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"Heaven Can Wait" 24 hour Yacht Race


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#1 Heaven can wait

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 02:07 PM

Would the NSW sailing community be interested in competing in a 24 hour race around Lake Macquarie!



For NOR's and further info please goto Raffertys Resortand follow the links.

or MPYCand follow the links.

#2 Lanson

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 01:34 AM

Fuck, I was sore enough at the end of the 50 miler!!

Sounds like a good idea though :)

#3 bfp

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 01:55 AM

sounds like a lot of laps to me!

#4 tbm

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 06:57 AM

Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#5 TD Floater

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 12:11 PM

For all? TY's, Sports and illegal Sports.

#6 djet

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:15 PM

what clubs and pubs r included in the the course.

#7 Heaven can wait

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:33 PM

Thanks folks for the interest,

I'm not ashamed to say that I have Cancer, and the "Heaven can Wait" 24 hour race aside from being a "fair dinkum" race, I hope will raise some big bucks for Cancer and support of families.

Yep there will be laps, and from the initial interest from Sydney Town, a heap of yachts getting in a bit of practice for when they either turn left or right at the heads.

Because of the location I trust that the race will be a Cat 5/6 ? and will start and finish from the Southern end of Lake Macquarie.

In short, the "HCW" 24 hour is simply an opportunity for a broader range of Yachts/Classes to compete in a passage race than would otherwize be able to.

The nuts and bolts of the sailing instructions are yet to be finalized, however the cogs are definately in motion.

Heaven can Wait

#8 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 01:06 PM

any chance of non sport boats/trailable yachts being allowed to enter in this race if it ever does eventuate, im sure that there would b interest from larger yachts cruising/racing if it were possible for them to enter

would it b several laps of the same course or would there b variety in them?? because sailing the same thing over and over again for 24hrs would drive even the most commited sailor up the wall

i also have a cousin/s that have cancer so i understand the need for supporting familes etc

#9 Heaven can wait

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 01:44 PM

The 24 hour is open to any yacht that can meet overnight Cat "Safety" requirements.

And heaven forbid "Multi - Hulls".

We are currently confirming insurance requirements for this event, and appease any "Waterways" concerns.

I am open to suggestions reguarding the course, however we have to keep the course reasonably simple. One suggestion has been to sail on the Eastern side of Pulbar heading north and down the Western side heading South.

Aside from driving sailor's mad, each yacht will have a sail change every 3 - 4 hours, and at least we'll have a scenery to look at, unlike sailing offshore.

One of the more sensable comments I've heard is "If you want to stretch your legs, you can always get off and walk".

I hope that I've shed some more light on the subject.

Heaven can wait

#10 Lanson

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 12:51 AM

out of curiosity, the 24 hour in the name... is that the intended length of time for the quickest boat? slowest boat? or everyone keeps sailing for 24 hours and those that got the furthest win?

#11 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 12:56 AM

im guessing it would have to be the yachts that sail the furthest in 24hrs win(like the LeMans 24hr or Bathurst 24hr road race) be abit silly to have a race where only the fastest would be able to complete the course in 24hrs

#12 Heaven can wait

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 04:46 AM

The "24 Hours" is calculated by a pre - determined course distance. Yachts will sail the course allocated to their division. For example Division 1 may have an allocated race distance of 144 nm @ an average of 6 knots, which will bring home the scatch yacht on exactly 24 hours.

Sail faster than an average of 6 knots over the race distance of 144 nm, and a TCF will adjust the scatch yachts nm's sailed for the 24 hours with a follow - on for all other finishers. The reverse will happen should the scratch yacht not complete the course in 24 hours.

A pre - determined course is planned so as to have all starters, start from one line and finished from the same line, so as to negate any bending of any "truths".

The race distance allocated to each division, shall be reasonably attainable by the scratch boat in that division.

The race distance maybe shortened due to poor winds, by which Pulbah Island shall be deamed a "Home Buoy" which is to be rounded as per the sailing instructions and all yachts are to proceed directly to the finish line.

The object of this 24 hour race is to have all competing Yachts finished by or as close to 24 hours as possible.

To ensure a quality fleet, prizes will be awarded for the fastest mono - hull and multi hull overall ("line honours"), and awarded for winners on corrected time in each division.

Heaven can Wait

#13 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 05:23 AM

any ideas when this 24hr race will take place??

#14 Heaven can wait

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:35 AM

Probable trial during October Long weekend 2005.

Actual event October Long Weekend 2006.

#15 TD Floater

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 09:18 AM

"Illegal sportsboat" owner faces sentence - 'nose i's in trouble

he,he,he.

I get that one.

#16 TD Floater

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 09:22 AM

Probable trial during October Long weekend 2005.

Actual event October Long Weekend 2006.

Jervis Bay do a 30 miler in November. Not the Oct weekend as I previously said.

Good luck, with both challenges.

Edited by Steve AUS, 06 April 2005 - 12:53 AM.


#17 Heaven can wait

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 10:06 AM

The 24 hour race updates.

I would like to try and get as many "Sportsboats" to comply with the Cat 5N as possible.

* We are producing charts specific to Lake Macquarie, and are sourcing a stock of "very reasonable" colour plotters.

* Prominant Aussie Sailing mags have already expressed an interest in following the event.

The Majority of Funds raised from entry fee will go to the NSW Cancer Council family support & the Volunteer Coastal patrol.

Lets see as many Sportsboats as possible at the 24 hour

Heaven can Wait

#18 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 02:53 PM

Can crews get on and off ??

#19 Heaven can wait

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 01:29 PM

Gybeset

Lets hope your crews on, however how you get "Off" is a personal choice! Seriously though, all Boats are to start with the same crew they finish with.

In all fairness Gybeset, this race is intended to be an "Offshore" event held "Inshore" with as much emphasis based on those restricted Yachts competing. Restricted being those smaller than 25 feet or of the Sportsboat genre.

