Jump to content


Wild Oats keel


  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#1 I'moutahere

I'moutahere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,810 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 05:57 PM

As to your comments about Wild Oats keel, I had the same thoughts. The keel wasn't visible in the TV footage taken from a helicopter as they sailed up the Derwent, and the boat was responding to wind gusts (with all the crew on the rail) far more than one would expect with only a small (100% of foretriangle) headsail. In all other TV footage from the air, the canting keels are very obvious.

#2 The Dude

The Dude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:44 PM

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.

#3 Liquid

Liquid

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,262 posts
  • Location:Portland, OR area

Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:57 PM

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.


How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T

#4 The Dude

The Dude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:13 PM

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.


How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T


The last Around Alone. I think only 1 Canter made it back alive. Please correct me if I am wrong.

#5 sshow bob

sshow bob

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,971 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:15 PM

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... :rolleyes:

#6 The Dude

The Dude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:23 PM

Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... :rolleyes:


The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????

#7 oomummado

oomummado

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 142 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:32 PM


Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... :rolleyes:


The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????



Canting keels are the future. Get over it.

#8 jdougherty

jdougherty

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,593 posts
  • Location:City Island, NY

Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:35 PM

yes, you're wrong, by a factor of 3 or 4. you also ignored three editions of vendee, two editions of around alone and every minitransat. do you actually have a point?


I think his point is that they are perceived to break a lot.

#9 sshow bob

sshow bob

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,971 posts
  • Location:Maine

Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:20 PM

Wow. That's just a lot of power!!

#10 Rail Meat

Rail Meat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,154 posts
  • Location:Mystic, CT
  • Interests:My ride: An OCD designed Class 40

Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:23 PM


Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... :rolleyes:


The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????


Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.

Yes, a free swinging keel caused by ram failure can be a real problem, which is why they have changed the rule to require tha the keel can be locked at center line. However, there have been very few situations where the keel has actually gone AWOL.

Let's put your wild eyed claim in perspective.
  • There have been a number of keels lost in the past few years (Bernard, Tim, Mike G). Should we outlaw boats with keels? (shut up to all the multi hullers out there. If you want to get into an offshore comparative safety pissing match you are going to lose).
  • There have been more mast failures on these boats in the past 5 years than canting keel failures. Does that mean that we should get rid of boats with masts?
  • Those pesky sails that keep exploding under wind pressure. I guess we should get rid of boats that have sails.
Face facts.... Canting keels are here to stay. They are not yet bullet proof, and will continue to be refined and improve, just as every other technology on boats has improved. The people who sail on these boats and in these races are well aware of all of the risks, keels included. Your namby pamby hand wringing ain't gonna change a thing.

#11 The Dude

The Dude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 09:23 PM



Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.


How many Open 60 canters have made it around the world at break neck speeds and survived????

T


The last Around Alone. I think only 1 Canter made it back alive. Please correct me if I am wrong.


yes, you're wrong, by a factor of 3 or 4. you also ignored three editions of vendee, two editions of around alone and every minitransat. do you actually have a point?

I am just repeating what is being said already. Canters are very cool & are here to stay. However Solo. Go & Get a "Steaming Cup Of Shut The Fuck Up" ....Jackass...Homo

s.



#12 The Dude

The Dude

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 554 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:01 PM

Love too Solo....But iI need to get back to work now....Matbe later....Cheers

#13 vibroman

vibroman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 954 posts
  • Location:LA... That would be lower Alabama

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:10 PM

Canters are cool form a lot of perspectives
Fact is, from a reliability perspective, the more complex a system is the less reliable it will be. Therefore canters will always be less reliable than their fixed keel counterparts period.
The question then becomes is how long will it be before the control mechanism design becomes "reliable enough" for ocean racing. Clearly up to now the systems appear to be under-designed. Especially if one considers the number of failures as a percentage of the total population. I think that they will get there eventually but it would appear to me that the designers do not yet fully understand the dynamic loads that are imparted to these devices in heavy weather.
Once they have that figured out it should be easy to develop the appropriate control mechanism. Once that is done I for one cannot wait for the technology to trickle down to us mere mortals. Provided they dont make be run the iron donkey to do it.
VM

#14 born2sail

born2sail

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,782 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwest

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:14 PM

Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.


I seem to recall a few problems with canting keels on a couple VG boats, too.

#15 nroose

nroose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,520 posts
  • Location:Berkeley

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:35 PM

Yes, canting keels are more complex than fixed keels.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Try building 2 boats that are the same speed. Give one a canting keel. it will have less ballast, so it will need less sail area, and less strength everywhere, which will make it lighter, so it can have even less sail area, etc. Once you optimize both boats to their design and required speed, I think you will have a cheaper, more reliable boat in the canter, because you will need less weight in the keel, and have, essentially, less boat.

