboat order was a "vd Stad" design - stadtdesign.com - what our experience was, back in the days, is the yard only build and delivers what is contracted, nothing more. The agreement with the contractor is sometimes even more important then the design goals and the design itself. Yes you can call the yachtarchitect / design office of your choice and make an appointment. What we also learned is that an architect of good sailingboats is not always the best architect to design your interior. The design offices also know aboat costs to build and which wharf to contract.

A good boat is sometomes build with two designers, one for the ship and one for the interior. A good yard has sometimes the hull build on another wharf. In our country is the Bloemsma Wharf in Makkum Holland is a famous hull contractor. http://www.bloemsma-aluminiumbouw.nl , last week I saw the Tripp Design 46 mtr - 150ft - hull delivered bij shiptransport to the Wharf of Hollandjachtbouw.nl - it was spot on. Www.trippdesign.net

Another trend (in our country) is the semi custom wharfs like Contest and Atlantic which let you choose out of pre ready design options. http://www.contestyachts.com/ and http://www.atlanticyachts.nl/home/.

Also look at Www.kmy.nl

My advice should be take a well known architect and make together a choice which wharf.

#6 NZW

NZW

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 67 posts
  • Location:Antipodean
  • Interests:umm ... sailing?

Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:18 PM

We started pretty much where you are, couldn't find anything that was just what we wanted.  Then a friend in the rigging industry sent us some drawings that were close to what we'd been thinking, so we did pretty much just what you mentioned: did some homework on the designer*, then sent an email saying 'we're interested in discussing a boat project ...'  and went from there.  

 

* that's the most important bit.  Just like getting a builder or architect for your house, or a business partner... once you establish that they in the leading bunch of their field, i.e. possess the necessary skills, then the attitude/personality of the designer becomes the most important factor.    So speak with individual owners who have used the designer you're interested in, speak to those in the know (riggers, sailmakers, pros etc who *don't* have a vested interest) and pretty much ignore commercial marketing.  



#7 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:51 PM

I do "off the charts". The process is very easy. First find a designer you can communicate easily with and he will map out the sequence for you. Your relationship will become very close before the boat is launched. It's good to end the project friends.

sails4_zps4434b369.jpg



#8 willsailforfood

willsailforfood

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  • Location:The Raincoast
  • Interests:PHRF? NOT!

Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:37 PM

We've had a relationship with S&S going back almost two decades, mostly due to my friendship with Mitch, but Oiln became a friend prior to his death as did many of the staff.

 

While we did not commission a new build, we did buy a classic in need of a full restoration and I cannot say enough about S&S.  If the archives (between S&S & Mystic) and availability of every schedule and plan for a boat they built 60 years ago is any indication of how a great design shop should be run, this is it.

 

They have historical records of our boat dating to her launching including photos at many stages of her life, every single plan, and of course the original design specifications Olin and Rod drew up for Nevins (this is really a book detailing every fastener, piece of hardware, glue type, etc.  They were VERY involved in the construction of their yachts).  This has proven invaluable to us countless times during the restoration, but for an owner who plans to own and update a boat over a lifetime, this will be equally valuable.

 

I'm not suggesting other designers don't share this detailed ethic, but I have been overwhelmed at how far beyond S&S has been willing to go, even after Olin's death, 60 years after the boat's original build.  The level of integrity is simply beyond any imagination.

 

You might consider reading Rod Stephen's unpublished memoirs, unfinished before his death, but released by S&S some years back.  It has a wealth of information & perspective, though it may be dated by some recent advances in materials.

 

Good luck.



#9 Mud sailor

Mud sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 511 posts

Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:56 AM

Create a list of all the designers you can think of

Group them by expertise.....are they mostly race boat designers, cruising designers a bit of both, production or one off

Where are they located, do you want to meet face to face often?

Where do you want to build the boat? Are they local? Will you need (want) build supervision?

What material are you planning on building in?

All these questions will help you narrow it down, then talk to them, form a relationship, you are going to be investing a lot of time and money....not a decision to be taken quickly

#10 klkirkman

klkirkman

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:33 AM

Laurent,

 

Study the designs of a lot of different designers, and find the one whose designs you admire and feel the most comfortable with. Be sure to consider aesthetics as well as technology. Hire that person,and then stay out of his way.

 

If you feel you know more than the designer, do not hire that individual.

 

If the designer is willing to give in to what you want against his judgement, do not hire that individual.

 

Although yacht designers do not necessarily address this matter explicitly, the design process comes in stages with different objectives to each stage,and different deliverables:

Concept design - investigate whether the design ideas you favor are likely to be able to be combined in a single yacht,and roughly what it would look like.

Preliminary design - determine whether the yacht you conceive of is likely to be  able to be built and be successful.

Contract design - define the yacht in sufficient detail to be able to solicit bids to have it constructed that do not have large contingency allowances.

Detail design - keep the shipyard from building the wrong yacht.

 

Once you get past the concept design, your ability to make major redirection to the yacht diminish rapidly; consider doing a number of different concept designs - maybe even by different designers,and down selecting.

 

 

Karl



#11 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,208 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:38 AM

Let's say that you want to build a boat (or more accurately, get a boat built) to a design/concept that you cannot find in normal sailboat production...

What you want is enough off the charts that there is nothing out there available even close to what you want. At this stage, you already understand that resale value of what you want will be close to zero... and you don't care.

 

You have some engineering background but you are no yacht designer... So better get help from a pro.

 

So how do you select a yacht designer? How do you approach him? (do you email him; "hi, I want you to design a boat for me, can we talk?"... I don't think so...)

How do you frame a contract/deal so all parties are happy? How do you define the "deliverables" (some sets of drawings could be considered "enough" for the designer, where you are expecting fully detailed construction drawings, etc...). Are there "predefined/preformated contractual agreements?

How do you manage the timeline?

How do you know you are not getting ripped off?...

 

So who could share their experience, good or bad? Without naming names, if you do not want to...

 

I  wrote EXPERIENCE; if you have not been through that process yourself, but only knows someone who knows someone who told him, go away.

 

 

I am looking forward to hearing from the guys (and gals) who have done it.

 

 

PM Hot Rod for Free Thinking "Out of the   Box   Mind Design 



#12 bigrpowr

bigrpowr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 147 posts
  • Location:moorpark
  • Interests:big horsepower

Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:54 AM

call Alan Andrews or Bob Perry.

We called Alan. He did a hell of a job.

#13 Alcatraz5768

Alcatraz5768

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 326 posts
  • Location:Auckland New Zealand

Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:34 AM

When I needed a new keel designed for my yacht, I just phoned a couple of designers and said what I wanted. At that point I went with my gut as to who to proceed with (Greg Elliott as it happens) and it is just like any other business relationship, keep up communication and you will be fine.
As for your first enquiries, they are just people and they would love to hear from you.

#14 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 03 August 2014 - 04:32 PM

Allan Andrews is one of the most under appreciated designers out there and a great guy. Give him a call.

I'm a bit busy now with my real job.

IMG_4650_zps5e80c7e5.jpg



#15 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,208 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 03 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

Just belly up to the Bar at Fiddler's Green and the designers will come

 

they won't have a name tag or shirt w Co. Logo or anything

 

But if you know who they are and what they look like ...........................

 

But be careful - one might toss you from the dock if you piss them off enough ( far better than a fucking lawsuit )  :o  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



#16 willsailforfood

willsailforfood

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  • Location:The Raincoast
  • Interests:PHRF? NOT!

Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:04 PM

Another name I would add to the list is Bruce Johnson, who was lead designer at S&S in the years just before Mitch passed.  Bruce then took the helm as President of the firm after Mitch's passing. 

 

As I recall, Bruce was working with Brooklin on some projects, if you can't find him readily, PM me and I can get you in touch.

 

You're likely already familiar with his work:

 

Anna - Link 1

Anna - Link 2, 3

 

pic4.jpg



#17 SailingJunkie

SailingJunkie

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts
  • Location:Deep River, CT
  • Interests:Duh?

Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:06 PM

From experience, it's likely that the designer will need to choose you as well. It's their name going on what ever you have in mind for ever.

Are your thoughts leaning toward any particular design? I know you said it was out of the box and believe me, most everything has been considered by now. Any clues so that we may be able to do more than rattle off possible candidates?

SJ

#18 Mark Mills

Mark Mills

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 111 posts

Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:42 PM

I thought there was a lot of wisdom in Karls comments, and assuming he is the Karl L Kirkman who has been part of the yacht design and research fraternity for so long, that would make sense...

 

Laurent,

 

Study the designs of a lot of different designers, and find the one whose designs you admire and feel the most comfortable with. Be sure to consider aesthetics as well as technology. Hire that person,and then stay out of his way.

 

If you feel you know more than the designer, do not hire that individual.

 

If the designer is willing to give in to what you want against his judgement, do not hire that individual.

 

Although yacht designers do not necessarily address this matter explicitly, the design process comes in stages with different objectives to each stage,and different deliverables:

Concept design - investigate whether the design ideas you favor are likely to be able to be combined in a single yacht,and roughly what it would look like.

Preliminary design - determine whether the yacht you conceive of is likely to be  able to be built and be successful.

Contract design - define the yacht in sufficient detail to be able to solicit bids to have it constructed that do not have large contingency allowances.