Basically, if any of you sportboat owners out there who can get their boat to Cat 5N, we'll see you out there on the water.

Lake Macquarie shore beats banging your way South or North for that matter, sitting on the rail getting pasted for hours. At least you'll get a spinnaker run every three hours or so.

Cheers

Heaven can Wait

#20 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 01:45 PM

Gybeset

Lets hope your crews on, however how you get "Off" is a personal choice! Seriously though, all Boats are to start with the same crew they finish with.

In all fairness Gybeset, this race is intended to be an "Offshore" event held "Inshore" with as much emphasis based on those restricted Yachts competing. Restricted being those smaller than 25 feet or of the Sportsboat genre.

Basically, if any of you sportboat owners out there who can get their boat to Cat 5N, we'll see you out there on the water.

Lake Macquarie shore beats banging your way South or North for that matter, sitting on the rail getting pasted for hours. At least you'll get a spinnaker run every three hours or so.

Cheers

Heaven can Wait

Often to CAT5N (marley5N-hogs5) no problem at all,

earlier comment about get off and walk was in jest ??????????

"One of the more sensable comments I've heard is "If you want to stretch your legs, you can always get off and walk". it rates as a joke !

There are precedents of crew changes at Lk Keepit 24hr,
rather like Le Mans 24hr or Bathurst 12hr/ and 6hrs

#21 Heaven can wait

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 02:24 PM

Gybeset

The above comment was made by one of the more accomplished sailor's on Lake Macquarie who's done numerous Hobarts, namely aboard "97", who was speaking figueratively with the Hobart in mind. (you can't get out and walk in that race!)

As for Tuggerah Lake I reckon you could almost walk across it.

As for the format of the race, you guys tell me what you want, and we'll see happens.

Your imput is greatly appreciated, as we what the race to appeal to as many as possible.

Heaven can Wait

#22 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 02:36 PM

Quite a few non-farts sportsboats around lake Macq, Magics at Belmont and 23's at Toronto/Wangi, and MY Kindy , very physical boats , u will have more chance of entries in that division (smaller LOA or s/b or whatever) if sportsboat can do the odd crew-change.

there is an excess of skiff/hi-po dinghy guys around LM to make the numbers to facilitate this entirely possible.

#23 couchsurfer

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Posted 10 April 2005 - 03:35 PM

what clubs and pubs r included in the the course.

ah yes,I see it now--mandatory stops at each pub every lap or 2!! :D

#24 Heaven can wait

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 03:47 AM

Gybeset

The Lemans/pit stop idea could have some merit as it maybe a way to handicap all of the sportsboats.

The only thing, each boat would have to designate a crew, so as the Club's Admin would have some idea as to who is doing what and on what.

Transfer will have to be designated somewhere on the course.

Heaven can Wait

#25 Heaven can wait

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:48 AM

Sail4Cancer do an "Off the beach" 24 hour race in England, which I have looked into briefly.

This race is open to teams and individuals and apparently has a fair following, does anyone know how they work it?

#26 Heaven can wait

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Posted 17 April 2005 - 04:37 AM

Right you SB lunatic's,

All or you guys have had a fair ol' go at Physic's and have basically discovered the anatomy of a grain of sand - if we are to talk figuers, what handicapping System would be acceptable to you the participants for the 24 hour????????????????????????????????????

#27 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 April 2005 - 04:29 PM

It's obvious that for a mix of yachts and trailables IRC would be best but no-ones gonna have certificates. not worth considering for this race.

So youre gonna have to go off the trailables CBH's as a guide, and try to match this to your local yachts arbitarily. i.e Marlay Point, cbh list on yachting Victorias webpage.

Otherwise record times at the end of each of the first two laps. and never mention it again (after this) publicly to avoid foxing


:ph34r: (edited) now brought to light by Frantic theres gonna be a shitload of laps, inform entrants that the lap their TCF/CBH is checked on will be randomly chosen/generated, no foxing !!
Or go the intial tcf from the CBH plus method, at the top here, and cross-check it against a lap time (not a lap with a crew change of course)

#28 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:20 AM

I was considering a system that was calculated from the official sked times.

eg. @ sked 1, boat "Go Fast" has distance travelled @ 36 nm, if this boat is the fastest in that division the "Go Fast" rating is = 1

Sked 1, boat "Go say so" has distance travelled @ 33 nm, rating is = 0.917

Sked 1, boat "Go slow" has distance travelled @ 31 nm, rating is = 0.861

The Handicap based on sked performance, can be based on sked 1, 2 or 3, or even an average of any 2 skeds, it would be at the handicapers descretion.

All yachts then must sail to there rating or better, to figuer in the places.

The yacht racing in that division with a rating of 1, has every opportunity to sail faster than there rating.

Using this system because it's a "distance travelled" based h'cap, a winner outright and a winner on corrected can be calculated as well as divisional outright and on corrected time.

Your thoughts?

#29 bfp

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:40 AM

Why not just give each boat a handicap, divide them up into divisions and send them off racing.

Then just announce the course for each class depending on the progress each fleet is making, to get the fleet to sail close to 24 hours.

When everyone has finished, divide the average speed for each boat by their handicap and see who was fastest, to get an overall winner.

Take the times at set gates if you are going to use the info. Scheds are manipulated regularly.
The system of changing handicapping through the race is open to abuse. Everyone should know where they stand before they go out to race. Much less complaining.

The idea of swapping crew is interesting. It would almost be self limiting as to the type of boats in the race, if you had to keep the same crew for the race. You would find it a lot harder to get suitable crew to keep the boat going for 24 hours, without a rest, on some of the sportsboats. Bit tippy to sleep!

#30 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:52 AM

The idea of swapping crew is interesting. It would almost be self limiting as to the type of boats in the race, if you had to keep the same crew for the race. You would find it a lot harder to get suitable crew to keep the boat going for 24 hours, without a rest, on some of the sportsboats. Bit tippy to sleep!

