84 replies to this topic

[kingseye]

At the outset, let me state both my bias and my limitations. I am partial to light weight trapeze dinghies. 14s, 49ers, 18s, A Cats and 505s all interest me. I am also aware of my limitations so when discussing these boats, I usually listen to what the experienced people say and remember it. What strikes me about the 505 guys in particular is that they articulate some supposedly irrefutable truth and then, some years later, announce a new truth which contradicts their earlier conclusion. My conclusion is that the 505s guys, with some important exceptions, have limited imagination and simply parrot what they have been told to think.

First, some exceptions: the guy who runs Waterat is pretty imaginative. He seems to be the first guy to really master the construction of a really good composite dinghy. He also figured out how to build a high aspect centerboard for the 505. I must say it pisses me off that everybody else in the world shamelessly rips off his design. Then, there are a couple of guys from northern California who are great sailors and had the imagination to try some new ideas. It’s too bad they never sailed their boat again after sailing all but the last race of the 2004 worlds. The 505 class needs more guys like that.

I could give you a lot of examples of the contradictory bullshit: centerboards must always jibe; nope: you need a jibe stopper; you can’t use a ram up; hell no, you must use a ram up but it must connected to the spinnaker halyard; vertical lifting pins are bullshit and a waste of time; wrong: you need a pin that goes up and down, and fore and aft! That crap doesn’t bother me too much actually. What really gets on my nerves is the bullshit that people dish out about masts. Let me illustrate my point. Please bear with me. To get to the truth, we need to wade through a lot of crap. Few people know that it took of sea of naked women and Paul Elvstrom to create the current mess.

Back in the day before the Germans took over Europe and Team Tuesday took over Long Beach, most everybody sailed with a D. I am told that the conventional wisdom was that the D was effective because it was bendy sideways so it automatically depowered upwind in a puff. Steve Taylor used an E because he thought the D would break in the Indian Ocean. Most everybody else used the D until a punk with long blond hair worked with Proctor to design the Epsilon. Guys started using it in the 470. A few people had Epsilons as spares in Ireland. And when the wind took down all the carbon rigs, they dropped the Epsilons in and sailed the last race. The last race was in a shifty offshore breeze. Holy shit, the Epsilon is fast when the wind shifts. Let’s try one!

People bought Epsilons. They were too stupid to understand that it was stiff as a telephone pole. That lack of understanding was compounded by the fact that Richmond Yacht Club hosted the next North Americans in mid-August on Berkeley Circle. I’d guess there was some wind. At that time, an experienced professional sailor who was 5” taller and 20 pounds heavier than any other crew won the regatta. Not even the anarchist Trevor B could beat him. That was absolute proof that you had to have an Epsilon. There was now irrefutable evidence that an Epsilon could do well when the sailors hit the shifts and, in a breeze, if the crew was a pro, had superb technique and had twice the righting moment of anyone else. People started buying Epsilons. It took three years to figure out that they were too stiff for the 505.

Meanwhile, the German fleet was struggling. Only second-tier dinghy sailors in Germany sailed the 505. A German with a business sense went to the German worlds a long time ago, finished 78th, and was hooked. Over time, this guy started a boat supply company. His business model was elegant and simple. First, his company would import one manufacturer’s hull from England, one sail maker’s sails from Denmark, and he would get the spars from one spar maker. The spar maker happened to Superspar. You need to ask that guy why he picked the Superspar. I think the answer is whatever the German word for “business” is. Now he was ready to implement the second part of his plan. He needed to find the most respected dinghy sailor in Germany to sail with him. In the German psyche, there were two great sailors: one from the east and one from the west. The business man called the West German, and he agreed to sail. That marked the beginning of the great explosion in German 505 sailing.

About this time, someone had the wisdom to suggest running the 505 worlds off a topless beach somewhere in Scandinavia. People are still talking about that. Someone else invited Paul Elvstrom to speak. Until he spoke, the sailors were focused on the beach, not masts. His message was simple. You have the most beautiful hull in the world but you need a big spinnaker. That message got people’s attention.

Overtime, the class approved a big kite which required a higher spinnaker sheave. That change created a whole set of new problems. The main problem was that you needed to support the mast off the wind. The big kite putt different loads on the rig and the mast looked awful. One early solution was to use a Cumulus that was stiffer sideways. That helped support the mast off the wind. Now, fewer people were buying Ds. A subsequent, and better solution, was to use high trap lines with tweaker or a double spreader rig. The irony is that those changes also support the D but people weren’t thinking about that.

Elsewhere in northern Europe, the German business man and the famous West German helm were sailing. The business man was the master organizer, a great crew, and could put together a boat that worked. The helm was a rare talent. Guess what. They started winning. It must be the mast. Ah Hah! They’re using a Superspar M2. The size of the German fleet exploded. The Germans figured if the famous helm sailed 505s, they wanted to sail 505s.

Things were brewing in America, too. Team Tuesday got going in southern California when some guy from LA stopped surfing on exotic left breaks off the coast of India and in the south Pacific. Two guys led that group: a helm and a guy who could crew and helm. The second guy couldn’t find a crew so he started crewing for the first guy. They learned to get a 505 around the track pretty quickly. They accumulated a lot of gear, including masts, and stored it in a warehouse they rented for a song because it sat on radioactive waste, or something like that. One of the masts they had was a M2. It was stiff and slow so they threw it in the back of the warehouse. They were generous with their knowledge, their time and their money. But those qualities didn’t make them smart. After a few years, they decided to sail two separate boats. One boat didn’t have a mast. So the former crew went to surfer and said, in effect, “what is the shittiest mast we have?” The surfer thought for half a second and responded, “the M2.” The former crew had a plan. He wanted the mast the surfer didn’t want, so the surfer could never ask for it back if the former crew made it work. Uhmm.

So the former crew started sailing with one of the best crews in America. They liked the breeze and knew out to hike. They practiced and went well. The former crew also decided to drill holes in the upper section of the M2’s sail track to make it bendier for and aft. They were fast. Since the surfer couldn’t get the M2 back, he had to airfreight one from England and rig it. Both of those guys are good, and people respect them so other Americans started buying the M2.

Now we have a recipe for a bunch of lemmings to follow these guys off the cliff. The best businessman in the 505 class, one of the very best helms in the world, and some really good sailors in California are using the M2. I can live with that bullshit, but just barely. Then, I heard two comments. An experienced American guy with some logo on his sail said you need a mast as stiff a M2. Another new guy fresh from big boat racing in the local club scene said he just bought a M2 which he described as the “fast mast.” They are both nice guys, but they’re full of it.

How can I prove my theory? What do we know? We know the Epsilon is too stiff. We know the D goes well up wind. We know the Cumulus is ok. Let’s go the numbers. (When reviewing the data, remember that the lower the number, the bendier the section.)

Section Fore/aft bend Side bend Total bend
M2 21.7 14.7 36.4
Cumulus 19.5 14 33.5
Epsilon 20.0 15.5 35.5
D 19.5 12 31.5.


The data show that the M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon fore and aft and is easily the stiffest of the bunch. It is almost as stiff as the Epsilon sideways. Overall, it is by far the stiffest mast. Do me a favor. Ask these chumps why the Epsilon is too stiff and the Superspar M2 isn’t.
I gotta go. Thinking about this bullshit has given me a migraine.

[USAUS]

um, this is dinghy anarchy, we don't write essays in this class...since it's your first post i'll take it easy on you, but it usually not a good idea to call people chumps on your first post! While you may have a point, try and limit the shit that comes out of your mouth.

out~

[GBR7911]

Trolling Newbie

[jfunk]

Wow what a first post.

Not the Proctor rep are you?

Sounds like you have more than a passing interest in five 0's

I wonder where we fit in on your stereotypes given we have a pretty new boat and have neither a superspar or a proctor. Splitters!!!

[TeamFugu]

The way it works with all classes is that when someone is fast, everyone tries to figure out what they have that is different and copy it. Most of the time it is the style and skill of the crew more than the equipment but people focus more on the equipment than their skill because it is easier to change equipment than bring your skill level up to match. Some people's style of sailing is best with stiff rigs and some with bendy. All boats follow this pattern. Everyone wants to be set up like the fastest boat and will copy what they do. I can't think of a single boat where people don't try to disect what the top guys are doing either with technique or hardware and copy it. This usually works so people continue to do it. 505 sailors are not chumps, they are human like the rest of us.

[skiffe]

This is just all to much ,do you have the back of the book version?

