2093 replies to this topic

[Phil]

The drowning of the A10 skipper had nothing to do with the stability of the boat.

I will however not go any further in to it as he was Sportscars best mate and a fellow we MHYC sailors had raced against on several occasions.

[Heaven can wait]

The drowning of the A10 skipper had nothing to do with the stability of the boat.

I will however not go any further in to it as he was Sportscars best mate and a fellow we MHYC sailors had raced against on several occasions.

Very sad Phil, very sad indeed, it would appear that the inevitable finger pointing has commenced which I'm sure is playing on the minds of everyone down South during this tragic time.

Sincerest wishes to family and friends unfortunately involved, it is tragic.

[Turkey Slapper]

Bit of a NEWSFLASH here boys and girls not sure if it good or bad yet.

- YA Cat 5 Certificate found to be ambiguous in it's Stability request.

Rule 3.01.1 Yachts must be self righting and comply with stability requirements
.
Rule 3.01.2 Yachts not complying with 3.01.1 must have bouyancy.

(Yachts not complying with either don't worry about it apparently)

Anyway it looks like we've stumbled across an anomily that has sent the powers that be off to reconsider.

The bit that interests me is the HSF factor, which has been the subject of much conjecture is to be modified.

Instead of either lifting the keel or pulling the boat down via the hounds, an abbreviated rule is being sought that TS's, can lift their keels up to the fully up position, then pulling down on the spinnaker or headsail halyard till then boat is approximately 50 degrees.

If once the halyard is released, the boat returns to upright, you pass, if your boat keeps going you fail unless you have adequate buoyancy.

This is what is being thrashed around at moment, which is also including one of Australia's Premier yacht designers.

Second topic that was discussed was the amount of trouble Yachting Victoria finds itself in at the moment following 4 deaths recently.

Apparently Yachting Victoria in their efforts moreso hast to grant dispensation to various Classes, have indirectly resulted in the deaths of 4 sailors.

I guess stand by and watch the shite hit the fan on that one, Adams 10 sailors apparently.

Mmmmm....

That would be great as even the Orphan which had no ballast at all (the keel actually floated) Would pass the 50 degree pull down with flying colours as would just about every boat. Low freeboard boats like the UFO and boatspeed might find it hard as the keel would be so far above the gunwale when leant over it would help pull it down mabe?

[GybeSet®]

and by the rule thats ok cos of the bouyancy.

I'm thinking that Lead deficient (small bulb) boats like the Stealth 7, Egan6, Knuckle 6 , may all float as the 'foam core' +ive bouyancy may support the lead ! This would suffice as 'bouyancy'

Other 'floaters' may be Margy 'L' and ts16's ?? So What (originally had small bulb, still?), Vivace ? Phuket's add-on wings are air-tanks.

Thing is race organisers would like/need evidence of that !!

Marg L 'floating evidence' I have seen in photographs and I can vouch for the Boatspeed. Apart from air tanks it was vacuumed down hard on extra thick core, 18mm I think.

[ntman]

surely pulling a boat over to 50 is a bit irrelevant as a test of stability. on an inshore race with sportsboats IMHO most stability problems occur during a broach (mostly with kite). I have seen (and been on ) boats broaching at angles a lot greater than 50 degrees (some more like 90). I don't think any stability test or requirement needs to be as radical as for offshore. The minimum angle of vanishing stability requirements for offshore is at least partially to deal with stability problems caused by large waves. ie not such a big problem with SBs. If the goal is to increase safety then a 50 degree pull down IMHO is a bit of a cop out. Surely we either cope with potentially unstable boats though bouyancy, pfds waivers etc or we institute a proper test of stability.
sorry to rant but I have seen the results of TS raced as if they were self righting when in fact they weren't. I also think that an arbitrary half arsed test used as a measure of "safety" could land associations and clubs in more legal hot water if ever there is a life lost due to a stability problem. What I reallly want is for any boat to be able to race if it can prove that the boat and its crew are prepared and equipped to look after themselves.

[GybeSet®]

agree "arbitary test = more liabilty for stakeholder of test"

agree " bouyancy - PFD's "

necessary entrant/owner sign-off on event's liability, end of story

[Heaven can wait]

Ntman, the 50% was used as speculation not what could be expected, however the HSF ruling was bought in to accertain the stability of older clunkers and is not as easily applied to todays Ultra-light SB's.

Stealthy was thrown into the mix as it is a pretty good example of a limited number of boats produced, and there are a lot of 1 - 2 - 3 offs around the place.

The HSF testing isn't fair IMHO because the same is not required for larger lead bellies. I wouldn't expect a Sydney 38 to line up for this sort of test, would you.

Anyway the purpose of the discussion was to find very basic level ground, and work toward a solution that is practical, feesable and useful to all parties concerned.

By rights any boats crew should be able to pull a Sportsboat down via Halyards to get the mast parallel with the water, that is with the keel fully retracted.

If the halyard is released and the boat rights it self, it is self righting, if the boat tends to want to keep going then not, and then buoyancy becomes the issue.

Our Rule makers and Yes these are the people discussing this are aware that the HSF isn't fair, and that's why discussions are continuing about this ruling.

I appreciate that if a "Keel up" test was acceptable, then owners would more readily comply and compete in more races. Any RC in the land can then Police the grounds on which the boat was entered, if there is just cause.

As much as to get the skipper to sign off on the Events Liabiltiy is straight forward, it can be questionable in a court of Law.

[Turkey Slapper]

I dont agree with wearing pfd's all the time, in QLD its bloody hot when your racing in under 15 knots and killer in a drifter or downwind. Some clubs fly a flag at around 15 knots and you have to wear them then which is a great rule. I encourage my crew to wear them when the breese starts to build anyway as its easier to pull someone out of the water if they accidently do fall in when they are floating higher.

[GybeSet®]

the start boat flag "put on PFD's" is written in the YA 'blue book'

so all good, not needed in 10 knts but maybe they should be 'at arm's reach' ? not stuffed downstairs ?

[ntman]

I know of a few boats that get less stable as they go over further. if we recognise that this can happen but don't know where this can occur then the 50 degree test may not be accurate. if that doesn't make sense i guess what I am trying to say is that the 50 degree, keel up test may not be relevant across a wide range of designs. I am no naval architect or engineer but i would think that an accurate test of righting ability would need to have ballast etc in the "sailing configuration" and the test would need to be to a level that could feasibly occur while sailing . In my humble opinion I would think that more like 90 degrees haul down with ballast in its correct position is a more relevant test.
nt

[Heaven can wait]

I know of a few boats that get less stable as they go over further. if we recognise that this can happen but don't know where this can occur then the 50 degree test may not be accurate. if that doesn't make sense i guess what I am trying to say is that the 50 degree, keel up test may not be relevant across a wide range of designs. I am no naval architect or engineer but i would think that an accurate test of righting ability would need to have ballast etc in the "sailing configuration" and the test would need to be to a level that could feasibly occur while sailing . In my humble opinion I would think that more like 90 degrees haul down with ballast in its correct position is a more relevant test.
nt

Nt, that's about where the HSF testing is at now, and the Stability is worked from Hound Height righting moment, that's where a lot of owners are coming unstuck with it, they don't want to stick weights or load the boat from one place on the mast, during a knockdown load is shared along the rig.

If a boat rights itself, doesn't matter how slow with the keel in the up position, it will be more stable in the down position. Likewise a boat that self rights quickly with the keel fully up is going to be moreso self righting with it down, the same test with the keel fully down is only going to tell you the same thing.

Boats that get more unstable as they are pulled to the horizontal sound like they should have sufficient buoyancy IMHO and they would still comply with the rule anyway.