Why not make a time penalty for each crew swap? eg: 15 minutes penalty (plus the time it takes you to get in and out) each time you crew change.

Keeps the crew-changing tactical.

#31 bfp

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 03:05 AM

[quote name='duncan (the other one)' date='Apr 18 2005, 02:52 AM'] [/QUOTE]
Why not make a time penalty for each crew swap? eg: 15 minutes penalty (plus the time it takes you to get in and out) each time you crew change.

Keeps the crew-changing tactical. [/quote]
Perfect

#32 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 07:49 AM

Well folks, see what happens when you walk around with your mouth open - ?

[I]You catch Flies don't you!

Seriously though, welcome Sailing - World. I'll look forward to your input with respect to the 24 hour.

#33 tbm

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 08:22 AM

Its interesting that sail-worlds office is only 20 klms south of toronto,
I would have thought that they would run more stories about local events on the lake? Do they need some stories or news to try and premote the lake as one of the best spots on east coast to sail?

#34 macca

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 10:33 AM

Lake Keepit had (maybe still has?) a 12 hour race from midday to midnight, was awesome fun. Entry was open to all boats including OTB cats and dinghys, all boats had to have lights etc.

It would be awesome to have an OTB class, you would get heaps of numbers and you could run that part like they do the 24hr mountain bike races, teams can enter and share the laps. Safety might be an issue though... but with PFD's and lights what else could you want??

#35 tbm

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 10:35 AM

can u please explain btw im only a dumb c..t

#36 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 10:41 AM

Back to the matter at hand,

The aspect of having crew changes, we could do that, and the change over could possible be at Wangi, at the Public wharf (Depends on water needed though) otherwize from Mannering Park Wharf (Good depth there), except not far enough out of the way. Additional time penalties would have to be given.

Bfp/ one of the great black holes, that all race organisers face is how to create a competitive race and amongst all be fair.

When the handicap system is determined and believe me it's up to you guys to decide, it will be at the handicappers discretion as to a result.

#37 Chris 249

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:05 AM

It sounds awesome HCW. I think you said you'll try to get older/slower boats in as well? That would be great, NSW needs something like the Marlay Point but even better and you've picked a great venue. Imagine everything from TS16s and Flying 15s to Frantic and SBs, all in the same event. Totally great.

LMYC used to do an overnight 12 hour race or 50 miler or something. We did it two-up in an Adams 10 and it was great fun except for the fact that they didn't put any lights on the marks and we were leading the fleet and tight reaching as we sailed the zig-zag legs across the northern end. Those *&^%$#@ behind just cut the corner and caught us each time we got lost on the first lap.

As Macca says, what about OTB boats? Maybe they'd have to pass stringent safety requirements, ie highly experienced crews only. We used to have a 24 hour teams race on Windsurfers and some guys did the whole thing themselves! You'd be hard pressed to get into significant trouble on the lake.

The 16s did a 24 hour Laser teams race a few years back so there's a precedent.

Sunshine wharf is another possible for crew changes for boats under about 7' draft from memory, isn't it?

#38 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:23 AM

Sorry folks, had to put the kids to bed.

The example I gave, would give each boat a TCF based on what they are sailing right now, not what they did last week or last month.

Each sportsboat and fixed "Lead" mine has it's favourite conditions, a flexible Handicap System will level the playing field in theory.

Take for example, a Young 780 MK III or IV for that matter will do a horizon job on most fleets up to 5 knots of true wind.

Over 24 hours hopefully, you will get variable wind strengths, and the Young 780's advantage in the really light stuff is then negated by the traditonal N/east Seabreeze that filters it's way down the Lake from about 2pm and fades at around 10 pm.

I am not a fan of knowing where I'm going to finish before I've even started, and I'll always encourage my crew especially my inexperienced, and the Children I teach, to just do your best and the results will come.

Prize wize, the "Heaven can Wait" will be one of the better regatta's to win, trust me, and I think the best result is the boat that sails the best with what it has.

Macca, brought up an interesting point regarding OTB boats, as there is no real night time traffic on Lake Macquarie, a thousand OTB'es running around the Lake at 2 or 3 in the morning with torches, sounds like good fun, however legistically it is a nightmare so far as "Support" goes. If the fleet is hit by a "Storm" those yachts entered, should as a rule be able to handle themselves. The Support is mainly there to give assistance, should any yachts run into trouble, as for OTB'es we would have no chance.

The OTB idea has some merit, however a lot more on the support side will have to be considered.

#39 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:41 AM

It may be the concept, but the "Heaven can Wait" has it's second unofficial starter, and you sportsboat guys are going to love this.

A Farr 50 from Sydney, and a little birdie has told me the owner has already booked accommodation locally. The little birdie won't tell me who it is. I guess we'll all have to wait.

#40 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:45 AM

we did the LMYC 50miler on the D44 this year and at the end checked the log on the instruments and found that the so called "50 miles" was actually 26miles, now if i recall correctly the course we sailed was...

Start in Belmont bay
Belmont (S)
Wangi RSL(P)
Marks Pt (S)
Shingle Splitters(S)
around the eastern end of Pulbah island
then to a mark at sunshine (P)
back round the eastern end of pulbah
Coon Island(near the end of aeropelican runway to port)
Fishing Pt(S)
then back to the finish at belmont

we did the non spin div but the spin boats went from fishing point to marks point then to toronto then back to the finish, so there is no way even the spin boats did i 50mile course

so it would have to b lotsa laps of that lake to last 24hrs... i think id b pretty dizzy(or drunk) by the end of it all...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm IM IN FOR SURE!!!

wat were the dates for the proposed trial of this event and the actual event again??

#41 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 11:59 AM

Hey Gooooorn,

Did you get dizzy from that race or what?

The distance as the crow would fly with a slight chicanne in the middle is 26 nm from Mannering Park to Warners bay and back.

