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#701 mustang__1

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:47 PM

I also don't know what all this bitching about it taking time to do the equiplites is either. If you're good enough it should take you as much or less time as it would to get a j lock open... and a decent second faster than what I would take to get a bowline that's small enough for use on a boat with in haulers.

The new T-Hook things on jibs are definitely better for W/L's but are positively murder for in-line changes or short sheeting offshore. They're also pretty heavy, bulky and expensive to incorporate.


they;re also not new. T-hooks have been around since at least the 2002 AC.

the equipelites suck when the velcro gets old, are expensive, and in general i just cant see an advantage to them over a splice-knot/rope-shackle etc. A J-lock or press-lock clips closed with a finger and can be locked with a finger. It takes little more than a second or two. The equipelites are harder to do one hand and are slower two handed than a jlock is one handed. they were neat when they first came out and they do have their applications, especially as a twinger/snatchblock, but ive come to really not like them for halyards or sheets.


as far as dealing with the jib, i either unclip the head and tack (less common) and slide them back and then forward, flick it around the front of the foreguy (only works for non overlappers) or take the forguy off the deck or pole, flick the jib through, and reconnect. this is how i did on a Farr30 and Corby33. For an overlapper i might consider sliding the jib back more often, keeping the jib halyard on the fraculater (what i did on a Tripp37 i sailed on for beercans a few summers ago). Either that or get rid of the pole before you put the jib up if you have the angle to do that.

#702 PDG

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:09 PM

Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Lots of ways to do this, though I think Loopy's is the most common. The thing is, if you never gybe, the boat will be clear to tack at the next rounding as soon as you lower the spin pole, as the lazy sheet was an top of the pole/bridle, which is the whole point to doing it that way. If that is important to you, then do as Loopy suggests so that whichever board you are on, the pole side jib sheet runs over the pole forward of the topper.

If that is not important to you, let the jib sheet fall to the deck at the first gybe and don't worry about it. When the pole comes down, you can briefly unhook it from the mast and set the jib sheet on top, disconnect the topper and hook it up to the butt end spin pole car (behind the jib sheet) and viola...clear to tack.

I'm not advocating either way, just pointing out that nobody in the back of the bus gives two shits how you do it, as long as the boat is clear to tack asap after the rounding. So work out a way that is fast enough to keep the ladies in the vegetable bin from hyperventilating and that also works well for you. Then do it that way every time.

And most importantly!!! ... put some bungee cord around the base of the mast so you have a keeper for the aforementioned cold ones. Priorities!

#703 Mr_BoTangles

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:54 PM





Don't know if this has been answered here already, so I'll ask anyways:



Yes this question has been asked and answered in this thread. My suggestion is: read the whole thing from the beginning. It's a fun read and educational as well.

In short though: When dousing shove/roll the jib forward into the pullpit as has been suggested.
When it's time to gybe: you pick up the lazy jib sheet (which is lying on deck to leeward)
Trip the sheet off the pole then trip the pole off the mast (this is for light/medium air. Heavy air is slightly different.
place the lazy jib sheet over the pole and attach pole to new working spinnaker sheet and help it forward toward the clue.
As the pole is coming across so you can attach it to the mast clear the jib sheet off and attach to the mast.
Yell "MADE" as loud as you can.
Repeat for any further gybes.

I'm sure I've forgotten something in here but that's why I said to read the thread. There are a couple of differing views on this and in my opinion none of them are wrong so read up, try them all and pick the one that works best for you and get good at it.


Have pit send up a cold-one.

Silver Bullet has the only sensible part here....
I kinda get what you're getting at for the gybe, but let's look after the good race sails by scrunching them into the pulpit & your owner probably wonders why the sails look so fcked by 3/4 of the way through the season... nice one dumbass......

Cute. So Smart ass give us a step by step then.


main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!

#704 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.

#705 Mr_BoTangles

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 02:51 AM



main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....

#706 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:24 PM




main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....


Oh you're clearly special

#707 Ballast Technician

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:16 PM





main comment was about sail care, not having a go at the rest.100 ways to skin a cat blah blah....
But having coldies sent forward is oft of vital importance.

I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days!


I know what the main comment was. That's why I said for you to tell us what you do.

There are quite a few ways to deal with the bow on an end for ender. I don't actually do it the way I described above. I was just answering the question asked. Two of the three programs I've been involved with this year are all A sails. and the other is a J24 which gets new sails every other year so long term sail care is irrelevant.


Well whoopdedoo for being on three "programs". I guess we can't all be a special as you...
A-sail bows are complete no-brainers and not everyone has the luxury of getting fresh sails every season...
*EDIT*... I made the answer BOLD so your peanut-sized a-sailing brain has half a chance to register, if you are capable of reading
it through properly....


Oh you're clearly special


Don't bother with the cunt.

#708 BalticBandit

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Its a racing boat. the sails get beat. One bad timing on a tack at the upper end of the range of the #1 will do more damage than 2 seasons of scrunching it forward.

S33 is an end for end pole (I've done pointy end on a pretty good S33 here in the PNW). Its pretty much a telephone pole rig so Fraculating doesn't help much.

But because its such a pointy bow- GET THE DAMN WEIGHT OFF THE FRONT.

IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.

Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.

Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.

Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...

Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole.
Reclip pole,
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".

Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.

If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.

Bob's your uncle.

#709 Left Hook

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:21 PM


Soverel 33 downfucker turning blocks are not all that far forward, so you shouldn't have to mash the genoa up too much to get it far enough forward to be clear. Deck flake it as best you can as it comes down, z-fold it in thirds, and throw a sail tie around it so it doesn't go swimming.

Its a racing boat. the sails get beat. One bad timing on a tack at the upper end of the range of the #1 will do more damage than 2 seasons of scrunching it forward.

S33 is an end for end pole (I've done pointy end on a pretty good S33 here in the PNW). Its pretty much a telephone pole rig so Fraculating doesn't help much.

But because its such a pointy bow- GET THE DAMN WEIGHT OFF THE FRONT.

IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.

Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.

Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.

Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...

Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole.
Reclip pole,
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".

Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.

If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.

Bob's your uncle.



KRC, don't listen to him. That explanation is more than a little over-thought. Look me up the next time we're in the same place and I'll walk you through it.

#710 DogWillBark

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

From SW regarding asym winward douse in breeze:


"An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."

Anyone use this?

#711 Left Hook

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

From SW regarding asym winward douse in breeze:


"An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."

Anyone use this?


Have had good success with the process up past 25 knots. Still have to be judicious about getting it around the forestay but it's quicker and easier than lazy sheet or stretch and blow douses. Takes less effort and time to reset than a takedown line or footcord too.

#712 mustang__1

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...

#713 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:10 AM

i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?

#714 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:38 AM


i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.

#715 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:45 AM

Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...

#716 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Seriously, though...you should be having this conversation with the driver to work out how far above the leeward mark he should be aiming so that a clean weather douse happens. Something that should probably be worked out in practice.

#717 Grrl Runnin the Pointy End

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:52 AM

Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...


I'd pay to watch this. Seriously.

#718 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:59 AM



i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.


So where is the TRL at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?

#719 ropetrick

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:24 AM


Trade jobs with the driver and ask him to demonstrate how to douse an assym whilst reaching.

Bring a go pro camera and popcorn...


I'd pay to watch this. Seriously.


I'll pay AND bring the beer!

#720 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:01 AM




i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean.

Note: This is assuming inside gybes.


