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French built J/105's


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#1 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:09 AM

From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?

#2 some dude

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:13 AM

Well the class has an excellent Technical Committee. I'm sure they'll come up with some kind of fair and equitable ruling that solves the problem in no time.

#3 GLAZE

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:28 AM

Don't see what the real problem is by letting a french built 105 race. Hell the 80's let french built boats race and they are actually ISAF recognized unlike the 105.

#4 scowlover

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:29 AM

Can you take a long board and reshape the french 105 to fit the american shape?

#5 TheBoathouse

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:33 AM

Well the class has an excellent Technical Committee. I'm sure they'll come up with some kind of fair and equitable ruling that solves the problem in no time.


that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.....maybe they'll measure them with a wooden stick, a pencil and a roll of masking tape like they measure headstay lengths... :lol:

#6 some dude

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:38 AM


Well the class has an excellent Technical Committee. I'm sure they'll come up with some kind of fair and equitable ruling that solves the problem in no time.


that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.....maybe they'll measure them with a wooden stick, a pencil and a roll of masking tape like they measure headstay lengths... :lol:



And let one of the boat's own crew be the guy up the mast holding the other end of the measuring tape.
"Yeah sure I'm holding it in the middle of the pin."

Note; the above is an example only. I've never actually seen it done. At least not a boat I as on.

#7 SoCalSlacker

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:02 AM

Don't see what the real problem is by letting a french built 105 race. Hell the 80's let french built boats race and they are actually ISAF recognized unlike the 105.


From what I've heard the 80 class is having some serious issues with differneces between the french and US boats. I can't recall the exact differences (I think the mast is different for one), but I've heard from a few different people that the french boats are faster.

#8 Mid

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:11 AM

but I've heard from a few different people that the french boats are faster.



' Heresy ' :P

#9 Guest Anarchist bermuda_guy_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:27 AM

but I've heard from a few different people that the french boats are faster.



' Heresy ' :P


The french boats come with comfort group, wheel, deep keel, etc. as standard equipment. The mast is different (tracks). The french boats are designed for offshore racing (larger fuel tank, better layout down below. The boat that just won race week down here was an american 105 and it was against both american and french boats. :)

#10 Guest Anarchist JetRink_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:35 AM

The French built boats have a different rig because of insurance/safety underwriting. It's a sectional rig as oppossed to a continuous extrusion as built here in the states. It's stiffer and beefier (It's windy over there). Although the hulls are the same (US and French), they are outfitted differently. It all boils down to two different standards for outfitting the same hull.

"Let it go, Jake. It's Chinatown".

#11 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:01 PM

The J80 class has had some doozies as well when it has come to French vs US boats. French boats has shorter stanchions which were not only more comfortable for shorter people, allowed normal size people to hike harder. I am not sure what the rules are now, but initially US boats were not allowed to cut the stanchions down to the french height. Meantime French built boats were class legal.

So what was class legal for some boats was illegal for others. There were a few other issues as well concerning the differences between them. Many people believed the french boats were faster.

#12 RCH

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:04 PM

Do they have the " Masquerade Bow " or are they square like the way they come out of J/boat's RI?

#13 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:36 PM

ah yes, another thinly veiled attempt by the ed to trash j boats over an absurd non-issue, and to pimp his precious FT10........

it does get a bit tiring ed........

#14 ZAR

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:38 PM

Must resist….

must be strong…

must not use this opportunity to recycle a lot of French jokes, to fit this occasion… for once I am NOT going to come up with a bunch of bad puns and French stereotype put downs…. The French wise ass remarks are starting to well up inside me….but I know that if I start, I will not be able to stop…. Must be strong!!

#15 Nantucket Red

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:49 PM

ah yes, another thinly veiled attempt by the ed to trash j boats over an absurd non-issue, and to pimp his precious FT10........

it does get a bit tiring ed........



VERY Tiring......

#16 US32Wet

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 12:50 PM

From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?



There I was vowing that I would never diss the 105's again, as it is boring and they are so easily bated.

You have to feel sorry for anyone that has invested that much in a OD just to find that they didn't really buy an OD. We've had it all before on the East Coast, the whole deep versus shallow keel, the different size sails, tiller, wheel and interiors.

Other classes seem to be able to build boats all the way round the world without them being outside the tolerances of the OD, so why can't J-boats, there again it seems they can't even build them the same in the US for any length of time!

Maybe Mr Johnstone will pony up and fix all the problems this time, but somehow I doubt it.

#17 ZAR

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:00 PM

Yes, I could make some smart assed comments, about the French 105s being faster down wind, cause the French are good at running, or that they get better engine performance, because they have a Peugeot engine that runs on body odor…. But lets grow up!

#18 Guest Anarchist LSTripp26_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:05 PM


From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?



There I was vowing that I would never diss the 105's again, as it is boring and they are so easily bated.

You have to feel sorry for anyone that has invested that much in a OD just to find that they didn't really buy an OD. We've had it all before on the East Coast, the whole deep versus shallow keel, the different size sails, tiller, wheel and interiors.

Other classes seem to be able to build boats all the way round the world without them being outside the tolerances of the OD, so why can't J-boats, there again it seems they can't even build them the same in the US for any length of time!

Maybe Mr Johnstone will pony up and fix all the problems this time, but somehow I doubt it.


In Annapolis the Fleet just voted in January to allow the French 105s to race OD. The shoal keel was a product of the local J dealers shallow docking arrangement.

