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#101 Tyler Durden

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 09:53 PM

I always find that on most boats big enough to need both sheets and guys you also have multiple kites so you will be unhooking and repacking. The boats where you're leaving everything hooked up are usually 35' and under and have a single all purpose kite. Of course there will be exceptions, but when the kite's in the bag it would be asking too much to be certain every time that there are no twists in the clew. Good bow work is often about doing the minimum number of steps in each operation.

A similar situation: You have the gear rigged but no kite hooked up yet. Do you:
a. hook each sheet to the lifelines
b. hook the sheets together and hook one to the lifelines
c. hook the sheets together and let them sit on the deck loose?

I go with C, because it removes at least one step when I go to hook up the kite, and keeps me on the rail if I need to pull the gear around to the other side. I generally do half as many steps in each operation as I did 5 years ago, that to me is how I judge that I'm getting better.

#102 doghouse

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 10:14 PM

I go with c as well, but it takes literally tenths of a second to attach sheets separately, and is definitely worth it to me. I tried switching a few years ago, and there was no payoff that I could see, and it took more effort to keep the lazy sheet clear of the pole. But to each is own, if it's working for ya, go with it man

#103 Tyler Durden

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 10:18 PM

Fair enough, and you won't have these problems anymore anyhow if you're on that Farr boat with the pokey thing on the front.

#104 bats

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 11:47 PM


For handling the lazy guy, I pull enough forward that I am ready for the gybe, and the cockpit has it loaded on the winch.


I take what I know I'm gonna need. Put it where I want it and don't worry about the cockpit. There's a couple of really good guys back there. I just don't have to worry about them taking care of business. Until now I've never really thought about it. I trust them(gasp!)


We have taped the braces (guys) at the point where we know there is enough to gybe no matter how shy to shy we're gybing, just pull the brace forward so the tape is near the primary winch. This simple trick has eliminated the brace person getting over-zealous with taking in too much too early in the gybes, also helps if you happen to have someone new doing the brace.

#105 bats

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:02 AM

A similar situation: You have the gear rigged but no kite hooked up yet. Do you:
a. hook each sheet to the lifelines
b. hook the sheets together and hook one to the lifelines
c. hook the sheets together and let them sit on the deck loose?

I go with C, because it removes at least one step when I go to hook up the kite, and keeps me on the rail if I need to pull the gear around to the other side. I generally do half as many steps in each operation as I did 5 years ago, that to me is how I judge that I'm getting better.


It really does depend on the type of racing, if straight W/L and we need to change kites we just un-clip the old one and clip in the new one, when appropriate someone'll go down and move/repack the old kite.

I hook the sheets together and clip them to the kicker. I clip them far enough back that I can lean backward and unclip them without getting off the rail if the gear needs to be dragged around to the other side (clearly depends on the size of the boat but that's a 38 or 40 fter). The problem with using the lifelines is that then you end up fishing around under the jib which is slow and may mean you have to go all the way to leeward. When they're on the kicker I can normally just lean over the pole and clip up.

#106 doghouse

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:33 AM

Fair enough, and you won't have these problems anymore anyhow if you're on that Farr boat with the pokey thing on the front.

:D oh yes, life has become much simpler!

#107 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:49 AM

OK, here's one we had trouble with on another boat in the past, and just reared its ugly head again tonight.

(background)
Dip pole.
Guy clipped to bale of Sheet. Sheet attached to spinnaker.

(issue)
During the gybe, trip pole, guy releases but sheet goes around and winds up under and inside of pole so the pole is now effectively trapped between the two and we waste valuable time explaining that the back of boat needs to release the new sheet that they're trying to start flying on. (read tug-of-war in most cases)

What am I doing wrong? What's causing this? It drives me crazy and I don't know how to fix it!

#108 Riding Point

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:00 AM

OK, here's one we had trouble with on another boat in the past, and just reared its ugly head again tonight.

(background)
Dip pole.
Guy clipped to bale of Sheet. Sheet attached to spinnaker.

(issue)
During the gybe, trip pole, guy releases but sheet goes around and winds up under and inside of pole so the pole is now effectively trapped between the two and we waste valuable time explaining that the back of boat needs to release the new sheet that they're trying to start flying on. (read tug-of-war in most cases)

What am I doing wrong? What's causing this? It drives me crazy and I don't know how to fix it!



Cowboy it!

walk back to about where the shrouds are ... or where ever you need to be to reach the lazy sheet. Grab it and with a bit of finesse, swing it so that it wraps itself around the active guy and can no longer drop below the outboard end of the pole ... called cowboy-ing the lazy sheet ... at least that's what I call it.

#109 doghouse

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:05 AM

OK, here's one we had trouble with on another boat in the past, and just reared its ugly head again tonight.

(background)
Dip pole.
Guy clipped to bale of Sheet. Sheet attached to spinnaker.

(issue)
During the gybe, trip pole, guy releases but sheet goes around and winds up under and inside of pole so the pole is now effectively trapped between the two and we waste valuable time explaining that the back of boat needs to release the new sheet that they're trying to start flying on. (read tug-of-war in most cases)

What am I doing wrong? What's causing this? It drives me crazy and I don't know how to fix it!

This is exactly what I've been talking about earlier in this thread about clipping in the sheets separately to keep them clear. I clip guy and sheet to clew separately w/ the sheet on top, this makes it much easier to keep free since the pole will fall away on it's own. Just make sure during the hoist that you or someone else keeps the slack out of the lazy sheet until the guy is completely pretrimmed so it doesn't get wrapped or pinched, which you should do regardless whether you clip them to each other or individually. Then do what RP said and flick it over the pole

#110 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:13 AM

We've tried that in the past ... and it sometimes worked.

Other times, we could stand there and try to cowboy it but it wouldn't flip up right at the jaws, so while the rest of the line was up and out of the way, the same issue would appear at the tip during the gybe.

We had about 5-6 gybes tonight I think, and it only happened once, but when it happens it frustrates the hell out of me.

Doghouse, on a previous boat we attached them separately and still had the same issue.

Maybe I need to look and see if I'm twisting them when I make the guy during a gybe ... that's the only other reason I can think of, given you guys' explanations.

:unsure:

#111 bats

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:28 AM

We always put the sheet and brace (almost wrote guy, you guys are rubbing off on me :P ) in the beak for the hoist, so if you need to do a quick gybe you know there wont be an issue.

After that, if the sheet ends up under the pole 'just' flick it back on to the top. If you can't flick it back over (takes some practice) and the configuration allows, jump on the pulpit and have them ease the pole forward to do it - but they (being the back of the boat) WON'T be happy. I've only had to do that once and have since practiced flicking it back into place.

Prevention being better than cure...... I think it only happens if the sheet goes slack during the gybe, that's really the only explanation I can come up with and I've seen ...... as long as the trimmer floats the kite OK, it shouldn't happen. Maybe some trimmers can offer their opinions on this one??

#112 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 07:37 AM

I'm with bats on this one stick both lines in the beak (although make sure the beak can take it - have had them pop out on a couple of boats), when you trip the pole both lines have to be above the pole.

I think if the sheet is getting underneath it could possibly be that as the new guy (brace if you must) is pulled on the sheet gets excess slack and falls below the pole.

Finally I disagree with clipping sheets and guys seperately and in fact have worked with an america's cup bowman (he taught me alot of what I know now) and for windward/leeward races we removed one shackle and had both attached to one shackle. I wont go on but I agree with alot of what Tyler has said on the matter.