So where is the TRL at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?


I generally tie the line off to the tack of the sail and feed it down the hatch that way when I'm hauling ass on it as we go for the douse it's feeding into the hatch for the sewer person and so that it's beneath the kite in the hole and easier to clean up.

If you're rigged for inside gybes then don't put it over the sheet with the tackline or else your first gybe will be messy. I generally rig it and toss it flaked down the hatch and forward so that it is totally away from the kite.

#721 RATM

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:32 PM


i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.

Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.

Ideas?


My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.

When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.

You could try a take down line from the midpoint of the foot or a belly button patch about 18 inches above the mid-point. Using this type of a takedown line has it's pros and cons. One big plus is that you're pulling the foot in first. Since you'll blow the sheet and the tackline at the same time, the kite will depower VERY quickly. The downside is that you now have this line attached to the kite that can get in the way or caught on something. You'll need some sort of pocket up by the tack to store it. As the kite is being pre-fed to the end of the sprit, you have to take it out and attach it to something. Large asym boats will lead the takedown line down to a fancy take system taht's driven off their grinding pedestal(s).

#722 mustang__1

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:05 PM

the takedown line is kind of a PITA as well since you have to put it back in the keepers along the foot. but, it is a more effective way to do things than the tack retrieval.

#723 gybe-ho!

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:04 PM

On the Soto40 last year we ran a takedown line similar to the one described by RATM, but due to Class rules, the takedown line could not be powered by a device, so no fancy 1:2 system or wheel inside or add any extra equipment not already supplied or onboard. We simply had a drop line on each kite long enough to exit out of the sheet hole in the side of the cockpit. We always did left hand takedowns, so depending on which side of the gate we went at the bottom, it was either a leeward or weather drop. The drop line led from the port side of the kite, down the fore hatch, past the port side of the mast, through a turning block (Supplied Harken High Load Snatchie) and entered the cockpit as mentioned through the sheet hole.

As the drop was called the bowman hauled on the dropline, the kite trimmer once he'd blown the sheet, wailed on the drop line and in concert with the tackline and halyard going at the right time, the kite ended up almost fully in the boat, the pitman would jump down once most of the kite was aboard and do a quick pull on the remainder of the mess on deck from below and if needed run the tapes. The drop line could be disconnected for the second hoist as it was always a 4 leg ww/ race although if it didn't get disconnected, it was no hassle.

#724 DogWillBark

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:42 PM

Seriously, though...you should be having this conversation with the driver to work out how far above the leeward mark he should be aiming so that a clean weather douse happens. Something that should probably be worked out in practice.


We've been talking it through all-season. Performance is greatly improved in the short time we've had the boat. But, the TRL questions resurfaced after a douse on a hot angle last weekend. ( BTW, the driver/owner is a bowman...and a damn good one.)



i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it...


ideas?


My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.

When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.


We've been blowing the tack with the pole out while hauling around the clew to de-power. Anyone "burping" the halyard as the clew is being hauled around rather than flicking the tack?

#725 Left Hook

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

Need to be careful with burping the halyard so that part of the foot doesn't go into the water. Blowing the sheet & tack and hauling in on a TRL keeps the kite up in the air while you get the foot in hand before blowing the halyard.

#726 JL92S

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

tie off the lazy sheet on the winch blow the tackline and man up, thats my 25+kts reaching windward drop

#727 PDG

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:48 PM

Glad the reaching douse is not "The Usual"! Unfortunately, "Aw-shit!" happens some times, whattayagonnado? What about leeward strip? Aside from the fact that the gear would have to be re-run and the kite packed, keeping you off the rail long enough for the vegetable bin types to start hyperventilating, that is.

+1 on not burping the halyard. Everything goes pear shaped when the foot goes in the drink. The sail does need to unload before you can do much with it, though. I'm in the blow the tack line and haul like hell on the lazy sheet camp. Get some help and make 'em buy you beers.

#728 RATM

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

tie off the lazy sheet on the winch blow the tackline and man up, thats my 25+kts reaching windward drop


Yea and your J/92 is how much bigger than a Soto 40 or a Farr 36?

#729 W00D1E

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

I do bow on a J 120, All douses are done with a TRL, and we are allways rigged for inside gybes. Depending on the breeze either 1 or 2 people on the TRL, and somebody in the sewer (we call squirrel). If the TRL is long enough pass it down below to the sewer. TRL is led over the top of lazy spin sheet during the douse.

1. Skipper calls douse
2. Blow the working spin sheet
3. Blow the tack line. Tack goes down the hatch first, and haul the entire foot around the head stay (windward douse).
4. Bow calls for halyard, and chute comes down on deck

During a leeward douse, it helps to have 2 guys on the TRL so that the forward most person can let go of TRL, and help the tack up under the jib foot, and over the life lines if the jib is sheeted to tight. Also the pit guy must realize not to smoke the halyard, or your shrimping. Pit guy needs to give the bow as much halyard as they can handle without letting the chute get in the water to much.

When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.

Just my $.02

#730 DogWillBark

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.

Just my $.02


too long to have the squirrel below dealing with a mess. can't afford the weight and by the time it's sorted, we're probably back to the winward mark.

#731 Damp Freddie

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:19 PM

Bullafontaine: since u are a bone fide anarchist now, then learn to fuck authority - respect it, but fuck it.
Understand the race and the next move and anticipate yours. Achieve eye contact at these moments with the mormon sister f*%ker on the helm . This is all the communication you need.
Get yourself set up early for gybes and tidy up after.

Learn some useful handsignals for hoists, douses and of course starts. Shut, invent some of your own.

The bow is a hallowed place I once graced in OD fleets. Enjoy and keep out of management consultancy at the blunt end. I should have stayed on bow!

#732 haligonian winterr

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:07 AM

I've read this whole thing, and something I haven't seen yet it what people use for hand signals?

I use (generally) thumbs-up for good-to-go/okay/understood/clear/ready and fist straight up for stop turning, pointing either way for bow up/down.

Love to hear other methods, someone's definitely got a better system out there.

HW

Bullafontaine: since u are a bone fide anarchist now, then learn to fuck authority - respect it, but fuck it.
Understand the race and the next move and anticipate yours. Achieve eye contact at these moments with the mormon sister f*%ker on the helm . This is all the communication you need.
Get yourself set up early for gybes and tidy up after.

Learn some useful handsignals for hoists, douses and of course starts. Shut, invent some of your own.

The bow is a hallowed place I once graced in OD fleets. Enjoy and keep out of management consultancy at the blunt end. I should have stayed on bow!



#733 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:29 AM

1-4 on the windward hand = boatlengths. When we're inside one bl I twitch the index finger up & down as if I'm waving with it to signal that it's less than 1. If it's light/quiet enough and we're within 1 then I'll talk to the afterguard about distance in terms of 1/4 BL's. Swinging an open palm through 90 degrees like you're chopping the air signals that there is no overlap with a nearby boat. Holding up a closed fist is "hold" to not change heading either because you're overlapped with someone or there's a starboard tack boat on a converging course. Thumbs down is "over early". Holding a palm opened downward and patting down as if you're patting a dog is "slow down, you're early" and a "come on" motion means 'send it' towards the line.

On boats with non overlapping headsails, as long as the tactician has a competent head on his shoulders, you shouldn't have to be too aggressive with pointing out boats on a converging course or who have rights. On a boat with overlapping headsails or one without a tactician you should play it by ear and be looking around more to see what's coming at you that they may not see...