The discussion was merely focussed on taking the angst and the risk of potential cost of mast brakeages for the ownerout of the equation.

Personally I can't see why the powers that be can't do the IMS equivelent, and get TS's to comply to down rated SSS numbers.

What you have to appreciate Nt is I've got to consider the HSF issue from both sides.

[ntman]

you are probably right Naval Architects design most boats these days (and some like Al have access to naval architects) How hard is it to calculate stability numbers?

[SPORTSCAR]

you are probably right Naval Architects design most boats these days (and some like Al have access to naval architects) How hard is it to calculate stability numbers?

I beg to differ on this. There is a vast difference between "boat designers" and naval architects. Anyone can hang up a shingle and call himself a boat designer and many have done so including some very well known names. They may charge shitloads for designing boats but they are NOT necessarily naval architects with those qualifications and experience. Caveat Emptor!

[Heaven can wait]

you are probably right Naval Architects design most boats these days (and some like Al have access to naval architects) How hard is it to calculate stability numbers?

I beg to differ on this. There is a vast difference between "boat designers" and naval architects. Anyone can hang up a shingle and call himself a boat designer and many have done so including some very well known names. They may charge shitloads for designing boats but they are NOT necessarily naval architects with those qualifications and experience. Caveat Emptor!

Bit like Steve Thompson, he designs great boats, but he has an Engineering background.

How are going there SPORTSCAR, been thinking about you?

[Scarecrow]

you are probably right Naval Architects design most boats these days (and some like Al have access to naval architects) How hard is it to calculate stability numbers?

I beg to differ on this. There is a vast difference between "boat designers" and naval architects. Anyone can hang up a shingle and call himself a boat designer and many have done so including some very well known names. They may charge shitloads for designing boats but they are NOT necessarily naval architects with those qualifications and experience. Caveat Emptor!

I have to agree here, and as a Naval Architect it shits me. Sit down and write a list of the first 10 "yacht designers" that come to mind. I'd be willing to bet that at best 2 of them are Naval Architects, 3 more will have Naval architects on Staff and the other 5 have bought themselves "Maxsurf" or similar software and now think of themselves as Naval Architects.

In regards to calculating stability, given the time and attention to detail it is not difficult to write an accurate enough weight estimate (I've had 18 000kg non-ballasted boat come in with 30kg) and once you've done that, the software will do the rest of the work.

[sea bogan]

But in the combined races SIs, the rule is quite clear - if you don't have lifelines that comply with the special regs, the crew all wear PFDs whenever on deck. I'm getting jack of the boats that decide that rule doesn't suit them so they can ignore it.
[/quote]


well oz rick half the boats in the combined clubs racing do not comply with the regs on life lines so they should all be wearing pfd's in that case.

[SPORTSCAR]

[quote name='Heaven can wait' date='Mar 24 2006, 12:57 PM' post='675116']
[quote name='SPORTSCAR' post='675090' date='Mar 23 2006, 05:38 PM']
[quote name='ntman' post='673792' date='Mar 23 2006, 10:33 PM']
you are probably right Naval Architects design most boats these days (and some like Al have access to naval architects) How hard is it to calculate stability numbers?
[/quote]


I beg to differ on this. There is a vast difference between "boat designers" and naval architects. Anyone can hang up a shingle and call himself a boat designer and many have done so including some very well known names. They may charge shitloads for designing boats but they are NOT necessarily naval architects with those qualifications and experience. Caveat Emptor!
[/quote]



Bit like Steve Thompson, he designs great boats, but he has an Engineering background.

How are going there SPORTSCAR, been thinking about you?


Or Greg Elliott who designs boats and doesn't have an engineering background?
Things are " progressing" in the matter we have discussed. Will PM you details soon.

[ntman]

To be honest i am not referring to the training when I talk about Naval Architects, I meant it in the generic sense ie. people who design boats. I don't know how hard the calculations are but I assume it is plugging numbers into reasonably well established formulas. I guess what i am saying is that someone with the technical ability to design a boat would probably have the ability (or access to someone who does) to plug the numbers of their design into a formula or piece of software. Using my many assumptions I am wondering why some stability requirement for sports boats can't be based on this sort of calculation. and if a boat falls short or can't prove its stability using these calculations then they have to prove safety through other means (bouyancy etc.)
I don't want to get into the debate on who is or isn't a naval architect. I will however say that some of the greatest yacht designers of all time don't have formal (university) training in Naval Architecture as such. Also some great designers do have this training

NT

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Here's an interesting view of Pittwater. Our nmea log exported to Google Earth. Its a good indicator of what happens to the wind and why the Eastern shore always seems to be better. Wind was NE and after the second port tack up to Careel Bay the track shows how the wind was lifting and knocking.

Top mark was Observation, intermediate was Portugese.

Oh yes, the 'start of track' to 'end of track' marks were under motor - the wiggles were putting on sunblock, looking at the boats etc!

KO

Attached Files

•  PW_NE_Sun1203_A.jpg   33.48K   22 downloads

[Heaven can wait]

Our very own Ben Lexan is a classic example of the self taught boat designer,

However much of the Stability that we see in boats can be crudely explained with relatively simple Maths.

If I weigh 100kgs and I pull an unballasted boat over from the hounds, I'd better be prepared to catch the rig as it will hit me on the way over.

Likewise if by pulling down on the hounds there is approximately 1/3 of the boats weight hanging off the bottom of a keel, then I'm going to struggle to pull the mast down.

Various designers will tell you that you need at least 1/3 of a boats overall weight to become self-righting, anything from that 1/3 up increases overall stability.

Sorry to sound dogmatic in my post, however you can get a fairly good idea of A) how self - righting a boat is and how much additional stability a boat has, from the overall Dry weight of the boat and the Bulb or keel weight.

Hull form also has a marked impact on stability, such that a slab sided, flat bottomed hull will have more form stability than a Half Moon or U shaped hull.

[Turkey Slapper]

But in the combined races SIs, the rule is quite clear - if you don't have lifelines that comply with the special regs, the crew all wear PFDs whenever on deck. I'm getting jack of the boats that decide that rule doesn't suit them so they can ignore it.

well oz rick half the boats in the combined clubs racing do not comply with the regs on life lines so they should all be wearing pfd's in that case.

I think half is a bit high, but a good number don't comply - it's a private bitch for me, with guys who race without compliant lifelines and without PFDs free to chime in about which part of Rule 3 allows them to ignore the PFD requirement. I figure if people race without compliant lines and no PFD while the SI's are very specific about this, then those people are cheating.

I would say 90% of the boats out there would not pass the rules governing lifelines (Personal bitch of mine for years as wearing lifejackets to conform to rule isnt fair when so many blatently ignore the rails rule) that includes every boat with loose, webbing strap and covered wire. Name one trailer sailor that has correct tension/material lines. On a drifter of a day and its 30+ degrees its a wonder no one has passed out (oh thats right sailing is a sport so that makes us athleets ). Troppo has rope that comes back from the bow rail a coupla meters so that classes us as having lines as much as any other non conforming boat but we still wear pfd's.

Wouldnt a well placed group protest in the combined fleet race over this issue cause a stir. All in the name of safety of course.

[Heaven can wait]

Slapper and Rick, whats the go with one Lifeline per side, they have minimal height for the upper lifeline, but no reference that you must have 2 sets per side. Do You two know anything different.

[GybeSet®]

Slapper and Rick, whats the go with one Lifeline per side, they have minimal height for the upper lifeline, but no reference that you must have 2 sets per side. Do You two know anything different.

