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Capsized 57' Catamaran rescued

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#1 Zonker

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 01:33 PM

A 57' catamaran capsized and the crew were rescued on Thursday, more than 400 miles north of the Dominican Republic. It's called "Leopard" and judging by the mini-keel/daggerboard combination it might be  Chris White cat (an Atlantic 57 called "Leopard" was launched 2008). His designs are some of the only boats that use that configuration. She is floating quite high in the capsized photo, suggesting a light boat.

 

Link to the story.

http://d7.uscgnews.c...c/4007/2901442/

 

"The three mariners departed Chesapeake, Va., Saturday to transport the Leopard to Saint Martin."



#2 Wess

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 01:58 PM

Yes, this appears to be Leopard, a Chris White Atlantic 57 built by Aquidneck Custom Inc and launched in 2008.

 

Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.

 

What's up with that?



#3 DDW

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 04:43 PM

 

Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.

 

What's up with that?

 

 

No lead keel?



#4 scaredsheep

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 07:20 PM

https://www.chriswhi...capsize-of-anna

On July 31, 2010, Atlantic 57 'Anna' capsized in a violent 60+ knot squall. Thankfully, the skipper and crew were soon picked up by a passing freighter and suffered only minor cuts and bruises. The links below contain a summary of the weather at the time of the capsize, several 'squall stories' from the skippers of other catamarans, and Chris' suggestions for a protocol to follow in squalls and very gusty conditions.

What we can learn from Anna's capsize, by Chris White

Inhabiting an overturned boat, by Chris White

Weather Conditions for Anna, by Jennifer Francis, PhD Atmospheric Sciences (PDF)

Squall Stories - Comments from some experienced Atlantic Cat sailors

How much wind was needed to capsize Anna?, by Chris White



#5 ozmultis

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 12:45 AM

 

 

Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.

 

What's up with that?

 

 

No lead keel?

 

 

Fuckwit



#6 Autonomous

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 05:26 AM



 
Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.
 
What's up with that?

 
 
No lead keel?

LOL

#7 The Big D

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 01:51 PM

After a conversation with the crew of Leopard I am convinced the inversion was caused by a microburst or extreme squall. There was no acceleration just before the boat flipped and it inverted almost instantly. They had eased the sails and decided to forego a sail increase until after dinner. The crew described a "roar" and we're immediately inverted. If it can happen to these guys, it can happen to anyone. They don't get more experienced or cautious than this crew.

#8 jdazey

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 07:31 PM

After a conversation with the crew of Leopard I am convinced the inversion was caused by a microburst or extreme squall. There was no acceleration just before the boat flipped and it inverted almost instantly. They had eased the sails and decided to forego a sail increase until after dinner. The crew described a "roar" and we're immediately inverted. If it can happen to these guys, it can happen to anyone. They don't get more experienced or cautious than this crew.

 

And there you go. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Bad things can and do happen to even the best of us.



#9 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 08:04 PM

Many experienced sailors recommend having a hand on the sheet at all times.  Seems like that might not have been the case here?



#10 The Big D

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:44 PM

Experienced sailors would not expect that on anything other than a fully crewed race boat in best speed mode.

#11 Rasputin22

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:06 PM

It sounds like easing sheets and all hands go inside for a meal. At least one crew should get a plate and go eat within a few feet of the sheet releases. If they were going to increase sail after dinner and eased sheets while eating, it sounds like the boat wasn't anywhere being near being pressed hard. Squalls and 'microbursts' don't just pounce on unsuspecting vessels during dinner, watchkeeping sounds pretty lax. 



#12 soma

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:10 PM

One thing I'll say, "modern" radars are horrible at seeing squalls. I know the B&G in particular essentially can't see a squall. The older analog ones are much better.

 

That's not to say that that was a contributing factor, I don't know the particulars, but i can see how you could get caught with your pants down.

 

Fingers crossed for a safe recovery of the vessel and that everyone is ok.



#13 Joli

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:36 PM

It sounds like easing sheets and all hands go inside for a meal. At least one crew should get a plate and go eat within a few feet of the sheet releases. If they were going to increase sail after dinner and eased sheets while eating, it sounds like the boat wasn't anywhere being near being pressed hard. Squalls and 'microbursts' don't just pounce on unsuspecting vessels during dinner, watchkeeping sounds pretty lax. 

 

Come on Rasp, you really expect people to sit in the forward cockpit while cruising these things?



#14 weinie

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:38 PM

 

 

Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.

 

What's up with that?

 

 

No lead keel?

 

troof



#15 Rasputin22

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 10:59 PM

 

It sounds like easing sheets and all hands go inside for a meal. At least one crew should get a plate and go eat within a few feet of the sheet releases. If they were going to increase sail after dinner and eased sheets while eating, it sounds like the boat wasn't anywhere being near being pressed hard. Squalls and 'microbursts' don't just pounce on unsuspecting vessels during dinner, watchkeeping sounds pretty lax. 

 

Come on Rasp, you really expect people to sit in the forward cockpit while cruising these things?

 

 

That's what you sign up for when you buy or sign on to sail on one of these...  

 

    At least you can see and hear a willywaw coming from up there. Wait? Unless it sneaks up behind you! 

 

    Soma, that is not good to hear your comment about the newer radars not seeing squalls and thunderstorms. I did a delivery on a big GIvens 57 cat named OCCAMS RAZOR and we picked our way through some really nasty weather coming into Bermuda from the VI. That was the night that the crew got swept overboard off of the VOR boat heading to Newport. The good old analog radar showed where the gaps were in the squall lines and we kept pretty good speed up to do some open field running. Luffing up in the 50 kt gusts felt like the rig was going to shake out of the boat, but it was probably better than plodding along and getting caught with inadequate way on and not being able to accelerate. I sure wished there were some way to run the sheet releases inside the deckhouse that night! 

 

124-Occam_1.jpg?itok=5zMq_PlC

 

Plenty of rig on that beast to get you into trouble!

 

021416_0003.jpg



#16 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:13 AM

So if you were there this would not have happened? Fuck off..you're tiresome. Big talk like this is part for these situations. Know it alls are know it alls until they experience one of these things. Then their story changes.
I've weaved my way through many many squall lines with radar. BFD! I've also experienced a near vertical gust approaching 80 knots that started instantly and I survived through pure luck.
Just the attitude with so little info that it would not happen to you tells me you are not nearly as experienced as you let on.
Once again..Fuck off.

#17 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:20 AM

Big D,

 

    Do know you that someone was near the sheets?  I'm not talking big, and I have been in both situations. I had a rig blown out of the boat from a near vertical gust and had I not been at least reaching for the sheet in the split second that it took for the mast to break at the staysail hounds, I would have probably had my head crushed. As it was a concussion was my pure luck for survival. How can you comment on my attitude with the blazing one that you are expressing? Take a nap if you are tired or at least share some facts on the situation if you have them. 

 

Once again. Get a life.



#18 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:01 AM

Hey Small D,

The boat is upside down.  Maybe wouldn't have been if someone was outside on watch eh?



#19 overlay

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:14 AM

Hey Big D, can you tell us at what time you capsized?

 

Was it still daylight?



#20 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:18 AM

When you express an opinion about a situation you were not present for, care must be taken. You have not shown that care. If it was you that survived an extremely unusual event, the "I know better" BS would irritate you too.
These folks were sailing multis around the Pacific in the early 70s. They've seen every possible scenario a thousand times over. They just saw the impossible scenario, the one you don't see coming.
Sail enough miles and you'll be hit by an unusual wave at the same moment you are hit by a terrible gust and a floating container appears in your course.
Experienced sailors don't have an opinion about events they were not directly involved in. They simply learn from the words of the very experienced.
.

#21 Veeger

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:32 AM

I've seen enough squalls and sudden bursts of wind in my career commercially that I know it's simply a matter of luck for most multihulls. There's 'stuff' out at sea that can undo anyone sailing a multihull. When it blows too much, they not only can, it will, go over. A monohullmight simply get knocked down or the sticks blown off her, but short of open hatches, will survive. Same reason I wouldn't dream of taking a multi around Cape Horn, some things just exceed a boats capability. Yes, you can get lucky. Sometimes the luck is just bad.

#22 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 02:18 AM

Hey Small D,
The boat is upside down.  Maybe wouldn't have been if someone was outside on watch eh?

Maybe. Do you have enough experience to know? I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't be asking. Can a flipped penny come up 100 heads straight? The answer is yes. In your limited view of how you would dominate the odds with your seagoing prowess, you would find yourself treading water. Get over yourself hotshot. If you actually ever get out there for half the miles of these sailors, you will grow into an opinion that has enough background to be of some value to other sailors.