I have only been racing in the 105s for 2 years and it still amazes me how growed professional men can argue over small insignicant BS! A cam cleat here, a adjustable car there, a smooth bottom! you would think they would want to make their underpowered "Optis for Adults" faster.

#19 Guest Anarchist bermuda_guy_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:06 PM

Perhaps the Ed has never sailed one of these boats.

Politics and rules aside, these boats are fun to sail.

#20 pep

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:11 PM

Boring J-boat bashing. Nothing wrong with the j-boats. Maybe just a bit boring, but so what.
Problem is that sailinganarchy (the ed) can tolerate everything but boredom. Might be a midlife crisis thing.

#21 Guest Anarchist LSTripp26_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 01:31 PM

Boring J-boat bashing. Nothing wrong with the j-boats. Maybe just a bit boring, but so what.
Problem is that sailinganarchy (the ed) can tolerate everything but boredom. Might be a midlife crisis thing.


I'm enjoying sailing 105s. I like the boats. it's the owners that are clueless

#22 Nantucket Red

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:28 PM


Boring J-boat bashing. Nothing wrong with the j-boats. Maybe just a bit boring, but so what.
Problem is that sailinganarchy (the ed) can tolerate everything but boredom. Might be a midlife crisis thing.


I'm enjoying sailing 105s. I like the boats. it's the owners that are clueless


I wouldn't be so quick to lump all owners in the "clueless" category, champ.

#23 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:35 PM

ah yes, another thinly veiled attempt by the ed to trash j boats over an absurd non-issue, and to pimp his precious FT10........

it does get a bit tiring ed........


Non-issue? Pimping the FT? Thank you for finally confirming that you are an idiot.

And yes, I've sailed them. They are dull, at least in typical San Diego conditions.

#24 -TG

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:36 PM

Perhaps the Ed has never sailed one of these boats.

Politics and rules aside, these boats are fun to sail.



???????????????????

#25 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:43 PM


ah yes, another thinly veiled attempt by the ed to trash j boats over an absurd non-issue, and to pimp his precious FT10........

it does get a bit tiring ed........


Thank you for finally confirming that you are an idiot.


Ah yes....when you resort to petty name calling, its a certainty that you've lost your argument

#26 -TG

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:49 PM

Well then,

Here is your official invite to come sail them in 25-40 knot conditions out on the right coast (and if the wind is only 5 - 10, at least you will be in Bermuda enjoying smog free sun). :P :P



its all fun in 25-40... its in the 5-10 where you start wondering why such a heavy boat doesn't have a 155 and has such a small kite. ok stop there... all the arguments have been made and have been posted 10x over. truce! you like them... good for you. I'll say nothing more.

#27 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:51 PM

Let's see, a guy who has the name Moron in his handle, who throws factually incorrect info in his bullshit post is lecturing me?

Let me say it again, you're an idiot. Now drop it and move on.

#28 chicagosailor62

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:56 PM

We discussed this locally so that our fleet leaders could take it back to the national class. Basically the french boats are not like us 105s at all. It would be horrible for our OD racing to allowing boats that diffrent into the class.

#29 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 02:57 PM

Let's see, a guy who has the name Moron in his handle, who throws factually incorrect info in his bullshit post is lecturing me?

somehow i doubt anyone lectures you, unless you are talking to the mirror......

#30 Smallboatsailor001

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:03 PM

Some good points about the class as a whole.

Some lousy 3rd grade bickering by the editor. Shame

#31 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:07 PM

Shame? Okay sure.

#32 Delta Blues

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:08 PM

Have there been any earlier models of "one-design" J/boats that were not alike?

#33 SoCalSlacker

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:09 PM

J/35R

#34 Guest Anarchist awest_*

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:10 PM


ah yes, another thinly veiled attempt by the ed to trash j boats over an absurd non-issue, and to pimp his precious FT10........

it does get a bit tiring ed........



VERY Tiring......


I totally disagree. Completely fair subject to bash jboats on. I can empathize with this guy. I bought a french built j105 after being assured by jboats that it was the exact same boat as a us built j105. Now that i've read this guy's ordeal, i can see that i won't be able to bring my boat home with me when i go back stateside (unless, ofcourse,i want to own it for life). ever get the feeling you've been had? i sure do. what a sham.

#35 Harnesscreek

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:18 PM

J/24's built in Italy in the early 90's

#36 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:31 PM

MON DIEU!

Moi bateau c'est nons illegal???

Tellez Le Gendarme! Tellez Inspector Clousseau!

Storme La Bastille! Settez Joerge en fuego!

Via La France!

#37 some dude

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 03:35 PM

MON DIEU!

Moi bateau c'est nons illegal???

Tellez Le Gendarme! Tellez Inspector Clousseau!

Storme La Bastille! Settez Joerge en fuego!

Via La France!




word

#38 knuckles

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:02 PM

We discussed this locally so that our fleet leaders could take it back to the national class. Basically the french boats are not like us 105s at all. It would be horrible for our OD racing to allowing boats that diffrent into the class.


Is it just the mast that you are concerned about? Or is it also the extra 100lbs of lead in the keel?

#39 Colin

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:14 PM


MON DIEU!

Moi bateau c'est nons illegal???

Tellez Le Gendarme! Tellez Inspector Clousseau!

Storme La Bastille! Settez Joerge en fuego!

Via La France!




word

mot.

#40 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:16 PM

We discussed this locally so that our fleet leaders could take it back to the national class. Basically the french boats are not like us 105s at all. It would be horrible for our OD racing to allowing boats that diffrent into the class.




