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BOLO: abandoned sailboat drifting towards Antigua


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#1 ridgerunner

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 05:58 PM

http://www.maritimeh...north-atlantic/

 

S/V Dove II
MMSI: 232005948
Call Sign: MAMW2
Flag: United Kingdom [GB]
AIS Vessel Type: Sailing Vessel, 53', single masted sloop, white hull, red sail covers

 

Owner/ skipper now in Antigua, waiting for position updates.  He is over at CF,  "allwentwrong", can be contacted there.

 

 

Attached Files



#2 smackdaddy

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 06:22 PM

Bummer of a name.

 

 

He is over at CF,  "allwentwrong", can be contacted there.

 

 



#3 smackdaddy

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 07:23 PM

I just read through the thread over at CF. Tough situation. Honestly, though, I think it's a mistake for him to go back out - especially on his own. 2 ships and a yacht have already helped him and his family out with a successful outcome. Putting him back on a broken boat that he couldn't deal with in the beginning is just asking for more trouble. Of course, without tracking, it's a very long shot finding her anyway.

 

Time to move on.



#4 Billy Backstay

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 07:50 PM

Bummer of a name.



He is over at CF,  "allwentwrong", can be contacted there.[/size]


Name should be "HOVE II"!!

EDIT: Tried to sign up on CF, but not getting their email telling me how to complete registration?

#5 ridgerunner

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 09:59 PM

From vesseltracker.com:

RECENT NEWS Yacht abandoned in Atlantic 
On Dec 21, 2016, the s/y "Tilly Mint" rescued the crew of five of the "Dove II" which was damaged by a storm off Martinique. At 7.30 p.m., the CROSS AG was contacted by its French CROSS counterpart, relaying the distress call of the English sailboat which had lost its rudder in the middle of the Atlantic. She was located about 1000 km east of Fort-de-France. The weather conditions were particularly harsh with a swell of up to six meters. There were two children on board, and the 17-meter sailboat was drifting helpless in the storm. The skipper was in contact with the English maritime authorities who provided moral support and technical advice. The CROSS diverted the cargo m/v "Newseas Jade", underway to Lagos, to the yacht. She arrived non Dec 18 at 1:20 a.m. The weather conditions during Dec 19 make evacuation attempts very delicate and several attempts failed. The vessel agreed to remain close to the sailboat in order to act as a breakwater and to monitor the development of the situation. The CROSS then asked the "Asia Pearl V" to assist too. She arrived on zDec 20 at 7:30 a.m. Protected by the other freighter, she attempted several maneuvers to approach the yacht in very hard sea conditions. These failed too, and the CROSS then asked the merchant ships to stay in the area until another sailboat, the "Tilly Mint", reached the scene. Protected by the two cargo ships, the crew of the "Dove II" embark on their liferaft which was immediately recovered by the "Tilly Mint". None of them required medical assistance. The "Dove II" was left adrift, and the two cargo ships have resumed their initial voyages after their help help to safeguard the lives of the five boaters. 



#6 J88Hornet

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 10:08 PM

Pirates will find it and give her a good home.



#7 nolatom

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:51 PM

Kudos to the two bulk carriers, both Chinese-owned and managed, who diverted from course and tried to rescue, and then stood by creating some sheltered water for the rescue by S/V  "Tilly Mint". 

 

We sometimes trash merchant ships (they crash our race courses) and are sometimes too quick to speculate as to how a missing sail vessel "was probably run down by a ship" when it turns out not to be so.   But those ships have come to the rescue of how many sailors, with no thought of money or reward?  We kind of take this for granted, along with the Coast Guards of whatever nation.

 

 

 

Full disclosure:  retired USCGR, who represents ships for a living.  So I tend to stick up for both..



#8 ridgerunner

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 04:24 PM

hey you never know, at least the owner is trying:

 

 

URGENT $10,000 REWARD FOR RECOVERY
sadly we had to abandon our yacht DOVE II 460nm due east of Antigua on the 21/12/16. We are now trying to find out where it is with the hope of recovery and carrying on with our adventure.
It should now drifting towards the islands.

Could I ask people to keep a sharp lookout for it and report any sightings to myself or the coastguard. Many thanks James

 

You can read the full story of what actually went wrong on our blog.westerlyadventures.wordpress.com

 

 

 

 

CHRIS PARKER’S DRIFT ANALYSIS:
The following is Chris Parker’s drift analysis as of January 6, 2017:
Abandonment: 12z/21Dec 16-32N/52-39W
AIS#1: 1530z/21Dec 16-35N/52-43W...calculations...
since Abandonment: 305T, 5 miles, 3.5 hours, 1.4k
AIS#2: 17z/22Dec 17N/53-10W...calculations...
since AIS#1: 314T, 36 miles, 25.5 hours, 1.4k
since Abandonment: 314T, 41 miles, 1.4k
AIS#3: 12z/23Dec 17-16N/53-29W...calculations...
since AIS#2: 311T, 24 miles, 19 hours, 1.3k 
since Abandonment: 313T, 65 miles, 1.35k
Based on the above, motion during the 48 hours after abandonment was consistent...during each 1 of the 3 time intervals between data points, the motion varies +/- fewer than 10-deg (the only point which differs more than 2-degrees from the average is the 1st point, which is only 3.5 hours after Abandonment, and since it's such a short distance it's subject to more error in my calculations).
So if we throw-out that 8-deg of variation in the 1st 3.5 hours...the deviation from the 48 hour average in the other 2 timeframes is only 2-degrees.
Speed variation is 0.05k (less than 4%).
So, essentially, the vessel during the initial 48 hours after abandonment moved very steadily 313T@1.35k.
Thus, my assessment of this morning's location remains unchanged: 21-03N/59-22W
Given the upcoming weather forecast, I would guess the vessel will drift mostly NW at a slower pace until a ColdFRONT thru about Mon9...then a strong ColdFRONT moves in, and should cause the drift to shift to the SW.
On this trajectory, the vessel could end-up moving SW into the N Coasts of the Virgins, PuertoRico, or the DR, probably in 2-3 weeks.
Of course, if anything onboard changes during this time, (double-reefed mainsail, drogue, etc)...or if the vessel responds differently in the very strong wind/seas during the week of Mon9, she could drift at a significantly different direction/speed.