Covered in YA Special Regs 3.12 cover lifelines, staunchions and pulpits. Extracts - 3.12.5 - under 8.5 metres "Taut double lifelines with upper lifeline not less than 450mm above working deck", and over 8.5 same, but 600mm. "Intermediate lifeline(s) shall be fitted so that no vertical opening exceeds 380mm. All those are compulsory 1-4, and recommended 5 and 6. 3.12.6 is about materials and diameters.

My read is there is no option for one lifeline per side being compliant.

i imagine if you are CAT 5,6,7 and thus are not required to have them, you can do them as you wish, like the Melges 24,

Test case
would one of them would be (cat5) illegal ? ie if a cat5,6,7 had lifelines would they have to be of the cat4 compliant variety?

Obviously if you haven't a LEGAL (ie cat4) set PFD's go on.

[GybeSet®]

Oz, note word "or" regards PFD1,

I don't think it's just SI's any more but a YA requirement.

and cat 5 6 7 (ie sportsboat racing in Aus) can either have no lifelines, or lifelines whether compliant or non-compliant.

[GybeSet®]

pfd1 or pfd2s, I don't see the 'cat amongst pigeons' issue given there is a choice ?

[GybeSet®]

you'd hope that it would be hard to buy a non-standards vest , protest em, no need for an issue !!

[TD Floater]

I think the difference is that 2 had to be certain colours, predominant yellow or orange. So the black and other colour kayak/waterski types are usally 3. Also thought they were supposed to have relective tape, but this dosen't seem to be the case.

While on pfd's, I think the blow up ones are dicey. We didn't wear ours at Marlay because they were out of date. However, after reading the book, I'm pretty sure they don't need to be serviced until cat 3 or 4. As we were night sailing I told the guys that we would wear the 2's. Maybe pedantic or wahtever, but I wasn't relying on them.

[Heaven can wait]

Adding to the PFD talk, are there any rules as to when they must be worn. I race Inshore in Cat 7 races usually, however Rick and Slapper Race Offshore so more or less wearing them would be obvious.

I have never worn a PFD whilst Racing Cat 7 at my Club, my Boat being a Sportsboat, as funny as this seams is the only boat in Div 1 with anything that resembles Lifelines in a fleet of Leadbellies.

Sailing at night no question PFD's and in my case even Harnesses on.

[TD Floater]

Yep, and agree with you and the camera and protests. I don't care usally, just our safety is what matters. However, its low that peple try and flirt it, and you have to wear them. go get them.

[Heaven can wait]

Adding to the PFD talk, are there any rules as to when they must be worn. I race Inshore in Cat 7 races usually, however Rick and Slapper Race Offshore so more or less wearing them would be obvious.

I have never worn a PFD whilst Racing Cat 7 at my Club, my Boat as funny as this seams is the only boat in Div 1 with anything that resembles Lifelines in a fleet of Leadbellies.

Sailing at night no question PFD's and in my case even Harnesses on.

No need in Cat 7, as per 5.01.1 (e) above, but .......
I think it likely that at some point in time, we (the competing sailors) are going to have to stand up to YA and tell them that we're not happy with the way they bring in rules, and that some of the rules need a big rethink. Having said that, until inappropriate rules are changed, I'm a firm believer that we must abide by the rules as they stand, and you can't not comply because it doesn't suit.

For your races, it appears you're fine, until someone changes the R to a 7 in a subsequent reprint, and you're stuck with it. Until the current issue of the YA safety regulations, the only requirement for wearing PFDs was listed againt Cat 5N (that is the old AYF SR 2001-2004). Interestingly, in the "proposed YA Saftey Regs" (my) draft copy dated 31/5/04, there were 22 lines, whereas the Blue Book has 37 lines ........ Also the notation about code flag Y requiring all competitors (in 5,6 and 7) to wear PFD's was dropped.

Before someone says I'm arguing against myself, I'm just making the point - safety regs are very important, and we need to undestand why the regs are brough into place, however we don't need someone changes the regs without wide reference to the sailing community (and a committee of state based reps doesn not constitute a wide ref to the community!).

Steve and Rick,

The discussions I've had recently with the Chairman of the Special Regs Com, was to basically find out what we can do with the HcW-24 hour if we are to have the Event to fly under the Radar so to speak.

This quote was meant by no means that the RC of the HcW will do anything untoward, but in an attempt by all to simplify the Category requirements for this Race.

I know it sounds simplistic but the only reason why the HcW is Cat 5N is because it sails through the night, the rest of the time from start to dusk and dusk to finish it is Cat 7. However you can't have some boats enter as Cat 7 and go home at Dusk and start again the following morning, and some enter Cat 5N and sail through the night, it would just be a logistical nightmare.

Anyway the main subject of the discussions was primarily to confirm what boats could do to comply with 3.01.1 & 3.01.2 if they didn't have the appropriate documentation, which I might add is a substantial number of boats.

What we suggested was that boats unable to comply with rule 3.01.1 & .2 sail with PFD's and additional safeties including night sticks, and even with the prospect of a Rescue Helicopter on standby, the NSW Special Regs would not be keen to grant Dispensation given what has and is happening in Victoria at the moment.

The PFD issue is important however some common ground needs to be found in relation to specific situations where some YA requirements aren't practical.

I mean you don't even need a Harness and teather for a Cat 5N race, and that is dumb, non self -righting Trailerables aside.

[TD Floater]

So what are those rules?

We sailed 5N at Marlay with no hassles.

[GybeSet®]

no jackets is protest-able now cept cat7 or lifelines fitted, SO (turks) it 5.01.1 (e)

5.01 PERSONAL FLOTATION DEVICES

5.01.1 One personal flotation device (PFD) for each member of
the crew as follows: CATs 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
(a) PFD1 for each member of the crew, vest type, not the bulky “MaeWest” type. 1 2 R R R R R
(b) PFD1 for each member of the crew. The bulky “MaeWest” type will not be accepted after 1 July 2007. 3 4
 c.  A PFD1 or PFD2 shall be worn by each member of the crew. No N
(d) PFD1 or PFD2 (on board) for each member of the crew. 5 6 7

(e) On a boat without lifelines complying with 3.12, a PFD1 or PFD2 shall be worn by each member of the crew while on deck. CATs 5 6 R

5.01.2
Each PFD1 shall comply with:- i) Australian Standard AS1512; or ii) An equivalent or more stringent overseas standard such as EN 396; and iii) Shall be branded with their mark of approval. A combined PFD1 and Safety Harness may be used so long as it meets the respective standard for each. Cats 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

5.01.3
Each PFD2 shall comply with:- i) Australian Standard AS1499; or ii) An equivalent or more stringent overseas standard such as EN 395; and iii) Shall be branded with their mark of approval. 5 6 7

5.01.4
Each PFD shall have:- i) marine grade retroflective tape; 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

that's where the drownings are occurring, tethered by (trap) harness, 6 Med. Sunsail employees just got 3yr jail terms for a 13yo girls drowning caught under the tramp of a Hobie, has also happened not so long ago to Tornado expert. TETHERS are used on RIGHTING boats where you are brought back into the air so you don't drown.

HCW you are saying non-righters should or should not heave 'em ??

[GybeSet®]

hcw, are you saying non-righters should or shouldn't have 'em.

I think the rules are right btw.

cat 6 protected waters, cat 5 protected waters, near land. crew now need pfd's worn, or l'lines.

THERE is some middle ground between a off the beach Dinghy and a 'distance ocean racer'. Your reco features and equipment are to have a TS16 ( or the Qld 6mtr sportsboats ) at cat3 or 4 level then ?

[Heaven can wait]

GS, I did say Non - Self Righters aside, and as you know if you're on BS 23 when she goes over you don't want to be tethered - word GS I'm with 100%, However.....

During a night passage as soon as it gets dark, then those on deck of a "Self - Righting" TS should have Tethers, I say that mainly if you're sailing short handed, and quite often crews are on deck but snoozing.