I don't know how they build these things, but it should be possible to have a system that at least dampens the keel movement if the hydraulics fail. It doesn't have to be a system that requires you to be able to center it before you can lock it.

I don't dislike these things on their safety or reliability. I dislike these things on the fact that they are using a lot of diesel fuel to get to where they are going. However, I would not presume to tell others what they should do, I just don't like it.

#16 Rail Meat

Rail Meat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,154 posts
  • Location:Mystic, CT
  • Interests:My ride: An OCD designed Class 40

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:40 PM



Yeah, you are wrong. Canters have been proven to be demonstrably faster than fixed or water ballast boats, and have a very good track record in total. A few problem with the VOR boats are hardly the indictment that you are trying to make it.


I seem to recall a few problems with canting keels on a couple VG boats, too.



Sure, there have been one or two problems on the VG, and in the last AA Bernard had serious problems with his lever arm. But considering how many miles these boats have sailed, and for how long now, there actually have not been very many problems. As a class, canting keel problems are one of the less pesky (albeit more catastrophic)

#17 TeamFugu

TeamFugu

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,084 posts
  • Location:SLC, UT
  • Interests:Sailing skiffs, racing, rigging, et al.

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:50 PM

I think that one of the problems with these things in the VOR is that flying off a wave at 20+ kts and landing on the canted fin is ripping the rams from their moorings. I realize that WO and AR have huge canting fins but I sure would feel better if there were some manual override in case the engine craps out for any reason. It may be slow but at least something could be done if there were a mishap.

I sometimes wonder if they could build foils that act like ailerons on a plane. If they could, it would reduce the amount of weight even more. This could help because that bulb could be smaller and would have less leverage agains the moorings as well as you could make the foil a little more flexible to dampen the shock of falling off a wave.

#18 boyscout

boyscout

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 349 posts

Posted 28 December 2005 - 11:48 PM

Most of the boast have a system in place so that if the hydraulics fail the crew can grind the keel to center. It takes a long time but they can do it. Most of the Keel issues have been with under spec. pistions. If the pistions attached to the keel snap then you can't even grind the keel back in place.
And the last word on the street was that pirates had a bad seal for the keel wich made the keel box fill with water and over pressureise the box, and movie star may have hit a sunken container.

#19 Monkey

Monkey

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,324 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 12:21 AM

It might just be my opinion, but my logic behind why canting keels have such a bad reputation as being dangerous and prone to fail is only because they're the hot new toy on race boats. Every time a canting keel fails, it's going to get publicity. This is no different than the fact that every time a plane crashes it makes the front page of the paper. Everyone knows that planes are safer than cars, but it still makes sensational news. Then people start ranting and raving about how dangerous planes are and how we need all new safety rules, inspections, etc. It's the same for canting keels. I'm not going to say they're reliable just yet (in the world of sailing, these things are brand spanking new prototypes compared to existing keel concepts), but they're not the big evil monster that the sailing world is playing them up to be. They just make for an easy target. Oats probably did have keel problems coming into Hobart, but kept it quiet because they didn't want to set off a media frenzy based on the exact direction this thread is headed. Was the inability to cant the keel properly catastrophic or even dangerous to them? Nope. They just reduced sail and dealt with it. Even if it happened out in the straits, they could have just carried the current jibe 'til they sorted it out. Canting keels will get safer and more reliable with every new generation of race boat, but even the current breed are still manageable.

#20 B30

B30

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Location:NYC

Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:05 AM

WHAT IS WITH EVERYONE DUMPING ON CANTING KEELS. IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER GEAR FAILURES (I.E. RUDDERS, RIGGING, MASTS AND ELECTRONICS) COMPARED TO CANTING KEELS THE RATIO WOULD BE 10 TO 1. THE MODERN MAXIS ARE BUILT TO MINIMUM SPECS WITH AS MUCH HORSE POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO AS POSSIBLE, FOR LINE HONORS AND NOT MUCH ELSE. THE VENDEE GLOBE, AROUND ALONE AND VOR HAVE EXCELLENT RECORDS AS FAR AS BREAKAGES AND STILL FINISHING. CANTING KEELS ARE THE WAY TO GO FOR OCEAN RACING AND WILL BE AROUND FOR ALONG TIME. QUIT TRYING TO SKIMP ON THE SPECS AND BUILD THE SYSTEM TO DO THE JOB.



BASIL EXPOSITION
The shouting is a temporary side-
effect of the unfreezing process.

AUSTIN
Yes, I'm having trouble
controlling (shouting)
THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!