#9 spin echo

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 05:50 PM

10,000 bucks for recovery? Anyone that finds the yacht, is pretty much the new owner.



#10 solosailor

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 05:52 PM

Yeah, weird to offer $10k when someone will get much more dollars legally via salvage rights.



#11 stumbler

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:01 PM

Or they could, you know, give the boat back to the people who just went through an awful ordeal and pocket $10,000. Kind of a karmic and financial win/win. 



#12 Parma

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:13 PM

Or they could, you know, give the boat back to the people who just went through an awful ordeal and pocket $10,000. Kind of a karmic and financial win/win.


but owning the boat againis going to cost the former owner a lot of boat bucks so whoever the salvor turns out to be would be saving them a lot of money and also potentially be stopping them from killing themselves in some similar fashion in the future so that would also be kind of like a karmic financial win-win.

#13 ridgerunner

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:21 PM

I have been wondering what a realistic salvage claim (or, I should say, settlement) might be, if, for example, someone locates the boat and tows her 100 miles to Tortola.  IIRC, Matt Rutherford would have earned around $45k had he be been able to tow that Swan 700 miles to Bermuda.

 



#14 stumbler

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:49 PM

 

Or they could, you know, give the boat back to the people who just went through an awful ordeal and pocket $10,000. Kind of a karmic and financial win/win.


but owning the boat againis going to cost the former owner a lot of boat bucks so whoever the salvor turns out to be would be saving them a lot of money and also potentially be stopping them from killing themselves in some similar fashion in the future so that would also be kind of like a karmic financial win-win.

 

 

Touche



#15 nolatom

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:07 PM

Gross generalization here, but salvage claims that involve towing, absent any immediate risk of loss, or other unusual difficulty or risk, are typically compensated at something akin to commercial towage rates.



#16 Canal Bottom

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:33 PM

Does any of the brain trust have any ideas why the rudderless boat could not be brought under any type of control.  Control that would have gotten them close enough for a standard tow to any island?



#17 Gallagher

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:39 PM

I was thinking the same thing....would have thought a little creative balanced sail trim and maybe a drogue would have got them somewhere.....but I wasn't there, so my point has no point.



#18 us7070

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 05:54 PM

I was thinking the same thing....would have thought a little creative balanced sail trim and maybe a drogue would have got them somewhere.....but I wasn't there, so my point has no point.

 

i havent' been on a boat on the ocean without a rudder...

 

but boats that lose rudders often end up being abandoned - sometimes emergency steering works and some times it doesn't.

 

i think one big issue is the sea state.., and probably also the wind speed

 

this was apparently in some kind of storm with high seas

 

emergency steering that might work in calmer conditions may not be up to the task in more challenging conditions

 

also.., i can only imagine that with the big seas, the motion of the boat bust have been _terrible_. 

 

the crew has little or no directional control, the sails aren't doing anything, the boat is often broadside to the waves...

 

even sailors who never get seasick might want to get off in that situation

 

i think if they had a sea anchor, they could probably have kept the bow into the waves  - which would have been more comfortable - and waited for conditions to moderate. a drogue might help with steering once the boat is moving.., but if they just want to wait with the bow into the waves, i don't think a drogue would be much use.



#19 Sail69

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:15 PM

This...

 

http://bermudarace.c...e-new-approach/  



#20 us7070

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:26 PM

 

i've practiced with a drogue, and it worked.., but the waves were pretty small.

 

i am not sure it will work on all hull and keel types though

 

also, when we practiced, the boat still had a rudder.., so the boat tracked quite well

 

without a rudder.., it would not track nearly so well



#21 us7070

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:37 PM

the drogue i practiced with wasn't a real drogue - it was made by connecting a few canvas buckets



#22 irazu

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:46 PM

I remember some boats doing it during the Caribbean1500 a number of years ago, think they may have had a stub of a rudder at least.  I would imagine its easier upwind than downwind, but I've never had to do it, fortunately.



#23 Sail69

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:35 PM

 

 

i've practiced with a drogue, and it worked.., but the waves were pretty small.

 

i am not sure it will work on all hull and keel types though

 

also, when we practiced, the boat still had a rudder.., so the boat tracked quite well

 

without a rudder.., it would not track nearly so well

 

 

If you read the article he dropped his rudder for the demonstration which greatly enhances replicating the real-thing.  I believe the lack of rudder also aids in allowing the transom to swing and therefore re-direct  the boat.

 

Whether it would work in a heavy sea-state?   Dunno but if you could stay within a 30 degree arc on either side of of your intended course it seems better than abandoning ship.   Don't want to judge their decision, but this seems to be an assist in a very difficult situation. I keep a real drogue aboard just for this very reason.



#24 nolatom

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:44 PM

Don't know exactly here, but crew exhaustion is not to be underestimated in gauging what can reasonably done to save the boat.

 

I would venture to guess that at least half of the Coast Guard's rescues are of sick, beat-up, exhausted people from an otherwise basically seaworthy boat.