Detail design - keep the shipyard from building the wrong yacht.

 

Once you get past the concept design, your ability to make major redirection to the yacht diminish rapidly; consider doing a number of different concept designs - maybe even by different designers,and down selecting.

 

 

Karl



#19 doghouse

doghouse

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,333 posts
  • Location:Virginia Beach, Va.

Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:50 PM



Are your thoughts leaning toward any particular design?

 

 

This is the most important to consider, along with the working relationship.



#20 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,208 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:53 PM



Are your thoughts leaning toward any particular design?

 

 

This is the most important to consider, along with the working relationship.And Budget 

 

 

fixed  :o



#21 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,693 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 03 August 2014 - 11:10 PM

The first two stages of Karl's list above are critical as is his comment about once you're into the later stages you can't/shouldn't make many changes.  There is a great example of this process going wrong here where a brief was taken to a very good designer but through lack of clarity and understanding by the client the boat went in a direction that was typical of the designer but not necessarily what the client was after at the start.  An awesome product was produced but it ticked few of the original boxes.

 

Also the approach you wrote off above is exactly what you do, email or just call and have a chat you'll know after a short time on the phone whether you're talking to the right person.  Also with a few exceptions "off the charts" is exactly what most Naval Architects are looking for.  90% of jobs have a brief along the lines of "I really like what you did for X, but i just want a few tweaks (or to go a little faster)" when like anyone Naval Architects are looking for variation in their work life.



#22 cbs

cbs

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 25 posts
  • Location:OZ
  • Interests:.

Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:26 AM

From the other side of the table:

 

Calling or emailing directly is the best thing you can do.

 

As a NA, who does include the odd yacht in his work, I have never signed a proper design contract that is quite often talked about.  More often than not, I simply become "part of the furniture" during the build, and am simply on call supplying endless streams of information to the builder till the end.  This is not to say that I won't prepare a detailed quote, for which I will stick to by the letter.  I also expect the client to do the same, other wise all bets are off.  Surprisingly, its the small jobs that want to narrow me down on the job.  The expensive projects are the ones where I am given the freedom to make things happen as the design side is but a small part of the entire cost.

 

Don't be afraid to put your "off the charts" idea on the table.  The worst that can happen is that you hear the answer "No" Then you can try someone else.  Personally, I love off the charts projects.  I currently have an off the charts yacht project that often gets the "are you serious" response straight away.  I tell people to go as far left field as they dare, then take another step to see where this one is at in the distance. 

 

Find someone you want to work with, then see if you would like to work with them.  As was said above, you might be friends at the end...



#23 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:43 PM

If we had a clue what kind of boat the OP wanted it would help.



#24 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,926 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:55 PM

Another name I would add to the list is Bruce Johnson, who was lead designer at S&S in the years just before Mitch passed.  Bruce then took the helm as President of the firm after Mitch's passing. 

 

As I recall, Bruce was working with Brooklin on some projects, if you can't find him readily, PM me and I can get you in touch.

 

You're likely already familiar with his work:

 

Anna - Link 1

Anna - Link 2, 3

 

pic4.jpg

 

Based on a half dozen trips to Brooklin on the rebuilt Tripp 51, Katrinka in the summer of 2011, I can't speak any more highly of the quality of that yards work.



#25 Laurent

Laurent

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:Singapore

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:08 PM

All,

Thanks a lot for your input. A lot of valuable feedback... and some may say common sense. But as we all know, common sense is not that common.

I did not expect 20+ answers...

 

But I still do not have a clue on how a yacht designer charges for his work. By the hour? By the foot of Waterline??? By the displacement??? A lump sum amount for the whole enchilada???

 

I have to admit that if I did not give more details originally about what I was looking for because I was concerned that you woud shut me down right of the bat... That has been frustrating for some of you apparently, sorry about that.

 

So here it is, and please kill me softly...

 

I am dreaming of a about 45ft - low tech to build - "multihull of the third kind".

 

 

 

????

 

 

 

If you have not figured out yet, go see there:

http://www.biekerboa...roa-it-has.html

and there:

http://proa32.blogsp...8&by-date=false

 

A very preliminary design brief would be:

 - able to sleep 4 comfortably, with accomodations in the line of RV'ing rather than igloo tent camping (difference from design above).

 - preferably schooner rig (I built my own proa, beach multihull style - 20 ft long, and experienced with different rigs, and found the schooner much easier to shunt - that's the equivalent to "tack" for proas when the stern becomes the bow, and vice-versa)

 - fast (significantly above TWS over a wide range of TWA and wind speed - to be discussed more in details with the designer to define what is feasible); VPP for the design above (32 ft) can be found here: http://www.biekerboa...-design-in.html

 - significantly cheaper than a multi (cat or tri) of the same lenght (knowing that we are not truly comparing apple to apple by judging on length)

 - must be capable of true offshore sailing (not a only-nice-weather-inside-the-bay type of boat); the 32ft boat above design brief includes Atlantic crossing, for instance.

 - I don't give a damn about resale value - let's be realistic here, at last....

 

So why a proa?

As I said, I have a small beach one, and I love the concept.

It is in theory the biggest bang for the buck, or in other words, the biggest waterline length for a given displacement for a reasonable price.

 

The designer of the 32 ft above is a respectable yacht designer. He has his own line of monohulls (Riptide) and was part of the design team of the last Oracle AC team (for the appendices, if I am correct). He also worked on modifications on Wild Oats XI. Knowing that someone of his caliper is willing to work on such a concept and produce plans all the way to CNC panels tells me that I am not a total lunatic.

 

 

 

So now, you can cruxify me...

 

Laurent



#26 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:15 PM

Chris White - if he is still in business - would be the guy for this.



#27 Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,007 posts
  • Location:Canadian Southwest
  • Interests:Ummmm......sailboat racing

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:33 PM

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

IMG_1109.JPG



#28 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

Not sure why you think we would all be against your boat anyway. Sounds interesting to me.



#29 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:44 PM

Not sure why you think we would all be against your boat anyway. Sounds interesting to me.



#30 TheFlash

TheFlash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

I worked with Paul in my I14 days, bought the 2nd (I think) of the Bieker 3s, spent a day with him rigging it. He's opinionated, and you should listen to him.  There's a reason for his opinions.

 

I'm pretty sure a phone call would work.

 

No idea how he charges.  Ask him.



#31 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,619 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:55 PM

Chris White - if he is still in business - would be the guy for this.

 

http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/

 

Russel Brown is the name I associate with proas. 

 

jzero_wsr.jpg

 

Designing and building boats is business is usual for boat designers and builders. There is, so far as I know, no secret handshake involved. I'm sure some designers are a bit leery of someone asking for a walk on the wild side since many of the dreamers that walk in the door have a spec that's impossible to meet. But they will probably listen for long enough for you to make a case that your dream boat is a practical possibility.

 

Just about everyone specializes to some degree, and designers are no exception. They may not want to, but customers go to someone with a track record in the desired field (multihulls, in your case).  Of course, they may have experience you don't know about.



#32 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,926 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:56 PM

"- must be capable of true offshore sailing...Atlantic crossing, for instance."  In a beach cat design?  Interesting.....



#33 Older Lesbian Robot

Older Lesbian Robot

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Location:Newport

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:56 PM

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 



#34 TheFlash

TheFlash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts
  • Location:San Francisco Bay
  • Interests:Rum

Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:56 PM

Paul and Russel work together.



#35 DDW

DDW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,105 posts

Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:23 PM

I have been all the way down the road you are contemplating. My advice is:

 

1) Don't do it, it will be a financial disaster. However once you have decided to ignore that.... :)

 

2) Interview designers who's work you like in the abstract (they will not have done a boat like you contemplate, or there would be no need for a custom); and pick one with whom you can effectively communicate.

 

3) Many (most?) custom yacht design work seems to be done for a percentage of finished cost, such as 10%. However in an oddball custom the cost may be difficult to predict, and is likely to be far more than expected. Therefore make sure there is an understanding up front to cover the range of possible outcomes. Suggestions might be a fixed cost, a cost based on first estimates of construction cost, or a fixed cost plus adders for uncontemplated changes or additions.

 

4) I disagree with the advice above to give preliminary input and then get out of the way. The NA may be a professional, but he/she does not know everything, and in particular does not have your vision of what you are trying to create (which is unique - the reason for the custom design). If a particular feature does not feel right to you, argue long and hard until you are convinced yourself that they are right, or insist on doing it your way. Many things like deck layout and accommodation are amenable to building cheap mockups to prove to yourself one way or the other. 

 

 

I'm sure you are familiar with Harry Proa?



#36 Veeger

Veeger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Location:Anacortes, Wa

Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:25 PM

Finding a designer is like getting married.  Find one who does the kind of work you want, like and respect.  Be the kind of client that the designer can like and respect.  Don't get cheap---custom designs never are.  But then, the final product won't likely be inexpensive either.  Whatever you spend on a designer will save you more on the build.

 

Custom designs cost multiples more than stock mail order plans for boats that you might find on the internet.  Those plans depend on many multiple copies being sold to give fair return to the designer.  For your project, they will cost in the vicinity of what a new car will cost-- not a kia and most likely not a Mercedes but somewhere in between....