#23 Al Paca

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 02:23 AM

Following Anna's (another Atlantic 57) capsize in 2010, this would be the second one to go over.
 
What's up with that?

 
 
No lead keel?
 
Fuckwit

Don't all catamarans capsize at some point? Or is it just the disruptive weather that causes it ?

#24 Keith

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 03:00 AM

I'm always very surprised when I hear stories of large cruising cats getting blown over, unless of course, their racing or being pushed very hard.



#25 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:11 AM

Big D,

 

     You come here and purport to have spoken directly with the crew of the Leopard and give vague details about the conditions and sail trim and even hint that with sails eased the crew was more involved with dinner than sailing the boat. You said that not I but then jump down my throat and accuse me of making unfounded remarks along with a nasty an attitude that is excessive even here. A couple others asked you for more info and you weren't any further forthcoming. 

 

    You are in no position to be questioning anyone here's experience and your rabid defense of your friends on the LEOPARD helps no one. If you have any further facts then please share in order to add to our collective experience in such situations. I get the impression that this was an experienced delivery crew and that the owners were not onboard, yes? Not that it matters but I am relieved that the souls on board were rescued in such short order with no more than getting a bit roughed up. I do care and don't see how you can proclaim that I don't. 

 

    After reading Chris White's account of the incident it does seem that no one was on deck and all three crew were in the final prep for dinner after dark. With a cold front approaching and true winds of 23-28 knots and no one on deck or the cockpit (according to Chris) it is very likely that a waterspout could capsize the boat despite the second reef in the main and a partially furled small self tacking jib. 

 

    Here is the rest of Chris' account.

 

https://www.chriswhi...leopard-capsize

 

Just a guess as to position but pretty much in keeping with conditions described by Chris at the time;

 

CUDSbgB.png



#26 rog2

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:12 AM

Having self tailing sheet winches is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

 

 

anna_chriswhite.gif



#27 r.finn

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 10:55 AM

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.



#28 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 12:46 PM

Once again Rasputin, your implication that, had you been there it would not have happened, is tiresome and irritating. This is certainly a tragedy to learn from but it sounds as if you already know all that you need to know.
And, yes it actually is possible and did occur that a powerful anomalous gust hit them so violently that an effective response was not possible. The sails and trim were conservative for the conditions and watch keeping on a boat that was designed to keep the crew mostly indoors was kept by a very cautious and experienced crew.
Had you been there Rasp and had you had the sheet in your hand (being the hero you are) you would have eased it to no avail and most likely found yourself in the water under the boat in a tangle of lines.
The point here is that there are events at sea that will undo the most experienced and cautious sailor. All of us run the risk of stepping onto the wrong airliner or being in the exact wrong place on the ocean.
Are there things we can do to reduce these events from getting the better of us? Probably. More crew, lower rigs, automatic quick releases?? I don't know the answer. But I am smart enough to know that if these guys can get caught out, anybody can.

#29 Joli

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 01:54 PM

D, you seem to be reading more into what Rasp said then what was said. Rasp said he "sails at the sheet" in unsettled weather.  Not sure what your problem is with Rasp but you're coming off as an ass.  



#30 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 03:15 PM

"Squalls and 'microbursts' don't just pounce on unsuspecting vessels during dinner, watchkeeping sounds pretty lax. "

Apparently he has an opinion about how the boat was being sailed. I don't have a problem with Rasp, I have a problem with anyone that is willing to, without evidence, immediately start in with the fault finding and "wouldn't have happened to me" BS. Maybe it is a defence mechanism we all use to make ourselves feel better. Maybe I was too quick to come at Rasp. But don't pretend like this is not an annoyance that is common on this site. Armchair evaluation by even experienced sailors needs to show a little care in saying anything that sounds like an accusation of neglegence until more evidence is available.

#31 Wess

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 03:19 PM

Too much anger guys...

 

Big D - If its your boat, I am sorry about the loss.  I know the captain by reputation as being quite experienced.  I have sailed a few Chris's Atlantic designs.  They are nice boats.

 

For the rest - Good grief, get real.  Really surprised by R.Finn and Rasp.  Come on, self tailing winches are a fact of life on boats (even the F4 for gosh sake) as are auto pilots which are used likely 90% of the time on passage.  I am surprised that such a significant % of the A57 fleet have gone over but they are not exactly extreme.  Outremers, Gunboats, and even Catanas and others are similar.  Reports are they had a double reefed main and a reefed jib sailing in 20-30... it would take about 70 knots of breeze to put the boat over in that configuration.  I think its a bit unfair to describe the watch keeping as "lax."  Reports indicate the Captain was standing at the helm to but there was no build up - just a roar, wall of wind and the boat was over in a heartbeat. 

 

There are rare events that will sink a monohull (hit the semi-submerged container, or have the keel attachment engineering fail) just as there are rare events that will flip a multi no matter how good you are.

 

I didn't encounter my rare event in decades of cruising offshore in some very nice boats we owned including multis, or even near shore in a less nice multi we owned for a decade.  My rare event happened at about 9:30 PM just off Annapolis, nearing the conclusion of an overnight race in our Corsair F27 and within 20nm miles of home.  The forecasted 10-15 knots of breeze was blowing 10 when it jumped to 60 in the time it takes to snap your finger.  Fortunately we had some clue it might happen and had prepared (for maybe seeing a sudden shift and increase to 20-30 knots) - we had not prepared well enough in retrospect given we got 60 - and had a really good crew.  That we stayed upright and everyone came out of it OK was down in large part to luck.  Don't get me wrong... I think the skill of the team played a big part and a lesser skilled group would have been swimming but I also know events can overtake most any skill or preparation and then its down to luck and wrong place / wrong time. 



#32 Speng

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 04:20 PM

When a cat goes over everybody hears about it. When a mono sinks or whatever it's not so big news.



#33 r.finn

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 04:52 PM

Wess, I said I like self tailing winches.  A lot.  But there should be a cam cleat near the winch to cleat off to after using the self tailer.  All big racing multies do that for a reason.  A cam cleat is also the basis of the self releasing sheet some of these boats use for solo ocean racing.  On the proa Jzerro, I have the mainsheet lead below for easy release when the ama starts coming way out of the water, and I've used it.  There is no scenario I would recommend leaving a sheet in the self tailer on a performance multihull or during heavy weather.



#34 The Big D

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 04:55 PM

When a cat goes over everybody hears about it. When a mono sinks or whatever it's not so big news.


You got that right. Many are anxious to point out the faults of multis, and not for the sake of promoting advancements. Go figure?

#35 Wess

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 05:26 PM

Wess, I said I like self tailing winches.  A lot.  But there should be a cam cleat near the winch to cleat off to after using the self tailer.  All big racing multies do that for a reason.  A cam cleat is also the basis of the self releasing sheet some of these boats use for solo ocean racing.  On the proa Jzerro, I have the mainsheet lead below for easy release when the ama starts coming way out of the water, and I've used it.  There is no scenario I would recommend leaving a sheet in the self tailer on a performance multihull or during heavy weather.

Sorry, I didn't read your comment correctly.  Saw Rog2's and the pic (which shows the cleats) and thought you were joining him in throwing shade at how the the boat was designed/fitted out.  My bad.

 

Wonder how long till somebody designs/builds a foolproof fuse for the mainsheet attachment for multis.  Sure seems there would be a market.



#36 olsurfer

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:02 PM

just thinking out loud, what about using a small load cell on the mainsheet block connected to a piston pressure switch on the cam cleat to release it? Don't know if it could act fast enough though.



#37 Paradigm

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:31 PM

One thing that I notice about the two A57 that have gone over is they both had mini keels. I am wondering if there is two much rig for having keels and the boat can't slip. The Catana, Outremer, Gunboat  cats don't have the same percentage of boats flip, but all have boards. Thoughts?



#38 Wess

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:35 PM

I have no idea if its even possible, or if the engineering and/or technology/solutions exist, but I am guessing that cats this size have about 200-400K ft/lbs of righting moment.  Can a load cell in the shroud detect events of say 66% of that load, continuous for a period of more than 2 seconds and send a signal to a release of the mainsheet attachment point? 

 

Or can that righting moment measured at the shroud be translated into some related and known value at the mainsheet and even something as simple as sacrificial line used as a "fuse" for the attachment of the mainsheet?

 

If I am sailing around in the Chesapeake and racing, I want to access the full capability of the boat and there is always someone hand tending sheets and driving.  But is just not the case for Mom and Pop out long distance cruising or even for a delivery crew on a passage. Then I would ideally want some sort of fuse that lets go at 66% or so of the capacity. 