 

 

That said, i like the drogue video.  Am trying to think of how to improv one from materials typically on hand.  But the drogue itself is so small and light, there's not much reason not to try one.  You could use the chain from your rode for the pennant.

 

In calm weather for day-trippers or buoy-hoppers, a good dinghy with an outboard, on the hip, can maybe sub for a dead engine, and for gone steering or rudder.  Save you a towing bill.



#25 inarathree

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:46 PM

Obviously I wasn't there, but according to the woman's blog they weren't taking on water, and called for help after about an hour.

 

This was not a good situation to be in, in fact it was everything I feared happening to us. The good news at this point, because when it goes wrong you’ve got to find some good, were that because the stock was still in place we weren’t taking on water, also the children though aware of what had happened were unconcerned and quickly fell asleep. I was in a very dark place, we were side on (broad side) to the wind, which becomes very loud and very there when your not going with it but also to the swell, so we were rolling badly with the boat being knocked down with each set that came through, it was terrifying, after an hour I said to Jim that I wanted to phone for help. I used the satellite phone and pressed the button that Jim had programmed in to call Falmouth coastguard.

 

But there is also this recount from another vessel where they sailed 1500 miles with no rudder.

 

http://www.yachtingw...to-sail-69460/2



#26 cruisinfool

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:12 PM

 

I was thinking the same thing....would have thought a little creative balanced sail trim and maybe a drogue would have got them somewhere.....but I wasn't there, so my point has no point.

 

i havent' been on a boat on the ocean without a rudder...

 

 

 

 

 

I have.... 40 miles east of New Zealand.  Fiberglass rudder shaft snapped like a carrot in sharp beam seas.

 

Only way we could make a drogue work was with a sloppy hankerchief of a head sail and sail a beam reach, which luckily pointed us towards the bay of islands at 3 knots.  Every time i tried to trim the sail to make it more efficient we fell out of balance... every time we tried to point higher or lower, it fell out of balance.  This jury rig got us within towing range, which was a complete shit show, but a story for another day.



#27 Sail69

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 08:26 PM

 

 

I was thinking the same thing....would have thought a little creative balanced sail trim and maybe a drogue would have got them somewhere.....but I wasn't there, so my point has no point.

 

i havent' been on a boat on the ocean without a rudder...

 

 

 

 

 

I have.... 40 miles east of New Zealand.  Fiberglass rudder shaft snapped like a carrot in sharp beam seas.

 

Only way we could make a drogue work was with a sloppy hankerchief of a head sail and sail a beam reach, which luckily pointed us towards the bay of islands at 3 knots.  Every time i tried to trim the sail to make it more efficient we fell out of balance... every time we tried to point higher or lower, it fell out of balance.  This jury rig got us within towing range, which was a complete shit show, but a story for another day.

 

Cruisin...was the drogue off your quarter(s) or your beam(s)  as in the video...?



#28 troof

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:30 PM

OK, so the boat is in extremis. Rudder gone. but no hole in boat. big waves, wind. WWJD? idk. I'm inclined to launch the JSD, drop sails and Call Pan Pan so as not to be run down. Get the crew in the cabin and calm their shit down. When storm subsides: cogitate and put into action self steering and use some fenders and what haves to warp off the drogue. any other ideas? 



#29 cruisinfool

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 09:49 PM

Drogue was on a bridle with a block off the stern.  We played with angles but did not make a difference. Also should note this is a 46' sloop, light-ish displacement with blade keel.



#30 Alex W

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:45 PM

OK, so the boat is in extremis. Rudder gone. but no hole in boat. big waves, wind. WWJD? idk. I'm inclined to launch the JSD, drop sails and Call Pan Pan so as not to be run down. Get the crew in the cabin and calm their shit down. When storm subsides: cogitate and put into action self steering and use some fenders and what haves to warp off the drogue. any other ideas? 

It's been a few weeks since I've read the skipper's report, but I think that they tried to do exactly that.  Without a rudder they couldn't get the boat to lie hove-to, and waves were coming on abeam and throwing the boat around violently.  That made getting rest very difficult.  I don't know long they attempted to wait it out.  The information to find that report is in the first few posts.

 

It seems like there is a good reason for OSR to have emergency rudder requirements for ocean crossings, and I'm surprised that more cruisers don't carry one. 



#31 troof

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:06 AM

 

OK, so the boat is in extremis. Rudder gone. but no hole in boat. big waves, wind. WWJD? idk. I'm inclined to launch the JSD, drop sails and Call Pan Pan so as not to be run down. Get the crew in the cabin and calm their shit down. When storm subsides: cogitate and put into action self steering and use some fenders and what haves to warp off the drogue. any other ideas? 

It's been a few weeks since I've read the skipper's report, but I think that they tried to do exactly that.  Without a rudder they couldn't get the boat to lie hove-to, and waves were coming on abeam and throwing the boat around violently.  That made getting rest very difficult.  I don't know long they attempted to wait it out.  The information to find that report is in the first few posts.

 

It seems like there is a good reason for OSR to have emergency rudder requirements for ocean crossings, and I'm surprised that more cruisers don't carry one. 

 

 

yes, agreed. Basic guidelines from offshore races will cover most contingencies. BTW, I'm certainly not second guessing any decisions made by the unfortunate crew, as these are educational thought experiments that I (we) can learn from. 



#32 irazu

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:38 AM

They also had kids on board, which makes it a whole different ballgame.  Anyone that  has sailed with kids knows, those that haven't have no idea.



