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#1 Par Avion

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:13 AM

Snagged from an email thingy I'm in. Apparently It was taken during the recent Santa Barbara to King Harbor Race. It seems that the boat is owned by a Gary Green from DRYC.  From the internet, it seems that they were looking for paid crew, or something like that.


Here's an ad posted prior to the race.

 

"Green Dragon 2" is a Beneteau First 44.7 berthed in Marina del Rey, California. We have a full sail inventory and race PHRF in local weeknight, random leg and mid-distance races. Looking for a crew manager to organize crew, serve as tactician and as relief driver on longer races. Substantial, recent experience racing 40+ boats in competitive Southern California venues sought. Compensation negotiable, depending on duration of each race. Travel costs available for distance races. 

 

Grab some popcorn and enjoy. 

 



#2 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:19 AM

Umm - so you hit a boat and .. You tell your trimmer to trim were getting the hell out of here? What the heck? That B boat is gone!



#3 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:11 AM

Very interesting!

#4 Grrr...

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:20 AM

Damn.

 

However, consider that there are no 'training wheels' for sailboats.  You buy one and you end up out on a course with a limited knowledge of the rules and how you should act.  A lot of us had the opportunity to learn young - I damaged my share of dinghies way back when.  But for adults with money who want to get into the sport, even a 6 week 'learn the rules' seminar isn't going to give them the experience they need.

 

You've really got two options.  First, lambaste the guy, embarrass him, and generally make him feel like other sailors are a bunch of shitheads.  Or, find him after the regatta and discuss it with him and find out how he's going to make things right.  He may be the nicest guy in the world who simply doesn't have the experience or knowledge of how to sail.

 

*shrug*

 

SA constantly bitches about dying fleets, disappearing racers, and the like.  He's out there trying.  Give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

 

Now I'll wait for the assholery to begin.



#5 Clove Hitch

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:35 AM

I wonder how the protest went.



#6 soliton

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:49 AM

Both boats were DNF.



#7 Veeger

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:59 AM

So I see idiots on both boats.  Lesseee here.... B Boat can't figure out how to keep a look out and even find out whether there were injuries  or to say, "Gee, I'm saweee"

 

Boat with the sore ass is dragging shit in the water and the helmsman doesn't have a clue nor seem to care.  He's still driving down the course.  "Hey, ya gonna get your EPIRB?" says the crew.   Whaa-a-at??? Ya mean we got sumpin in the water???  Yeah, like your whole stern pulpit, Oscar flag et al.  

 

Hey doood, wakey-wakey.

 

It's actually classic for many boaters.  In both cases, the driver just holds on and acts like nothing happened.  Yup, that'll solve everything.

 

Boat names please.  Skippers names please.   It's a safety thing.  NO ONE should sail with either of them!

 

(But then, this won't be my problem)

 

Then again, the comment about declining race participation etc,  Do you REALLY think I'm going to put my boat on a course populated with 'those-who-have-no clue' ??????



#8 fastyacht

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:43 AM

We don't see the lead-up to this crash.



#9 SCANAS

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:55 AM

Shit happens. No one died. Exchange insurance and move on people, nothing to see.

#10 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:40 AM

I'd like to see about 30 seconds to a minute before the impact to see the lead up



#11 andyxs

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:51 AM

as the phrase goes Rubbin is racing. And I would like to see before hand as well as it seems odd that they have edited it to start where it starts, you can hear them saying "that guy would not come up" seems like they tried to luff him and he thought he could get through. Pole is well forwards as well so they were tight before hand.



#12 Remodel

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:01 PM

Looks like a classic port/starboard situation to me, but I agree, we need to see more footage.



#13 soliton

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:06 PM

Looks like a classic port/starboard situation to me, but I agree, we need to see more footage.

?  Both boats were on port.  To me it was a classic overtaking boat failing to keep clear.  From the comment coming from the Bene, I assume that they had been trying to get past the Cal for a while.  Nothing justifies what happened and if they had any knowledge of the rules and basic protocol, they would have immediately dropped their spin and stood by ready to render assistance.



#14 CrushDigital

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

Geeze, I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.  Frankly there was barely any damage, it seemed more jarring mostly because the video starts right as the collision happens.

 

Nothing was bruised except for egos, time to move on.



#15 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:12 PM

Looks like a classic port/starboard situation to me, but I agree, we need to see more footage.

?  Both boats were on port.  To me it was a classic overtaking boat failing to keep clear.  From the comment coming from the Bene, I assume that they had been trying to get past the Cal for a while.  Nothing justifies what happened and if they had any knowledge of the rules and basic protocol, they would have immediately dropped their spin and stood by ready to render assistance.

+1

 

In that breeze there is no reason to ever hit another boat putzing along downhill like that. Pretty fuck stupid.



#16 Gone Drinking

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:19 PM

Barely any damage?????  The whole stern pulpit is ripped off.



#17 Canal Bottom

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:35 PM

Maybe he got what he paid for... was that the new hired help calling the tactics?

 

"Shared contribution (max £25 / €30 / $35 per day)"



#18 blackjenner

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:44 PM

So, like, why don't you stop and see if anyone is injured or if the boat you just struck requires assistance?



#19 Lex Teredo

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:57 PM

Huh.  That's an interesting new way to deploy a Lifesling.  Don't recall reading that one in the owner's manual.



#20 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:58 PM

Would be a whole different story had the boat that got rammed been holed and started taking on water. The 47.7 just sailing off and not standing by to make sure everyone was OK and that the rig wasn't coming down on either boat or worse is just an example of someone that needs to go back to riding PWC's and should be asked to leave the racing scene.

 

Regardless of what took place before impact we all know who it was and I'm sure it will be hard for that guy to get crew or race in the future. Had I been on the B boat I would have dropped the kite on my own and told the owner to go to his room or take a swim. My reputation as crew and my sailing resume is not worth messing up because of a owner that operates like that. Owner assaults me because he doesn't want to stand by or drop out will be getting assault charges filed against him by his own crew and still probably take a swimming lesson.



#21 smackdaddy

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:29 PM

Damn.

 

However, consider that there are no 'training wheels' for sailboats.  You buy one and you end up out on a course with a limited knowledge of the rules and how you should act.  A lot of us had the opportunity to learn young - I damaged my share of dinghies way back when.  But for adults with money who want to get into the sport, even a 6 week 'learn the rules' seminar isn't going to give them the experience they need.

 

You've really got two options.  First, lambaste the guy, embarrass him, and generally make him feel like other sailors are a bunch of shitheads.  Or, find him after the regatta and discuss it with him and find out how he's going to make things right.  He may be the nicest guy in the world who simply doesn't have the experience or knowledge of how to sail.

