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Fastest 19' Daysailer?


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#1 CJV

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:08 PM

Hello,
I'm looking for a fast 19' daysailer that has a good line and can use a 150% genoa as well as a spinnaker (symmetrical or other), an outboard, and seats 6. I'm limited to a 19' slip in my Long Island, NY town marina, so

A Sonar minus 4' would be about right.

The Rhodes 19 comes close, but seems lower performing than the Sonar.

The Flying Scot is too basic.

My current boat is a Hunter 19, but I won't go there...

Any other thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

#2 Schnick

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:18 PM

going fast and seating six will be an issue. How about a flying Dutchman? 150 genoa, kite, pretty fast, if you don't want to trap you will want three people crammed on to it.

#3 dumbass

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:30 PM

going fast and seating six will be an issue. How about a flying Dutchman?  150 genoa, kite, pretty fast, if you don't want to trap you will want three people crammed on to it.

And don't forget the chainsaw to get the FD down to 19 feet in length.

#4 Schnick

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:32 PM

Shit, I knew they were big, but I didn't think that big. My bad, sorry.

#5 Bull Gator

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:33 PM

Viper 640, or Johnson 18.....

#6 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:33 PM

If you could squeeze in 20' you'd have more options. Maybe cut the transom off something...;-) Thinking Harbor 20, Ultimate 20, boats like that.

#7 Still

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:34 PM

Viper 640. Christian, who visits the board regularly, sails one out of Westport Conn. The boat is currently listed for sale in the SA classifieds. There used to be a very informative website re Viper 640's maintained by the Marblehead fleet, but I believe that site is "down." I don't think its a genny boat, but its about as much hi-po fun as you're likely to have at 19 feet.

#8 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:35 PM

I think the Viper is 21 feet, the Johnson 18 is a fun ride but only for 2.
Get a an old Venture 19 and "turbo" it? Turbo the Hunter?

#9 sailman

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:37 PM

Try an MX-20. Nice little sport boat with a cabin.

http://www.sailboatl...gs.com/view/215

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#10 dumbass

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:42 PM

Ok seriously, how about the Buccaneer 18? You can get used ones cheap. Viper 640 is too long.

#11 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:46 PM

Looks like another opportunity for the boatbuilders to offer yet another niche filler....

#12 MarkS

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 05:19 PM

Get a Lightning.

#13 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 05:26 PM

Get 3 Lido 14s and start your own fleet.

#14 pin head

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 05:46 PM

easy there Mr. Mark.


I'll slap a Disciplinary Action on you.

#15 7.9 sailor

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 06:19 PM

Some 15 to 19 footers in order of preference:

Lightning
Highlander (actually 20' but take the rudder off when at the dock!)
Buccaneer
Y-flyer
Fireball
Geary 18
MC Scow
505
Thistle

just a start....

#16 Schnick

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 06:23 PM

My math says that a Thompson 590 would come in jsut over 19 feet, so yank the rudder off and you might be OK. Check out the Tboats website, it's linked from the sailing anarchy 'links' page.

#17 Mike Hunt

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 06:32 PM

Try an MX-20. Nice little sport boat with a cabin.

http://www.sailboatl...gs.com/view/215

$29K for one of these!? 9 years old at that!

This boat will be for sale for a while.

:blink:

#18 sailman

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 06:36 PM

No one said you had to pay that much. I'd offer 12k and see what happens.

#19 EthanB

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 06:53 PM

You don't actually have to fit w/in the 19' of the slip do you? if you stick out a couple feet, no worries.

#20 Essex

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 08:22 PM

19' huh, how bout you forger the daysailer thing and go look on ebay for a nice drag boat, big ol 454 with chrome headers on back, low single seater hull with nice flame job.

#21 CJV

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:37 PM

Thanks all for the great feedback.

Guess I wasn't thinking about the 6 people thing, esp since we crew J/24s with no more than 5.

You are all right, that MX 20 is a sweet looking boat!

The 150% is for summertime light air, though I guess a Doyle UPS or equiv would do.

The slip length requirement is due to the size of the channel into which it protrudes. The Harbormaster and the pump-out boats park alongside and require maneuvering room.