At the outset, let me state both my bias and my limitations. I am partial to light weight trapeze dinghies. 14s, 49ers, 18s, A Cats and 505s all interest me. I am also aware of my limitations so when discussing these boats, I usually listen to what the experienced people say and remember it. What strikes me about the 505 guys in particular is that they articulate some supposedly irrefutable truth and then, some years later, announce a new truth which contradicts their earlier conclusion. My conclusion is that the 505s guys, with some important exceptions, have limited imagination and simply parrot what they have been told to think.
First, some exceptions: the guy who runs Waterat is pretty imaginative. He seems to be the first guy to really master the construction of a really good composite dinghy. He also figured out how to build a high aspect centerboard for the 505. I must say it pisses me off that everybody else in the world shamelessly rips off his design. Then, there are a couple of guys from northern California who are great sailors and had the imagination to try some new ideas. It’s too bad they never sailed their boat again after sailing all but the last race of the 2004 worlds. The 505 class needs more guys like that.
I could give you a lot of examples of the contradictory bullshit: centerboards must always jibe; nope: you need a jibe stopper; you can’t use a ram up; hell no, you must use a ram up but it must connected to the spinnaker halyard; vertical lifting pins are bullshit and a waste of time; wrong: you need a pin that goes up and down, and fore and aft! That crap doesn’t bother me too much actually. What really gets on my nerves is the bullshit that people dish out about masts. Let me illustrate my point. Please bear with me. To get to the truth, we need to wade through a lot of crap. Few people know that it took of sea of naked women and Paul Elvstrom to create the current mess.
Back in the day before the Germans took over Europe and Team Tuesday took over Long Beach, most everybody sailed with a D. I am told that the conventional wisdom was that the D was effective because it was bendy sideways so it automatically depowered upwind in a puff. Steve Taylor used an E because he thought the D would break in the Indian Ocean. Most everybody else used the D until a punk with long blond hair worked with Proctor to design the Epsilon. Guys started using it in the 470. A few people had Epsilons as spares in Ireland. And when the wind took down all the carbon rigs, they dropped the Epsilons in and sailed the last race. The last race was in a shifty offshore breeze. Holy shit, the Epsilon is fast when the wind shifts. Let’s try one!
People bought Epsilons. They were too stupid to understand that it was stiff as a telephone pole. That lack of understanding was compounded by the fact that Richmond Yacht Club hosted the next North Americans in mid-August on Berkeley Circle. I’d guess there was some wind. At that time, an experienced professional sailor who was 5” taller and 20 pounds heavier than any other crew won the regatta. Not even the anarchist Trevor B could beat him. That was absolute proof that you had to have an Epsilon. There was now irrefutable evidence that an Epsilon could do well when the sailors hit the shifts and, in a breeze, if the crew was a pro, had superb technique and had twice the righting moment of anyone else. People started buying Epsilons. It took three years to figure out that they were too stiff for the 505.
Meanwhile, the German fleet was struggling. Only second-tier dinghy sailors in Germany sailed the 505. A German with a business sense went to the German worlds a long time ago, finished 78th, and was hooked. Over time, this guy started a boat supply company. His business model was elegant and simple. First, his company would import one manufacturer’s hull from England, one sail maker’s sails from Denmark, and he would get the spars from one spar maker. The spar maker happened to Superspar. You need to ask that guy why he picked the Superspar. I think the answer is whatever the German word for “business” is. Now he was ready to implement the second part of his plan. He needed to find the most respected dinghy sailor in Germany to sail with him. In the German psyche, there were two great sailors: one from the east and one from the west. The business man called the West German, and he agreed to sail. That marked the beginning of the great explosion in German 505 sailing.
About this time, someone had the wisdom to suggest running the 505 worlds off a topless beach somewhere in Scandinavia. People are still talking about that. Someone else invited Paul Elvstrom to speak. Until he spoke, the sailors were focused on the beach, not masts. His message was simple. You have the most beautiful hull in the world but you need a big spinnaker. That message got people’s attention.
Overtime, the class approved a big kite which required a higher spinnaker sheave. That change created a whole set of new problems. The main problem was that you needed to support the mast off the wind. The big kite putt different loads on the rig and the mast looked awful. One early solution was to use a Cumulus that was stiffer sideways. That helped support the mast off the wind. Now, fewer people were buying Ds. A subsequent, and better solution, was to use high trap lines with tweaker or a double spreader rig. The irony is that those changes also support the D but people weren’t thinking about that.
Elsewhere in northern Europe, the German business man and the famous West German helm were sailing. The business man was the master organizer, a great crew, and could put together a boat that worked. The helm was a rare talent. Guess what. They started winning. It must be the mast. Ah Hah! They’re using a Superspar M2. The size of the German fleet exploded. The Germans figured if the famous helm sailed 505s, they wanted to sail 505s.
Things were brewing in America, too. Team Tuesday got going in southern California when some guy from LA stopped surfing on exotic left breaks off the coast of India and in the south Pacific. Two guys led that group: a helm and a guy who could crew and helm. The second guy couldn’t find a crew so he started crewing for the first guy. They learned to get a 505 around the track pretty quickly. They accumulated a lot of gear, including masts, and stored it in a warehouse they rented for a song because it sat on radioactive waste, or something like that. One of the masts they had was a M2. It was stiff and slow so they threw it in the back of the warehouse. They were generous with their knowledge, their time and their money. But those qualities didn’t make them smart. After a few years, they decided to sail two separate boats. One boat didn’t have a mast. So the former crew went to surfer and said, in effect, “what is the shittiest mast we have?” The surfer thought for half a second and responded, “the M2.” The former crew had a plan. He wanted the mast the surfer didn’t want, so the surfer could never ask for it back if the former crew made it work. Uhmm.
So the former crew started sailing with one of the best crews in America. They liked the breeze and knew out to hike. They practiced and went well. The former crew also decided to drill holes in the upper section of the M2’s sail track to make it bendier for and aft. They were fast. Since the surfer couldn’t get the M2 back, he had to airfreight one from England and rig it. Both of those guys are good, and people respect them so other Americans started buying the M2.
Now we have a recipe for a bunch of lemmings to follow these guys off the cliff. The best businessman in the 505 class, one of the very best helms in the world, and some really good sailors in California are using the M2. I can live with that bullshit, but just barely. Then, I heard two comments. An experienced American guy with some logo on his sail said you need a mast as stiff a M2. Another new guy fresh from big boat racing in the local club scene said he just bought a M2 which he described as the “fast mast.” They are both nice guys, but they’re full of it.
How can I prove my theory? What do we know? We know the Epsilon is too stiff. We know the D goes well up wind. We know the Cumulus is ok. Let’s go the numbers. (When reviewing the data, remember that the lower the number, the bendier the section.)

Section Fore/aft bend Side bend Total bend
M2 21.7 14.7 36.4
Cumulus 19.5 14 33.5
Epsilon 20.0 15.5 35.5
D 19.5 12 31.5.


The data show that the M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon fore and aft and is easily the stiffest of the bunch. It is almost as stiff as the Epsilon sideways. Overall, it is by far the stiffest mast. Do me a favor. Ask these chumps why the Epsilon is too stiff and the Superspar M2 isn’t.
I gotta go. Thinking about this bullshit has given me a migraine.

[rotten dog]

What Fugu said. The fact is that boat speed is very much a factor of crew skill, differences in kit give very little difference if the kit is in good condition. People tend to think that the best 505 crews must have the best set up, but mast stiffness is not the only factor (but people see the difference in masts rather than the difference in skill).

It happens in all classes. My class just approved carbon rigs, and despite the fact that they aren't hugely faster people are ditching their alloy rigs for carbon by the boatload. Kit makes a big difference psychologically and thats that. It is human nature to blame your failings on a different factor (ie don't have new sails, mast too stiff/bendy), when the main factor is lack of practice and skill.

[HobieAnarchy]

Are 505 sailors chumps or did I smoke too much weed last week?

Too much weed.

Rambling, incoherent ghit.

[Trevor B]

In the words of the surfer "that was fuckin' great."

Don't agree with a 100% of it, but it does explain why we sailed with a "D" in the 2004 Worlds.

[5o5crew]

-->

In the words of the surfer "that was fuckin' great."
[/quote]

HAH. well, let it begin. I'll sit back and watch this one for a while...

Skiffe- the short version is that kingseye is somewhat irritated at the current mast situation in the 5o class: history repeating itself etc. and people not realizing it. Looks like the chart at the bottom of the post didn't get formatted right?

Personally, I just want proctor to bring the D back... for us light people it's better.

• Back to top

[TalonF4U]

okay, so I read that whole thing, and I still don't know which mast I should get. Since I assume that was the point of the whole gig, I have to conclude that either 1) I am one of those lemming stupid dumbass chump 505 sailors, or 2) the peice wasn't totally effective.

interesting theries though. I suppose if somebody wants to bitch without having to resort to things like offering solutions, this is as fine a place to do it as any. But we all have short attention spans here-especially me, as a lemming who is incapable of thought. Can somebody give me the ten-second version of what mast to use? D with upper trap wires for the skinny kids? Epsilon or M2 if I'm really fat?

i really do appriciate the insight from someone who clearly knows a bit, but I think I'm not the first to mention that calling so many people fools is bound to ignite some animosity, which is not condusive toward resolving the problem. I can't decide wether your intention was more geared toward educating or irritating. I'll take the education--thanks again--and ignore the irritation.

