Jump to content


Steve and Dave Clarks Unidentified Foiling Object

Foiling Week Newport

  • Please log in to reply
722 replies to this topic

#601 RedTuna

RedTuna

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,485 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Interests:Sprints & Wetas

Posted 28 January 2017 - 02:53 PM

Thanks, Dave, for the thorough explanation.  

 

More mature, huh?  Funny man...

 



#602 JimC

JimC

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,012 posts
  • Location:South East England
  • Interests:Dinghies, especially box rule classes.

Posted 28 January 2017 - 04:30 PM

I've wondered about the active sheeting requirement as well.  Might a longer extension stuck under the armpit alleviate some of the tiller jerking?

 

Grief guys, you should be sailing like that on *every* boat. Uffa figured this out back in the 20s, got to play that sheet and keep her flat... Practice practice in your current boat and you'll go faster in that.



#603 Reht

Reht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 30 January 2017 - 12:03 AM

The sheeting is an acquired skill, but by no means is it difficult. If you're worried about trying to learn it on your own in a laser or other single-hander, try it in a double-handed boat. Have the skipper steer a straight course from the tell-tales and you can sheet, ideally keeping the boat flet so nobody has to move their weight for an entire beat. Same idea on a laser, UFO, IC, etc, you just also have to think about steering.



#604 fastyacht

fastyacht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,386 posts

Posted 30 January 2017 - 02:01 AM

You should see my skipper in the 505. Sometimes back when he was little, I had to take over for him due to fatigue. You have to work the sails to keep any proper dinghy going her best. This is no different, fundamentally.



#605 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,567 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 30 January 2017 - 01:58 PM

The sheeting is an acquired skill, but by no means is it difficult. If you're worried about trying to learn it on your own in a laser or other single-hander, try it in a double-handed boat. Have the skipper steer a straight course from the tell-tales and you can sheet, ideally keeping the boat flet so nobody has to move their weight for an entire beat. Same idea on a laser, UFO, IC, etc, you just also have to think about steering.

No one said it was difficult or mysterious, but I've watched Dave's videos and he is very active, I'm not sure how long I could keep up that pace. But he reminded me that the UFO can fly in low mode to learn or take a break, and go into high mode as desired. Looks like the user can choose ride height over many levels if not a continuum.

If any of my remarks are taken as critical of the UFO, it's not intended. I love the boat all considered, something different, a great value proposition, and a bridge to foiling.

#606 Reht

Reht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:10 AM

MidPack, sorry, I meant "difficult" as in it would be difficult for somebody to sustain it. The motion itself is not terribly hard to figure out, certainly not as a reactionary action, seeing and anticipating wind variations takes a little bit of skill. But mostly the "difficult" I'm trying to refer to (and I realize re-reading my post that I could have pointed this out) is that it's actually possible to make the sheeting motion very efficient while still being quick, but figuring out the motion and how to pull for that efficiency is difficult (lots of trial and error). If you learn to do the sheeting on a double handed boat, which often has a higher sheet load than the UFO will, then quick efficient motions will be easier when you get on the UFO.

 

(I don't know if that helps at all or if it just makes things more confusing)



#607 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,567 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:14 AM

Reht: No problem. I can imagine active sheeting on a double handed boat with the other person driving. I can also imagine active sheeting arms length.

Dave is very actively sheeting with hand over hand with both hands while holding on to the tiller (extension), and keeping the tiller and rudder straight.

I'm an old dude...

#608 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:50 AM

Reht: No problem. I can imagine active sheeting on a double handed boat with the other person driving. I can also imagine active sheeting arms length.

Dave is very actively sheeting with hand over hand with both hands while holding on to the tiller (extension), and keeping the tiller and rudder straight.

I'm an old dude...

Observations like this really intrigue me. If I can get an hour away from the supply line stuff and get sailing this week I'm going to take a look at dropping a loop out of the mainsheet. There are some downsides to it (lower mechanical advantage) , but for the slow-handed it may prove a useful short term setup fix. This wouldn't violate the one-design, since it would involve simply moving a knot, rather than adding hardware. While there's no substitute for developing a good quick sheet hand, having viable intermediate ameliorative options may be kinda cool.

DRC
 



#609 fastyacht

fastyacht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,386 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:53 AM

I have sailed 505 with center sheet at both 3:1 and 4:1. I prefer 3:1 because it is faster. Sae thing applies here. Trade strength and speed.

I haven't messed with the canoe sheeting. Same way it was as the Clark's set it up:-)



#610 True North

True North

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 90 posts
  • Location:Dallas, Texas
  • Interests:(Hopeful) Baylor Football

Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:17 PM

It seems to me people are getting too wound up over sheeting. Dave's last video shows him aggressively sheeting when the boat is at full ride height, and the wind is getting up there. The beauty of the UFO is that one does not always have to be sailing at full ride height, so one can work on their sheeting technique, as well as endurance and strength, over time at lower height.

I will be interested to know how sailing with the main in one-to-one trim will work as far as load on the sheet is concerned. My guess is that the load on the sheet won't be insignificant in one-to-one trim, so any gain from slower sheeting will be more than offset by load on the main. But that's just a guess.

I'm not sure which post number it is, but Dave describes how to practice sheeting the UFO while at the office. I for one am going to follow his advice.

 



#611 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:45 PM

i watched the video you guys are talking about...

 

the "active sheeting" is not hugely different than what is needed with a Laser on a windy reach..., if you want to be fast...

 

i'm pretty sure anyone here can figure it out.



#612 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,889 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:18 PM

First, I am so sorry I even briefly mentioned sheeting a page ago.  Never thought it would turn into such a topic or tangent.  Anyone who has ever raced a Laser has hand over handed in much more sheet, while steering around the leeward mark.  I was just surprised at parts of the (much now) earlier UFO video with very active (hand over hand as opposed to arm length) sheeting while holding a course.

 

 

 

Reht: No problem. I can imagine active sheeting on a double handed boat with the other person driving. I can also imagine active sheeting arms length.

Dave is very actively sheeting with hand over hand with both hands while holding on to the tiller (extension), and keeping the tiller and rudder straight.