A quick note for usual suspect about j locks we have velcro sewn to the sheets that wrap round them easier and quicker then elec tape

#113 suider

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 11:00 AM

we removed one shackle and had both attached to one shackle. I wont go on but I agree with alot of what Tyler has said on the matter.


yeah, i was reading through the whole argument (well, ok, difference of opinion) stage of the thread and i was surprised to see this as one of the last posts.... that's what we do (used to do...damn not used to that yet!) on the mumm 30.... this whole 2 shackle thing... pshaw!! why use 2 if you don't have to??.... fine, make the failure argument (for you guys/gals that clip seperately), ok i guess... although i still would rather have them attatched to one another... but the people that clip one shackle to the other.... why?? just attatch both lines to one shackle...

as always, imho...

/c

#114 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 11:51 AM

K, so next question = Kite Peals. How do you do get it done?

On the Maxi our guys have two shackles. I go out to the end of the pole and clip on the new clew. They hoist, and then I spike the old clew.

On the 50'er I have a strop that clips to the bow. Up new kite, spike old kite, clip on guy and spike strop. Obviously waiting for the backenders to do what needs doing.

#115 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 11:55 AM

It doesn't work if you have to change between a sym and asym kite! On the Mumm 30 you don't have that option though.

#116 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:00 PM

It doesn't work if you have to change between a sym and asym kite! On the Mumm 30 you don't have that option though.


Maxi Asym gets tacked to the bow and stays there.

#117 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:03 PM

K, so next question = Kite Peals. How do you do get it done?

On the Maxi our guys have two shackles. I go out to the end of the pole and clip on the new clew. They hoist, and then I spike the old clew.

On the 50'er I have a strop that clips to the bow. Up new kite, spike old kite, clip on guy and spike strop. Obviously waiting for the backenders to do what needs doing.


Both your descriptions make sense to me and can't think of another method off the top of my head although obviously the second method will be slightly slower than the first.


It doesn't work if you have to change between a sym and asym kite! On the Mumm 30 you don't have that option though.


Maxi Asym gets tacked to the bow and stays there.


Sorry was replying to post from suider

#118 suider

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:12 PM

It doesn't work if you have to change between a sym and asym kite! On the Mumm 30 you don't have that option though.


yeah, fair 'nuff.... (and there are assyms for the mumm, btw... pia...!!)

i don't know, i just like the two to one shackle for 95% of situations, i guess....

/c

#119 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:16 PM


It doesn't work if you have to change between a sym and asym kite! On the Mumm 30 you don't have that option though.


yeah, fair 'nuff.... (and there are assyms for the mumm, btw... pia...!!)

i don't know, i just like the two to one shackle for 95% of situations, i guess....

/c


ok never seen one all the ones I have seen or raced use syms! I agree if you can use it go 2-1 everytime!

Excuse my stupidity but what does pia mean?

#120 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:21 PM

Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie

#121 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:32 PM

Ok, painfully honest moment. What's a strop? What does it look like? I've done peels before, but if I've used a strop then I've not known what it's called.

Googling it gives me "a strap of leather for sharpening knives". Somehow I think that's not quite right.

#122 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:36 PM

Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie



Hmmmm Explain the bit about the clews. The only thing I can think of is that your method gets the new kite filled and flying properly sooner. Which of course is good and I'll be making the suggestion, but what do you mean about the clews. In my head it would be tough to get the clews wrong either way.

#123 suider

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:37 PM

Excuse my stupidity but what does pia mean?


pain in ass!!

:lol:

/c

#124 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:40 PM

got you!

#125 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 12:54 PM

Ok, painfully honest moment. What's a strop? What does it look like? I've done peels before, but if I've used a strop then I've not known what it's called.

Googling it gives me "a strap of leather for sharpening knives". Somehow I think that's not quite right.



It's a short piece of line( approx. 30" depends on boat size) with shackles at both ends. One end clips to the bow. The other end clips to the clew. It acts as a temporary tack line so you can sort the old kite. Once sorted you clip the guy to the clew and spike the strop.

although in Remmie does it in reverse order from what I posted earlier. Either way the strop is temporary tack line.

But if you're into leather then. . .

#126 justinnyc

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:11 PM

Ok, painfully honest moment. What's a strop? What does it look like? I've done peels before, but if I've used a strop then I've not known what it's called.

Googling it gives me "a strap of leather for sharpening knives". Somehow I think that's not quite right.


theyre referring to variations on these:

http://mauriprosaili...ry_Code=TYPEESH


Ok, painfully honest moment. What's a strop? What does it look like? I've done peels before, but if I've used a strop then I've not known what it's called.

Googling it gives me "a strap of leather for sharpening knives". Somehow I think that's not quite right.


theyre referring to variations on these:

http://mauriprosaili...ry_Code=TYPEESH


or what was said as well, depending on context.

#127 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:11 PM

Thanks LGS.
As for leather .... ;)

#128 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:16 PM

[/quote]

theyre referring to variations on these:

http://mauriprosaili...ry_Code=TYPEESH
[/quote]

or what was said as well, depending on context.
[/quote]

Those are not it. The linked shackles are what I was refering to earlier for our guys for peeling. The strop would have line between the shackles.

So Bowgirl. Tell us about this leather fetish of yours!

#129 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:19 PM

Nope. Not hijacking a very informative thread, LGS. Not this time.

#130 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:27 PM

oh boo we want to hear about the leather!

#131 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:31 PM


Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie



Hmmmm Explain the bit about the clews. The only thing I can think of is that your method gets the new kite filled and flying properly sooner. Which of course is good and I'll be making the suggestion, but what do you mean about the clews. In my head it would be tough to get the clews wrong either way.



OK, I'm talking pole not sprit (but it translates) for either sym or asym kites...

My method,

1. Climb my fat ass out there
2. Strop the old kite to the pole
3. Spike the old kite off the sheet
4. Haul the new tack out to me
5. Clip the new tack to the sheet
6. Spike the old kite
7. Retrieve strop
8. Slippery-dip back to boring-ville

As I understand your method you strop the new kite, fire the old one off the sheet. At that point, to get the sheet onto new tack and you're screwing with two loaded points if you can pull it off. If you can't your left with your kite stropped to the pole, it's functional but it's you can't gybe it.

I only use a back to back Gibb (Tylska, same sorta thing) clips, no "strop" exactly. The old clew is hard against the pole so no need for the length.

Make sense?

Rgds,

remmie

#132 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:35 PM

think this different type of strop that is being discussed LGS is talking about a strop you attach to the bow of the boat in his second method not one you take out to the end of the pole that look like handcuffs and are referred to as handcuffs (back to backs) by some bow folk.

Remmie your method makes sense if you are going out to the end of the pole

#133 Monkey

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:47 PM



Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie



Hmmmm Explain the bit about the clews. The only thing I can think of is that your method gets the new kite filled and flying properly sooner. Which of course is good and I'll be making the suggestion, but what do you mean about the clews. In my head it would be tough to get the clews wrong either way.



OK, I'm talking pole not sprit (but it translates) for either sym or asym kites...

My method,

1. Climb my fat ass out there
2. Strop the old kite to the pole
3. Spike the old kite off the sheet
4. Haul the new tack out to me
5. Clip the new tack to the sheet
6. Spike the old kite
7. Retrieve strop
8. Slippery-dip back to boring-ville

As I understand your method you strop the new kite, fire the old one off the sheet. At that point, to get the sheet onto new tack and you're screwing with two loaded points if you can pull it off. If you can't your left with your kite stropped to the pole, it's functional but it's you can't gybe it.