#37 Veeger

Veeger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 981 posts
  • Location:Anacortes, Wa

Posted 04 August 2014 - 07:38 PM

4) I disagree with the advice above to give preliminary input and then get out of the way. The NA may be a professional, but he/she does not know everything, and in particular does not have your vision of what you are trying to create (which is unique - the reason for the custom design). If a particular feature does not feel right to you, argue long and hard until you are convinced yourself that they are right, or insist on doing it your way. Many things like deck layout and accommodation are amenable to building cheap mockups to prove to yourself one way or the other. 

It's a dance.  Push too hard and the designer might not want his name on it.  (But he might take your money anyway)  In my experience conventional wisdom sometimes governs their thought processes- which isn't always bad.  However, you do want the end result to be something you'll enjoy and be glad you spent the money on it.  Often the whole reason for a custom design is precisely because it's an unconventional idea.  

 

I've found that designs take on a life of their own and if they start to go in a direction you don't really feel good about, you've got to be willing to start over.  You can do it with the same designer or a different one but when you've spent $5-10k on a preliminary design, it's hard to walk away and do it again. 

 

Once you get past the concept design, your ability to make major redirection to the yacht diminish rapidly; consider doing a number of different concept designs - maybe even by different designers,and down selecting.  (Karl)

 

Karl's comments are the reality.  You can change direction but big changes require a re-start.



#38 DDW

DDW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,105 posts

Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:12 PM

4) I disagree with the advice above to give preliminary input and then get out of the way. The NA may be a professional, but he/she does not know everything, and in particular does not have your vision of what you are trying to create (which is unique - the reason for the custom design). If a particular feature does not feel right to you, argue long and hard until you are convinced yourself that they are right, or insist on doing it your way. Many things like deck layout and accommodation are amenable to building cheap mockups to prove to yourself one way or the other. 

It's a dance.  Push too hard and the designer might not want his name on it.  (But he might take your money anyway)  In my experience conventional wisdom sometimes governs their thought processes- which isn't always bad.  However, you do want the end result to be something you'll enjoy and be glad you spent the money on it.  Often the whole reason for a custom design is precisely because it's an unconventional idea.  

 

I've found that designs take on a life of their own and if they start to go in a direction you don't really feel good about, you've got to be willing to start over.  You can do it with the same designer or a different one but when you've spent $5-10k on a preliminary design, it's hard to walk away and do it again. 

 

Once you get past the concept design, your ability to make major redirection to the yacht diminish rapidly; consider doing a number of different concept designs - maybe even by different designers,and down selecting.  (Karl)

 

Karl's comments are the reality.  You can change direction but big changes require a re-start.

 

There may be a point where the disagreement is too big, and you must part company. For my own boat, I wouldn't care if the designer didn't want his name on it, if the alternative was something I didn't want to own. On my own boat (now in your neighborhood, eh?) there were several things on which we ultimately disagreed. The NA would not draw them the way I wanted them as he thought it wouldn't work, I knew it would (often because I had built mockups) and built them that way anyway. The NA was not terribly put off, just wanted corrected drawings so he could have a complete record. In every case I can think of (or choose to remember maybe  <_< ) I was right. 

 

You do want to get the direction right before you go too far. It gets harder and harder, both financially and emotionally, to back up or do a hard turn. 



#39 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:55 PM

DDW:

I was walking around your boat the other day. But it was shrouded so I could not get a good look. I think your rudder change is interesting. I would have gone the other way, i.e. leave the leading edge alone and gotten rid of some of that chord. That is the mother of all rudder chords on that short span rudder. But no worries, Jim and Kellan will do a great job on it. I look forward to your report on the mod.



#40 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,208 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:57 PM

should post how much $$$$$$$$$$$ you have for this project

 

it is the design (limiting factor) of your yacht (options) !!!!!



#41 gui

gui

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 817 posts

Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:46 PM

Something like that?
:)
You must be crazy dumb and stupit.
I ve been obsessed too, and definitely am all of the above.

Attached Files



#42 willsailforfood

willsailforfood

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  • Location:The Raincoast
  • Interests:PHRF? NOT!

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:51 AM


Based on a half dozen trips to Brooklin on the rebuilt Tripp 51, Katrinka in the summer of 2011, I can't speak any more highly of the quality of that yards work.

 

Between there and Rockport, it would be a hard choice for me.



#43 bigrpowr

bigrpowr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 147 posts
  • Location:moorpark
  • Interests:big horsepower

Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:14 AM

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.
 
 
IMG_1109.JPG

god icon looks so damn good.

#44 Laurent

Laurent

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:Singapore

Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:21 AM

billy backstay, that is NOT what I said; so read my post #25 again.

 

Older Lesbian Robot, what the hell do you mean???

 

The Flash, even if I have seen them only in pictures or videos, Russel Brown's proa are definitely a source of inspiration.

 

DDW, Veeger, thanks a lot for your input, so cost of design will be between a Kia and a Mercedes... I guess this is half tongue-in-cheek, but I understand the approach you explain for costing the design.

I have seen Haryproa and I have a lot of respect for Rob Denney; he is the only one selling prao plans and getting some builds going on, after all... I am not convinced that all weight to windward is the solution for me; and I am not that pleased with the aesthetics. He is a firm advocate of "dagger-rudders" outside the main hull, attached on the beams, and even though I do not contest the risk of retractable rudders in a trunk, I am not sure this is a more effective solution. On the other hand, his push for free standing masts makes sense to me.

 

DA-WOODY, I hear you, and I cannot see myself allocating more than USD 200k max for this project. I know that most people (maybe rightfully so) will tell me that it is impossible. But please, remember, eventhough I am talking about a multihull, we are not talking hightech construction. So after a review with a reliable yacht designer, IF the conclusion is that there is no freaking way to do it for that budget, I hope that I will have chosen the designer wisely so he will have the stand to tell me upfront, rather then letting me day-dreaming. If this is the case, so be it.... I won't go anyfurther.

 

gui, almost something like that... yes, I am crazy dumb and stupid.   Welcome to the club!



#45 Laurent

Laurent

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:Singapore

Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:30 AM

Regarding cost, another source of inspiration is here:

http://prao.guillard...e.fr/index2.htm

 

I sailed shortly on this boat; in light winds only. It's basically wood, plywood, epoxy and fiberglass, with a few bits of carbon fiber in the most loaded areas. It has been through a lot of modifications and upgrades, and even if it definitely works, there are some areas where you think "well, I would have done that differently..." and that is what I hope to avoid/mitigate with a professional designer. At 63 ft, it is a lot bigger than what I would cope with. But it is cheap, light, and proven. The boat is not new, and has crossed the Atlantic twice.



#46 willsailforfood

willsailforfood

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  • Location:The Raincoast
  • Interests:PHRF? NOT!

Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:48 AM

If you have not figured out yet, go see there:

http://www.biekerboa...roa-it-has.html

and there:

http://proa32.blogsp...8&by-date=false


Laurent


Bieker is an incredible talent. No question.



#47 harryproa

harryproa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:08 PM

I have seen Haryproa and I have a lot of respect for Rob Denney; he is the only one selling prao plans and getting some builds going on, after all... 

 

Not just selling them, but building, testing and refining them as well.  The latest racing one is easily rightable if capsized, almost self righting.  

 

I am not convinced that all weight to windward is the solution for me; 

 

Harryproas rarely have more than 60% of the weight to windward.  This makes far more sense (to me) than putting 75% of the weight to leeward and pumping water/shifting ballast when the wind increases or decreases.   Cruising with the windward hull flying for a half knot gain in speed does not make sense to me either.

 

I am not that pleased with the aesthetics.

 

Nor am I, but the object of the early boats was above all to make them light/fast,  cheap and easy to build.   Aesthetics suffered.     By light, cheap and easy, I mean $40,000 for professionally built painted hulls, beams and rudders for a 50'ter with 2 double berths and a comfortable cockpit.      

The carbon rig and fitout for this boat is another $30,000.

I am quite happy working with stylists for people who want to spend more money for the look they want.  eg http://harryproa.com...stom-20m-norway  

 

He is a firm advocate of "dagger-rudders" outside the main hull, attached on the beams, and even though I do not contest the risk of retractable rudders in a trunk, I am not sure this is a more effective solution.

 

I am a "firm advocate" of rudders that can be lifted and steered in shallow water, kick up when they hit something and that are easy to build and maintain.  These attributes are (to me) vitally important for safe sailing and are not available with trunk rudders, crash boxes and daggerboards.    Beam mounted rudders are one solution, side of hull mounted another.  Both work very effectively after some early teething troubles.    I spent yesterday sailing on the latest development harryproa.  It has no rudders at all. 

 

Laurent, on 5th August 2014 said

On the other hand, his push for free standing masts makes sense to me.

 

Thanks.  If you apply the same logic that makes freestanding masts sensible to rudders and weight distribution, you would end up with a boat with a lot of harry attributes. 

Paul Beiker and Russ Brown are clever guys, but I think even they will struggle to fit 4 berths, 2 rudder trunks, 2 unstayed masts and living space in a 45' hull that is light and narrow enough to be fast and have sufficient righting moment to handle a decent sail area.  Judging by the blog of the 32' proa you mention above, i don't think they are on the same page as you cost/time wise, either.