#33 Canal Bottom

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:53 AM

Maybe you can show me one?  But, I have never witnessed any workable emergency rudder solution for a boat with a thru hull rudder on a stock.  Some with cassettes maybe.  But, the ones where you are supposed to rig a spinnaker pole and a floorboard lashed on?  That is never going to fly in a seaway.

 

In this case the mom wanted off, the CG told the mom to get off.  That was the end of that.  The Dad tried to stay.  The Dad could not get any control over the boat.  I am just surprised something small on the bow along with dragging shit behind would not let the trades take him somewhere in the caribbean for a tow. He got off when he fouled the prop with a line and damaged the main in a gybe. 



#34 tane

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 08:54 AM

10,000 bucks for recovery? Anyone that finds the yacht, is pretty much the new owner.

your totally mistaken there! This is definitely NOT the case.



#35 gmacon

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:52 PM

I guess this why serious cruisers, or "Pardey" type sailors opt for the older CCA type boats, or full keel boats for long distance offshore sailing...  



#36 Sail69

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:30 PM

Drogue was on a bridle with a block off the stern.  We played with angles but did not make a difference. Also should note this is a 46' sloop, light-ish displacement with blade keel.

 

Cruisin...my understanding of the working drogue solution is that the placement of the bridle control points on the beam(s) made all the difference.  Manipulating the drogues forces originating at the center, or pivot point, of the vessel  allowed the drogue to twist the boat enough to control it.



#37 Alex W

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:04 PM

Maybe you can show me one?  But, I have never witnessed any workable emergency rudder solution for a boat with a thru hull rudder on a stock.  Some with cassettes maybe.  But, the ones where you are supposed to rig a spinnaker pole and a floorboard lashed on?  That is never going to fly in a seaway.

 

 

Most that I see are a fully independent system that is mounted on the transom.  Like this one from Raven (CM1220?):

emergency-rudder.jpg?w=640

 

Or this one on Limitless (an Express 37):

IMG_9815-M.jpg

 

I feel more comfortable with how Raven's is tied into the transom, but both seem functional and since they are completely independent systems they'll handle any failure mode of the spade rudder that doesn't leave a big hole in the boat.  When walking docks in the PNW I see similar systems on every boat that has done one of the cross-pacific races.



#38 2slow

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:19 PM

I guess this why serious cruisers, or "Pardey" type sailors opt for the older CCA type boats, or full keel boats for long distance offshore sailing...  

yep, those new fangled "fin keels" are death traps!



#39 spin echo

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:24 PM

 

10,000 bucks for recovery? Anyone that finds the yacht, is pretty much the new owner.

your totally mistaken there! This is definitely NOT the case.

 

 

Yes, the salvor is not the automatic new owner, but depending on the level of salvage, it may entitle them essentially to the 100% value of the vessel.

 

http://www.wavetrain...-abandoned-boat

 

"Consider all these factors together, and you'll note they strongly favor the salvor. The idea being that salvors should not only be compensated for their time and trouble; they should also receive a substantial premium as an inducement to render assistance in the first place. In a "low-order" salvage, where the risk to a salvor is negligible and the salvaged vessel was in little danger, the premium will be relatively small, but in a "high-order" salvage the total award can, under the law, be as high as (though it may not exceed) 100 percent of the value of the salvaged vessel and its contents. Also, salvors automatically get a high-priority lien on any vessel they save and may keep the vessel until the owner posts security."



#40 us7070

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 05:31 PM

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.

 

as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone



#41 TPG

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:26 PM

I remember some boats doing it during the Caribbean1500 a number of years ago, think they may have had a stub of a rudder at least.  I would imagine its easier upwind than downwind, but I've never had to do it, fortunately.

 

The year the hylas lost its rig another lost most of its rudder and used a drogue to steer the rest of the way. They said it was a challenge but it worked.



#42 foginmythroat

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:11 PM

 

"Consider all these factors together, and you'll note they strongly favor the salvor. The idea being that salvors should not only be compensated for their time and trouble; they should also receive a substantial premium as an inducement to render assistance in the first place. In a "low-order" salvage, where the risk to a salvor is negligible and the salvaged vessel was in little danger, the premium will be relatively small, but in a "high-order" salvage the total award can, under the law, be as high as (though it may not exceed) 100 percent of the value of the salvaged vessel and its contents. Also, salvors automatically get a high-priority lien on any vessel they save and may keep the vessel until the owner posts security."

So...bottom line $10,000 might not cut it.

It's fortunate no one was lost or injured. Losing a boat on the other hand hurts. I have total empathy for the owners.



#43 gn4478

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:07 AM

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.
 
as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone



I believe the requirements this past race were that we had to practice a method. On my boat, a gale rider on a bridle brought amid-ships worked well under power and sail.

#44 dash34

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:14 AM

 

10,000 bucks for recovery? Anyone that finds the yacht, is pretty much the new owner.

your totally mistaken there! This is definitely NOT the case.

 

Last time I researched this, the rules said that the salvor can place a lien against the boat for all expenses incurred in the salvage, and storage until the lien is paid.    If the boat has already been written off by the insurance company and paid out to the owner, the insurance company becomes the owner.  Are they likely to want to pay out again to the salvor?  

 

So, while technically it is correct that you are not automatically the owner of a salvaged vessel, there are lots of circumstances where you actually end up with the boat with no further outlay. 

 

Somebody say something if I have this wrong...



#45 us7070

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:21 AM

 

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.
 
as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone



I believe the requirements this past race were that we had to practice a method. On my boat, a gale rider on a bridle brought amid-ships worked well under power and sail.

 

 

 

how big were the waves?