Well, ah......

Do you think hull numbers 1 through 10 are different?

Do you think hull numbers 11-155 are different?

Do you think the manufacturer works to tolerances of 5mm for rudder clearance?

Do you think all the keels come out of the mold at the same weight?

Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Class TC?

#41 inquiring Mind

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:16 PM


We discussed this locally so that our fleet leaders could take it back to the national class. Basically the french boats are not like us 105s at all. It would be horrible for our OD racing to allowing boats that diffrent into the class.


Is it just the mast that you are concerned about? Or is it also the extra 100lbs of lead in the keel?



Maybe you J-105'ers would like the PHRF committee to give the technical committee some help on this issue?

#42 sf segler

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:19 PM

I can certainly understand the concern regarding 100 lbs. difference in the keel but what makes anyone think that the US built boats are built consistently? Look at the weigh in list for the J105 SF fleet for a little entertainment!

http://sfj105.org/co...Weights2006.htm

#43 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:20 PM

could someone in the know please state the differences between a French 105 and a Rhode Island 105 w/o all this other extraneaous bullshit?

#44 sumpin

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:21 PM

MON DIEU!

Moi bateau c'est nons illegal???

Tellez Le Gendarme! Tellez Inspector Clousseau!

Storme La Bastille! Settez Joerge en fuego!

Via La France!


and other words read above like "truce""empathize""ordeal"



all good french, like I give up

#45 knuckles

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:28 PM

I can certainly understand the concern regarding 100 lbs. difference in the keel but what makes anyone think that the US built boats are built consistently? Look at the weigh in list for the J105 SF fleet for a little entertainment!

http://sfj105.org/co...Weights2006.htm


Nice plot. Old boats rule.

#46 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:29 PM



We discussed this locally so that our fleet leaders could take it back to the national class. Basically the french boats are not like us 105s at all. It would be horrible for our OD racing to allowing boats that diffrent into the class.


Is it just the mast that you are concerned about? Or is it also the extra 100lbs of lead in the keel?



Maybe you J-105'ers would like the PHRF committee to give the technical committee some help on this issue?



I thought they were already......

#47 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:34 PM

could someone in the know please state the differences between a French 105 and a Rhode Island 105 w/o all this other extraneaous bullshit?



Les Sheet of ze bull?????

#48 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:38 PM

could someone in the know please state the differences between a French 105 and a Rhode Island 105 w/o all this other extraneaous bullshit?

nstead of a head, there is a bidet....

#49 ZAR

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:39 PM

what's not quite as important as a tornado in a coffee pot?

Attached Files



#50 TheBoathouse

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 05:05 PM

Have there been any earlier models of "one-design" J/boats that were not alike?


J-29s
J-30s
J-35s
J-40s

#51 Delta Blues

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 05:16 PM


Have there been any earlier models of "one-design" J/boats that were not alike?


J-29s
J-30s
J-35s
J-40s



My question was actually rhetorical. Don't forget the guy in Detroit who I think has a J/125 who keeps complaining that the J/125's are rated differently and not as one-design. J/boats have a history of making boats that are not alike.

It isn't anything new, nor is it unique to J/boats. The Sunfish and Lasers are about as pure one-design as things get. If you are in the business to make money, then you need to offer "flexibility" when owners are shelling out more than $10,000 for a new boat. Whether it is electronics, sails, hardware, etc. Once this occurs, no two boats end up being alike. They can be "close" but they are not alike. Eventually, the original engines get replaced, some try to save weight and move to a lighter engine, others want additional power and get a heavier engine. And as time progresses, the more the boats become different.

What is the answer to assuring boats are "one-design" versus "one hull shape?" I don't know!

#52 NeverIn

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 05:16 PM

[/quote]
Maybe you J-105'ers would like the PHRF committee to give the technical committee some help on this issue?
[/quote]

good inquiry, mind :D

#53 FUNK

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:01 PM


This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?

105's suck. Go A Class Scow instead !

:-)



They have differnt spars and they are lighter. The foils are at a better starting point for fairing. They still need a lot of squaring up from the water line down.

#54 cbags

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:02 PM

could someone in the know please state the differences between a French 105 and a Rhode Island 105 w/o all this other extraneaous bullshit?


I agre..can we get a run down of details, or is it JUST the mast?

#55 FUNK

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:15 PM

Perhaps the Ed has never sailed one of these boats.

Politics and rules aside, these boats are fun to sail.



So are fat women until your friends bust you!

#56 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:15 PM

holy shit, i've never heard of a OD class using masts from different manufacturers.....except for most of the olympic classes.....