 

*shrug*

 

SA constantly bitches about dying fleets, disappearing racers, and the like.  He's out there trying.  Give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

 

Now I'll wait for the assholery to begin.

 

The nicest guy in the world usually doesn't trim the kite and keep going.



#22 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:05 PM

Damn.

 

However, consider that there are no 'training wheels' for sailboats.  You buy one and you end up out on a course with a limited knowledge of the rules and how you should act.  A lot of us had the opportunity to learn young - I damaged my share of dinghies way back when.  But for adults with money who want to get into the sport, even a 6 week 'learn the rules' seminar isn't going to give them the experience they need.

 

You've really got two options.  First, lambaste the guy, embarrass him, and generally make him feel like other sailors are a bunch of shitheads.  Or, find him after the regatta and discuss it with him and find out how he's going to make things right.  He may be the nicest guy in the world who simply doesn't have the experience or knowledge of how to sail.

 

*shrug*

 

SA constantly bitches about dying fleets, disappearing racers, and the like.  He's out there trying.  Give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

 

Now I'll wait for the assholery to begin.

 

The nicest guy in the world usually doesn't trim the kite and keep going.

Yep

The boat needs to get banned from the series there is no room even on the Pacific Ocean for that sort of BS. Also the crew on the boat if they are all pick up crew and newbies need to told that is not how collisions are handled. Its also the responsibility of the crew to let the owner know when something is not acceptable.



#23 bhyde

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:35 PM

I'd like to see what happened 30 seconds before the video starts. In the first frame, it seems like the wake of the Cal is to leeward of the Bene. One of the guys says "he didn't come up," so there must have been an overlap at some point. 

 

Still, in those conditions there is no reason to get that close. Idiot move.



#24 Timo42

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:52 PM

Whole lot of ocean to be playing games in, no reason to get that close on a distance race.



#25 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:53 PM

Whole lot of ocean to be playing games in, no reason to get that close on a distance race.

Not to mention you hit someone on the ocean its a long swim home. You need to stand by till everything is sorted.



#26 Timo42

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:02 PM

Whole lot of ocean to be playing games in, no reason to get that close on a distance race.

Not to mention you hit someone on the ocean its a long swim home. You need to stand by till everything is sorted.

 

Not corinthian at all... <_<



#27 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:07 PM

Pretty sure it could be considered criminal also. Hit and run is Hit and run regardless of what mode of transportation your on.



#28 Shaggy

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:10 PM

In the SB to KH race do they post results??  Protests??  Where is the rest of the video and why did they pull out the camera in the first place??  Was it one of those conversations like, "Hey bob, look at this asshole coming up behind.  Getting kind of close.  Better get the carmera...."?  or was it more like, "Hey bob, hold my beer and get the camera...  Watch this...."?



#29 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:20 PM

In the SB to KH race do they post results??  Protests??  Where is the rest of the video and why did they pull out the camera in the first place??  Was it one of those conversations like, "Hey bob, look at this asshole coming up behind.  Getting kind of close.  Better get the carmera...."?  or was it more like, "Hey bob, hold my beer and get the camera...  Watch this...."?

 

Protest would look at video evidence as only part of the story. The CAL didn't have a kite or head sail at least not that I could see. Pretty sure lots of talk would happen and interviews of crew. Typical protest room sort of thing. Regardless due to the collision the B boat should have stayed on station dropped the kite, checked for damage and made sure the other boat was OK before continuing on regardless of who did what.

 

What if the B boat dropped its rig down the course after the collision and killed one if its crew? Owner F'ed up on multiple levels regarding proper handling of a collision.



#30 soliton

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 06:36 PM

The Cal definitely had a kite up.  Look at :50 and beyond.  You can see a reaching strut rigged and a crewmember sitting on the collected chute.  Both boats scored DNF so with a little benefit of the doubt, I hope the Bene came to their senses, dropped out, and returned to the crime scene. 



#31 univers

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:12 PM

I'd be curious if the infringed boat had overlap prior to the incident or if she was in fact clear ahead. Either way if we had a little more video before the incident it could be possible that this is a 14.1 situation where the rear-ended boat made a course adjustment to run hot, but did not give adequate opportunity for Boat B "Green Dragon" to respond. You can't tell with this because the maneuver and incident is already in play.

 

Bummer situation.



#32 Sol No-Ebola Rosenberg

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:36 PM

Put the new stern pulpit on Mr. Underhill's American Express card.

 

Want the number?  



#33 full circle

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:38 PM

Put the new stern pulpit on Mr. Underhill's American Express card.
 
Want the number?

oh boy, here we go.......

#34 vmg

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:45 PM

In the SB to KH race do they post results??  Protests??  Where is the rest of the video and why did they pull out the camera in the first place??  Was it one of those conversations like, "Hey bob, look at this asshole coming up behind.  Getting kind of close.  Better get the carmera...."?  or was it more like, "Hey bob, hold my beer and get the camera...  Watch this...."?

 

Protest would look at video evidence as only part of the story. The CAL didn't have a kite or head sail at least not that I could see.

0:11      "Drop the kite"



#35 bhyde

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:45 PM

I'd be curious if the infringed boat had overlap prior to the incident or if she was in fact clear ahead. Either way if we had a little more video before the incident it could be possible that this is a 14.1 situation where the rear-ended boat made a course adjustment to run hot, but did not give adequate opportunity for Boat B "Green Dragon" to respond. You can't tell with this because the maneuver and incident is already in play.

 

Bummer situation.

 

Since the recording has someone saying, "The guy [Bene] would not come up," it's likely the Cal had a leeward overlap with both boats on port jibe. Depending on how the overlap was established, they [Cal] may or may not have had rights. Then again, the Bene may have just ran them over from clear astern. Hard to say.

 

Be interesting to see the protest docs.

 

BTW: at about 0:24 in the video, someone on the Bene is moving forward to the pole, possibly getting ready to douse the kite. Hit-and-run might be a little bit of a strong term here, since we don't know how skilled the crew is with the whole kite up/down thing. Show us the whole video and we can make our completely irrelavent armchair judgements.



#36 bhyde

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:49 PM

Oh, and let me count the PFD's. That would be zero.



#37 CALtd

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:01 PM

1st frame shows both boats on Port with no overlap.

 

Cal may have come up to prevent being rolled.

 

Beneslow bow contacts Cal port aft quarter and spins the Cal 180deg.

 

I am not sure who called "we had right of way".



#38 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:04 PM

Oh, and let me count the PFD's. That would be zero.

B I noticed that also. In SF both boats would have been lectured about that for sure and possibly DNF due to being in violation of the required Life Jacket per the Event contract / race instructions etc. Not something SF events or sailors take lightly anymore given our recent losses. The CAL appears to have a young kid on the rail near the uppers without a life jacket also.



#39 Timo42

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

Green Dragon has raced a few Wed nights this year, so they've had a kite up...