#734 Tunnel Rat

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:31 AM

I've read this whole thing, and something I haven't seen yet it what people use for hand signals?

I use (generally) thumbs-up for good-to-go/okay/understood/clear/ready and fist straight up for stop turning, pointing either way for bow up/down.

Love to hear other methods, someone's definitely got a better system out there.

HW


The general system that I have used on several boats is hold up the number of fingers that equals the number of boatlengths to the line. A closed fist means you are on the line, a thumbs down means we are over the line.

A long glare at the helmsman accompanied by a vigourous pointing up towards the line means we are going to be late, walking back from the bow to the rail with 30 secs to go means that we have been shafted and are off the back row.

Another system of hand signals applies when dealing with "encouragement" from the back of the bus when changing to a gybe set when 20 secs from the top mark.

#735 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:29 PM

coulda sworn there was a signal discussion a while back - must have been a different thread? in any case heres what id add to the above:

bent pointer finger = 1/2 length
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though).

i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.

everything else has been said.

always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

#736 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

coulda sworn there was a signal discussion a while back - must have been a different thread? in any case heres what id add to the above:

bent pointer finger = 1/2 length
thumb up/down fist = bow up/downFist can be confused with holdt.
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though)That's why I like to flick a finger to represent half boatlengths. Say we're at 1.5; my index finger will be extended while i'm flicking my middle finger to signify we're in between the two.

i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.

everything else has been said.

always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start... Yes


Also, I just remembered that I like to flash back a pinching motion to the helmsman, with eye contact if possible, to show we're only feet off.

#737 SailRacer

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:45 PM

All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...

#738 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

a fist with a thumb or down will not be confused with a fist if you make sure your thumb is in a position the back can actually see. on the same string, make sure you dont hold your fingers in a way that they cant see how many you are holding up... seen it too many damn times. might as well throw 160lbs of lead in the bow and call it even.

#739 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

I should have stayed on bow!


Never get off the bow.

#740 mustang__1

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:27 PM

unless you're going all the way.

#741 KRC

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.

#742 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:23 PM


...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.

#743 Left Hook

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:27 PM

All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...


Just have better balance...and if you don't then don't do the bow.

#744 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:39 PM



...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.


I disagree. Sailing deep briefly is, in my opinion, the correct way to unload an assm for dousing (using the lazy sheet to retrieve). Any other method is a way of compensating for the fact that, for some reason, it can not be done correctly. My 2c.

#745 PDG

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:40 PM


All the time doing above while not standing up + holding on to the forestay swinging wildly like riding a bucking bronco. - person on the helm usually discourages that.

A good bow is also seen and not heard (unless he is saying "made") .

just a thought...


Just have better balance...and if you don't then don't do the bow.


Who died and made you Elvis?

#746 KRC

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:39 PM



...
always remember to talk over hand signals with braintrust before pre-start...

This.
I do foredeck on several boats and each skipper/tactician has their own preference. One skipper prefers verbal communication over hand signals. Another skipper is indifferent as to whether I'm on the bow, up the mast, or taking a piss off the stern during the start, so hand signals are a moot point. Still others prefer hand signals, some the same, some different from each other.

The bottom line is, ask the brain trust what signals they want you to use. This way, you avoid confusion.

My thoughts on a TRL:
We used this method on the J/120 I crewed on for 4 years (before the boat was sold). There was a shackle on the tack end, which clipped onto the bail of the tackline shackle. The other end was tied loosely around the shrouds. We were usually short handed, so we didn't have a sewer. Once it became clear which tack we were going to be on when we doused, we untied the TRL and, if necessary, brought it around the forestay to the windward side. Bowman stood by the forestay, mid-bow by the hatch. DUMP the sheet, EASE the tack. Confusing DUMP and EASE often resulted in a bowman (me) nearly getting slung off the boat like a pebble from a sling. Bowman pulls in TRL as tack is being eased, gathers in the foot, and passes this off to mid-bow, who helps drag it all back to the hatch. Once the foot's under control, pit can release halyard.

This method works fine in light or heavy air, and is pretty shrimp-proof because the clew is (should be) loose. The caveat, as mentioned before, is that the driver MUST drive the boat deep until the foot is under control. The heavier the wind, the deeper the driver must sail. In 20+, you need to be going just about DDW, or else have a bow team comprised of 6 mountain gorillas. If you can't sail deep, then trim the jib to blanket the kite and help collapse it.


Not really. As long as you've blown the sheet and tackline entirely the kite should be under control no matter what point of sail you're on. That's the beauty of the technique: It works on almost all points of sail.

I think we're talking about different maneuvers here. For a windward assym douse with a tack retrieval line, if you try to do this sailing upwind or on a reach, you must pull the entire sail forward (against the wind) around the headstay. In typical, light-air, Long-Island-Sound wind less than 8-10 kts, you can do it, but it is still harder to do than if you're sailing deep (i.e., less apparent wind). In 10-12+ kts of wind, forget it. Been there, done that (at night, closer to a lee shore than I ever want to be again, and in a building breeze). It's not efficient, and the sail is hardly under control.

If you still disagree, I volunteer to be the driver in the scenario PDG suggested in post 715 above. I'll even bring beer :D

#747 Damp Freddie

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:47 PM


I should have stayed on bow!


Never get off the bow.


Hallelujah.

I should be born again. I sail on a schMelges and stay off the bow at all costs.

I hope berry hallifonte enjoys it more than the pit and cleaning the heads.

#748 schessor

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Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:28 PM

Handsignals from Yachting World  http://www.yachtingw...VhMVjStVSchY.01



#749 Suijin

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 12:29 AM

I haven't seen anyone specifically stress good communication with your pit person. A bad pitman, or bad communication with the pitman can lead to the biggest FUBARs as well as situations that lead to bad things like loss of digits, etc.

 

Make sure you're both onboard the same nomenclature if your pitman is on lots of strings. 



#750 bowgal98

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 01:13 AM

I haven't seen anyone specifically stress good communication with your pit person. A bad pitman, or bad communication with the pitman can lead to the biggest FUBARs as well as situations that lead to bad things like loss of digits, etc.

 

Make sure you're both onboard the same nomenclature if your pitman is on lots of strings. 

+1 - had this problem when I moved to the States from Aus. People looked at me strangely when I said "kicker" and "brace". Better known over here as downhaul and guy.  Took me ages to stop saying it the Aussie way. 



#751 blubberboy

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 03:38 PM

Defile the boat owner's daughter(s).
Start fights at the YC bar, and make sure you have your mid-bowman there for the old, 'hold me back!'
Tee'm up, douse'm, and flake'm, but don't pack shit.
Hand halyards to crew members on the rail and say,' hold this, don't let it go...'
Macramé on your own time.
Complain to everyone that you're the last person to have a beer in their hand at the end of the day's races.
Have your alternate spot mapped out furthest aft for pre, mid, and post race.

#752 haligonian winterr

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 06:24 PM

I did Pit before I learned Bow, and I was always told that the foredeck (any part of it) should NEVER have to ask for anything. I should be four steps ahead in the game, and seconds ahead on the lines. Unfortunately, I still expect the same from my Pit people, which can be frustrating.

 

Communication is important (not as important as Blubber's comments) and often the first thing to break down when things go sideways.

 

HW

 

I haven't seen anyone specifically stress good communication with your pit person. A bad pitman, or bad communication with the pitman can lead to the biggest FUBARs as well as situations that lead to bad things like loss of digits, etc.