I'm an old dude...

Observations like this really intrigue me. If I can get an hour away from the supply line stuff and get sailing this week I'm going to take a look at dropping a loop out of the mainsheet. There are some downsides to it (lower mechanical advantage) , but for the slow-handed it may prove a useful short term setup fix. This wouldn't violate the one-design, since it would involve simply moving a knot, rather than adding hardware. While there's no substitute for developing a good quick sheet hand, having viable intermediate ameliorative options may be kinda cool.

DRC
 

 

 

Above is interesting Dave. Doing this from recall but thought you had same mainsheet purchase as a Laser and greater sail area.  Is that correct?  Be curious how removing the loop works out.  Again, sorry for the white noise the topic created.



#613 MidPack

MidPack

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,567 posts
  • Location:undecided

Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:47 PM

First, I am so sorry I even briefly mentioned sheeting a page ago.  Never thought it would turn into such a topic or tangent.  Anyone who has ever raced a Laser has hand over handed in much more sheet, while steering around the leeward mark.  I was just surprised at parts of the (much now) earlier UFO video with very active (hand over hand as opposed to arm length) sheeting while holding a course.

 

Above is interesting Dave. Doing this from recall but thought you had same mainsheet purchase as a Laser and greater sail area.  Is that correct?  Be curious how removing the loop works out.  Again, sorry for the white noise the topic created.

Sorry for my part in the confusion as well. Again, I really like the UFO and I hope it does gangbusters.



#614 RedTuna

RedTuna

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,485 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Interests:Sprints & Wetas

Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:05 PM

I'm old, too, and asking about a potential workaround with a longer tiller extension because my tendons aren't what they once were.  It works pretty well for active sheeting on the Weta.  My elbows hurt enough as it is after a busy day on the water.  I like to have a beer or two afterward, so avoid NSAIDS.



#615 charliepmayer

charliepmayer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 190 posts

Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:25 PM

RT - yes, much better than avoiding the beer.



#616 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:14 AM

Small woman here will be leaving the magic knot in. And is not worried. I'm more worried about the class being stable, production, etc.

#617 Tink

Tink

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 99 posts
  • Location:North East England
  • Interests:Sailing and boat building

Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:07 AM

i watched the video you guys are talking about...
 
the "active sheeting" is not hugely different than what is needed with a Laser on a windy reach..., if you want to be fast...
 
i'm pretty sure anyone here can figure it out.


The UFO has a wishbone boom, on a laser most of the sheet tension is used to control sail shape which requires a lot of effort. Simply not needed with a wish bone.

#618 Tink

Tink

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 99 posts
  • Location:North East England
  • Interests:Sailing and boat building

Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:11 AM

Small woman here will be leaving the magic knot in. And is not worried. I'm more worried about the class being stable, production, etc.


Fair worry but the team behind the project is strong, Dave's dad is Steve Clark ex owner of vanguard sailboats. If anyone can make this work it is this team. Very passionate, lots of experience but not shackled to some big lumbering corporate machine.

#619 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:24 PM

 

i watched the video you guys are talking about...
 
the "active sheeting" is not hugely different than what is needed with a Laser on a windy reach..., if you want to be fast...
 
i'm pretty sure anyone here can figure it out.


The UFO has a wishbone boom, on a laser most of the sheet tension is used to control sail shape which requires a lot of effort. Simply not needed with a wish bone.

 

 

i wasn't saying the loads would necessarily be the same - just that the rate of trimming and easing.., and the length of sheet trimmed and eased were roughly comparable to what a good laser sailor does on a windy reach

 

i was trying to counter the notion, expressed up-thread -  that the video shows that some sort of super-human sheeting ability is needed. it doesn't look that different to what any reasonably skilled dinghy sailor does all the time



#620 True North

True North

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 90 posts
  • Location:Dallas, Texas
  • Interests:(Hopeful) Baylor Football

Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:43 PM

Mosey on over to Fulcrum Speedworks' FB page.  Dave has pics of the molds being waxed.  Pretty exciting!



#621 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,017 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 03 February 2017 - 05:51 PM

 

Reht: No problem. I can imagine active sheeting on a double handed boat with the other person driving. I can also imagine active sheeting arms length.

Dave is very actively sheeting with hand over hand with both hands while holding on to the tiller (extension), and keeping the tiller and rudder straight.

I'm an old dude...

Observations like this really intrigue me. If I can get an hour away from the supply line stuff and get sailing this week I'm going to take a look at dropping a loop out of the mainsheet. There are some downsides to it (lower mechanical advantage) , but for the slow-handed it may prove a useful short term setup fix. This wouldn't violate the one-design, since it would involve simply moving a knot, rather than adding hardware. While there's no substitute for developing a good quick sheet hand, having viable intermediate ameliorative options may be kinda cool.

DRC
 

 

 

A fair bit of moths have shock cord loops to the tiller. Maybe the 50 cent solution to the issue for some peeps....



#622 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:44 PM

 

 

Reht: No problem. I can imagine active sheeting on a double handed boat with the other person driving. I can also imagine active sheeting arms length.

Dave is very actively sheeting with hand over hand with both hands while holding on to the tiller (extension), and keeping the tiller and rudder straight.

I'm an old dude...

Observations like this really intrigue me. If I can get an hour away from the supply line stuff and get sailing this week I'm going to take a look at dropping a loop out of the mainsheet. There are some downsides to it (lower mechanical advantage) , but for the slow-handed it may prove a useful short term setup fix. This wouldn't violate the one-design, since it would involve simply moving a knot, rather than adding hardware. While there's no substitute for developing a good quick sheet hand, having viable intermediate ameliorative options may be kinda cool.

DRC
 

 

 

A fair bit of moths have shock cord loops to the tiller. Maybe the 50 cent solution to the issue for some peeps....

 

Probably a decent idea for those afraid of wiggling. Just to share, it's disturbing how well the boat tracks of it's own accord when heeled to weather. I've played around a couple times with letting go of the tiller completely and just hanging in the straps and being the crew while the boat steers itsself. It's very eerie how long it will behave itsself for when I do this. It likely has to do with how neutral the struts are at that heel angle.