 

Back on topic:  Plans for a 50' harry cost $3,500.  Customising, if it is interesting, I do for nothing.    Plans include everything engineered by a composites engineer and build instructions for the carbon rudders, beams and masts, as well as all the help I can give in terms of low cost materials (eg carbon uni for $20/lb) and building techniques.    

 

By the way.  Many thanks for your translation services on SA.  Hopefully you are around for the RdR in November?

 

rob denney

www.harryproa.com



#48 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,162 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:31 PM

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

IMG_1109.JPG

Can anybody explain the thinking behind the leading edge?



#49 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,162 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 

 

Have i just seen the ghost of Sailing Anarchy past?? :blink:



#50 whispers

whispers

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 217 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:46 PM

Ok I want to jump in here I'm thinking of something similar I'm looking to build a sports boat in my pending retirement, I love the look of the leech and the shaws and I'm looking to do something similar but unique, I have boatbuilding experience with composites but I have an engineering degree not a boatbuilding trade. How open should I find a designer to my ideas and how do I find one that has no qualms to tell me I'm an idiot

#51 whispers

whispers

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 217 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:52 PM

I live in a remote area in aus how hard is it to deal with a designer overseas? And for me the build and design will probably be as interesting as the sailing will I need to go to the designer? Sit down discuss the design? WhT normally happens? A bottle of good red and a pen ?

#52 klkirkman

klkirkman

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:56 PM

I will not argue further  in support of my assertion that the designer should be left to design the yacht, but here are a few of many cautionary tales: a few real life examples that I was hired to investigate which brought me to favor that notion:

 

Owner #1 shamed the designer into reducing the structural weight of a new yacht to half the designers proposed value, and then appointed himself to be the resident supervisor of construction at the building yard, and widely described the boat as his own design. When the yacht disintegrated in the Gulf Stream in her first race, after he was pulled from the liferaft, he sued the shipyard for building a defective boat.

 

Owner # 2  purchased a large yacht partially completed at a yard in Europe and then hired the designer to take this boat, intended for racing, and outfit it fully for comfortable cruising. The yacht ended up floating 18-inches below her DWL - and that only by leaving out almost 40,000  pounds of lead ballast  - and then was too tender to sail safely. 

 

Owner #3 purchased a large wood yacht and directed a designer to lengthen it by about 50% without changing the midship section scantlings. The yacht started to show signs of hull structure failure under sail and split open in the drydock when hauled out for repairs. The owner sued the drydock.

 

Notice a pattern here ?

 

Yes, naval architects have many flaws, and non-naval architects may sometimes design good yachts, but take that risk at your peril.

 

Karl



#53 Ragtime

Ragtime

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 51 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:55 PM

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 

 

Have i just seen the ghost of Sailing Anarchy past?? :blink:

 

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

IMG_1109.JPG

Can anybody explain the thinking behind the leading edge?

 

The thinking is the fins on a humpback whale are optimized for avoiding drag/stall.

 

http://www.gizmag.co...odynamics/9020/



#54 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:04 PM

Owner # 4 got a bunch of granite countertops installed in a butt-ugly powerboat and it capsized when launched.

 

I will not argue further  in support of my assertion that the designer should be left to design the yacht, but here are a few of many cautionary tales: a few real life examples that I was hired to investigate which brought me to favor that notion:

 

Owner #1 shamed the designer into reducing the structural weight of a new yacht to half the designers proposed value, and then appointed himself to be the resident supervisor of construction at the building yard, and widely described the boat as his own design. When the yacht disintegrated in the Gulf Stream in her first race, after he was pulled from the liferaft, he sued the shipyard for building a defective boat.

 

Owner # 2  purchased a large yacht partially completed at a yard in Europe and then hired the designer to take this boat, intended for racing, and outfit it fully for comfortable cruising. The yacht ended up floating 18-inches below her DWL - and that only by leaving out almost 40,000  pounds of lead ballast  - and then was too tender to sail safely. 

 

Owner #3 purchased a large wood yacht and directed a designer to lengthen it by about 50% without changing the midship section scantlings. The yacht started to show signs of hull structure failure under sail and split open in the drydock when hauled out for repairs. The owner sued the drydock.

 

Notice a pattern here ?

 

Yes, naval architects have many flaws, and non-naval architects may sometimes design good yachts, but take that risk at your peril.

 

Karl



#55 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:06 PM

Kind of like mail ordering plans from a stock list of boat designs. You get to round up the local talent to turn plans into a boat. In a remote area I suspect you need to find out what the locals are able to do first and work backwards from there. If no one there has ever built a boat from plans it might be a bit :ph34r:

I live in a remote area in aus how hard is it to deal with a designer overseas? And for me the build and design will probably be as interesting as the sailing will I need to go to the designer? Sit down discuss the design? WhT normally happens? A bottle of good red and a pen ?



#56 SA Lurker

SA Lurker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:24 PM

Give Jim Antrim a call.

http://www.antrimdesign.com/

It'll be an interesting conversation.

 

 ...am dreaming of a about 45ft - low tech to build - "multihull of the third kind".



#57 Royal Flush

Royal Flush

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 91 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:29 PM

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

Can

anybody explain the thinking behind the leading edge?

 

http://perryboat.sai...start-here.html



#58 DDW

DDW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,105 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:38 PM

DDW:

I was walking around your boat the other day. But it was shrouded so I could not get a good look. I think your rudder change is interesting. I would have gone the other way, i.e. leave the leading edge alone and gotten rid of some of that chord. That is the mother of all rudder chords on that short span rudder. But no worries, Jim and Kellan will do a great job on it. I look forward to your report on the mod.

 

Bob, I agree that the chord is pretty long (span can't be increased without hitting the bottom). Shortening the chord would have lowered the hinge moment too, but it seemed less complicated to add some to the nose so the new sections could envelope the old. Shortening the chord would mean cutting the blade away and starting again - in the end maybe that would not be much more expensive.

 

When she is back in the water I will invite you for a sail. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...



#59 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

DDW:

Yes, I realized that my fix was more expensive. But I'm not sure you are not just putting a bandage on a bigger problem with adding to the leading edge. But your way is easy and cheap-er and I hope it works well for you.



#60 gui

gui

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 817 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:53 PM

Regarding cost, another source of inspiration is here:

http://prao.guillard...e.fr/index2.htm

 

I sailed shortly on this boat; in light winds only. It's basically wood, plywood, epoxy and fiberglass, with a few bits of carbon fiber in the most loaded areas. It has been through a lot of modifications and upgrades, and even if it definitely works, there are some areas where you think "well, I would have done that differently..." and that is what I hope to avoid/mitigate with a professional designer. At 63 ft, it is a lot bigger than what I would cope with. But it is cheap, light, and proven. The boat is not new, and has crossed the Atlantic twice.

 

I love that boat! Definitely my style, looks like its built like a work boat, no frou frou BS varnish. I grew up close to Vannes, but left a zillion years ago. I think they launched that boat a year or 2 after I left Bretagne.

It's not like you have many choices:

Brown, Bieker, Harris from clc (that's assuming you have no interest in Rob's Harry proa) and I'm pretty sure you are on the proa-file group, I remember seeing the preliminary design of a 50' proa by? 

Sorry, not much more to offer. But you should definitely go with somebody who has already spent the time thinking about the concept.  



#61 carcrash

carcrash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 737 posts
  • Location:Waikiki Yacht Club

Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:02 PM

Randy Smyth is pretty far out of the box with the boats he has designed.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=7072

He is helping me with my way out of the box boat.

Pete Melvin and Gino Morelli are two others (same firm of course) I have very positive design experience with.

#62 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,361 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:22 PM

Let's say that you want to build a boat (or more accurately, get a boat built) to a design/concept that you cannot find in normal sailboat production...

What you want is enough off the charts that there is nothing out there available even close to what you want. At this stage, you already understand that resale value of what you want will be close to zero... and you don't care.

 

You have some engineering background but you are no yacht designer... So better get help from a pro.

 

So how do you select a yacht designer? How do you approach him? (do you email him; "hi, I want you to design a boat for me, can we talk?"... I don't think so...)

How do you frame a contract/deal so all parties are happy? How do you define the "deliverables" (some sets of drawings could be considered "enough" for the designer, where you are expecting fully detailed construction drawings, etc...). Are there "predefined/preformated contractual agreements?

How do you manage the timeline?

How do you know you are not getting ripped off?...

 

So who could share their experience, good or bad? Without naming names, if you do not want to...

 

I  wrote EXPERIENCE; if you have not been through that process yourself, but only knows someone who knows someone who told him, go away.

 

 

I am looking forward to hearing from the guys (and gals) who have done it.

#1 you find boats designed and built by both good builders and a designer who does stuff you like. You call the designer meet up and have a talk over coffee sorta like a date to see if you like em. Pretty sure Bob does not kiss on the first date! Nor Does Jim Antrim those two are highly respected in the US I mention them because they are on the west coast and have been around the block and have been involved in one way or another with the designs that have made the west coast built boats nearly legendary in the sailing community. I've pondered off and on what it would be like to have Jim or Bob do a boat for me. I've also visited build shops on the West Coast even lifted the first U20 hull out of the Mold at Columbia Yachts in Socal that was cool. I took a peek at the open Class 40 California Condor while it was being built and over seen by Jim Antrim in Berkeley, several of those skilled hands that built that boat are RYC members also who have some very impressive toys that show their skill in building.