CJV

#22 Schnick

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:46 PM

How about one of the Hobie cat (17?) varieties that has wings for seating?

#23 SPORTSCAR

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 10:01 PM

Contact Alan H about a custom Home Depot 19! It may be slow but at least it's cheap.

#24 H20

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 11:37 PM

Ideal 18? looks like a big boat only smaller. Non overlapping jib tho

#25 rudimentary

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 12:16 AM

Lightning has to be on the list....Ideal 18 is slow but would otherwise work...the old Proctor design Osprey would be suitable but rare...the Front Runner 19 would be an awesome candidate if you can find one....Geary 18 comes to mind....If you measure a Hotfoot 20 without the rudder it will be very close to 19'....not much for performance but an otherwise fun boat is the Edel 540.....the old "Jollyboats" would fit the bill...

#26 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 12:51 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...&category=26433

http://cgi.ebay.com/...&category=26433

#27 fasttack

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 01:25 AM

NOMAD IS A FUN BOAT!BUT,THREE TO RACE.TWO TO FOUR TO CRUISE.A-SAIL!

Nice Job Dave K

#28 Christian

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:29 AM

Viper 640.  Christian, who visits the board regularly, sails one out of Westport Conn.  The boat is currently listed for sale in the SA classifieds.  There used to be a very informative website re Viper 640's maintained by the Marblehead fleet, but I believe that site is "down."  I don't think its a genny boat, but its about as much hi-po fun as you're likely to have at 19 feet.

Thanks for the plug. The Viper is 21 feet so if 19 feet is a hard limit (I used to have a slip with a 19 foot limit and thay didn't bitch about the Viper in the slip) you would be out of luck. Also - you could probably fit 6 people on the Viper but it would be crowded and not fast (unless it's really piping). The boat sails optimal with 3 or 4 people. Mine is still on the market and you are welcome to come to Westport for a ride.............I'm sure you'll have a blast. BTW - the OD sail config is a 90% jib - but then on the other hand you have a 450 SQF spin - pretty good size for the boat. Fastest recorded speed I have gotten on the boat (GPS) is 26 knots.

I don't think you'll find ANY boat fitting all your criteria

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#29 Stiffler's Mom

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:56 AM

I TOTALLY plug the Viper... Have been beaten repeatedly by one here. The guy in Texas put a trap on it and he is fuckin GONE in a breeze. Looks stable too. 3 dudes at about 170# average. Check it out and tell more..

#30 Steve

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 04:18 AM

Look for an Eagle Tramp or Haines Hunter Tramp, a little long at 19ft6inches but will meet all your other wants and then some, if you are not familiar with these boats they are the 1st production glass Farrier folding trimarans built as the Haines Hunter in Australia and as the Eagle in the the US in the early 1980s, they are light(no ballast) easy to trail, huge cockpit you can actually sit IN on seats with backrests,molded in cooler,outboard in a sort of well,and if you are lucky you may find one with the optional tent that encloses the cockpit,they come up for sale occasionally in the $5-10k range although ive seen thm cheaper,one went on e bay last week for $4300. I cant think of a better boat for what you want. Im looking for the right deal on one myself to add to my fleet.

#31 Dave Kirkpatrick

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 01:22 PM

NOMAD IS A FUN BOAT!BUT,THREE TO RACE.TWO TO FOUR TO CRUISE.A-SAIL!

Nice Job Dave K

Hey that wasn't me. I agree with the guest's post, it is a perfect solution for this situation, that's why we made the boat. But I don't play like that, and I sign my name when I post, except the time when I had to wreck someone who was talking absolute crap about the Bulldog, which I can't handle.

