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#1 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:44 PM

We are getting ready for the start of our Spring Series, and some thing that has always bothered me is that we tie on the sheets to the clew of the Genoa using a bowline knot on each sheet. Each sail has a set of sheets and are ready to go if we need to change out the sails. I am not talking about the Bigger boats, but the sailboats from 20 to 28 ft. long. Is there a product that attaches to the ends of the lines to the clew that will not make the bowlines catch on the stays. I know, I Know get a book and learn how to splice them on the sails.

What would be your next suggestion.

#2 KnockinShop

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:51 PM

I use J-Clips... 32 foot boat. They are great...
If you don't need to change your sheets, why not put a loop halfway along the sheet, pass the loop through the clew, and pass both ends through this loop, and pull tight.... something you might do on a dinghy, but should be an easy way to do this, assuming loads aren't that high....

#3 Retired BN

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:52 PM

We are getting ready for the start of our Spring Series, and some thing that has always bothered me is that we tie on the sheets to the clew of the Genoa using a bowline knot on each sheet. Each sail has a set of sheets and are ready to go if we need to change out the sails. I am not talking about the Bigger boats, but the sailboats from 20 to 28 ft. long. Is there a product that attaches to the ends of the lines to the clew that will not make the bowlines catch on the stays. I know, I Know get a book and learn how to splice them on the sails.

What would be your next suggestion.


One set of sheets with J locks.

#4 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:53 PM

Already Emailed Him on this

I'll just wait for S Brennan to come in tooting his own horn, i wonder how long it is going to take?



#5 H20

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:54 PM

on my small boat I just doubled them, push the loop through the clew and then the line through that loop whatever thats called. I had sheets for every headsail..all two of them. Your sheets might be a little short for that. Smaller knot though but the fuckers will still get caught till you die.

#6 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:00 PM

I have done this in the past also, The knot or LOOP this is put into the sheet still get caught on the frig'n stays and anything else in the way. To add to this, It is almost impossible to take the lines off of the sail if you need to in a hurry, and the loop loads up after time. I am sure that this limits the max load on the line.

on my small boat I just doubled them, push the loop through the clew and then the line through that loop whatever thats called. I had sheets for every headsail..all two of them. Your sheets might be a little short for that. Smaller knot though but the fuckers will still get caught till you die.



#7 sailingk8

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:00 PM

damb things get caught on our boat too...46 footer...what do you do for bigger boat???

#8 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:01 PM

Just did a search for "J hooks" all I found was some structural stuff for builing, and something related to Hockey. Can someone provide a link.

BTW Thanks.

#9 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:03 PM

It might be time for all of us to put our heads together on this problem also. I small device that fits threw the clew on both sides and secures the line ends tight and out of the way.

#10 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:05 PM

Ok found the link to the J locks

http://www.tylaska.com/jlock.htm

I don't want to use anything metal, Have you ever been hit in the head with one of these things. Is there some thing out of an ABS Plastic

#11 sailman

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:07 PM

Just did a search for "J hooks" all I found was some structural stuff for builing, and something related to Hockey. Can someone provide a link.

BTW Thanks.



You can go to the Tylaska website or
from APS most of the way down the page.

Will Museler

#12 Foredeck Shuffle

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:07 PM

Clean up the area (boat prep) where the sheets travel, tape up, tie off, cover over, anything that the sheet might catch on.

And tie closer bowlines!

Lazy gits. B)


BTW, pointy end types hate flogging metal weapons and often find friendlier foredecks to inhabit.

#13 VMG Custom Sails

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:10 PM

equiplite rope schackles work great for attatching jib sheets. a little pricey though.

#14 Presuming Ed

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:12 PM

Just did a search for "J hooks" all I found was some structural stuff for builing, and something related to Hockey. Can someone provide a link.

BTW Thanks.



Either J locks: http://www.tylaska.com/jlock.htm

Posted Image


Or Sparcraft Sheet Locks

http://www.sparcraft...sheetlocks.html

Posted Image

(We use a cow hitch)

#15 chuso007

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:13 PM

Check this out:


http://www.t-ring.co.nz/


Looks like a good idea...

#16 NoStrings

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:13 PM

Well, you could have your foredeck person take the lazy sheet in hand and tractor it around the shrouds during your tack. It means that they have to step forward of the mast, which might not be a good thing depending upon how sensitive your boat is to a little weight forward.

#17 Monkey

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:16 PM

BTW, pointy end types hate flogging metal weapons and often find friendlier foredecks to inhabit.



Yes, yes we do. It only takes one time of getting hit in the head with one of those things to hate them forever. On a boat your size I wouldn't go to metal shackles. They're really convenient for attaching and reattaching sails, but not worth it for a smaller boat. They'll also scratch up your mast pretty good.