#40 Ho'Okele

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

Just after the "Nice Job" from the Cal, someone on the Bennie says something on the order of "fuck you, fuck-we had right of way"...now that's a bold statement for a kite on port v. an upwind boat on either tack.



#41 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:19 PM

Pretty sure overlap was established at the point of contact however thats typically not how you go about establishing it. LOL



#42 poopie pants

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:21 PM

Snagged from an email thingy I'm in. Apparently It was taken during the recent Santa Barbara to King Harbor Race. It seems that the boat is owned by a Gary Green from DRYC.  From the internet, it seems that they were looking for paid crew, or something like that.

Here's an ad posted prior to the race.
 
"Green Dragon 2" is a Beneteau First 44.7 berthed in Marina del Rey, California. We have a full sail inventory and race PHRF in local weeknight, random leg and mid-distance races. Looking for a crew manager to organize crew, serve as tactician and as relief driver on longer races. Substantial, recent experience racing 40+ boats in competitive Southern California venues sought. Compensation negotiable, depending on duration of each race. Travel costs available for distance races. 
 
Grab some popcorn and enjoy. 
 



Isn't that Sinners yacht club

#43 B.Wilkinson

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:23 PM

Shit happens. It's why people have insurance.

#44 Gone Drinking

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:23 PM

Considering the contact is to windward of the rudder, would say the Bene is fucked in all aspects, as he was either astern prior to the contact or windward prior to the contact 



#45 poopie pants

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:24 PM

The Cal definitely had a kite up.  Look at :50 and beyond.  You can see a reaching strut rigged and a crewmember sitting on the collected chute.  Both boats scored DNF so with a little benefit of the doubt, I hope the Bene came to their senses, dropped out, and returned to the crime scene. 



If he dropped out of the race the score would be RET not DNF

#46 blackjenner

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:07 PM

Shit happens. It's why people have insurance.


This is why insurance is pricy.

#47 willsailforfood

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:04 PM

Geeze, I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.  Frankly there was barely any damage, it seemed more jarring mostly because the video starts right as the collision happens.

 

Nothing was bruised except for egos, time to move on.

 

Well to put it into better perspective.. they'll need to replace that teak taffrail, I just did that on my boat and that'll be a cool 2-3 kilobucks.  That assumes no glass damage or paint.  The cal 40 is a battleship so I'll assume nothing structural.  Paint touch up, maybe some gelcoat.. another grand and the yard time... conservatively $5 large.

 

You do $5k damage to my boat and you'll be getting a talking to. 

 

Main thing I see here is a boat rating 60 overtaking a boat rating 180-something and not keeping clear as they overtake. Fault is pretty easily established even without any pre-roll on the video. 

 

How that 40.7 didn't see the Cal or avoid it is beyond all comprehension, claiming they had rights after the fact is just pure idiocy.

 

This is why insurance is pricy.

 

...and why more clubs should be sanctioning people who do this kind of crap.  It raises the costs for the rest of us who do sail safely and according to the rules. 

 

This is clearly not a 'shit happens' incident, this is an arrogant idiot with total disregard or ignorance of the rules playing bumper cars with other people's boats.



#48 Grinder

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:10 PM

did the Bene stop racing?  I know DNF, but at the end of vid, the're still goin'



#49 Trickypig

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:19 PM

Observation lads … observation.

 

1. The Beneteau was a 44.7

2. They were both on port gybe with kites up

3. The Beneteau hit the Cal on the transom

 

 

 

I once crewed a Beneteau for a chap where we did the exact same thing although there was about 25 knots of breeze. Our skipper went around to the boat we hit afterwards with apologies, alcohol and his insurance details. The two owners ended up being drinking buddies, insurance sorted out the rest.

 

Whoever the tactician was on Green Dragon, he's a twat.



#50 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:22 PM

Geeze, I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.  Frankly there was barely any damage, it seemed more jarring mostly because the video starts right as the collision happens.

 

Nothing was bruised except for egos, time to move on.

 

Well to put it into better perspective.. they'll need to replace that teak taffrail, I just did that on my boat and that'll be a cool 2-3 kilobucks.  That assumes no glass damage or paint.  The cal 40 is a battleship so I'll assume nothing structural.  Paint touch up, maybe some gelcoat.. another grand and the yard time... conservatively $5 large.

 

You do $5k damage to my boat and you'll be getting a talking to. 

 

Main thing I see here is a boat rating 60 overtaking a boat rating 180-something and not keeping clear as they overtake. Fault is pretty easily established even without any pre-roll on the video. 

 

How that 40.7 didn't see the Cal or avoid it is beyond all comprehension, claiming they had rights after the fact is just pure idiocy.

 

>This is why insurance is pricy.

 

...and why more clubs should be sanctioning people who do this kind of crap.  It raises the costs for the rest of us who do sail safely and according to the rules. 

 

This is clearly not a 'shit happens' incident, this is an arrogant idiot with total disregard or ignorance of the rules playing bumper cars with other people's boats.

 

No doubt. Big ocean and your clearly on a faster boat so take a different line open up some gap and go by no big deal.



did the Bene stop racing?  I know DNF, but at the end of vid, the're still goin'

Goin - Goin - goin --- gone they were long gone by the time that video stopped rolling.



#51 fastyacht

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:25 PM

I didn't think amateur twats had "tactictians" or indeed any "afterguard"  whatsoever.



#52 Timo42

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:27 PM

Say what you want, Green Dragon will be given mark room tonight. B)



#53 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:28 PM

Say what you want, Green Dragon will be given mark room tonight. B)

Or told to stay home and missing from the race.



#54 Timo42

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:48 PM

Say what you want, Green Dragon will be given mark room tonight. B)

Or told to stay home and missing from the race.

What happens in SB, stays in SB? :huh:



#55 soliton

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:52 PM

The Cal definitely had a kite up.  Look at :50 and beyond.  You can see a reaching strut rigged and a crewmember sitting on the collected chute.  Both boats scored DNF so with a little benefit of the doubt, I hope the Bene came to their senses, dropped out, and returned to the crime scene. 



If he dropped out of the race the score would be RET not DNF

Agreed, but their software may have not had that option.  Since I don't RET or DNF, is there a difference in the scoring of each?



#56 NewLeaf

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:00 PM

Geeze, I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.  Frankly there was barely any damage, it seemed more jarring mostly because the video starts right as the collision happens.

 

Nothing was bruised except for egos, time to move on.

 

Well to put it into better perspective.. they'll need to replace that teak taffrail, I just did that on my boat and that'll be a cool 2-3 kilobucks.  That assumes no glass damage or paint.  The cal 40 is a battleship so I'll assume nothing structural.  Paint touch up, maybe some gelcoat.. another grand and the yard time... conservatively $5 large.