#32 ejj

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 02:42 PM

[quote name='Dave Kirkpatrick' date='Mar 12 2004, 01:22 PM'][quote name='fasttack' date='Mar 12 2004, 01:25 AM'] [quote name='Guest' date='Mar 11 2004, 04:40 PM'] NOMAD IS A FUN BOAT!BUT,THREE TO RACE.TWO TO FOUR TO CRUISE.A-SAIL![/quote]
Nice Job Dave K [/quote]
Hey that wasn't me. I agree with the guest's post, it is a perfect solution for this situation, that's why we made the boat. But I don't play like that, and I sign my name when I post, except the time when I had to wreck someone who was talking absolute crap about the Bulldog, which I can't handle. [/quote]
[QUOTE]

I think the Nomad looks like fun--but question a few things:

Why the RM sails? The average buyer of these is not going to care/need/maintain...

Why the prices tag? It seems the general competition for this boat is cheaper.

#33 Dave Kirkpatrick

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 03:07 PM

RM sails, quite simply, because they are cool. Excellent shape holding, crisp, light, see through, etc. The mains hold up super well with the long battens and if you don't store the jib on the roller the jibs hold up fine too. Dacron sails available if you like.
Don't know what you're comparing price to but we can't afford to sell it as a loss leader to get people used to buying bigger and bigger boats from us like some boats which are in the general overall size/people holding capacity as the Nomad. Also, have you ever sailed one of the big boat builders small boats? The Nomad goes quickly, has outstanding helm response, is nimble, is pretty weatherly and gets downwind just fine as long as there is any breeze and is fun. Most of the similar (I hate to call them that) cheapie boats in the size range sail like something you wipe off your foot. We won't sell as many as they will, but the people who buy the Nomad are real sailors who will appreciate what they're getting into.
Beyond that, you pay for things to work the first time and into the future. The other boats are designed to be a three week fascination and then be driveway ornaments. Plus we know how to help one design classes, which believe it or not is happening to the Nomad already.

#34 ejj

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 04:47 PM

[quote name='Dave Kirkpatrick' date='Mar 12 2004, 03:07 PM']RM sails, quite simply, because they are cool. Excellent shape holding, crisp, light, see through, etc. The mains hold up super well with the long battens and if you don't store the jib on the roller the jibs hold up fine too. Dacron sails available if you like.
Don't know what you're comparing price to but we can't afford to sell it as a loss leader to get people used to buying bigger and bigger boats from us like some boats which are in the general overall size/people holding capacity as the Nomad. Also, have you ever sailed one of the big boat builders small boats? The Nomad goes quickly, has outstanding helm response, is nimble, is pretty weatherly and gets downwind just fine as long as there is any breeze and is fun. Most of the similar (I hate to call them that) cheapie boats in the size range sail like something you wipe off your foot. We won't sell as many as they will, but the people who buy the Nomad are real sailors who will appreciate what they're getting into.
Beyond that, you pay for things to work the first time and into the future. The other boats are designed to be a three week fascination and then be driveway ornaments. Plus we know how to help one design classes, which believe it or not is happening to the Nomad already.[/quote]
[QUOTE]

Ok--I admit I was baiting you a bit by mentioning "the competition." The Nomad seems like a great boat, and not a bad value for what you get. My main problem is that there aren't any on the used market for a better price. (I'm used to used MC scows.) I do like the sails, just curious how much a new jib/main would be after I destroy them....the boat actually reminds me of a modern version of the Thistle.

I haven't been able to sail it yet, but still hoping.

And no, I don't really think the Hunter/Catalina/Precision boats in the same size/capacity really compare well.

I need something that sails well/fun with two, but also comfortable for 4. Not many small boats like that out there.

I think they are trying to start a V15 fleet on my lake, which is nice, but doesn't fit my needs. (Boat would also be on a mooring)

#35 CJV

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 02:38 AM

Thanks all again. I'll consider this thread duly contributed to and note three great ideas that result from it:

- The MX 20 (too pricey)
- The Viper 640 (where do I put the 70 lb. outboard... I need to motor 2 nm to get into clear water)
- The Nomad (ditto)

Guess the latter two choices could be worked out albeit with some risk to the one-design integrigy.

Fair winds, all.