 

No clue if this is doable or economically feasible.  It may well be unrealistic if the real world is such that there are frequently momentary loads that exceed the righting moment so that a fuse concept built around that is a non-starter.

 

Sure would love to see somebody try and succeed to build and market such a thing. 



#39 Paradigm

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:48 PM

What about a loop of rope that is not strong enough to take the full main sheet load that would cause a capsize, but then you have an uncontrolled boom swinging around in a lot of wind.

I have no idea if its even possible, or if the engineering and/or technology/solutions exist, but I am guessing that cats this size have about 200-400K ft/lbs of righting moment.  Can a load cell in the shroud detect events of say 66% of that load, continuous for a period of more than 2 seconds and send a signal to a release of the mainsheet attachment point? 

 

Or can that righting moment measured at the shroud be translated into some related and known value at the mainsheet and even something as simple as sacrificial line used as a "fuse" for the attachment of the mainsheet?

 

If I am sailing around in the Chesapeake and racing, I want to access the full capability of the boat and there is always someone hand tending sheets and driving.  But is just not the case for Mom and Pop out long distance cruising or even for a delivery crew on a passage. Then I would ideally want some sort of fuse that lets go at 66% or so of the capacity. 

 

No clue if this is doable or economically feasible.  It may well be unrealistic if the real world is such that there are frequently momentary loads that exceed the righting moment so that a fuse concept built around that is a non-starter.

 

Sure would love to see somebody try and succeed to build and market such a thing. 



#40 soma

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 06:51 PM

I have no idea if its even possible, or if the engineering and/or technology/solutions exist, but I am guessing that cats this size have about 200-400K ft/lbs of righting moment.  Can a load cell in the shroud detect events of say 66% of that load, continuous for a period of more than 2 seconds and send a signal to a release of the mainsheet attachment point? 

 

Or can that righting moment measured at the shroud be translated into some related and known value at the mainsheet and even something as simple as sacrificial line used as a "fuse" for the attachment of the mainsheet?

 

If I am sailing around in the Chesapeake and racing, I want to access the full capability of the boat and there is always someone hand tending sheets and driving.  But is just not the case for Mom and Pop out long distance cruising or even for a delivery crew on a passage. Then I would ideally want some sort of fuse that lets go at 66% or so of the capacity. 

 

No clue if this is doable or economically feasible.  It may well be unrealistic if the real world is such that there are frequently momentary loads that exceed the righting moment so that a fuse concept built around that is a non-starter.

 

Sure would love to see somebody try and succeed to build and market such a thing. 

That technology is fully available now. Personally, I don't like it. I think it creates a false sense of safety that would encourage laziness, but for singlehanded guys it's indispensable.



#41 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:10 PM

Soma,

 

     Do you remember 'back in the day' there was a large ClamCleat that had a nice SS base that was much like a mousetrap that would let it hinge 180 deg about the 'bitter end'. They were great for the tail end of a sheet and even had a lanyard with a plastic ball that you could grab for a quick release in a panic. There was a spring mechanism that had some degree of adjustment for the 'trip point' but it was pretty crude to totally entrust to keeping a multi upright. I was looking for them recently to use on a rudder kick up system for a big cat but they apparently no longer make or sell them, only a tiny version for dinghy rudders. I figured that the manufacturers no longer can afford the liability for the big one if used for sheets.

 

Here is the small one 

 

ClamcleatConDesbloqueoAutomatico_26275.J

 

 

They used to make the quick release for this big monster but apparently no longer. Probably just as well for the reasons Soma mentions.

 

  •  
  •  
  •  
 
 
10.jpg
CL205 Major


#42 Wess

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:25 PM

 

I have no idea if its even possible, or if the engineering and/or technology/solutions exist, but I am guessing that cats this size have about 200-400K ft/lbs of righting moment.  Can a load cell in the shroud detect events of say 66% of that load, continuous for a period of more than 2 seconds and send a signal to a release of the mainsheet attachment point? 

 

Or can that righting moment measured at the shroud be translated into some related and known value at the mainsheet and even something as simple as sacrificial line used as a "fuse" for the attachment of the mainsheet?

 

If I am sailing around in the Chesapeake and racing, I want to access the full capability of the boat and there is always someone hand tending sheets and driving.  But is just not the case for Mom and Pop out long distance cruising or even for a delivery crew on a passage. Then I would ideally want some sort of fuse that lets go at 66% or so of the capacity. 

 

No clue if this is doable or economically feasible.  It may well be unrealistic if the real world is such that there are frequently momentary loads that exceed the righting moment so that a fuse concept built around that is a non-starter.

 

Sure would love to see somebody try and succeed to build and market such a thing. 

That technology is fully available now. Personally, I don't like it. I think it creates a false sense of safety that would encourage laziness, but for singlehanded guys it's indispensable.

 

 

Well don't be shy, LOL...

 

What is it, who makes it, how does it work, and and how much does it cost?!

 

I hear you on the laziness concern but I would view it as redundancy in safety.



#43 soma

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:33 PM

I know it as Upside Up, but it's made by Ocean Data Systems. Once it's dialled in and tested it's great, but most of the boats that I know don't use it.

 

http://www.oceandata...olutions-ods/en



#44 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:34 PM

Come on Wess, Google your friend;

 

http://www.oceandata....com/accueil/en

 

    My client and I had a close look at this system about 6 months ago and while it seems to have great promise, we passed for some of the same reasons that Soma mentioned. In addition, I felt that if the Coast Guard saw this setup on a 49 passenger sailing cat, they would pack their inspection bags and go home!



#45 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:39 PM

I looked a little closer and found that there is a pre-programmed option called the 'Easy System'. They must have seen too many Staples commercials.

 

FN8KNV6FWMO32SK.RECT2100.jpg

 

 

 

Exploring their website further, we find that the system is also available in an “Easy” version with factory set limits that cannot be adjusted. Apparently, the designers work with you to permanently program your desired parameters of heel, dive and load into the brain of the system. Price for the “Easy” system is listed as 1200 Euro and would be cheap insurance if it lived to its promise to prevent capsize.



#46 Rasputin22

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 07:41 PM

That system seems to have kept Sobedo's crackers dry!

 



#47 Wess

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 08:08 PM

I know it as Upside Up, but it's made by Ocean Data Systems. Once it's dialled in and tested it's great, but most of the boats that I know don't use it.

 

http://www.oceandata...olutions-ods/en

Thank you.

 

Interesting stuff.  Did not know this technology existed at an accessible level for private owners.



#48 overlay

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 09:12 PM

Big D,

 

     You come here and purport to have spoken directly with the crew of the Leopard and give vague details about the conditions and sail trim and even hint that with sails eased the crew was more involved with dinner than sailing the boat. You said that not I but then jump down my throat and accuse me of making unfounded remarks along with a nasty an attitude that is excessive even here. A couple others asked you for more info and you weren't any further forthcoming. 

 

    You are in no position to be questioning anyone here's experience and your rabid defense of your friends on the LEOPARD helps no one. If you have any further facts then please share in order to add to our collective experience in such situations. I get the impression that this was an experienced delivery crew and that the owners were not onboard, yes? Not that it matters but I am relieved that the souls on board were rescued in such short order with no more than getting a bit roughed up. I do care and don't see how you can proclaim that I don't. 

 

    After reading Chris White's account of the incident it does seem that no one was on deck and all three crew were in the final prep for dinner after dark. With a cold front approaching and true winds of 23-28 knots and no one on deck or the cockpit (according to Chris) it is very likely that a waterspout could capsize the boat despite the second reef in the main and a partially furled small self tacking jib. 

 

    Here is the rest of Chris' account.

 

https://www.chriswhi...leopard-capsize

 

Just a guess as to position but pretty much in keeping with conditions described by Chris at the time;

 

CUDSbgB.png

 

 

Exactly Rasps, well said. FFS they were waiting for a front (and all the potential nasties contained within) and no ones on deck.

 

Poor form. Negligent.

 

From the linky CW says boat jogging along on starboard , course 150, eased off wind and sheets eased. That puts the wind not in the south but closer to SW, hence probably right on the front line. Sheets eased ,sails almost luffing, puts the  Mainsail pretty close

to hard on the leeward shroud.

 

WTF did they think was going to happen in  strong frontal Westerly change with no one on deck.?. Easing the main wasn't going to do much. Putting  a dinner date before boat safety sums the crew care factor  and experience up perfectly. With an approaching front, short handed, reef main early not ease onto shrouds,AND HAVE SOMEONE ON DECK.



