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#701 mustang__1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

I also don't know what all this bitching about it taking time to do the equiplites is either. If you're good enough it should take you as much or less time as it would to get a j lock open... and a decent second faster than what I would take to get a bowline that's small enough for use on a boat with in haulers.

The new T-Hook things on jibs are definitely better for W/L's but are positively murder for in-line changes or short sheeting offshore. They're also pretty heavy, bulky and expensive to incorporate.


they;re also not new. T-hooks have been around since at least the 2002 AC.

the equipelites suck when the velcro gets old, are expensive, and in general i just cant see an advantage to them over a splice-knot/rope-shackle etc. A J-lock or press-lock clips closed with a finger and can be locked with a finger. It takes little more than a second or two. The equipelites are harder to do one hand and are slower two handed than a jlock is one handed. they were neat when they first came out and they do have their applications, especially as a twinger/snatchblock, but ive come to really not like them for halyards or sheets.


as far as dealing with the jib, i either unclip the head and tack (less common) and slide them back and then forward, flick it around the front of the foreguy (only works for non overlappers) or take the forguy off the deck or pole, flick the jib through, and reconnect. this is how i did on a Farr30 and Corby33. For an overlapper i might consider sliding the jib back more often, keeping the jib halyard on the fraculater (what i did on a Tripp37 i sailed on for beercans a few summers ago). Either that or get rid of the pole before you put the jib up if you have the angle to do that.

#702 PDG

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Lots of ways to do this, though I think Loopy's is the most common. The thing is, if you never gybe, the boat will be clear to tack at the next rounding as soon as you lower the spin pole, as the lazy sheet was an top of the pole/bridle, which is the whole point to doing it that way. If that is important to you, then do as Loopy suggests so that whichever board you are on, the pole side jib sheet runs over the pole forward of the topper.

If that is not important to you, let the jib sheet fall to the deck at the first gybe and don't worry about it. When the pole comes down, you can briefly unhook it from the mast and set the jib sheet on top, disconnect the topper and hook it up to the butt end spin pole car (behind the jib sheet) and viola...clear to tack.

I'm not advocating either way, just pointing out that nobody in the back of the bus gives two shits how you do it, as long as the boat is clear to tack asap after the rounding. So work out a way that is fast enough to keep the ladies in the vegetable bin from hyperventilating and that also works well for you. Then do it that way every time.

And most importantly!!! ... put some bungee cord around the base of the mast so you have a keeper for the aforementioned cold ones. Priorities!

#703 Mr_BoTangles

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:54 PM





Don't know if this has been answered here already, so I'll ask anyways:



Yes this question has been asked and answered in this thread. My suggestion is: read the whole thing from the beginning. It's a fun read and educational as well.

In short though: When dousing shove/roll the jib forward into the pullpit as has been suggested.
When it's time to gybe: you pick up the lazy jib sheet (which is lying on deck to leeward)
Trip the sheet off the pole then trip the pole off the mast (this is for light/medium air. Heavy air is slightly different.
place the lazy jib sheet over the pole and attach pole to new working spinnaker sheet and help it forward toward the clue.
As the pole is coming across so you can attach it to the mast clear the jib sheet off and attach to the mast.
Yell "MADE" as loud as you can.
Repeat for any further gybes.

I'm sure I've forgotten something in here but that's why I said to read the thread. There are a couple of differing views on this and in my opinion none of them are wrong so read up, try them all and pick the one that works best for you and get good at it.


Have pit send up a cold-one.

Silver Bullet has the only sensible part here....
I kinda get what you're getting at for the gybe, but let's look after the good race sails by scrunching them into the pulpit & your owner probably wonders why the sails look so fcked by 3/4 of the way through the season... nice one dumbass......

Cute. So Smart ass give us a step by step then.


main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!

#704 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.

#705 Mr_BoTangles

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:51 AM



main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....

#706 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:24 PM




main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....


Oh you're clearly special

#707 Ballast Technician

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:16 PM





main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....


Oh you're clearly special


Don't bother with the cunt.

#708 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Its a racing boat. the sails get beat. One bad timing on a tack at the upper end of the range of the #1 will do more damage than 2 seasons of scrunching it forward.

S33 is an end for end pole (I've done pointy end on a pretty good S33 here in the PNW). Its pretty much a telephone pole rig so Fraculating doesn't help much.