Would be horrible to loose your skipper during the night because he or she fell out the back of the boat and no one heard them go over. Likewise if one of crew goes over board at least you've got some chance to get them back on deck quickly, but more importantly you've got them in sight.

Non - Self Righters to NOT wear tethers, as this is more dangerous than helpful.

I use inflatable PFD's with intergrated Harness, so I guess I'm covered with the Lifeline/Tether issues, however I think this is a Grey area which has to be sorted.

GS, Solings, Adams 10's, Etchells etc... wear PFD's, did the E's wear them for the Worlds off Mooloolabah last year?

[GybeSet®]

No they don't , not under the CAT 7 they predominately race under in NSW. yes Rick if cat6 they have to, it's gone beyond Y.A. into Govt leglisl.

I know about the y.a. rule (I posted the rule above right? -- it's a recent 2006 implementation ) and have lobbied Mooney (Re no-lifelines=PFD) 2 yrs ago since the rules guy died off of the t7 in the BMW winter series.

a prediction for you
Self Righters to NOT wear tethers, this won't happen Grey area and 2b sorted is an opinion, Y.A. don't see it that way...... it's not seen as a grey area and won't be sorted.

tethers aren't on trailables because there are degrees of difference between Offshore in unprotected waters (bass strait night) in a boat with a certified stability index Cat2,3,4 etc) , and a .....
Unstable trailer sailer with dubious and arguable righting stability in protected waters with some degree of rescue available (cat5,6).
You've seen the picture of Marg A. a 'righter' held down by the spinnaker in the open ocean, a tethered bod could be clipped up on the wrong side under the rigging.
Luckily like a non righting SB (and unlike righters/J24's) she was bouyant,

You would not want to be attached to a soling.star,yngling or a J24 in a knockdown, nor one of the supposed righting SB's, light trailables can get knocked down to never come back up, you don't want to be tethered.
wouldnt want tp be tethered to the wrong side of this RIGHTER, look at the large bulb btw.

OzR you are not an SBer?, but if you were in SB forums often you would know that the bouyant SB's (type2's or some non-righters) have been shown to be safer than a Lead-assisted trip to the bottom of the sea.

hcw, like lifelines and 150% overlappers and offshore sportsboats you are blurring the line between yachts , and the skiffy-trailables we know know as the racing class sportsboats.

Is one to believe that one would go out in protected waters with a safety-harness/PFD combo AND lifelines on an afternoon in a cat7-6 situation , like some picture of Robyn Knox-Johnston off of the Horn?

This is a little out of touch with what others do.

There is certainly an area between a large dinghy and an offshore racer. From say a 20' sharpie or dutchman, to a 16' hartley you need not have them sailing side, same water same afternoon, with the shorter Hartley rigged for Hobart.

These are the cats 5 , 6 and 7 , and yes tethered would be dangerous in an easily knocked-down boat.

[Heaven can wait]

GS, you are only talking about 2 Races in Australia (That I know of) that Race 5 N, at night.

All the Sportsboat Races generally are between Cat 5 and Cat 7 in sheltered waters in daylight hours IIRC.

The PFD I don't wear currently for Cat 7, however I do only use a PFD at night, along with a Tether. If all else fails GS, my boat will float.

In any rate if you haven't got Lifelines then PFD's Cat 6 and up - werd.

Tethers optional, however it's really an obligation for the skipper to warrant as to whether his or her boat is Self-Righting enough. .

[GybeSet®]

.
.....................or better still floats,

the original intent of watercraft since well before the wheel was invented, 5000 10,000 B.C. ? keep the homosapiens ABOVE the surface.
( whoops a non-current reference.)

Like alot of old fashioned ideas I think the simple mantra behind this one might actually work,

like a lot of things in life it pays to return the the fundamentals when things are blurred or complicated beyond what is necessary.

[Heaven can wait]

GS, you are only talking about 2 Races in Australia (That I know of) that Race 5 N, at night.

Actually a few more than 2 - our club runs a night series ( 4 races over several months) that's raced under cat 5N, and the QCYC surf to city inshore is also cat 5N

Sorry Rick, just quoting on the 5N Races that I've seen NOR's for and knew of, I would certainly think there probably are more as LMYC do a Half assed one O'nighter as well.

Incidently where does the Surf to City run Inshore at night?

[GybeSet®]

As to semantics, I'm unaware of where "bouyant non-righter SB's have been shown to be safer than self righting lead keeled vessels" .... where is the proof, or is it someones' opinion?

mate the ones without bouyancy sink, the others don't. one can draw own opinions I guess.
Proof of bouyancy ? plenty, Marg L in first race of 05 Hogs

GS, you are only talking about 2 Races in Australia (That I know of) that Race 5 N, at night.

No i'm talking about cat6 and cat5. where lifejackets are required and l' lines are optional, most trailable races

[GybeSet®]

she wasn't the only example on that day (Only 6 finishers, plenty of towing), nor other races on other days in other locales.

The bouyant boats still were bouyant then too.
Rules are already in place I'm not advocating any change, in fact i'm arguing that they have it right.

By the way I agree how things become de-facto truth or urban MYTHS.
e.g. you should be more careful using phrases like "CREW were LOST "

[GybeSet®]

others were towed
btw would want to be tethered to this self righting fixed keeler (24')
in another 15secs she was goooorrrrn.

tethers belong on larger offshore boats with increased SSSN,STIX and AVS evidence of 'righting'. I believe YA have it right in encouraging PFDs, not encouraging bods to clip on to a small yacht.
From a individual scenario if you were solo or two-up and had faith in your boats self righting, clipping would be sensible, but YA have it right for 'all scenarios, worst case' POV

[TD Floater]

man if I was that bloke on top, I would have said bugger the rudder it can go too!

[Heaven can wait]

GS, When I approached the Special Regs Committee about those that didn't quite fit the 3.01 Rule, I supplied them with a list of additional safety gear that might be included, and this also includes non-self righters and boats with wings.

We suggested that boats non - self righting and NOT 3.01 Compliant carry.

1 personal Epirb or 406 boat Epirb per Non - self righter and boats that don't comply with 3.01.

PFD's on all boats that don't comply with 3.01 - non self righters already have this on as part of Rule 3.01.2.

Night sticks to be worn be most forward and most aft crew on boat with wings.

Retro reflective tape on boat extremities (Winged boats and Multis)

Personal strobe and whistle for each crew (Non Self righter and Non 3.01 Rule compliant)

Now you may disagree with what was recommended however the SRC did see merit in all of the suggestions, which as they quoted would be more up to date with todays Sportsboats designs.

Having said that we have a Helicopter, Water police, NSW Maritime and Vollies on standby if the shite hits the fan.

Quote = Over kill, but as safe as we can make it.

Flame away.

[Heaven can wait]

Rick, my fault, that was from last years Cat 5 Cert. It is now as follows:

3.04 Self Righting Ability
Buoyancy for Non Self Righting Boats

5.03.2 Personal location lights and wear PFD's (N)

Anyone of you guys got coloured Storm Sails?

[TD Floater]

Ummm, no. Sounds fast though

[Heaven can wait]

Ummm, no. Sounds fast though

Steve I just noticed that on the Cat 5 Cert - (the new one) you need coloured Storm Sails, shite I've only got the standard issue "white" ones.

[GybeSet®]

I'm guessing that is accompanied by an ' R ' for recommended in cat5?

Surely, this was not mandatory for last years that I did.