 

When you do a one off boat build you want to know about the folks building the boat and the designer. Even my U20 bought used I visited the shop where it was built Ron Moore and later had one of the builders do some work on it he knew the exact boat given it was a special color the only boat they built that color, he knew exactly what product and color code and fixed up some blemishes on the hull and Asym Pole it looked brand new after a little TLC from the original builder. They also tend to fall all over their boats like parents and love to see how the boat is performing and holding up etc.

 

If your going to build your own boat ^ Thats the type of people you want building it they often love the boat more than the owner. Not a bad thing.



#63 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,676 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:48 PM

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 

 

Err.  LR is that you?



#64 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,676 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

call Alan Andrews or Bob Perry.

We called Alan. He did a hell of a job.

 

+1,000 on Alan.  Great NA, great sailor and great person.  Which project is yours?



#65 bgytr

bgytr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,309 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:08 PM

what purpose would there be for building a proa as opposed to a symmetric catamaran for an ocean-going vessel? Is there an operational advantage?

#66 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:19 PM

If so, this is FP news!

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 

 

Err.  LR is that you?



#67 Future MOB

Future MOB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 110 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:26 PM

If you have not figured out yet, go see there:

http://www.biekerboa...roa-it-has.html

and there:

http://proa32.blogsp...8&by-date=false

 

A very preliminary design brief would be:

 - able to sleep 4 comfortably, with accomodations in the line of RV'ing rather than igloo tent camping (difference from design above).

 - preferably schooner rig (I built my own proa, beach multihull style - 20 ft long, and experienced with different rigs, and found the schooner much easier to shunt - that's the equivalent to "tack" for proas when the stern becomes the bow, and vice-versa)

 - fast (significantly above TWS over a wide range of TWA and wind speed - to be discussed more in details with the designer to define what is feasible); VPP for the design above (32 ft) can be found here: http://www.biekerboa...-design-in.html

 - significantly cheaper than a multi (cat or tri) of the same lenght (knowing that we are not truly comparing apple to apple by judging on length)

 - must be capable of true offshore sailing (not a only-nice-weather-inside-the-bay type of boat); the 32ft boat above design brief includes Atlantic crossing, for instance.

 - I don't give a damn about resale value - let's be realistic here, at last....

 

So why a proa?

As I said, I have a small beach one, and I love the concept.

It is in theory the biggest bang for the buck, or in other words, the biggest waterline length for a given displacement for a reasonable price.

 

The designer of the 32 ft above is a respectable yacht designer. He has his own line of monohulls (Riptide) and was part of the design team of the last Oracle AC team (for the appendices, if I am correct). He also worked on modifications on Wild Oats XI. Knowing that someone of his caliper is willing to work on such a concept and produce plans all the way to CNC panels tells me that I am not a total lunatic.

 

 

 

So now, you can cruxify me...

 

Laurent

 

Don't want to hijack, but...

 

Does anyone know if the Bieker Jester Class Proa build is moving forward? Jak hasn't updated the build blog for a while now. I really hope this boat gets built, to me it's pretty close to the perfect boat: fast, simple, and efficient. If I was in your position I would talk to Bieker (and Brown) about scaling/modifying this design. Seems like they already have a lot of time and energy into the project and you would end up with the next evolution of Jzero.  



#68 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,361 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:46 PM

If you have not figured out yet, go see there:

http://www.biekerboa...roa-it-has.html

and there:

http://proa32.blogsp...8&by-date=false

 

A very preliminary design brief would be:

 - able to sleep 4 comfortably, with accomodations in the line of RV'ing rather than igloo tent camping (difference from design above).

 - preferably schooner rig (I built my own proa, beach multihull style - 20 ft long, and experienced with different rigs, and found the schooner much easier to shunt - that's the equivalent to "tack" for proas when the stern becomes the bow, and vice-versa)

 - fast (significantly above TWS over a wide range of TWA and wind speed - to be discussed more in details with the designer to define what is feasible); VPP for the design above (32 ft) can be found here: http://www.biekerboa...-design-in.html

 - significantly cheaper than a multi (cat or tri) of the same lenght (knowing that we are not truly comparing apple to apple by judging on length)

 - must be capable of true offshore sailing (not a only-nice-weather-inside-the-bay type of boat); the 32ft boat above design brief includes Atlantic crossing, for instance.

 - I don't give a damn about resale value - let's be realistic here, at last....

 

So why a proa?

As I said, I have a small beach one, and I love the concept.

It is in theory the biggest bang for the buck, or in other words, the biggest waterline length for a given displacement for a reasonable price.

 

The designer of the 32 ft above is a respectable yacht designer. He has his own line of monohulls (Riptide) and was part of the design team of the last Oracle AC team (for the appendices, if I am correct). He also worked on modifications on Wild Oats XI. Knowing that someone of his caliper is willing to work on such a concept and produce plans all the way to CNC panels tells me that I am not a total lunatic.

 

 

 

So now, you can cruxify me...

 

Laurent

 

Don't want to hijack, but...

 

Does anyone know if the Bieker Jester Class Proa build is moving forward? Jak hasn't updated the build blog for a while now. I really hope this boat gets built, to me it's pretty close to the perfect boat: fast, simple, and efficient. If I was in your position I would talk to Bieker (and Brown) about scaling/modifying this design. Seems like they already have a lot of time and energy into the project and you would end up with the next evolution of Jzero.  

^ no doubt if your into the Proa idea - Bieker and Antrim would be the two I would suggest. Bieker because they have spent time thinking through the idea and Jim because he has a history with doing some pretty wild multi hull rigs.



#69 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,208 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:51 PM

 

Having heaps of experience in this particular area I suggest that you pick the naval architect that you least like and sit on your couch and wait for him to contact you. 

 

Have i just seen the ghost of Sailing Anarchy past?? :blink:

 

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

IMG_1109.JPG

Can anybody explain the thinking behind the leading edge?

 

The thinking is the fins on a humpback whale are optimized for avoiding drag/stall.

 

http://www.gizmag.co...odynamics/9020/

 

 

it needs humpback eyes to avoid the Kelp



#70 bdu98252

bdu98252

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 14 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 05:55 PM

I had always wanted to build my own boat so embarked on finding the kind of boat I wanted to sail first and foremost. I then concluded that a Class 950 would be a good start as it offered good offshore pace for a relatively small 30ft boat. This would allow me to sail the boat shorthanded to more sheltered locations quickly and allow the family to join me for family cruising holidays as they are not likely to ever be into offshore sailing.

 

From looking around the designs the Dibley class 950 design caught my eye as it offered pretty much everything I was looking for in a boat and with the addition of a lifting keel was selected as the best option for a home build. The yacht design with a structural engineer in hand had done most of the design with the view of selling plans to home builders like myself and those enlisting the help of a yard. As a mechanical engineer who designs remote mechanical handling equipment for a living I am able to understand the engineering drawings, manipulate the CAD files and follow the information supplied with a little help with friends in the boat building industry for tips of the trade and ongoing support from the designer.   

 

From going through the process I found that there are a few ways to pay for a yacht design. Try to find a designer who is selling a standard design to a rule or general specification to share the costs of design between others and face the reality that you cannot change the design hugely without incurring additional cost.

 

Pay the designer on a cost plus basis which will give the designer and client maximum flexibility but is likely to be the most expensive option unless the client knowns exactly what they want and can manage the designers time to get to the end of the design without getting significant rework due to client changes.

 

Pay the designer on a fixed cost basis. For this to work they client would need to specify exactly what they want and effectively accept the designers outcome with very little change. If the client is not willing to pay for design change then this quite quickly would become a difficult arrangement and probably end in dispute.

 

In terms of payment if the plans are already there from the designer then they may let you pay in installments and release the drawings to you as you require and as per the drawing schedule matching the payments. I have found this to work quite well from my experience.

 

I find the above rules are pretty transferrable from general engineering. If the client does not know what they want and cannot make decisions in accordance with the general procedure for designing a yacht then things get difficult and expensive quite quickly. Engineers time is expensive and engineers whose time is not expensive are unlikely to take responsibility for their errors.

 

If anyone is interested then you can find my build on Facebook by searching under Dibley Class 950 UK Build.

 

Cheers John

 

 



#71 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,361 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:02 PM

What John said.

 

Also most really good designers will be apprehensive working for a customer who has unrealistic requirements of the boat in question. Those designers know enough to say NO when they see that the potential client simply doesn't know that their budget vs wants is out of whack or their expectations of what can be done in the given design plan is not possible etc.

 

Also an Architect and builder are two different parties not one in the same, skilled and experienced Architects will suggest a builder best suited to do the build based on the design and build method.



#72 DDW

DDW

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,105 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 07:57 PM

DDW:

Yes, I realized that my fix was more expensive. But I'm not sure you are not just putting a bandage on a bigger problem with adding to the leading edge. But your way is easy and cheap-er and I hope it works well for you.

 

I'm pretty confident that my fix will improve the steering effort. You fix would probably do that and lower drag, making a more optimal rudder. One advantage of the low aspect ratio is it is very resistant to stalling, if a little draggy.