 

 

i practiced with a drogue in waves of about 1 ft

 

and i know for a fact that boats have been approved with the spin pole and door method



#46 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:22 AM

Thanks to Blogs like the antics of the hot chick and her dopey BF on La Vagabonde there will be more and more of this. Buy a boat and head off with zero clues, and as soon as anything goes slightly wrong they want to get off.



#47 us7070

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 02:26 AM

Thanks to Blogs like the antics of the hot chick and her dopey BF on La Vagabonde there will be more and more of this. Buy a boat and head off with zero clues, and as soon as anything goes slightly wrong they want to get off.

 

losing a rudder 1000 miles from land is worse than "slightly wrong"



#48 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:04 PM

Thanks to Blogs like the antics of the hot chick and her dopey BF on La Vagabonde there will be more and more of this. Buy a boat and head off with zero clues, and as soon as anything goes slightly wrong they want to get off.

 
losing a rudder 1000 miles from land is worse than "slightly wrong"
With the closest lee shore a thousand miles away they would have had plenty of time to work out how to steer it.

#49 us7070

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:33 PM

 

 

Thanks to Blogs like the antics of the hot chick and her dopey BF on La Vagabonde there will be more and more of this. Buy a boat and head off with zero clues, and as soon as anything goes slightly wrong they want to get off.

 
losing a rudder 1000 miles from land is worse than "slightly wrong"
With the closest lee shore a thousand miles away they would have had plenty of time to work out how to steer it.

 

 

the article quoted above says the seas were 6m

 

without a rudder, you can't even sheet a sail...

 

with no sails working, and no directional stability, the motion of the boat, especially the rolling, would have been awful for any sailor.., and possibly dangerous for his kid.

 

do you do much ocean sailing?

 

i do a few thousand miles of ocean sailing in a typical year - not  a huge amount perhaps - but enough to know how ugly it can get. i've done that transatlantic route that he was on a few times

 

i don't fault the guy at all for wanting to get off when he could.

 

it's not like a rescue vessel would have stayed with him for a day or two while he worked on the emergency steering. when they are there, you either get off, or you don't and then the freighter or whatever leaves.

 

and, then you are sitting there with your wife and kid on a boat with no rudder 1000 miles from land.., not knowing when or if there will be another chance to get off if the situation gets worse.

 

i think he did the right thing



#50 Parma

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:18 AM

without a rudder, you can't even sheet a sail...


why not!!!??

i have, unless i was imagining things or misremembering.

#51 us7070

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:26 AM

 

without a rudder, you can't even sheet a sail...


why not!!!??

i have, unless i was imagining things or misremembering.

 

 

what i should have said is "without directional stability you can't even sheet a sail"

 

what i was trying to get across is that without directional stability you won't get the resistance to rolling that having sheeted sails provides

 

if the boat is just spinning in circles - tacking and gybing endlessly - you will have to take the sails down



#52 irazu

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:49 AM

 

I remember some boats doing it during the Caribbean1500 a number of years ago, think they may have had a stub of a rudder at least.  I would imagine its easier upwind than downwind, but I've never had to do it, fortunately.

 

The year the hylas lost its rig another lost most of its rudder and used a drogue to steer the rest of the way. They said it was a challenge but it worked.

 

I got dismasted doing the trip too.  I was landlocked going into withdrawal after coming back from the Caribbean on my own boat.  So I hopped on a Caribbean1500 boat (Passport44) as crew and we got dismasted a day or so away from Tortola.  That'll teach me.



#53 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 01:21 AM

 

 

 

Thanks to Blogs like the antics of the hot chick and her dopey BF on La Vagabonde there will be more and more of this. Buy a boat and head off with zero clues, and as soon as anything goes slightly wrong they want to get off.

 
losing a rudder 1000 miles from land is worse than "slightly wrong"
With the closest lee shore a thousand miles away they would have had plenty of time to work out how to steer it.

 

 

the article quoted above says the seas were 6m

 

without a rudder, you can't even sheet a sail...

 

with no sails working, and no directional stability, the motion of the boat, especially the rolling, would have been awful for any sailor.., and possibly dangerous for his kid.

 

do you do much ocean sailing?

 

i do a few thousand miles of ocean sailing in a typical year - not  a huge amount perhaps - but enough to know how ugly it can get. i've done that transatlantic route that he was on a few times

 

i don't fault the guy at all for wanting to get off when he could.

 

it's not like a rescue vessel would have stayed with him for a day or two while he worked on the emergency steering. when they are there, you either get off, or you don't and then the freighter or whatever leaves.

 

and, then you are sitting there with your wife and kid on a boat with no rudder 1000 miles from land.., not knowing when or if there will be another chance to get off if the situation gets worse.

 

i think he did the right thing

 

'do you do much ocean sailing?'  Not really - only about 150 000 miles over the past 40 years. Only do a few thousand each year these days. If lotus eaters like him only prepared properly they wouldn't need a day or so to get an emergency rudder working. A few hours would do it.

I am sure the guy thought the seas were 6 mts. 2 mts looks like that to know nothing fools that think they can buy a production boat and head of to see the world with fuck all experience. Trust me mate I have been teaching people to ocean sail full time for the past 24 years.

I get one of these each week knocking on my door. They are all going to buy a boat in Europe, and sail it home doing a few charters on the way. They don't need many lessons - after all they have charted in Greece before. They know boats.



#54 us7070

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 01:31 AM

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.

 

i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.

 

still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too



#55 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 02:28 AM

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.

 

i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.

 

still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too

No, but part of my prep would have been a well engineered and tested back up steering system in case of rudder loss. 