#57 Pants on Fire

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:29 PM

Here's my 2 cents... I have just bought a french built J/105 (Coming to South Africa) and as far as I can tell the main differences are the mast (sparcraft) engine (volvo) interior layout (not fundamentally different from the US "euro" layout and that some of the other equipment like hatches (gebo). The hatch in the head is deleted as the portlights can open. The engine controls are mounted on the rhs of the wheel and the wheel itself is by Whitlock and not Edson.
I have seen US boats with the standard layout, euro layout and even a few that have the nav table aft and the galley forward. I can't believe that with all these differences the US committee can be that uptight about the French boats. As far as I can see the French boats are far more like each other than the US ones! There is only one layout, they all have wheel's, deep draft, they are all SCRIMP etc etc.
The poor guy wanting to get his French built boat legalised should just ship the thing back to France and sell it there! Its not like he is winning regattas right and left, why all the fuss.
I am no expert on this, but wouldn't a stiffer mast be a disadvantage? As far as I can see from all the tuning guides, the rigs are set up very "soft" to allow some flexibility - wouldnt a stiffer mast be a bad thing?
What happened if Yanmar discontinued the engine in the US boats or if Edson suddenly went out of business - life goes on.
The J/22 was also built in the US (2 different builders), South Africa, Italy and there are differences too. Our local boats have had 3 or 4 different mast manufacturers and I see that the new US boats have a totally different interior design. Gone are the 2 planks of wood and now there are two moulded in "tanks" for seats. Teak toerails gone, moulded in toerails in.
I think that anyone who whines about small differences like that should sell his boat and get one of the newer "better" ones. I'm sure their results will be the same. A good sailer will beat you with a heavier, dirtier boat with worn out sails if he is better than you - then he is better. To the really great sailors (which I am not) equipment seems to matter less than pure skill.
Out of interest we had a guy here order his J/22 with a clear gelcoat so that he could be sure the builder put all the balsa in or so he says... (looks like a wooden parquet floor if you ask me) At the time I remember all sorts of complaints like clear gelcoat was lighter than white etc etc. All BS.
I think that there will always be differences between boats if they are in production long enough. And isn't a long production a sign of a well liked boat?

PS this is my first post so cut me some slack. Cheers.

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#58 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:38 PM

Here's my 2 cents... I have just bought a french built J/105


Oh, so now you are trying to confuse the issue with real facts.....


don't bother...

the only "fact" that matters is that the Ed has a case of the ass for Jboats.....you can set your watch by the reqularity that he puts some diss on the Johnstones on the front page...

#59 sailman

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:45 PM

J/35R

J35s also had some differences in deck layouts and interior options. Nothing like the J105s or J29s though.

Will Museler

#60 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:46 PM


From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?


Over priced? Beneteau 36.7's are in a similar range and what I hear is that they fall apart. My friend's 44.7's mast BENT in relativly modest air. From my experience, J's and 105's are all solid as a rock.

Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. Yeah, with class sails it is underpowered, but that's only true up to about 10-12 knots. Above that a 105 is best described as a sweet fun to sail machine.

There are a few boats with totally redone hulls. Does that ruin the entire fleet. The fleet is moving toward a class weight rule. The officiers are all gentlemen. The measurer is an engineer for Pete's sake. He definitely does an excellent job figuring out how to solve problems. In general this is a good group to be part of.

Grow Up.


Grow up? You "hear" the 36.7's fall apart? Show some proof, otherwise drop your bullshit allegations. I'm no huge fan of the 36.7, but it is way more boat for the dollar, so you seemingly know little of what you talk about.

That you are a fan of the 105 is no particular sin, but they are indeed very average performing and way overpriced. That you don't like those facts is not my concern.

#61 jdougherty

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:56 PM

Wow, Ed defending the 36.7, cool.

#62 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:58 PM


Here's my 2 cents... I have just bought a french built J/105


Oh, so now you are trying to confuse the issue with real facts.....


don't bother...

the only "fact" that matters is that the Ed has a case of the ass for Jboats.....you can set your watch by the reqularity that he puts some diss on the Johnstones on the front page...


I gave the J/109 a very nice review. My first impressions of the J/65 were very favorable. We just sponsored the J/24 Nationals, for christ's sake!

I'm going to say this once and once only: I'm not here to put up with your nonsense. If you say one more innacurate, bullshit comment about me, I'll boot your fucking ass right out of here. End of story.

#63 Pants on Fire

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 06:59 PM

Seems like even Beneteau have a problem with this whole French / US thing...

http://www.rcryachts...67comments2.htm

"Interior: A few key items here are worth noting. The boat displayed at the shows is French-built and has two equal sized aft cabins. The standard US configuration will be unequal aft cabins, one double and one single."

"Changes: The deck on the first few French boats has an emergency tiller cover which stands a bit too high, and this will be changed on the US boats."

Also I found an article where the Ed actually praises the J/109 over the 36.7 so there is proof that he likes J/Boats!

http://www.sailingan...eneteau36_7.htm

"Here, the J-109, with lighter weight and significantly bigger asymmetric kites, should have a big advantage."
"By comparison, the J-109, at one foot shorter weighs about 1,000 pounds less, with a slighter longer waterline."

#64 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 07:01 PM


From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?


Over priced? Beneteau 36.7's are in a similar range and what I hear is that they fall apart. My friend's 44.7's mast BENT in relativly modest air. From my experience, J's and 105's are all solid as a rock.

Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. Yeah, with class sails it is underpowered, but that's only true up to about 10-12 knots. Above that a 105 is best described as a sweet fun to sail machine.

There are a few boats with totally redone hulls. Does that ruin the entire fleet. The fleet is moving toward a class weight rule. The officiers are all gentlemen. The measurer is an engineer for Pete's sake. He definitely does an excellent job figuring out how to solve problems. In general this is a good group to be part of.

Grow Up.


Are as dumb as you appear to be or did you have to work at it??????

You wouldn't know an "excellent job" if it was giving you a lap dance.

STFU and go away.

Now.

Mon Dieu!!!!!

#65 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 07:14 PM



Here's my 2 cents... I have just bought a french built J/105


Oh, so now you are trying to confuse the issue with real facts.....


don't bother...

the only "fact" that matters is that the Ed has a case of the ass for Jboats.....you can set your watch by the reqularity that he puts some diss on the Johnstones on the front page...