#18 Foredeck Shuffle

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:25 PM


BTW, pointy end types hate flogging metal weapons and often find friendlier foredecks to inhabit.

Yes, yes we do. It only takes one time of getting hit in the head with one of those things to hate them forever. On a boat your size I wouldn't go to metal shackles. They're really convenient for attaching and reattaching sails, but not worth it for a smaller boat. They'll also scratch up your mast pretty good.

This is true! And if you have a forward hatch, it'll scratch the begeezus out of it and take out pieces. They'll also tear up the deck and add extra wear on the turnbuckles.

I haven't raced on a boat under 40' that "needed" a shackle. Anyway, what's your bow person think? I bet they tie nifty knots, or if not, lotsa knots. B)

#19 Burnsy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:29 PM

I bet they tie nifty knots, or if not, lotsa knots. B)


If you can't tie 1 good one, tie 17 lousy ones.

#20 chuso007

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:30 PM



#21 trimmer

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:32 PM

Most of those shackles are expensive and heavy. We just double back the sheets and tie a Larks Head at the clew.

#22 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:39 PM

How about some thing like this

Attached Files



#23 Presuming Ed

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:43 PM

How about some thing like this



This?

Posted Image

http://www.t-ring.co.nz/

#24 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:46 PM

No metal

#25 Carboninit

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:50 PM

Thumb knot on a bite .We use to use this on the FD .Also used on big boats .Its light and wont take ya head off and is quick. Look it up.

#26 chuso007

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:53 PM

How about some thing like this



This?

Posted Image

http://www.t-ring.co.nz/



Shit, that's the pic I tried to post...

#27 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:54 PM

I had my most recent #1 built with the t-ring, and I like it. Tacks cleanly, and hardly more weight than a clew ring. I'll be using them for other headsails as they come up for replacement. But for now, the sail with the t-ring uses tapered and eyespliced sheets and the others just get bowlines, which means I need to change out the sheets for a headsail change. If I wasn't so cheap, or thought the other sails were worth it, I'd swap the old sails' clew rings out, too.

This is on a 30' boat, and the sailmaker added $90 bucks to cover the cost and installation.

#28 chuso007

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:57 PM

Now that I think of it, you canīt detach only one sheet with the T-ring. How would you change the headsail? You'd need a couple of spare sheets

#29 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:58 PM

Ok On the drawing I did, #1 you wount have to take the sail to a sailmaker to install the hardware. It should be fast and simple. I am just trying to throw out some ideas here. I use a bowline now, I do have everythig taped, and clear. But it always seems at the worst time in a race that the sheet will get caught on somthing. I think the worst is the old Butt Cleat. I do think that this could be made in Metal because it will be in the location of where the clew ring is aready installed. I do have a 130% genoa that doesn't even have a clew ring, It has strapping at the clew to tie onto.

BTW Do you know Curt from Pirates

#30 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:12 PM

What about these?

Posted Image

#31 SoAPieceOfStringWalksIntoABar...

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:12 PM

Now that I think of it, you canīt detach only one sheet with the T-ring. How would you change the headsail? You'd need a couple of spare sheets

If you think of the little loop as disposable (I make up a few each year from old bits of line), then you need one extra changing sheet. Tie it directly to the ring, and take up the load, and then cut the little loop. Attach the good sheets to the new sail clew and you're set. Their website talks about this, too. I do mostly buoy racing, so headsail peels are only a couple a year on the odd distance race we might do.



Ok On the drawing I did, #1 you wount have to take the sail to a sailmaker to install the hardware. It should be fast and simple. I am just trying to throw out some ideas here.

Imagine the sheet pulling hard on the center of your clew barb- it will rotate and pull the ring sideways, out of the plane of the sail. If it's a pressed ring, you're screwed. If webbed, only a little less screwed. The extra loop of string over both sides of the barb balances the load.

#32 Big Show

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:23 PM

The boat is only 20-28 feet people. There's no way any fitting is going to catch on your shrouds less than a continuous sheet. If it's a real issue you can strip the cover in that area to reduce weight and bulk.

Plus, there are numerous things the trimmer can do to ensure the headsail clew doesn't get caught on anything. Also, the bow can easily help as well if the trimmer can't wrap his/her head around it.

Learn to sail the boat this way, save some money, save the weight and go fast - win prizes.

#33 USAUS

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:29 PM

FUCKING HORRIBLE! Don't ever show those here again!

Knew someone who used them on kite sheets and braces and I've never seen so many flogging clews and tacks. They just don't hold.

Try the Tylaska spool shackles

http://www.tylaska.com/spool.htm

Excellent stuff, they make similar things for halyards too.

#34 sailingk8

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:48 PM


What about these?

Posted Image

What are those?

They look like robot nipple rings!