#56 RobG

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 03:17 AM

Kudos to the two bulk carriers, both Chinese-owned and managed, who diverted from course and tried to rescue, and then stood by creating some sheltered water for the rescue by S/V  "Tilly Mint".


Perhaps their lives at sea are boring as hell, so anything out of the ordinary is a welcome break.  :P

 

But yes, good of them to go out of their way to provide assistance.



#57 Weyalan

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 04:32 AM

 

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.

 

i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.

 

still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too

No, but part of my prep would have been a well engineered and tested back up steering system in case of rudder loss. 

 

Whoa, Nelly.... this is hardly the place for that sort of talk!



#58 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 05:06 AM

 

 

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.

 

i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.

 

still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too

No, but part of my prep would have been a well engineered and tested back up steering system in case of rudder loss. 

 

Whoa, Nelly.... this is hardly the place for that sort of talk!

 

:)



#59 Omer

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:54 AM

Would it not be possible for either of the cargo ships to attempt to tow the vessel  to a convenient location  or just out of bad weather so that a proper tow could be arranged. 

With another yacht being close to the scene, i would imagine passing a tow line would be somehow possible.



#60 Panoramix

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 10:54 AM

Would it not be possible for either of the cargo ships to attempt to tow the vessel  to a convenient location  or just out of bad weather so that a proper tow could be arranged. 

With another yacht being close to the scene, i would imagine passing a tow line would be somehow possible.

 

To tow a sailboat in rough seas,  speed is limited at 4 or 5 knots may be and cargo ships have better things to do. Salvage cost would really quickly exceed the yacht value. At sea you only have to rescue lives, salvage is something commercial and using big cargo ship to do it is not economical.



#61 us7070

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 04:38 PM

 

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.

 

i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.

 

still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too

No, but part of my prep would have been a well engineered and tested back up steering system in case of rudder loss. 

 

 

if i had that requirement, i would probably never do a bermuda race...

 

i would guess that fewer than 10% of the boats have what i would call a "well engineered" back up steering system. and as far as testing - except for the article linked above.., i don't think anybody tests without a rudder in place.

 

and, i'll bet nearly everybody doing the required test does it with the rudder/wheel locked off on centerline!

 

i've done a lot of ocean racing on boats on which i had very little faith that the system would work in any kind of challenging weather conditions

 

i've also raced on boats with the cassette rudder system - that's the one i trust the best.

 

i have also done a lot of ocean sailing - more cruising than racing - on a boat with a vane autopilot that supposedly was designed to steer the boat if the rudder is lost. but i never got to try it without a rudder.



#62 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:29 AM

so, your position is that you wouldn't have done the crossing on this boat in the first place.
 
i don't know what kind of boat it is.., but i guess that's fair enough.
 
still, if i were on that boat, in that place and at that time, with my family, i probably would have gotten off too

No, but part of my prep would have been a well engineered and tested back up steering system in case of rudder loss.
 
if i had that requirement, i would probably never do a bermuda race...
 
i would guess that fewer than 10% of the boats have what i would call a "well engineered" back up steering system. and as far as testing - except for the article linked above.., i don't think anybody tests without a rudder in place.
 
and, i'll bet nearly everybody doing the required test does it with the rudder/wheel locked off on centerline!
 
i've done a lot of ocean racing on boats on which i had very little faith that the system would work in any kind of challenging weather conditions
 
i've also raced on boats with the cassette rudder system - that's the one i trust the best.
 
i have also done a lot of ocean sailing - more cruising than racing - on a boat with a vane autopilot that supposedly was designed to steer the boat if the rudder is lost. but i never got to try it without a rudder.

A few years back I couldn't get a lift out in time to do a rudder repair on a Davidson one tonner I owned at the time, so we swam it out.
Whilst it was out being worked on we had a go at using the emergency rudder ( precut board bolted to the spin pole) it was a good exercise and caused us to do a few mods - mainly about getting it deep enough and keeping it there. Version 2.3 worked a treat in the end and I have used the lessons learnt on every one I have designed since. Emergency steering is a pet subject of mine after spending 7 hours rolling around in a 3-4 mtre swell after we lost the rudder in an offshore race in the early 90's. when I was active as a safety auditor a few years back I gave this information to every boat I inspected. BTW it is a requirement for cat 0 - 3 races here in Aus. Not sure about ISAF (or the WWF or what ever they call themselves now) special regs and i am to lazy to look it up.

#63 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:32 AM

And I agree a cassette or transom hung system is the best idea but obviously can't work on many boats.

#64 gn4478

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 01:54 PM

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.
 
as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone


I believe the requirements this past race were that we had to practice a method. On my boat, a gale rider on a bridle brought amid-ships worked well under power and sail.
 
 
how big were the waves?
 
 
i practiced with a drogue in waves of about 1 ft
 
and i know for a fact that boats have been approved with the spin pole and door method


We were practicing in Raritan bay and some little chop. Waves could complicate things I'm sure! The race requirements did not specify what type of system had to be practiced. I've thought about going transatlantic and have considered installing pintall/gudgeon emergency system. But more likely a windvane self steering system with integral rudder. Never heard of a Bristol losing her rudder.

#65 us7070

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 02:44 PM

 

 

 

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.
 
as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone


I believe the requirements this past race were that we had to practice a method. On my boat, a gale rider on a bridle brought amid-ships worked well under power and sail.
 
 
how big were the waves?
 
 
i practiced with a drogue in waves of about 1 ft
 
and i know for a fact that boats have been approved with the spin pole and door method


We were practicing in Raritan bay and some little chop. Waves could complicate things I'm sure! The race requirements did not specify what type of system had to be practiced. I've thought about going transatlantic and have considered installing pintall/gudgeon emergency system. But more likely a windvane self steering system with integral rudder. Never heard of a Bristol losing her rudder.