#21 vegavexity

vegavexity

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 191 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:29 AM

these darn canting keels are a fad.... just like that there internet....

#22 f off

f off

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 667 posts
  • Location:annap

Posted 29 December 2005 - 02:15 AM

Canters are cool form a lot of perspectives
Fact is, from a reliability perspective, the more complex a system is the less reliable it will be. Therefore canters will always be less reliable than their fixed keel counterparts period.
The question then becomes is how long will it be before the control mechanism design becomes "reliable enough" for ocean racing. Clearly up to now the systems appear to be under-designed. Especially if one considers the number of failures as a percentage of the total population. I think that they will get there eventually but it would appear to me that the designers do not yet fully understand the dynamic loads that are imparted to these devices in heavy weather.
Once they have that figured out it should be easy to develop the appropriate control mechanism. Once that is done I for one cannot wait for the technology to trickle down to us mere mortals. Provided they dont make be run the iron donkey to do it.
VM


My totally uneducated and gut guess is that the state of the art boats are trying to keep the weight of the canting systems down and therefor drasticallly underbuilding/underengineering the systems. And that is why we are seeing the failures. That and the newness of hte systems probably add to the unreliability.

Another factor is that the only boats using the canting keel are the really "go fast" boats. And they typically experience a huge amount of failures based on the way they push the boats.

Kind of the nature of the beast in my op.

FO

#23 Wash

Wash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,254 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, CA

Posted 29 December 2005 - 02:23 AM

swinging keel? or is it really the boat rocking on top of a keel pointing straight down when these things fail?

#24 vsecret

vsecret

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 673 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 02:36 AM

Nroose has a point.. it kind of ruins the zen when you start cranking up a diesel to get the max. performance out of a sailboat..

Cool technology though...

#25 punter

punter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,473 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:23 AM

As to your comments about Wild Oats keel, I had the same thoughts. The keel wasn't visible in the TV footage taken from a helicopter as they sailed up the Derwent, and the boat was responding to wind gusts (with all the crew on the rail) far more than one would expect with only a small (100% of foretriangle) headsail. In all other TV footage from the air, the canting keels are very obvious.



The SMH in Australia had a pic (link below) of Wild Oats closing into the finish and the keel is canted.

http://www.smh.com.a...5732641705.html

#26 Wash

Wash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,254 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, CA

Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:56 AM

I love the retro move to hanks on all the headsails-- understand the reasoning---- On these types of boats it is either multiple furlers or hanks--

#27 I'moutahere

I'moutahere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,810 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 05:16 AM


As to your comments about Wild Oats keel, I had the same thoughts. The keel wasn't visible in the TV footage taken from a helicopter as they sailed up the Derwent, and the boat was responding to wind gusts (with all the crew on the rail) far more than one would expect with only a small (100% of foretriangle) headsail. In all other TV footage from the air, the canting keels are very obvious.



The SMH in Australia had a pic (link below) of Wild Oats closing into the finish and the keel is canted.

http://www.smh.com.a...5732641705.html

The SMH photo has the boat on starboard tack. keel canted. all crew on the rail and powered up. In the live TV coverage approaching the finish on port tack, the keel was not visible. The port side was in the early morning shadow though. From memory (I've been there 15 times) the Derwent is a pretty clean river so I'm wondering if the keel couldn't be canted to port. Maybe someone can produce a photo of the boat on port tack, or maybe recorded the finish.

#28 I'moutahere

I'moutahere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,810 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 05:33 AM

In the picture in the link she does look overpowered and you can see the keel at full cant. In the TV coverage of the finish and in photos she is sailing barely heeled over at around 14 knots. She would be heeled more and sailing slower if her keel was centered. If the keel was on the wrong side, as some have suggested, she would have been heeled at about 45+ degrees and going sideways as well as forward.
Dont you think they would have told someone by now if they had had keel problems?


You are probably right. I imagine they would have said something, though you never know. Approaching Battery Point (the finish) you are in lighter airs due to surrounding hills & the city. Interesting though that they are now not sending the boat back to Sydney for the Pittwater to Coffs race. The delivery crew were in Hobart we are told, and I'm sure the delivery sails would be also. TV coverage also showed the exhaust working so the engine was running.

#29 Sparky

Sparky

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,223 posts
  • Location:Greater downtown Tasmania

Posted 29 December 2005 - 06:08 AM

You are probably right. I imagine they would have said something, though you never know. Approaching Battery Point (the finish) you are in lighter airs due to surrounding hills & the city. Interesting though that they are now not sending the boat back to Sydney for the Pittwater to Coffs race. The delivery crew were in Hobart we are told, and I'm sure the delivery sails would be also. TV coverage also showed the exhaust working so the engine was running.