[505er]

ROTFL

Kingseye is either a new handle for a long time 505 racer who wanted to have some fun and created a new SA login for better anonymity.... or Kngseye has spent FAR TOO MUCH TIME STUDYING THE 505 CLASS WITHOUT jumping in.

You are not seriously saying the 505 sailors are the only sailors who go round in circles, are you? I had people telling me 25 years ago that the class goes from bendy rigs to stiff rigs, back to bendy, etc. Even the supposedly strict one design Laser class goes through this, with people wondering if the Austalian or UK spars are better than the US ones. And for a period of time one Laser supplier had different length bottom and top sections from the others, to compensate for different stiffness due to different aluminum....

There are a small number of 505 teams that are good enough and have the time, to develop new rigs. Morgan/Trevor, Wolfgang/Holger, Chris/Darren, Krister/a crew, Howard/Mike come to mind (and this is not a complete list) The rest of the sailors are best off doing the same rig and setup as the best teams they race against regularly. That doesn't make them chumps, it means they are realistic and want to focus what time and energy they have on sailing the boat better, not trying to figure out and refine a rig on their own.

[TeamFugu]

One thing people also forget that it is not only the spar that makes the boat go fast. A sail has to be cut to fit the bend characteristics of the mast. They the crew can still bugger the whole mess with spreader angles and poke, shroud tension, vang adjustments, cunningham, and general trim.

Even Laser sailors play this game as much as they can. If they could change spars, they would and if a top sailor won with a new spar, everyone would flock to the new spar. I remember that event in the 70's there was talk of what builder you should get your boat from.

One of my favorite things about carbon spars is not the bend characteristics but the fact that I have ten pounds less in the water when I capsize thus making the boat easier to right. Remember that what works for one may not work for another. Some have made a living out of footing for speed and others kick ass pointing high. The slot is thinner when sailing high but if someone can keep it going, then all the more power to them. For the footers, if they can make the VMG work power to them as well. For those who follow, pick the sword you want to die on, practice, practice, and don't look back.

You could probably put the top guys on any boat with any rig and they would make it look like the fastest thing on the water once they figure out how it all works best for them. Remember that a blown tack, gybe, or capsize will remove any slight advantage you got from fairing, or the rig. Boat handling is the key to success. If you look at who is consistently "lucky", you'll probably find luck had little to do with it.

[Jesse Falsone]

Damn, and I just finished rigging a new M2 while offering to donate a new D to charity!

I gotta agree with kingseye - we are all full of shit, and he has outted us. This is one hell of a history lesson he described, all without names - too funny.

505 gear is like high-fashion. Whatever is winning must be fastest, right? Someone once told me to stop obsessing about gear selection and just learn the gear that I have. That's the most important thing. While I still obsess about gear, I know enough about what I have to not get too distracted. I have a D, a Cumulus, and an M2, and have won regatta with each in light and heavy air. Go figure.

I can tell you this with certainty - a stiff upper mast is faster downwind. How you get that stiffness doesn't matter - stiffer section, upper shrouds, trap twings, etc. 505 races are now more balanced between upwind and downwind speed putting more of a premium on stiffer upper masts. I also think that a stiffer upper mast is better upwind in light and moderate wind. I will be the first to tell you that I just don't know what makes a mast fast upwind in heavy air anymore. You would think "gust response" is a good thing, but aluminum is aluminum, and you can get only so much dynamic response from it (it sure doesn't behave like carbon). So, this all brings me back to the "know your gear" addage.

Damn, Tyler and I sure were fast with that Cumulus 2 weekends ago. Hmmm.

[5o5crew]

You could probably put the top guys on any boat with any rig and they would make it look like the fastest thing on the water once they figure out how it all works best for them. Remember that a blown tack, gybe, or capsize will remove any slight advantage you got from fairing, or the rig. Boat handling is the key to success. If you look at who is consistently "lucky", you'll probably find luck had little to do with it.

so in other words you agree with kingseye...?

[JimC]

The first simple answer is that you are oversimplifying. There is much more to it than spar A is stiffer than spar B. You need a complete graph of stiffness right up and down the tube to make a valid comparison. Especially what is happening in the taper area is critical but difficult to put numbers too.

And the second simple answer is that all this stuff makes an awful lot less difference than most people think.

Oh and finally, 505 sailors are probably no smarter or dumber than sailors in any other class. People are people.

[TeamFugu]

You could probably put the top guys on any boat with any rig and they would make it look like the fastest thing on the water once they figure out how it all works best for them. Remember that a blown tack, gybe, or capsize will remove any slight advantage you got from fairing, or the rig. Boat handling is the key to success. If you look at who is consistently "lucky", you'll probably find luck had little to do with it.

so in other words you agree with kingseye...?

Yes and no. I do agree that 505's place too much emphasis on hardware but then so does any class. Take that to extreme and I guess I would say that chump label could apply to the sport as a whole. Look at the arms race in leadmines for proof.

I don't agree that 505's are the only class that is so afflicted. What 505 sailors are is a great group of people, as fars as I have had experience, and above all they are human.

I do, however, agree that we put far too much importance on hardware. Find what you like and learn to use it. Personnally I feel that at best I have been able to get only about 60-70% of what any boat I have had to offer. Anyone who knows me will know that I don't worry too much about how fair the bottom is or how perfect the rig tension is because I know I blow too many tacks, too many gybes, and mistakes too numerous to list for me to be able to fix them with a different spar. When I start loosing to the top sailor in the world by a boat lenght or two on a consistent basis, I'll look at the man in the mirror firts.

[MR.CLEAN]

Are 505 sailors chumps or did I smoke too much weed last week?

Too much weed.

Didn't know that was possible. I'll try later.

[HobieAnarchy]

Are 505 sailors chumps or did I smoke too much weed last week?

Too much weed.

Didn't know that was possible. I'll try later.

Hey, I went to college in Ann Arbor in the late '70's / early '80's. There's definitely a consumption/benefit limit - I've been there. After a while, it just doesn't get you any more stoned - you just want to take a nap.

As a magazine editor, I just get fed up trying to read crap where the author doesn't know how to create a new paragraph or use punctuation.

On topic, I think you could apply his original statement to any OD class - we're all chumps to get the latest and greatest do-dad, thinking that it'll be the magic bullet that wins the pickle dish - instead of learning how to drive the boat better.

[5o5crew]

Are 505 sailors chumps or did I smoke too much weed last week?

Too much weed.

Didn't know that was possible. I'll try later.

Hey, I went to college in Ann Arbor in the late '70's / early '80's. There's definitely a consumption/benefit limit - I've been there. After a while, it just doesn't get you any more stoned - you just want to take a nap.

As a magazine editor, I just get fed up trying to read crap where the author doesn't know how to create a new paragraph or use punctuation.

On topic, I think you could apply his original statement to any OD class - we're all chumps to get the latest and greatest do-dad, thinking that it'll be the magic bullet that wins the pickle dish - instead of learning how to drive the boat better.

hey hobie: I think formatting issues have been fixed. I think it's also safe to say kingseye knows how to write, if not in the vernacular.

[Ned]

So in the end it's more about the software than the hardware?

[bigreen505]

Yeah, that looks pretty much on the money, but we have fun. One thing you have to look at is skipper preference. Some like the mast to does everything itself and some skippers like a stiff section that allows him/her to adjust the sail shape more precisely without the mast bending too much on its own. One boat in our fleet has an Epsilon and I always disliked it. However the way it works with the North 3DL sails is just perfect. Ideally I would send the main back to Ethan and have just a hint of luff curve taken out at the top, but that is it.

Everyone gets so excited about mast stiffness and deflection. What matters is how a rigged mast at tension works with a main sail. Our current favorite mast is a repaired D with another D section pounded in almost up to the spreaders and running upper shrouds. It works really well on our boat with a worn out Ullman main in the light to full power range we typically sail in. Not sure that I would recommend it to anyone else though and the fact that it works well is both a fluke and an accident as it was simply an attempt to save a broken mast.

Kingseye -- want to add the characteristics for a D+ and Stratus to your list? I remember they were popular for a while too, though never got the following of the others.

[5o5crew]

from memory, and without any numbers, I'll say that a stratos is bendier fore and aft than a D, but about as stiff sideways as a cumulus? or perhaps somewhere between a D and a cumulus in terms of side bend? We have a stratos as our second mast, and haven't really dialed it in yet, although we should as it would probably suit us well. Both the D and the Stratos are set up with high trap wires for off the wind stuff, tweaked in for upwind legs.

[Jesse Falsone]

Just re-reading this original post from Mac.., I mean Kingseye, I notice that he/she is making statements like the "M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon". Is it really? No, it's slightly stiffer sideways, and certainly softer fore/aft from the quoted numbers. If you want the sideways stiffness, but with similar bend fore/aft, seems to me the Epsilon is a good mast for you. Now, if by chance, Kingseye happens to have an old Epsilon sitting around, maybe he should put it in his boat (presumably a 505) and come out and prove to the world conclusively that an Epsilon is fast, and that we are indeed all full of shit like he says (especially the guy with a logo on his sail). Then, after he/she has mopped up, everyone will say "if that guy can go fast with an Epsilon, we gotta have it!". I know that's what I'd be saying. ; )

Please let me know Kingseye so I can place my order ASAP with Selden.