DRC



#623 BrianM

BrianM

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Near 36 56N 076 18W
  • Interests:International Moths, big grey ships, and things with strings.

Posted 04 February 2017 - 12:22 PM

A fair bit of moths have shock cord loops to the tiller. Maybe the 50 cent solution to the issue for some peeps....

Probably a decent idea for those afraid of wiggling. Just to share, it's disturbing how well the boat tracks of it's own accord when heeled to weather. I've played around a couple times with letting go of the tiller completely and just hanging in the straps and being the crew while the boat steers itsself. It's very eerie how long it will behave itsself for when I do this. It likely has to do with how neutral the struts are at that heel angle.
DRC

Except that the moth does that mostly for capsize recovery. Much easier to get back onboard (water start) if the tiller self-centers - that way the boat tracks in a straight line and pulls you up. Otherwise, it's likely to round up and re-capsize as you try to drag in. Not intended to be a damper on movement while on foils.

But, just like Dave says, there is a huge difference between a balanced boat and a non-balanced boat. If you get a moth set up right (heel, fore/aft balance, foil height) the tiller goes pretty light. You _could_ let go, but I've never been willing to try it.

It really comes down to learning a lighter touch. Up flying at 20+ kts, with the fairly short wheelbase that comes with foils, the same amount of rudder motion that works well for a conventional boat puts you deep into PIO (pilot-induced oscillations) on a foiler. Movement leads to counter leads to overcorrection leads to eject and crash. One must play with the waggle-stick very gently.

#624 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,017 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 04 February 2017 - 02:38 PM

 

 

A fair bit of moths have shock cord loops to the tiller. Maybe the 50 cent solution to the issue for some peeps....

Probably a decent idea for those afraid of wiggling. Just to share, it's disturbing how well the boat tracks of it's own accord when heeled to weather. I've played around a couple times with letting go of the tiller completely and just hanging in the straps and being the crew while the boat steers itsself. It's very eerie how long it will behave itsself for when I do this. It likely has to do with how neutral the struts are at that heel angle.
DRC

 

Except that the moth does that mostly for capsize recovery. Much easier to get back onboard (water start) if the tiller self-centers - that way the boat tracks in a straight line and pulls you up. Otherwise, it's likely to round up and re-capsize as you try to drag in. Not intended to be a damper on movement while on foils.

But, just like Dave says, there is a huge difference between a balanced boat and a non-balanced boat. If you get a moth set up right (heel, fore/aft balance, foil height) the tiller goes pretty light. You _could_ let go, but I've never been willing to try it.

It really comes down to learning a lighter touch. Up flying at 20+ kts, with the fairly short wheelbase that comes with foils, the same amount of rudder motion that works well for a conventional boat puts you deep into PIO (pilot-induced oscillations) on a foiler. Movement leads to counter leads to overcorrection leads to eject and crash. One must play with the waggle-stick very gently.

 

 

Fully agree. This is for the guys who may need to drop the stick for a second for a big sheet in. A tiny bit of dampening in the system is great for peace of mind and fun foiling. Helping in a wipeout is an added bonus. One less excuse for guys on the fence.....



#625 charliepmayer

charliepmayer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 190 posts

Posted 04 February 2017 - 06:58 PM

mr_ryano:

I fully agree with your comments on tiller movement.  My limited experience foiling and documenting others foiling shows that oversteering makes for great video clips.  Even world-class sailors make this mistake when learning: see http://www.foilingwe...a-f20-training/  and https://3.bp.blogspo...6-F20Melvin.jpg.

 

Most of the amateurs that sailed my boats did the same thing - me included.  The boat can turn faster than your body can follow.  That happens at 20 knots on a boat with a short foilbase (a new word I made up - analogous to wheelbase).

 

As I've seen others do in this and other foiling forums, I "invented" many problems while anticipating my new foiling adventure - only to find that many of my earlier concerns were unfounded or very minor - but I did discover, in practice, a complete set of new issues that I had not anticipated.  I suspect the sheeting, steering, chop, and other issues we read about here will continue to be entertaining to discuss, but rather routine in practice.

 

Anyway, still fun, eh?

Charlie



#626 Dex Sawash

Dex Sawash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 826 posts
  • Location:NC USA
  • Interests:stuff

Posted 04 February 2017 - 09:26 PM


 
a short foilbase (a new word I made up - analogous to wheelbase).
 

Charlie


I like "close-coupled" works for dogs, horses, etc too

#627 t.rex

t.rex

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 88 posts
  • Location:sum over histories
  • Interests:paragliding sailing hiking reading - not guns

Posted 06 February 2017 - 10:18 PM

Hi Dave and Steve,

 

First of all, my compliments for combining the major breakthroughs in sailboat design and construction for the last 150 years in a unique and new vision. From you two, we don't expect less.

 

I couldn't help but notice that the dimensions of the UFO are roughly that of an inflatable dinghy. The volume is less (catamaran) and the weight is much less. So I have a few questions regarding the possibility of using the boat as a tender.

 

1) Is it unsinkable?

2) Does it tow well (and where do you attach the tow lines)?

3) Can you stand up and paddle (SUP)?

4) Can you row it?

5) Will it make it to shore in calm water with 2 FABs?

6) the $64 question ... an outboard?

X) I don't care what it rates.

 

P.S.  I couldn't easily find the dimensions; LOA? Beam?

 

mark



#628 Reht

Reht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:36 AM


P.S.  I couldn't easily find the dimensions; LOA? Beam?

 

See the bottom of the page: http://www.fulcrumsp...m/UFO/overview/

 

 

 

  • 105 inch waterline length + 15 inch rudder gantry
  • 67 inch beam
  • 50 kg all-up ready to sail weight

     



#629 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:40 AM

Hi Dave and Steve,
 
First of all, my compliments for combining the major breakthroughs in sailboat design and construction for the last 150 years in a unique and new vision. From you two, we don't expect less.
 
I couldn't help but notice that the dimensions of the UFO are roughly that of an inflatable dinghy. The volume is less (catamaran) and the weight is much less. So I have a few questions regarding the possibility of using the boat as a tender.
 