 

Make sure you're both onboard the same nomenclature if your pitman is on lots of strings. 



#753 Steam Flyer

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 06:27 PM

Defile the boat owner's daughter(s).
Start fights at the YC bar, and make sure you have your mid-bowman there for the old, 'hold me back!'
Tee'm up, douse'm, and flake'm, but don't pack shit.
Hand halyards to crew members on the rail and say,' hold this, don't let it go...'
Macramé on your own time.
Complain to everyone that you're the last person to have a beer in their hand at the end of the day's races.
Have your alternate spot mapped out furthest aft for pre, mid, and post race.

 

Rehearse your loudest yell- "WAKE THE FUCK UP BACK THERE !!"

 

FB- Doug



#754 axolotl

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:16 PM

I don't usually attach the handcuffs to the guy. I go for attaching to either a ring on the pole (old IOR boats usually had these) or around the end of the foreguy, where it can't ride up. Each boat is often different, most have handcuffs that are a few inches long, some are shorter, some longer. Good luck.

ok, so this means that there are more handcuffs out there than the ones with their bails forged together. something like a webbing or spectra loop between the shackles like a quickdraw in the climbing world? that makes much more sense.

it seems that the idea is to find something that is sturdy enough to hold the guy load and make a strop that fits that distance without too much slack.

Why two shackles on handcuffs?  Sew a short spectra webbing loop through the bail of a single (preferably Tylaska) shackle.  Cow Hitch (luggage tag hitch) the loop to the pole ring or guy bail, your decision which.  Proceed as usual.  When done remove from pole ring or guy bail.  Half the cost of two shackle handcuffs.



#755 Rushman

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:58 PM

I haven't seen anyone specifically stress good communication with your pit person. A bad pitman, or bad communication with the pitman can lead to the biggest FUBARs as well as situations that lead to bad things like loss of digits, etc.
 
Make sure you're both onboard the same nomenclature if your pitman is on lots of strings. 

+1 - had this problem when I moved to the States from Aus. People looked at me strangely when I said "kicker" and "brace". Better known over here as downhaul and guy.  Took me ages to stop saying it the Aussie way. 

I had the same issues in New Zealand.

#756 DryArmour

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 09:05 PM

First...you must be a member of the Foredeck Union. Second, you must own at least on of these:

 

SAFU%20FINAL%20copy.jpg



#757 haligonian winterr

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 11:54 PM

I use a Tylaska, and a big (3/8) Vectran soft shackle taped to the bail. Hasn't failed me yet.

 

HW

 

 

I don't usually attach the handcuffs to the guy. I go for attaching to either a ring on the pole (old IOR boats usually had these) or around the end of the foreguy, where it can't ride up. Each boat is often different, most have handcuffs that are a few inches long, some are shorter, some longer. Good luck.

ok, so this means that there are more handcuffs out there than the ones with their bails forged together. something like a webbing or spectra loop between the shackles like a quickdraw in the climbing world? that makes much more sense.

it seems that the idea is to find something that is sturdy enough to hold the guy load and make a strop that fits that distance without too much slack.

Why two shackles on handcuffs?  Sew a short spectra webbing loop through the bail of a single (preferably Tylaska) shackle.  Cow Hitch (luggage tag hitch) the loop to the pole ring or guy bail, your decision which.  Proceed as usual.  When done remove from pole ring or guy bail.  Half the cost of two shackle handcuffs.



#758 wingssail

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:12 PM

Communication: Agree on terms and commands.

Slack or Ease, and  Tension, for example. Never say, "take up the slack"

Find out what names will you use for the halyards, spin gear, guy or brace, etc. The boat will have it's standards, make sure everyone knows what you want. No sense calling for "tension on the port wing", if the call it the red halyard.

"Ease the starboard Spin Gear!", that's clear.

Make sure you know if the set will be bear away or jibe set. If they change their minds too many times on one approach to the mark, just settle it, "The bow is doing a jibe set"

Make sure you know who is hailing nearby boats on the starting line, you or someone in the afterguard.

 

Set up:

On Symm kites you can keep the jib sheets over the pole and next to the mast, not ahead of the pole lift which uses lots more sheet that can get tangled up and puts them right in your way when you are jibing. Then simply unclip the pole lift fast after the takedown and you are "ready to tack"

 

Cleat the butt end of the pole well, otherwise it will fall, but only if you are standing under it.

 

On a jibe set or a late tack to the weather mark, you can hook up the halyard and pole lift ahead of time, just stand there and keep it out of the way until the jib is past then jump it fast, You will be ready before the back of the boat is.

 

If you wind up jumping a halyard during any hoist, make sure that the pit is keeping up with you. If you look down at your feet and see 20 feet of halyard piled there and about that time the kite fills, ouch!

 

Don't waste time trying to jump the last couple of feet, if you can't move it, just get down onto the winch handle and crank it up.

 

Always unclip the straps on the spin turtle, and always clip the turtle to the boat.

 

Check every thing, often, you should be looking up so much your neck aches.



#759 Suijin

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:55 PM

 

I haven't seen anyone specifically stress good communication with your pit person. A bad pitman, or bad communication with the pitman can lead to the biggest FUBARs as well as situations that lead to bad things like loss of digits, etc.

 

Make sure you're both onboard the same nomenclature if your pitman is on lots of strings. 

+1 - had this problem when I moved to the States from Aus. People looked at me strangely when I said "kicker" and "brace". Better known over here as downhaul and guy.  Took me ages to stop saying it the Aussie way. 

 

 

 

Upfucker and downfucker are other US alternative terms, at least for the pole controls.



#760 Peragrin

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 11:21 PM

First...you must be a member of the Foredeck Union. Second, you must own at least on of these:
 
SAFU%20FINAL%20copy.jpg

wow that is an excellent ad. Bowpeople always need one of those shirts.

#761 mustang__1

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 01:50 AM

Communication: Agree on terms and commands.
Slack or Ease, and  Tension, for example. Never say, "take up the slack"

i agree 100% with everything you said except this. I like to say "Take" and "Give". Simple one word commands that can become simplified down to grunts once the pit guy figures it out.

 

Cleat the butt end of the pole well, otherwise it will fall, but only if you are standing under it.



Aint that the fucking truth.

#762 axolotl

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:24 AM

Don't waste time trying to jump the last couple of feet, if you can't move it, just get down onto the winch handle and crank it up.

 

Always unclip the straps on the spin turtle, and always clip the turtle to the boat.

Minor disagreements here.  

 

If the mastman-pit don't ring the bell, grinding will take a while and other boats will gain.  Loser.  Somebody has fucked up. Usually caused by an overzealous sheet trimmer inflating the kite when it's only halfway up.

 

Don't always unclip the tack and clew turtle straps; in big air the kite can come out prematurely, go under the boat and waste thousands of dollars of the skipper's kitty.  

 

Halyard because it's reversed Velcro has to be unVelcroed seconds prior to hoist, and prefeed the guy can be done by a trimmer with some grunt blowing the suitcase Velcro open at the last second.

 

I'm dismayed by newbie bowmen who'd done 30 light air hoists and think it's always a hook the suitcase to the lifelines, open up the suitcase Velcro completely and round with a beautiful fast hoist.  Different conditions require different procedures, seen too many kites plop out prematurely (disaster) or only go up halfway and waste time when it's windy and ruin the entire day.  