#49 overlay

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 09:46 PM

They did get one thing right and that was the sail trim for the new breeze direction :lol:



#50 Keith

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Posted 22 November 2016 - 10:22 PM

One thing that I notice about the two A57 that have gone over is they both had mini keels. I am wondering if there is two much rig for having keels and the boat can't slip. The Catana, Outremer, Gunboat  cats don't have the same percentage of boats flip, but all have boards. Thoughts?

I think boards are most forgiving in tough conditions. I would prefer boards for ocean sailing.



#51 rog2

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 12:36 AM

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.

 

 

The problem with self tailers for sheet winches is that every now and then the sheet gets left in the tailer and then it becomes the norm. No self tailer means always cleating the sheet.

 

You can single hand winch and tail; its not like its a race. 



#52 pyrat

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 01:01 AM

One thing that I notice about the two A57 that have gone over is they both had mini keels. I am wondering if there is two much rig for having keels and the boat can't slip. The Catana, Outremer, Gunboat  cats don't have the same percentage of boats flip, but all have boards. Thoughts?

A +/- 12' deep dagger or centerboard found on a Gunboat would prevent sliding as much as those keels I suppose. Unless you were to ever meet true survival weather (whether sailing & concerned about an ultimate wave hitting beam-on, or lying a hull due to loss of steering or other breakage), at least one board is nearly always down - often both - while sailing offshore. This is especially true in sloppy stuff, as it tends to keep the boat tracking straighter, and imo, having two boards down reduces the forces of a lateral load focused on just one. And on top of that, I don't think the general train of thought is that 'slippage' (ie extreme/instant leeway) is ever going to be enough to prevent a capsize from a wind event - just might be enough to keep you upright if caught in an ultimate wave with plenty of whitewater.



#53 pyrat

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 01:05 AM

 

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.

 

 

The problem with self tailers for sheet winches is that every now and then the sheet gets left in the tailer and then it becomes the norm. No self tailer means always cleating the sheet.

 

You can single hand winch and tail; its not like its a race. 

 

 

I'm confused - is this a suggestion that the line shouldn't be left in the self-tailer at all, but instead secured in only a cam cleat after the winch? Or that it should go through both the self-tailor AND the cam cleat?

 

I Don't see the problem with leaving sheets in a self-tailor personally, and have never heard any arguments against it other than when racing to 100+ % in a 'hands on sheet' situation... Otherwise, in offshore mode like the scenario being discussed, I can't see how releasing the sheet from a self-tailer is that much slower than a cam-cleat... Also can't remember any offshore passage on any boats (including performance multi-hulls) where this was considered taboo practice.

 

Ever had a cam get too loaded up and you couldn't get enough load off of it to get it up and out of the teeth?



#54 pyrat

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 01:11 AM

And to add to the discussion on load-cells and auto-release systems...

 

The new Gunboats have static load-cells in the cap shrouds with a display at the helm that actively reads current loads, plus an active cell in the mainsheet. The mainsheet, however, does not run to a winch - we have a 15' hydraulic ram in the boom with a block on the end of it. One end of the main sheet dead-ends on that block, the other dead-ends onto traveler car. The only way to trim or ease the sheet is with buttons in the cockpit or at the helm which manipulate the ram in/out (also a few emergency release buttons around the boat). A bit scary to get used to for me personally, but there is an adjustable release feature which will blow the ram if the load on the mainsheet exceeds whatever your preset limit is. Never had to use it so can't comment on how effective it is or what the aftermath of smoking the mainsheet on a Gunboat mainsail in heavy air would be like...



#55 Rasputin22

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 02:01 AM

Thanks for the details on the in boom hydraulic system on the Gunboats, I was going to ask Soma about them and their quick dump function. 



#56 rantifarian

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 02:15 AM

One thing that I notice about the two A57 that have gone over is they both had mini keels. I am wondering if there is two much rig for having keels and the boat can't slip. The Catana, Outremer, Gunboat  cats don't have the same percentage of boats flip, but all have boards. Thoughts?

A +/- 12' deep dagger or centerboard found on a Gunboat would prevent sliding as much as those keels I suppose. Unless you were to ever meet true survival weather (whether sailing & concerned about an ultimate wave hitting beam-on, or lying a hull due to loss of steering or other breakage), at least one board is nearly always down - often both - while sailing offshore. This is especially true in sloppy stuff, as it tends to keep the boat tracking straighter, and imo, having two boards down reduces the forces of a lateral load focused on just one. And on top of that, I don't think the general train of thought is that 'slippage' (ie extreme/instant leeway) is ever going to be enough to prevent a capsize from a wind event - just might be enough to keep you upright if caught in an ultimate wave with plenty of whitewater.
I have heard people claim lifting boards up makes multis much safer in big breeze, as they slip sideways rather than loading up. No lifting minikeels, you are max area all the time

#57 huey 2

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 02:31 AM

the upside down system has the sheets load into a flipper

 

prototype_LARGE_t_11_1577.JPG

 

When delivery cats in the early days shorthanded   used the clam cleats like this but had a pull rope system to release  so would attach a long rope to this leading down through cabin like a train emergency brake pull cable  when fine tuned you could cook a meal and if activated the headsail sheet with two or three wraps would run for a bit and slow not getting tangled  .. you could then ease if more was needed   dont know if it would help with a micro downburst     you never relax on a multi do you

 

ClamcleatConDesbloqueoAutomatico_26275.J

 

  had an artificial on once on a monohull   from  the wessex helicopter cargo chopper Jolly Green Frog from the naval airwing at Jarvis Bay  Knocked flat then came up as they moved then got flattened the opposite tack and then all over again but more like a chinese gybe from flat on the water ..it was worse than washing machine down below  and all happened in less than a minute and a half   the owner  who was ex Navy when he heard got the pilot grounded for quite a while  I got smashed by things flying but was in the companionway and sorta didnt lose my feet as they shuffled danced on each side of the cabin   but could see face in the window laughing  so got the last laugh but was still  finding glass shards and shackles years later



#58 Airwick

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 03:02 AM

Don't they have mini-keel and boards, you would have significantly less area if the board was up but maybe still too much for the "keeping only the windward board down" trick to be effective. Although if there was enough wind to capsize the boat with a double reefed, partially eased main, there probably wouldn't have been much that would have helped...

One of the issues with the self releasing systems is that you have to make sure the line will run enough without snagging or tangling for it to be effective. 

The load cell in the shroud coupled with hydraulics would seem like the most reliable. However it depends how fast the ram actually dumps the sheet and if you are sailing with main already eased quite a bit, it won't help as it will just hit the shrouds.

Using a "fuse" that will break before a capsize isn't really practical as it will likely end up breaking during a jibe or while launching off a wave due to shock loading. The strength might be controlled fairly well when it's new but most materials loose strength pretty quickly as they age/are used (especially when subjected to stresses close to their breaking strength).

Not saying it would have solved the problem for sure but someone outside might have heard it coming early enough to react (or not...), waterspouts are pretty loud but it it's approaching from downwind and it's already blowing 30 with rain, you could definitely miss it...

I do find cam cleats are much faster to release than the self tailers. Also you don't have to be right at the winch either, all you have to do is yank on the line from an angle that will pull it out, and if there are several wraps around the winch it should be loaded too much either.  



#59 r.finn

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 04:10 AM

 

 

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.

 

 

The problem with self tailers for sheet winches is that every now and then the sheet gets left in the tailer and then it becomes the norm. No self tailer means always cleating the sheet.

 

You can single hand winch and tail; its not like its a race. 

 

 

I'm confused - is this a suggestion that the line shouldn't be left in the self-tailer at all, but instead secured in only a cam cleat after the winch? Or that it should go through both the self-tailor AND the cam cleat?

 

I Don't see the problem with leaving sheets in a self-tailor personally, and have never heard any arguments against it other than when racing to 100+ % in a 'hands on sheet' situation... Otherwise, in offshore mode like the scenario being discussed, I can't see how releasing the sheet from a self-tailer is that much slower than a cam-cleat... Also can't remember any offshore passage on any boats (including performance multi-hulls) where this was considered taboo practice.

 

Ever had a cam get too loaded up and you couldn't get enough load off of it to get it up and out of the teeth?

 

 

rog2, sure, if the crew are not willing to adopt the minimum level of discipline while sailing offshore.  The captain should make the importance of not being totally lazy about this very simple thing, very clear.  I definitely do this.  On deliveries, there really isn't much going on to justify not doing it.  Very little happens on a daily basis out there.  Why leave anything up for chance?