I only use a back to back Gibb (Tylska, same sorta thing) clips, no "strop" exactly. The old clew is hard against the pole so no need for the length.

Make sense?

Rgds,

remmie

This works except for one thing. It's a whole lot safer if you attach the kite to the bale of the guy shackle with the peeling shackles or strap (This is in reference to step 2). If you strap it to the pole you're playing with fire. If the guy gets run accidently during all the commotion of the peel, the pole is going to hit the headstay with a whole lot of force. Hopefully just the pole snaps (don't forget you're still on the end of it) without taking the headstay with it. You can figure out what happens if the headstay lets go.

#134 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:47 PM

You can use both types either way around.

I carry a climbing tape loop and a back-to-back so you adapt that to either style, it tends to depend on boat setup rather than technique.

#135 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:47 PM



Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie



Hmmmm Explain the bit about the clews. The only thing I can think of is that your method gets the new kite filled and flying properly sooner. Which of course is good and I'll be making the suggestion, but what do you mean about the clews. In my head it would be tough to get the clews wrong either way.



OK, I'm talking pole not sprit (but it translates) for either sym or asym kites...

My method,

1. Climb my fat ass out there
2. Strop the old kite to the pole
3. Spike the old kite off the sheet
4. Haul the new tack out to me
5. Clip the new tack to the sheet
6. Spike the old kite
7. Retrieve strop
8. Slippery-dip back to boring-ville

As I understand your method you strop the new kite, fire the old one off the sheet. At that point, to get the sheet onto new tack and you're screwing with two loaded points if you can pull it off. If you can't your left with your kite stropped to the pole, it's functional but it's you can't gybe it.

I only use a back to back Gibb (Tylska, same sorta thing) clips, no "strop" exactly. The old clew is hard against the pole so no need for the length.

Make sense?

Rgds,

remmie


Perfect sense thanx. I didn't realize you are stropping direct to the pole inwhich case 30" of line between you're shackles would be bad!!!

Cheers

#136 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 01:56 PM

Nope. Not hijacking a very informative thread, LGS. Not this time.



No Hijacking such a great thread I just couldn't resist.

#137 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:01 PM

We've tried that in the past ... and it sometimes worked.

Other times, we could stand there and try to cowboy it but it wouldn't flip up right at the jaws, so while the rest of the line was up and out of the way, the same issue would appear at the tip during the gybe.

We had about 5-6 gybes tonight I think, and it only happened once, but when it happens it frustrates the hell out of me.

Doghouse, on a previous boat we attached them separately and still had the same issue.

Maybe I need to look and see if I'm twisting them when I make the guy during a gybe ... that's the only other reason I can think of, given you guys' explanations.

:unsure:


After you have completed the gybe and the pole is pulled back, go on the weather side and pull the slack out of the now-lazy sheet. Then put 2-3 wraps around the guy, being sure to wind the wraps toward the inside (so the sheet goes from the top of the pole to the inside of the pole, and around the guy). When the trimmer takes slack out of the sheet in prep for the gybe, the wraps are pulled out and the sheet is on top of the pole. Should the sheet get under the pole due to a cluster during the gybe, then if cowboy-ing it doesn't work, either ease the pole forward to the point you can reach it or climb out it to clear the sheet--then you are clear to gybe when needed.

I don't think that it is likely you are twisting the lines when gybing, this shouldn't cause the sheet to go under the pole, as the pole is down low and foward, while the sheet is up high and flying (unless in light air).

#138 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:06 PM



Only thing I do different is strop the old kite, spike it off the sheet, clip new kite to sheet, hoist new kite, spike old kite off strop.

It makes sure the clews are loaded around the right way and you are clipping things with one side loose at all times. Makes life easier and tends to be a bit quicker.

Rgds,

remmie



Hmmmm Explain the bit about the clews. The only thing I can think of is that your method gets the new kite filled and flying properly sooner. Which of course is good and I'll be making the suggestion, but what do you mean about the clews. In my head it would be tough to get the clews wrong either way.



OK, I'm talking pole not sprit (but it translates) for either sym or asym kites...

My method,

1. Climb my fat ass out there
2. Strop the old kite to the pole
3. Spike the old kite off the sheet
4. Haul the new tack out to me
5. Clip the new tack to the sheet
6. Spike the old kite
7. Retrieve strop
8. Slippery-dip back to boring-ville

As I understand your method you strop the new kite, fire the old one off the sheet. At that point, to get the sheet onto new tack and you're screwing with two loaded points if you can pull it off. If you can't your left with your kite stropped to the pole, it's functional but it's you can't gybe it.

I only use a back to back Gibb (Tylska, same sorta thing) clips, no "strop" exactly. The old clew is hard against the pole so no need for the length.

Make sense?

Rgds,

remmie


Why wouldn't you take the tack of the kite out the pole with you? This is what I have done on boats up to 50' at least (I can see why you wouldn't want to on a Maxi though). In higher winds on a bigger boat, you are just going to want to have the leg banded so it doesn't catch wind and open up before you are ready. Other than that, I am with you on the steps (except for the fat ass part, at this point it is more the gut for me...).

#139 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:19 PM

After you have completed the gybe and the pole is pulled back, go on the weather side and pull the slack out of the now-lazy sheet. Then put 2-3 wraps around the guy, being sure to wind the wraps toward the inside (so the sheet goes from the top of the pole to the inside of the pole, and around the guy). When the trimmer takes slack out of the sheet in prep for the gybe, the wraps are pulled out and the sheet is on top of the pole. Should the sheet get under the pole due to a cluster during the gybe, then if cowboy-ing it doesn't work, either ease the pole forward to the point you can reach it or climb out it to clear the sheet--then you are clear to gybe when needed.

I don't think that it is likely you are twisting the lines when gybing, this shouldn't cause the sheet to go under the pole, as the pole is down low and foward, while the sheet is up high and flying (unless in light air).

It was light last night, which made me wonder about the twisting. But it has also happened in heavy air which is why I'm perplexed.

Given what you guys have been saying then, it's also a matter of how much tension is on the (now) lazy sheet while we're making the guy?

In the meantime, I'll practice the cowboying/looping to get the flick to go all with way to the jaws. Currently it stops about 6-8 inches shy of there.

#140 fiver_24

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:22 PM

I always seem to be 6-8 inches shy as well but it has nothing to do with flicking ability!

#141 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:22 PM

Why wouldn't you take the tack of the kite out the pole with you? This is what I have done on boats up to 50' at least (I can see why you wouldn't want to on a Maxi though). In higher winds on a bigger boat, you are just going to want to have the leg banded so it doesn't catch wind and open up before you are ready. Other than that, I am with you on the steps (except for the fat ass part, at this point it is more the gut for me...).


When peeling from Sym to sym the new clew goes out to the with me on the Maxi too. Unless it's blowing 1000knts. However we fly our Assyms off the bow not the pole so no need to take the tack.

#142 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:24 PM

I always seem to be 6-8 inches shy as well but it has nothing to do with flicking ability!


They make all kinds of pumps and Drugs for that now a days.

#143 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:28 PM


Why wouldn't you take the tack of the kite out the pole with you? This is what I have done on boats up to 50' at least (I can see why you wouldn't want to on a Maxi though). In higher winds on a bigger boat, you are just going to want to have the leg banded so it doesn't catch wind and open up before you are ready. Other than that, I am with you on the steps (except for the fat ass part, at this point it is more the gut for me...).