It cuts in at cat4 from memory, existing cat3 2, 1, boats had to add a sqr mtr of orange material on both sides of existing storm sails. ( sails built since jul 2005 need to be all dayglo)
we getting carried away a bit ?
==========================================================

(updated)

Theres a certain method to reading/interpreting the safeties, and not easy to explain, and certainly not clear.

for example a cat 6 and 7 boat's it appears a vessel may need certain fuel line standards and 2 x 10be extinguishers and 8 hrs fuel, HOWEVER it is not required to have an engine.

A pure hypothetical to give another example , a boat may need numbers and reef points on a Mizzen sail, but a mizzen and 2nd mast is not mandatory.

That is the case in Cat5 regarding reducing sail.

IF you opt for a trysail and storm jib built it HAS to be a dayglo colour (dayglo patches pre Jul '05), the checklist caters for this.

IF you take the 'heavy weather jib plus mainsail reef points' option the dayglo DOES NOT apply.

As Ozrick mentioned info here may be assumed to be correct, so with something as important as safety it's a good idea to check THOROUGHLY, to avoid starting bushfires. Or maybe pose the question to figger it out.

Also 3.01 is adequately addressed by YA,I like the lightstick idea, but the cost of personal epirbs and new storm sails will deter. I'd sort it out offline!

.Do you remember who? I was on the boat with the clubs rear commodore, who was in regular radio contact with the rescue boats, and I don't recall any other boats being under tow - certainly there was a lot of radio traffic, but once things settled down, I thought it was just the one. We completed the course, but passed the tow on the way in - didn't see any others but they could've been in much earlier - seem to recall a BS (Avid?) lost her stick one race, but saw them under motor going home.

Rick , it's here on SB forums, detailed over and over, it's enuf ! no the BS did not lose a stick that week, and yes I remember who, tho it has NO bearing on this issue and is a tangent

[TD Floater]

Actually I seem to recall it for Marlay, sort of hoped we wouldn't get checked, and hoped we could use a not class sail type thing.

[Heaven can wait]

[quote name='GybeSet' date='Mar 27 2006, 05:59 AM' post='678219']
I'm guessing that is accompanied by an ' R ' for recommended in cat5?

Surely, this was not mandatory for last years that I did.

It cuts in at cat4 from memory, existing cat3 2, 1, boats had to add a sqr mtr of orange material on both sides of existing storm sails. ( sails built since jul 2005 need to be all dayglo)
we getting carried away a bit ?
==========================================================

(updated)

Theres a certain method to reading/interpreting the safeties, and not easy to explain, and certainly not clear.

for example a cat 6 and 7 boat's it appears a vessel may need certain fuel line standards and 2 x 10be extinguishers and 8 hrs fuel, HOWEVER it is not required to have an engine.

A pure hypothetical to give another example , a boat may need numbers and reef points on a Mizzen sail, but a mizzen and 2nd mast is not mandatory.

That is the case in Cat5 regarding reducing sail.

IF you opt for a trysail and storm jib built it HAS to be a dayglo colour (dayglo patches pre Jul '05), the checklist caters for this.

IF you take the 'heavy weather jib plus mainsail reef points' option the dayglo DOES NOT apply.

As Ozrick mentioned info here may be assumed to be correct, so with something as important as safety it's a good idea to check THOROUGHLY, to avoid starting bushfires. Or maybe pose the question to figger it out.

Also 3.01 is adequately addressed by YA,I like the lightstick idea, but the cost of personal epirbs and new storm sails will deter. I'd sort it out offline!



GS, according to the Blue Book the Storm Sails are mandatory for Cat 5 Rule 4.24, which kinda fly's in the face of what essentially Cat 5 is, Protected waters in daylight or protected waters at night with limited rescue support. Would you not think a RC has a say in what conditions a suitable to continue Racing.

At any rate aside from the PFD issue and other safeties, the personal Epirb could be seen as cheap compared to a new Storm Sail and Tri -sail we now have to have for Cat 5.

Oh well best get the "Heavy as" Jib up to the Sailmaker for some Coloured patches.

[GybeSet®]

please type the wording in here. (not the checklist) the bit that lists what catagories need what

(eg reads like 1 2 3 4 N R R ) for the 7 cats, you know the part !

I don't read it like you. How many people will get that on there Hartleys and Cherry 16's for marley. IMPOSSIBLE.

I read that cat5 gan use

1. a main with reef points that reduce luff 25%
2. a heavy weather jib luff length not exceeding 13.5% of foretringle.

the alternative

1. trysail (dayglo) size mentioneds
2. storm jib (dayglo) size mentioned

pls type it in , I would want to know as Marlay would not have been able to go ahead with the latter (costs), and CAT5 trailable racing would be of a historic interest only ?

i have not the ~~> hardcopy at hand. I am running off these post Jul 2005 docs which i believe are current.
excerpt
link here to rgyc checklist
4.24.2 Trysails and storm jibs to have high visibility patches
4.24.4(b Storm or heavy weather jib to have alternate fixing to forestay
4.24.4(f) Heavy weather jib available (13.5% height of foretriangle)
4.24.4(g) Storm trysail or mainsail reefing to reduce luff by 40%
4.24.4(h) Storm trysail or mainsail reefing to reduce luff by 25%

[GybeSet®]

excerpt from a cat 4 checklist lmyc
link here to cat4 checklist 2005-2008

4.24 MAINSAIL REEFING BY 40% OR TRYSAIL as per 4.24.4
4.24.4 HEAVY WEATHER or STORM JIB YA RULE BOOK
4.24.2 Storm sails COLOURED or PATCHES
4.26 MOB RETRIEVAL GEAR
4.16 BOATS NAME on buoyant equipment


4.24 MAINSAIL REEFING BY 40% OR TRYSAIL as per 4.24.4
4.24.4 HEAVY WEATHER or STORM JIB YA RULE BOOK
4.24.2 Storm sails COLOURED or PATCHES
4.10 LMYC WHITE BOOK

good news not even mandatory for cat4

HW jib and reefable main not subject to dayglo colours, in fact the 'storm jib' and 'storm trysail' i.e that is the 'coloured ones' are not mandatory till cats 1, and 2
.

[Heaven can wait]

4.24 Storm & Heavy Weather Sails

4.24.1 Design 1 2 3 4 5 R

It is strongly recommended that owners consult their designer and sailmaker to decide the most effective size for storm and heavy weather sails. The purpose of these sails is to provide safe propulsion for the boat inn severe weather - they are not intended as part of the Racing Wardrobe. The areas below are maxima. Smaller areas are likely to suite some boats according to there stability and other characteristics.

4.24.2 High Visibility 1 2 3 4 5 R

Every Trysail and Storm Jib shall either be of highly visible coloured material (eg dayglo pink, orange or yellow) or have a highly visible coloured patch added on each side. Patches shall be in the upper 20% of the area of the sail.

A new Trysail or a Storm Jib purchased after July 2005 shall be made entirely of highly visible coloured material.

A rotating wing mast used in lieu of a Trysail shall have a highly visible coloured patch on each side.

4.24.3 Materials

4.24.4 The following shall be provided :- 1 2 3 4 5 R

a) Sheeting positions on deck for each storm and heavy weather sail.

Each storm or heavy - weather Jib shall have a means to attach the Luff to the Stay, independent of any Luff-groove device.

f) A heavy-weather jib (or Heavy - weather sail in a yacht with no forestay) of area not greater thsn 13.5% height of the foretriangle squared, and without reef points. 1 2 3 4 5 R

H) Either a storm Trysail or Mainsail Reefing points to reduce the luff by at least 25% 5 R

Does all that help? Still looks to me that you got to have Storm Sails of some desciption, to comply with Cat 5, me thinks.