#36 ttarb2408

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 03:28 AM

If you have a ton of money for a new one, this is sure pretty

http://www.areyspond...ydaysailer.html
LOA x BEAM COCKPIT SIZE SAIL AREA DRAFT
18'8" x 6'11" 6' x 8' 121 SF Main
85.5 SF Jib 13" with ctrbd up
3'2" with ctrbd down
Carbon Mast and Spruce Boom
Cold Molded Hull Construction
Mahogany Rails & Coaming
Bronze Fittings including Bow Eye
Fully Battened Mainsail

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#37 TheBoathouse

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 01:32 PM

http://www.areyspond...ydaysailer.html

Ah, I think the thread was looking for a "rocket-ship"...thats no rocket! Used I'd look for a Viper 640 and new a Nomad....You can put a 2.5hp 25 pound motor on either one no problem.

#38 ttarb2408

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 01:58 PM

The thread also had reference to a six passenger, rhodes 19. No I do not think this is a rocket ship but it will fit in a 19' hole carry a motor and seat six easy. I would venture to say it may even beat a Rhodes 19.

#39 Bulkhead

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 07:03 PM

Where can more information be found on the Viper?

Anyone got a web link?

thx

#40 Christian

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 07:04 PM

Thanks all again. I'll consider this thread duly contributed to and note three great ideas that result from it:

- The MX 20 (too pricey)
- The Viper 640 (where do I put the 70 lb. outboard... I need to motor 2 nm to get into clear water)
- The Nomad (ditto)

Guess the latter two choices could be worked out albeit with some risk to the one-design integrigy.

Fair winds, all.

There are built-in backing plates for mounting an outboard bracket on the Viper. Could store the outboard under the deck while sailing (or leave it on the bracket if not racing). I have a channel to get out of when taking the boat out and I normally sail it out (don't use an outoard) or get a tow from one of the other boats. I agree that a 2HP @ less than 30 lb would be plenty to make it capable of 5-7 knots - it's a very light and the hull from is slippery.

#41 Christian

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 07:22 PM

Where can more information be found on the Viper?

Anyone got a web link?

thx

Here is an exert from my ad in the classified section here on SA (you can look there for the whole ad):

Boat is in great condition with a white/blue hull. Two full sets of sails (main, jib, spin) – Ullman and Quantum, one extra practice spinnaker, top, bottom and “bra” covers, mast cover, rudder bag, faired keel and rudder in 2003, galvanized trailer with spare. New chute sock, relatively new running rigging, extra spreader, four bolt rudder post, adjustable mast step, Windex, lifting bridle. Trading up to larger sports boat. Demo sail available in Westport CT.


Specifications
Length: 21 ft. 1 in. Beam: 8 ft. 2 in. Draft: 4 ft. 10 in. Displacement: 725 lbs. Ballast: 225 lbs. (including 185 lbs bulb)
Sail area – main & jib: 252 sqf. Spinnaker: 425 sqf.
Crew: two to four, typical all-up weight of 550 to 600 lbs.
vacuum bagged epoxy/Divynicell foam with quadraxial cloth. Carbon lifting bulb keel, carbon rudder and bowsprit

Also see: Data

#42 MoMP

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Posted 17 March 2004 - 11:57 PM

19 and change at the waterline, 20 overall. If you can wiggle the 15 and change beam in, you've got a fast as all hell boat, with more cockpit area than most 30 footers, and you'll be cool to boot.

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#43 Christian

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 09:47 AM


Yeah exept the FAST requirement - just kidding.  The Viper is definitely a faster boat - the U20 has some accomodations

Looks like the PHRF delta is about 15 secs per mile (Viper 640 at 95 and U20 at 110 on Chesapeak Bay)

Don't exactly think I would call the U20 slow and it does handle a small crowd of people pretty well but it's a kick to race with one or two.

Nope - the U20 rates 138 on the Chesapeake and the Viper 96 gives a delta of 42 secs/mile - not really that close

#44 dumbass

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 11:49 AM

Viper 640 is too long.

The Viper 640 is perfect, you can luanch from the trailer because of the lifting Bulb keel, it weighs 200 pounds roughly. The boat all up only weighs around 700. very easy to rig and go sailing. I can launch the boat into the water with a ramp and be sailing in under an hour. very fast and will plane at over 25 knots in big winds, but still an easy boat to handle if you have a brain screwed on your head.