When peeling from Sym to sym the new clew goes out to the with me on the Maxi too. Unless it's blowing 1000knts. However we fly our Assyms off the bow not the pole so no need to take the tack.


When you said you didn't have to worry about light winds, I didn't think that they were THAT strong! :)

#144 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:33 PM

When you said you didn't have to worry about light winds, I didn't think that they were THAT strong! :)


Hehe. It's a great area to go sailing!!

#145 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:35 PM

It was light last night, which made me wonder about the twisting. But it has also happened in heavy air which is why I'm perplexed.

Given what you guys have been saying then, it's also a matter of how much tension is on the (now) lazy sheet while we're making the guy?

In the meantime, I'll practice the cowboying/looping to get the flick to go all with way to the jaws. Currently it stops about 6-8 inches shy of there.


During the gybes, the trimmer should be flying the kite by both of the sheets, with the guys being slack. In real light air (<5 knots), try not using the guys at all, and just do sheet-to-sheet gybes.

For the s-2-s gybe, as the boat turns down the pole is pulled back. Then, trip the pole and swing it forward, walking toward the bow during this time. Help the kite rotate around the forestay as nessesary, keeping the foot in your fingertips. When you get to the clew, keep a hold of it and drop the sheet into the jaws of the pole. The pole will then be kept about a foot off the forestay as the boat heads up to get wind in the sails. No, this isn't a real quick maneuver, but everything is moving slow and there isn't a lot of disturbance going on in the process.

#146 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:38 PM


When you said you didn't have to worry about light winds, I didn't think that they were THAT strong! :)


Hehe. It's a great area to go sailing!!


Or anything else for that matter. It must really make you laugh to think about your family being back in NY in January.

#147 Riding Point

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:41 PM

So Bowgirl. Tell us about this leather fetish of yours!


Perhaps her fetish is handcuffs ... seems fitting afterall ...

#148 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:42 PM



When you said you didn't have to worry about light winds, I didn't think that they were THAT strong! :)


Hehe. It's a great area to go sailing!!


Or anything else for that matter. It must really make you laugh to think about your family being back in NY in January.


It's all relative. Right now weather is comprable. In November I'll start gloating.

#149 Bowgirl

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:01 PM

During the gybes, the trimmer should be flying the kite by both of the sheets, with the guys being slack. In real light air (<5 knots), try not using the guys at all, and just do sheet-to-sheet gybes.

For the s-2-s gybe, as the boat turns down the pole is pulled back. Then, trip the pole and swing it forward, walking toward the bow during this time. Help the kite rotate around the forestay as nessesary, keeping the foot in your fingertips. When you get to the clew, keep a hold of it and drop the sheet into the jaws of the pole. The pole will then be kept about a foot off the forestay as the boat heads up to get wind in the sails. No, this isn't a real quick maneuver, but everything is moving slow and there isn't a lot of disturbance going on in the process.

Slack guys ... in my dreams! I've gotten into the habit of taking miles of slack forward on the lazy guy because invariably it disappears by the foot before the pole's even made. <_<

Thanks Brian, you provide helpful info.

#150 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:15 PM

Slack guys ... in my dreams! Thanks Brian, you provide helpful info.


Slack Guys. Is that the male equivalent of a Loose woman?

Seriously though. This has turned into a great thread. (obviously it's about the Bow!!)

What other manuvers can we talk about. We've done Gybes and Peels. What else do we do?

#151 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:18 PM


During the gybes, the trimmer should be flying the kite by both of the sheets, with the guys being slack. In real light air (<5 knots), try not using the guys at all, and just do sheet-to-sheet gybes.

For the s-2-s gybe, as the boat turns down the pole is pulled back. Then, trip the pole and swing it forward, walking toward the bow during this time. Help the kite rotate around the forestay as nessesary, keeping the foot in your fingertips. When you get to the clew, keep a hold of it and drop the sheet into the jaws of the pole. The pole will then be kept about a foot off the forestay as the boat heads up to get wind in the sails. No, this isn't a real quick maneuver, but everything is moving slow and there isn't a lot of disturbance going on in the process.

Slack guys ... in my dreams! I've gotten into the habit of taking miles of slack forward on the lazy guy because invariably it disappears by the foot before the pole's even made. <_<

Thanks Brian, you provide helpful info.


Ah yes, the over zealous trimmer pulling the guy back when the "trip" is called, rather than "made". This is then followed by the "on't trim the new until I have called 'made'" conversation (which inevitably has already been started by the helm or tactician by the time I get back there).

#152 jeff carver

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:19 PM

KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up

#153 Brian

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:21 PM

What other manuvers can we talk about. We've done Gybes and Peels. What else do we do?


Coil all the lines, flake all of the headsails, help roll the main after the race while everyone else seems to be enjoying a beer?

#154 RATM

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:33 PM

KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up



So let me get this right, you would gybe a J/35, end-for-end, with one set of strings, in 18kts?

This weekend I watched a Schock 35 screw up a gybe in 12 without lazys. They had three dudes on the foredeck trying to push that pole out.

What's so bad about double sheets and guys? I think they make things easier.

#155 galatsea

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:40 PM

Lots of good tips already here ....

The 3 biggies to repeat.
1. Set up the bow yourself.
2. Don't forget to look up as well as around the bow. (sounds stupid, but if you don't it will make you look stupid)
3. Engage brain at all times

A couple of others.
1. Get up the mast every once in a while with some Mclube.
2. If you've never been up the mast - get up there and see close hand what you're playing with from the deck. It will help you figure out why things aren't working quickly when you need to know quickly.
3. Go play mast on some other boats. The more experience you have with different scenarios & set ups the more omnipotent you will seem.
4. Go play trim & pit on the boat - it helps direct the "appropriate" remark to the right person during the screw up.

And remember - 9/10 when things go wrong on the bow, it's because some one in the cockpit has screwed up. - there's no point in forcing something that some fat bastard is sitting on. Audible, gentle encouragement will be needed to get the forementioned lardy ass relocated.

G.

#156 hobot

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:40 PM


KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up



So let me get this right, you would gybe a J/35, end-for-end, with one set of strings, in 18kts?

This weekend I watched a Schock 35 screw up a gybe in 12 without lazys. They had three dudes on the foredeck trying to push that pole out.

What's so bad about double sheets and guys? I think they make things easier.


Maybe the skipper should have held it DDW for another couple of seconds.

#157 jeff carver

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:45 PM


KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up



So let me get this right, you would gybe a J/35, end-for-end, with one set of strings, in 18kts?

This weekend I watched a Schock 35 screw up a gybe in 12 without lazys. They had three dudes on the foredeck trying to push that pole out.

What's so bad about double sheets and guys? I think they make things easier.


nope....i'd dip it

#158 jeff carver

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:46 PM



KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up



So let me get this right, you would gybe a J/35, end-for-end, with one set of strings, in 18kts?

This weekend I watched a Schock 35 screw up a gybe in 12 without lazys. They had three dudes on the foredeck trying to push that pole out.

What's so bad about double sheets and guys? I think they make things easier.


Maybe the skipper should have held it DDW for another couple of seconds.


maybe....

#159 TsunamiMike

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:52 PM

Read through to this point and found the discussion of hooking sheets and guys seperately to the spin clew interesting. On a related note is the discussion of one shackle vs. two.