 

The stinker play is after you round the upwind leg in coastal races, the wind is up and after a while on an outboard lead on the genoa the call is to go to the reaching kite to go faster downwind.  Everything is powered up, unlike a W/L race.  Then the best protocol is to have the bowman sitting at the suitcase after setting the pole, etc., controlling the guy prefeed, sneaking the  spinnaker head under the genoa with tension so the whole kite snakes up behind the genoa before the sheet trimer powers it up.  Then, down comes the genoa.  Hot crews can combine the hoist and genoa down process.

 

Sail transitions are different depending on apparent wind, sea state and wind angle.  I tire of conversing with supposed pit men who always close the halyard clutch, put four wraps on the winch and then can't keep up with me at the mast during a hoist in 4kts true.  Hey dude, open the clutch no wraps on the winch keep up with me!  Slam the clutch down when you feel overpowering resistance. Losers.

 

Anyway, the best  thing about having a tight crew is seeing boats ahead and boats behind at  roundings lose massively because they don't have a clue about how to to do the sail transition, or fail during the downwind leg when transitions are  necessary. Meat in my  locker!



#763 bowgal98

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 01:20 AM

 

Don't waste time trying to jump the last couple of feet, if you can't move it, just get down onto the winch handle and crank it up.

 

Always unclip the straps on the spin turtle, and always clip the turtle to the boat.

Minor disagreements here.  

 

If the mastman-pit don't ring the bell, grinding will take a while and other boats will gain.  Loser.  Somebody has fucked up. Usually caused by an overzealous sheet trimmer inflating the kite when it's only halfway up.

 

Don't always unclip the tack and clew turtle straps; in big air the kite can come out prematurely, go under the boat and waste thousands of dollars of the skipper's kitty.  

 

Halyard because it's reversed Velcro has to be unVelcroed seconds prior to hoist, and prefeed the guy can be done by a trimmer with some grunt blowing the suitcase Velcro open at the last second.

 

I'm dismayed by newbie bowmen who'd done 30 light air hoists and think it's always a hook the suitcase to the lifelines, open up the suitcase Velcro completely and round with a beautiful fast hoist.  Different conditions require different procedures, seen too many kites plop out prematurely (disaster) or only go up halfway and waste time when it's windy and ruin the entire day.  

 

The stinker play is after you round the upwind leg in coastal races, the wind is up and after a while on an outboard lead on the genoa the call is to go to the reaching kite to go faster downwind.  Everything is powered up, unlike a W/L race.  Then the best protocol is to have the bowman sitting at the suitcase after setting the pole, etc., controlling the guy prefeed, sneaking the  spinnaker head under the genoa with tension so the whole kite snakes up behind the genoa before the sheet trimer powers it up.  Then, down comes the genoa.  Hot crews can combine the hoist and genoa down process.

 

Sail transitions are different depending on apparent wind, sea state and wind angle.  I tire of conversing with supposed pit men who always close the halyard clutch, put four wraps on the winch and then can't keep up with me at the mast during a hoist in 4kts true.  Hey dude, open the clutch no wraps on the winch keep up with me!  Slam the clutch down when you feel overpowering resistance. Losers.

 

Anyway, the best  thing about having a tight crew is seeing boats ahead and boats behind at  roundings lose massively because they don't have a clue about how to to do the sail transition, or fail during the downwind leg when transitions are  necessary. Meat in my  locker!

 

+1!

 

I like to wait until the last minute to blow the Velcro unless it is really light air.  Same goes if you are launching out of a hatch.  I've had arguments with a skipper telling me to get the hatch open BEFORE even setting the pole.  Again....fine in light air. In heavy air, I'll wait, thanks.  There is nothing good happening when the kite starts filling prematurely!  Had it happen to me once when the mast person thought I had forgotten to open the hatch, so he thought he would be helpful and just flick it open for me. Out went the kite!

 

And nothing worse than when you are on mast and have a ton of halyard at your feet.   <_<



#764 A Boy Named Stu

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 02:08 AM

And nothing worse than when you are on mast and have a ton of halyard at your feet.   <_<


^ that... Then it's the bows fault for not ringing the bell; and if you're really unlucky your hands are now destroyed.

#765 lahtris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 07:27 AM

This thread has helped me a lot, but it's a bitch to reread so I started saving the technical bits into a txt doc and it just kind of grew. Here it is, hope it helps. I might clean it up one day, but probably not. Thanks a ton to everyone who's posted advice on this thread.

 

terminology:
kicker=downhaul=downfucker holds pole down
brace=guy holds pole back
 
handsignals. Most helms or bowman i talk to generally use the same system that i use, but every once and a while i see something new. I use thumbs up or down for bow up or down, chop for no overlap (go ahead and throw the bow if you want), fist for hold position, thumb denotes half boat lengths, straight finger in circle for speed up, hand down for slow down, middle for your early, come back and sit on the rail if we're late. 
 
The general system that I have used on several boats is hold up the number of fingers that equals the number of boatlengths to the line. A closed fist means you are on the line, a thumbs down means we are over the line.
 
A long glare at the helmsman accompanied by a vigourous pointing up towards the line means we are going to be late, walking back from the bow to the rail with 30 secs to go means that we have been shafted and are off the back row.
 
bent pointer finger = 1/2 length 
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though). 
 
 
Clip new headsail halyard at mast while moving forward
 
After douse, clear to tack is priority. wait until up to speed (ask) before getting off rail
 
oil the pole fittings and anything else - check it all
 
Check all your own lines and pack all your own kites. When things go wrong you will get the blame, you might as well be sure it is your fault.
 
Before you put the pole up to set a spinnaker, you can take the halyards that would be locked out and move them to the other side of the pole in advance. Say the pole is going up on starboard, so you need to keep the starboard wing halyard free. It's probably attached to the deck or mast on the starboard side of the pole. With the pole attached and down, unclip the starboard wing from its stowage anchor and lead it around the port side of the pole AND the pole lift, then reattach it to the deck. Then once the pole is up, you can just run the halyard out to the bow.
 
get the fuck off the bow - it’s slow
 
watch for chafe
 
guy -> sheet bail (easier to get lazy guy off, faster to setup) OR guy and sheet to clew (in case sheet breaks or fouls)
 
if no kite plugged in, leave sheets hooked together on deck or clipped to kicker, rather than lifelines (stay on the rail, don’t go under jib)
 
jib sheets over pole but under topping lift (especially if topper comes out near forestay, clear to tack as soon as butt is down)
 
stand to windward of pole / opposite side of forestay to pole
 
LAZY SHEET
As soon as the "trip" call is made, this has become the active sheet. The afterguy must go slack in order for the pole to fall out promptly. This is why the lazy sheet has been tensioned through out the square-back.
 
PEELS
1. Get the new kite on deck get it set and clear
2. Attempt to retrieve the lazy guy or rig a secondary sheet, clip it to the clew of the new kite
3. Tie a long light line to the tack of the new kite (optional; sometimes can carry the tack in step 4)
4. Climb your fat ass out the end of the pole, get safe and comfy, you'll be there for a couple minutes
5. Use a strop/handcuff to clip the current kite to the pole or sheet ring
6. Fire the current kite from the normal sheet/tack clip so it's haning off the strop/handcuff
7. Pull the tack out with you if you didn't take it out with you in step 4.
8. Hoist the new kite
9. Fire the old kite off the strop/handcuff
10. Laugh at the rest of crew retrieving the old kite
11. Retrieve the strop/handcuff
12. Slide back in to the boat.
13 If required swing out on a halyard to set the active sheet back or hook the guy/sheet back on (optional)
 
Q: How do you get sheets on the new chute while you have the old one flying? Sorry for such noob questions, I'm just getting into this keelboat stuff from dinghys.
 