#35 Sailor_Buoy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:04 PM

Clean up the area (boat prep) where the sheets travel, tape up, tie off, cover over, anything that the sheet might catch on.

And tie closer bowlines!

Lazy gits. B)


BTW, pointy end types hate flogging metal weapons and often find friendlier foredecks to inhabit.


What he said!

Keep working on the knots - better than any mechanical device as they will never fatigue or fail (unless the line itself does) and do not become lethal projectiles for us aforementioned pointy end types :D

#36 Marco

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:13 PM

Try the Tylaska spool shackles
http://www.tylaska.com/spool.htm


I use Tylaska spool shackles on my Capri 25 and they work great. They're easy to change and almost never hang up.

#37 view at the front

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:27 PM

Keep it simple... bowline only... tight knots with enough tail to see that everything's OK. Be careful with the tails... had a bowman friend lose most of the vision in his right eye with a 4" tail while helping the sail around the baby stay.

#38 mustang__1

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:44 PM

what about equpilites? thats what im thinking of using on the 109.

#39 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:51 PM

I think that this is the best option yet, the larks head knot that is usally used is a pain in the ass to get off the clew if your in a hurry. This seems to be a good choice besides the Bowline. Where do you race your Capri 25?



Try the Tylaska spool shackles
http://www.tylaska.com/spool.htm


I use Tylaska spool shackles on my Capri 25 and they work great. They're easy to change and almost never hang up.



#40 boswell

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:53 PM

Tight bowlines with short tails. Get all of the slack out of the lazy sheet and the new winch loaded up before the tack. Bow dude needs to keep an eye on it through the tack. Trimmer needs to look forward and pay attention

#41 sirstopher

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:57 PM

Your search - equpilites - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.

#42 boatschit

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:09 PM

... schit guys, here I am telling you about my latest and greatest idea called that knot boot again and nobody's listening... :)

I came up with an idea of using a rubber or plastic cone shaped boot that slides onto your line and when you tie a knot, you can slide it over the knot. It keeps the knot from hanging up on schit. There needs to be several sizes for various size lines because different size lines make for different size knots.

All I need is someone who can make a million of the things so we can get them on the shelves...
I was hoping that New England Ropes or someone would help me out in this...

Are you guys here?

#43 dispursed

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:46 PM

i hate my spool shackles. they take forever to redo if you're changing the side for the spinnaker set, especially on cold winter days. i think retying bowlines would be faster.

the j-locks are pretty sweet, but very expensive and hard on the head.

the t-ring looks pretty cool for my next jib, i'll keep tying bowlins in the mean time. and cheap metal shackles for the spin.

#44 xstrapolator

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:00 PM

S,
Annapolis Performance Sailing carries equiplites, they are seriously expensive.

Boatschit,
Try some of the rubber boots that are made for large mueller clips. I have a few sitting on my desk that would easiliy slip over 10mm line.

#45 Jem

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:03 PM

for those who just say tie bowlines - how do you consistently line up a bowline with marks in the cockpit for preset trimming?

equiplites...



Posted Image

#46 JustDroppingBy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:04 PM

what about equpilites? thats what im thinking of using on the 109.

Equiplite's rock. There's a Mumm 30 here that uses them to attach jib sheets and after about one more time of getting nailed by those fucking metal Tylaska shackles on a tack, I'm going to cut them off and toss them overboard. We use the Equiplites for jib and main halyard shackles on our boat currently, and we are going to do jib sheets with them and maybe spin sheets, jury's still out on that one since there's no quick release feature to them.

#47 JustDroppingBy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:05 PM

S,
Annapolis Performance Sailing carries equiplites, they are seriously expensive.

Hall Spars sells them as well, no idea of the price difference if there is one. I was looking at Tylaska pricing a couple weeks ago for shackles and I didn't think there was too much difference between them?

#48 mcsailor

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:09 PM

chris, you can tie the bowlines so that they don't catch, you just have to tie them in the right 'direction' so that the tail isn't pointed in towards the stays. It isn't perfect but it works. On your boat I like to use continuous sheets with just useing the middle at the sail. works very well. let me know if you need help. I don't like using anything in the way of a clip b/c if you don't get hit in the head, it will break or come loose, not to mension the wieght on the clue in light air. Simple is best.

Justin

#49 Foredeck Shuffle

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:12 PM

for those who just say tie bowlines - how do you consistently line up a bowline with marks in the cockpit for preset trimming?

equiplites...
Posted Image

If it's my bow? I double palm it and tie. If I'm a trimmer, I can see what you are saying about the marks though as a trimmer, they are sort of basic guides but different winds, shear, waves, etc, will always change my trim outside of those marks.

On a few boats I have made a large black marker ring around the sheet on either end and always kept that at the steel ring in the clew to make sure the trimmer can work with marks.