We have seperate sheets and guys, each with shackles. I work on sister boats that use two lines to one shackle. Personally, I like them seperate with each line having a shackle. Guy clips to sheet; sheet clips to clew (Boat in question is a Bene 40.7). If a line gets buried in a sail (after a douse being one example), having the ability to disconnect one makes it easier to clean up. If it gets light, we drop the guy off (and if it gets lighter, we have a seperate set of light air sheets we use). Peels use the guy as a sheet until we get the other chute stowed.

To help prevent lines getting twisted and looped, I set the boat up the same way every morning about an hour before the rest of the crew gets there. The spin pole gets hooked up first with downhaul and topper set for bearaway. Jib cars get run back next. Attach blocks to usual locations, along with tweakers. Finally, set up sheets and guys in this order:

1. Jib Sheets
2. Guys
3. Spin Sheets

Everything gets clipped together with the starboard sheet - guy hanging off the port sheet, under the port guy attachment. Port sheet gets clipped to the lowest lifeline in front of a stanchion. Both starboard sheet and guy get loaded into the pole jaws. The starboard sheet and guy also get a couple very loose bands of tape between the shackle and the jaws. This helps make sure both lines come back together during the hoist, thus preventing the lazy spin sheet loop at the jaws.

Rigging in the order above puts the spin sheet above everything and reduces mistakes - at least for me. Don't let the rest of the crew help. If other crew shows up early I have them dig sails out of the forward V berth. I also strongly recommend the proper mood music for this B) .

If the lazy sheet does go under the pole, it can be fixed from midships. Get a fair amount of slack in the lazy sheet, stand up holding the loose line out over the lifeline, and then flick your wrist forward up and out. This should send a "wave" of line toward the jaws of the pole, and when the "wave" hits the shackle it dissipates and lands the sheet on top of the jaws. It takes some practice, but after a few times it gets very easy. This will not work if the lines are twisted because the wave will dissipate before hitting the shackle.

Gybe set only requires one shackle to be released from the lifeline after the spin halyard is connected to it. Cockpit crew pulls gear around after I trip the pole.

#160 Bob Marley

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 03:55 PM

We sail a Farr 10/20 (about 35'), and have two poles - one dip and one end-for-end. Except for the Pacific Cup, we haven't had the dip pole on in two years. Last Wilson Cup it was blowing solid 24s and we end-for-ended with single sheets, no worries. Granted, the crew has been together for a while, and after about four years I think I've just about taught them not to start trimming too hard until I yell "made." At least most of the time.... One problem that I have sometimes with new guys in the back is that they uncleat the foreguy on the gybe, thinking they're doing me a favor by giving me some room, but then the pole skies and I can't push it forward.. I usually teach them to pull about 18" of foreguy out, just before the gybe, and then re-cleat it to keep the pole horizontal. Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?

#161 jeff carver

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

Granted, the crew has been together for a while,


ta-da

i got beat to death awhile ago in another thread over the issue of dip pole with single sheet and guy

good crew with time together and knowing the boat.....priceless

when the skipper said "gybing" the only other words spoken were trip, made and please pass me a sandwich

#162 hobot

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:04 PM




KISS.....if your talking double sheets and guys on less than 40 feet in less than 20kts you have already doubled the complexity and risk of screw up



So let me get this right, you would gybe a J/35, end-for-end, with one set of strings, in 18kts?

This weekend I watched a Schock 35 screw up a gybe in 12 without lazys. They had three dudes on the foredeck trying to push that pole out.

What's so bad about double sheets and guys? I think they make things easier.


Maybe the skipper should have held it DDW for another couple of seconds.


maybe....


I should have added, the crew working the guy should have let off a bit too.

#163 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:08 PM


What other manuvers can we talk about. We've done Gybes and Peels. What else do we do?


Coil all the lines, flake all of the headsails, help roll the main after the race while everyone else seems to be enjoying a beer?


I will Coil all my lines, flake all headsails, and generally help clean the boat. BUT I will let others flake the main unless I'm specifically asked. The Main hangs out over the cockpit, comes down in the cockpit, let the cockpit deal with it. THere's only one. Chances are I've already Packed two or three kites, and a couple of jibs before they start on the main. I'll just find something else that needs attention at that time.

#164 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:19 PM

One problem that I have sometimes with new guys in the back is that they uncleat the foreguy on the gybe, thinking they're doing me a favor by giving me some room, but then the pole skies and I can't push it forward.. I usually teach them to pull about 18" of foreguy out, just before the gybe, and then re-cleat it to keep the pole horizontal. Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?


I like my cockpit to leave the Foreguy and Topper alone.

Sheet end of the pole gets tripped first. Followed immediately by the mast end. Continuous Trip line with something to keep it attached to the pole in the middle. (Keeps it from sagging and Snagging)

#165 Tax Man

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:32 PM

The only permanent fix for the sheet under the pole problem is to switch to an end-for-end. Then you just slide the pole out from between the two lines and you are clear.

With the dip pole you can mimic this solution by disconnecting at the mast and pulling the whole pole inboard to clear the sheet. Clumsy, ugly and not recommended in heavy air, but it will clear things faster than trying to flip sheets / adjust lines and stuff once the boat has started the gybe.

#166 misthos

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 04:36 PM

Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?


I do bow on a few different J/30's and only one uses a pole without a continuous trip line. With the non-continuous trip line I have to trip the butt end first and I can't get my hand on the outboard end trip line until I have made the new guy and pushed the pole at least a few feet out. This is because the non-continuous trip lines do not extend to the opposite pole end. This is not my favorite set up for a pole, especially since the foot of the chute is being closed by the pole for at least a couple of seconds.

With the continuous trip line I prefer trying to trip both at one time. In nice breeze this will work at least 75% of the time. If the outboard does not trip with the butt end then a little twist of the pole will ensure the outboard end is tripped.

I've always wondered why some bowmen take a continuous trip line and tape it in the middle to make two separate trip lines. I have seen the tape catch the trip line and keep one end open on more than one occasion.

#167 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:07 PM

I've always wondered why some bowmen take a continuous trip line and tape it in the middle to make two separate trip lines. I have seen the tape catch the trip line and keep one end open on more than one occasion.


Well if you're taping it to the pole of course you're going to have problems. In fact if you tape it you have just created a NON continous trip line. I don't know what to call it, but it's a plastic loop that the line runs through. Same type of thing they run the mainsheet through on a Laser to keep it from sagging and decapitating you. It's fixed to the pole and the line runs free through it. No worries no sag.

#168 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:16 PM

Why wouldn't you take the tack of the kite out the pole with you? This is what I have done on boats up to 50' at least (I can see why you wouldn't want to on a Maxi though). In higher winds on a bigger boat, you are just going to want to have the leg banded so it doesn't catch wind and open up before you are ready. Other than that, I am with you on the steps (except for the fat ass part, at this point it is more the gut for me...).


Cause it's a heap easy just climb yourself out there, clip yourself out there, get comfy (make sure you nuts are sitting right in your harness, syke yourself up, admire the scenery, make same helpful helming observations, etc) and then have your masthand feed the tack out to you pulling it out on a bit of line. Lots easier than having it hang off you, also definately not a fan of being directly attached to sail, unless you hold onto it while you climb in which case you're going to be slower getting out there.

Rgds,

remmie

#169 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:22 PM

I do bow on a few different J/30's and only one uses a pole without a continuous trip line. With the non-continuous trip line I have to trip the butt end first and I can't get my hand on the outboard end trip line until I have made the new guy and pushed the pole at least a few feet out. This is because the non-continuous trip lines do not extend to the opposite pole end. This is not my favorite set up for a pole, especially since the foot of the chute is being closed by the pole for at least a couple of seconds.