A: Depends on the boat/size. Some have mentioned using the lazy guy, but we use a changing sheet (just a spare spin sheet kept aboard). If the boat isn't equiped with a changing sheet, then the chances are they aren't prepared to do what is necessary to peel spins.
 
When needed to put the original sheet back on the spin, on a bigger boat you can go out to the clew to attach on a halyard (pull yourself/swing out, attach sheet, let trimmers load up new sheet, unload old sheet, and release old sheet from the spin, ease yourself back to the rigging). This really depends on the boat size though. 
 
Q: How do I keep the jib sheets out of the pole jaws
 
A: The best solution posted here was to twist the pole upon trip taking the now open jaws out of alignment with the jibsheets. (end for end only)
 
Q:Lets say I need to clear a spin halyard on a fractional rig. Only 2 masthead halyards not counting the main - spin is on one and I'll go up on the other (don't really want to free climb unless absolutely necessary). How do you clear the halyards when you get up there? 
 
A: a short W/L don't worry about it. On a distance race, climb over the flying kite with the halyard attached [easiest way to climb over the top is to ask the pit to drop the spin a couple feet]. If the boat is around 35' or less, just do an outside hoist next time
A2: either tell the afterguard that the next peel has to be on the other jibe, or if we're trying to lay a mark/waypoint, we're probably reaching anyhow and won't suffer much from a 15 second change back down to a jib top. Remember in short races a peel is a last resort maneuver as it restricts your mobility for some time, offshore you should be able to jibe away for a minute or two without any great loss.
A3: a) If it´s the halyard crossed over the spi after consecutive peelings, don´t go all the way up, let one meter of slack and help yourself over the spi. It´s great!
B) If it´s tangled heavily due to your own mistake, just strop yourself to the halyard on the spin and have the one you are hanging on freed and untangle it while hanging on the one on the spin. 
 
Q: When do you drop the kite in the front hatch; when over the boom down the companionway [envelope drop]; when into conpanionway under boom?
A: Envelope easiest to control when shorthanded or windy
Hatch easier to relaunch
#TODO expand
 
Q: How to clear the spin halyard for the next set after the douse (if currently on wrong side)
 
A: 1. tie the two sheets together
2. tie the halyard on as well
3. make sure you have enough slack on the sheet
4. just before a tack dump the whole mess overboard
5. after the tack, and when you're doing full speed again pull the other sheet
6. sheets + halyard is coming to the new windward side, and are all clear and on the right side
 
You can do the majority of these things from the rail, so you don't have a lot of weight on the bow.
 
Q: How to dip pole gybe (2 guys[braces],  2 sheets, trigger pole jaw)
A: Boat goes square,
them up the back fly the kite off both sheets, 
the bow grabs the new brace and gets up the front. At this point both guys/braces are loose, 
the mast man yanks on the trip line which opens the jaw (and it stays open).
Mast then starts hauling the mast end up the mast,
the bow pulls on the kicker and the pole dips down so it passes inside the forestay (may take a bit of a topper ease from the pit).
As it passes by the bow slams the new guy/brace into the jaw (think about the orientation of the rope) and the pin trips.
Mast starts bringing the mast end back down and the bow gets the pole end behind clew ASAP (you'll regularly stuff it up and then you'll understand what we mean by cowboying) [sheet goes under/twists around pole]. 
Once the pole is back horizontal the back bring the new brace/guy on and ease the old sheet.
 
 
Q: where to set the pole for douse
On end for enders that = J, 
before the douse with the kite up in light and moderate conditions, lower the inboard end of the pole to a height that enables the outboard end to touch the deck just forward of the after leg of the pulpit that also allows the outboard end to be passed to either side of the headstay, AND allows the foredeck hatch to be opened-shut.
On many boats this is the bottom band measurement mark of the mainsail.
 
You will save time after the rounding the leeward mark with not having a crew raise or lower the inboard end to open the hatch, and permit a quick descision on weather the next windward mark will be either a gybe set or bear away set to consider which side the pole should be on. 
Also it prevents the pulpit being skewered aft of the pulpit legs for that embarrasing foop-up. 
 
Q: How to peel from asy to sym (44ft, pole)
 
A: Peeling from a masthead to a frac actually simplifies things a bit as your halyard choices etc. will already be made for you.
 
Going from A-kite (on the pole, I assume) to Sym, I reckon you've got two choices.
 
First choice, do the peel exactly how you would do it normally. Handcuff the old kit to the pole, clip the new kite to the guy, attach a changing sheet, and hoist, clean up the mess afterwards. DO NOT FORGET to attach the downhaul/foreguy if you didn't have one attached while the A-kite was up.
 
The other option which would be very simple, would be to transfer the load on the tack of the A-kite to the tack line, and let off the guy as you would do if you were going to jibe. Then disconnect the guy, basically set your Sym kite just like you would if the A wasn't there, and take it down at your leisure. This may not always be the desirable option as 1) you may have to head up to keep the A-kite full when it is not being poled back or 2) you may not want to head up and therefore will going a bit slower.
 
Peeling back to the A, I would be tempted to just set it on the tackline, with one sheet hooked up, then attach the rest of the gear once the old kite is down. Depending how far forward your tack line is, and your masthead/frac situation, it sounds like you would quite likely have to set the new kite outside the old one. This can be ugly but there's often not much you can do about it.
 
Q: How do I do bow on a mumm 30
A: I do bow on a Mumm 30 since October. Here is how we setup (there are other ways):
 
- 2 fractional halyards just above the headstay, coming out of the mast both on port
- 1 masthead halyard at the masthead, coming out on starboard
- 1 topper just below the headstay, coming out on starboard
- Spi in forehatch
- Doubble sheets/guys, end for end, pole stored on starboard on the rail. (you're hiking on it).
- Downhaul gets a LOT of slack and goes THROUGH the jib-sheets. Don't have to make loose anything when racing.
- Topper gets little slack when sailing upwind
- spi-halyard gets a lot of slack and is behind the spreaders
 
On the set:
- Slack on jib-sheets
- put pole in
- spi up
- jib down and rolled in front of downhaul
 
On the windward drop:
- unroll jib on right side, hoist it 
- Slack on downhaul!!!!!
- SLACK ON DOWNHAUL!!!!
- Clip of pole, get it vertical and drop it behind the jib (on it's spot)
- Spi down
 
On the kiwi-drop (or other leeward drop):
- unroll jib on right side, hoist it 
- Put pole down
- Slack on downhaul (a lot, because you have to gybe)
- Spi down
 
When sailing upwind and you need the guy in the pole, just slide the pole back and clip it in while hiking.
 
Peeling Spi's:
Masthead to chicken chute (fractional):
- peel-sheet to chicken chute, halyard to chicken chute (all inside)
- peel-shackle to old spi, spike old spi
- guy to chicken chute
- hoist chicken chute
- drop masthead through mailbox
 
Chicken chute to masthead:
Same way, but you have to rig the new chute outside
 
Since the chicken chute is only used in reaching (and is thus coming down on the same side as it got up, 90% of the times), always rig it with the leeward fractional halyard. This way you're never fucked with your next jib-peel.
 