 

To keep this from being a total hijack, I will point out that this is one of the examples of something that did not look right to me on paper, I raised the issue with the NA and was told to leave it alone as he knew best. It is one that I did not argue hard enough, and now I am fixing it. 

 

There is no doubt that there are a lot of dreamy, unrealistic, and unknowledgeable prospective owners out there, and I am sure many NAs are tired of dealing with them. I witnessed two such projects going on alongside my own at the two builders. You need to have a good self appraisal of your abilities, and also the fortitude to take responsibility when you make the call and it ends in tears. 



#73 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:15 PM

I start by assuming we can have everything the client dreams of having. Then slowly I whittle away at the concept to arrive at what actually will work. I don't start with limitations. They have a way of presenting themselves as the design progresses. It's the classic design spiral at work.



#74 carcrash

carcrash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 737 posts
  • Location:Waikiki Yacht Club

Posted 05 August 2014 - 09:51 PM

Opinions:

I think that the most important step is yet to be done, and needs to be done before a designer is contracted. This is something you, Laurent, must do. You cannot pay someone to do it for you, and it seems you have not done it yet. You think you have, but once you do this, you will see yourself how far from done you are today.

You need to define your requirements. They are and will always remain contradictory. For example, you have indicated cheap, fast, beachable, ocean going. Since its impossible (for a real project as complicated as a boat) to eliminate the contradictions, you need to prioritize them. For example, if cost is more important than speed, you may decide to reduce speed to decrease cost.

Be sure your requirements include everything you will DO with the boat. For example, on mine, there is an enumerable set of things that must be aboard. These things weigh something, are of certain sizes, and need specific types of access. Something that never seems well enough addressed is the dinghies. Getting in and out of the water. Cooking without barfing. Pretty basic stuff. Make sure you consider them, and lots and lots and lots of other things. Keep track of the total weight, and "chunks" of volumes (sail stowage, clothes, dishes, dinghy, rode, ...). The weight of stuff you need -- payload -- has a huge impact on everything else.

Now, be sure you understand factors that actually contribute to any of your requirements. Most people do not, even designers. For example, many, many people think shape is very important to speed, but its not anywhere near as important as weight. Many people think flat shapes, developable shapes are cheaper to build. I have talked to a lot of builders, good builders of high quality boats of many different materials, and every single one said the same thing: when they do cost projections to build a boat, none of their cost models include any factor for shape. Meanwhile, stress has a huge impact on weight and cost, especially stress related to stability, such as with any multihull, or deep bulb keel. Weight also increases stress, so its a bad cycle...

So talk to builders! Many of them, who build boats out of material you actually would choose if cost was not an object. You will be surprised what costs, what does not. I went the gamut, including steel, aluminum, plywood, cold molded wood, glass, carbon. One-off custom foam, e-glass, and vinyl ester won hands down by a large margin. Only Then you will have the ability to budget build costs. Because you have a bidget, just as everyone has a budget. Know what fits.

THEN perform trade studies to select between options. Consider all possibilities. Don't overly respect your preconceived ideas.

Only after you do so are you ready to start paying someone to design, engineer, and build.

#75 fastyacht

fastyacht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,288 posts

Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:15 PM

" I have talked to a lot of builders, good builders of high quality boats of many different materials, and every single one said the same thing: when they do cost projections to build a boat, none of their cost models include any factor for shape."

In the commercial world, if you come with a design that has developed surfaces and no deck camber and no sheer, and then during the contract phase you say, "I think we need some camber" the yard will essentially reply, "that will cost you significant additional."  HOWEVER, if you come with a design with camber and then after you go to contract discussions, and say, "what if we eliminate the camber and sheer?" the yard will reply, "won't make much difference at all to the cost."

 

Haha.



#76 One eye Jack

One eye Jack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,186 posts
  • Location:Reno,Nv. San Francisco Bay , Santa Cruz,Ca. Tahoe,Nv
  • Interests:Sailing. I shot a man in Reno.. Just to watch him die..

Posted 05 August 2014 - 10:32 PM

First you need to figure out what kind of boat you need, whether just for cruising, and that's it, just for racing, or what would you want.. There are many designers around the world.. See who might fit your requirements best.. Most heavy cruising designers don't know a lot about ULDB..and the opposite. Then take some time and write up what you want.. Let's say I want a 33 ft boat with as long water line as possible, 10 ft wide, open transom, aluminum mast and boom double spreader, pipe berth interior, weight about 3000 lbs.. Or what ever.. But lay out everything that you want.. Think of other boats and put in things that you liked about it.. Like , have the bow like an express 27 where it has check bone and not a battle ship bow like a olson 30. Etc.. Then if you don't know what designer to use.. Send them , email, fax whatever to them and see what you get back from them. I know when I wanted my boat designed.. I already knew who I wanted.. So it was easy for me. Then after you get answers back look at just which one and you are on the same page in your thinking... Then after you get your designs, finding a builder.. Is the next challenge .. Again you both need to be on the same page with what you want.. Alway be totally open to new ideas, and be able to have all of your ducks in a row if needed for a hearty discussion .. For example.. My designer wanted a carbon mast.. What made my decision was reading on different web sites with carbon over aluminum.. And a mast builder that I've known for many years. He told me that when you loose a mast, the insurance will only pay for aluminum.. So that was a long discussion over that. And after all of the discussion ... You get a design and a boat that is YOU. Also when you have a sit down with your designer.. Try to not change your mind after the first drawing come in, so know exactly what you want as your charged by the hour. For those changes.. So if you want seats, or a big cockpit try to get it done on the first time... Best of luck...and enjoy your new boat.

#77 GreatDane28

GreatDane28

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Dream City, WA
  • Interests:fair and fast - boatbuilding - rigging - hiking, biking - round, firm, & fun - http://packardgoose.tumblr.com/

Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:42 PM

Paul and Russel work together.

If you're looking for a proa, definitely get in touch with both of these guys - I have worked with Russell and he is a real ace, and he sure knows his way around a proa.  I haven't worked with Paul (even though he's just up the street) but i have seen a lot of his work, & he's a real whiz.

 

& what about builders? West coast/east coast (I know Brooklin/Rockport in Maine have been mentioned)...Any idea what kind of construction you'd prefer? Foam composite, wood composite, solid FRP, etc?



#78 solo bird

solo bird

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Location:vancouver canada
  • Interests:SCOTW or equivalent. Art history and fine art - spectating only- and sailing.

Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:06 AM

The issues start with the form of contract. I have found several NAs require indemnity provisions which are insane. If the boat is involved in an accident, the legal bills for the NA's defence will kill you.

Second, do you really know what you want? Decide which races are important, then provide the wind and sea state data over a reasonable period of time so the NA can frame his ideas accordingly.

Thirdly, budget. Carbon fibre hull? E-glass and epoxy or vinylester? Carbon spars and rigging or aluminium and stainless rod or wire

What size crew do you want? This is getting more important as many of us aging boomers are opting for short handed.

Finally - do you really care about resale value?

It goes without saying, that if there are any particular requirements for an important race - water tank size, ORC standards, whatever they should be laid out at first.

 

I suspect most anarchist are well aware of whose boats are doing well. That may not be the most important criteria, but you would be less than human to ignore them

 

 

David



#79 Tanton Yacht Design

Tanton Yacht Design

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 438 posts
  • Location:Newport R.I
  • Interests:To Never Quit.

Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:34 AM

Select : Go with your impression for what you are looking for. Google.

Contract:: Fair way to everyone. Go on an hourly rate, until the project can be quoted on. Then, should not go over 5-10 % of the building cost.



#80 bigrpowr

bigrpowr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 147 posts
  • Location:moorpark
  • Interests:big horsepower

Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:35 AM

Hitchhiker, on 05 Aug 2014 - 09:58, said:


bigrpowr, on 02 Aug 2014 - 23:01, said:
call Alan Andrews or Bob Perry.

We called Alan. He did a hell of a job.


+1,000 on Alan. Great NA, great sailor and great person. Which project is yours?

it was a 56 named aldora, now flying the name delicate balance . was built for early IMS days, with a hard emphasis on creature comforts , in 1992 . the boat sailed in the heavy well above its rating and did VERY well distance racing. I don't remember ever doing well around the cans though. iirc we won first in class and overall to cabo nearly beating the turbo sleds of that period, and won first monohull elapsed time to Ensenada one year. all early 90's until my dad found the Caribbean and scuba diving. the boat got sold shortly after.

#81 Laurent

Laurent

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts
  • Location:Singapore

Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:30 AM

Wow! I made the front page!!!

 

Thanks Mr. Editor for the spot light, and it added another few dozens valuable answers...

 

And thanks to all for your insight. And staying on topic.

 

Yes, I know, I have to do more homework on what I want... I have a better idea of what I want than what was posted, but not everything is ironed out enough yet. For instance, I have been gathering information on the few real proas out there to seen trends on major design parameters, such as Displacement to Length Ratio, Sail Area to Displacement ratio, etc, to shoot for something realistic. One of the things I still have a lot of home work to do is payload. I have an idea of how many people on board for how long; I also know that I am not into scuba diving or windsurfing (heavy and/or bulky toys on a light multihull), but there is still a lot to list and evaluate on that topic. I need to do more homework, before I go to a NA. Your feedback helped me assess what is missing. And yes, the uploading/offloading and storing of the dinghy is a headacke for now...