 

You do $5k damage to my boat and you'll be getting a talking to. 

 

Main thing I see here is a boat rating 60 overtaking a boat rating 180-something and not keeping clear as they overtake. Fault is pretty easily established even without any pre-roll on the video. 

 

How that 40.7 didn't see the Cal or avoid it is beyond all comprehension, claiming they had rights after the fact is just pure idiocy.

 

>This is why insurance is pricy.

 

...and why more clubs should be sanctioning people who do this kind of crap.  It raises the costs for the rest of us who do sail safely and according to the rules. 

 

This is clearly not a 'shit happens' incident, this is an arrogant idiot with total disregard or ignorance of the rules playing bumper cars with other people's boats.


 

I do not know but it appears to me that some US W coast sailors forget that the above all you MUST do everything in your power to avoid collision.
After a few years racing in the PNW I decided that it was not worth it to race with wanabe Gran Prix sailors that are willing to hit a boat to make a point. As an illustration of this, this past Monday night it was glorious here in Seattle; we had a decent breeze, sunny, warm but I saw a beautiful classic  hit a J24, do not what happened but really does not matter. Really? On a Monday night race? Why not give enough space? These are not the last race winner takes all of the Moth’s Worlds, I am not saying don’t be competitive but hitting a boat almost never buys you anything. Shit happens but it is clear from this video that at least one boat knew how bad the situation was becoming in a big hurry, why not avoid the collision?

J. if I were you there is no freaking way I would race your boat… PHRF + wanabe Gran Prix sailors and their big egos is not something I would expose your boat…



#57 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:08 PM

 

Geeze, I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is getting blown a bit out of proportion.  Frankly there was barely any damage, it seemed more jarring mostly because the video starts right as the collision happens.

 

Nothing was bruised except for egos, time to move on.

 

Well to put it into better perspective.. they'll need to replace that teak taffrail, I just did that on my boat and that'll be a cool 2-3 kilobucks.  That assumes no glass damage or paint.  The cal 40 is a battleship so I'll assume nothing structural.  Paint touch up, maybe some gelcoat.. another grand and the yard time... conservatively $5 large.

 

You do $5k damage to my boat and you'll be getting a talking to. 

 

Main thing I see here is a boat rating 60 overtaking a boat rating 180-something and not keeping clear as they overtake. Fault is pretty easily established even without any pre-roll on the video. 

 

How that 40.7 didn't see the Cal or avoid it is beyond all comprehension, claiming they had rights after the fact is just pure idiocy.

 

>This is why insurance is p

ricy.

 

...and why more clubs should be sanctioning people who do this kind of crap.  It raises the costs for the rest of us who do sail safely and according to the rules. 

 

This is clearly not a 'shit happens' incident, this is an arrogant idiot with total disregard or ignorance of the rules playing bumper cars with other people's boats.

I do not know but it appears to me that some US W coast sailors forget that the above all you MUST do everything in your power to avoid collision.
After a few years racing in the PNW I decided that it was not worth it to race with wanabe Gran Prix sailors that are willing to hit a boat to make a point. As an illustration of this, this past Monday night it was glorious here in Seattle; we had a decent breeze, sunny, warm but I saw a beautiful classic  hit a J24, do not what happened but really does not matter. Really? On a Monday night race? Why not give enough space? These are not the last race winner takes all of the Moth’s Worlds, I am not saying don’t be competitive but hitting a boat almost never buys you anything. Shit happens but it is clear from this video that at least one boat knew how bad the situation was becoming in a big hurry, why not avoid the collision?

J. if I were you there is no freaking way I would race your boat… PHRF + wanabe Gran Prix sailors and their big egos is not something I would expose your boat…

 

 

 

Beer can races shouldn't even give out trophies. Can of Beer maybe but trophy for a freaking Beer can series? Get a life people!! Couldn't agree more New Leaf

 

However Socal racing tradition treats week night beer can races like they are pre qualifier races to the Americas Cup. No idea why? Perhaps its due to the traffic jam all the boaters had to sit in on the way to the boat and having had to leave work at noon to make it to the dock in time for a 6pm start?



#58 Rasputin22

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 12:00 AM

I've been following this thread and the thing that has been overlooked for the most part is the serious risk of major injury in such a collision. In a brisk tradewinds regatta in the Islands, a J-29 got hit from astern in what looks to be a similar situation as a very competitive fleet closed on the leeward mark. The bow of the overtaking boat broke the stern pulpit and the sharp broken edge of the SS tubing and stem fitting hit the skipper right in the small of the back. He was a bear of a guy and had he been any smaller would have probably had his spine snapped but as it was he had his liver and lower back muscles severed. He damned near bled to death right there in the cockpit and barely made it to the hospital. He was in very serious condition for days and it took months of recovery and therapy and the next time I saw him he was a mere shadow of his former self and was never the same physically. 



#59 Islander Jack

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:29 AM

Beer can races shouldn't even give out trophies. Can of Beer maybe but trophy for a freaking Beer can series?

 

Maybe they'd all lighten up if trophies for Biggest Asshole were awarded.  One trophy for each class.



#60 shanghaisailor

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:31 AM

Surprisingly no mention of Rule 14 so far. the B44.7 clearly broke 14b and she had a whole ocean in which to keep clear. Why was she trying to pass so closely in any case. If she had been thinking ahead (many minutes perhaps) she could have passed 2 boat lengths to windward.

 

Regarding luffing rights? potentially Rule 17. the 44.7 being a faster boat would have initially been clear astern (conjecture) so if she did get close the had a duty to sail astern and continue to windward of the slower boat.

 

The Cal 40 has rights to defend as long as she gives the B44.7 'room to keep clear' a video starting earlier would be useful than the tracks of the boats might have been visible

 

Also having caused a collision that left parts of the boat dragging in the water should have told the B44.7 skipper that he had caused serious damage and he had a potential obligation under Rule 1.1 - melodramatic perhaps but he didnt even check - so sound of an "Are you OK guys?" from the VHF

 

 

We all have to learn as we go but one would think by the time one gets to aB44.7 they would have done a bt of racing beforehand

 

See ya on the water (but hopefully not if you are Green Dragon)

 

SS



#61 Koukel

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:48 AM

The camera person did a spectacular job.

 

Koukel



#62 Norm

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:14 AM

poor seamanship - i know there are racing rules,

 

but there's plenty of water there, no need for both boats to be in the same place at the same time. 