1) Is it unsinkable?
2) Does it tow well (and where do you attach the tow lines)?
3) Can you stand up and paddle (SUP)?
4) Can you row it?
5) Will it make it to shore in calm water with 2 FABs?
6) the $64 question ... an outboard?
X) I don't care what it rates.
 
P.S.  I couldn't easily find the dimensions; LOA? Beam?
 
mark


I'm flattered! Here's a few answers:

1. Yup
2. It can
3. Yes. Done it. Worlds stables SUP
4. The ergonomics are all wrong for that
5. No way in hell. One FAB is the limit.
6. It would need to be a very small outboard

I actually get a real kick out of using it as a SUP.

DRC

#630 fastyacht

fastyacht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,386 posts

Posted 07 February 2017 - 03:24 AM

you could wrow ti Venitian style:

 

Attached Files



#631 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 07 February 2017 - 02:46 PM

Better have a long tail outboard. Why use an ufo if not for foiling. I guess, a Thai long tail boat engine would be just right. 

 

Attached File  LongTail.jpg   108.76KB   2 downloads



#632 moxie

moxie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 229 posts

Posted 08 February 2017 - 07:08 PM

How much water depth do you need?



#633 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 08 February 2017 - 07:50 PM

How much water depth do you need?

Roughly 50 inches. Though, thanks to the wand being built onto the strut and located forward of the rig, you can foil with the struts reefed. It requires a five minute modification to the mainfoil strut with a 1/4 inch drillbit. At the limit of reefed foiling, you can fly with about 20 inches of water, though not really at all points of sail. That's too shallow to gain windward heel and not enough strut in the water to generate sideforce. Skitters like a banshee downwind, though. Another extremely odd practical upshot of this is (downwind) it removes so much strut wetted area that it actually significantly decreases the wind required to fly. Really weird but really fun. Modify your foils at your own risk, though. Once you're back at full depth, that hole in the strut is not fast and low profile tyvek take can only solve the problem for a couple uses at a time.

DRC



#634 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,307 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 09 February 2017 - 05:39 PM

foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole?  It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?



#635 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:09 PM

foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole?  It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!

 

Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

 

those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use



#636 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:30 PM

foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole?  It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!
 
Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

 
those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use
Good thing we designed it to get run up a beach

#637 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 09 February 2017 - 06:48 PM

 

 

foil set for the cruising sailor...beefier around the extra hole?  It sure would be an interesting unintended consequence if in five years time these things are standard issue lashed to the bows of the ARC fleet heading for the cruising grounds and they make up half your sales!
 
Then again, what would be a better replacement for 100,000 resort hobie cats and sunfish than the UFO?

 
those boats get run up on the beach every time - and that will not change no matter what boat they use
Good thing we designed it to get run up a beach

 

 

but they have to lift them before running up on the beach - and having watched lot's of rental  beach cat landings.., that's a big ask...

 

i think they will be suitable for some sailors at some locations - and i hope it happens



#638 Merde2

Merde2

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 182 posts

Posted 09 February 2017 - 10:17 PM

The article that was mentioned a while back is now available on the SailingWorld website: http://www.sailingwo...com/ufo-project

 

Quick question, how does the rudder go part way down and can the same system work for the main strut? 



#639 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 11 February 2017 - 12:57 PM

 

Quick question, how does the rudder go part way down and can the same system work for the main strut? 

There's a down-halyard on the rudder with a cleat and a rope tender system for the tail. It'll drop to whatever depth you set it to. To get it to go back up, uncleat it and continue sailing forward at a minimum of ~1.5 knots. The foil will lift itself to the new required degree of withdrawal. I spent a couple eternities in rhino trying to efficiently get the same type of system to work for the mainfoil, but the 'pin through the head' AoA control is a permanent road block. If you add an extra hole you can set the foil to that, sort of like a reef point, but it's not possible to make the system fully continuous.

DRC



#640 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 11 February 2017 - 01:34 PM

so, are you thinking of some kind of demo tour this spring or summer?

 

if interested people are up in newport for a regatta, is there a way to try one?

 

i keep getting told i should buy an Aero, but i think i might rather buy one of these



#641 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,017 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 11 February 2017 - 02:02 PM

so, are you thinking of some kind of demo tour this spring or summer?

 

if interested people are up in newport for a regatta, is there a way to try one?

 

i keep getting told i should buy an Aero, but i think i might rather buy one of these

 

where are you based?



#642 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 11 February 2017 - 05:42 PM

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's



#643 wpbeardsley

wpbeardsley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 314 posts

Posted 13 February 2017 - 02:16 PM

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer.  I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area.  Not sure about others. 



#644 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,811 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:51 PM

 

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer.  I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area.  Not sure about others. 

 

You realize this is not a Sunfish thread? Just checking



#645 robalex117

robalex117

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Location:here and there but mostly WLIS

Posted 14 February 2017 - 09:53 PM

Getting one and will be in Rye.  Also have a waszp and have been happy with that.  But have  a bunch of sailors in the family and always more fun to get out with somebody else than go by yourself so decided to go with the UFO.  Also UFO looks a little easier in the low ride mode.

 

 

 

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer.  I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area.  Not sure about others. 

 



#646 treef

treef

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 121 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 01:54 PM

 

Getting one and will be in Rye.  Also have a waszp and have been happy with that.  But have  a bunch of sailors in the family and always more fun to get out with somebody else than go by yourself so decided to go with the UFO.  Also UFO looks a little easier in the low ride mode.

 

 

 

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

I'll have mine at Larchmont YC for part of the summer.  I think there will be another one up in the Branford, CT area.  Not sure about others. 

 

 

 

There will be two in Southport CT



#647 wpbeardsley

wpbeardsley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 314 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 03:46 PM

The Larchmont one will also spend all of August on Shelter Island for anyone who is on the East End.  Maybe we can get a UFO division together at the HPDO at American YC in October and not have to race Portsmouth Yardstick under a random number that won't have been properly established yet in all likelihood.  



#648 fastyacht

fastyacht

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,386 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 04:56 PM

This is pretty exciting when you think about the idea that you'll have a new Long Island Sound dinghy class this spring, from one end to the other.