I think that one of the stand out features of having a reasonably straight forward course, could you imagine a spinnaker run from Warners bay to Mannering with 20 - 25 up your B@## and bugger all swell. Sensational..

This October long weekend 2005 is the Trial, October long weekend 2006 is the real deal.

#42 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 12:13 PM

The idea of swapping crew is interesting.  It would almost be self limiting as to the type of boats in the race, if you had to keep the same crew for the race.  You would find it a lot harder to get suitable crew to keep the boat going for 24 hours, without a rest, on some of the sportsboats.  Bit tippy to sleep!

Why not make a time penalty for each crew swap? eg: 15 minutes penalty (plus the time it takes you to get in and out) each time you crew change.

Keeps the crew-changing tactical.

!! 15 minutes !! try 2mins or none !!

there will already be a disincentive cos of the time it takes to sail beyond the turn/lap bouy say 150mtrs and back out !! Already a stop/go penalty in 24hr motor racing parlance! why MORE ??

this point could be the start/finish, a second option (say east and west sides of lake ) could be considered for crew change, but under official observer.

p.s no alcohol affected crew get back on ship, no lifelines = PFD worn,
get Vol coast patrol to do on-water work plus club boat from all Lake participating clubs, put a strobe light on 'sunken rock'

#43 Chris 249

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 12:32 PM

Please, please, please, not arbitrary handicap only.

I can understand that you want to give "each boat a TCF based on what they are sailing right now, not what they did last week or last month". But that means that a shit-hot boat sailed really badly by a bunch of guys who couldn't be bothered to hike, trim, learn tactics, scrub the bottom or get their heads out of their arses will end up with a great handicap. OTOH, a bunch of really keen kids who work themselves to death, carefully scrub the hull and sail hard will end up having a really tough time. Every time they get better, they just get hammered again.

Why make it hard for the people who actually try hard and sail well, and make it easy on those who don't give a toss?

It's bloody frustrating when you see keen young crews working hard and ending up giving time to much faster boats that are years newer and 5' longer, but are badly sailed.

I can understand the concept of "just do your best and the results will come" but a pure arbitrary system gives those who DON'T do their best just as much chance as anyone who DOES do their best by sailing well and working hard. Just look at the arbitrary results sometimes applied to OD regattas, the good hard-working sailors who think and hike their guts out get beaten on handicap by those who just veg out on the side and talk about their share options, or haven't bothered to train.

Great regatta idea but please have a PHRF/CBH/yardstick system as well as arbitrary.

#44 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 12:32 PM

GybeSet,

I mentioned something about crew changes possibly from Wangi or Mannering Park, however bar putting a dirty great barge in the middle of the Lake, we somewhat limited by convienent facilities.

Agree with totally about being sobber when it's your turn to go, also I think we may have to follow T/S lead for trailerables and multi's with respect to PFD's.

Sunken Rock a problem, however The Volunteer Coastal Patrol are quite excited about the propect. Part of the race entry fee's will be given to the VCP for there assistance.

As for other clubs, I'm trying to keep the initial proposal quite simple for now.

As for the rounding marks, you'll be able to see them from Sydney, the way they're going to be lit up. Should be able to see Northern Mark from East Side of Pulbah and South mark from West side of Pulbah.

#45 Lanson

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 12:38 PM

!! 15 minutes !! try 2mins or none !!

there will already be a disincentive cos of the time it takes to sail beyond the turn/lap bouy say 150mtrs and back out !! Already a stop/go penalty in 24hr motor racing parlance! why MORE ??

this point could be the start/finish, a second option (say east and west sides of lake ) could be considered for crew change, but under official observer.

p.s no alcohol affected crew get back on ship, no lifelines = PFD worn,
get Vol coast patrol to do on-water work plus club boat from all Lake participating clubs, put a strobe light on 'sunken rock'

have to agree, with 15 mins penalty there's little chance for a fresh crew to make up that much... 2 mins is more realistic.

24 hours isn't an extreme amount of time to stay awake.

One other issue that I thought of was the issue of dropping crews during the light air times (eg sailing with half crew during the night), any restrictions on that?

#46 macca

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 12:44 PM

Go the OTB!!! The Vol coastal patrol would cover if the shit hit the fan, plus you should only accept entries from crews/teams that can demonstrate they have the required experience. We have to do it for the Short Handed Assoc so it should be ok for this race.

If the aim is to raise $$$ then the OTB component would be a huge boost to the potential funds raised.

Imagine 50 or so Lasers, 20 odd F18 cats and maybe even some of those skiff things belting around all night!

Lights are easy sorted, you could even have a rule that required VHF's on all boats.

#47 Heaven can wait

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 01:47 PM

Firstly Chris 249,

You Mentioned arbitory Handicap only. not...?

The system that I mentioned previously, is to be used as a guide - we can quite easily cross reference with Victorian PHRF/CBH/ Yardstick, however using the current rating given to my Young 780 .906, I would struggle to get anywhere near that.

What would the "Heaven can Wait" 24 hour be without Heaven......?

Macca, I am somewhat restricted by Category requirements, for insurance purposes, I would never forgive myself if a 50 footer ran over a capsized OTB at night.

As for raising $$$$, this is a truly special race as we're all raising money for Cancer as you know, and for being relative, the Race is being organised by a person who has Cancer. "Heaven can Wait" is not by chance, that's exactly where I was last year, and I live with it every day.

It's probably pertinant to tell the World why a 24 hour. Whilst I was in hospital having Chemo, I frequently spoke with a retired Merchant Seaman, undergoing similar treatment, and he spoke of a comparision and my heart almost sunk in to my neither regions when I was made aware of his story.

Being diagnosed with Cancer is a bit like the start of an Offshore Yacht Race, you run around filled with adrenalin, can I do this, am I going to make it, and as you sail into the darkness of reality, the only difference is for the weary Sailer, the Sun will rise in the morning.

The Merchant Seaman died a week later, during the night!

I'm sorry to bring the discussion down but, aside from my own condition, this race is also in memory for those who didn't make it, and we are all affected.