I gave the J/109 a very nice review. My first impressions of the J/65 were very favorable. We just sponsored the J/24 Nationals, for christ's sake!

I'm going to say this once and once only: I'm not here to put up with your nonsense. If you say one more innacurate, bullshit comment about me, I'll boot your fucking ass right out of here. End of story.



Toss their asses out.

They are crude and are not gentlemen.......

#66 Jambalaya

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 07:43 PM

Now I'm revved up .. this thread has some of the most crass shit I've seen on this forum

facts - french built hulls, keel and rudder are identical to the US boats in terms of design - the deck is the same in all important regards, positioning of tracks, winches, turning blocks etc etc

The only significant difference is in the RIG - French boats have a sparcraft rig

The Sparcraft rig is materially different from the US hall rig - it is much thicker in section above the top spreaders (someone can tell me the name of that bit - hounds ??)

The Sparcraft rig has masthead and fraction kite halyards - the UK and French J105 OD rules set the size of the kite at 95sq mtr (IRC measurement method) and not where you fly it from. Frac boats have shorter fatter kites and masthead longer thinner ones

We race OD here in the UK & France - French vs US built - best sailed boats win - we have apportioned no performance difference to location of build or even masthead vs frac (although on this latter point I understand the theory that the masthead is faster even though the area of the kite is the same)

All the bollocks about the rationale for this being wind strengh is horse-shit - it's plenty windy in San Fran

The interior layout makes no difference to performance

Neither does the fact the the French boats have an anchor locker or any other minor mods

I can understand the reluctance of the US class to allow French boats due to the difference in the masts - our experience is it makes no difference - you could even argue that with greater weight aloft the French boats are worse off

Over the winter my boat was parked up next to a US built boat - you can really see the spar differences - wish I'd taken a photo now.

PS Ed - clearly your posts do not fall into the crass-shit category, just in case you were considering booting me !

I made a quick edit US for UK above but I think the meaning was clear originally

#67 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 07:56 PM

Now I'm revved up .. this thread has some of the most crass shit I've seen on this forum

facts - french built hulls, keel and rudder are identical to the US boats in terms of design - the deck is the same in all important regards, positioning of tracks, winches, turning blocks etc etc

The only significant difference is in the RIG - French boats have a sparcraft rig

The Sparcraft rig is materially different from the US hall rig - it is much thicker in section above the top spreaders (someone can tell me the name of that bit - hounds ??)

The Sparcraft rig has masthead and fraction kite halyards - the UK and French J105 OD rules set the size of the kite at 95sq mtr (IRC measurement method) and not where you fly it from. Frac boats have shorter fatter kites and masthead longer thinner ones

We race OD here in the UK & France - French vs US built - best sailed boats win - we have apportioned no performance difference to location of build or even masthead vs frac (although on this latter point I understand the theory that the masthead is faster even though the area of the kite is the same)

All the bollocks about the rationale for this being wind strengh is horse-shit - it's plenty windy in San Fran

The interior layout makes no difference to performance

Neither does the fact the the French boats have an anchor locker or any other minor mods

I can understand the reluctance of the UK class to allow French boats due to the difference in the masts - our experience is it makes no difference - you could even argue that with greater weight aloft the French boats are worse off

Over the winter my boat was parked up next to a US built boat - you can really see the spar differences - wish I'd taken a photo now.

PS Ed - clearly your posts do not fall into the crass-shit category, just in case you were considering booting me !


Thanks you.

On another note, IRC currently doesn't recognize J-105s as a OD as the weight differences are to much to overlook, even between boats built next to one another

#68 jdougherty

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:00 PM

Now I'm revved up .. this thread has some of the most crass shit I've seen on this forum

facts - french built hulls, keel and rudder are identical to the US boats in terms of design - the deck is the same in all important regards, positioning of tracks, winches, turning blocks etc etc

The only significant difference is in the RIG - French boats have a sparcraft rig

The Sparcraft rig is materially different from the US hall rig - it is much thicker in section above the top spreaders (someone can tell me the name of that bit - hounds ??)

The Sparcraft rig has masthead and fraction kite halyards - the UK and French J105 OD rules set the size of the kite at 95sq mtr (IRC measurement method) and not where you fly it from. Frac boats have shorter fatter kites and masthead longer thinner ones

We race OD here in the UK & France - French vs US built - best sailed boats win - we have apportioned no performance difference to location of build or even masthead vs frac (although on this latter point I understand the theory that the masthead is faster even though the area of the kite is the same)

All the bollocks about the rationale for this being wind strengh is horse-shit - it's plenty windy in San Fran

The interior layout makes no difference to performance

Neither does the fact the the French boats have an anchor locker or any other minor mods

I can understand the reluctance of the UK class to allow French boats due to the difference in the masts - our experience is it makes no difference - you could even argue that with greater weight aloft the French boats are worse off

Over the winter my boat was parked up next to a US built boat - you can really see the spar differences - wish I'd taken a photo now.

PS Ed - clearly your posts do not fall into the crass-shit category, just in case you were considering booting me !



Well sail, on that note this thread should die.

Now I'm revved up .. this thread has some of the most crass shit I've seen on this forum

facts - french built hulls, keel and rudder are identical to the US boats in terms of design - the deck is the same in all important regards, positioning of tracks, winches, turning blocks etc etc

The only significant difference is in the RIG - French boats have a sparcraft rig

The Sparcraft rig is materially different from the US hall rig - it is much thicker in section above the top spreaders (someone can tell me the name of that bit - hounds ??)