#63 willsailforfood

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:22 AM

I do not know but it appears to me that some US W coast sailors forget that the above all you MUST do everything in your power to avoid collision.
After a few years racing in the PNW I decided that it was not worth it to race with wanabe Gran Prix sailors that are willing to hit a boat to make a point. As an illustration of this, this past Monday night it was glorious here in Seattle; we had a decent breeze, sunny, warm but I saw a beautiful classic  hit a J24, do not what happened but really does not matter. Really? On a Monday night race? Why not give enough space? These are not the last race winner takes all of the Moth’s Worlds, I am not saying don’t be competitive but hitting a boat almost never buys you anything. Shit happens but it is clear from this video that at least one boat knew how bad the situation was becoming in a big hurry, why not avoid the collision?

J. if I were you there is no freaking way I would race your boat… PHRF + wanabe Gran Prix sailors and their big egos is not something I would expose your boat…

 

Amen to that! I will only do Race to the Straights and Swiftsure, Vic Maui, maybe, but buoy racing??? That's what I14's J24's and Tutmark's boat are for!  :)

 

Cheers!



#64 movable ballast

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:27 AM

The CAL looks clear ahead to me and the Bene just ran them over... It also looks like the CAL was to leeward and coming up to defend her position when the bene ran her down. The CAL may have not given enough room for the Bene to avoid contact but the Bene never had rights...



#65 willsailforfood

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:27 AM

The Cal 40 has rights to defend as long as she gives the B44.7 'room to keep clear' a video starting earlier would be useful than the tracks of the boats might have been visible

 

Why would more footage be useful?

 

On frame one there's no overlap. Case closed. 

 

They were hit square in the transom, they were clearly overtaken from clear astern, otherwise how to you account for the boat being nailed squarely in the transom? 

 

Additional footage provides no meaningful data beyond what's provided.



#66 SC Finnster

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:29 AM

Interesting to note from the audio that there is no valid protest.



#67 Somebody Else

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:33 AM

When you get two boats with crew who have not done much high-level and/or one-design racing and a rules situation comes up, there is a high possibility of bad decision-making and delayed or inappropriate response. I am willing to bet that, within a few degrees, at this juncture in the race, both boats were within a few degrees of the same course and were certainly headed for the same mark, if not waypoint (Pt. Dume.)

So there's a faster boat coming up from astern. A sane crew would sail their own boat up until the point where they are just about to get blanketed, then soak down for 100 meters or so, then come back to their numbers as soon as they were clear of the wind shadow. If they time it right, they can do so without giving up any VMG and, indeed, may actually gain some VMG by carrying AWA with them during the soak.

Who knows how long the C40 had been holding off the Beneteau? Anyone know? How many times had the Bene acquiesced and attempted to pass to leeward only to be hurt just enough by the wind shadow not to be able to bust through? Or the Bene could have been 400 meters to weather but Mr. C40 skipper once read in a Stuart Walker book that you don't want to get passed to weather, so he set his jaw and determined to avoid that horrible fate at all costs.

Or, seeing as how the C40 skipper was acting like a deer in the headlights, Mr. Racer Guy who was brought aboard for this race was giving him precious advice: "OK... luff NOW!"
<flip the tiller over>
<crunch>

"What the fuck! We had right-of-way!"
"The guy would NOT come up."

Sounds like a douche hired-gun tactician to me...
Doesn't that sound like a douche-level "apology" to his skipper?
Just sayin'...

#68 willsailforfood

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:37 AM

When you get two boats with crew who have not done much high-level and/or one-design racing and a rules situation comes up, there is a high possibility of bad decision-making and delayed or inappropriate response. I am willing to bet that, within a few degrees, at this juncture in the race, both boats were within a few degrees of the same course and were certainly headed for the same mark, if not waypoint (Pt. Dume.)

So there's a faster boat coming up from astern. A sane crew would sail their own boat up until the point where they are just about to get blanketed, then soak down for 100 meters or so, then come back to their numbers as soon as they were clear of the wind shadow. If they time it right, they can do so without giving up any VMG and, indeed, may actually gain some VMG by carrying AWA with them during the soak.

Who knows how long the C40 had been holding off the Beneteau? Anyone know? How many times had the Bene acquiesced and attempted to pass to leeward only to be hurt just enough by the wind shadow not to be able to bust through? Or the Bene could have been 400 meters to weather but Mr. C40 skipper once read in a Stuart Walker book that you don't want to get passed to weather, so he set his jaw and determined to avoid that horrible fate at all costs.

Or, seeing as how the C40 skipper was acting like a deer in the headlights, Mr. Racer Guy who was brought aboard for this race was giving him precious advice: "OK... luff NOW!"
<flip the tiller over>
<crunch>

"What the fuck! We had right-of-way!"
"The guy would NOT come up."

Sounds like a douche hired-gun tactician to me...
Doesn't that sound like a douche-level "apology" to his skipper?
Just sayin'...

 

Dude,

 

The Bene owes them AT LEAST 120 seconds a mile.. really?  The downwind differential is enormous between those boats.. no one would be holding a 44.7 off with a C40 in even the most torrid teenage wet dream. I know I've sailed on both designs over the years.  I can assure you that Bene had legs all over the C40 before any of this happened.

 

Why they were even behind at that point is another question (unless they were lapping the B40)... you really have to f#@% things up on the weather leg to end up behind a boat owing you 2 min+ a mile.



#69 BiggestAssholeEverSeen

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:44 AM

Beer can races shouldn't even give out trophies. Can of Beer maybe but trophy for a freaking Beer can series?

 

Maybe they'd all lighten up if trophies for Biggest Asshole were awarded.  One trophy for each class.

Was gonna say: "Sorry, the title has already been given", but I only sail in a few classes... soooo, go on and award away-



#70 On the Hard

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:47 AM

Trying to give the benefit of the doubt here, although I"m pretty sure the actions of B are inexcusable; especially after the collision. The only thing I can think of is that B was moving a LOT faster than the Cal and was taken by surprise when the Cal came up and didn't have room to duck. Still doesn't excuse the aftermath but perhaps Cal should have given B more notice of their intent to head up. Without more video there's no way to tell for sure



#71 Somebody Else

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:52 AM

The Bene owes them AT LEAST 120 seconds a mile.. really? 

 
That specific Beneteau 44.7 owes the Cal40 EXACTLY 75 seconds per mile.

 

 

I can assure you that Bene had legs all over the C40 before any of this happened.

 

Why they were even behind at that point is another question (unless they were lapping the B40)... you really have to f#@% things up on the weather leg to end up behind a boat owing you 2 min+ a mile.

 

Sort of explains a lot, don't you think? On that day, in that race, that specific Beneteau 44.7 appears to not be sailing to their rating, eh? Could be simply bad luck or...

_________

 

I'll say it again: you get two clueless racers close to each other on the race course, you better start pre-dialing the insurance companies well before establishing the overlap.



#72 nuffy

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:13 AM

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.



#73 willsailforfood

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:24 AM

 
That specific Beneteau 44.7 owes the Cal40 EXACTLY 75 seconds per mile.