#649 Merde2

Merde2

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 182 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 06:59 PM

Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?



#650 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 15 February 2017 - 07:45 PM

Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

DRC



#651 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 07:45 PM

Dave - a couple of questions:

 

what is the minimum windspeed for a good sailor to foil on this boat, and about what TWA would that be?

 

if you were racing one design on a windward/leeward course.., is it going to be the case that anytime you can foil.., you will?

 

or, at lower windspeeds, will the angles at which you can foil be too fat for it to be optimal to foil?

 

if you are going to be racing in displacement-mode at lower windspeeds, at about what windspeed would the crossover be where it's optimal to foil up and down wind?



#652 robalex117

robalex117

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Location:here and there but mostly WLIS

Posted 15 February 2017 - 07:49 PM

I am sure we could.  Just need about five boats.  

The Larchmont one will also spend all of August on Shelter Island for anyone who is on the East End.  Maybe we can get a UFO division together at the HPDO at American YC in October and not have to race Portsmouth Yardstick under a random number that won't have been properly established yet in all likelihood.  



#653 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:11 PM

Dave - a couple of questions:

 

what is the minimum windspeed for a good sailor to foil on this boat, and about what TWA would that be?

 

if you were racing one design on a windward/leeward course.., is it going to be the case that anytime you can foil.., you will?

 

or, at lower windspeeds, will the angles at which you can foil be too fat for it to be optimal to foil?

I find that for medium weight people, 8 knots windspeed over the water measured from an anemometer on the stationary chaseboat is the end of marginal conditions. At 8 and above, you'll expect to be flying consistently and at all points of sail. Upwind, downwind, reaching. The angles don't appear to become more obtuse with less wind. No matter what the breeze is, you're tacking though about 100 or 110 (some people call this 50 or 55 degrees to the wind. They mean the same thing). There are some intermediate windspeeds you can get in a pinching groove on the foils, but pointing is far more a slow boat's game. For a comparison, these are around the same tacking angles you see in moth racing.

It's possible that at some point on the course one might want to pinch like crazy and, in the event that they can maintail foil assisted planing towards their target, might still make acceptable VMG. But I doubt it holds a candle to foiling. Additionally a similar scenario may exist when there's an uncrowded DDW course to mark as you get in close and enter the chaos. However, in my experience the limits to soaking it nearly dead downwind on foils are barely there and evaporate with skill. You can shed speed and maintain flight going virtually dead down wind for quite a distance.

Regarding your last question, it's probable that in truly marginal breeze it's too risky to bother trying to fly on the beats and best to not get seduced. So just go for the mark. Meanwhile on the downwinds, heating it up may pay off that extra bit more consistently in bursts of flight to be worth the effort. With the rig as powered up as possible, that's definitely a likelihood. I expect the killer strategy in these sorts of conditions is to port tack the fleet on a hot airborne reach, foot if you have to to stay airborne, pray to god you nail the tack, round the windward mark keep foiling all the way downwind, repeat.

 

These are merely some of my thoughts on this stuff based on my experience with the UFO. If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats. 

DRC



#654 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 15 February 2017 - 08:17 PM

 

 

If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats. 

 

sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...

 

it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.

 

that sounds pretty good to me!



#655 Dex Sawash

Dex Sawash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 826 posts
  • Location:NC USA
  • Interests:stuff

Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:00 PM

Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

DRC

Will one of these fit?

a3896c140348abaec57a603654852beb.jpg

#656 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 15 February 2017 - 11:34 PM

Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

Me. Also I just realized you can store a beer can in the fillet-bulb at the bottom of the sail. Decent redundancy strategy in the event of a drifter.

DRC
Will one of these fit?

a3896c140348abaec57a603654852beb.jpg
Wrong diameter, but you're supposed to duct-tape those to your hands anyway.

DRC

#657 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,307 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:47 PM

Dave are you in FL or going to FL?



#658 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,194 posts

Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:17 PM

 

 

 

If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats. 

 

sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...

 

it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.

 

that sounds pretty good to me!

 

 

 

also - i think maybe i was imagining that  more boats have already been built than actually have been

 

i was thinking that some racing - if only informal - might have already occurred

 

but i guess that's wrong...



#659 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 16 February 2017 - 07:51 PM

 

 
 If it ever becomes necessary to learn everything there is to know about what race tactics will pertain best to a new boat before introducing it to the marketplace, nobody will ever invest in developing new boats. 

 
sure - i was just asking for your best guess based on what you know now...
 
it sounds like for windspeeds above 8kts, W/L racing will mostly be foiling for someone with experience in the boat.
 
that sounds pretty good to me!
 
 
 
also - i think maybe i was imagining that  more boats have already been built than actually have been
 
i was thinking that some racing - if only informal - might have already occurred
 
but i guess that's wrong...

Not far off, actually. In the pre-production phase we made a total of six UFOs and UFO type boats. We just never course-raced them. All the effort has gone and is going towards getting production boats built in a proper process. This actually answers Clean's question too. Will be bolting down south when there are a couple final spec boats to showcase.

DRC

#660 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 17 February 2017 - 01:31 PM

Anyone given any thought towards trying to hold a worlds somewhere this fall? Florida?

#661 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,307 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 17 February 2017 - 05:02 PM

Can't hold a Worlds until you are an ISAF International Class unless you want to raise the ire of World Sailing and their threats of banning people who compete in an unsanctioned (by WS/ISAF) world championship.  

 

I hope DC is far too busy with production to be fucking around with that paperwork just yet...



#662 bill4

bill4

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 422 posts
  • Location:Western Canada
  • Interests:Sailing, golf, hockey, dark rum

Posted 17 February 2017 - 07:48 PM

I think an Intergalactic Championship would be more appropriate anyway.



#663 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 18 February 2017 - 01:05 PM

Sailing nonsense blah. Blah. Let me rephrase. Anyone given any thoughts to a get to get her race and have fun event?

Florida this fall?