 

pyrat, in my opinion it's really easy to finish grinding in a sail then transfer it to a cam cleat with fewer wraps on the winch than needed for the grinding part.  That way it's more easily released when a big sheet ease is necessary.  If it's a really big load it may blow up the cam cleat, which I have not experienced personally, but I've definitely seen cracked or massively deformed self tailers due to too few wraps on the winch and left in the self tailer.  That's a lot more expensive to replace than a cam cleat and massively cheaper than a capsize or dismasting, or whatever else is in the fuse line.  That's why I do it.  And no, I've never had a cam cleat bite too hard to release from a winch.  Somebody else care to chime in about this with their experiences for folks?



#60 overlay

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 05:03 AM

MYCQ, The custodians of AOMR rating system in Aus advise cleats to be mounted near all winches.

 

 

14.13. To assist in prevention of capsize:

14.13.1. Quick release cleats that can be released under working load should be used for all sheets. Cam cleats are suitable. Clutches are NOT suitable.

14.13.2. Self-tailing winches should also be provided with adjacent cam cleats or similar equivalent. 

 

http://www.mycq.org....dbook2016v1.pdf

 

I've always found if  nursing the boat through a squall I can sit on the windward side with the headsail sheet tail in hand but still cleated with minimal wraps on winch. The sheet can be released with a flick of the wrist without moving from my perch.

 

Not sure I'd be skilled enough to accomplish that trick if I left the tail in the ST. ;)



#61 Keith

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 05:31 AM

 

 

 

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.

 

 

The problem with self tailers for sheet winches is that every now and then the sheet gets left in the tailer and then it becomes the norm. No self tailer means always cleating the sheet.

 

You can single hand winch and tail; its not like its a race. 

 

 

I'm confused - is this a suggestion that the line shouldn't be left in the self-tailer at all, but instead secured in only a cam cleat after the winch? Or that it should go through both the self-tailor AND the cam cleat?

 

I Don't see the problem with leaving sheets in a self-tailor personally, and have never heard any arguments against it other than when racing to 100+ % in a 'hands on sheet' situation... Otherwise, in offshore mode like the scenario being discussed, I can't see how releasing the sheet from a self-tailer is that much slower than a cam-cleat... Also can't remember any offshore passage on any boats (including performance multi-hulls) where this was considered taboo practice.

 

Ever had a cam get too loaded up and you couldn't get enough load off of it to get it up and out of the teeth?

 

 

rog2, sure, if the crew are not willing to adopt the minimum level of discipline while sailing offshore.  The captain should make the importance of not being totally lazy about this very simple thing, very clear.  I definitely do this.  On deliveries, there really isn't much going on to justify not doing it.  Very little happens on a daily basis out there.  Why leave anything up for chance?

 

pyrat, in my opinion it's really easy to finish grinding in a sail then transfer it to a cam cleat with fewer wraps on the winch than needed for the grinding part.  That way it's more easily released when a big sheet ease is necessary.  If it's a really big load it may blow up the cam cleat, which I have not experienced personally, but I've definitely seen cracked or massively deformed self tailers due to too few wraps on the winch and left in the self tailer.  That's a lot more expensive to replace than a cam cleat and massively cheaper than a capsize or dismasting, or whatever else is in the fuse line.  That's why I do it.  And no, I've never had a cam cleat bite too hard to release from a winch.  Somebody else care to chime in about this with their experiences for folks?

 

 Yes,

 

Self tailing only ever for trimming, once trimmed the line immediately comes out of the self tailor, with only one wrap around the winch (if needed) and into the cam cleat, I've never had a cam cleat jam or blow up, or load up to the point of being unable to release a load very fast. This is offshore cat sailing 101. If you choose to not follow this train of thought then your just asking for trouble. 

 

Dagger boards in very strong weather, the best set up is, leeward board completely up, and windward board down with as little board as necessary, so if you do get a big gust, or large wave, the windward board lifts out of the water and the cat slides away, sideways. This is also offshore cat sailing 101, and why a good dagger board cat is simply safer offshore, if handled properly.

 

Multihulls have to be handled properly to be safe for ocean voyaging, they require a different mind set, and have many good advantages, if managed properly.



#62 SCANAS

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 05:48 AM

Insert pictures of the German home built cat with flat hull bottom here 😎

#63 Catflap

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 12:47 PM

What do the solo round the world pro's do on multihulls as far as tailing and or cleating sheets? I expect they wouldn't be holding the sheets in their hands for any significant time each day, but still pressing hard and would have to be able to get out of trouble quick ?

 

I thought (from some photos of macif) that they run the sheet from the winch (not tailed) to cleat that could be released quickly - or do they rely on a computer brain to keep them safe ?



#64 jdazey

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 01:32 PM

 

pyrat, in my opinion it's really easy to finish grinding in a sail then transfer it to a cam cleat with fewer wraps on the winch than needed for the grinding part.  That way it's more easily released when a big sheet ease is necessary.  If it's a really big load it may blow up the cam cleat, which I have not experienced personally, but I've definitely seen cracked or massively deformed self tailers due to too few wraps on the winch and left in the self tailer.  That's a lot more expensive to replace than a cam cleat and massively cheaper than a capsize or dismasting, or whatever else is in the fuse line.  That's why I do it.  And no, I've never had a cam cleat bite too hard to release from a winch.  Somebody else care to chime in about this with their experiences for folks?

 

 

Minority opinion here. I have had cam cleats bite a line too hard to release without using a winch. That was on a much smaller boat. On our current boat I have clutches for jib sheets, jib cars, reefing lines, and traveler controls. I have an ST for the main, no cleat. It is a lot faster for me to dump the main sheet out of the ST and it would be to grab a winch handle, get it in the winch, and release. And while we try to be alert and attentive, we're not going to constantly have a hand on the main sheet on a multi-day passage. I don't know any cruisers who would.



#65 pyrat

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 02:53 PM

 

 

 

 

Self tailing winches are great.  But I agree, on multihulls especially, they should be accompanied with cam cleats for quick release ability.  It's a shame about this capsize.  You have to assume the more time we spend out there, the more likely it is some unwelcome event will happen, experience notwithstanding.

 

 

The problem with self tailers for sheet winches is that every now and then the sheet gets left in the tailer and then it becomes the norm. No self tailer means always cleating the sheet.

 

You can single hand winch and tail; its not like its a race. 

 

 

I'm confused - is this a suggestion that the line shouldn't be left in the self-tailer at all, but instead secured in only a cam cleat after the winch? Or that it should go through both the self-tailor AND the cam cleat?

 

I Don't see the problem with leaving sheets in a self-tailor personally, and have never heard any arguments against it other than when racing to 100+ % in a 'hands on sheet' situation... Otherwise, in offshore mode like the scenario being discussed, I can't see how releasing the sheet from a self-tailer is that much slower than a cam-cleat... Also can't remember any offshore passage on any boats (including performance multi-hulls) where this was considered taboo practice.

 

Ever had a cam get too loaded up and you couldn't get enough load off of it to get it up and out of the teeth?

 

 

rog2, sure, if the crew are not willing to adopt the minimum level of discipline while sailing offshore.  The captain should make the importance of not being totally lazy about this very simple thing, very clear.  I definitely do this.  On deliveries, there really isn't much going on to justify not doing it.  Very little happens on a daily basis out there.  Why leave anything up for chance?

 

pyrat, in my opinion it's really easy to finish grinding in a sail then transfer it to a cam cleat with fewer wraps on the winch than needed for the grinding part.  That way it's more easily released when a big sheet ease is necessary.  If it's a really big load it may blow up the cam cleat, which I have not experienced personally, but I've definitely seen cracked or massively deformed self tailers due to too few wraps on the winch and left in the self tailer.  That's a lot more expensive to replace than a cam cleat and massively cheaper than a capsize or dismasting, or whatever else is in the fuse line.  That's why I do it.  And no, I've never had a cam cleat bite too hard to release from a winch.  Somebody else care to chime in about this with their experiences for folks?

 

 Yes,

 

Self tailing only ever for trimming, once trimmed the line immediately comes out of the self tailor, with only one wrap around the winch (if needed) and into the cam cleat, I've never had a cam cleat jam or blow up, or load up to the point of being unable to release a load very fast. This is offshore cat sailing 101. If you choose to not follow this train of thought then your just asking for trouble. 

 

Dagger boards in very strong weather, the best set up is, leeward board completely up, and windward board down with as little board as necessary, so if you do get a big gust, or large wave, the windward board lifts out of the water and the cat slides away, sideways. This is also offshore cat sailing 101, and why a good dagger board cat is simply safer offshore, if handled properly.