[5o5crew]

maybe he should put it in his boat (presumably a 505) and come out and prove to the world conclusively that an Epsilon is fast, and that we are indeed all full of shit like he says (especially the guy with a logo on his sail). Then, after he/she has mopped up, everyone will say "if that guy can go fast with an Epsilon, we gotta have it!". I know that's what I'd be saying. ; )

Please let me know Kingseye so I can place my order ASAP with Selden.

I know I should be busy writing a complit paper on Eliot... but this is bloody amusing. Come now Jesse, lets not out people right away...
Speaking of which, would you care to let us know who the guy with the logo is?

Jfunk, you said you werent using superspar or proctor... going for goldspar? what gives.

[505er]

Just re-reading this original post from Mac.., I mean Kingseye, I notice that he/she is making statements like the "M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon". Is it really? No, it's slightly stiffer sideways, and certainly softer fore/aft from the quoted numbers.

Proctor (Selden) and Superspar do not use comparable numbers in their literature and web sites. That was done deliberately by one of them to make comparison harder. And the numbers they DO use refer to the full section and do not describe what happens with the taper.

[professor_booty]

Just re-reading this original post from Mac.., I mean Kingseye, I notice that he/she is making statements like the "M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon". Is it really? No, it's slightly stiffer sideways, and certainly softer fore/aft from the quoted numbers.

Proctor (Selden) and Superspar do not use comparable numbers in their literature and web sites. That was done deliberately by one of them to make comparison harder. And the numbers they DO use refer to the full section and do not describe what happens with the taper.

The table in the original post appears to show section inertias (in cm^4) about the longitudinal and lateral axis for a couple of different masts. Most appear in:

http://www.proctorma...ghy/compare.asp

The third figure for each section, listed as "total bend", seems to be just the arithmetic sum of the first two. What is the physical significance of this number? It seems meaningless to me. Can somebody explain? I admit that I'm a little dull witted though.

[JT Sparman]

Did Kingseye blow his wad with one post? I hope there is more intelligent life on this site than this?

I'm afraid to read more...

[hankeester]

IMPRESSIVE Essay......... Now I'm gonna go smoke one

[raff]

i have no idea about 505 rigs but that post was great.

[jfunk]

maybe he should put it in his boat (presumably a 505) and come out and prove to the world conclusively that an Epsilon is fast, and that we are indeed all full of shit like he says (especially the guy with a logo on his sail). Then, after he/she has mopped up, everyone will say "if that guy can go fast with an Epsilon, we gotta have it!". I know that's what I'd be saying. ; )

Please let me know Kingseye so I can place my order ASAP with Selden.

I know I should be busy writing a complit paper on Eliot... but this is bloody amusing. Come now Jesse, lets not out people right away...
Speaking of which, would you care to let us know who the guy with the logo is?

Jfunk, you said you werent using superspar or proctor... going for goldspar? what gives.

Busted. Doug made a few special sections for Pagey and Nath which they won the 470 Worlds with and he sent us one. This is our first season back in 505's for well over a decade, so we just decided to set up the boat how we wanted and not copy anyone. We have gone to our own sailmaker as well, Dave Alexander.

It has been frustrating at times, but we are making gains, pretty sure we are a lot faster than we were at Nats. Though we are a little slow on a tight reach. Don't know if it's the kite, or we are a little soft sideways at the top of the mast. Works well uphill though.

[johnnyhoopla]

Huh?

They say weed makes you more insightful and opens the doors of perception.

I read that first post. I beg to differ.

Go easy on the fancy words man. Some of us post here 'cause we can't think good.

[DMR]

So somone finally taught him how to post...

Are you suggesting the 505 fleet are like Windows users?

505 commercial

[5o5crew]

DMR- hah, where the hell did you find that? I wonder what the 5o equivalent of a mac is then...

Jfunk- young VanM was using a rather interesting looking two part goldspar at the santa cruz worlds... similar set up? using any sort of support for the top of the mast?

[hankeester]

Kingseye,
Can I get you to write my thesis for me,
I pay in kind bud and canadian lager

[jfunk]

DMR- hah, where the hell did you find that? I wonder what the 5o equivalent of a mac is then...

Jfunk- young VanM was using a rather interesting looking two part goldspar at the santa cruz worlds... similar set up? using any sort of support for the top of the mast?

Nope

Ours has 3 sections and it is from different thickness wall tubing to what they have made in the past.

We run Hi/Lo trap wires

[5o5crew]

DMR- hah, where the hell did you find that? I wonder what the 5o equivalent of a mac is then...

Jfunk- young VanM was using a rather interesting looking two part goldspar at the santa cruz worlds... similar set up? using any sort of support for the top of the mast?

Nope

Ours has 3 sections and it is from different thickness wall tubing to what they have made in the past.

We run Hi/Lo trap wires

3 sections... interesting to say the least. have issues with the fit between the sections? or are you just never seperating them 49er style (where it's a bloody pain in the ass to get the carbon section onto the alu one).
I assume you're coming to Hayling Is? I want to see this mast...

[kingseye]

I have a couple of responses. First, I apologize for the initial formatting. I didn’t understand that the software would change the formatting when I posted it.

Second, the reference to weed was a joke. I don’t smoke.

Third, some people did not understand that there is a distinction between describing a person’s character and making fun of that person’s thought process.

Fourth, here are a few technical responses. The cumulative data are simply a way to assess the overall bend characteristics of the mast. The fore and aft bend and the sideways bend numbers reflect the bend characteristics below the taper. My non-engineering sense is that there are similarities between the bend characteristic above and below the taper. But I am prepared to be corrected on that assessment.

[jfunk]

DMR- hah, where the hell did you find that? I wonder what the 5o equivalent of a mac is then...

Jfunk- young VanM was using a rather interesting looking two part goldspar at the santa cruz worlds... similar set up? using any sort of support for the top of the mast?

Nope

Ours has 3 sections and it is from different thickness wall tubing to what they have made in the past.

We run Hi/Lo trap wires

3 sections... interesting to say the least. have issues with the fit between the sections? or are you just never seperating them 49er style (where it's a bloody pain in the ass to get the carbon section onto the alu one).
I assume you're coming to Hayling Is? I want to see this mast...

Sorry mate

You will have to wait till Adelaide, we are too new to 505's the boat to go to Hayling.

There are no issues with the joins at all. It is something that Goldspar has been doing for a long long time. Also the three section's is nothing new. The standard Goldspar in the past was a 1.7mm wall thickness bottom section and a 1.5mm wall thickness top section, (the gold bit). If you were a heavy crew you ran a 2.0mm bottom section and a 1.7mm top section. However the mast Chris and Darren used for all their wins was a 1.7mm, 1.5mm then 1.3mm at the very top.

Ours is kind of like that, but as I said has different wall thickness to what has been used in the past. Oh yea and it has been crushed at the side, (now an oval shape instead of round) which also affects it's bend characteristics. Beyond that detail, I am not sure if anything else is public knowledge yet. As I understand it, this is a proprietry mast made for Nath and Pagey and it's up to them or Doug to release any further details - for all I know, you can buy them now and I am being unnecessarily coy. I am just doing what I have been told.

[5o5crew]

DMR- hah, where the hell did you find that? I wonder what the 5o equivalent of a mac is then...

Jfunk- young VanM was using a rather interesting looking two part goldspar at the santa cruz worlds... similar set up? using any sort of support for the top of the mast?

Nope

Ours has 3 sections and it is from different thickness wall tubing to what they have made in the past.

We run Hi/Lo trap wires

3 sections... interesting to say the least. have issues with the fit between the sections? or are you just never seperating them 49er style (where it's a bloody pain in the ass to get the carbon section onto the alu one).
I assume you're coming to Hayling Is? I want to see this mast...

Sorry mate

You will have to wait till Adelaide, we are too new to 505's the boat to go to Hayling.

There are no issues with the joins at all. It is something that Goldspar has been doing for a long long time. Also the three section's is nothing new. The standard Goldspar in the past was a 1.7mm wall thickness bottom section and a 1.5mm wall thickness top section, (the gold bit). If you were a heavy crew you ran a 2.0mm bottom section and a 1.7mm top section. However the mast Chris and Darren used for all their wins was a 1.7mm, 1.5mm then 1.3mm at the very top.

Ours is kind of like that, but as I said has different wall thickness to what has been used in the past. Oh yea and it has been crushed at the side, (now an oval shape instead of round) which also affects it's bend characteristics. Beyond that detail, I am not sure if anything else is public knowledge yet. As I understand it, this is a proprietry mast made for Nath and Pagey and it's up to them or Doug to release any further details - for all I know, you can buy them now and I am being unnecessarily coy. I am just doing what I have been told.

Pity you won't be able to make Hayling. Adelaide is out of the question for me, it would mean missing roughly the first month of classes in the spring semester... and as much as it would be, we can't have that.
Nonetheless, mast info is always interesting... keep us posted on what you're allowed to tell us. should be interesting.