#664 not growing up

not growing up

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 336 posts

Posted 18 February 2017 - 01:26 PM

Dave, How 'bout a detailed video showing complete assembly of the UFO from the box it comes in to the water? Plenty of detail on all the parts and how they work / go together. Good for folks to preview what they would get. The whole enchilada! 



#665 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,017 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 18 February 2017 - 02:18 PM

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

 

I'll PM when my boat arrives and you can rip it up. New Haven Area



#666 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,017 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 18 February 2017 - 02:19 PM

Is anyone else in the area thinking of doing the long distance dinghy race?

 

Yes, and fully support HPDO. Maybe we can convince Cedar Point to let us in the one design regatta?



#667 Bill's Sock Puppet

Bill's Sock Puppet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 883 posts

Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:35 AM

Long Island Sound

 

it would be great if the boat could travel to a few clubs on the sound for demo's

 

If possible, I'd like to demo my boat to the juniors in JSALIS - Area A ( if I get it in time. )  otherwise count me in for HPDO



#668 kindofblue

kindofblue

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Pismo Beach CA
  • Interests:sailing, biking, swimming, hiking

Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:39 AM

Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.



#669 Bill E Goat

Bill E Goat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,849 posts
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 25 February 2017 - 06:37 AM

Can't hold a Worlds until you are an ISAF International Class unless you want to raise the ire of World Sailing and their threats of banning people who compete in an unsanctioned (by WS/ISAF) world championship.  

 

I hope DC is far too busy with production to be fucking around with that paperwork just yet...

 

All you have to do is call it the Intergalatics, they have no Jurisdiction over the universe



#670 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:21 PM

Pretty much my exact feelings. Definitely will be weird to be on a tiny boat but I'm looking for something easy and don't want to drop a huge amount on a foiler when I'm not sure I'm up to the task, we don't get to sail a whole lot, etc. starting here and we can get a bigger cat if this works.

We aren't in CA but if you can make it to Texas you're welcome to sail ours when we get it. Hopefully may time frame.

#671 kindofblue

kindofblue

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Pismo Beach CA
  • Interests:sailing, biking, swimming, hiking

Posted 25 February 2017 - 03:29 PM

Pretty much my exact feelings. Definitely will be weird to be on a tiny boat but I'm looking for something easy and don't want to drop a huge amount on a foiler when I'm not sure I'm up to the task, we don't get to sail a whole lot, etc. starting here and we can get a bigger cat if this works.

We aren't in CA but if you can make it to Texas you're welcome to sail ours when we get it. Hopefully may time frame.

Hi Claire,

Thanks for the reply and kind offer. I'll keep that in mind if my travels take me near Waco.



#672 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 25 February 2017 - 04:35 PM

Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them,  though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

DRC



#673 True North

True North

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 90 posts
  • Location:Dallas, Texas
  • Interests:(Hopeful) Baylor Football

Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:23 PM

Claire, you're up to the task!  I know it! 

 

You have also provided a 50% increase in reasons to go to Waco -- sailing your UFO adds to watching a BU football game and hoping one can catch a glimpse of those home improvement TV people.  I am certain the Waco Chamber of Commerce will be contacting you shortly for an award!

 

Blue, if you're out Texas way, we will have boats in Dallas, San Antonio, and Waco, all owned by people who have drunk the Kool Aid and want to have a blast foiling with others.  Before I get in trouble, not San Antonio actually, but Canyon Lake.  Don't want Charlie mad at me!



#674 TalonF4U

TalonF4U

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 660 posts
  • Location:Virginia Beach

Posted 26 February 2017 - 01:52 AM

Dave, 

 

Accept this advice: Go to Pismo Beach to demo a UFO. Justify it however you want. 

 

That part of Cali is a hidden gem. It's got all the best parts of Cali, with minimal amounts of the worst parts, which would be the huge crowds of people.

 

I will steer you to the wine, though you can hardly go wrong there. 

 

Schmitt's out



#675 kindofblue

kindofblue

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Pismo Beach CA
  • Interests:sailing, biking, swimming, hiking

Posted 26 February 2017 - 04:45 PM

Dave, 

 

Accept this advice: Go to Pismo Beach to demo a UFO. Justify it however you want. 

 

That part of Cali is a hidden gem. It's got all the best parts of Cali, with minimal amounts of the worst parts, which would be the huge crowds of people.

 

I will steer you to the wine, though you can hardly go wrong there. 

 

Schmitt's out

What TalonF4U says is true. To be honest though, Dave wouldn't get the kind of exposure from a marketing standpoint precisely because the population density is low compared to SF, LA, and SD. There's only ~250,000 people in the whole county of San Luis Obispo. Which is one reason we like it here ;-)



#676 kindofblue

kindofblue

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Pismo Beach CA
  • Interests:sailing, biking, swimming, hiking

Posted 26 February 2017 - 04:49 PM

 

Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them,  though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

DRC

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks, that's great news. What's the ETA for delivery? Do you happen to know if the LA and SD folks are on this thread? Or how I might be able to get in touch with them?



#677 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 27 February 2017 - 02:48 PM

Hi Dave,

Thank you for keeping us involved the production updates. The ufo aluminum strut looks very massive (speak heavy) when compared to the Waszp vertical foil. I understand that it needs to be slightly longer as it starts above the water level resulting in a longer lever. Also, the Ufo should be generating more side force due to higher stability when in displacement mode. Yet it looks like a 1/2" wall thickness all around. Needless to say that you would get more struts per ton when you reduce the wall thickness. Well, at least the strut won't break when you hit a floating container should you want to participate in the next vendee globe. B)

Are the front strut and the rudder strut the same profile? Have you considered Waszp-like extruded aluminum for the horizontal foils?

If you need to run some finite elements analysis on a part like the strut, please contact me. I will be glad to help.

Cheers, Tom.

Attached File  Ufo_strut.png   66.14KB   14 downloads vs foil_vert.png



#678 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:16 PM

Hi Dave,

Thank you for keeping us involved the production updates. The ufo aluminum strut looks very massive (speak heavy) when compared to the Waszp vertical foil. I understand that it needs to be slightly longer as it starts above the water level resulting in a longer lever. Also, the Ufo should be generating more side force due to higher stability when in displacement mode. Yet it looks like a 1/2" wall thickness all around. Needless to say that you would get more struts per ton when you reduce the wall thickness. Well, at least the strut won't break when you hit a floating container should you want to participate in the next vendee globe. B)

Are the front strut and the rudder strut the same profile? Have you considered Waszp-like extruded aluminum for the horizontal foils?