But because its such a pointy bow- GET THE DAMN WEIGHT OFF THE FRONT.

IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.

Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.

Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.

Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...

Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole.
Reclip pole,
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".

Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.

If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.

Bob's your uncle.

#709 Left Hook

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:21 PM


Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Its a racing boat. the sails get beat. One bad timing on a tack at the upper end of the range of the #1 will do more damage than 2 seasons of scrunching it forward.

S33 is an end for end pole (I've done pointy end on a pretty good S33 here in the PNW). Its pretty much a telephone pole rig so Fraculating doesn't help much.

But because its such a pointy bow- GET THE DAMN WEIGHT OFF THE FRONT.

IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.

Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.

Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.

Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...

Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole.
Reclip pole,
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".

Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.

If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.

Bob's your uncle.



KRC, don't listen to him. That explanation is more than a little over-thought. Look me up the next time we're in the same place and I'll walk you through it.

#710 DogWillBark

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

From SW regarding asym winward douse in breeze:


"An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."

Anyone use this?

#711 Left Hook

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

From SW regarding asym winward douse in breeze:


"An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."

Anyone use this?


Have had good success with the process up past 25 knots. Still have to be judicious about getting it around the forestay but it's quicker and easier than lazy sheet or stretch and blow douses. Takes less effort and time to reset than a takedown line or footcord too.

#712 mustang__1

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...

#713 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:10 AM

i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?

#714 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:38 AM


i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.

#715 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:45 AM

Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...

#716 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Seriously, though...you should be having this conversation with the driver to work out how far above the leeward mark he should be aiming so that a clean weather douse happens. Something that should probably be worked out in practice.

#717 Grrl Runnin the Pointy End

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:52 AM

Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...


I'd pay to watch this. Seriously.

#718 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:59 AM



i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.


So where is the TRL at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?

#719 ropetrick

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:24 AM


Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...


I'd pay to watch this. Seriously.


I'll pay AND bring the beer!

#720 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:01 AM




i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.


So where is the TRL at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?


I generally tie the line off to the tack of the sail and feed it down the hatch that way when I'm hauling ass on it as we go for the douse it's feeding into the hatch for the sewer person and so that it's beneath the kite in the hole and easier to clean up.

If you're rigged for inside gybes then don't put it over the sheet with the tackline or else your first gybe will be messy. I generally rig it and toss it flaked down the hatch and forward so that it is totally away from the kite.

#721 RATM

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:32 PM


i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.

When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.

You could try a take down line from the midpoint of the foot or a belly button patch about 18 inches above the mid-point. Using this type of a takedown line has it's pros and cons. One big plus is that you're pulling the foot in first. Since you'll blow the sheet and the tackline at the same time, the kite will depower VERY quickly. The downside is that you now have this line attached to the kite that can get in the way or caught on something. You'll need some sort of pocket up by the tack to store it. As the kite is being pre-fed to the end of the sprit, you have to take it out and attach it to something. Large asym boats will lead the takedown line down to a fancy take system taht's driven off their grinding pedestal(s).

#722 mustang__1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

the takedown line is kind of a PITA as well since you have to put it back in the keepers along the foot. but, it is a more effective way to do things than the tack retrieval.

#723 gybe-ho!

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

On the Soto40 last year we ran a takedown line similar to the one described by RATM, but due to Class rules, the takedown line could not be powered by a device, so no fancy 1:2 system or wheel inside or add any extra equipment not already supplied or onboard. We simply had a drop line on each kite long enough to exit out of the sheet hole in the side of the cockpit. We always did left hand takedowns, so depending on which side of the gate we went at the bottom, it was either a leeward or weather drop. The drop line led from the port side of the kite, down the fore hatch, past the port side of the mast, through a turning block (Supplied Harken High Load Snatchie) and entered the cockpit as mentioned through the sheet hole.

As the drop was called the bowman hauled on the dropline, the kite trimmer once he'd blown the sheet, wailed on the drop line and in concert with the tackline and halyard going at the right time, the kite ended up almost fully in the boat, the pitman would jump down once most of the kite was aboard and do a quick pull on the remainder of the mess on deck from below and if needed run the tapes. The drop line could be disconnected for the second hoist as it was always a 4 leg ww/ race although if it didn't get disconnected, it was no hassle.