#48 Norm

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 02:53 PM

What about non spinn charter/division for someone to come up to the lake and charter a yacht ?

#49 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 18 April 2005 - 03:21 PM

!! 15 minutes !! try 2mins  or none !!

there will already be a disincentive cos of the time it takes to sail beyond the turn/lap bouy say 150mtrs and back out !! Already a stop/go penalty in 24hr motor racing parlance! why MORE ??

this point could be the start/finish, a second option (say east and west sides of lake ) could be considered for crew change, but under official observer.

p.s no alcohol affected crew get back on ship, no lifelines = PFD worn,
get Vol coast patrol to do on-water work plus club boat from all Lake participating clubs, put a strobe light on 'sunken rock'

have to agree, with 15 mins penalty there's little chance for a fresh crew to make up that much... 2 mins is more realistic.

24 hours isn't an extreme amount of time to stay awake.

One other issue that I thought of was the issue of dropping crews during the light air times (eg sailing with half crew during the night), any restrictions on that?

Sounds like that wharf to change crews will be off the rhumbline sufficiently to be a massive penalty in itself given two marks in the course.

crew one-for-one like other 24/12 hr races lemans bathurst ?! lake keepit kool, or football interchange for that matter.

Given north south marks sunken rock should be sufficiently 'off course'

Where is race control located ? interchange could be co-ordinated from there with RIB.

24 hrs a long time if you have to physicaly sail it, without a degree of lead-belliness.

.905 is for the fastest of the y780's not all of em, in any case it is wrong and needs to be backed off to parity with E780, I can't believe where it is which MK version is yours

#50 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 12:07 AM

Hey Gooooorn,

Did you get dizzy from that race or what?

The distance as the crow would fly with a slight chicanne in the middle is 26 nm from Mannering Park to Warners bay and back.

I think that one of the stand out features of having a reasonably straight forward course, could you imagine a spinnaker run from Warners bay to Mannering with 20 - 25 up your B@## and bugger all swell. Sensational..

This October long weekend 2005 is the Trial, October long weekend 2006 is the real deal.

its good wen you say it like that, but remember after the run you have to turn around and go back upwind in 20-25knots for 26miles, and if thats the wind strength i can gaurantee you there will b swell on the lake. if for example it was blowing from the South thats about 26miles of fetch the waves have to build up in between mannering park and warners bay, and with warners bay being a farily shallow part of the lake it will lump up even more in there, the same with the bit of water between the southern end of wangi point and the eastern tip of pulbah, fuck all water and lots of wind through there makes it very lumpy and you could imagine how fun that wouldnt b at midnite in a T8 at midnight

and no didnt get dizzy in the 50mile race, didnt even get drunk either, so double bugger

#51 Heaven can wait

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 06:06 AM

GybeSet - Young 780 MK III Cr.

Unfortunately, that rating is why I'm struggling to consider the prospect of dragging the boat up north to compete in some regatta's.

Fully blown pro - boats have stuffed it for us "Humble" Folk I'm Afraid.

Norm, if there's a charter boat for hire that are available on the Lake, go for it. Just read the fine print on your charterer's agreement though. I think sailing at night and racing a problem?

*News to hand, several Large Company's interested in sponsoring the event.

*Prospect of New Car for lucky punter............!

*Australian Major Sailing Mags to hop on board, and promote Event, very close to home for some of them.

Quote from prospective race sponsor "This is the Race NSW's Has to have".

*Handicapping will be overseen by NSWYA.

#52 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 07:15 AM

GybeSet - Young 780 MK III Cr.

Unfortunately, that rating is why I'm struggling to consider the prospect of dragging the boat up north to compete in some regatta's.

Fully blown pro - boats have stuffed it for us "Humble" Folk I'm Afraid.

Norm, if there's a charter boat for hire that are available on the Lake, go for it. Just read the fine print on your charterer's agreement though. I think sailing at night and racing a problem?

*News to hand, several Large Company's interested in sponsoring the event.

*Prospect of New Car for lucky punter............!

*Australian Major Sailing Mags to hop on board, and promote Event, very close to home for some of them.

Quote from prospective race sponsor "This is the Race NSW's Has to have".

*Handicapping will be overseen by NSWYA.

nsw ya would hopefully take it from those who know that a Y780 aint gonna drag off a E780 and drop it down .005 below the 'E' tcf, which is a much more recent validated figure.

Would Se Qld guys 'gone troppo' the 'E'; and Rush the 'Y' agree with that figure. ???????

Comment from the sandringham 'y780' ??
This is the real evidence.

was there ever a time when Y780's were regularly trashing E780's , I dont recall ?, didn't Eickmeyer trade up to an E as as newer faster option with the 'Hot to Trot' line of s/bs ?????

#53 Chris 249

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 07:16 AM

How are they going to do the handicapping?

This could be the spur to create something we really need; a good PHRF / yardstick type system for all yachts. IRC costs too much and arbitrary is only there to spread the prizes around, as the guys who design the most popular systems say it does NOT in any way reward good sailors.

Charles (?) Maclurcan used to run a Sydney-wide system and RSYS system and IIRC he could identify boats by their design. The whole of Port Phillip runs under VYC which also identifies boats by their design.

Last time I spoke to Charles (?) and the guy who ran VYC (which was a looooong time ago) they were quite happy for their databases to be the basis of a PHRF / yardstick type system. There are also many boats that seem like "orphans" that you can find good reliable ratings for. Just about any French, German, American, Scandawegian, or British design has a fairly reliable rating under HN, German yardstick, PHRF, LYS, ECHO, IRC or Portsmouth and it's easy to relate them.

By using plenty of figures, you even out the dumb ones. OK, some ratings are stupid (Rocket in NSW, for example). BUT, if you do the normal thing with statistics and try to get more data that changes; for example the South Australia CBH for the Rocket with masthead kite is .83, with a frac kite it's .805. Ross 780 is .795. In NZ, the Rocket rates slower than the Ross (!) So if we averaged all the CBHs we'd end up with something pretty reasonable for the Rocket. Lots of other politically-inspired ratings would be made reasonable the same way.