 

Multihulls have to be handled properly to be safe for ocean voyaging, they require a different mind set, and have many good advantages, if managed properly.

 

 

Keith

 

On self-tailers vs cams:

 

I understand and can see the point of the cam cleats, although I would still argue that 'offshore cat sailing' is a bit broad for that to be considered '101'. I think a more accurate term might be 'offshore multi-hull racing 101'. Certainly on a big powered up racing cat or tri, racing offshore at 100%+, this makes total sense, but I don't see it being practical or neccessary on a cruising catamaran, sailing at 75%-85% on a delivery passage (we always sail conservatively on passage) - EVEN on the higher performance cats like Gunboats, Atlantics, or similar. I'm not experienced enough on multi's yet to consider myself the authority on this, but I've sailed with a few in this forum who are - and I've never seen or heard of a cam cleat setup on any big performance/cruising cats,. Not even on heavily raced Gunboats like Phaedo2, Extreme H20, etc. Nor am I convinced that they would have saved Leopard in this particular incident...

 

On boards & slippage

 

Agree on all points except for the claim that boards up = enough side-slippage to avoid capsize from wind event. There's no way you slide to leeward fast enough to avoid a capsize from a microburst (or similar blast). Remember on GB's and similar cruisers, there is still a significant underwater profile (including 7ft deep rudders!). Perhaps the boat gives to leeward at 1-3 knots maximum, but would not simply slide sideways fast enough to reduce the apparent wind enough to avoid capsize. As soon as the windward hull comes up, you'll have the undercarriage of the bridge-deck exposed which adds to your problems. The boards-up configuration, imo, only helps in breaking white-water situations.



#66 Rasputin22

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 03:49 PM

Cam Cleat

 

114652.jpg easily tripped when cleating tail from winch

 

Clam cleat

 

891542.jpg These can be hard to release without enough wraps on winch before cleating, also know as jam cleats for that reason.

 

Auto Release Clam Cleat

 

mgNZJXu9KFBBpMldgE-meCQ.jpg  Was once available in the big size (9/16 to 5/8" line) and perfect for main and jib sheets but no longer available. Had a lanyard with a ball end for remote tripping. Small one shown here and still in catalog intended for rudder kick up like so

 

402225.jpg



#67 Keith

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 04:36 PM

Pyrat,

 

Well I would suggest that a micro burst is very rare, But extremely dangerous to any boat.

 

Racing fully crewed "racing" mulithulls is a entirely different topic.

 

I'm talking about a cruising catamaran with dagger boards, and not trimarans.

 

Ocean voyaging with family and friends and or crew, is about getting from A to B, in a safe as possible manner, with out damaging, loosing your boat or loosing any lives.

 

You can manage your ocean passage what ever way you choose, I simply choose to be very cautious.  

 

But, the cam cleats and the use of the dagger boards worked very well for me, in extreme conditions, when I had to use them.

 

So do parachute sea anchors and drogues, but that's another topic.



#68 Waynemarlow

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 05:20 PM

Umm not having been on a very large Cat but race smaller beach cats, releasing the main is not always the right thing to do when over powered, it fattens up the top of the sail creating extra drag and power at the top of the mast and just makes things worse, far better to release the traveler, but does this transpose over onto the larger boats ?



#69 pyrat

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 05:42 PM

Umm not having been on a very large Cat but race smaller beach cats, releasing the main is not always the right thing to do when over powered, it fattens up the top of the sail creating extra drag and power at the top of the mast and just makes things worse, far better to release the traveler, but does this transpose over onto the larger boats ?

 

Yes it does to a degree, though I think on most the main will offer a more drastic change in angle of attack due to shorter (relative to a beach cat) traveler track lengths. Dumping the main also spills off the top of the sail, lowering the center of effort of the wind on said sail.



#70 overlay

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Posted 23 November 2016 - 07:10 PM

 

 

 

 

Clam cleat

 

891542.jpg These can be hard to release without enough wraps on winch before cleating, also know as jam cleats for that reason.

 

 

 

 

 

No. I've been using the large PLASTIC Jam cleats on my boat for the last 17 years and a lot of blue water miles without a problem. I have them mounted on the

vertical side of the cockpit combing below the winches. Everyone laughed when I launched the boat and said the cleats would wear very quickly. 17 years later their still going strong and don't slip. There is no way the sheets can jamb or has every jammed ,and required a winch handle to unload before releasing as the cleat will distort. Their simply not designed to handle the loads of which you speak.

 

There is no need to pull the sheet back for release, rust like the clam cleat an upward pull does the trick probably because the whole cleat distorts slightly.

 

Just like to straighten that misconception out. :)



#71 Zonker

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 02:33 AM

After the "Anna" capsize I went out and bought big cam cleats and mounted them right beside the genoa winches. (out cat is a big genoa / small main rig so easing the genoa sheet first is important). Yes we keep the sheet tails in the cam cleats after using the

#72 Zonker

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 02:37 AM

Stupid phone! "after using the self tailers to grind." Does sound a bit like the Anna capsize. Boat reefed down in potentially squally weather, especially if a cold front was expected. But I agree with Chris, you usually get some warning of the gust front. Perhspz in this case it was too noisy to hear the wind arrive...

#73 rog2

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 03:10 AM

This is how they recommend selftailers

IMO way too many wraps for a fast release but they need to protect the self tailing mechanism.

Attached File  IMG_9427.JPG   53.55KB   4 downloads

#74 LionIsland

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 07:44 AM

On any multi- cruising or racing. (Doesn't make any difference if you get hit by a squall!!??) in any breeze above 10 knots it's perfectly ok to leave it in the self tailor with the winch handle still in or put it in a clam cleat. Just make sure I'm not on board, thanks. That's a suicide mission.

If you've ever seen a sheet wrapped around a winch handle in an emergency release or fought like hell to get that sheet out of a clam cleat as things go terminal you'll know just what I mean.
Best to just make it a blanket rule on board. Take it out of the self tailor once you've used it and put it the cam cleat. If it's breezy, take the handle out too. As for clutches on sheets and travellers, madness. I had the experience on a 34' lightweight racing cat in 30-40knots of being put in charge of releasing the traveller through a clutch if need be even though there was a free winch to use but being told not to use it. Oh boy, that didn't work out at all well. Major handstands across Port Philip Bay before pulling down the whole mainsail. Banjo players. " Thanks for the ride. Don't call me, I'll call you!"
On any multi- cruising or racing. (Doesn't make any difference if you get hit by a squall!!??) in any breeze above 10 knots it's perfectly ok to leave it in the self tailor with the winch handle still in or put it in a clam cleat. Just make sure I'm not on board, thanks. That's a suicide mission.

If you've ever seen a sheet wrapped around a winch handle in an emergency release or fought like hell to get that sheet out of a clam cleat as things go terminal you'll know just what I mean.
Best to just make it a blanket rule on board. Take it out of the self tailor once you've used it and put it the cam cleat. If it's breezy, take the handle out too. As for clutches on sheets and travellers, madness. I had the experience on a 34' lightweight racing cat in 30-40knots of being put in charge of releasing the traveller through a clutch if need be even though there was a free winch to use but being told not to use it. Oh boy, that didn't work out at all well. Major handstands across Port Philip Bay before pulling down the whole mainsail. Banjo players. " Thanks for the ride. Don't call me, I'll call you!"

#75 pyrat

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 02:55 PM

Who the fuck leaves a winch handle installed...? That's 40 lashes on any boat in any mode!!



#76 REW

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 06:57 PM

Interesting dialog, several thoughts. I am privileged to be regular crew aboard Arete', the ORMA 60 tri currently racing on the Great Lakes. We took possession of Her in Sete' France and bright her to the lakes with multiple crew combos. While all of us had prior extensive multihull experience, we were light on anything of the magnitude of an ORMA 60. Lessons and observations in no particular order:

1. The boat is not as scary as expected. It took time to get accustomed, but there is considerable more time to react than on smaller multis. If you don't know what to do/how to recover, you're screwed. But there is time and communication is key.

2. We had the upside up system and have completely removed it. The owner has no intention of short handing (solo or double). The mainsheet is hydraulic with release triggers all over the boat (all manual). Traveler can be released from the helm or cockpit.

3. You couldn't survive on the boat without Self tailers, and the boat is perfectly survivable with them (and we see lots of microbursts and storm cells on the lakes). There are times in storm conditions where tails are hand held, but this is the extraordinary exception rather than the norm. When helming in breeze it si SOP to have the helmsman with the traveler tail coming off of the winch (in tailer or cam as appropriate) and draped across his lap.