If you need to run some finite elements analysis on a part like the strut, please contact me. I will be glad to help.

Cheers, Tom.

attachicon.gifUfo_strut.png vs foil_vert.png

I'm glad you asked. We're quite proud of how our foil package works out. What you're seeing is a two part optical illusion. Both on scale and lighting. The waszp uses the same extrusion for both the mainfoil and the rudder. Both have a modestly high cord but around the same thickness as the UFO mainfoil. In comparison though, the UFO mainfoil strut has a significantly smaller cord length (the hulls generate sideforce until you're taking off, so the loading is smaller than one might think).  The low cord of the mainfoil is part of balancing the boat with the foil just forward of the mast. The rudder is far higher cord but thanks to the increased thickness of its section actually ends up with only one shear web and far lighter walls. Vs. the mainfoil it is actually lighter by the foot. Glare from the sun in the photo also helps that illusion out further. It's more like a 3/16ths wall in real life. This is all part of one of the key differances between the UFO and Waszp. The UFO is essentially a tandem wing configuration whereas the waszp is an inverse-loaded canard. We are a far more rudder-loaded boat. 

We considered aluminum lifting foils and even tried some, but the design compromises required to go to straight extrusions and the limitations it imposes caused us to reject the concept. As it is we get to have proper tapers in our foils and even get beneficial twist in the mainfoil flap. They're also about 1.5kg lighter per foil than their composite cousins. It was a win-win. The rationale for aluminum struts was a lot simpler. 1. Rectangular planforms have a lot less downside when you've got a big old endplate on the bottom that serves its own useful purpose. 2. Aluminum comes out of the die cheap, strong and with exactly the same properties every single time. 3. The carbon ones kept breaking.

Regarding questions from other readers:

TalonF4U: Roger that.

Kindofblue: Mid summer is likely. You'd be coming in behind a big pile of people.

Now I need to get back to the war

DRC



#679 charliepmayer

charliepmayer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 190 posts

Posted 27 February 2017 - 09:43 PM

Thank you Dave!



#680 kindofblue

kindofblue

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Pismo Beach CA
  • Interests:sailing, biking, swimming, hiking

Posted 05 March 2017 - 09:06 PM

 

 

Hi all,

I've just read through this entire thread, which took quite a while over several sessions. The UFO checks all the right boxes for me as I got my start sailing in '83 on a Hobie 16 and never could get used to going slow in a displacement boat. Aside from Hobie 16s and 18s we've had an F-24 trimaran and an F-31 trimaran.

 

We went to the AC Cup in SF and were truly amazed at the power and speed of those boats. We'd been to an AC 45 world series event in San Diego the previous fall and the boat speeds in 10-15kts were just amazing. I'd looked carefully at a foiling cat at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall but the price tag and its complexity made me pause. Then I read the article in Sailing World a couple days ago. Wow.

 

I've not dingy sailed though so before I put in an order I'd really like to get out on the water on one to see how I like it. We're in Pismo Beach CA on the central coast just outside of San Luis Obispo, half way between LA and SF. If anyone out here is getting one I'd love the chance to check it out.

We have boats ordered to LA, SF and SD. The heavy hitter of the group is San Diego so far, but suffice to say there are boats within a drive from Pismo Beach. It's definitely always good to demo sail things before you order them,  though if you started out sailing Hobie 16s I'm pretty sure you'll feel at home. There's a certain amount of nuance to tacking that Hobie people get the hang of really quickly. The boat has some spiritual kinship with the Hobie 14 and Alcort catfish, at least when it's floating.

DRC

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks, that's great news. What's the ETA for delivery? Do you happen to know if the LA and SD folks are on this thread? Or how I might be able to get in touch with them?

 

Hi all,

If you're in California and have a UFO on order, would you please PM me? I'd really like to see one (and would love to test sail one) before I put down a deposit for a UFO. Thanks.



#681 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:52 PM

It's warm in Texas. I'm so ready for my boat. 


Sorry. Our boat. The husband also get's half. Maybe. 



#682 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 07 March 2017 - 08:41 AM

I just got my 5mm wetsuit delivered last week. No more ice on the lake. I am so ready for my boat, too. I want to stop pushing water and start flying.



#683 EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 494 posts
  • Interests:Myth busting.
    Bordeaux.
    Block Island Race Week

Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:56 PM

It's warm in Texas. I'm so ready for my boat. 


Sorry. Our boat. The husband also get's half. Maybe. 

 

I am always happy to acknowledge that my husband owns half the boat.

He sometimes gets a little peeved when I explain which half is his.

 

Needless to say I own the back half of our boat. :wub:



#684 KenKaniff

KenKaniff

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Location:Stamford, CT
  • Interests:Opti-Laser-5o5-18s-Moth-J109-X40-J70-M32-GC32

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:22 PM

 

I'm glad you asked. We're quite proud of how our foil package works out. What you're seeing is a two part optical illusion. Both on scale and lighting. The waszp uses the same extrusion for both the mainfoil and the rudder. Both have a modestly high cord but around the same thickness as the UFO mainfoil. In comparison though, the UFO mainfoil strut has a significantly smaller cord length (the hulls generate sideforce until you're taking off, so the loading is smaller than one might think).  The low cord of the mainfoil is part of balancing the boat with the foil just forward of the mast. The rudder is far higher cord but thanks to the increased thickness of its section actually ends up with only one shear web and far lighter walls. Vs. the mainfoil it is actually lighter by the foot. Glare from the sun in the photo also helps that illusion out further. It's more like a 3/16ths wall in real life. This is all part of one of the key differances between the UFO and Waszp. The UFO is essentially a tandem wing configuration whereas the waszp is an inverse-loaded canard. We are a far more rudder-loaded boat. 