[GybeSet®]

as I posted above at grt cost of time

Theres a certain method to reading/interpreting the safeties

the two tiny little wordings

"OR reefing points"

"OR heavy weather jib"

note they are NOT subject to colouring !!
doesn't cut in as mandatory until cat2

take advice on 3.01 as well. wildfires can only confuse and deter entries, there are precedents (marlay) or ozricks races, that can be determined offline !

[Heaven can wait]

Roger GS, your interpretation differs to mine however..... what is

4.10 LYMC White Book?



They should have

4.29 Fack this lets go home R R R R R R R

Least that would be reasonably straight forward.

[GybeSet®]

I don't think the word OR needs interpreting !!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'white book' ; it's just a part of the 'cut/paste', and is not applicable to storm sails.

I posted the URLS as you need to look at them, (they highlight the issue / point of difference) it's in there.

[Heaven can wait]

I don't think the word OR needs interpreting !!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'white book' ; it's just a part of the 'cut/paste', and is not applicable to coloured sails

I posted the URLS as you need to look at them, it's in there.

All part of the Joys of Dial up GS, while I post 1 you post 10, buy the time I posted the Blue Book ruling you'd already answered your own question.

[GybeSet®]

you do well for dial-up

of course needed to establish you are looking at the same text/rule as I, was my only question. I am rock - solid on the rule

so no coloured sails ?, or you going to the sailmaker ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ps I heard ADSL broadband had reached Gwandaland, not at yr place yet? its not too expensive when bundled in with the line rental

[Heaven can wait]

you do well for dial-up

of course needed to establish you are looking at the same text/rule as I.

so no coloured sails ?, or you going to the sailmaker ?

Maybe not eh, but I was never getting Coloured sails only patches for my Stormsail if required, the main already has two reefing points.

Point I make is that for Cat 5 you need some kind of Storm or heavy weather sails or the ability to decrease working sail big time, is that not what the requirement is asking for?

[GybeSet®]

that is what I have been trying to point out despite rebuttals ! YES

min requirements

1. a main with reef points that reduce luff 25%
2. a heavy weather jib area not exceeding 13.5% of luff length squared
no colour

[Heaven can wait]

you do well for dial-up

of course needed to establish you are looking at the same text/rule as I, was my only question. I am rock - solid on the rule

so no coloured sails ?, or you going to the sailmaker ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ps I heard ADSL broadband had reached Gwandaland, not at yr place yet? its not too expensive when bundled in with the line rental

All set to go GS with Telstra, had the modem set up and everything, only problem is Bigpond Broadband don't talk to Windows 98.

End of story.

Fact is when your Illness takes away your business and your income you got to go with what you got, and Windows XP isn't one of the things high on the agenda at the moment.

HcW 24-hour Race is where my Pension goes.

[Heaven can wait]

Yesterday happened to look at the front page of The Coastal Passage (qld cruising rag - www.thecoastalpassage.com and downlaod 18th issue) and noted interesting picture of Wild Oats XI - shot is of bow, bowsprit, bowman, and a Rolex bouy. Interested me that much that I went searching and found http://www.afrancoli...ts2005_1793.jpg. Now how does YA SR rule 3.12.3 apply?
"The following shall be provided:
(a) a bow pulpit forward of the headstay (however on yachts under 8.5 m the bow pulpit may be aft of the headstay provided the forward upper rail is within 405 mm of the headstay) with vertical height and openings essentially conforming to 3.12.5.
Bow pulpits may be open but the opening between the pulpit and any part of the boat, including the forestay, shall never be greater than 360mm. (This requirement shall be checked by presenting a 360mm sphere inside the opening.)"
and it's listed as 1234RR

Not a gambling man, but if those are regular sized people, I'd bet $0.50 cents that a 360mm sphere will fit through the opening in the bow pulpit, below the level of the top line ..... have I got my perception and interpretation of (this photograph and) this rule all wrong (highly likely!) or is there potentially an issue?

Hey Oz check out the Coastal Passage over the next couple of editions, The Heaven can Wait 24-hour gets a mention, thanks to my other Queensland support further up North.

On your Wild Oats query wouldn't that come under Power boats - different rules my friend - Haw - Haw , however to avoid the wraith of GS, maybe we might have to pick on SB's or JOG boats at least?

[DAZMAN]

What are peoples thoughts on the Spider 22? Especially once modified with a bowspirt and taller mast? as I may be buying one with these modifications to it.

[Heaven can wait]

What are peoples thoughts on the Spider 22? Especially once modified with a bowspirt and taller mast? as I may be buying one with these modifications to it.

Great boats Daz, flighty, but if those modifications make it easier, and more enjoyable then go for it I say, had some great battles with the 22's over the years, racing on a mates MASRM 750.

Best of luck with it, oh and see you at the Heaven can Wait 24-hour in October.

[Heaven can wait]

Does anyone here in Oz, sail out of the RMYC at Toronto?

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

Does anyone here in Oz, sail out of the RMYC at Toronto?

better question would be

"Any1 here brave enough to say they sail out of RMYC at Toronto"

[Heaven can wait]

Does anyone here in Oz, sail out of the RMYC at Toronto?

better question would be

"Any1 here brave enough to say they sail out of RMYC at Toronto"

Just wanted to check whether or not they actually give a Toss about the Outside World, you know the one you and I live in - Fair Dinkum.

[Ken S]

Does anyone here in Oz, sail out of the RMYC at Toronto?

better question would be

"Any1 here brave enough to say they sail out of RMYC at Toronto"

Just wanted to check whether or not they actually give a Toss about the Outside World, you know the one you and I live in - Fair Dinkum.

I sailed out of there last season on the Bull9000, only been sailing there on and off now, and have sailed the S22 there incywincy, I beleive there is alot less politcal bullsh*t there than LMYC, Why you ask HCW??

[Jacko_Aus]

Wangi member meself....

[Heaven can wait]

Does anyone here in Oz, sail out of the RMYC at Toronto?

better question would be

"Any1 here brave enough to say they sail out of RMYC at Toronto"

Just wanted to check whether or not they actually give a Toss about the Outside World, you know the one you and I live in - Fair Dinkum.

I sailed out of there last season on the Bull9000, only been sailing there on and off now, and have sailed the S22 there incywincy, I beleive there is alot less politcal bullsh*t there than LMYC, Why you ask HCW??

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've left at least 15 odd messages with the RMYC Commodore's Secretary, to give get some feed back as to getting involved with the HcW 24-hour, Wangi's Cool as they are trying to mend broken bridges, but RMYC for Farrk Sake.

The HcW is for the whole Lake, and over time each Club will have the opportunity to host the Race. The Sponsors I have are for the Race, so they go to each Club that Hosts. It's a Win - Win for everyone and if they don't want to play, then they are the ones that will loose out a huge opportunity.

Belmont 16 Footers look like they're going to more than all the others put together and they're a Skiff Club.

Jacko do you get up and sail much out of Wangi?

We used to have inter-clubers with Wangi for Years, some of the best Racing I've had Too, however Wangi couldn't work out their Sailing Calendar and pretty soon my Club got Jack of it.

I've not had much to do with Toronto, cept with the TS16's one year, I'd certainly like to shake the hand of the Donkey that built their Marina, talk about painfull if you leave something in the Car.

[GybeSet®]

Is the Mungral Toronto based, B.o.t.Dog anarchist ?

[Heaven can wait]

Is the Mungral Toronto based, B.o.t.Dog anarchist ?

I haven't seen it GS, but you know my geographic location, coupla points and a dirty big Island blocking the view, but IIRC, he has said he gets out every so often. Hope he hasn't put a wheel in, seems that's what they like to do up there - Haw - Haw

[GybeSet®]

.
oh i thought you wanted a person from RMYC Toronto ?
.
.