Going from the S to A or A to S using the tack line works well, just make
sure you can reach the tack shackle when it it time to spike the A kite. 
 
Q: when do I switch from inside -> outside gybes (asy)
A: Switch from inside gybes to outside gybes at about 15kts TWS, give or take a bit depending on how prone to rounding up
the boat is.
 
Most assm's on larger boats have a batten sewn into the tack [or on the pole “rhino horn”] at an angle to the luff such that it will theoretically capture
the lazy sheet as you gybe...actual results may vary.
 
Q: how to keep spin from filling while hoisting (esp with no mastman)
A: Downhaul should be on. Prevents the pole from getting squared, and getting the spi full before it's top. After the "TOP!" call, they can square it.
A2: bow keeps the shoot bunched up as it goes up from hatch
 
Q: Where do i put my fid
A: I have the spinlock harness and the fid goes almost horizontal in an elastic 'pocket' on my back... Go to the shoe repair man and ask him to sow a piece of elastic band (wide and tapering) on the back. It is really nice and out of the way in this set-up.
 
Here's the deckware site with some pics of the set-up
 
Q: how to pack a jib turtle
A: roll clew end up, stuff into tack, zip tack over the top
 
Q: how to pack jib for quick hoist
A: no battens: flake down luff
battens: fold head up to front of turtle for easy attach
 
Q: What's a stretch and blow drop?
A: Probably just a standard leeward mark, round up...pull the chute under the genoa...stretching the the guy...and blowing the halyard. The sail will stream to leeward as the foredeck crew quickly gathers the chute in under the sail. All of the weather drop stuff is mainly on boats that don't disconnect the gear between sets typically. 
 
Q: How to keep lazy sheet clear
A: putting both the guy and lazy sheet into the pole end for the first hoist of the race....this stops the cowboying issue everytime for dip pole gybes. when the pole is tripped coming into the 1st gybe, both sheet & guy will pop clear
 
Q: How to communicate effectively?
A: Call everything by it's proper name, don't just scream sheet at the guys in the back, they might have six sheets to deal with and they've probably got their own issues, ease port kite sheet takes a split second longer, but tells the guys exactly what you need.
 
Q: How to switch from inside to outside gybes on asy?
A: When you position the kite for the set, run the head inboard out outboard of the (soon to be windward, i.e. lazy) sheet that attached the the clew; If you run the head inboard, your gybing around the outside. Conversely, if you rig the head outboard, you're gybing through the inside... [outboard of sail luff, not forestay]
 
- Always mark your chutes at the corners with a Sharpie on both sides in big letters "C", "C" and "H". This will help you make sure it gets in the bag correctly and also gives you a final check when hooking up the gear so it doesn't go up sideways - VERY slow and very embarrassing.
 
- While racing, there's rarely a time when you would have to slow the boat down by going forward to get the gear in the jaws. When on the rail on the pole side tack, reach back, disconnect the pole from the mast and slide the pole aft until you can easily reach the beak. Grab the guy (or sheet and guy) from where it lies on deck just forward of where you are sitting, lock it in and then slide the pole back forward and reattach to mast.
 
- Never take a headsail all the way forward while racing. Only take as much as you need to hook it up.
 
- As has been mentioned, pit and mast work for the bow. On the boat I race on, I call the trip as well as the hoist. The after guard can yell hoist all they want, but the chute doesn't come out of the bag until I either call for the hoist or say "clear to hoist". This is especially critical when a last minute change is called for (ex. - from a port hoist to a starboard hoist where the gear has to run and might still be in the process of connecting when the boat rounds). I've been aboard when a hoist is made in record time, but without a sail attached. 
 
- After a course has been set, get with the navigator and look at a chart. Understand the wind direction in relation to all headings throughout the race so you know if you'll need a jibe set, etc.
 
- Having problems with your mast is serious. You two need to have a very tight working relationship. I suggest you have the skipper outline responsibilities of each of you and impress upon him that teamwork is key here. If he wants the advantage of less weight forward in you as bowman, he should impress upon the mast with more muscle his need to use that muscle to the team's advantage. I very rarely leave the deck while racing and sails make their way to me up to the shrouds without my having to move off the rail.
 
- Life jacket - if there's any doubt, put it on. Remember that you are the most likely person in the water through no fault of your own. Back of boat makes a mistake and you might be over with a concussion. 
 
there are a couple kinds of bowmen, the first kind has no idea what he's doing but think he's the all-star of the team, then theres the kind that is alright on the bow but thinks he is the demi-god of sailing. Then, the best types are those that shut the fuck up and get their shit done and get it done well. If the skipper makes a crazy call, you just have to learn to adapt with what is called out and always be ready for what gets thrown at you. At this point, I'm not surprised when I have skippers change their minds from a leeward douse on the right gate to a mexican on the left. The thing is, ask the skipper every 5-10 minutes what kite he wants to use along with what set, even if it is extremely obvious what kind of set you will be doing, then ask him again on the layline to the windward mark. Then, get that kite, plug it all up and then hike your brains out. It's not going to help if you assume the skipper is going to want one thing and end up putting the wrong kite up because you assumed he wanted something else. 
 
Q: how to band a kite and why
A:Did so last year on 150-160m2 kites
banded the A0, A2, S2 and S4 (didn't do A1) for quicker hoists and better handling. For WL-racing we dropped the kite in the forward hatch and hoisted from there the second time downwind. Offshores everything got wooled after a drop and we usually spiked the kite at the tack (easier to wool in the maincabin than in the forward cabin). Just use wool and a couple of people, keep the tack on the outside and everything else tucked away in it. 
We band for winy days, and we always band the code 0, and most likely the 3A. We do it because it keeps the sail from going wild on its way up on a windy day, when it is banded there is no way its going to fill unless you crank on the sheet. Just take the leach and the luff and put them together, then just roll up the excess material until it is rolled up to the leech, then take the appropriate amount of yarn tie a square not or whatever knot you like around it.
No banding on anything shorter than 50' it's not necessary regardless of the breeze. Your mastmonster should be able to hump it up there fast enough. 
make sure the trimmer or helm dont get a little over anxious and square back or put the bow up too soon. 
 
Q: Rig your boat for easier peeling
A: My boat last year was rigged by an ex-bowman and as a result our tackline featured a ring with dual tylaskies on it for easy peeling... 
 
Q: Where do I clip while climbing out the pole?
A: Beener to downfucker for guidence and strop over topper for worktime. 
 
If I need to climb out I'll attach to the downfucker to keep me attached. Once out there I clip onto the topper so I can then have both hands free to do what's needed. You know adjust nuts, sit back and enjoy the scenery, Flip the backenders the bird, Etc.
 
If being hoisted out it's actually less important except that something in me says "don't trust the back ender to not leg go at an inoportune moment. So I'll just throw the beener onto the topper. I've never been dropped and I do actually trust my Pitmonster, but never the less I clip on. 
 
One thing though. Make sure you strop is long enough that your head hangs BELOW the pole. If you're spiking the kite the pole will jump and you do NOT want your Noggin in the way!
 