On the contrary there are often big 'bullets' of wind that run down the valleys and into the derwent, particularly wth westerly and northwesterly winds. Boats finishing today did it very tough from the John Garrow light up to Battery Point, with several near round ups while I was watching, some within a stones throw of the line. Peak wind at Droughty point today has been 45 knots and the average is about 20-30.

Hollywood Blvd and Secret Mens business are docked next to each other at Kings pier marina and at one point a bullet hit there (smack in the middle of the city) that caused them to lean in toward each other - spreaders got pretty close to each other, I thought they might hit and tangle. (they didn't)

#30 merlin89

merlin89

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 429 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 29 December 2005 - 06:30 AM

I think that one of the problems with these things in the VOR is that flying off a wave at 20+ kts and landing on the canted fin is ripping the rams from their moorings. I realize that WO and AR have huge canting fins but I sure would feel better if there were some manual override in case the engine craps out for any reason. It may be slow but at least something could be done if there were a mishap.

I sometimes wonder if they could build foils that act like ailerons on a plane. If they could, it would reduce the amount of weight even more. This could help because that bulb could be smaller and would have less leverage agains the moorings as well as you could make the foil a little more flexible to dampen the shock of falling off a wave.

I was thinking that myself, just the thing with ailerons is they increase drag. On planes they only deflect them to turn, whereas on a boat you would always have it deflected to reduce heel. Are you talking of an aileron on the end of a swinging keel or a wing to leeward? I thought having a swingkeel where the lower half pivots would be better than an aileron because the water would flow more smoothly over the whole of the fin. Vortices would be generated at the joint where the aileron meets the upper half of the fin. you could jack another aero industry trick by putting a triangular plate perpendicular to the foils at the joint. This would have the same effect as a winglet, preventing the high pressure flow going throug the little gap to the low zone and creating a vortex. The keel bulb would be the winglet on the other end. Now, if you think of the deflection relative to the lever arm, the aileron becomes inefficient at its extremities. On a propeller blade that rotates around a central axis, the outside of the properrler has to travel a further distance per revolution while the bit right next to the spinner has to go only a fraction of the distance. In order to bite through the same distance of air per revolution, the inside has a coarse pitch while the outside has a finer one. Now, The aileron keel is attempting the same feat, but if you have a constant pitch throughout the whole keel blade, the middle bites nicely, the outside bites too much, and the inside too little. the angle of attack at the outside and inside become inefficient and fight one another, creating more drag. The solution would be to make a propeller blade shaped keel blade. Now, imagine you just tacked and swing your keel over. Well, now your propeller blade keel would have to reoptimize itself (the inside closest to the hull rotates the most, further out it becomes less and lees to maintain correct AoA). The only real way to reoptimize the keel would be to have it flexible about it's y-axis while keeping it stiff along the x and z. Good luck engineering that, tell me if you succeed. The easy answer would be to have 10-15 aileron segments that all rotate by different angles, but then you get back to the vortices and the winglets.... It could concievably work, because the little vortex fences wouldn't have to be too big, the delta in deflection angle from one segment to the next is not that great.

I reckon the above is why most yacht designers don't do this. If some guys still find the canting keels unreliable, suggest this to them....

#31 TD Floater

TD Floater

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Location:Canberra ACT, Australia

Posted 29 December 2005 - 08:59 AM

Interesting though that they are now not sending the boat back to Sydney for the Pittwater to Coffs race. The delivery crew were in Hobart we are told, and I'm sure the delivery sails would be also. TV coverage also showed the exhaust working so the engine was running.



From raff (hope you don't mind) in another thread:

"Complete load of crap. They had a no.1 heavy up and it was windy... there are pics where you can see the keel fully canted.
The Main is close to a write off, ripped the batten out of the sail, ripped the sail then flogged badly. Also ripped the vang off the mast and destroyed a few stanchions.."

Sort of also explains why they didn't put spare battens in as someone mentioned. Typical too in that race, its not always a matter of "just" replacing battens.

#32 oldsailor

oldsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Sydney Australia
  • Interests:Keeping out of trouble --(especially SWMBO)

Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:55 AM

I think that one of the problems with these things in the VOR is that flying off a wave at 20+ kts and landing on the canted fin is ripping the rams from their moorings. I realize that WO and AR have huge canting fins but I sure would feel better if there were some manual override in case the engine craps out for any reason. It may be slow but at least something could be done if there were a mishap.

I sometimes wonder if they could build foils that act like ailerons on a plane. If they could, it would reduce the amount of weight even more. This could help because that bulb could be smaller and would have less leverage agains the moorings as well as you could make the foil a little more flexible to dampen the shock of falling off a wave.