All set to go GS with Telstra, had the modem set up and everything, only problem is Bigpond Broadband don't talk to Windows 98.
End of story......Fact is when your Illness takes away your business and your income you got to go with what you got, and Windows XP isn't one of the things high on the agenda at the moment.
HcW 24-hour Race is where my Pension goes.

even an old pirate copy of win 2000 Pro will work. means backing up yr " personal files " tho before you go over.

If you can't copy/burn your files to a disk. I would get another hard drives.( total 2) make sure your files are on the 2nd one (slave) and update the Operating system. get a local guru to help.

is it a pIII or better?

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

Is the Mungral Toronto based, B.o.t.Dog anarchist ?

no, the Mungral is a Wangi sailor, still gets out from what i know

KenS:

It may be less political than LMYC but the atmosphere is nicer over there and so is the service, went in there for a beer with a few mates the other week, it was like the spanish fucking inquesition trying to get in the door, Are you a member? Do you have ID, Are you going to be here for long? then they declined my sign in slip saying that i was inside the 5km radius and needed to get a member to sign me in. After going through all that horsehit and we got in and i wasnt surprised to see all of 6 ppl in the club on a sunday arvo

HCW:
Drop me a PM with your PC specs and we can have a talk about wat can be upgraded to get you into this century of IT technology

[Heaven can wait]

South Australian Sporties,

Have any of you guys sited a weird looking Ross 930 with a Carbon Mast, out on the water lately.

Beware, this boat is definately NOT what it seems. It was a freak to begin with, us older Lake Macquarie guys will know why!

[GybeSet®]

Crikey!

[Ken S]

Is the Mungral Toronto based, B.o.t.Dog anarchist ?

no, the Mungral is a Wangi sailor, still gets out from what i know

KenS:

It may be less political than LMYC but the atmosphere is nicer over there and so is the service, went in there for a beer with a few mates the other week, it was like the spanish fucking inquesition trying to get in the door, Are you a member? Do you have ID, Are you going to be here for long? then they declined my sign in slip saying that i was inside the 5km radius and needed to get a member to sign me in. After going through all that horsehit and we got in and i wasnt surprised to see all of 6 ppl in the club on a sunday arvo

HCW:
Drop me a PM with your PC specs and we can have a talk about wat can be upgraded to get you into this century of IT technology

1# The mungral sailor is a TORONTO sailor where it is moored, Also a LMYC sailor on wallop(which by the way is a toronto boat)
2* The mungral has competed in every twilight at toronto this season
3# It was purchased from an anarchist down south(who's nickname is mungral)

I agree with what your saying about the service and shit like that though,For F*cks sake after a twilight the other week i decided to stay for dinner with my GF (out on the balcony too mind you)Only to be told halfway through my meal that it had turned 7:30(or whatever time it was)and i'd have to vacate the premise because i was wearing thongs,She was adamant about it, so my mate who had some smelly, ugly, anti-foul stained, 3 yr old shoes in the back of his car that the dog had chewed holes in said i could borrow them, much to my amazement she accepted them because they were shoes, was a sight i can tell you, the thongs were much better.
At LMYC i can sit there all night and drink in thongs after racing no probs,

I can't work it out, they have the platform for a good club.

0.02c

[Heaven can wait]

I agree with what your saying about the service and shit like that though,For F*cks sake after a twilight the other week i decided to stay for dinner with my GF (out on the balcony too mind you)Only to be told halfway through my meal that it had turned 7:30(or whatever time it was)and i'd have to vacate the premise because i was wearing thongs,She was adamant about it, so my mate who had some smelly, ugly, anti-foul stained, 3 yr old shoes in the back of his car that the dog had chewed holes in said i could borrow them, much to my amazement she accepted them because they were shoes, was a sight i can tell you, the thongs were much better.
At LMYC i can sit there all night and drink in thongs after racing no probs,

I can't work it out, they have the platform for a good club.

0.02c
[/quote]




Have to say Ken and Gorn, as soon as you stick "Royal" in front of anything it usually ends up being a pain in the Ass.

From what I have seen in the Past it is probably these two Clubs that have experience the biggest downturn of boats sailing on the Lake. I think the main issue here is each Club and that goes for mine as well, needs to be "Fluid" in its management, bend with the times, and gain a better understanding of what is needed to grow. And more importantly go with what people want, not what is just "Normal".

As soon as you make management a nice "cushy" job you're gone, the long term members know what to expect, the New one's don't know what to expect, and the way I see it it's the NEW members that you've got to consider as the Old members do exactly that get Old and don't sail anymore, last thing we all want is to go from a Yacht Club to Retirement Village Complex.

"Fluid Management" I say guys, water changes its complexion every time you look at it. Don't watch the water for a while and it looks the same as when you last left it.

[Heaven can wait]

Any of you LM guys know what happened to Scotties "the Beast"?

Found where that really ugly RED alloy LMYC thing has been left to die, still has the O/B on the back.

Could never work out why it went so quick, performance wise, I know why it went so quick otherwise, the design was a shocker?

[GybeSet®]

.
Is there another 'the Beast' , or you mean the (A Class) Scow.

The scow is a Melges build, in glass.

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

the last owner of "The Beast" that i kno of was A Sharrock, it was until a few years ago still sitting in a pen at the yacht club filling with water and getting pumped out every now and then, no leads on where its gone to now tho, also the red "coke can" apparently went down to sydney sumwhere, there were speculations going round the club that maybe fox studios had bought it for a boat to use in the next "Waterworld" film

[Norm]

I think that scow is in a boatyard at taren point. It looks loke a cemetry for all old boats and moulds. Whats the story with that place ?. Same boats have been there for years literally.

Would the scow make a good twilighter ??. Needs a lot of work !!

[GybeSet®]

.
Is it the BIG one , 38 footer ?? if so .............

It would be a FAST twilighter; prerequisites, lotsa TLC, Premium crew. Eeeaassy one of the fastest mono classes in the world.

would winning every Fun race be worth that input ? yeah...... IF you like fiddling with boats, a lot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some background, brought to Lake Macq. (from U.S.) early eighties by water-ski tycoon Fred Williams (also A10 man),
ran a few 1-on-1 feature or promoted 'GRUDGE' matches against a selected crack 18 footer, Sorro in Tia Maria (or Bank of N.Z ?)
It's very!! numerous crew were stacked with trapezes (6-10?) for these. It's speed was in the ballpark !
.
An 'A' class Scow now (not the aussie one!)

nb BILL E GOAT, there's your new VANG sys

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

yep thats the 1, when was that photo taken?? i dare say the boat hasnt been out with sails up since not long after it was taken, since i started jr sailing at LMYC the boat always just seemed to move from the hardstand to various pens around the marina, it'd take a fair bit of work to get her back into race trim tho.

dont happen to have any more shots of her do u?

[Beer Ballast]

I saw the boat on a private slip last season between the 16 footers and green point. I haven't been on the water for a couple of months so not sure if it's still there. Maybe one of the belmont locals would know.

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

dont know if that 1 on the slip is The Beast tho BB, i know the boat ur talking about along the foreshore, i think its 1 of saddingtons old boats tho dont quote me on that, its been sitting there since before the scow left LMYC

[Heaven can wait]

the last owner of "The Beast" that i kno of was A Sharrock, it was until a few years ago still sitting in a pen at the yacht club filling with water and getting pumped out every now and then, no leads on where its gone to now tho, also the red "coke can" apparently went down to sydney sumwhere, there were speculations going round the club that maybe fox studios had bought it for a boat to use in the next "Waterworld" film

The "Coke Can" alas is slowly dying down the end of Carters Rd at Lake Munmorah. Looks like a Tray back Truck has just picked the boat up and just slid it off in someones front yard.