Since one of the original requirements was that the boat be at most 19 feet long, a 21 foot long boat is too long.

#45 dumbass

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 12:07 PM

Highlander first (seating requirement)
Thistle second (best performance)
The Lightning,Nomad or J 18 won't touch either of them.

If you only needed the ability to seat 6 very rarely, you might be able to get away with a Thistle, but only in light winds. It's faster than the Highlander, but not by a large margin.

#46 ejj

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 04:31 PM

[quote name='dumbass' date='Mar 18 2004, 12:07 PM'][quote name='sebastian' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:06 AM'] Highlander first (seating requirement)
Thistle second (best performance)
The Lightning,Nomad or J 18 won't touch either of them.[/quote]
If you only needed the ability to seat 6 very rarely, you might be able to get away with a Thistle, but only in light winds. It's faster than the Highlander, but not by a large margin. [/quote]
[QUOTE]

The Thistle is a great boat, but not the best for sailing single. It is not the most comfortable boat out there either (think wives/kids/dogs). I think the Nomad is your best bet--relatively light, comfortable seats, lockers (and a mount for a
2 horse), sprit for a asym, comfortable interior that is easy to get around...and a new price of @14K.

#47 dumbass

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 04:12 AM

[quote name='ejj' date='Mar 18 2004, 04:31 PM'] [quote name='dumbass' date='Mar 18 2004, 12:07 PM'] [quote name='sebastian' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:06 AM'] Highlander first (seating requirement)
Thistle second (best performance)
The Lightning,Nomad or J 18 won't touch either of them.
[/quote]
If you only needed the ability to seat 6 very rarely, you might be able to get away with a Thistle, but only in light winds. It's faster than the Highlander, but not by a large margin. [/quote]
[QUOTE]

The Thistle is a great boat, but not the best for sailing single. It is not the most comfortable boat out there either (think wives/kids/dogs). I think the Nomad is your best bet--relatively light, comfortable seats, lockers (and a mount for a
2 horse), sprit for a asym, comfortable interior that is easy to get around...and a new price of @14K. [/quote]
Yeah, the Thistle can be painful to sail. Learned how to fly a chute on one back in 1970, so I have a little first hand experience.

The Nomad sounds like an interesting boat, but it is surprisingly slow - it's PH is 92.9, slower than a Lightning (87.5) or Buccaneer 18 (87.1). The Nomad has the advantage of an asym spin, so you might use it more often, reducing (or eliminating) the speed difference. But there are probabally few used inexpensive Nomads out there - there are plenty of cheap Highlanders, Lightnings, Buccaneers, and Thistles. I'll assume that racing isn't that important, so a well used noncompetitive boat would be an excellent option.

#48 dumbass

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 09:04 PM

What about the fine line of Chrysler products the Mutineer and Buckineer

The mutineer is too small. And I've already mentioned the Buccaneer (who now has a different builder than Chrysler) several times in this thread.

#49 CJV

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 04:02 AM

Well guys... Thanks for all the contributions.

My update is:
- Sold the Hunter 19
- Gave up the Town slip

Am now shopping for a 30 footer to keep on a mooring. Specs of the boat I'm seeking are forthcoming on a different post.

#50 Amati

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 05:31 AM

The Viper isn't that much faster than a U20. Funny, it looks LOT faster.
Tanzer used to make a what, 18? Carried a ton of people.

#51 dumbass

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 11:17 AM

Well guys... Thanks for all the contributions.

My update is:
- Sold the Hunter 19
- Gave up the Town slip

Am now shopping for a 30 footer to keep on a mooring. Specs of the boat I'm seeking are forthcoming on a different post.

Obviously a prime candidate for a Mac 26!

#52 The Squareman

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 06:29 PM

NACRA 6.0 and get rid of four friends! The selection process is simple - take them out indiviudally in about 18 knots and chop (or waves) the ones that come back are your friends, the others will gravitate toward "grandpa" boats!

"Fast" and "Lead Keel" are two words normally NOT used in the same description to describe a truly "FAST" boat. Just a one-eyed, un-leaded opinion, of course.




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