Have you not heard of CBTF.?? (Canting Ballast Twin Foil)

Works----but costs a motza in licencing fees. The owners of the patent are VERY sensitive to any real or imagined patent infringers !!!!
:rolleyes:

#33 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,649 posts

Posted 29 December 2005 - 12:48 PM

Thanks for all the good info boys- we've added to the front page.

#34 AttitudeAdjuster

AttitudeAdjuster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Location:London & Solent
  • Interests:Finn Sailing<br />Dinghy Sailing in general especially RS700 &amp; K6 (possible future boats)<br />Leadmining in the Solent: Mumm 30, Prima 38, J-39, Farr 45

Posted 29 December 2005 - 09:56 PM

Apologies as:
1) Slightly off thread
2) Bound to have been done before

(but I bet I'm not the only one who doesn't know)

Why do the 30m canters (going in a straight line) need to constantly run their engines
(to adjust the Keel angle presumably) or have I missed something.

I would have thought that - execpt in the light maybe - they would crank them over to the max and forget . . . .

#35 Foredeck Shuffle

Foredeck Shuffle

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,736 posts
  • Interests:.

Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:25 PM

TV coverage also showed the exhaust working so the engine was running.

Classic.

#36 TD Floater

TD Floater

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Location:Canberra ACT, Australia

Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:58 PM

Apologies as:
1) Slightly off thread
2) Bound to have been done before

(but I bet I'm not the only one who doesn't know)

Why do the 30m canters (going in a straight line) need to constantly run their engines
(to adjust the Keel angle presumably) or have I missed something.

I would have thought that - execpt in the light maybe - they would crank them over to the max and forget . . . .



I think they are continually adjusting keel and sails via the powered winches. Engines don't usally like being turned on and off regularly.

#37 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,218 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 29 December 2005 - 11:44 PM

yeah like that US MACK 18-wheeler truckie that hasn't turned his truck off since 2002, a DIESEL brotherhood thingy huh

these big toys ! 98 footer owners are no different than our pumpkin haulin' good ol' boy ? A big cloud of black smoke when they gittin serious-like?
Posted Image1 Bubba 2 Nev 3 Bob 4 Grant?

#38 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,218 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 30 December 2005 - 12:10 AM

Question, how much diesel would Oats/Alfa have to carry to do a leg WORTHY of a super boat ?

lets say the Cape Town to Melbourne leg of the Volvo next week or whenever

how much for trans-atlantic ? or Hobart " 3 lts (.75 gallon) per hour ?

are they turboed for lightness, or belt driven supercharged? I noticed there is a console on the maxi for the engineer/throttleman/keeltacker dude, much like a class1 Offshore powerboat.

#39 judge

judge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 571 posts
  • Location:South Eastern Australia

Posted 30 December 2005 - 12:23 AM

Although I hate the thought of running the diesel all the time to power keel, winches etc. you can't argue that canting keels are the way of the future for race boats, and like all tech. advances they will become more reliable and eventually filter down to production boats.

My idea on a smaller boat might be to go for an electric propulsion motor, [Asmo, Krautler up to about 30hp @48volts] and run a fully silenced on demand genset. Much quieter, less fuel use, and plenty of stored power for all the other toys you want on a civilised yacht.

BTW the short race across Bass Strait from Melbourne to Launceston was won [LH] by Just A Minor Hick Up, a 40 foot Robert Hick designed and built canting keeler. Apparently no problems there. :)

#40 merlin89

merlin89

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 429 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 30 December 2005 - 03:05 AM


I think that one of the problems with these things in the VOR is that flying off a wave at 20+ kts and landing on the canted fin is ripping the rams from their moorings. I realize that WO and AR have huge canting fins but I sure would feel better if there were some manual override in case the engine craps out for any reason. It may be slow but at least something could be done if there were a mishap.

I sometimes wonder if they could build foils that act like ailerons on a plane. If they could, it would reduce the amount of weight even more. This could help because that bulb could be smaller and would have less leverage agains the moorings as well as you could make the foil a little more flexible to dampen the shock of falling off a wave.


Have you not heard of CBTF.?? (Canting Ballast Twin Foil)

Works----but costs a motza in licencing fees. The owners of the patent are VERY sensitive to any real or imagined patent infringers !!!!
:rolleyes:

I think he has heard of CBTF and was suggesting that the keel be canted as well as having an aileron.

#41 merlin89

merlin89

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 429 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 30 December 2005 - 03:08 AM

Apologies as:
1) Slightly off thread
2) Bound to have been done before

(but I bet I'm not the only one who doesn't know)

Why do the 30m canters (going in a straight line) need to constantly run their engines
(to adjust the Keel angle presumably) or have I missed something.