With the continuous trip line I prefer trying to trip both at one time. In nice breeze this will work at least 75% of the time. If the outboard does not trip with the butt end then a little twist of the pole will ensure the outboard end is tripped.

I've always wondered why some bowmen take a continuous trip line and tape it in the middle to make two separate trip lines. I have seen the tape catch the trip line and keep one end open on more than one occasion.


I've only ever seen a non-continuous trip line once and it lasted about 5 minutes after I got on the boat. Evil, evil things; and the way I gybe is actually conducive to separate trip lines, I like having both ends clipped mid-gybe.

Taping the middle is something some do cause they pull down on the trip line (and accidently trip both ends) rather than pulling in a direction. Don't even start me on this idea, you need to be able to trip either end from anywhere on the pole.

Rgds,

remmie

#170 Hike, Bitches!

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:25 PM

Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?


Single sheets, one boat has continuous trip line, the other doubles (prefer continuous) - 2:1 twings at mid ships, and I have the topper cleated at the mast. This is the best ever for keeping your bow clear..you control it all...let the pit deal with the spin halyard. On a gybe I can drop the topper 6" before the gybe to give me enough slack and avoid the sky from easing the downfucker.

A question for pitman260 if he checks in...it sounds like you guys run double sheets & guys??

#171 remmie

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:31 PM

Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?


Requires a continuous trip line...

Stand forward of everything, plant your feet, on a 30fter you probably won't have to move.
Preload jib sheet around the pole with your hand through the loop so you don't have to worry about.
Butt off, onto new brace/guy.
Skate pole over till you have it in the middle.
Rotate the pole, as you do so you'll actually tend to rotate the sail around the boat
As you come towards the end of the rotation trip the old brace/guy it will naturally come clear
New butt on, made.

Rgds,

remmie

#172 Colin

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 05:40 PM


Question for single sheet sailors: do you trip the butt end first, the outboard end first, or try to do both together? Do you have a continuous trip line that runs the whole length of the pole, or do you have two trip lines, one for each end?



As you come towards the end of the rotation trip the old brace/guy it will naturally come clear
New butt on, made.

Rgds,

remmie

sounds about right, but why do you leave the old guy in the pole so long? i always bust that out at the same time that i take the pole off the mast....

#173 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 07:21 PM

[quote name='Colin' date='Jun 15 2006, 05:40 PM' post='772294']
[/quote]
sounds about right, but why do you leave the old guy in the pole so long? i always bust that out at the same time that i take the pole off the mast....
[/quote]

In heavier air it helps keep the kite under control.

#174 remmie

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 03:47 AM

Perzactly,
o you control the sail (you can turn it around the boat
o it makes the pole solid (good for your balance and safety)

I think it's a bit "special" (i.e. little men in white coats and straight jacket special) don't think I've seen anyone else do it the same, i.e. forward, load both ends, rotate the sail around the boat. You have to be happy about staying onboard and takes a bit of grunt but when you get a crew who know how you do it it's a fast way to gybe. It's good for a gybing duel, you never actually move, just plant your feet and gybe like a mofo; gives you more time to abuse the other decky, and also good short handed technique, with or without a mast hand doesn't really matter; means you can trade the weight for tourist rail meat with large PFDs. ;)

Works for me, think that's the cardinal rule, find a system that works for you, refine it and get fast at it.

Rgds,

remmie

#175 remmie

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 06:27 AM

Just before we gybe, our spin trimmer moves to center, grabs the current guy, keeping the sheet. (With grinders if it's really blowing stink) We establish a steady turn to DDW, and the trimmer walks the kite to center/front. I stop (or nearly stop) at DDW, calling trip just before we get there. Bow has new guy lightly in hand, pulls trip, slides pole across, slaps new guy into end, and makes the new inboard, I resume the turn, and we're off to the races. In heavier air, we may slightly choke the twings to make the kite behave better mid-gybe, and bow has to get the pole down to a good height to ocntrol it.

Unless it's sloppy, or your driving an old IOR beast, holding the boat at DDW shouldn't be hard, and it's the driver's job. If you're rolling, or in a major seaway, gybe prep ought to include choking the kite, easing the vang a bit, and getting the platform as stable as possible. If it's really sloppy, have someone looking aft find you a good flat spot to gybe in. There's no reason to make it harder than it needs to be.


This technique is only going to be effective on a small boat in light winds and waves.

If you want to feel some foredeck love you should be doing a gentle S do NOT head DDW. Dive slightly by the lee as the bow is taking the pole off the mast and clip onto the new tack (unloads the pole off the mast and brings the new tack into the boat), slightly above as they take off the old tack and put it on the mast (brings the old tack into the boat to unclip and makes it easier on the mast); throw into your main gybe.

Once you get the timing down your gybes will be quicker and easier but it takes practice and a deckie and helm that know it other and feel the love. :D

Rgds,

remmie

#176 Bob Marley

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:13 AM

Thanks for all of the input. In my experience, some drivers have a problem with the pole being attached to both clews of the chute for even a few seconds. It seems like, as long as there's a bit of breeze, they should be able to fly it like that for a minute. Granted, in a perfect world, the pole would release from the mast and the guy as soon as you pull the trip cord, but we all know that doesn't always happen. Seems like the way to go in that case is just to get the butt onto the new guy, push the end forward and then get the pole off the old guy and onto the mast ASAP. I guess the back enders will figure it out eventually....

#177 fiver_24

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:46 AM

definitely agree with remmie who just hit the nail on the head with the comment about finding what works for you, everyone has little nuances in their bow technique.

Ok new question - pre start how accurate does everyone think their line calls are from the bow and what method do you use to judge it?

I reckon (when I'm not still drunk) I have it down to quarter boat length most of the time. transits and boats around are what I take most info from, anything else to consider?

#178 doghouse

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 10:13 AM

definitely agree with remmie who just hit the nail on the head with the comment about finding what works for you, everyone has little nuances in their bow technique.

Ok new question - pre start how accurate does everyone think their line calls are from the bow and what method do you use to judge it?

I reckon (when I'm not still drunk) I have it down to quarter boat length most of the time. transits and boats around are what I take most info from, anything else to consider?

I try for a point to range on shore on each end of the line , but get at least one. When the pin/boat lines up with your point on shore, you're there

#179 DeadFuckingLast

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 11:14 AM

"Seventh buy lots of cheap sunglasses."

i could have used that advice several hundred dollars ago.

however, Native Eyewear and Smith Eyewear both have lifetime guarantees.


Do this guarantees include drowning? ;)

#180 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 11:49 AM

definitely agree with remmie who just hit the nail on the head with the comment about finding what works for you, everyone has little nuances in their bow technique.

Ok new question - pre start how accurate does everyone think their line calls are from the bow and what method do you use to judge it?

I reckon (when I'm not still drunk) I have it down to quarter boat length most of the time. transits and boats around are what I take most info from, anything else to consider?

I try for a point to range on shore on each end of the line , but get at least one. When the pin/boat lines up with your point on shore, you're there


I guess. My drivers never transit the line properly. I've only gotten us on the wrong side once(I'm still convinced we weren't over!!!). Most of the time I'm wishing they would power up faster and get going. Between my wishing they'd power up and the helm doing is best to ignore me we usually get it pretty close. Half a length.