 

 

Now a bit of proa promotion...

bgytr (post # 65) asked:

what purpose would there be for building a proa as opposed to a symmetric catamaran for an ocean-going vessel? Is there an operational advantage?

 

The way I see it, there are some potential design advantages; but there is a definitive resale value disadvantage for the proa.

BUT:

As I said earlier, there is in theory a bigger bang for the buck. As someone else pointed out; loads and stresses are important in the cost of the boat. For a catamaran, the compression loads of the mast mean that your main beam must be stronger: more complex structures, more material, longer to build, so more expensive...

A pacific proa has virtually no compression load. If you have shrouds to windward to the ama, you almost achieve perfect tensigrity; everything is in compression or tension (not totally true for the mast). The aerodynamic forces heel the mast, that pull on the shroud that lift the ama, that generate righting moment by having its weight so much to windward... The loads on the beams are minimal.

Because the loads are lower, you can build lighter; or for a given displacement, a longer mainhull, which should lead to higher sustained average speed...

 

Now what if you are caught aback? You actually tacked, and the wind is coming from the wrong direction. Your structure (and your rigging) must be strong enough to take that "one time load", for sure, or your sheeting system / sail plan set up ensures that you immediately/automatically depower everything in that case.

 

 

Regarding the operational advantages/disadvantages...

It is definitely different than on other boats. Your boom(s) swing(s) close to 180° from one tack to the other when close hauled...

BUT

You don't make "sharp" 90° turns for tacking; you can have a really long, narrow mainhull with no rocker that tracks like a train.

You can completely depower the rig on ALL point of sail: just let the sheet go! On the leeside, there is no shrouds in the way; you can let the mainsail weather vane as long as you wish. This is also an advantage when something is wrong and you need to "park it". If you have a dagger board in the ama (like Russel Brown's boats for instance), with the board down and the main sheet released, you end up in a "beam to the wind" position with the boat going to nowhere. As long as you are not in breaking seas, that's ok....

 

So for given displacement, you can end up with a longer boat (better average performance), accomodations will somewhat suffer, a bit in volume, but more so in layout (long narrow hull), unless you go with a Harryproa. Or have deck accomodations like Gaia's Dream after modification:

http://www.pacificproa.nl/dream.htm

You can see a shunt there:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iS270ousYwg

And with added "windward pod" here:

http://pacificproa.nl/news.htm



#82 gbz

gbz

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:56 AM

Your idea of what boat you want to build will evolve as the specification/design process proceeds. It is therefore important to work with someone who will be flexible and patient enough to educate you to some extend about the various features/options you want to incorporate. I went through this process in 2007 and although I did not start with a totally blank sheet of paper the starting design we used got modified a lot over the next 6 months. My only spec was to have a ocean going sail boat that can easily handle bumpy conditions, large swell and strong breeze. I have raced her for the last 7 years on the east coast of Australia, going to Hobart and Lord Howe island multiple times.  i suggest you have a chat to Graham Radford of Radford Yachts, email him with your questions as a starting point. He has done some great designs both in the racing and cruising space and he will be only too happy to guide you through the process.



#83 rantifarian

rantifarian

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 708 posts
  • Location:Central Queensland

Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:10 AM

Ok I want to jump in here I'm thinking of something similar I'm looking to build a sports boat in my pending retirement, I love the look of the leech and the shaws and I'm looking to do something similar but unique, I have boatbuilding experience with composites but I have an engineering degree not a boatbuilding trade. How open should I find a designer to my ideas and how do I find one that has no qualms to tell me I'm an idiot

Why not talk to Leech, Shaw, Elliot? All three know their way around sportsboat design



#84 sow1ld

sow1ld

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 27 posts
  • Location:mana new zealand
  • Interests:Yachts yachting yacht design

Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:33 AM

Icon awsome boat. I was part of the build team at Marten yachts NZ. Then I helped tune her up, deliver her across the tazzie and did Hamilton Islands regatta.
We got a bit of a hiding in the tazman wet and wild with a dash of Holy shit mixed in aswell!
Best memory getting line honours against the W60, grundig the open 60 & Brindabella :) oh and cracking 28 knots

Icon awsome boat. I was part of the build team at Marten yachts NZ. Then I helped tune her up, deliver her across the tazzie and did Hamilton Islands regatta.
We got a bit of a hiding in the tazman wet and wild with a dash of Holy shit mixed in aswell!
Best memory getting line honours against the W60, grundig the open 60 & Brindabella :) oh and cracking 28 knots

#85 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,162 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:19 AM

 

+1 with Paul Bieker. A very innovator thinker. Always thinking "out the box". Not afraid to put it out there. But that's what you are describing. Try Icon's new rudder.

 

 

Can

anybody explain the thinking behind the leading

edge?

http://perryboat.sai...start-here.html

 

Thanks



#86 harryproa

harryproa

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 413 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:01 AM

Now a bit of proa promotion...

bgytr (post # 65) asked:

what purpose would there be for building a proa as opposed to a symmetric catamaran for an ocean-going vessel? Is there an operational advantage?

 

there is in theory a bigger bang for the buck. As someone else pointed out; loads and stresses are important in the cost of the boat. For a catamaran, the compression loads of the mast mean that your main beam must be stronger: more complex structures, more material, longer to build, so more expensive...

A pacific proa has virtually no compression load. If you have shrouds to windward to the ama, you almost achieve perfect tensigrity; everything is in compression or tension (not totally true for the mast). The aerodynamic forces heel the mast, that pull on the shroud that lift the ama, that generate righting moment by having its weight so much to windward... The loads on the beams are minimal.

Because the loads are lower, you can build lighter; or for a given displacement, a longer mainhull, which should lead to higher sustained average speed...

 

Now what if you are caught aback? You actually tacked, and the wind is coming from the wrong direction. Your structure (and your rigging) must be strong enough to take that "one time load", for sure, or your sheeting system / sail plan set up ensures that you immediately/automatically depower everything in that case.

 

Regarding the operational advantages/disadvantages...

It is definitely different than on other boats. Your boom(s) swing(s) close to 180° from one tack to the other when close hauled...

BUT

You don't make "sharp" 90° turns for tacking; you can have a really long, narrow mainhull with no rocker that tracks like a train.

You can completely depower the rig on ALL point of sail: just let the sheet go! On the leeside, there is no shrouds in the way; you can let the mainsail weather vane as long as you wish. This is also an advantage when something is wrong and you need to "park it". If you have a dagger board in the ama (like Russel Brown's boats for instance), with the board down and the main sheet released, you end up in a "beam to the wind" position with the boat going to nowhere. As long as you are not in breaking seas, that's ok....

 

So for given displacement, you can end up with a longer boat (better average performance), accomodations will somewhat suffer, a bit in volume, but more so in layout (long narrow hull), unless you go with a Harryproa.

 

Gaia's Dream after modification:

http://www.pacificproa.nl/dream.htm

You can see a shunt there:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iS270ousYwg

 

Laurent,

That is a the second worst shunting video on the web!   Not a very good "proa promotion".    13 minutes into https://www.youtube....tyqI2aJlo#t=825 shows how it should be done.    This is the 2 ton 50' harryproa designed 12 years ago to take blind and disabled people sailing in Holland.   It has the rudders Laurent referred to, which have since been much improved.  Earlier in the video there are some slower shunts, but they are all first time sailors, apart from the skipper. 

 

Beams: You must design the beams for other loads.      Including: the ww hull hitting the water after an emergency sheet dump from a near capsize, hitting something solid with one hull, getting caught aback and the "immediately/automatically depower" not working, twisting loads from cross seas,  weight on the bridge deck/trampoline,  the large shock loads from a partially stayed mast and the also large bending loads from a daggerboard in the windward hull.      Once these loads are taken into consideration, a beam with a stayed mast weighs near enough the same as one without.  On a pacific proa,  the caught aback loads involve lifting the hull with 75% of the boat's weight, so they must be stronger than a harry's which only lifts 60%.   

A stayed beam and a partially stayed mast will provide all the worst features of both.     

 

Rockerless hulls are an original harry feature and are better than the conventional rockered proa hulls, but they are not ideal for various reasons and we have made some adjustments, while retaining the ease of build and most of the tracking capability.  

 

A well designed proa lies ahull with the windward hull to windward without a daggerboard and all the strife that occurs when it hits something hard.  

 

bgytr

Most of the operational benefits described apply to an unstayed mast on any boat.  Areas where a proa is different to a symmetric cat are:

1) Because you shunt, you do not have to pass through the eye of the wind.  Hence it is a much more controlled operation than tacking or gybing.  It is far safer as you can change your mind at any time and do not have to worry about hitting waves and getting caught in irons during a tack or surfing out of control during a gybe.  These are heavy weather safety considerations.Shunting is a little slower than tacking, considerably slower than gybing.

2) Apart from sailing down wind, a shunt will put you on your reverse course.  This means you get back to a man overboard in seconds rather than minutes.  The unstayed mast then allows you to stop on a dime to pick him up.

3) You don't need to change sides. The crew is always on the drier, more comfortable windward side, away from the rig, with better visibility and shelter.   This only applies to a harry.  Other proas sit the crew to leeward, not sure why.  