The Beast on the other hand aside from being full of water right out the front of LMYC, however the last I saw the boat sailing years ago now with it's "Skilled Engineering" yellow, blue and white kite.

I think they had 'Wings' on it at some stage. Sure would be a hoot down the Lake in a Southerly Buster, reckon it would have given 'Matchless' a run for her money. An don't that big cat go, geeze.

[geeaah]

The boat between the skiffie and the slip would be Noel Davies creation from about 10-12 years ago, not the scow.

[Don'tCallMeJudge]

.
Is it the BIG one , 38 footer ?? if so .............

It would be a FAST twilighter; prerequisites, lotsa TLC, Premium crew. Eeeaassy one of the fastest mono classes in the world.

would winning every Fun race be worth that input ? yeah...... IF you like fiddling with boats, a lot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some background, brought to Lake Macq. (from U.S.) early eighties by water-ski tycoon Fred Williams (also A10 man),
ran a few 1-on-1 feature or promoted 'GRUDGE' matches against a selected crack 18 footer, Sorro in Tia Maria (or Bank of N.Z ?)
It's very!! numerous crew were stacked with trapezes (6-10?) for these. It's speed was in the ballpark !
.
An 'A' class Scow now (not the aussie one!)

nb BILL E GOAT, there's your new VANG sys

If there is an A Scow down there, it's hard to believe that it would be in decent shape now. The photo above was taken last July 19th on Lake Minnetonka (Minnesota)... by me.

There will be seven (I think) A Scows racing on my Minnetonka this coming summer. Even if the old A is in semi beat-up shape, if any of you get a chance to go for a ride, I strongly encourage you to grab it!

[Heaven can wait]

There is such an extraordinary Irony in the fact that you took that photo, I'll tell why when you get Down Under DCMJ.

DCMJ, believe me when I say YOU are one of the shining examples of what is so very Cool in our Sport of Sailing.

[Turkey Slapper]

So What was the lone sportboat out in the XXXX gold cup today (and Rolls Ross in the suped up jayco) and was 2nd behind the NM 46 Quest in 3 races and in 1 race beaten by 1 of the 2 mumm 30's as well over W/L courses.

GS i forgot my terry toweling hat today and as far as we can work out, that was the reason one of the mumm's beat us, bugger!

[GybeSet®]

3/4 and 4/4 against each Mumm is pretty damn good, what breeze ?
kid's hide your hat?
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btw, vas is das ? (QCYC)
 QCYC.gif   165.31K   114 downloads
4 play?

[Barman]

3/4 and 4/4 against each Mumm is pretty damn good, what breeze ?
kid's hide your hat?
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btw, vas is das ? (QCYC)
 QCYC.gif   165.31K   114 downloads
4 play?

GS It was blowing between 5 & 18 knots with rain squalls coming through. Not really sure if the Mumms were really sailed all that well. It was flat water so we didn't slow down upwind to much. That photo is a Sam750 and I think its called Random Orbit.

[Turkey Slapper]

Yeah Random Orbit a home made ply chined and now winged shitter but they have fun but no where near as quick as the other winged shitters up here.

1st race was No2 rig with main flapping upwind with 6 on the side and the other 2 we had the No1 on with all on the side still. When the breese was up and flat water we only beat the mumms to the top mark by about 1.5 boat lengts and when the wind was a bit lower for the other races they were getting us up wind and the race one beat us we were on the wrong side of a 15 deg wind shift (shit happens when you go for the wrong cloud, and the last race the wind changed even more when we were about 200m from the finish and the boats just getting around the top mark got to reach to the finish under kite after us and quest had to gybe down the run.

Sorry sportboaters we couldnt beat the big boat, the bloody thing just gets away to much up wind, mabe that extra 21 feet work for them well?

[yowie]

TS well done. The distance back to you at the finish of the last race (15:00) gave the 46 a good look at the big pink one. Reckon they would have been quietly relieved to stay in front.
We were in the short-handed race, following Jen in Raffles who led from the front, one-up. A great effort.

[Markb]

TS well done. The distance back to you at the finish of the last race (15:00) gave the 46 a good look at the big pink one. Reckon they would have been quietly relieved to stay in front.
We were in the short-handed race, following Jen in Raffles who led from the front, one-up. A great effort.

What race were you watching. We were 3mins 45 in front in Race 4. TS you spot on about these big boats going up hill. We were doing 9's upwind which makes it easy but she certainly doesn't go like a sportsboat downhill. Sea Bogan and I were folding up sails on the foredeck downhill imagine trying to do that on the Stealth, there would off been a metre off water in the cockpit.

[Turkey Slapper]

A downwind start and finish and we might have had a chance but your nearly doing 2 knots quicker and a few deg higher which makes it very hard to pull that distance back, but we were trying. The owner was driving and i had to pull the bloody strings which made me sleep well last night (lucky im ripped and cut eh? )

I hear you guys had a bit of fun on the fordeck at times? Might have to come out of retirement if asked nicely!

Results
http://www.rqys.com....s_4_192hAll.htm

[yowie]

What race were you watching. We were 3mins 45 in front in Race 4. TS you spot on about these big boats going up hill. We were doing 9's upwind which makes it easy but she certainly doesn't go like a sportsboat downhill. Sea Bogan and I were folding up sails on the foredeck downhill imagine trying to do that on the Stealth, there would off been a metre off water in the cockpit.

Markb,
I think we saw the end of race four on Sunday.
You are right, 3:45 at the finish isnt that close but as TS says, more downhill and it could have got interesting.

[Chris 249]

.
Is it the BIG one , 38 footer ?? if so .............

It would be a FAST twilighter; prerequisites, lotsa TLC, Premium crew. Eeeaassy one of the fastest mono classes in the world.

would winning every Fun race be worth that input ? yeah...... IF you like fiddling with boats, a lot.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some background, brought to Lake Macq. (from U.S.) early eighties by water-ski tycoon Fred Williams (also A10 man),
ran a few 1-on-1 feature or promoted 'GRUDGE' matches against a selected crack 18 footer, Sorro in Tia Maria (or Bank of N.Z ?)
It's very!! numerous crew were stacked with trapezes (6-10?) for these. It's speed was in the ballpark !
.
An 'A' class Scow now (not the aussie one!)

nb BILL E GOAT, there's your new VANG sys

If there is an A Scow down there, it's hard to believe that it would be in decent shape now. The photo above was taken last July 19th on Lake Minnetonka (Minnesota)... by me.

There will be seven (I think) A Scows racing on my Minnetonka this coming summer. Even if the old A is in semi beat-up shape, if any of you get a chance to go for a ride, I strongly encourage you to grab it!

A couple of years ago the A Scow was sailing at Drummoyne and the mast ended up in four pieces, all full of mud from the look of it.

Now it's sitting in a yard full of old powerboats near Caringbah, on Captain Cook Drive I think. It's definitely the A, though.

There was another slightly smaller scow on the Lake, wasn't there? Is that the one on the Belmont foreshore? I saw what could have been the mast on the long weekend but didn't check the hull out (bit too busy using a 6.2 when all the waveboards were on 4.4s!).

[GybeSet®]

The scow at LMYC I always took to be the ex Fred Williams one, which I recall was a 38'er, not a 28'.

Sounds like the same boat? was the Drummoyne one orangey red?

There is another 'thing' on the shore at LM, not a US scow

The LM guys know the last owner, he would know if it went Sydeny way. I am assuming it is the same one
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TS, that SAm750 must be heavy I can't see why it wouldn't go ? Who is the designer? and are there other SAMs ?

[Turkey Slapper]

I havnt seen or heard of any others, it could be heavy going by the way it moves as even with wings most 2.5 wide boats beat it.