#724 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:42 PM

Seriously, though...you should be having this conversation with the driver to work out how far above the leeward mark he should be aiming so that a clean weather douse happens. Something that should probably be worked out in practice.


We've been talking it through all-season. Performance is greatly improved in the short time we've had the boat. But, the TRL questions resurfaced after a douse on a hot angle last weekend. ( BTW, the driver/owner is a bowman...and a damn good one.)



i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


ideas?


My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.

When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.


We've been blowing the tack with the pole out while hauling around the clew to de-power. Anyone "burping" the halyard as the clew is being hauled around rather than flicking the tack?

#725 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

Need to be careful with burping the halyard so that part of the foot doesn't go into the water. Blowing the sheet & tack and hauling in on a TRL keeps the kite up in the air while you get the foot in hand before blowing the halyard.

#726 JL92S

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

tie off the lazy sheet on the winch blow the tackline and man up, thats my 25+kts reaching windward drop

#727 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:48 PM

Glad the reaching douse is not "The Usual"! Unfortunately, "Aw-shit!" happens some times, whattayagonnado? What about leeward strip? Aside from the fact that the gear would have to be re-run and the kite packed, keeping you off the rail long enough for the vegetable bin types to start hyperventilating, that is.

+1 on not burping the halyard. Everything goes pear shaped when the foot goes in the drink. The sail does need to unload before you can do much with it, though. I'm in the blow the tack line and haul like hell on the lazy sheet camp. Get some help and make 'em buy you beers.

#728 RATM

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

tie off the lazy sheet on the winch blow the tackline and man up, thats my 25+kts reaching windward drop


Yea and your J/92 is how much bigger than a Soto 40 or a Farr 36?

#729 W00D1E

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

I do bow on a J 120, All douses are done with a TRL, and we are allways rigged for inside gybes. Depending on the breeze either 1 or 2 people on the TRL, and somebody in the sewer (we call squirrel). If the TRL is long enough pass it down below to the sewer. TRL is led over the top of lazy spin sheet during the douse.

1. Skipper calls douse
2. Blow the working spin sheet
3. Blow the tack line. Tack goes down the hatch first, and haul the entire foot around the head stay (windward douse).
4. Bow calls for halyard, and chute comes down on deck

During a leeward douse, it helps to have 2 guys on the TRL so that the forward most person can let go of TRL, and help the tack up under the jib foot, and over the life lines if the jib is sheeted to tight. Also the pit guy must realize not to smoke the halyard, or your shrimping. Pit guy needs to give the bow as much halyard as they can handle without letting the chute get in the water to much.

When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.

Just my $.02

#730 DogWillBark

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.

Just my $.02


too long to have the squirrel below dealing with a mess. can't afford the weight and by the time it's sorted, we're probably back to the winward mark.

#731 Damp Freddie

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:19 PM

Bullafontaine: since u are a bone fide anarchist now, then learn to fuck authority - respect it, but fuck it.
Understand the race and the next move and anticipate yours. Achieve eye contact at these moments with the mormon sister f*%ker on the helm . This is all the communication you need.
Get yourself set up early for gybes and tidy up after.

Learn some useful handsignals for hoists, douses and of course starts. Shut, invent some of your own.

The bow is a hallowed place I once graced in OD fleets. Enjoy and keep out of management consultancy at the blunt end. I should have stayed on bow!

#732 haligonian winterr

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:07 AM

I've read this whole thing, and something I haven't seen yet it what people use for hand signals?

I use (generally) thumbs-up for good-to-go/okay/understood/clear/ready and fist straight up for stop turning, pointing either way for bow up/down.

Love to hear other methods, someone's definitely got a better system out there.

HW

Bullafontaine: since u are a bone fide anarchist now, then learn to fuck authority - respect it, but fuck it.
Understand the race and the next move and anticipate yours. Achieve eye contact at these moments with the mormon sister f*%ker on the helm . This is all the communication you need.
Get yourself set up early for gybes and tidy up after.

Learn some useful handsignals for hoists, douses and of course starts. Shut, invent some of your own.

The bow is a hallowed place I once graced in OD fleets. Enjoy and keep out of management consultancy at the blunt end. I should have stayed on bow!