 

Still a freaking lifetime over the course of a whole windward leg..



#74 Timo42

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 04:00 AM

This wasn't buoy racing, it was an 80 mile distance race

#75 soliton

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 04:06 AM

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.

The reaching strut was rigged for a port tack.  Even a crack crew would have taken a few minutes to get things squared away and the strut rigged after a gybe.  We are witnessing two boats that are incredibly poorly sailed running into one another.



#76 Bill R

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:51 AM

regardless of who had right of way, what on earth is the point of crashing into a boat when it appears that there is miles of ocean to play in.  The B obviously has more speed so to come up from behind and get an overlap so close is madness.  And if he had more speed just go round, This is handicap racing  your racing the clock slowing yourself down is pointless, clear air and speed is what's required. 

 

The actions of both crew after the crash defy belief .   should they even be out of the marina?

 

the guys on the bene should be ashamed of themselves for not checking everyone involved was OK.  



#77 NoStrings

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:58 AM

WTF, the Beneteau is overtaking. What more do you need to know? And seriously, its a frigging ocean race. Do you actually NEED to drive up a slower boat's ass to pass them?

The crew of the Cal 40 should be permitted "rights" with the wife of the owner of the Beneteau.

#78 Bump-n-Grind

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:04 AM

WTF, the Beneteau is overtaking. What more do you need to know? And seriously, its a frigging ocean race. Do you actually NEED to drive up a slower boat's ass to pass them?

The crew of the Cal 40 should be permitted "rights" with the wife  daughter of the owner of the Beneteau.



#79 soliton

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:09 AM

WTF, the Beneteau is overtaking. What more do you need to know? And seriously, its a frigging ocean race. Do you actually NEED to drive up a slower boat's ass to pass them?

The crew of the Cal 40 should be permitted "rights" with the wife of the owner of the Beneteau.

Hi Nick,

Out on parole?  Good to see you posting!  (We used to work at the same parent company and traded an email or two; my screen name has changed)



#80 deluxe68

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:26 AM

Shit happens. No one died. Exchange insurance and move on people, nothing to see.

Stoopid question. Does boat insurance pay for damage when you are in a race? Most car insurance policies do not cover anything that happens in a sanctioned race. 



#81 soliton

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:37 AM

Shit happens. No one died. Exchange insurance and move on people, nothing to see.

Stoopid question. Does boat insurance pay for damage when you are in a race? Most car insurance policies do not cover anything that happens in a sanctioned race. 

Actually, at least in the US, it is common to have your policy cover racing.  I don't know if it comes at a premium but I have been aboard several boats with big claims (lost rigs) and insurance came through.  So maybe not so stoopid (sic).



#82 LeoV

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:23 AM

I'll say it again: you get two clueless racers close to each other on the race course, you better start pre-dialing the insurance companies well before establishing the overlap.

 +1,

 

and that the video starts were it starts is a weak point.

 

And for not stopping in a sec, come on, you do not know the skill set of crew.



#83 Laserty

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

This whole conversation is moot without having the previous 30 seconds being shown.

#84 Pachyderm

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:06 PM

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.

The reaching strut was rigged for a port tack.  Even a crack crew would have taken a few minutes to get things squared away and the strut rigged after a gybe.  We are witnessing two boats that are incredibly poorly sailed running into one another.

I just have to weigh against the sentiment that the Cal 40 was being poorly sailed to get in a situation where they were hit. The "there was a whole ocean to play in" comments just don't apply to boats racing against each other. Heading up an overtaking boat to avoid being rolled is an absolutely fundamental element of racing. If you are suggesting the Cal 40 just sit there and be rolled, there would be no point in entering race. Obviously you don't luff so abruptly that you cause an inevitable collision, but the goal is sometimes to make the the overtaking boat make an abrupt and speed draining luff. True we can't see what happened before the video, but the fact that the crew felt the need to turn on a camera suggests the Beneteau was not responding to some prior yelling. If the collision was side to side, I'd agree that the Cal could have ended the luff and protested instead, but at the point of the collision, I don't see the move (Up or down) that the Cal could have made to avoid.



#85 Canal Bottom

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:12 PM

WTF, the Beneteau is overtaking. What more do you need to know? And seriously, its a frigging ocean race. Do you actually NEED to drive up a slower boat's ass to pass them?

The crew of the Cal 40 should be permitted "rights" with the wife of the owner of the Beneteau.

 

+1  Who knows she may even consider it a trade up.  I wonder how long it will be before Mr. Green and his tactician will visit the bar again.  Someone should reach out to the wifey and let her know SA will be ruling on her future shortly.



#86 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:12 PM

 

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.

The reaching strut was rigged for a port tack.  Even a crack crew would have taken a few minutes to get things squared away and the strut rigged after a gybe.  We are witnessing two boats that are incredibly poorly sailed running into one another.

I just have to weigh against the sentiment that the Cal 40 was being poorly sailed to get in a situation where they were hit. The "there was a whole ocean to play in" comments just don't apply to boats racing against each other. Heading up an overtaking boat to avoid being rolled is an absolutely fundamental element of racing. If you are suggesting the Cal 40 just sit there and be rolled, there would be no point in entering race. Obviously you don't luff so abruptly that you cause an inevitable collision, but the goal is sometimes to make the the overtaking boat make an abrupt and speed draining luff. True we can't see what happened before the video, but the fact that the crew felt the need to turn on a camera suggests the Beneteau was not responding to some prior yelling. If the collision was side to side, I'd agree that the Cal could have ended the luff and protested instead, but at the point of the collision, I don't see the move (Up or down) that the Cal could have made to avoid.

You are the reason shit like this happens. One of the first things anyone with a brain learns is how to get passed by a faster boat with the least impact to your speed. Fucking around with another boat while fleet racing is beyond stupid. Fucking around with a boat that is 75 seconds a mile faster than you and probably is not in your class is a dick move that is beyond stupid.

 

Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck off the water



#87 Shaggy

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:24 PM

It was the benny that had the add for a navaguesser and BN not the cal....

 

Just sayin

When you get two boats with crew who have not done much high-level and/or one-design racing and a rules situation comes up, there is a high possibility of bad decision-making and delayed or inappropriate response. I am willing to bet that, within a few degrees, at this juncture in the race, both boats were within a few degrees of the same course and were certainly headed for the same mark, if not waypoint (Pt. Dume.)

So there's a faster boat coming up from astern. A sane crew would sail their own boat up until the point where they are just about to get blanketed, then soak down for 100 meters or so, then come back to their numbers as soon as they were clear of the wind shadow. If they time it right, they can do so without giving up any VMG and, indeed, may actually gain some VMG by carrying AWA with them during the soak.