I would have thought that - execpt in the light maybe - they would crank them over to the max and forget . . . .

In a straight line with everything going fine you might be able to turn your engine off. I understand the hydraulic winches, I for one don't want to try grinding on that big a sail, don't know about everyone else.

#42 dilligaf

dilligaf

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 104 posts

Posted 31 December 2005 - 02:37 AM

I thought that it was against the rules of sailing to have a powered winch. I thought that the hydraulic winches for the boats have the power derived from the coffee grinders.

My only issue with the canting keels are that they are running engines to power the hydraulics for the keels.... I think that the rules against power should extend to canting keels as well.

I hate any noise on the race course that will get in the way of my stereo.

#43 GybeSet®

GybeSet®

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,218 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 31 December 2005 - 02:43 AM

Although I hate the thought of running the diesel all the time to power keel, winches etc. you can't argue that canting keels are the way of the future for race boats, and like all tech. advances they will become more reliable and eventually filter down to production boats.
My idea on a smaller boat might be to go for an electric propulsion motor, [Asmo, Krautler up to about 30hp @48volts] and run a fully silenced on demand genset. Much quieter, less fuel use, and plenty of stored power for all the other toys you want on a civilised yacht. BTW the short race across Bass Strait from Melbourne to Launceston was won [LH] by Just A Minor Hick Up, a 40 foot Robert Hick designed and built canting keeler. Apparently no problems there. :)

Just a minor,
how is its canting mechanism worked ??

when it beats a farr40od and Wedgetail i'll be more interested

got a URL for this remarkable genset ?

#44 I'moutahere

I'moutahere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,810 posts

Posted 31 December 2005 - 03:07 AM

I thought that it was against the rules of sailing to have a powered winch. I thought that the hydraulic winches for the boats have the power derived from the coffee grinders.

My only issue with the canting keels are that they are running engines to power the hydraulics for the keels.... I think that the rules against power should extend to canting keels as well.

I hate any noise on the race course that will get in the way of my stereo.


The NOR or Sailing Instructions for the S/H stated that RRS 52 did not aplpy for the race.
RRS52 Manual Power, "A boat's standing rigging, running rigging, spars and MOVABLE HULL APPENDAGES shall be adjusted and operated only by manual power"
If RRS 52 had not been removed for the race, the "motor sailers" may not have been able to compete. I do not know if any have a manual means of canting their keels.

#45 Wash

Wash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,254 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, CA

Posted 31 December 2005 - 04:09 AM

Bottom Line there is an accepted set of Intl. racing rules to follow-- If you have enough $, political clout and inside pull you can build a boat in circumvention of the accepted rules because the race organizers you have influence over will conveniently waive certain rules to allow your heretofore illegal boat to enter.

The boats that are allowed in under the exceptions are not in anyway, shape or form a fair test with the rest of the fleet that were built under the accepted rules. Therefore the results of any competition under this set of circumstances is suspect at best.

#46 I'moutahere

I'moutahere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,810 posts

Posted 31 December 2005 - 04:16 AM

Bottom Line there is an accepted set of Intl. racing rules to follow-- If you have enough $, political clout and inside pull you can build a boat in circumvention of the accepted rules because the race organizers you have influence over will conveniently waive certain rules to allow your heretofore illegal boat to enter.

The boats that are allowed in under the exceptions are not in anyway, shape or form a fair test with the rest of the fleet that were built under the accepted rules. Therefore the results of any competition under this set of circumstances is suspect at best.


At risk of upsetting some people who know me .... you hit the nail fair and square on the head!!!

#47 shoot

shoot

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 135 posts

Posted 31 December 2005 - 07:09 AM



Are these things pinned when they're not actually being swung? Or is the swinging mechanism loaded the whole time? I'm sure this has been covered, but I've been sniffing glue before class again... :rolleyes:


The new gerneration systems are able to lock the keel in the center position, for safety issues. However, if there is a masive failer in the canting system. How do you get the keel to stop swinging so you can lock it into place. Granted the keel will be working against the friction of the rams, but still a keel that heavy will still swing from side to side, & slowly tear the boat apart. Right??????



Canting keels are the future. Get over it.



Well said!

#48 olaf hart

olaf hart

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts
  • Location:D'Entrecasteaux Channel

Posted 31 December 2005 - 08:34 AM

The real issue here is the decision by the CYCA to suspend rule 52 for the S2H race. Who did they consult? Did the other entrants in the race have any say in the decision? Did the committee or its members receive any consideration for suspending the rule?
IMHO any club which suspends racing rules in the future should make the decision subject to appeal by a vote of the race entrants, so a majority (or maybe two thirds) of the entrants have to agree to the rule suspension.
If the CYCA wants to add another class to the race, fine. Just dont tilt the table for a few entrants without a representative vote.