 

 

 

the system may work on your boat on the ocean - hopefully you never find out

 

i think it's more likely to work on your boat than say a race boat with a narrow chord keel, and flat-ish bottom

 

my point is that the the bermuda race really isn't taking this requirement seriously - yet.

 

they approve almost anything

 

most of the "practice" takes place on flat water, in light winds, with a rudder in place.., and that rudder is likely locked off - this is nothing like the real-world situation.

 

the reason they are not serious about it is that on many of the boats that typically do the race, it would not be a simple thing to engineer a system that could be guaranteed to work in waves and high winds, for say 300 miles, on a variety of points of sail. many of the boats would probably require some sort of vane-like mounting system on the transom. so, if they ever got serious about it, a lot of owners would probably decide it's not worth the trouble.



#66 gn4478

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 04:48 PM

the bermuda race organizers keep threatening to get serious about this requirement.
 
as of the last race, it seems that at least some inspectors will approve just about anything you can imagine - my guess is that a lot of them won't actually work on the ocean with the rudder gone


I believe the requirements this past race were that we had to practice a method. On my boat, a gale rider on a bridle brought amid-ships worked well under power and sail.
 
 
how big were the waves?
 
 
i practiced with a drogue in waves of about 1 ft
 
and i know for a fact that boats have been approved with the spin pole and door method

We were practicing in Raritan bay and some little chop. Waves could complicate things I'm sure! The race requirements did not specify what type of system had to be practiced. I've thought about going transatlantic and have considered installing pintall/gudgeon emergency system. But more likely a windvane self steering system with integral rudder. Never heard of a Bristol losing her rudder.
 
 
the system may work on your boat on the ocean - hopefully you never find out
 
i think it's more likely to work on your boat than say a race boat with a narrow chord keel, and flat-ish bottom
 
my point is that the the bermuda race really isn't taking this requirement seriously - yet.
 
they approve almost anything
 
most of the "practice" takes place on flat water, in light winds, with a rudder in place.., and that rudder is likely locked off - this is nothing like the real-world situation.
 
the reason they are not serious about it is that on many of the boats that typically do the race, it would not be a simple thing to engineer a system that could be guaranteed to work in waves and high winds, for say 300 miles, on a variety of points of sail. many of the boats would probably require some sort of vane-like mounting system on the transom. so, if they ever got serious about it, a lot of owners would probably decide it's not worth the trouble.

I agree with you. In reality, I don't know what the incidence of rudder failure is during the Bermuda race but I suspect it is quite low. My boat does balance very easily so is easier for any backup system. With close to 30k lbs of displacement and a longish keel, wave action isn't so bad. If sailing downwind was a option for the situation, just putting up a working jib and a stern drogue would work on most boats. Hopefully get close to land and help. At the end of the day, I'm sure the family was far more concerned about the life of their kid than salvaging the boat. In 2013, coming back from Bermuda we were in a gale for close to 3 days with winds a steady 40 with gusts. Seas were very large, 25-30 feet with some breaking. We had up a heavy weather jib rolled up like a storm jib. Main was down. Didn't bother with the trysail. We were close reaching at about 3 kn towards our home. Floating like a duck. Felt safe. My only concern was that I had brought my 16yr old. The seas shifted and ended up on the port quarter. At night, not being able to see the waves was interesting. We did have one big one break on us from the beam. Glad we were tethered in. The entire boat seemed underwater. Rolled to about 50-60 degrees. Down below, the crew thought we had been rammed by a freight train!

#67 shaggybaxter

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:05 PM

Interesting topic this. IMO, this is relevant for certain dual rudders designs too. We dropped one rudder out to do a repair, and had to move the boat (motor) no more than 100mtrs. It handled like some drunken boozer hag at closing time.
It felt like you'd lost a lot more than 50% of your surface area, which is probably exacerbated by the cant on the rudders.
Regards sailing, going to windward on one rudder would be fine (just dont tack) , but I wouldn't like to be pushing any speed downhill on the Pogo with one rudder, to make it worse in strong winds it's not that easy to slow down unless you run bare poles or a drogue.
LB, would your solution be applicable with fat bottomed girls? (Ie:dual rudder setup)

Edit: I thought in any emergency, having one rudder would be plenty, now I'm not so sure .

#68 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:20 PM

Interesting topic this. IMO, this is relevant for certain dual rudders designs too. We dropped one rudder out to do a repair, and had to move the boat (motor) no more than 100mtrs. It handled like some drunken boozer hag at closing time.
It felt like you'd lost a lot more than 50% of your surface area, which is probably exacerbated by the cant on the rudders.
Regards sailing, going to windward on one rudder would be fine (just dont tack) , but I wouldn't like to be pushing any speed downhill on the Pogo with one rudder, to make it worse in strong winds it's not that easy to slow down unless you run bare poles or a drogue.
LB, would your solution be applicable with fat bottomed girls?

With your boat we will be fine Shaggy. A helicopter can land in the cockpit. But seriously a couple of gudgeons on the transom with a emergency rudder kept under the bunk. Carbon of course! We will need to think about this before Gladstone but the second rudder meets the criteria as I recall. Luckily no sunfish is big enough to take out both your rudders.

#69 us7070

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:24 PM

I guess i don't really understand why even newer race-oriented boats don't seem to have considered fitting an emergency rudder when designing the boat, rather than leaving it up to the owner to retro fit something

 

the new J/121 for example.., that's an offshore boat - does the design have any feature that will make it easy to mount an emergency rudder?