Who knows how long the C40 had been holding off the Beneteau? Anyone know? How many times had the Bene acquiesced and attempted to pass to leeward only to be hurt just enough by the wind shadow not to be able to bust through? Or the Bene could have been 400 meters to weather but Mr. C40 skipper once read in a Stuart Walker book that you don't want to get passed to weather, so he set his jaw and determined to avoid that horrible fate at all costs.

Or, seeing as how the C40 skipper was acting like a deer in the headlights, Mr. Racer Guy who was brought aboard for this race was giving him precious advice: "OK... luff NOW!"
<flip the tiller over>
<crunch>

"What the fuck! We had right-of-way!"
"The guy would NOT come up."

Sounds like a douche hired-gun tactician to me...
Doesn't that sound like a douche-level "apology" to his skipper?
Just sayin'...



#88 Pachyderm

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:29 PM

 

 

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.

The reaching strut was rigged for a port tack.  Even a crack crew would have taken a few minutes to get things squared away and the strut rigged after a gybe.  We are witnessing two boats that are incredibly poorly sailed running into one another.

I just have to weigh against the sentiment that the Cal 40 was being poorly sailed to get in a situation where they were hit. The "there was a whole ocean to play in" comments just don't apply to boats racing against each other. Heading up an overtaking boat to avoid being rolled is an absolutely fundamental element of racing. If you are suggesting the Cal 40 just sit there and be rolled, there would be no point in entering race. Obviously you don't luff so abruptly that you cause an inevitable collision, but the goal is sometimes to make the the overtaking boat make an abrupt and speed draining luff. True we can't see what happened before the video, but the fact that the crew felt the need to turn on a camera suggests the Beneteau was not responding to some prior yelling. If the collision was side to side, I'd agree that the Cal could have ended the luff and protested instead, but at the point of the collision, I don't see the move (Up or down) that the Cal could have made to avoid.

You are the reason shit like this happens. One of the first things anyone with a brain learns is how to get passed by a faster boat with the least impact to your speed. Fucking around with another boat while fleet racing is beyond stupid. Fucking around with a boat that is 75 seconds a mile faster than you and probably is not in your class is a dick move that is beyond stupid.

 

Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck off the water

I've been fleet racing 40 years including on Cal 40s and know how to stay clear of faster overtaking boats. But sometimes you have to count on the other boat to sail reasonably. From the first frame positions, it looks most like Cal did everything right. It appears they had come up to force the Beneteau to go below, and the driver of the Beneteau mis-judged the dip below his transom and hooked the pulpit. Why is that bad sailing by the Cal.



#89 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:37 PM

 

 

 

I observed that the traveler car on the C40 was on the port side right before the colllision, which would make me assume they were on Starboard before the footage began and somehow ended up on Port. The may have been crossing in front on Starboard and gybed or Chinese gybe. Why else would you be running on Port with the traveler on the Port side.

The reaching strut was rigged for a port tack.  Even a crack crew would have taken a few minutes to get things squared away and the strut rigged after a gybe.  We are witnessing two boats that are incredibly poorly sailed running into one another.

I just have to weigh against the sentiment that the Cal 40 was being poorly sailed to get in a situation where they were hit. The "there was a whole ocean to play in" comments just don't apply to boats racing against each other. Heading up an overtaking boat to avoid being rolled is an absolutely fundamental element of racing. If you are suggesting the Cal 40 just sit there and be rolled, there would be no point in entering race. Obviously you don't luff so abruptly that you cause an inevitable collision, but the goal is sometimes to make the the overtaking boat make an abrupt and speed draining luff. True we can't see what happened before the video, but the fact that the crew felt the need to turn on a camera suggests the Beneteau was not responding to some prior yelling. If the collision was side to side, I'd agree that the Cal could have ended the luff and protested instead, but at the point of the collision, I don't see the move (Up or down) that the Cal could have made to avoid.

You are the reason shit like this happens. One of the first things anyone with a brain learns is how to get passed by a faster boat with the least impact to your speed. Fucking around with another boat while fleet racing is beyond stupid. Fucking around with a boat that is 75 seconds a mile faster than you and probably is not in your class is a dick move that is beyond stupid.

 

Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck off the water

I've been fleet racing 40 years including on Cal 40s and know how to stay clear of faster overtaking boats. But sometimes you have to count on the other boat to sail reasonably. From the first frame positions, it looks most like Cal did everything right. It appears they had come up to force the Beneteau to go below, and the driver of the Beneteau mis-judged the dip below his transom and hooked the pulpit. Why is that bad sailing by the Cal.

I was commenting on the above ignorant statement only. I'm in the bene fucked up camp from what i can see.



#90 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:48 PM

Maybe I was a bit harsh but it is a pet peeve of mine that you see all time club racing. If its a match race all well and good. If its at the end of a long series and you and another guy are tied and so far ahead of third and fourth place that it wont change anything if you get chucked than thats cool to. Other than that its just stupid. You will do a whole hell of a lot better sailing your own race not dicking around with other boats and keeping the letters out of your score card. In short course racing just having to do two more tacks than everyone else can put you in the cheap seats it does not pay over the long haul to go off exploring the finer parts of the rule book with other boats. End of rant



#91 willsailforfood

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 02:57 PM

This whole conversation is moot without having the previous 30 seconds being shown.

 

I'll repeat, on what planet does the Bene have an overlap if they hit the other boat square in the transom? The Bene rates 44, the Cal in the 120 department, an opti sailor can work out the speed difference from there.  The Bene should have been a country mile to leeward of where he was but clearly the little head was doing the thinking.

 

Again, consider the fact that the Cal has a reaching strut rigged, the awa is pretty f'ing far forward here.

 

 

I've been fleet racing 40 years including on Cal 40s and know how to stay clear of faster overtaking boats. But sometimes you have to count on the other boat to sail reasonably. From the first frame positions, it looks most like Cal did everything right. It appears they had come up to force the Beneteau to go below, and the driver of the Beneteau mis-judged the dip below his transom and hooked the pulpit. Why is that bad sailing by the Cal.

 

Exactly.. no pre-roll needed, sure the EPIRB comment makes one of his crew look like a tool, but I see no fault with the Cal's sailing here.  If I was one of the judges I think I'd let the 29 seconds go on the protest notice as well considering they were regaining their wits after having significant parts of their boat ripped off and retiring from the race.



#92 Pachyderm

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:01 PM

 

 

 

 

I just have to weigh against the sentiment that the Cal 40 was being poorly sailed to get in a situation where they were hit. The "there was a whole ocean to play in" comments just don't apply to boats racing against each other. Heading up an overtaking boat to avoid being rolled is an absolutely fundamental element of racing. If you are suggesting the Cal 40 just sit there and be rolled, there would be no point in entering race. Obviously you don't luff so abruptly that you cause an inevitable collision, but the goal is sometimes to make the the overtaking boat make an abrupt and speed draining luff. True we can't see what happened before the video, but the fact that the crew felt the need to turn on a camera suggests the Beneteau was not responding to some prior yelling. If the collision was side to side, I'd agree that the Cal could have ended the luff and protested instead, but at the point of the collision, I don't see the move (Up or down) that the Cal could have made to avoid.