And OK, so the ratings won't be perfect. But it's better than the alternative. If it's an arbitrary system, the hot, hard-driving sailor with a Rocket will have no more chance than a bunch of drunken bums. If a bunch of guys on a T8 are always crap, their arbitrary handicap will drop until the Rocket guys can beat them home by an hour and still get done on arbitrary. That's just bullshit. The most deserving crew (those who sail best, try hardest) have no more chance to win than anyone else and that's what the guys who design the arbitrary systems say themselves.

If a PHRF type handicap is say 1 or 2 % off, the well sailed Rocket will still beat most boats and it will have an outside chance of an overall win; only an outside chance, but under arbitrary it will have no more chance than anyone else.

Sorry to veer the thread off, I just flew this kite a bit a while ago in some ears (hmmm, mixed metaphor) and didn't get anywhere with it. It sounds like something we could do with. As HCW says, at the moment we get boats thrown on the junkheap once they are a bit off the pace 'cause the handicapping is so crap there's no thrill in getting an older boat, sailing well and being giant killers.

Port Hacking has a CBH type system. It's not great, it's always going to be political in such a small scene, but perhaps it's one reason the fleet is doing well there.

#54 Heaven can wait

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Posted 19 April 2005 - 12:42 PM

Chris 249,

I seemingly, have worked my way into a corner here, my work load for the 24 Hour Race organisation has just increased 10 fold as of today, with the first of a number of Companies looking to commit to sponsoring the Race. All good really.

Because of the nature of this race, Sponsors are looking to provide quite generously to the result of this race.

"This is the Race NSW has to have!"

However, what ever I do or what ever I say about the Handicapping of this event I am going to get slammed by someone.

Seriously, Chris would you consider an advisory role regarding the race, I can't do it all myself, and I'm serious about having this race as one of the great attractions of the Sailing Calender. What a fantastic excuse to go sailing, and it's all for a good cause.

This race is for anyone and everyone who desire's the challenges of the sport within one of the more picturesque stretches of water in NSW.

I'm dissapointed that domestically our sailing authorities have forgotten about the older designs, todays "snake", is tomorrows "snale", just look at the Mt Gay 30's. When they first hit the drink, they were the 30 footer to have, today only five or six years later, I can belt one with a T7. And with todays handicapping many of these boats are still running with 5 or 6 Year old rating's.

Just to extentuate this example, the Young 780 that races with a "Rockstar" fleet, will always end up with a totally different rating than the Young 780 that races with "Back Water Hill Billies". Is this not the status - quo?

It's all relative and thats the problem.

#55 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:14 PM

Eickmeyer never had a Mark III Young 780.

Mark III Young 780, and E780 were very similiar in performance.

#56 Heaven can wait

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:42 PM

Young 3, slightly better in slop and not round - up as much.

Those .90 something rating's were given to the 2 Young MK IV's - Full Carbon lay up hulls, longer keel, taller rig, bigger kites etc..

Eichmeyer campaigned Elliot 780 MK II, then Lyons 8m, then sailed on everyone elses boat, because it's cheaper.

He, recently did sail mod's for Victorian T980, now a "Rockstar", look at the Sandringham scoreboard.

#57 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, he didn't like the Lyons 8.

But, he got the Lyons 8 because he liked the Lyons 750

#58 Heaven can wait

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:54 PM

You had one didn't Lyon's that is?

#59 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:00 PM

yep, had the original

#60 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:01 PM

that should be, still have the original

#61 Heaven can wait

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:14 PM

We'll have to get Y'ol "Wicked" thing up on the Lake doing the 24 hour thing, you in?

#62 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:22 PM

Unfortunately she's been sitting on her trailer at my brothers house for a couple of years, and is in serious need of a rerigging, and at least a new main.

Besides, there is still too much infighting in the class, and the rules/and handicapping still don't seem to have been sorted out.

I'm happy enough to continue racing formula for a while, it's much quicker!

#63 Heaven can wait

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:29 PM

What formula 1 race boats? The "Stink" variety?

Just back on the 24 hr, the trailerables whilst very welcome, the purpose of this race is compete against other classes, under a handicap system that shall reward good sailing - not boats designed to a rating.

#64 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:31 PM

Formula Windsurfing.

Eicky also had a T8 after the L8.

#65 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:45 PM

Eickmeyer never had a Mark III Young 780.

Mark III Young 780, and E780 were very similiar in performance.

thats just the point; why the big diff in CBH then ??
E=.865 , Y780mkIII-.890

did Ike have any Y780 ?

Ly750 , thats alot of boat sitting around, could race outside of TY stupid rules, ie yacht races, cyca winters ??

#66 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 01:50 PM

I thought he had a Mark II? Rapid Transit?, but that was before my time.

E780 use to to be .880

.865 is what the E770 use to rate

#67 Heaven can wait

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 02:00 PM

Sorry Chris, forgot about "Way too Hot to Trot".

Thommo keeps reminding me about it. Think it lives in Tassie now?

Formula Windsurfing - No "Assy's" on them.

GybeSet, long time no hear? AVID sends his regards.

Eik - never had a Young. 2 MK IV's "Flaps" and "Rush" competed against Hot 2 Trot E 780 MK 2 and "2 Hot 2 Trot" L8. "2 Hot 2 Trot 2" T8, I think that's right isn't it Chris?

You're right though, too many Zip Zip Boats keeping the Garage company unfortunately.

How to fix this? (Fine them)

#68 Chris T

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 02:22 PM

That looks about right, but I'm still pretty sure there was some version of a Young 780 before the original Hot 2 Trot

#69 Heaven can wait

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 03:20 AM

Not sure chris, if he ever had a Young, I'm just working off some pretty old Aussie Sailing Mag's.