#49 TD Floater

TD Floater

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Location:Canberra ACT, Australia

Posted 31 December 2005 - 10:41 AM

Apparently the other entrants don't care, but they did sail!

Umm, whos race is it?

#50 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 31 December 2005 - 06:22 PM

The real issue here is the decision by the CYCA to suspend rule 52 for the S2H race. Who did they consult? Did the other entrants in the race have any say in the decision? Did the committee or its members receive any consideration for suspending the rule?

Er......

No, you know what? I really can't be bothered.

#51 TD Floater

TD Floater

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Location:Canberra ACT, Australia

Posted 31 December 2005 - 11:04 PM

I call it well said.

How did you go in Hobart?

#52 oldsailor

oldsailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 602 posts
  • Location:Sydney Australia
  • Interests:Keeping out of trouble --(especially SWMBO)

Posted 01 January 2006 - 01:48 PM

Quote:- nroose Post # 25 "Yes, canting keels are more complex than fixed keels.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Try building 2 boats that are the same speed. Give one a canting keel. it will have less ballast, so it will need less sail area, and less strength everywhere, which will make it lighter, so it can have even less sail area, etc. Once you optimize both boats to their design and required speed, I think you will have a cheaper, more reliable boat in the canter, because you will need less weight in the keel, and have, essentially, less boat." Quote.

Whats this illogical crap.??? Quote:-"Give one a canting keel, it will have less ballast."

Who said so ??? I should think, given the killer instinct of the guys ordering the designers to come up with a race winning boat, would use the biggest canting ballast available so that the new boat could handle MORE sail area and so go faster , that is of course if the structural design can be worked out so that the boat will be able to complete the race before falling apart on the finish line.

I think the designer of WO should be congratulated . She didn't start to fall apart until almost within sight of the finish line.

ROTFLMAO.

#53 FiNn

FiNn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 93 posts
  • Location:Scandinavia

Posted 01 January 2006 - 03:13 PM


WHAT IS WITH EVERYONE DUMPING ON CANTING KEELS. IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER GEAR FAILURES (I.E. RUDDERS, RIGGING, MASTS AND ELECTRONICS) COMPARED TO CANTING KEELS THE RATIO WOULD BE 10 TO 1. THE MODERN MAXIS ARE BUILT TO MINIMUM SPECS WITH AS MUCH HORSE POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO AS POSSIBLE, FOR LINE HONORS AND NOT MUCH ELSE. THE VENDEE GLOBE, AROUND ALONE AND VOR HAVE EXCELLENT RECORDS AS FAR AS BREAKAGES AND STILL FINISHING. CANTING KEELS ARE THE WAY TO GO FOR OCEAN RACING AND WILL BE AROUND FOR ALONG TIME. QUIT TRYING TO SKIMP ON THE SPECS AND BUILD THE SYSTEM TO DO THE JOB.



BASIL EXPOSITION
The shouting is a temporary side-
effect of the unfreezing process.

AUSTIN
Yes, I'm having trouble
controlling (shouting)
THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!


Maybe it's just the missing caps-lock... :D

#54 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 01 January 2006 - 05:46 PM



The real issue here is the decision by the CYCA to suspend rule 52 for the S2H race. Who did they consult? Did the other entrants in the race have any say in the decision? Did the committee or its members receive any consideration for suspending the rule?

Er......

No, you know what? I really can't be bothered.

you call that a contribution

My point is, this was an IRC class, sailed under IRC rules, no? IRC rule 27.3 modifies RRS51 & 52 for the allowance of movable ballast. IRC rule 11.1 does not allow rule 27.3 to be modified.

That is the last time I'm going to say it, so the next person who has not read the relevant rules and jumps to conclusions will not get even a non-contribution from me.

Now please do all continue with your conspiracy theories because they do keep me amused if nothing else!

#55 tinga

tinga

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 426 posts

Posted 02 January 2006 - 02:33 AM




The real issue here is the decision by the CYCA to suspend rule 52 for the S2H race. Who did they consult? Did the other entrants in the race have any say in the decision? Did the committee or its members receive any consideration for suspending the rule?

Er......

No, you know what? I really can't be bothered.

you call that a contribution

My point is, this was an IRC class, sailed under IRC rules, no? IRC rule 27.3 modifies RRS51 & 52 for the allowance of movable ballast. IRC rule 11.1 does not allow rule 27.3 to be modified.