You are the reason shit like this happens. One of the first things anyone with a brain learns is how to get passed by a faster boat with the least impact to your speed. Fucking around with another boat while fleet racing is beyond stupid. Fucking around with a boat that is 75 seconds a mile faster than you and probably is not in your class is a dick move that is beyond stupid.

 

Do everyone a favor and stay the fuck off the water

I've been fleet racing 40 years including on Cal 40s and know how to stay clear of faster overtaking boats. But sometimes you have to count on the other boat to sail reasonably. From the first frame positions, it looks most like Cal did everything right. It appears they had come up to force the Beneteau to go below, and the driver of the Beneteau mis-judged the dip below his transom and hooked the pulpit. Why is that bad sailing by the Cal.

I was commenting on the above ignorant statement only. I'm in the bene fucked up camp from what i can see.

 

 

Fair enough. I would have likely soaked low of the passing lane myself in that position, but if the Beneteau is going to try to run me over at close range, I'm going to take them up if I think I can stop them. They can either come at me again from higher up or break through from further to leeward. I didn't say heading up an overtaking boat is the best or only strategy, but I stand by my "ignorant" statement.



#93 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:02 PM

I don't think there is any reason that Green's contact info needs to be in this thread.  The name is out there, and if anyone wants to hunt down his info, it ain't hard.  



#94 Pachyderm

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:06 PM

Maybe I was a bit harsh but it is a pet peeve of mine that you see all time club racing. If its a match race all well and good. If its at the end of a long series and you and another guy are tied and so far ahead of third and fourth place that it wont change anything if you get chucked than thats cool to. Other than that its just stupid. You will do a whole hell of a lot better sailing your own race not dicking around with other boats and keeping the letters out of your score card. In short course racing just having to do two more tacks than everyone else can put you in the cheap seats it does not pay over the long haul to go off exploring the finer parts of the rule book with other boats. End of rant

Replied above before reading this. Couldn't agree more with your rant. Thanks.



#95 dasher12

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:07 PM

Its a little suspect why the video leading up to the foul isn't posted. Seems like there's no reason not to post it unless it incriminates the person who filmed it (Cal 40). Although they are clearly the right-of-way boat in any of the reasonable scenarios leading up to the contact it is entirely possible that they (Cal 40) did not give room to keep clear (rule 16.1). Regardless they both should probably be thrown out for not doing enough to avoid contact which caused significant damage. Tough to place blame without seeing the full sequence of events.



#96 fastyacht

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

I don't think there is any reason that Green's contact info needs to be in this thread.  The name is out there, and if anyone wants to hunt down his info, it ain't hard.  

That was one of those rare moments where yes, a moderator does need to take action.



#97 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:25 PM

I find it hard to belive that none of the crew from either yacht has not found this and brought the thread to its proper and deserving cresendo. SA must be loosing its mojo



#98 NewLeaf

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:37 PM

Lets agree for a minute that the Bene skipper is a really bad sailor and asshole, and lets say that the Cal skipper is a decent sailor and better person. Then why the Cal had time to take a video of the situation and not avoid a collision? What did the Cal get out of all this besides not finishing a good race, a broken boat, a lot of wasted time and money, and the loss of use of the boat in the middle of the summer?

 

Not becasue the guy next to you does not know shit and is an asshole you should act like one.

 

A skipper must avoid the collision at all costs, then if they believe they lost time they should protest and place a request for a time allowance. Anything short of this is just big ego getting in the way.

 

You are racing PHRF for Christ sake! So you are racing against time and the very bias and uneducated judgment of your handicapper; your job a skipper is to beat them, not hit the boat next to you. If this is not chalenging enough then race One Design.



#99 Turd Sandwich

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:45 PM

Lets agree for a minute that the Bene skipper is a really bad sailor and asshole, and lets say that the Cal skipper is a decent sailor and better person. Then why the Cal had time to take a video of the situation and not avoid a collision? What did the Cal get out of all this besides not finishing a good race, a broken boat, a lot of wasted time and money, and the loss of use of the boat in the middle of the summer?

 

Not becasue the guy next to you does not know shit and is an asshole you should act like one.

 

A skipper must avoid the collision at all costs, then if they believe they lost time they should protest and place a request for a time allowance. Anything short of this is just big ego getting in the way.

 

You are racing PHRF for Christ sake! So you are racing against time and the very bias and uneducated judgment of your handicapper; your job a skipper is to beat them, not hit the boat next to you. If this is not chalenging enough then race One Design.

Thats the reason I would have been looking to hook up with the quarter wake of the Bene and hoping another fast one was coming up right after so i could do it again



#100 blackjenner

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

Observation lads … observation.

 

1. The Beneteau was a 44.7

2. They were both on port gybe with kites up

3. The Beneteau hit the Cal on the transom

 

 

 

I once crewed a Beneteau for a chap where we did the exact same thing although there was about 25 knots of breeze. Our skipper went around to the boat we hit afterwards with apologies, alcohol and his insurance details. The two owners ended up being drinking buddies, insurance sorted out the rest.

 

Whoever the tactician was on Green Dragon, he's a twat.

 

That's just the thing. 

 

I've been involved with racing (motorcycles and sailboats) over the years. Racing is racing. It's competitive. Rules exist to make the competition exciting while ensuring some level of fairness and, get this -- safety.

 

In racing, there will always be a dick or two. That is why rules exist.

 

Now, seeing this video leaves some information out. so I don't have an Informed Opinion ™ on what led to this incident.

 

What I do see from this is a boat striking another in the transom, basically passing it off with "well, fuck you for being in my way", and leaving the scene. No matter what happened before the incident, we are still left with the driver of the Bene leaving the scene of the accident without ever once, even for a minute, seeing if everyone was OK. That is unconscionable behavior and, were it to happen to me, I think the driver of that boat, and the person who offered the "fuck you" would be having words with me. It would be in public, at the dock, in front of witnesses.

 

It's worse in motorcycle racing. Someone will come inside you, you freak out, blow the curve and end up tumbling in the weeds, destroying your race bike and maybe your body. Very often, as pieces of the bike and you are being picked back up, someone, maybe even you, will say, "that's racing." There is always a fine line between fair racing and dick move. The difference is usually moderated by the rules and the *behavior* of the people involved.

 

I call dick move on this one, including irresponsible behavior, along with an almost psychopathic (yes I'm using that word correctly) need to win.






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