What ever happened to "Trailer Sailer" Mag?

Anyway to one and all, this race is as a result of a huge "Negative" for me, I only hope that we can all make this a "Positive" for all concerned.

I'm hopeful that as I'm directly involved in the evolution of the "sportsboat", SBA will nut out a happy middle ground with respect to handicapping, Categories, and how the race should unfold.

But the bottomline is it's up to you guy's to work out what you want to do within a 24 hour time frame, so I can run with this, before it goes out as a press release in the near future.

This race is not aimed at any one class or genre, it is aimed at appreciating what all of us have, and that is the ability to sail competitively.

Find me another inshore overnight Yacht race in Australia that can accommodate boats from 20 foot to 50 plus.

And if your that way inclined you can always organize "take away" from somewhere!

All of your imput is much appreciated, however what would help to make this race a must do, is your input as a committee.

This could be an Aussie East Coast tradition, which I really hope it is, but we need to find common ground and this I want to offer to SBA first, as you all fall outside the sailing mainstream.

I really hope that One Design Associations, Rule driven Associations, and influential Clubs can put aside their agenda's and encourage their members to participate. This race is not designed to stroke any ego's, it's about a disease that affects all of us either directly or indirectly, and how we can all do our bit to ensure if it happens to you, you and your family have the "Best" support.

I will probably never sail Offshore again, as I've lost too many bits, but I can do this, and providing I survive the next twelve plus months, I will be on the start line of a 24 hour race on Lake Macquarie on the long weekend 2006!

So who's if for a challenge to make this thing a success?

#70 Pit Bitch

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 03:50 AM

I'd reckon I can talk my lot into travelling down from BrisVegas. A worthy cause HCW!

Chris - pull your finger out and get that boat back in order - I do recall you guys having heaps of fun one Hamilton Island Race Week.

The politics will only weigh you down if you get too involved in them. Get it back to basics - we all used to scream around the track during the day and scream around the pub at night! What happened? Did we all get too old?

I remember the days of Eickey and the 'Hot to Trot' series - in fact I even have one of the original crew shirts tucked away somewhere - earnt by sailing on the boat I might add.

HCW if you can get the onshore activities (ie the pre/post parties) to be as much fun as the offshore activities - you will have a fantastic race with a fabulous cause with it.

#71 Chris T

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 04:53 AM

Pit Bitch,

I think we did 5 Race weeks, and came as close to winning as you could one year. ie losing on count back.

I'd love to get it back out on the water, but I have something called a mortgage, and the other owner is studying full time right now as well.

One day she'll be back, just can't give you a timeframe.

How did you earn that shirt? There was only two ways to get a shirt on the "Trotter"!

#72 Pit Bitch

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 06:46 AM

Pit Bitch,

I think we did 5 Race weeks, and came as close to winning as you could one year. ie losing on count back.

I'd love to get it back out on the water, but I have something called a mortgage, and the other owner is studying full time right now as well.

One day she'll be back, just can't give you a timeframe.

How did you earn that shirt? There was only two ways to get a shirt on the "Trotter"!

How did I earn the shirt? The same way I earnt all my crew shirts - I sailed on the boats in the regattas. Sorry, not an ocean racer chaser!! So what is the other way of earning one? :unsure:

#73 Chris T

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 08:18 AM

Well I don't have a crew shirt, never raced on the boat, and I'm sure they didn't find me attractive in that sense!

But I could take a reasonable guess at who you are, and can probably confirm that you did crew on the "Trotter", so your reputation is intact!

#74 Heaven can wait

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 12:49 PM

May be we should put a challenge to all of you 7 - 8 - 9 meter boats?

Because the "Heaven can Wait" 24 hour is to be an annual event we should start a log of fastest times for each meter class and have it published.

#75 tbm

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 01:25 AM

the same with the bit of water between the southern end of wangi point and the eastern tip of pulbah, fuck all water and lots of wind through there makes it very lumpy and you could imagine how fun that wouldnt b at midnite in a T8 at midnight


WTF
Hey gorn frantic isn't that the deppest part of lake mac?????

#76 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 04:55 AM

Last time i s/bed thru there was on the sheet of Charley 17 mins ahead of the 920, an 8 and my Kindy, was def fun an smmmooooth sailing I tell ya. at night in breeze would enhance that a little no doubt.

will there be a strobe or flashing light or sumtin on the point of the island HCW we going around clockwise or anti-c/w ??

#77 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:59 AM

the same with the bit of water between the southern end of wangi point and the eastern tip of pulbah, fuck all water and lots of wind through there makes it very lumpy and you could imagine how fun that wouldnt b at midnite in a T8 at midnight


WTF
Hey gorn frantic isn't that the deppest part of lake mac?????

nope, its 1 of the shallowest

#78 Heaven can wait

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 01:26 PM

The Southern side of Pulbah is the deepest part of the lake, From Wangi Point down the "Channel" you have to stay North of the Gas Buoy (Big Yellow One) about 300 meters off northern tip of Pulbah.

Sunken Rock, shall marked in some way either by strobe or single white Light.

Simple rule is to give the Light at Sunken Rock a 100 meter berth!

The Course is much dependant on number of boats entered. intitial projected numbers of up to 500 plus we will split the fleet either by sending North bound Yachts Via, Pt Wollstencroft strait and up the Eastern side of Pulbar or, send North bound Yachts Via West side of Pulbah (Sunken Rock side), with south bound Yachts Vice Versa.

Lake Macquarie under full moon, awesome at night!

#79 Heaven can wait

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:05 PM

Need some input Boys and Girls?

1) We are trying to get together Your "Sportsboat" teams course, need some input as to where your course will ie crew changes?

2) What sort of on - stable - ground entertainment would You "Dudes" like?

3) Entertertainment, which night - Fri or Sun?

4) any idea of who's "Boats" will be entering?

6) We are building a log of Yacht entrant cross sections for Number of Divisions.