 

edit - i guess i should have specified "newer race-oriented monohulls" - on the gunboats, and i guess other big multi's, you can replace a rudder in a couple of minutes



#70 multi_n

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 07:57 PM

Here is a link to a video about the rescue done by the crew on Tilly Mint.

You can see the sea state was quite severe and the transfer was complicated.

https://www.youtube....h?v=e8bfj2Mx65k



#71 sparau

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 11:25 PM

I guess i don't really understand why even newer race-oriented boats don't seem to have considered fitting an emergency rudder when designing the boat, rather than leaving it up to the owner to retro fit something

 

the new J/121 for example.., that's an offshore boat - does the design have any feature that will make it easy to mount an emergency rudder?

 

 

 

In this case it was a Hanse and it would have been better if they had engineered the rudder as a starting point.  Photo's on CF show another Hanse where the glass had peeled off the "structure" which just left a few aluminium bars, no lateral surface in it at all.

 

From the original post on CF:

 

 

 

I took one look under the stern and saw that the rudder post and frame work were still intact but the actual grp had completely delaminated and had torn off. Nightmare!!


#72 Alex W

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 04:44 PM

Here is a link to a video about the rescue done by the crew on Tilly Mint.

You can see the sea state was quite severe and the transfer was complicated.

https://www.youtube....h?v=e8bfj2Mx65k

 

Thanks for posting that.  We watched it start to end and it was pretty interesting and awesome that they captured so much of it on video.

 

I'm still annoyed that more boats meant for transocean crossing don't come with a backup rudder as a factory option (or at least a guide on the best way to do it for that particular vessel).



#73 mid-fleet buoy racer

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 05:46 PM

Why wouldn't you deploy a drogue off the bow, and ease the motion until the sea state settles down?  I was surprised not to hear this mentioned in this thread..



#74 Parma

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:04 PM

Here is a link to a video about the rescue done by the crew on Tilly Mint.
You can see the sea state was quite severe and the transfer was complicated.
https://www.youtube....h?v=e8bfj2Mx65k


would it be inappropriate to comment that in that video the conditions don't look very bad?

#75 us7070

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:18 PM

Why wouldn't you deploy a drogue off the bow, and ease the motion until the sea state settles down?  I was surprised not to hear this mentioned in this thread..

 

i think you mean a sea anchor - not a drogue.

 

they probably didn't have a sea anchor, and i wouldn't be surprised to learn that they didn't have a drogue either

 

although some people now do use the terms interchangeably.., they once meant different things

 

a sea anchor is meant to hold a boat more or less stationary with respect to the sea - it is deployed of the bow, and will hold the bow into the waves and into the wind

 

a drogue is meant to slow a boat down - typically if they are running before the wind and the waves.., and are in danger of pitch-poling as they surf down big waves too fast. the drogue is deployed from the stern and holds the boat so that the bow is pointed down the waves



#76 mid-fleet buoy racer

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 06:24 PM

I would have taken my shittiest jib and streamed it off the bow with a long piece of nylon braid.  Fuck that rolling around beam-to...



#77 multisail

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:33 PM

Good evening,
I have posted this illustration on a different thread a few days ago.

This was our third attempt at building an emergency rudder on a Farr 38 many years ago. We were about 400 miles north of the Cape Verdes when we lost our rudder and sailed the boat back to port unassisted. It never crossed our minds to call for help.

Attached Files



#78 RKoch

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:51 PM

Good evening,
I have posted this illustration on a different thread a few days ago.

This was our third attempt at building an emergency rudder on a Farr 38 many years ago. We were about 400 miles north of the Cape Verdes when we lost our rudder and sailed the boat back to port unassisted. It never crossed our minds to call for help.

That's a pretty slick jury rudder. But in this case were talking a family inc two kids. Mom pretty much has full time job minding the kids. Perhaps the two men could have rigged a jury rudder. But it would have been a hell of a job sailing, particularly since no autopilot could be fitted. It's obvious in 20/20 hindsight they should have done a better rudder inspection and had an emergency rudder rig on board. But under the circumstances it probably wasn't a bad decision to abandon. Rescue was right there, and the boat is easier to replace than lives.

#79 Wess

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:44 PM

I guess i don't really understand why even newer race-oriented boats don't seem to have considered fitting an emergency rudder when designing the boat, rather than leaving it up to the owner to retro fit something

 

the new J/121 for example.., that's an offshore boat - does the design have any feature that will make it easy to mount an emergency rudder?

 

edit - i guess i should have specified "newer race-oriented monohulls" - on the gunboats, and i guess other big multi's, you can replace a rudder in a couple of minutes

 

No intent to slam GB or any other but not so sure that is correct.  All fine and dandy if its just the rudder blade that is damaged and the bearing(s), associated structure, arms, linkages, etc... are good but what if damage is more than the blade.  Then you are not just sliding a new one in, no?

 

Not sure what the rule requires but either way I would look for some means by which to jury rig a stand-alone set-up.... but this is all far less an issue on a cat where the chance of losing both rudders is minimal and by sailing conservatively having just one is still sufficient to easily make way.



#80 us7070

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:36 PM

yes - in order to use the wheel, the linkages have to be intact.., but you could easily fit a tiller on rudder too

 

the boats will get home with one rudder

 

if the bearings are somehow locked up, that would be more of a problem, but i doubt they'd be locked up on both sides



#81 cd66312

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 05:33 PM

If something like this:

http://www.skysails....or-cargo-ships/

 

could tow a rudderless boat, it could make for a great backup to both loosing a rig or the rudder.  Anyone have experience with these?






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