The Sparcraft rig has masthead and fraction kite halyards - the UK and French J105 OD rules set the size of the kite at 95sq mtr (IRC measurement method) and not where you fly it from. Frac boats have shorter fatter kites and masthead longer thinner ones

We race OD here in the UK & France - French vs US built - best sailed boats win - we have apportioned no performance difference to location of build or even masthead vs frac (although on this latter point I understand the theory that the masthead is faster even though the area of the kite is the same)

All the bollocks about the rationale for this being wind strengh is horse-shit - it's plenty windy in San Fran

The interior layout makes no difference to performance

Neither does the fact the the French boats have an anchor locker or any other minor mods

I can understand the reluctance of the UK class to allow French boats due to the difference in the masts - our experience is it makes no difference - you could even argue that with greater weight aloft the French boats are worse off

Over the winter my boat was parked up next to a US built boat - you can really see the spar differences - wish I'd taken a photo now.

PS Ed - clearly your posts do not fall into the crass-shit category, just in case you were considering booting me !



Well said, on that note this thread should die.

#69 Jambalaya

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:02 PM

Lesbian R is correct IRC calls them SISTERSHIPS rather than strict ODs

#70 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:11 PM

I'm going to say this once and once only: I'm not here to put up with your nonsense. If you say one more innacurate, bullshit comment about me, I'll boot your fucking ass right out of here. End of story.

kick me out if you must....

but, I'll stand on my central point......

its not breaking news that a large OD class has more than one mast in use, or that the weights of the boats differ.....or that the class has some "volunteers" who make foolish statements.....

it seems to be more than regular fare to dump on the 105 class.....i'm no big fan, but it certainly doesn't seem balanced reporting


PS. yes you did write a decent review of the 109 and 65

#71 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:16 PM

Balanced reporting? Are you kidding? When has this site ever given one shit about that?

Dude, give it a rest.

#72 Right Coast

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:18 PM

I'm not going to rag on the boat, I'll save that for another time. But this issue with the poor guy having to wait over a year for someone to decide whether his "one-design" boat is class legal speaks very poorly for the class management.

#73 eichter

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:20 PM

JBoats ain't the fastest or the coolest, but they have continually provided excellent OD racing with decent fleet numbers. True, their many successful fleets have seen controversy. So their appeal isnt' that they are crazy fast. In fact most sailboats - high perf skiffs excluded - are pigs. If you jump on a decent windsurfer in the Bay Area or anywhere else where 20+ kts is common, you'll quickly see that most sailboats are slow.

This forum has a love affair with that praises FT 10 at the expense of all things J that is laughable. Specially the San Diego crowd. Despite how cool your boat is, how powered up it is, you'll still be stuck sailing in 6-12 kts of wind at high angles in a desperate attempt to keep the chute from collapsing. "Ready to jibe, hold got to heat it up to close-hauled get the foot of the chute out of the water, whoops, walk that chute around." Face it sport boats are cool in high winds. SD has seen the birth and death of many sportboats - some much more "anarchy" than the FT10. Some even had traps, that you could barely use in SD.

FT10 fans in SD. Cancel your orders, buy 1 1/2 Rocket 22 apiece, remove the sprit and get a fleet going that may actually reach a leeward mark.

#74 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:24 PM

I would not say that the class is managed very well, but I only sail on the boat, so do not feel qualified to pass judgement on that (except for the story of 'some guy' winning a protest after being black flagged because he didn't think he was over early...that is abso-fucking-lutely baffling), but when you act surprised that a J-Boat salesman lied to you about something then maybe you are not so very smart. Yacht brokers are typically pretty sleezy untrustworthy people...and sure, that J-105 can go 30 knots, will hold every penny of its value for resale, will never need to serviced, can fly, will get you laid, can do your taxes, knows who shot Kennedy, and is up for induction as the keelboat for the next Olympics, now fork over the deposit genius.

#75 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:28 PM

Balanced reporting? Are you kidding?

my point exactly,

and with that i will rest my case.

#76 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:36 PM

That wasn't your point. Your point was that I always bash J/Boats, and I easily refuted that. Of course you know that we often take shots at a number of targets, yet you now claim that we are not balanced? We've never pretended to be, so to introduce it as an argument is a spurious "case" at best.

It is easy to see why so many people here hate you.

#77 BIAM

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:44 PM

It is easy to see why so many people here hate you.

well then, we have something in common....

#78 Editor

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 08:47 PM

Like I said, you're an idiot. One more word to me from you again and you're gone.

#79 TeamFugu

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:22 PM

Ed and BIAM, you should make a thread for your own little shit fight. Hijacking this thread dones neither of you any good.

Now for the real issue. I used to have a J24. To my knowlege J Boats has had a hard time getting the keels straight and the mast in line with the keel for a long time. I loved mine but they can't seem to be very consistent in getting it all right soooo, IMHO I think to hold a J Boat to any kind of strict OD rule is silly. Who cares if one guy spends months with a stick and some sand paper. One blown tack or blown set till take it all away.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my J24 and the only reason I did not get another one when I had a chance is that there weren't any sailing or available in my area anymore. Since the builder can't keep the construction consistent, to expect 5mm tolerances is down right silly. Stop the shit fights over if it has a wheel or a tiller or even worse who makes the wheel, get over it and learn to sail the boats. Most people that I have seen push the rules hard, can only win with thier rules.