[FoilerMothGuy]

'Drugs are bad mmm-kay. If you do drugs, you're bad mmm-kay.' - 'Mmm-kay Mr. Mackey'

Jesus bro, get off the whacky tabbacky and go out sailing. Who gives a rats about who's using who's rigs... as long as they work. Each to their own; right?

[DMR]

Pity you won't be able to make Hayling. Adelaide is out of the question for me, it would mean missing roughly the first month of classes in the spring semester... and as much as it would be, we can't have that.
Nonetheless, mast info is always interesting... keep us posted on what you're allowed to tell us. should be interesting.

Nothing a semester abroad can't solve. There's got to be a college somewhere near Adelaide.

I think I may pay for that comment with Pops later...

[jfunk]

There is three!!

[BeachbumII]

The god-proven fact about sailors is that there are very few people who actually know what thei want for their boat, the rest are mere copycats, who use what the best guys use. This copy-cat stuff became so familiar to me when we got this new Carbon Stick for the Tornado and were absolutely clueless about the basic trim at European masters.

[unleaded]

Wow those #s on the Epsilon look pretty good. anyone know where I can get one of those.

[bigreen505]

Put a want ad on the 505 site or send a note to the fleet listservs. There are a lot around, sitting in garages, just ask.

[jersey_sailor]

<pot stirring>

Ian Pinnell is winning worlds using a Alto Cumulus. It's stiffer than the Cumulus. Any thoughts?

</pot stirring>

[Steve Adolph]

telephone poles in light air, huh?
No condition yet that you needed to depower in, so probably showed up with a mast and sail combo for light air.

[nicknitro71]

The solution is simple: In competition overpower the sons-of-a-bitches.

Design a boat like a 505, for instance, with a main and jib of 200 sf and a 500 sf gennaker and let them race. Build the boat stiff, very durable, and without worrying about exotic materials, put couple of trapezes and off you go.

What you will see is true talent coming out. It's juts like racing a F1 in the rain, you are overpowered given the envoriment so any rig advantage becomes of secondary nature because every boat is overpowered anyway.

For cursing and fun provide a 120 sf main + jib and a 200 sf gennaker so everyone can enjoy the rig without capsizing every other minute.

It upsets me that one has to drop close to 30 grands for a competitive 505 due to all the gimmicks that make the boat 0.5 knts faste

[GBR7911]

The Alto is a new section its not the "alto cumulus"

see http://www.seldenmas...tory.asp?ID=143

[Icedtea]

toooooooooooooo much weed!

[Liquid]

So in the end it's more about the software than the hardware?

Say it aint so Ned!!!

[transom]

man that worlds in denmark was sweet! Pinnell was fast there too!!!

[mrpelicano]

man that worlds in denmark was sweet! Pinnell was fast there too!!!

Pinnell is a damn good sailor and knows a thing or two about the 505, having raced them for decades. Knows one or two things about sails, too.

[shampoo effect]

<pot stirring>

Ian Pinnell is winning worlds using a Alto Cumulus. It's stiffer than the Cumulus. Any thoughts?

</pot stirring>

I just re-read the original post by Kingseye. classic. what a great history lesson. i cant stop laughing.

[skslr]

Here is a stupid questions about 505 masts from someone who has only sailed a old beaten up 505 once (Still enjoyed it very much, though!):

Many dinghies with mast top kites use uppers to save the top while kite is up. Downwind and upwind in light air they prevent mast bend forward as well as sideways.
Upwind in strong winds you pull on the kicker heavily => mainsail pulls back mast top => uppers go slack => top can flex and depower the main in gusts.

Now some 505 are running the trapeze wires to the top instead.

I would guess it puts a lot of compression on the mast top and could kill the mast if
either
you forget to set the tweakers at forestay height correctly for the current leg
or
everything goes wrong downwind and crew flies to the front while tweakers are eased.

What am I missing here?

[Steve Adolph]

don't think you are missing anything. some use uppers, some use high traps

[skslr]

don't think you are missing anything. some use uppers, some use high traps

I just would like to learn why some think high trapeze wires are favorable in 505 despite of many other classes with more experience with trapeze + mast head kite opting for uppers. Reduced windage?

[another 505 sailor]

don't think you are missing anything. some use uppers, some use high traps

I just would like to learn why some think high trapeze wires are favorable in 505 despite of many other classes with more experience with trapeze + mast head kite opting for uppers. Reduced windage?

Off the top of my head, other classes with masthead kites are twin trapeze, with increased righting moment leading to more sail carrying capability, which leads to greater loads on the mast tip. I am guessing here, but if these masts didn't have some form of upper support with the kite up, the mast tip would break.

This is not the case in the 505. With only one trapeze and a spinnaker that is not quite a mast head, the loads on the mast are less. And the various aluminum masts that work upwind are strong enough not to break if they don't have upper support. That is not to say it is fast to have an inverted top section on a reach. But, the mast will not break. Maybe the sense or urgency isn't enough to encourage more research.

Since the larger spinnaker is still fairly new, with the possible exception of Morgan and Trevor's rig, no one has definitively shown one method of upper mast support to be the best. No system is perfect. Scientifically, I think upper spreaders would do the best job of consistently controlling upper mast bend on a reach. But upper spreaders appear to be the most complex solution, the hardest to adjust, with a higher cost, more windage, more weight aloft, and more chance to foul the spinnaker or the halyard on the spreaders.
Single upper trap lines that run through a tweaker at the hounds is a low windage solution, but adds complexity in the mast and in the boat with the tweaker control.
Dual trap lines has more windage than the single trap line, has no rigging in the boat or in the mast, but there are two trap cleats on each side, adding complexity, cost, and potential tangles and fouls.
Both upper trap systems have the potential to permanently bend the mast due to operator error or rigging failure in the case of the single line system.
I think we'll see more upper spreaders over time, and eventually we'll have carbon masts, probably with upper spreaders.

[Pig in a Wig]

Surely the amount of rig tension which you are running makes a big difference to different masts. US boats tend to run with very high rig tensions and stiff masts, the brits seem to favour less stiff masts (Cumulus) and less rig tension, the Aussies use any old mast and sloppy rigs. Strange thing is, in the right hands they are all fast. Ian Pinnell was so consistent in Palermo it was uncanny and he is not known as a light wind specialist. So where did he get that consistant boat speed from while everyone else struggled. New mast? Flatter P & B sails? Voodoo? I'm fucked if I know but if he can carry that speed through the wind range he has learnt something about the 505 rig that we are all missing!

[jfunk]

Havent we had a competition with conditions at one end of the spectrum, light winds flat water, so a boat setup to those conditions should dominate.

Maybe Pinnell went there worked out the likely conditions and built a rig to suit.

[bdal]

There are boats that eliminate most of the variables and the need to think about how skipper and crew weight affect mast bend differently in a single trap boat. These boats even eliminate variables in the blades and sails. They're called strict "one designs" and they put many of us in a boredom induced coma. They are great for those with short attention spans and an intolerance of variables---kind of similar to the differences between checkers and chess players. Same board--different game entirely (not that there's anything wrong with it!).

Let me know if anyone remains unpissed off?

Bram

 5o5_1976_durban_4.jpg   392.53K   211 downloads

[jersey_sailor]

<pot stirring>

A few East Coast boats have jumped on the Alto bandwagon since Proctor/Selden has been importing them into their SC facility. Is the mindset of these sailors to use these telephone poles in the windless doldrums of LI & Annapolis, or are they secretly planning on bringing these weapons westward to SanFran (along with 505 class President-sized crews) to the no-holds-barred smackdown this August known as the World Championship?*

Also, any data on the Alto stiffness?

</pot stirring>

* Dramatic emphasis added since work is particularly sucky this Tuesday morning.

[Jesse Falsone]

It's interesting to note that a guy going by the pseudonym "Kingseye" has apparently made a visit to the Selden factory, and I believe he may be on their board of directors now. It's also interesting that the current world champion used this new "Alto" section in Italy (wow, the section must be gold in light air), but the increased width makes it very difficult to fit into the most popular 505. The stiffness numbers suggest that the Alto is only slightly stiffer than the Cumulus, but still far from as stiff as the M2. Who's full of BS now?

Attached Files

•  newsections_2008_w_Alto.pdf   69.02K   87 downloads

[jfunk]

Sandy's boat had an Alto at the Nationals.

[kingseye]

I bought one because it looks good with a Waterat black boom and black Waterat poles. Also, I saw a bunch of bent masts at the Gorge after a few days of sailing in flat water and high winds. I hope it fits in a Waterat.

[Steve Adolph]

I'm far from an expert or widely experienced, but I was very happy with how my cumulus held up in 2006 in San Fran after 10 days of hard sailing.

But, my mast is sleeved from foot to launcher fitting. A lot more stiffness down low.