We considered aluminum lifting foils and even tried some, but the design compromises required to go to straight extrusions and the limitations it imposes caused us to reject the concept. As it is we get to have proper tapers in our foils and even get beneficial twist in the mainfoil flap. They're also about 1.5kg lighter per foil than their composite cousins. It was a win-win. The rationale for aluminum struts was a lot simpler. 1. Rectangular planforms have a lot less downside when you've got a big old endplate on the bottom that serves its own useful purpose. 2. Aluminum comes out of the die cheap, strong and with exactly the same properties every single time. 3. The carbon ones kept breaking.



DRC

 

Dave,

What is the weight of each foil (fully assembled)?
Are the foils buoyant?

 

Thanks - and big fan of the project!

 

Kenny



#685 Bad Andy

Bad Andy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 989 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:28 PM

Anyone buying a boat in the Midwest?  I'll have one in Chicago.



#686 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:33 PM

Dave,

 

 

What is the weight of each foil (fully assembled)?
Are the foils buoyant?

 

Thanks - and big fan of the project!

 

Kenny

 

 

 

Fully buoyant or not, it would make sense to keep the internal volume dry, e.g. by sealing either end or by filling with lightweight construction foam like material. Any gram counts in a 50kg boat.

 

Tom.



#687 rawb

rawb

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 09 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

Anyone buying a boat in the Midwest?  I'll have one in Chicago.

We're in Northern Lower Michigan, Traverse City area, and pretty early in Dave's list.  I've been sailing an old Prindle catamaran around Higgins lake, but there's a lot of shallow water there.  The UFO probably deserves more and deeper waters, so I'll be playing around in Grand Traverse Bay or Little Traverse Bay in Petoskey.

 

Hey, we own a motel up here also.  Come on up and visit! 



#688 Doug Lord

Doug Lord

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,439 posts
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
  • Interests:Foiler design and development,.........sailing fast,
    movable ballast systems and..... justice.

Posted 15 March 2017 - 09:36 PM

Excellent article by Dave Clark on the UFO(in case its not already here)  : http://www.proboat.c...peoples-foiler/



#689 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:01 PM

Great article. Great design. Great excitement to get mine asap.



#690 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:11 PM

Yes!!!!
Intergalactic championship this fall? Florida? Somewhere else??!
Intergalactic championship this fall? Florida? Somewhere else??!

#691 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:55 PM

Any other German fellows pushing the trigger to get an UFO? Else, my chances to qualify as Germany champion before the Intergalactics are pretty decent. 



#692 Claire1000

Claire1000

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 478 posts
  • Location:Waco, TX
  • Interests:Boats

Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:27 PM

Alright, I'm trying to be patient, but any update on production would be awesome. Even if it's taking longer than expected and we're looking fall arrival or something. Anyone got anything? Warm enough to get sailing down here in Texas!



#693 Merde2

Merde2

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 182 posts

Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:20 PM

Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.

Attached File  17390376_1837927383122970_5786183925895549483_o.jpg   89.53KB   27 downloads

 

Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.



#694 Tink

Tink

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 99 posts
  • Location:North East England
  • Interests:Sailing and boat building

Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:54 PM

Alright, I'm trying to be patient, but any update on production would be awesome. Even if it's taking longer than expected and we're looking fall arrival or something. Anyone got anything? Warm enough to get sailing down here in Texas!


Good things come to those who wait. I done a fair few product launches and seen a fair few where products where pushed out the door too soon, it never goes well. I am in no way saying Fulcrum is or would do that but give them time to get it right.

#695 Dave Clark

Dave Clark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 408 posts
  • Location:Rhode Island
  • Interests:International Canoe

Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:41 PM

Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.
17390376_1837927383122970_5786183925895549483_o.jpg
 
Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.

Correct. I oversaw and took part in the construction of hull #1 today (hull ID # U0001). It went pretty darn smoothly, for an instructional run. Things are looking good. I'm not proud of or happy about how much time it's taken to get to where we are. To a certain degree I'm extremely embarrassed since a good deal of how slowly it's gone is entirely my fault, not for want of effort but for want of project management savvy. It turns out I'm not very bright. Nonetheless, the production line is taking shape, the big pieces are finally being built and it's getting more real by the day.

Thank you all for your ongoing belief in UFOs

DRC



#696 Tink

Tink

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 99 posts
  • Location:North East England
  • Interests:Sailing and boat building

Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:00 AM

Looks like it's starting up. This is today from the Fulcrum facebook page.17390376_1837927383122970_5786183925895549483_o.jpg
 
Don't mind waiting a bit, still have sub zero temperatures here.

Correct. I oversaw and took part in the construction of hull #1 today (hull ID # U0001). It went pretty darn smoothly, for an instructional run. Things are looking good. I'm not proud of or happy about how much time it's taken to get to where we are. To a certain degree I'm extremely embarrassed since a good deal of how slowly it's gone is entirely my fault, not for want of effort but for want of project management savvy. It turns out I'm not very bright. Nonetheless, the production line is taking shape, the big pieces are finally being built and it's getting more real by the day.
Thank you all for your ongoing belief in UFOs
DRC
You should not be embarrassed about anything what you any your team have done is nothing short of a miracle. Making one of something is easy. To set up a production line to make multiple identical units is very hard and complex. You should be extremely proud of what yo have, are and will achieve.

#697 Jim Caldwell

Jim Caldwell

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts
  • Location:Clevland, Ohio
  • Interests:Sailing, F/E racing boats.

Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:01 PM

P.E. R. T chart helps Dave to tie all the pieces together.



#698 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 37,307 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:36 PM

new pic on front page now



#699 hobie17li

hobie17li

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts

Posted 22 March 2017 - 06:24 PM

Hi, Dave, looks great. I think I would have a problem on south shore Long Island in bay with eel grass. I wind surf
With a weed fin.any solution to this other than relocate?
Thanks doug

#700 Tom4FunOnly

Tom4FunOnly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Interests:Light, small, fast

Posted 22 March 2017 - 11:57 PM

Dave,
U0001? Do yourself a favor and use a couple more digits. We all hope this will become the laser of a foling era. 9999 units is what people call limited edition these days.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users