It's a great leadmine for hell sakes. 100 lbs. off yor ass will make more difference than out of the keel.

#80 sodajerk

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:38 PM

"Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. ""





I don't dispute the 17.5kt boat speed, but outrunning the boats you listed? Did they have their sails up? Outrunning the J/109 perhaps...but the others? Are you sure?

Unnecessary voluntary disclosure...I am a J/105 sailor...not bashing the boat at all, but outrunning a J/44 and a Mumm 36?

It must have been a J/105 with a tiller...everyone know they are the fast ones.

#81 Jambalaya

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:48 PM

J44 kind of cruisey (not sure ?) - no planing/surfing - my gut feel is the 105 would be faster in a blow
Mumm 36 etc - perhaps it was little bit reachy - also the stability of the J105 under kite versus symetrical boats can help a lot when it's blowing - broaching is not fast

#82 Cable-Layer

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:51 PM

"Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. ""





I don't dispute the 17.5kt boat speed, but outrunning the boats you listed? Did they have their sails up? Outrunning the J/109 perhaps...but the others? Are you sure?

Unnecessary voluntary disclosure...I am a J/105 sailor...not bashing the boat at all, but outrunning a J/44 and a Mumm 36?

It must have been a J/105 with a tiller...everyone know they are the fast ones.



Soda,
Where've you been? Taking the trip with us this weekend? Delivering the 105 to it's home.
CL

#83 sodajerk

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:58 PM

J44 kind of cruisey (not sure ?) - no planing/surfing - my gut feel is the 105 would be faster in a blow
Mumm 36 etc - perhaps it was little bit reachy - also the stability of the J105 under kite versus symetrical boats can help a lot when it's blowing - broaching is not fast




I guess that is what I was questioning...what were the conditions? When Bee said "outrunning" I assumed an actual downhill run. We have blown past lots of bigger faster boats many times, but it's usually because of some fundamental difference...hot angle...big breeze...blast reach...etc. where the bigger faster guys were not necessarily carrying their optimal sail selection.

#84 suider

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:59 PM

Out of interest we had a guy here order his J/22 with a clear gelcoat so that he could be sure the builder put all the balsa in or so he says... (looks like a wooden parquet floor if you ask me)


i find this to be one of the more interesting things in this thread... that j/22 is bizarre looking!!!

wow, a little tweaked, is he? make sure they put all the balsa in?!? wow..

thx for that post... (all of it, i liked your comparo on the 105's too)

/c

#85 sodajerk

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:00 PM


"Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. ""





I don't dispute the 17.5kt boat speed, but outrunning the boats you listed? Did they have their sails up? Outrunning the J/109 perhaps...but the others? Are you sure?

Unnecessary voluntary disclosure...I am a J/105 sailor...not bashing the boat at all, but outrunning a J/44 and a Mumm 36?

It must have been a J/105 with a tiller...everyone know they are the fast ones.



Soda,
Where've you been? Taking the trip with us this weekend? Delivering the 105 to it's home.
CL



Working, working, and more working...have to work hard now so that we can play hard over the coming months...or something to that effect.
I'm in NYC this weekend...wish I was on the water though.
Have fun.

#86 DoRag

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:09 PM




From the front page...

Sacre Bleu!

We don't have a particular hard on for J/105's, in fact we are impressed that J/Boats has been able to sell so many of such an overpriced, underperformer and make it work as a very successful OD. There are problems however, not the least of which is the fairing controversy (see Round and Round below).

This may be old news to some, but we are seeing that French built J/105's aren't the same as US built boats and aren't race legal? The differences between the two are fairly substantial. Where is this issue at and what do you guys think about it?


Over priced? Beneteau 36.7's are in a similar range and what I hear is that they fall apart. My friend's 44.7's mast BENT in relativly modest air. From my experience, J's and 105's are all solid as a rock.

Underperformer? How about 17.5 knots through the water with a 1.25 following current for 18.75 SOG while outrunning a J44, J109, C&C121, Mumm36, and a Tripp 37. Yeah, with class sails it is underpowered, but that's only true up to about 10-12 knots. Above that a 105 is best described as a sweet fun to sail machine.

There are a few boats with totally redone hulls. Does that ruin the entire fleet. The fleet is moving toward a class weight rule. The officiers are all gentlemen. The measurer is an engineer for Pete's sake. He definitely does an excellent job figuring out how to solve problems. In general this is a good group to be part of.

Grow Up.


Are as dumb as you appear to be or did you have to work at it??????

You wouldn't know an "excellent job" if it was giving you a lap dance.

STFU and go away.

Now.

Mon Dieu!!!!!


Clearly vastly more intelligent than you are. All you seem to be able to do is take the easy route and trash people you don't even know. Only an idiot does that.



Well now.

You are a fourth place boat in a hack five boat J105 fleet at HYC.

Yet you presume you know what you are talking about.

Some say you are a pompous ass.

Others say you are having a affair with Lesbian Robot.

Still others could care less.

BTW, why did your parents name you after an insect?????

#87 Wet Spreaders

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:52 AM

In fleet 1 I have witnessed:

1 - A change in the weight rules that showed up a difference of 300lbs between the top two boats
2 - Crappy RC every once in a while making the starts and finishes unusual and unfair
3 - Crazy currents, winds that swirl, back, veer
4 - Suicide whales
5 - Container ships parting the leeward gates
6 - freek gusts at 45kts
7 - Days with no wind at alll

you know what - the same people always find a way to win. The top three or four boats always separate by 6 to 10 boatlengths. But it's not the boats, it's the sailors. Give any also-ran driver on the course a Masquerade Bow, a French masthead kite, 100lbs more keel, pre-scrimp hull, $15000 instruments, new sails every day, tiller, longboarded bottom etc. They'll still be following Perkins and Russell home more often than not.