#181 magnum

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 02:59 PM

As newbie bowman I thank you guys for al lot of helpfull tips and advice for a novice bowman. I started last Oktober and the owner, regular crew and me moved this year to an X-36S

I have a question:

On this X we have a furling jib and and the standard set up with double lines down wind looks something like pic. 1. Double schackle guy attached to sheet. Lazy guy brought forward for quick gybing.

Anyone a good suggestion/tip for the following:
When trip is being made the pole will bring the lose jib sheet forward and the part between the pole end and the clew ends up in a loop between the end of the pole and clew of the jib. (sort of illustrated in pic 2.)

When the pole ends on deck the whole loop mixes up with the pole end. And since the beak closes on a first come first serve basis it's rugular that the jib sheet is in first before I can get the new guy in.

What do I do wrong here?

Attached File  deklayout_36S.png   10.15K   177 downloads
pic 1.

Attached File  deklayout_36S_trip.PNG   8.85K   151 downloads
pic 2.


My own idea is:
A. instruct the the back enders that before the pole starts to swing someone puts his foot on the jibsheet which could prevent the jib sheet from foulding in the first place. As a newbie bowman I don't want to suggest stupid sollutions that do not work.

B. to release the jib sheets completely. This makes gibing easy but how will I bring the jib sheet in front of the the topping lift again. I remove them on the final downwind leg but it's not easy on the first downwind leg. (f.y.i. We keep the topping lift attached going windward).

C. skip the whole furling idea and lower the jib on the downwind leg as it takes less time to get it down then furling. The furling system is only so so and takes a while

A. B. C.? or any other suggestions or tip of the day

p.s. All positings on peeling are very helpfull but could be even more clear with a pic. or drawing

#182 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 03:40 PM

As newbie bowman I thank you guys for al lot of helpfull tips and advice for a novice bowman. I started last Oktober and the owner, regular crew and me moved this year to an X-36S

I have a question:

On this X we have a furling jib and and the standard set up with double lines down wind looks something like pic. 1. Double schackle guy attached to sheet. Lazy guy brought forward for quick gybing.

Anyone a good suggestion/tip for the following:
When trip is being made the pole will bring the lose jib sheet forward and the part between the pole end and the clew ends up in a loop between the end of the pole and clew of the jib. (sort of illustrated in pic 2.)

When the pole ends on deck the whole loop mixes up with the pole end. And since the beak closes on a first come first serve basis it's rugular that the jib sheet is in first before I can get the new guy in.

What do I do wrong here?

Attached File  deklayout_36S.png   10.15K   177 downloads
pic 1.

Attached File  deklayout_36S_trip.PNG   8.85K   151 downloads
pic 2.


My own idea is:
A. instruct the the back enders that before the pole starts to swing someone puts his foot on the jibsheet which could prevent the jib sheet from foulding in the first place. As a newbie bowman I don't want to suggest stupid sollutions that do not work.

B. to release the jib sheets completely. This makes gibing easy but how will I bring the jib sheet in front of the the topping lift again. I remove them on the final downwind leg but it's not easy on the first downwind leg. (f.y.i. We keep the topping lift attached going windward).

C. skip the whole furling idea and lower the jib on the downwind leg as it takes less time to get it down then furling. The furling system is only so so and takes a while

A. B. C.? or any other suggestions or tip of the day

p.s. All positings on peeling are very helpfull but could be even more clear with a pic. or drawing


Pics and Diagrams are great, but if you're gonna have success on the pointy end you have got to be able to visualize ALL manouvers in your head. Close your eyes and see what it's all supposed to look like. Then run the manouver through in your head.

Why furling is slower than dropping your jib I don't know, but that just sounds wrong. Especially the fact that furling keeps you off the bow. If you've read anything here you'll know that staying off the front of the boat is a priority. Have your owner look at his furling system and do a little maintanence.

In truth with the jib furled I fail to see how the sheets get in the way. Have them deal with them in the cockpit so they don't sag down to the deck, and then just make sure you get the pole under them when plugging in the kite/gybing.

So I guess my answer to you is either A or C

Just cause you're a newbie doesn't mean you can't tell when something isn't working. Have a discussion with them rather than just opening up and telling them what to do. Even if you know better than them a suggestion goes a lot further than orders do. The cockpit dwellers (Most especially the captain) seem to think orders are supposed to go from the back to the front.

#183 Bob Marley

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 04:39 PM

Ok new question - pre start how accurate does everyone think their line calls are from the bow and what method do you use to judge it?



I'm with doghouse - before the race, go out to the far end of the line and sight down it to a point on shore (for us, its usually the flagpole at the clubhouse). Then, when you're in pre-start, you can sight the pin in relation to the range that you previously identified and gauge how close to the line you are and when you will cross it without having to look over your shoulder at the other end of the line (assuming that you can even see it with other starters in the way....).

#184 doghouse

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:21 PM


definitely agree with remmie who just hit the nail on the head with the comment about finding what works for you, everyone has little nuances in their bow technique.

Ok new question - pre start how accurate does everyone think their line calls are from the bow and what method do you use to judge it?

I reckon (when I'm not still drunk) I have it down to quarter boat length most of the time. transits and boats around are what I take most info from, anything else to consider?

I try for a point to range on shore on each end of the line , but get at least one. When the pin/boat lines up with your point on shore, you're there


I guess. My drivers never transit the line properly. I've only gotten us on the wrong side once(I'm still convinced we weren't over!!!). Most of the time I'm wishing they would power up faster and get going. Between my wishing they'd power up and the helm doing is best to ignore me we usually get it pretty close. Half a length.

Get em to do it right, for your sake. Just pass out side the pin or committee, and when they line up, get your range on the opposite shore. Repeat for other side you if can, but it's not always possible

#185 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:38 PM

Get em to do it right, for your sake. Just pass out side the pin or committee, and when they line up, get your range on the opposite shore. Repeat for other side you if can, but it's not always possible


Definitely can't do other side. I'd be looking out to sea.

#186 doghouse

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:41 PM

Yeah, sucks when it happens like that, which is all to often

#187 Monkey

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 01:31 AM

Alright Tim, I guess my biggest question for you is how lazy are you? The lazier the better. Everyone else has already provided some great technical knowledge, but now it's time for the important part. The best bow people you'll ever see are the ones that despise doing any actual physical effort. It might seem like we're hardcore dedicated sailors when we repack kites, rerig boats, climb up rigs, etc., but not really. We're only doing that because the half-assed effort it takes to double check everything is so much easier than having to fix it on the fly. Take your time and make sure that you do everything right on the first try. I can not emphasize that last sentence enough times. Even if you're a little slow, getting it right on the first try will gain you respect from the rest of the boat, but more importantly, will buy you all sorts of free time sitting on the rail to figure out how to nail the owner's daughter.

#188 fiver_24

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 08:17 AM

but more importantly, will buy you all sorts of free time sitting on the rail to figure out how to nail the owner's daughter.


And when you do finally figure that out remember to cover your little friend, the last thing any Bowman wants is to be tied down to an owner becasue he had to marry the daughter after getting her pregnant!! :D

#189 Mr Adventure (aka craig)

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 08:43 AM


but more importantly, will buy you all sorts of free time sitting on the rail to figure out how to nail the owner's daughter.


And when you do finally figure that out remember to cover your little friend, the last thing any Bowman wants is to be tied down to an owner becasue he had to marry the daughter after getting her pregnant!! :D



depends on how rich dad is doesn't it

#190 Mr Adventure (aka craig)

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 08:44 AM

go back to college and then get a real job so you own the programme so you don't have to the bow ever

#191 remmie

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:02 PM

So the most important part of doing the bow is to be REALLY REALLY hung over.