4. Crew coordination and training is critical. One of the assigned cre positions is to keep the cockpit cleaned up and organized. Winch handles are never left engaged and always put away. Lines are cleaned up and properly stowed after every maneuver. The boat is a spaghetti machine and tangled lines would be killer.

5. We do distance racing with 7 people with 4 on and 3 off. 1 person comes on and one off every hour, and everyone rotates through every position on the boat. Positions are grinder, cockpit cleanup/grinder, pit boss, helm. Everyone drives. We feel that this system keeps our performance up and keeps us safe. There are also times when all hands are up.

Mistakes on multis are punishing (like capsize). Unless a design is inherently flawed, one ultimately has to blame the crew for these incidents. Experience, procedure, training, communication and chemistry are critical and it can take time to develope. It does sometime happen to the best, and if you could actually talk to them you'd probably find that they know exactly what they did wrong.

Some technique doesn't directly translate from smaller to larger boats, because the loads increase dramatically as does the time to react.

REW

#77 Steve

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 07:49 PM

REW, any plans to do the Trans Superior next year? would love to se a machine like that do the race.

 

Steve.



#78 Steve

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 07:52 PM

I have a pair of the large ones that I picked up at a marine consignment store in Florida years ago. Have not used them yet but who knows.



#79 Steve

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 07:54 PM

oops, that was supposed to be in reference to the large clam cleat sheet release gizmo.



#80 Rasputin22

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 08:52 PM

Steve. You are going to need a pair of large ones on a tri like ARETE. 

 

     Maybe you could show them to us. The sheet release clam gismos. Are they CLAMCLEAT brand? 



#81 REW

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Posted 24 November 2016 - 09:11 PM

REW, any plans to do the Trans Superior next year? would love to se a machine like that do the race.
 
Steve.


Yes, Trans Superior is on the schedule.

#82 Joli

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 04:08 AM

REW, just have to ask, does the crew all go below for a meal while the boat is sailing in unsettled weather?

#83 REW

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 04:13 AM

NFW.....ever

#84 Wess

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 01:03 PM

REW - why not keep upside up for safety redundancy on short handed deliveries?

#85 REW

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Posted 25 November 2016 - 03:15 PM

REW - why not keep upside up for safety redundancy on short handed deliveries?


These systems are not better than good crew, but as implemented on this boat were intended to make the boat solo-able across the Atlantic. There is quite a legacy of ORMA 60's with up side up systems up side down. Maybe a state of the art current system could inspire more confidence in such a solution, but it is nowhere on the priority list now.

This one was circa 2002 and like everything on the boat, had been on life support Maintenance since the ORMA class imploded in 2007. We've been on an ongoing process of stripping everything off that was antiquated or non functional and replacing and simplifying wherever possible. It is a massive project, and as well we've had to learn to sail the boat....making good progress on all counts. The list over the winter and spring actually looks manageable.

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#86 trackday

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 12:00 AM

I know it as Upside Up, but it's made by Ocean Data Systems. Once it's dialled in and tested it's great, but most of the boats that I know don't use it.

 

http://www.oceandata...olutions-ods/en

We do use USU for all cruising applications and release parameters are in the following order:

- Angle of heel

- rate of change in angle of heel

- angle of pitch (for this you generally only release the headsail and not the mainsail)

- % of change in TWS

- shroud load

 

Shroud load is not a great release parameter for the following reasons:

- lashed shrouds require a inline sensor because a standard load pin cannot interpolate the load spread over the distance of the lashing... spend $$$ for a inline sensor

- dynamic loads can simulate hull fly and trigger false alarm

- the loads decrease after 15 degrees of heel so you must set a "if then" statement that looks like this; "if heel angle is > X and the shroud load is decreasing, then release.

- You must create a different shroud load release statement for each sail configuration because as the center of effort of the sail plan decreases, the shroud load increases to generate hull fly.

 

We do use USU while racing but with scary high parameters so we do not experience a false release.  The primary feature we use are the "dump buttons" at each helm position and the forward cockpit.   When the boat is being sailed at the limit, these are used every watch (especially if the traveler is in the lower quarter of its range)!  Using this feature, the mainsail will dump 1m for each touch in 1 second.

 

For winch release systems, the flipper cams have been mostly replaced with a much more reliable pneumatic drive pin that pushes the line out of the cam

 

 

Attached File  B_Cam.jpg   294.94KB   10 downloads



#87 Rasputin22

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 12:47 AM

Trackday,

 

    Thank you so much for offering some real info on the USU system. I will have to read it carefully a few more times as there is so much that it reveals. Thanks also for the comment about the 'Flip Cams' and the photo of the vertical drive pin release for the sheet from the jaws of the cam. That makes a lot of sense and I would like to hear more on the recent improvements on the system overall. I love the idea of 'dump buttons' in key positions that would equate to my 'tongue in cheek' post of the Easy Button earlier. You have added a new element of validity to this thread and hope you continue contribute. 



#88 bruno

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 02:59 AM

Just fitted a harken trigger release cam on the gross side of main sheet last summer, seems pretty good so far



#89 trackday

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 03:53 AM

I have noticed in this thread that some readers view the presence of self tailing winches as correlating to poor seamanship.  Given that winches are multitasking hardware it seems impossible to make a broad statement about the suitability of ST winches in the cockpit.

 

One great use of ST winches is to combine them with the B-Cam cleat that I showed in my previous post.  In this case the sheet comes off of the winch with the minimal number of wraps for a rapid release of the sheet.  The sheet then passes through the B-Cam cleat leaving a loop of sheet that you desire to have released beyond the cam and before placing the sheet in the ST.

 

Using this method, the amount of sheet release is controlled and the sail is ready to sheeted back in for the proper trim.



#90 rog2

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 07:46 AM

I have noticed in this thread that some readers view the presence of self tailing winches as correlating to poor seamanship.

Not true, more like a poor choice for sheet winches.

Self tailers require a minimum number of wraps to protect the tailing mechanism. That number may not be consistent with a clean release, particularly in an emergency.

It's all very well to have self tailers and cam cleats but I bet that every now and then sheets are left in the self tailer. Without self tailers that risk is removed.

#91 trimariner

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 02:13 PM

Piver designed flip sheet cams 40 or more years ago almost the same as the ones pictured but his cams were mounted on a hinge plate where the angle was below the line of pull. Under capsize loads this would flip and the cam would release the sheet. Identical to the up side up theory but not released electronically. Not much new under the sun! Cheers all.



#92 trackday

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 05:12 PM

To: rog2
Sheet winches are not dedicated to trimming sheets. Driven winches are used for hoisting halyards, furling lines, and gybing sheets. When line is coming off the winch at 2.5 to 3m /sec, a self tailer is needed. Simply put, there is a reason for all the sheet winches on racing boats such as the MOD70 having ST',

To: Trimmariner.
Take a look at the USU cam cleat again where a pneumatic driven pin drives the line out of the cam. It is new. Times have changed

#93 rog2

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 06:32 PM

To: rog2
Sheet winches are not dedicated to trimming sheets. Driven winches are used for hoisting halyards, furling lines, and gybing sheets. When line is coming off the winch at 2.5 to 3m /sec, a self tailer is needed. Simply put, there is a reason for all the sheet winches on racing boats such as the MOD70 having ST',

Granted, but we are not talking about racing boats we are talking about short handed cruising boats on autopilot with the crew having dinner.

#94 Keith

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 08:22 PM

Self-tailing winches are a fine tool for trimming, or hoisting, or handling a line, once you've completed that job, then the sheet line comers out of the self-tailer and goes into a cam cleat, for quick release, be it automated or manual, that's all folks.



#95 Wess

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:41 PM

Ignoring the preachy bits from some there is a lot of good information in this thread.    Thanks for this (and the prior post) Trackday... an extreme H2O endorsement says something.  Going to have to dig through their site to see what options exists for smaller boats without hydraulics.

 

I have noticed in this thread that some readers view the presence of self tailing winches as correlating to poor seamanship.  Given that winches are multitasking hardware it seems impossible to make a broad statement about the suitability of ST winches in the cockpit.

 

One great use of ST winches is to combine them with the B-Cam cleat that I showed in my previous post.  In this case the sheet comes off of the winch with the minimal number of wraps for a rapid release of the sheet.  The sheet then passes through the B-Cam cleat leaving a loop of sheet that you desire to have released beyond the cam and before placing the sheet in the ST.

 

Using this method, the amount of sheet release is controlled and the sail is ready to sheeted back in for the proper trim.