[Magician]

[/quote]

Mast debate is interesting. Sandy and Jordan won this year (Aus Champs) with Alto mast but last year, I believe in similar conditions were 2nd with the same mast and first went to a boat with an M2.... I feel that Sandy was quicker this year. Could be the crew I heard that Sandy has changed his sail design?

I recently bend tested the top of my M2 and Cumulas. Surprising my m2 was softer both sideways and fore and aft??? Can anyone explain this???

[Jesse Falsone]

I recently bend tested the top of my M2 and Cumulas. Surprising my m2 was softer both sideways and fore and aft??? Can anyone explain this???

You performed the test incorrectly

[Magician]

I recently bend tested the top of my M2 and Cumulas. Surprising my m2 was softer both sideways and fore and aft??? Can anyone explain this???

You performed the test incorrectly

How would go do it?

[jersey_sailor]

I've done an extensive survey on this topic here in SF at the Worlds, having observed the masts in action out in Berkeley Circle. I've concluded that when upside down in ten feet of water, all the masts perform the same.

[Uncle h]

I've done an extensive survey on this topic here in SF at the Worlds, having observed the masts in action out in Berkeley Circle. I've concluded that when upside down in ten feet of water, all the masts perform the same.

Ok jersey so which ones takes better soil samples? I understand H&S mast bent w/o a capsize?
Are there any broken (carbon) booms? It looks like some don't have the boom vang load spread out w/ a strap.Are the spectra line vs straps an issue?
You guys look to be having great fun (most of the time).

thx
uh

[jersey_sailor]

I've done an extensive survey on this topic here in SF at the Worlds, having observed the masts in action out in Berkeley Circle. I've concluded that when upside down in ten feet of water, all the masts perform the same.

Ok jersey so which ones takes better soil samples? I understand H&S mast bent w/o a capsize?
Are there any broken (carbon) booms? It looks like some don't have the boom vang load spread out w/ a strap.Are the spectra line vs straps an issue?
You guys look to be having great fun (most of the time).

thx
uh

H&S seriously bent a mast that had been bent (and straightened) in a previous capsize.

Bassmaster & skipper broke a carbon boom their first day out, right where the vang is. Apparently it wasn't reinforced enough.

[USA777]

I've done an extensive survey on this topic here in SF at the Worlds, having observed the masts in action out in Berkeley Circle. I've concluded that when upside down in ten feet of water, all the masts perform the same.

Ok jersey so which ones takes better soil samples? I understand H&S mast bent w/o a capsize?
Are there any broken (carbon) booms? It looks like some don't have the boom vang load spread out w/ a strap.Are the spectra line vs straps an issue?
You guys look to be having great fun (most of the time).

thx
uh

H&S seriously bent a mast that had been bent (and straightened) in a previous capsize.

Bassmaster & skipper broke a carbon boom their first day out, right where the vang is. Apparently it wasn't reinforced enough.

Who was the manufacturer of the broken carbon boom?

[jersey_sailor]

I've done an extensive survey on this topic here in SF at the Worlds, having observed the masts in action out in Berkeley Circle. I've concluded that when upside down in ten feet of water, all the masts perform the same.

Ok jersey so which ones takes better soil samples? I understand H&S mast bent w/o a capsize?
Are there any broken (carbon) booms? It looks like some don't have the boom vang load spread out w/ a strap.Are the spectra line vs straps an issue?
You guys look to be having great fun (most of the time).

thx
uh

H&S seriously bent a mast that had been bent (and straightened) in a previous capsize.

Bassmaster & skipper broke a carbon boom their first day out, right where the vang is. Apparently it wasn't reinforced enough.

Who was the manufacturer of the broken carbon boom?

I believe it was Holger Jess, one of the first ones made by them. Not sure if HJ laid the carbon; they may have just added fittings.

[ejpoulsen]

Thank you Kingseye for the entertainment!!! I have actually been to the radioactive warehouse and can confirm its existence.

I've never set foot on a 505 but the essay/rant could be about many classes, even "strict one-designs," just change the names and places. In any sport and in most endeavors, there are true innovators and then there are the BSers,

[jersey_sailor]

Still a classic thread...

What's the latest in mast selection these days? I figure with all the sitting around pre-happy hour, surely the topic has come up.

[Speng]

Most of the 5o5 sailors I've met don't seem like the types who smoke weed...

[Test]

I just dug this jem up ........ exotic lefts are in Indonesia not friggin India ????????? What's this guy smoking? Entertaining though

At the outset, let me state both my bias and my limitations. I am partial to light weight trapeze dinghies. 14s, 49ers, 18s, A Cats and 505s all interest me. I am also aware of my limitations so when discussing these boats, I usually listen to what the experienced people say and remember it. What strikes me about the 505 guys in particular is that they articulate some supposedly irrefutable truth and then, some years later, announce a new truth which contradicts their earlier conclusion. My conclusion is that the 505s guys, with some important exceptions, have limited imagination and simply parrot what they have been told to think.

First, some exceptions: the guy who runs Waterat is pretty imaginative. He seems to be the first guy to really master the construction of a really good composite dinghy. He also figured out how to build a high aspect centerboard for the 505. I must say it pisses me off that everybody else in the world shamelessly rips off his design. Then, there are a couple of guys from northern California who are great sailors and had the imagination to try some new ideas. It’s too bad they never sailed their boat again after sailing all but the last race of the 2004 worlds. The 505 class needs more guys like that.

I could give you a lot of examples of the contradictory bullshit: centerboards must always jibe; nope: you need a jibe stopper; you can’t use a ram up; hell no, you must use a ram up but it must connected to the spinnaker halyard; vertical lifting pins are bullshit and a waste of time; wrong: you need a pin that goes up and down, and fore and aft! That crap doesn’t bother me too much actually. What really gets on my nerves is the bullshit that people dish out about masts. Let me illustrate my point. Please bear with me. To get to the truth, we need to wade through a lot of crap. Few people know that it took of sea of naked women and Paul Elvstrom to create the current mess.

Back in the day before the Germans took over Europe and Team Tuesday took over Long Beach, most everybody sailed with a D. I am told that the conventional wisdom was that the D was effective because it was bendy sideways so it automatically depowered upwind in a puff. Steve Taylor used an E because he thought the D would break in the Indian Ocean. Most everybody else used the D until a punk with long blond hair worked with Proctor to design the Epsilon. Guys started using it in the 470. A few people had Epsilons as spares in Ireland. And when the wind took down all the carbon rigs, they dropped the Epsilons in and sailed the last race. The last race was in a shifty offshore breeze. Holy shit, the Epsilon is fast when the wind shifts. Let’s try one!

People bought Epsilons. They were too stupid to understand that it was stiff as a telephone pole. That lack of understanding was compounded by the fact that Richmond Yacht Club hosted the next North Americans in mid-August on Berkeley Circle. I’d guess there was some wind. At that time, an experienced professional sailor who was 5” taller and 20 pounds heavier than any other crew won the regatta. Not even the anarchist Trevor B could beat him. That was absolute proof that you had to have an Epsilon. There was now irrefutable evidence that an Epsilon could do well when the sailors hit the shifts and, in a breeze, if the crew was a pro, had superb technique and had twice the righting moment of anyone else. People started buying Epsilons. It took three years to figure out that they were too stiff for the 505.

Meanwhile, the German fleet was struggling. Only second-tier dinghy sailors in Germany sailed the 505. A German with a business sense went to the German worlds a long time ago, finished 78th, and was hooked. Over time, this guy started a boat supply company. His business model was elegant and simple. First, his company would import one manufacturer’s hull from England, one sail maker’s sails from Denmark, and he would get the spars from one spar maker. The spar maker happened to Superspar. You need to ask that guy why he picked the Superspar. I think the answer is whatever the German word for “business” is. Now he was ready to implement the second part of his plan. He needed to find the most respected dinghy sailor in Germany to sail with him. In the German psyche, there were two great sailors: one from the east and one from the west. The business man called the West German, and he agreed to sail. That marked the beginning of the great explosion in German 505 sailing.

About this time, someone had the wisdom to suggest running the 505 worlds off a topless beach somewhere in Scandinavia. People are still talking about that. Someone else invited Paul Elvstrom to speak. Until he spoke, the sailors were focused on the beach, not masts. His message was simple. You have the most beautiful hull in the world but you need a big spinnaker. That message got people’s attention.

Overtime, the class approved a big kite which required a higher spinnaker sheave. That change created a whole set of new problems. The main problem was that you needed to support the mast off the wind. The big kite putt different loads on the rig and the mast looked awful. One early solution was to use a Cumulus that was stiffer sideways. That helped support the mast off the wind. Now, fewer people were buying Ds. A subsequent, and better solution, was to use high trap lines with tweaker or a double spreader rig. The irony is that those changes also support the D but people weren’t thinking about that.

Elsewhere in northern Europe, the German business man and the famous West German helm were sailing. The business man was the master organizer, a great crew, and could put together a boat that worked. The helm was a rare talent. Guess what. They started winning. It must be the mast. Ah Hah! They’re using a Superspar M2. The size of the German fleet exploded. The Germans figured if the famous helm sailed 505s, they wanted to sail 505s.