So what if there are people out there with cheater boats, with paid crew, narrower jib sheeting angles, tillers, etc.... I don't give a crap - the guys to beat in our fleet play the game straight and they play it well. Guys with cheater boats will be found out and are not respected. In sailboat racing, unless you have won the respect of the other people on the course, you've won nothing. One day I hope to learn enough to beat the GT & AQ guys - I could care less whether I beat the guys with the bent boats or not.

#88 apl

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:55 AM

... that j/22 is bizarre looking!!!


I think it's kinda cool. I grew up on wood Thistles, and the coolest had varnish above the waterline.

#89 DoRag

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 01:48 AM

In fleet 1 I have witnessed:

1 - A change in the weight rules that showed up a difference of 300lbs between the top two boats
2 - Crappy RC every once in a while making the starts and finishes unusual and unfair
3 - Crazy currents, winds that swirl, back, veer
4 - Suicide whales
5 - Container ships parting the leeward gates
6 - freek gusts at 45kts
7 - Days with no wind at alll

you know what - the same people always find a way to win. The top three or four boats always separate by 6 to 10 boatlengths. But it's not the boats, it's the sailors. Give any also-ran driver on the course a Masquerade Bow, a French masthead kite, 100lbs more keel, pre-scrimp hull, $15000 instruments, new sails every day, tiller, longboarded bottom etc. They'll still be following Perkins and Russell home more often than not.

So what if there are people out there with cheater boats, with paid crew, narrower jib sheeting angles, tillers, etc.... I don't give a crap - the guys to beat in our fleet play the game straight and they play it well. Guys with cheater boats will be found out and are not respected. In sailboat racing, unless you have won the respect of the other people on the course, you've won nothing. One day I hope to learn enough to beat the GT & AQ guys - I could care less whether I beat the guys with the bent boats or not.


Point very well made.

Yet instead of trying to promote and grow the Class we have to put with rulings like the one just rescinded or the infamous 5mm rudder gap (yeah, the J105 is manufactured to those tolerances, isn't it?) or the similiarly idiotic banning of barber haulers, etc.

Just like the clowns running US Sailing. Want a pencil???? Hey, sign here.

#90 Guest Anarchist awest_*

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:24 AM

I would not say that the class is managed very well, but I only sail on the boat, so do not feel qualified to pass judgement on that (except for the story of 'some guy' winning a protest after being black flagged because he didn't think he was over early...that is abso-fucking-lutely baffling), but when you act surprised that a J-Boat salesman lied to you about something then maybe you are not so very smart. Yacht brokers are typically pretty sleezy untrustworthy people...and sure, that J-105 can go 30 knots, will hold every penny of its value for resale, will never need to serviced, can fly, will get you laid, can do your taxes, knows who shot Kennedy, and is up for induction as the keelboat for the next Olympics, now fork over the deposit genius.



not surprised that a boat broker would stretch the truth but i was told the boats were virtually the same by one of the johnstones. that is surprising. and distressing. after reading this thread, the bottom line to me is that the boats are close enough and that j boats and the class committee should cut the crap and make it official that the boats are fungible. ie. OD.

#91 Student_Driver

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:22 PM

Hijack Alert....

This thread has derailed and I intend to push it further..

The J/Boat controversy is interesting and quite emotional on this site... Always fun to read.... Given that the J/Boats phenomena has been driven largely by thier success in creating large OD fleets, perhaps the largest of any designer (except perhaps M24s). .. It is hard to understand why the Johnstons don't spend more time and money on building to their templates, weights etc... It's like they are killing the golden goose with one thousand small cuts.... Despite this, though, no one else makes a 10 meter range boat which you can buy for under $150K, take to KWRW (or most NOODS) with 30+ boats on the line and not have to recruit 8 to 10 in crew. So they suck the most except for the alternatives.... For guys who have limited budgets for crew expenses and limited time/patience to organize large crews.. (eg M32 or alternative similar sports boats).. the J/boats stand out.... Again, the Johnstons need a wake up call as someone will eat their lunch if they don't stop slidding down the slippery slope from OD to almost-OD....

#92 sail_like_a_girl

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 02:54 PM

Hijack Alert....

This thread has derailed and I intend to push it further..

The J/Boat controversy is interesting and quite emotional on this site... Always fun to read.... Given that the J/Boats phenomena has been driven largely by thier success in creating large OD fleets, perhaps the largest of any designer (except perhaps M24s). .. It is hard to understand why the Johnstons don't spend more time and money on building to their templates, weights etc... It's like they are killing the golden goose with one thousand small cuts.... Despite this, though, no one else makes a 10 meter range boat which you can buy for under $150K, take to KWRW (or most NOODS) with 30+ boats on the line and not have to recruit 8 to 10 in crew. So they suck the most except for the alternatives.... For guys who have limited budgets for crew expenses and limited time/patience to organize large crews.. (eg M32 or alternative similar sports boats).. the J/boats stand out.... Again, the Johnstons need a wake up call as someone will eat their lunch if they don't stop slidding down the slippery slope from OD to almost-OD....


WORD!




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