Shackles on spins is no problem. Shackles on jibs?!? Not so much.

#50 Thanatos

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:16 PM

Don't forget Layline Loop Locks a little less pricy

Loop Locks

Similar concept to the Equiplite.

Thanatos

#51 PNWGuy

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:22 PM

FUCKING HORRIBLE! Don't ever show those here again!

Knew someone who used them on kite sheets and braces and I've never seen so many flogging clews and tacks. They just don't hold.

Try the Tylaska spool shackles

http://www.tylaska.com/spool.htm

Excellent stuff, they make similar things for halyards too.


I use spool shackles and am happy with them

#52 Jem

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:25 PM

Don't forget Layline Loop Locks a little less pricy

Loop Locks

Similar concept to the Equiplite.

Thanatos


they look nice - KISS

anyone else used them on a 40 footer?


J

#53 JJ-

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:56 PM


Don't forget Layline Loop Locks a little less pricy

Loop Locks

Similar concept to the Equiplite.

Thanatos


they look nice - KISS

anyone else used them on a 40 footer?


J


On a 30' or less boat, I'd go with the continuous jibsheet-stripped, if you can afford it. Otherwise, tight bowlines or larks head knots are great. As a former pointie and current jib trimmer, I echo the folks calling for better control from the back of the boat--makes sense.

On the Syd38, we use the J-locks on our little hankie of a jib. Works great, but there's no flogging to speak of. Ever.

My 2p

JJ

#54 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 12:18 AM

equiplites are probably the least snaggy. Yes, sometimes bowlines snag. We use bowlines (one for each sheet) because they don't hurt as bad as hardware, are inexpensive (free), and don't fall overboard when you need them. Stopped using single sheets in favor of split sheets. Makes it easier for sail changes and safer if you need to untangle a mess....never know when you'll need to get the lines off (although the big knife works in an emergency).

#55 Stepping on Kittens

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 09:30 PM

Make a strop from Amsteel or the like. Ring hitch the sheet to one end. The other uses a Tylaska Spool Shackle. Simple, neat, light and strong.

SoK

#56 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 09:49 PM

If you're going to use a knot then the Buntline hitch.

Heaps better than a bowline, strength is maintained and the knot won't come undone, its also smaller.

I now use it for all knots where I used to use a bowline.

On the jib halyard where its used to tie the spectra to a spring shackle the knot has almost bonded into itself from the pressure. Probably only way to undo is to cut. On 8mm jib sheets its not a problem.

#57 Greyhawk

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 11:48 PM

What about this?

Posted Image

(from http://cruisersforum....php?photo=1792)

#58 JaapvR

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 12:09 AM

Anyone using dyneema "loop-shackles"?

All you need is a small string with an eyesplice in one end, and a "ball" in the other. The ball should fit through the eye, and when the loop loads up, the splice tightens and the eye is pulled tight around the rope; ball doesn't fit through anymore...

#59 Elliot7

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Posted 06 March 2006 - 01:45 AM

The problem is not your knot, its your shrouds. What you need is to put a simple peice of PVC tubing over your shrouds. The tubing should be relativley small diamtere...3/4" and about 3 feet long, so they just sit at the bottom of the shroud where the knot catches. The bigger diameter, will mean the knot cannot catch....it also helps protect your sails, and if you do it right, it they look pretty good.

#60 DocHoliday

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:01 PM

The best wat to tie that knot is.......





















Drunk as a Scunk.......

#61 allpiss&wind

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:38 PM

Learn to splice your jibsheets, then use a dutch shackle. No metal, quick and easy to undo if you want to change it, won't come loose when the clew flogs. Seizing would probably work in place of a splice, but splicing is so much neater.

Combine this with a length of PVC on your forward shroud...

Sheets will still hang up, but no where near the same extent.

We've used this on our 28 footer for about 3 months now. Works great.

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#62 Sideways

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:41 PM

on my small boat I just doubled them, push the loop through the clew and then the line through that loop whatever thats called. I had sheets for every headsail..all two of them. Your sheets might be a little short for that. Smaller knot though but the fuckers will still get caught till you die.



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#63 Don

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 11:22 PM

Have used T-Rings on all headsails on my 36 footer for the last 8 months.

Work extremely well as they are easy to set up. The clew "cover" stops any damage to the mast when tacking, and nothing to get caught in rigging.
Headsail peels are simple, just use 1 dynema loop per sheet. Attach the port sheet first (if using the port Headsail foil track) then starboard sheet. When peeling sailing on starboard tack, simply undo the clew cover, remove the starboard (lazy) sheet, attach it to new headsail going up in port headsail foil groove, close clew cover. Tack. Drop old headsail detatch port sheet, attach it to new headsail. Done.




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