Things were brewing in America, too. Team Tuesday got going in southern California when some guy from LA stopped surfing on exotic left breaks off the coast of India and in the south Pacific. Two guys led that group: a helm and a guy who could crew and helm. The second guy couldn’t find a crew so he started crewing for the first guy. They learned to get a 505 around the track pretty quickly. They accumulated a lot of gear, including masts, and stored it in a warehouse they rented for a song because it sat on radioactive waste, or something like that. One of the masts they had was a M2. It was stiff and slow so they threw it in the back of the warehouse. They were generous with their knowledge, their time and their money. But those qualities didn’t make them smart. After a few years, they decided to sail two separate boats. One boat didn’t have a mast. So the former crew went to surfer and said, in effect, “what is the shittiest mast we have?” The surfer thought for half a second and responded, “the M2.” The former crew had a plan. He wanted the mast the surfer didn’t want, so the surfer could never ask for it back if the former crew made it work. Uhmm.

So the former crew started sailing with one of the best crews in America. They liked the breeze and knew out to hike. They practiced and went well. The former crew also decided to drill holes in the upper section of the M2’s sail track to make it bendier for and aft. They were fast. Since the surfer couldn’t get the M2 back, he had to airfreight one from England and rig it. Both of those guys are good, and people respect them so other Americans started buying the M2.

Now we have a recipe for a bunch of lemmings to follow these guys off the cliff. The best businessman in the 505 class, one of the very best helms in the world, and some really good sailors in California are using the M2. I can live with that bullshit, but just barely. Then, I heard two comments. An experienced American guy with some logo on his sail said you need a mast as stiff a M2. Another new guy fresh from big boat racing in the local club scene said he just bought a M2 which he described as the “fast mast.” They are both nice guys, but they’re full of it.

How can I prove my theory? What do we know? We know the Epsilon is too stiff. We know the D goes well up wind. We know the Cumulus is ok. Let’s go the numbers. (When reviewing the data, remember that the lower the number, the bendier the section.)

Section Fore/aft bend Side bend Total bend
M2 21.7 14.7 36.4
Cumulus 19.5 14 33.5
Epsilon 20.0 15.5 35.5
D 19.5 12 31.5.


The data show that the M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon fore and aft and is easily the stiffest of the bunch. It is almost as stiff as the Epsilon sideways. Overall, it is by far the stiffest mast. Do me a favor. Ask these chumps why the Epsilon is too stiff and the Superspar M2 isn’t.
I gotta go. Thinking about this bullshit has given me a migraine.

[Uncle h]

At the outset, let me state both my bias and my limitations. I am partial to light weight trapeze dinghies. 14s, 49ers, 18s, A Cats and 505s all interest me. I am also aware of my limitations so when discussing these boats, I usually listen to what the experienced people say and remember it. What strikes me about the 505 guys in particular is that they articulate some supposedly irrefutable truth and then, some years later, announce a new truth which contradicts their earlier conclusion. My conclusion is that the 505s guys, with some important exceptions, have limited imagination and simply parrot what they have been told to think.

First, some exceptions: the guy who runs Waterat is pretty imaginative. He seems to be the first guy to really master the construction of a really good composite dinghy. He also figured out how to build a high aspect centerboard for the 505. I must say it pisses me off that everybody else in the world shamelessly rips off his design. Then, there are a couple of guys from northern California who are great sailors and had the imagination to try some new ideas. It's too bad they never sailed their boat again after sailing all but the last race of the 2004 worlds. The 505 class needs more guys like that.

I could give you a lot of examples of the contradictory bullshit: centerboards must always jibe; nope: you need a jibe stopper; you can't use a ram up; hell no, you must use a ram up but it must connected to the spinnaker halyard; vertical lifting pins are bullshit and a waste of time; wrong: you need a pin that goes up and down, and fore and aft! That crap doesn't bother me too much actually. What really gets on my nerves is the bullshit that people dish out about masts. Let me illustrate my point. Please bear with me. To get to the truth, we need to wade through a lot of crap. Few people know that it took of sea of naked women and Paul Elvstrom to create the current mess.

Back in the day before the Germans took over Europe and Team Tuesday took over Long Beach, most everybody sailed with a D. I am told that the conventional wisdom was that the D was effective because it was bendy sideways so it automatically depowered upwind in a puff. Steve Taylor used an E because he thought the D would break in the Indian Ocean. Most everybody else used the D until a punk with long blond hair worked with Proctor to design the Epsilon. Guys started using it in the 470. A few people had Epsilons as spares in Ireland. And when the wind took down all the carbon rigs, they dropped the Epsilons in and sailed the last race. The last race was in a shifty offshore breeze. Holy shit, the Epsilon is fast when the wind shifts. Let's try one!

People bought Epsilons. They were too stupid to understand that it was stiff as a telephone pole. That lack of understanding was compounded by the fact that Richmond Yacht Club hosted the next North Americans in mid-August on Berkeley Circle. I'd guess there was some wind. At that time, an experienced professional sailor who was 5" taller and 20 pounds heavier than any other crew won the regatta. Not even the anarchist Trevor B could beat him. That was absolute proof that you had to have an Epsilon. There was now irrefutable evidence that an Epsilon could do well when the sailors hit the shifts and, in a breeze, if the crew was a pro, had superb technique and had twice the righting moment of anyone else. People started buying Epsilons. It took three years to figure out that they were too stiff for the 505.

Meanwhile, the German fleet was struggling. Only second-tier dinghy sailors in Germany sailed the 505. A German with a business sense went to the German worlds a long time ago, finished 78th, and was hooked. Over time, this guy started a boat supply company. His business model was elegant and simple. First, his company would import one manufacturer's hull from England, one sail maker's sails from Denmark, and he would get the spars from one spar maker. The spar maker happened to Superspar. You need to ask that guy why he picked the Superspar. I think the answer is whatever the German word for "business" is. Now he was ready to implement the second part of his plan. He needed to find the most respected dinghy sailor in Germany to sail with him. In the German psyche, there were two great sailors: one from the east and one from the west. The business man called the West German, and he agreed to sail. That marked the beginning of the great explosion in German 505 sailing.

About this time, someone had the wisdom to suggest running the 505 worlds off a topless beach somewhere in Scandinavia. People are still talking about that. Someone else invited Paul Elvstrom to speak. Until he spoke, the sailors were focused on the beach, not masts. His message was simple. You have the most beautiful hull in the world but you need a big spinnaker. That message got people's attention.

Overtime, the class approved a big kite which required a higher spinnaker sheave. That change created a whole set of new problems. The main problem was that you needed to support the mast off the wind. The big kite putt different loads on the rig and the mast looked awful. One early solution was to use a Cumulus that was stiffer sideways. That helped support the mast off the wind. Now, fewer people were buying Ds. A subsequent, and better solution, was to use high trap lines with tweaker or a double spreader rig. The irony is that those changes also support the D but people weren't thinking about that.

Elsewhere in northern Europe, the German business man and the famous West German helm were sailing. The business man was the master organizer, a great crew, and could put together a boat that worked. The helm was a rare talent. Guess what. They started winning. It must be the mast. Ah Hah! They're using a Superspar M2. The size of the German fleet exploded. The Germans figured if the famous helm sailed 505s, they wanted to sail 505s.

Things were brewing in America, too. Team Tuesday got going in southern California when some guy from LA stopped surfing on exotic left breaks off the coast of India and in the south Pacific. Two guys led that group: a helm and a guy who could crew and helm. The second guy couldn't find a crew so he started crewing for the first guy. They learned to get a 505 around the track pretty quickly. They accumulated a lot of gear, including masts, and stored it in a warehouse they rented for a song because it sat on radioactive waste, or something like that. One of the masts they had was a M2. It was stiff and slow so they threw it in the back of the warehouse. They were generous with their knowledge, their time and their money. But those qualities didn't make them smart. After a few years, they decided to sail two separate boats. One boat didn't have a mast. So the former crew went to surfer and said, in effect, "what is the shittiest mast we have?" The surfer thought for half a second and responded, "the M2." The former crew had a plan. He wanted the mast the surfer didn't want, so the surfer could never ask for it back if the former crew made it work. Uhmm.

So the former crew started sailing with one of the best crews in America. They liked the breeze and knew out to hike. They practiced and went well. The former crew also decided to drill holes in the upper section of the M2's sail track to make it bendier for and aft. They were fast. Since the surfer couldn't get the M2 back, he had to airfreight one from England and rig it. Both of those guys are good, and people respect them so other Americans started buying the M2.

Now we have a recipe for a bunch of lemmings to follow these guys off the cliff. The best businessman in the 505 class, one of the very best helms in the world, and some really good sailors in California are using the M2. I can live with that bullshit, but just barely. Then, I heard two comments. An experienced American guy with some logo on his sail said you need a mast as stiff a M2. Another new guy fresh from big boat racing in the local club scene said he just bought a M2 which he described as the "fast mast." They are both nice guys, but they're full of it.