#733 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:29 AM

1-4 on the windward hand = boatlengths. When we're inside one bl I twitch the index finger up & down as if I'm waving with it to signal that it's less than 1. If it's light/quiet enough and we're within 1 then I'll talk to the afterguard about distance in terms of 1/4 BL's. Swinging an open palm through 90 degrees like you're chopping the air signals that there is no overlap with a nearby boat. Holding up a closed fist is "hold" to not change heading either because you're overlapped with someone or there's a starboard tack boat on a converging course. Thumbs down is "over early". Holding a palm opened downward and patting down as if you're patting a dog is "slow down, you're early" and a "come on" motion means 'send it' towards the line.

On boats with non overlapping headsails, as long as the tactician has a competent head on his shoulders, you shouldn't have to be too aggressive with pointing out boats on a converging course or who have rights. On a boat with overlapping headsails or one without a tactician you should play it by ear and be looking around more to see what's coming at you that they may not see...

#734 Tunnel Rat

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:31 AM

I've read this whole thing, and something I haven't seen yet it what people use for hand signals?

I use (generally) thumbs-up for good-to-go/okay/understood/clear/ready and fist straight up for stop turning, pointing either way for bow up/down.

Love to hear other methods, someone's definitely got a better system out there.

HW


The general system that I have used on several boats is hold up the number of fingers that equals the number of boatlengths to the line. A closed fist means you are on the line, a thumbs down means we are over the line.

A long glare at the helmsman accompanied by a vigourous pointing up towards the line means we are going to be late, walking back from the bow to the rail with 30 secs to go means that we have been shafted and are off the back row.

Another system of hand signals applies when dealing with "encouragement" from the back of the bus when changing to a gybe set when 20 secs from the top mark.

#735 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:29 PM

coulda sworn there was a signal discussion a while back - must have been a different thread? in any case heres what id add to the above:

bent pointer finger = 1/2 length
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though).

i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.

everything else has been said.

always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

#736 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

coulda sworn there was a signal discussion a while back - must have been a different thread? in any case heres what id add to the above:

bent pointer finger = 1/2 length
thumb up/down fist = bow up/downFist can be confused with holdt.
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though)That's why I like to flick a finger to represent half boatlengths. Say we're at 1.5; my index finger will be extended while i'm flicking my middle finger to signify we're in between the two.

i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.

everything else has been said.

always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start... Yes


Also, I just remembered that I like to flash back a pinching motion to the helmsman, with eye contact if possible, to show we're only feet off.

#737 SailRacer

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:45 PM

All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...

#738 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

a fist with a thumb or down will not be confused with a fist if you make sure your thumb is in a position the back can actually see. on the same string, make sure you dont hold your fingers in a way that they cant see how many you are holding up... seen it too many damn times. might as well throw 160lbs of lead in the bow and call it even.

#739 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

I should have stayed on bow!


Never get off the bow.

#740 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

unless you're going all the way.

#741 KRC

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.

#742 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:23 PM


...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.

#743 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:27 PM

All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...


Just have better balance...and if you don't then don't do the bow.

#744 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:39 PM



...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.


I disagree. Sailing deep briefly is, in my opinion, the correct way to unload an assm for dousing (using the lazy sheet to retrieve). Any other method is a way of compensating for the fact that, for some reason, it can not be done correctly. My 2c.

#745 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:40 PM


All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...


Just have better balance...and if you don't then don't do the bow.


Who died and made you Elvis?

#746 KRC

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:39 PM



...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.

I think we're talking about different maneuvers here. For a windward assym douse with a tack retrieval line, if you try to do this sailing upwind or on a reach, you must pull the entire sail forward (against the wind) around the headstay. In typical, light-air, Long-Island-Sound wind less than 8-10 kts, you can do it, but it is still harder to do than if you're sailing deep (i.e., less apparent wind). In 10-12+ kts of wind, forget it. Been there, done that (at night, closer to a lee shore than I ever want to be again, and in a building breeze). It's not efficient, and the sail is hardly under control.

If you still disagree, I volunteer to be the driver in the scenario PDG suggested in post 715 above. I'll even bring beer :D

#747 Damp Freddie

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:47 PM


I should have stayed on bow!


Never get off the bow.


Hallelujah.

I should be born again. I sail on a schMelges and stay off the bow at all costs.

I hope berry hallifonte enjoys it more than the pit and cleaning the heads.




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