Alright Tim, I guess my biggest question for you is how lazy are you? The lazier the better.

So true!!! :D

go back to college and then get a real job so you own the programme so you don't have to the bow ever

And become the worst skipper to ever be inflicted on the foredecking world.

Rgds,

remmie

#192 magnum

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 03:15 PM


As newbie bowman I thank you guys for al lot of helpfull tips and advice for a novice bowman. I started last Oktober and the owner, regular crew and me moved this year to an X-36S

I have a question:

On this X we have a furling jib and and the standard set up with double lines down wind looks something like pic. 1. Double schackle guy attached to sheet. Lazy guy brought forward for quick gybing.

Anyone a good suggestion/tip for the following:
When trip is being made the pole will bring the lose jib sheet forward and the part between the pole end and the clew ends up in a loop between the end of the pole and clew of the jib. (sort of illustrated in pic 2.)

When the pole ends on deck the whole loop mixes up with the pole end. And since the beak closes on a first come first serve basis it's rugular that the jib sheet is in first before I can get the new guy in.

What do I do wrong here?

Attached File  deklayout_36S.png   10.15K   177 downloads
pic 1.

Attached File  deklayout_36S_trip.PNG   8.85K   151 downloads
pic 2.


My own idea is:
A. instruct the the back enders that before the pole starts to swing someone puts his foot on the jibsheet which could prevent the jib sheet from foulding in the first place. As a newbie bowman I don't want to suggest stupid sollutions that do not work.

B. to release the jib sheets completely. This makes gibing easy but how will I bring the jib sheet in front of the the topping lift again. I remove them on the final downwind leg but it's not easy on the first downwind leg. (f.y.i. We keep the topping lift attached going windward).

C. skip the whole furling idea and lower the jib on the downwind leg as it takes less time to get it down then furling. The furling system is only so so and takes a while

A. B. C.? or any other suggestions or tip of the day

p.s. All positings on peeling are very helpfull but could be even more clear with a pic. or drawing


Pics and Diagrams are great, but if you're gonna have success on the pointy end you have got to be able to visualize ALL manouvers in your head. Close your eyes and see what it's all supposed to look like. Then run the manouver through in your head.

Why furling is slower than dropping your jib I don't know, but that just sounds wrong. Especially the fact that furling keeps you off the bow. If you've read anything here you'll know that staying off the front of the boat is a priority. Have your owner look at his furling system and do a little maintanence.

In truth with the jib furled I fail to see how the sheets get in the way. Have them deal with them in the cockpit so they don't sag down to the deck, and then just make sure you get the pole under them when plugging in the kite/gybing.

So I guess my answer to you is either A or C


I will look into the whole furling problems next regatta. The furling systems has an endless line which starts to glide over the drum when applying large force on it. Perhaps to much tension on the backstay on a fairly tight rig increases problems.

Perhaps the first top view perspective was not that clear. This more detailed side vieuw pic makes it more clear


Attached File  deklayout_36S_trip_problem_area.png   8.6K   192 downloads
pic 3.


Helpfull to comment?

#193 Bob Marley

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:11 PM

Even with end-for-end poles, the jib sheets seem to have a way of finding themselves in the pole ends on gybes. The topping lift (or it's bridle) is like a ramp that leads them right in. However, there shouldn't be any tension on them, so they shouldn't trip the pole jaws - you just have to clear them before you put the guy in. If you have a ton of people in the back, you could ask one of them to apply some tension to the jib sheet at the start of the gybe - that might keep it in the air and out of the jaws...

#194 remmie

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:13 PM

First thing first, drop the idea that the jib sheet needs to go over the spinnaker pole.

Set a couple occy straps/clips to hold the jib sheets right at deck level at the bow so your always working over the top of them.

Rgds,

remmie

#195 Bob Marley

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:27 PM

Remmie,

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but with the jib sheets under the pole, what's your procedure when you're rounding the mark and need to raise the jib with the chute still up and then drop the chute/sheet in the jib (and, knowing my helmsman, probably need to tack within three boatlengths of the mark)???

#196 hobot

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 04:37 PM

I hate trying to toss the sheet over the t-lift to bring it back to the sail again so it is "clear", alot of work for very little gain. your butt needs to be on the rail. If your good and you've been on the crew for awhile, you are anticipating what the helm is going to be doing. the sheet UNDER the t-lift but over the pole at the butt end (dip pole) can be resolved very quickly if the pit,mast and f-deck are one. CVA - Communicate, Visualize, Anticipate.

#197 remmie

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 06:10 PM

Remmie,

Forgive me if I'm missing the obvious, but with the jib sheets under the pole, what's your procedure when you're rounding the mark and need to raise the jib with the chute still up and then drop the chute/sheet in the jib (and, knowing my helmsman, probably need to tack within three boatlengths of the mark)???


EDIT : Yeah, what the hobbit said.

You can still raise the jib with no worries, the loaded sheet is on the opposite side from the pole. You can't tack with the pole up either way you do it, depending on the boat if you load the sheet over the pole you might be able to tack by dropping the pole down but it's questionable.

The only difference it really makes is that the pole doesn't naturally fall into a clear position when you take it down, takes an extra couple seconds to duck the sheet over the butt end of pole and re-run the topper (just unclip it and throw it on the top life line in a rush for a tack).

Or the preferred technique, call float drops when ever you can find an exscuse, makes it someone elses problem and you can clear the pole under nice relaxing conditions.

Rgds,

remmie

#198 AndyH

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 02:40 AM

how does everyone know if they are on the line in an ocean start where no transits can be taken?
ive always found this hard, especially when the skipper doesnt want to poke the nose out in the last minute so i can get a quick look. comments?
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#199 SEP

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:48 AM

I hate trying to toss the sheet over the t-lift to bring it back to the sail again so it is "clear", alot of work for very little gain. your butt needs to be on the rail. If your good and you've been on the crew for awhile, you are anticipating what the helm is going to be doing. the sheet UNDER the t-lift but over the pole at the butt end (dip pole) can be resolved very quickly if the pit,mast and f-deck are one. CVA - Communicate, Visualize, Anticipate.


This works very well on our boat, where the topping lift comes out of the mast at roughly the same height as the jib halyard. This means that you can drop the pole down to the deck and you're clear to tack immediately, as the topping lift will then be in line with the jib luff and can't foul the jib- the jib and jib sheets can swing clear across the pole, under/inside the t. lift. Our bowman can then clear the t. lift back to the mast later.

On boats where the t lift comes out of the mast more than a foot lower than the jib halyard, this may not work, but if not, give it a try...

#200 Bowgirl

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 12:07 PM

I hate trying to toss the sheet over the t-lift to bring it back to the sail again so it is "clear", alot of work for very little gain. your butt needs to be on the rail. If your good and you've been on the crew for awhile, you are anticipating what the helm is going to be doing. the sheet UNDER the t-lift but over the pole at the butt end (dip pole) can be resolved very quickly if the pit,mast and f-deck are one. CVA - Communicate, Visualize, Anticipate.


I just learned this last week. Very effective.

End-for-end pole and having the jib-sheets drop into the jaws is another thing. As I'm tripping the pole, the jibsheets just slide down and into the first gap they find. <_<

As I'm typing this, I'm thinking that if I were to twist the pole on the release and twist back for the snap back into the mast it might work to keep it clear (unavailable as a gap)? Does this work?
What do others do?




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