How can I prove my theory? What do we know? We know the Epsilon is too stiff. We know the D goes well up wind. We know the Cumulus is ok. Let's go the numbers. (When reviewing the data, remember that the lower the number, the bendier the section.)

Section Fore/aft bend Side bend Total bend
M2 21.7 14.7 36.4
Cumulus 19.5 14 33.5
Epsilon 20.0 15.5 35.5
D 19.5 12 31.5.


The data show that the M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon fore and aft and is easily the stiffest of the bunch. It is almost as stiff as the Epsilon sideways. Overall, it is by far the stiffest mast. Do me a favor. Ask these chumps why the Epsilon is too stiff and the Superspar M2 isn't.
I gotta go. Thinking about this bullshit has given me a migraine.

Ok K

Just reading up on a little history here.

The BIG question is......Which Mast section did you put in the the container to France?

[mikeholt]

With over 170 boats already entered there may even be an Epsilon on the start line...

[mrpelicano]

Mike - Was the entry list updated to reflect the number of entries because when I looked at it this morning there were only 78 on the .pdf. If the number is really that high it will certainly be a record. Wish I could still race 505's but it's big boats this year and Lasers in 2013. I'm too light to crew regardless of what mast you put in the boat.

[mikeholt]

Here is the updated link:
http://www.srr-saili...scrits5o527.pdf

[mrpelicano]

Wow! Really, really impressive. It looks like every French 505 that has ever sailed is entered.

Best of luck to you in France, Mike!

[505 8351 / 8822]

1339590028[/url]' post='3748991']

1147087987[/url]' post='728748']
At the outset, let me state both my bias and my limitations. I am partial to light weight trapeze dinghies. 14s, 49ers, 18s, A Cats and 505s all interest me. I am also aware of my limitations so when discussing these boats, I usually listen to what the experienced people say and remember it. What strikes me about the 505 guys in particular is that they articulate some supposedly irrefutable truth and then, some years later, announce a new truth which contradicts their earlier conclusion. My conclusion is that the 505s guys, with some important exceptions, have limited imagination and simply parrot what they have been told to think.

First, some exceptions: the guy who runs Waterat is pretty imaginative. He seems to be the first guy to really master the construction of a really good composite dinghy. He also figured out how to build a high aspect centerboard for the 505. I must say it pisses me off that everybody else in the world shamelessly rips off his design. Then, there are a couple of guys from northern California who are great sailors and had the imagination to try some new ideas. It's too bad they never sailed their boat again after sailing all but the last race of the 2004 worlds. The 505 class needs more guys like that.

I could give you a lot of examples of the contradictory bullshit: centerboards must always jibe; nope: you need a jibe stopper; you can't use a ram up; hell no, you must use a ram up but it must connected to the spinnaker halyard; vertical lifting pins are bullshit and a waste of time; wrong: you need a pin that goes up and down, and fore and aft! That crap doesn't bother me too much actually. What really gets on my nerves is the bullshit that people dish out about masts. Let me illustrate my point. Please bear with me. To get to the truth, we need to wade through a lot of crap. Few people know that it took of sea of naked women and Paul Elvstrom to create the current mess.

Back in the day before the Germans took over Europe and Team Tuesday took over Long Beach, most everybody sailed with a D. I am told that the conventional wisdom was that the D was effective because it was bendy sideways so it automatically depowered upwind in a puff. Steve Taylor used an E because he thought the D would break in the Indian Ocean. Most everybody else used the D until a punk with long blond hair worked with Proctor to design the Epsilon. Guys started using it in the 470. A few people had Epsilons as spares in Ireland. And when the wind took down all the carbon rigs, they dropped the Epsilons in and sailed the last race. The last race was in a shifty offshore breeze. Holy shit, the Epsilon is fast when the wind shifts. Let's try one!

People bought Epsilons. They were too stupid to understand that it was stiff as a telephone pole. That lack of understanding was compounded by the fact that Richmond Yacht Club hosted the next North Americans in mid-August on Berkeley Circle. I'd guess there was some wind. At that time, an experienced professional sailor who was 5" taller and 20 pounds heavier than any other crew won the regatta. Not even the anarchist Trevor B could beat him. That was absolute proof that you had to have an Epsilon. There was now irrefutable evidence that an Epsilon could do well when the sailors hit the shifts and, in a breeze, if the crew was a pro, had superb technique and had twice the righting moment of anyone else. People started buying Epsilons. It took three years to figure out that they were too stiff for the 505.

Meanwhile, the German fleet was struggling. Only second-tier dinghy sailors in Germany sailed the 505. A German with a business sense went to the German worlds a long time ago, finished 78th, and was hooked. Over time, this guy started a boat supply company. His business model was elegant and simple. First, his company would import one manufacturer's hull from England, one sail maker's sails from Denmark, and he would get the spars from one spar maker. The spar maker happened to Superspar. You need to ask that guy why he picked the Superspar. I think the answer is whatever the German word for "business" is. Now he was ready to implement the second part of his plan. He needed to find the most respected dinghy sailor in Germany to sail with him. In the German psyche, there were two great sailors: one from the east and one from the west. The business man called the West German, and he agreed to sail. That marked the beginning of the great explosion in German 505 sailing.

About this time, someone had the wisdom to suggest running the 505 worlds off a topless beach somewhere in Scandinavia. People are still talking about that. Someone else invited Paul Elvstrom to speak. Until he spoke, the sailors were focused on the beach, not masts. His message was simple. You have the most beautiful hull in the world but you need a big spinnaker. That message got people's attention.

Overtime, the class approved a big kite which required a higher spinnaker sheave. That change created a whole set of new problems. The main problem was that you needed to support the mast off the wind. The big kite putt different loads on the rig and the mast looked awful. One early solution was to use a Cumulus that was stiffer sideways. That helped support the mast off the wind. Now, fewer people were buying Ds. A subsequent, and better solution, was to use high trap lines with tweaker or a double spreader rig. The irony is that those changes also support the D but people weren't thinking about that.

Elsewhere in northern Europe, the German business man and the famous West German helm were sailing. The business man was the master organizer, a great crew, and could put together a boat that worked. The helm was a rare talent. Guess what. They started winning. It must be the mast. Ah Hah! They're using a Superspar M2. The size of the German fleet exploded. The Germans figured if the famous helm sailed 505s, they wanted to sail 505s.

Things were brewing in America, too. Team Tuesday got going in southern California when some guy from LA stopped surfing on exotic left breaks off the coast of India and in the south Pacific. Two guys led that group: a helm and a guy who could crew and helm. The second guy couldn't find a crew so he started crewing for the first guy. They learned to get a 505 around the track pretty quickly. They accumulated a lot of gear, including masts, and stored it in a warehouse they rented for a song because it sat on radioactive waste, or something like that. One of the masts they had was a M2. It was stiff and slow so they threw it in the back of the warehouse. They were generous with their knowledge, their time and their money. But those qualities didn't make them smart. After a few years, they decided to sail two separate boats. One boat didn't have a mast. So the former crew went to surfer and said, in effect, "what is the shittiest mast we have?" The surfer thought for half a second and responded, "the M2." The former crew had a plan. He wanted the mast the surfer didn't want, so the surfer could never ask for it back if the former crew made it work. Uhmm.

So the former crew started sailing with one of the best crews in America. They liked the breeze and knew out to hike. They practiced and went well. The former crew also decided to drill holes in the upper section of the M2's sail track to make it bendier for and aft. They were fast. Since the surfer couldn't get the M2 back, he had to airfreight one from England and rig it. Both of those guys are good, and people respect them so other Americans started buying the M2.

Now we have a recipe for a bunch of lemmings to follow these guys off the cliff. The best businessman in the 505 class, one of the very best helms in the world, and some really good sailors in California are using the M2. I can live with that bullshit, but just barely. Then, I heard two comments. An experienced American guy with some logo on his sail said you need a mast as stiff a M2. Another new guy fresh from big boat racing in the local club scene said he just bought a M2 which he described as the "fast mast." They are both nice guys, but they're full of it.

How can I prove my theory? What do we know? We know the Epsilon is too stiff. We know the D goes well up wind. We know the Cumulus is ok. Let's go the numbers. (When reviewing the data, remember that the lower the number, the bendier the section.)

Section Fore/aft bend Side bend Total bend
M2 21.7 14.7 36.4
Cumulus 19.5 14 33.5
Epsilon 20.0 15.5 35.5
D 19.5 12 31.5.


The data show that the M2 is significantly stiffer than the Epsilon fore and aft and is easily the stiffest of the bunch. It is almost as stiff as the Epsilon sideways. Overall, it is by far the stiffest mast. Do me a favor. Ask these chumps why the Epsilon is too stiff and the Superspar M2 isn't.
I gotta go. Thinking about this bullshit has given me a migraine.

Ok K

Just reading up on a little history here.

The BIG question is......Which Mast section did you put in the the container to France?

What was Augie using at the ECC's, Alto? What was concluded at Saturday Night's mast discussion?