#96 blip

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 10:51 PM

It's very easy (and cowardly) to second guess and attempt to assign blame to these experienced sailors.  It sounds like they did everything right.  They're alive.  It's sailing.  Shit happens. 



#97 pyrat

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 11:46 PM

IMO there's a lot of wisdom to be gained from all the opinions above, though not all of it necessarily applies to the majority of multi-hulls, the majority of the time, nor does it apply (from what I understand, without inside knowledge) to the Leopard incident.

 

The 'anti-self tailing/cam cleat only' crowd has a great point - WHEN when the boat is being raced and/or pushed very hard. But the reality is that most performance multihulls spend most of their offshore passages (non-racing/deliveries) significantly underpowered, sailing at 75%-85% of their potential, which makes most of these 'hard and fast rules' about cam cleats and all a moot point.

 

On Gunboats, it seems you spend spend most of our time offshore trying to slow down, rather than speed up (except in very light wind) and have never been so powered up that we felt like capsize or even flying a hull was anywhere near a possibility. It would take double or more the apparent wind to bring us to the point of 'sheet in hand' sort of sailing, and if we got there, we would decide we were pushing unnecessarily hard for being on a delivery passage, and subsequently reduce sail. This is backed up by the fact that all of my other multi-hull captain/friends tend to average 250-300 mile days on delivery, which as you know is well slower than potential.

 

If you are sailing hard enough that you're concerned about a 25% sudden increase increase in velocity, sure - skip the self-tailer and turn the autopilot off. OR just reduce sail and slow the boat down. Sounds like that's what happened on Leopard. If you're so underpowered that you're only making ~7 knots on a performance cat, then chances are that a wind event strong/sudden enough to capsize you won't be avoided with any sheet-management system, be it an 'Upside-Up' type system, or a cam-cleat+manual steering tactic.

 

But who knows - never met a sailor yet who's seen everything there is to see at sea..



#98 soma

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 01:14 AM

In 100k miles on performance cruising cats I can think of twice that I'd have wanted an UPU system (but thankfully didn't actually need it). One squall mid-Atlantic where the wind went abruptly from 15-20 up to 60-70 for an hour with no notice, then a cattabatic puff under St. Vincent, from 8-10 up to 45 knots. Both situations we had full main and solent.

Otherwise I was fine with self-tailers.

Soma, Extreme, and Arête are different types of boat IMHO.

#99 Wess

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 02:06 AM

IMO there's a lot of wisdom to be gained from all the opinions above, though not all of it necessarily applies to the majority of multi-hulls, the majority of the time, nor does it apply (from what I understand, without inside knowledge) to the Leopard incident.

 

The 'anti-self tailing/cam cleat only' crowd has a great point - WHEN when the boat is being raced and/or pushed very hard. But the reality is that most performance multihulls spend most of their offshore passages (non-racing/deliveries) significantly underpowered, sailing at 75%-85% of their potential, which makes most of these 'hard and fast rules' about cam cleats and all a moot point.

 

On Gunboats, it seems you spend spend most of our time offshore trying to slow down, rather than speed up (except in very light wind) and have never been so powered up that we felt like capsize or even flying a hull was anywhere near a possibility. It would take double or more the apparent wind to bring us to the point of 'sheet in hand' sort of sailing, and if we got there, we would decide we were pushing unnecessarily hard for being on a delivery passage, and subsequently reduce sail. This is backed up by the fact that all of my other multi-hull captain/friends tend to average 250-300 mile days on delivery, which as you know is well slower than potential.

 

If you are sailing hard enough that you're concerned about a 25% sudden increase increase in velocity, sure - skip the self-tailer and turn the autopilot off. OR just reduce sail and slow the boat down. Sounds like that's what happened on Leopard. If you're so underpowered that you're only making ~7 knots on a performance cat, then chances are that a wind event strong/sudden enough to capsize you won't be avoided with any sheet-management system, be it an 'Upside-Up' type system, or a cam-cleat+manual steering tactic.

 

But who knows - never met a sailor yet who's seen everything there is to see at sea..

 Absolutely agree with your comments above.  The number suggest Leopard saw something like a 3X increase in wind speed (25 knots to the about 75 knots it would take to put them over with the stated sail combination - if my math is correct).  The one bit I don't know nearly enough about is what the upside up system can and can't handle... but the theory that it might have been able to deal with it (a safety redundancy) is interesting enough that I want to learn more as we are looking at going back to an offshore cruising performance cat.

 

The other thought that occurs is that as much as I hate hydraulics and want to keep the new boat simple as possible, hydraulics are maybe unique (?) in that "dump" buttons could be located in multiple areas of the boat.

 

So much to learn from when we last did this so many decades ago.



#100 pyrat

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 02:35 AM

 

IMO there's a lot of wisdom to be gained from all the opinions above, though not all of it necessarily applies to the majority of multi-hulls, the majority of the time, nor does it apply (from what I understand, without inside knowledge) to the Leopard incident.

 

The 'anti-self tailing/cam cleat only' crowd has a great point - WHEN when the boat is being raced and/or pushed very hard. But the reality is that most performance multihulls spend most of their offshore passages (non-racing/deliveries) significantly underpowered, sailing at 75%-85% of their potential, which makes most of these 'hard and fast rules' about cam cleats and all a moot point.

 

On Gunboats, it seems you spend spend most of our time offshore trying to slow down, rather than speed up (except in very light wind) and have never been so powered up that we felt like capsize or even flying a hull was anywhere near a possibility. It would take double or more the apparent wind to bring us to the point of 'sheet in hand' sort of sailing, and if we got there, we would decide we were pushing unnecessarily hard for being on a delivery passage, and subsequently reduce sail. This is backed up by the fact that all of my other multi-hull captain/friends tend to average 250-300 mile days on delivery, which as you know is well slower than potential.

 

If you are sailing hard enough that you're concerned about a 25% sudden increase increase in velocity, sure - skip the self-tailer and turn the autopilot off. OR just reduce sail and slow the boat down. Sounds like that's what happened on Leopard. If you're so underpowered that you're only making ~7 knots on a performance cat, then chances are that a wind event strong/sudden enough to capsize you won't be avoided with any sheet-management system, be it an 'Upside-Up' type system, or a cam-cleat+manual steering tactic.

 

But who knows - never met a sailor yet who's seen everything there is to see at sea..

 Absolutely agree with your comments above.  The number suggest Leopard saw something like a 3X increase in wind speed (25 knots to the about 75 knots it would take to put them over with the stated sail combination - if my math is correct).  The one bit I don't know nearly enough about is what the upside up system can and can't handle... but the theory that it might have been able to deal with it (a safety redundancy) is interesting enough that I want to learn more as we are looking at going back to an offshore cruising performance cat.

 

The other thought that occurs is that as much as I hate hydraulics and want to keep the new boat simple as possible, hydraulics are maybe unique (?) in that "dump" buttons could be located in multiple areas of the boat.

 

So much to learn from when we last did this so many decades ago.

 

 

Tis true - some of the GBs offer as many as 6 trim stations which house both 'Main In & Main Out' control buttons. These can be found on either side of the interior helm, on either side of the forward cockpit, plus one next to each of the aft-mounted winches (near the transom - but not found on all GB's). In addition, there are two very large/visible/accessible 'DUMP' buttons that will blow the ram in an emergency situation.

 

Pros:

-very convenient for trimming from any position around the boat

 

-Less risk of someone mishandling the mainsheet - ie opening the wrong clutch or unwrapping the wrong winch in a busy cockpit

 

-Since the load is massive on the main, there is a safety factor in not having to handle that line manually. Not so critical for pro crew maybe, but if you're pitching these things to owner/operators... 

 

Cons:

 

-I'm still not entirely comfortable with relying on a Hydraulic system to control my mainsheet - especially on a performance cat for obvious reasons. There's something to say about having a manual winch and line in front of you

 

-The ease and trim are a bit slow - certainly slower than the average winch would be

 

-The 15' hydraulic ram & block add a tremendous amount of weight and complexity inside the boom, and often make life difficult when trying to manipulate reefing lines, outhauls, etc through the cavity

 

-I've never had to use the emergency dump button, but imagine that the release might be violent enough to tear the mainsail as it flogged into the spreaders. With a mainsheet on a winch, you could dump very quickly whilst still maintaining enough control to lock it when you feel the power spill (hopefully before blowing up your mainsail, which would be its own nightmare to recover on a boat like that)

 

-There has been one report of in-boom hydraulic ram leaking all its fluid out during an offshore passage, and it turns out, unsurprisingly, that its pretty difficult to jerry-rig a main sheet on a boom which was never designed to couple with a standard mainsheet.






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