That is the last time I'm going to say it, so the next person who has not read the relevant rules and jumps to conclusions will not get even a non-contribution from me.

Now please do all continue with your conspiracy theories because they do keep me amused if nothing else!


Read the relevent rules??? are you mad? Much better to invent drivel and post it here as fact.

#56 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:36 AM

Read the relevent rules??? are you mad? Much better to invent drivel and post it here as fact.


Shit yeah, sorry sometimes I forget where I am ;)

#57 Phil

Phil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,027 posts
  • Location:SYDNEY AUSTRALIA

Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:53 AM

By the way Oats was sitting upright whilst tied to the wharf in Hobart,only the vang seemed stuffed.

#58 AttitudeAdjuster

AttitudeAdjuster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Location:London &amp; Solent
  • Interests:Finn Sailing<br />Dinghy Sailing in general especially RS700 &amp; K6 (possible future boats)<br />Leadmining in the Solent: Mumm 30, Prima 38, J-39, Farr 45

Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:15 AM

What I haven't satisfied myself about yet is this:

If MC4 and Maximus can get across the Atlantic - very quickly - using only manual power (at least for the winches?) then why can't WO and AR do the same for the SH?

#59 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 02 January 2006 - 05:56 PM

Does anyone know where I can find a really hard wall to go and bang my head against? 5 bloody posts later and someone else says that CYCA "changed the rules". THEY DIDN'T!!!

*£$(*&£)(*@$£(*&

#60 AttitudeAdjuster

AttitudeAdjuster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts
  • Location:London &amp; Solent
  • Interests:Finn Sailing<br />Dinghy Sailing in general especially RS700 &amp; K6 (possible future boats)<br />Leadmining in the Solent: Mumm 30, Prima 38, J-39, Farr 45

Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:18 AM

For US51208:

I guess you are agreeing with my gripe - it's not that you can't design/build/race a modern Super Maxi with Manual winches - it's simply for the S2H you can gain a competitive advantage by having electric winches.

Doesn't seem fair - yes I know, no-one said it was etc etc

#61 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:41 AM

Does anyone know where I can find a really hard wall to go and bang my head against? 5 bloody posts later and someone else says that CYCA "changed the rules". THEY DIDN'T!!!

*£$(*&£)(*@$£(*&

See my soberer comments in the Move Maxis to development IRC class thread!

#62 wraith

wraith

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,232 posts

Posted 03 January 2006 - 12:22 PM

Because the rules were not changed for MC4 and Maximus. They were told that they had better have manual winches or their record would not be ratified. Now, back in AUS, the CYCA had changed the rules for the S2H, and Skandia had raced to Hobart using electric winches. If you were building a big boat for the main purpose of line honours in the S2H and you had the option to outfit it with electric winches versus 4 or 5 carbon pedestals plus the neccasary crew to operate the pedestals, which one would you do?

As I see it they only changed the rules for the NON IRC classes.

IRC already allows powered systems, and denies organisers the right to disallow them.

#63 JenBee

JenBee

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,195 posts
  • Interests:Classic motorsport, Dogs

Posted 03 January 2006 - 12:56 PM


Because the rules were not changed for MC4 and Maximus. They were told that they had better have manual winches or their record would not be ratified. Now, back in AUS, the CYCA had changed the rules for the S2H, and Skandia had raced to Hobart using electric winches. If you were building a big boat for the main purpose of line honours in the S2H and you had the option to outfit it with electric winches versus 4 or 5 carbon pedestals plus the neccasary crew to operate the pedestals, which one would you do?

As I see it they only changed the rules for the NON IRC classes.

IRC already allows powered systems, and denies organisers the right to disallow them.

See my comments in the Move Maxis to development IRC class thread regarding this.

#64 K38BOB

K38BOB

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,522 posts
  • Location:Bay Area

Posted 13 January 2006 - 11:57 PM

Its amazing what people will do to a monohull to attempt multihull performance-to avoid becoming a multihuller
:-)

Rumor has it that the keel canting system broke & the keel was jammed to port. Who know's right? But all rumor's aside, it's very clear that these keels DON'T work. The VOR boats are riddled with issues regarding this system. The benifit's are huge when everything is working, but what's going to happen in the southern ocean leg's. The loads are massive on these system's. Hope for the best.



#65 1sailor

1sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,572 posts
  • Location:a small toilet bowl where I sail Lasers
  • Interests:'SuperFly' Audi / Melges 20

Posted 14 January 2006 - 06:40 PM

Not on the keel topic but did anyone see the pic of Bob Oately in Seahorse this month ?

He looks like a worn-out rockstar not the stereotypical "wealthy yachtsman" anybody got the story on this cat ?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users