4) For a given length, a proa will be lighter (ref the 2 ton 50'ter in the video and the half ton 50' racing one in my previous post),  so the loads are lower.  This makes everything much easier to handle.  eg, the race proa only requires one #16 single speed winch.

5) Headsails are a pain as they have to be removed each time you shunt.  Harrys get round this with the balanced rig on the above boat, mainsail only schooners or very large mainsails on the racers.  These work as the unstayed mast bends in gusts, but the mast engineering to achieve this at the right windspeed is not trivial.

 

Other than these, a proa is sailed the same as a conventional cat. 

 

rob



#87 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,926 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:48 PM

billy backstay, that is NOT what I said; so read my post #25 again.

 

Sorry Laurent, my use of the term, "Beach Cat" was a misnomer for your concept. 

 

OTOH, when you have fallen off 40 foot waves with ten feet of breaking water on the wave tops in 80+ knots of breeze in the North Atlantic in December, your concept of "ocean going" takes on new meaning.  The Golfcart 50 got us as far as the Azores nevertheless, bent rudder, blown out portlights and cracked bulkheads notwithstanding.

 

Not sure your "concept" boat would be up to the task, was all I was saying...



#88 Alpha FB

Alpha FB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,016 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:57 PM

What the hell were you doing in the middle of the North Atlantic in December?

 

Bit of a masochist are you? :blink:



#89 billy backstay

billy backstay

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,926 posts
  • Location:Etchells fleet 24..Long River meets the Sound....
  • Interests:boats, cars, girls....

Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:59 PM

What the hell were you doing in the middle of the North Atlantic in December?

 

Bit of a masochist are you? :blink:

 

It was '79; paid delivery, I was 24 yo, Mate/Cook. We got a delayed start.  Azores were great!  Never made it to France, our initial destination.



#90 kimbottles

kimbottles

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,719 posts
  • Location:PNW
  • Interests:SWMBO

Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:50 PM

I have extensive experience with Bob Perry and Russell Brown on the four year long Sliver project (now known by her real name: FRANCIS LEE.)

 

They are both golden, very knowledgeable and very easy to work with.

 

They were both worth everything I paid them and much more.

 

You would not go wrong hiring either of them.



#91 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:34 PM

Thanks Kim but this project is not one I would be interested in. I don't think I bring anything to the table when it comes to proa design. When  I start a new design I like to think that I can do this new boat better than anyone else.

I have never sailed a proa.

But I sure do like the music.

 

I'm wondering why a guy with such big ideas can't figure out by himself how to take the first step. Most of my clients, like yourself Kim, have done enough custom projects of one kind or another in their life to know the first steps in the sequence. I don't understand the mystery. I do believe I'll call BS on this one. And now I will walk my dogs.



#92 Older Lesbian Robot

Older Lesbian Robot

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Location:Newport

Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

Bob is being rude. I don't think it is bullshit whatsoever. Laurent, as I suggested earlier, just sit back on your couch and one of us will contact you shortly. 



#93 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:47 PM

Don't want to be a downer, but you seem to emphasize cost of construction advantages in what is likely to be a very expensive project with poor resale value at best. Are you SURE you want to do this?



#94 kent_island_sailor

kent_island_sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,538 posts
  • Location:Kent Island!

Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:50 PM

 I had ZERO clue about dealing with NAs. I had never even met one that I knew of. It isn't something most people do. When I needed drawings and a stability study for a steel powerboat project I thought about who did that kind of thing and looked up the local guy who designed steel boats and called him. Worked out fine, but I can see how people would be clueless. We did strictly dollars for drawings, no % deal or anything.

Thanks Kim but this project is not one I would be interested in. I don't think I bring anything to the table when it comes to proa design. When  I start a new design I like to think that I can do this new boat better than anyone else.

I have never sailed a proa.

But I sure do like the music.

 

I'm wondering why a guy with such big ideas can't figure out by himself how to take the first step. Most of my clients, like yourself Kim, have done enough custom projects of one kind or another in their life to know the first steps in the sequence. I don't understand the mystery. I do believe I'll call BS on this one. And now I will walk my dogs.



#95 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,361 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:12 PM

Thanks Kim but this project is not one I would be interested in. I don't think I bring anything to the table when it comes to proa design. When  I start a new design I like to think that I can do this new boat better than anyone else.

I have never sailed a proa.

But I sure do like the music.

 

I'm wondering why a guy with such big ideas can't figure out by himself how to take the first step. Most of my clients, like yourself Kim, have done enough custom projects of one kind or another in their life to know the first steps in the sequence. I don't understand the mystery. I do believe I'll call BS on this one. And now I will walk my dogs.

 

Any time I see a forum post thats like the OP's its typically driven by a big lack of knowledge even regarding the initial leg work that the person can do on their own. Given the $$$$ involved in such a project it does suggest that the OP is either way way out there or is very much lacking in basic knowledge that would be needed to pull off such a project.



#96 Bob Perry

Bob Perry

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,244 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:29 PM

Me?

Rude?

Now there's a first.



#97 MauiPunter

MauiPunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 518 posts
  • Location:Maui, Las Vegas, Boston
  • Interests:sailing, surfing, windsurfing, scuba diving, soccer, and poker.

Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:28 PM

Bob, can you design me a beer barge pontoon boat?  :P



#98 ProaSailor

ProaSailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Location:Hanalei, Kauai, Hawaii

Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:23 PM

Thanks Kim but this project is not one I would be interested in. I don't think I bring anything to the table when it comes to proa design. When  I start a new design I like to think that I can do this new boat better than anyone else.

I have never sailed a proa.

But I sure do like the music.

 

I'm wondering why a guy with such big ideas can't figure out by himself how to take the first step. Most of my clients, like yourself Kim, have done enough custom projects of one kind or another in their life to know the first steps in the sequence. I don't understand the mystery. I do believe I'll call BS on this one. And now I will walk my dogs.

 

Any time I see a forum post thats like the OP's its typically driven by a big lack of knowledge even regarding the initial leg work that the person can do on their own. Given the $$$$ involved in such a project it does suggest that the OP is either way way out there or is very much lacking in basic knowledge that would be needed to pull off such a project.

 

Both of these comments sound weirdly out of line to me, perhaps because I'm slightly familiar with Laurent's history, knowledge and experience building and sailing a respectable small proa:

 

http://wikiproa.pbwo...rent's boat.png

 

Laurent%27s%20boat.png

 

leaning%20on%20Laurents%20boat%20messabo

 

His question about how to work with a NA for a larger boat is a legitimate one.  Why the harsh judgement?



#99 mad

mad

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,162 posts

Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:43 PM

Maybe its time the OP hire a project manager with good offshore multi build and sailing skills.

At least he can arrange trial sails on similar sized multis with some offshore miles. At the same time they can see yards, designers and owners and see first hand what works and what doesn't.
Jeez, they might even enjoy it and discuss ideas over a good meal.......and xxxx bottles of wine.

Just an idea

#100 Lat21

Lat21

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 247 posts
  • Location:Pacific NW

Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:48 PM

I am in the middle of a design/build process right now. Coincidentally, with Paul Bieker and team.  I have owned several racing monohulls but decided I wanted a fast catamaran so it could be sailed fast and still have reasonable cruising comforts. I want to be able to cruise the Caribbean and race in some of the Caribbean regattas with with blazing speed. I looked at several existing designs like the Gunboats and the MC53 design. I’m sure these are great boats but I decided I didn't need the giant galleys and interior space of these designs and I wanted it lighter and more performance oriented.  

 

About 10 months ago I approached Paul Bieker with idea of creating a 50’ ultra-light, fast catamaran. I knew Paul from sailing in Seattle and he is always pushing the limits of conventional thinking. He had been working on foil design for the Oracle AC campaign but he was very interested in doing a fast multihull. He started design work last November and engaged several experts to assist in hydrodynamic modeling and VPP. He came up with several unique elements to reduce windage and weight and help achieve the performance goals while still providing the basic cruising amenities we wanted. He modeled 4 hull designs and different rig sizes before finding the right combination that would be reasonably fast in lighter air, yet still keep the bows up when pressed hard off the wind.

 

Construction has just started at Gold Coast Yachts in St Croix. Paul is now heavily immersed in the next AC program but is still very involved in monitoring the construction process, materials & rig design. It has been a fun process and I am excited to see the boat take shape. 

 

The contract with Paul is a fixed fee for each of three phases. Basic concept for X dollars, detailed drawings for Y dollars, fully engineered build drawings and construction monitoring for Z dollars. It is being built all carbon and ended up at 53 feet so it is not cheap. But it will weigh in around 14,000 lbs versus 27,000 lbs for a Gunboat 55. The Gunboat will have a lot more space and amenities but my current boat is a J-125 so the B53 will be luxurious by comparison with 2 double staterooms, 2 single berths, 2 heads and a full galley with fridge and freezer. She will be sailing by spring time next year.

 

Advice to the OP: If you are serious, just call or email anyone familiar with proa design and start asking questions.  Budget will be a major issue and designers have a good handle on construction costs using various techniques and materials. They can get you a rough number pretty quickly. If budget becomes the big constraint, start shopping for a used boat. It will be dramatically less expensive.

 

gallery_7845_668_1782.jpg






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users