Please add any other bit's-n-pieces you may see fit?

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 10:08 AM

Quick observation guys,

The Heaven can Wait 24 hour, could in fact be the first 23 hour - 24 hour Yacht Race in Oz (Daylight saving starts?)

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 01:38 AM

Nice input guys?

Just a quick note to put a bit of the Aussie Scene back on the agenda.

It's your race guys, you tell me how you want to sail it.

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 12:28 AM

We've had some suggestions regarding the Course to be sailed.

One suggestion that has merit for you sportsboat owners is to direct the course around several of the larger bays, namely Toronto, Belmont, Wangi etc...and of course utilizing Pulbah to split the fleet?

One careful consideration is by having more marks to find means less "Sleep" and makes the race a lot more "Full On" for all competitors.

We also have to be mineful of the two "corners" of Lake Macquarie, namely Pulbah and Wangi Point, as when the race progresses we will indelibly have boats travelling in opposite directions competing for the same bit of water.

Your Thoughts?

#83 Chris 249

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:04 AM

What about a leg past Shingle Splitters? That area gets a great NE and a good night westerly IIRC.

When we did the overnighter 2 up on the A10, the course had a zig-zag of about 5 marks from Marks Point north, and the southern section was just around the Island IIRC. It worked OK. One problem was the lack of lights on the marks; even a Lightstick taped to the marks would have made a huge difference.

Could you put 2 marks in the middle of the channel off Wangi, and make south-bound boats pass them one way and north-bound boats pass the other side? It will require some short tacking, perhaps, but the Marlay has a much tighter stretch that people seem to find OK.

#84 couchsurfer

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:24 AM

One problem was the lack of lights on the marks; even a Lightstick taped to the marks would have made a huge difference.

has anyone suggested holding night-races on the full moon??

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:41 AM

Firstly Chris 249, the marks are intended to be the Large Plastimo inflatable type, I think from memory we've got ten to play with. All of these marks will be fitted with strobe lights some 3 - 4 of them and light reflective tape, this will I hope clearly distinguish them apart from navigational marks.

One of the aspects we have considered is trying to keep boats away from the Eastern shore, as you know there is a "Thousand" navigational hazzards namely sand bars and unless you have a plotter some of the deeper draft boats could have problems.

Write down your considerations and I'll give it to the "Boy's" to play with?

Did you recieve my last email - I've had some problems with my server?

Michael - Compwest, funny you should ask about the Full Moon, it looks like the early part of October falls under a Full Moon, which of course will make it a little easier to see!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:47 AM

Michael -  Compwest, funny you should ask about the Full Moon, it looks like the early part of October falls under a Full Moon, which of course will make it a little easier to see!

ah,yes --the full moon night-race---nothing beats the 'mystique' of sailing under a full moon............'cept racin' Sboats under one!!!--and yeh wont need the strobes either!

#87 Heaven can wait

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 01:57 AM

We are "urged" to have the strobes, by our Authorities as they are "Temporary" Navigational obstructions - it's also a hell of a lot easier to plan your next leg of the course, when you can see where you are going to.

#88 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:15 AM

or when the marks are laid take the position with a GPS and post all these on a notice board or give them to skippers as part of the sailing instructions, im sure that in this day in age ppl would be able to borrow a hand held GPS for the race, so that with the strobes on the mark should make them very easy to find

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:25 AM

Hey Gooorn, GPS plotted marks will be part of the sailing instructions, however we have to cater for the general "Joe" doing the race with his or her kids.

For many would be starters, this race will be there first go at night time sailing albeit in sheltered waters and aside from our authorities we are trying to make it easier for all participants.

Have you spoken with "Dougie" about doing the race?

#90 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:40 AM

no, havnt spoken to Doug about it yet, told my old man about it(he's our crew boss) and he seems fairly interested in the idea of the race, so after we get everything sorted with this new boat and we get a lil further down the track and Doug stops going over to NZ each month we'll prolly sit down and talk it all through with him and see wat the crew thinks, u got any sort of written NOR or anything like that at the moment that we can show to him rather than just tell him wats been discussed here???

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:54 AM

Notice of Race is being put together over the next few weeks, we've got a meeting tomorrow night (Tues).

We had to wait for written confirmation from interested parties before we can officially get into the "Swing" of things.

New Boat? what is it?

#92 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:01 AM

Anniversery pack Dufour 44, taller rig, deeper keel i think, and sum other bits and peices that arnt on the standard edition

#93 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:08 AM

re strobes etc "when you can see where you are going "

thats an idea, back to the basics !!!!

I'll have to stop facing backward when tacking !!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:12 AM

Gorn, interested to see how it goes?

Gybset, what are you talking about?

#95 Phil

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:14 AM

He changes hands with the tiller across his front,not behind him,thus he does not look where he's going during a tack.

#96 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:15 AM

Gorn, interested to see how it goes?

Gybset, what are you talking about?

we have a rough idea how it goes as we took 1 to hamilton island last year, but this 1 should perform better than that with the taller rig and getting the right gear in the right places and not having to improvise with a boat which was potentially for sale, delivery for the new rags is the 25th of may so it starts getting more serious after then

#97 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:16 AM

Gorn, interested to see how it goes?

Gybset, what are you talking about?

jus rubbish, actually best helm stunt is to give responsibility spotting things to NOT run into, to the crew ????

Hi Phil, yr onto to me, haha

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 04:32 AM

We'll give you plenty of tiller practice in the 24 hour, what with 500 plus boats, you'd better wear knee pads, and a stack hat!

#99 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 05:09 AM

We'll give you plenty of tiller practice in the 24 hour, what with 500 plus boats, you'd better wear knee pads, and a stack hat!

facing backward is better in a gybe as you can't see the swinging upper mainsheet block arcing toward you !

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 05:22 AM

It also a really good look when the bridle holding the mainsheet onto the boom lets go during the gybe, happy days - not?




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