Q: Hatch vs companionway
A1: aside from the first set, i have trouble seeing the advantage to a bag launch and a lot of disadvantages (all assuming the bow is not so poorly designed that you'll tear the chute easily). For a bag launch you have to have someone downstairs for a much longer time, you have to drag the sail on deck which might take another person off the rail for a minute, time spent hooking up bag, sometimes impaired jib shape, risk of kite washing out, risk of fuckup with the turtle not being prepared... (left a strap tied, hooks maybe didnt stay shit and opened and the bag flies off the boat.. (havent done that one yet, but i have come close)) etc. My general deal anymore is to tie in the kite downstairs while its still in the bag, dump out the bag, and be done with it. If we need to change kites, then i might do a bag launch and then deal with the unused kite on the DW. 
 
A2: I agree with hatch launches on every type of boat (Symetrical or Asymetrical). Douse it on the side your going to set it on next. It will go up the same way it went down. Depending on the size of the boat, you may want to have someone below to help pull in the kite. You should be taking down the kite early enough that you can have everyone hiking as soon as the boat turns upwind. 
 
Q: crossed masthead halyards on say prod boat
A: So the P halyard was simply crossed on top of the SB one at the MH? Depending on conditions, you might not have to do much/anything:
If you are planning to gybe anyway, attach the P halyard to the tip of the sprit and gybe the kite inside of it.
If you want to/need to peel while still on SB gybe, scoot out to tip of sprit and lead the P halyard underneath the kite - you should be able to do an outside hoist that way (very slowly and carefully).
In either case proceed with caution - if it works all should be good, but if not the mess could be considerable. 
 
Q: on unhooking
A:
any new bowman must resist the urge to unhook things. If it went down, it will go back up. FUBAR happens when you unhook things on a messy bow and sheets don't get run right. If a line get trapped, you will hear it from the back and for once in their lives they will be right. 
 
Q: It's a TP52 with a long fixed bowsprit. we were doing a shore passage race, rounded the top mark on port and hoisted the A2 with the port halyard. Later on we had gybed to port tack and the wind died and so we had to put the A1 up. (halyards now crossed)
A: If you are starboard halyard on starboard gybe then get your port halyard outside the kite and hoist outside, if on port halyard on starboard gybe then hoist inside.
 
If you need to do an outside hoist, do an outside hoist, if that means taking the new halyard all the way to the back of the bus to get it outside the kite then do that. If the halyard is on the wrong side of the kite, then you've screwed up and are now screwed, the brains trust will not love you for limiting their options!
 
If you are using a pole, then organising your halyards prior to a gybe may well be necessary to avoid screwing around throwing the halyard over the pole. You can do this by taking the spare halyard to the bow before every gybe - probably not worth going on a round the cans but can be useful in a long coastal or offshore race. 
 
Q: tying into halyards
Also, probably another dumb question but which situation do you think would warrant a backup halyard into the harness, peels vs going full mast to fix instruments or clear halyards and such.
 
Peels = splash
Full Mast = bigger splash and perhaps a splat. 
 
Going aloft use a halyard with a shackle and another halyard with a bowline. If there's only one halyard to get you where you need to be up there use a bowline, and tie it yourself.
 
Q: how to clear jib sheets on end to end pole
A: Shove the pole backwards on the boat so that the front is behind both jib sheets (preferably not into the helmsman's head, and maybe into a nice bag hanging off the boom but on the deck is fine), and everything will stay clear so long as you douse outboard of both jib sheets. If you are doing end-for-end jibes, the assumption is that you can toss the pole around pretty easily. Just make sure the topper and foreguy are both blown with enough slack to allow the pole to clear backward. Ignore the sheets and just shove the pole backwards and you should not have to disconnect anything, regardless of whether the pole shove-back occurs pre or post-douse.
 
Stripping the pole pre-douse has two advantages: 
 
1) It makes windward takedowns easy, especially into a forward hatch, thus setting the boat up for an easy hoist on the same side next time around. Just toss any jib sheet on the deck behind the open forward hatch and that automatically ensures the kite being on the correct (outboard) side of the jib sheets. 
 
2) Gate decisions can be a little more last-second.
 
In heavy air and/or if reaching instead of being deep downwind, it helps to have tweakers snugged on the spinnaker sheets before stripping the pole. It all requires a bit of extra attention by the spinnaker trimmer if you want to keep the kite drawing for those last few seconds into the mark, but the boathandling advantages of never disconnecting anything are well worth it. 
 
A2:When you douse the jib, roll it up forward into the pulpit. When you trip the pole, make sure the starboard jib sheet is flicked off, and the port jib sheet is put over the new outboard end of the pole.
 
A3: In short though: When dousing shove/roll the jib forward into the pullpit as has been suggested. 
When it's time to gybe: you pick up the lazy jib sheet (which is lying on deck to leeward) 
Trip the sheet off the pole then trip the pole off the mast (this is for light/medium air. Heavy air is slightly different. 
place the lazy jib sheet over the pole and attach pole to new working spinnaker sheet and help it forward toward the clue. 
As the pole is coming across so you can attach it to the mast clear the jib sheet off and attach to the mast. 
Yell "MADE" as loud as you can. 
Repeat for any further gybes. 
 
A3+:^^ I kinda get what you're getting at for the gybe, but let's look after the good race sails by scrunching them into the pulpit & your owner probably wonders why the sails look so fcked by 3/4 of the way through the season... nice one dumbass......
 
aside: Fraculator
PostDateIcon December 31st, 2011 | Author: Bob Roitblat
a line primarily used to fraculate–help rake a mast forward while sailing downwind. It is also used to prevent a jib that has been teed-up from catching the wind and rising too soon or from interfering with a spinnaker jibe. A fraculator consists of a line connected to the stemhead at one end and with a clip or quick-release shackle at the other. The clip or shackle is connected to the bail on a jib halyard’s shackle after the jib has been run through the pre-feeder and into the head foil. The mast can be raked forward by tensioning the jib halyard. Also referred to as a defraculator, fracalator, fractionator, frapilator, or magic string. Its abbreviated form is frac.
 
A4: Thanks for the tips Loopy. Boat is a Soverel 33. Boat just got a brand new #1, so bunching that one in the bow is less appealing, but the #2 is well past expiration date. #3 rarely gets used, but is probably small enough that it wouldn't need to be shoved forward.
Worth it to train the mast man to flake the jib on the way down, or just drop it and get off the bow?
 
A5: There's a balance between the two. Make sure you've rigged a Fuck-U-Later, so you can load the head back through the prefeeder and into the foil. The mast/pit peeps can then snug the jib halyard. Makes hoisting at the next mark faster/easier.
 
A6:as far as dealing with the jib, i either unclip the head and tack (less common) and slide them back and then forward, flick it around the front of the foreguy (only works for non overlappers) or take the forguy off the deck or pole, flick the jib through, and reconnect. this is how i did on a Farr30 and Corby33. For an overlapper i might consider sliding the jib back more often, keeping the jib halyard on the fraculater (what i did on a Tripp37 i sailed on for beercans a few summers ago). Either that or get rid of the pole before you put the jib up if you have the angle to do that. 
 
A7: I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days! 
 
IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.
 
Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.
 
***Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.
 
Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...
 
Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole. 
Reclip pole, 
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".
 
Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.
 
If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.
 
A8: [asy] ”An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."
 
A8+: i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it... 
 
A8++:That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.
 
Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.
 
A8+++: During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean. 
 
Note: This is assuming inside gybes. 
 
Q: So where is the TRL [tack retrieval line] at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?
 
A: I generally tie the line off to the tack of the sail and feed it down the hatch that way when I'm hauling ass on it as we go for the douse it's feeding into the hatch for the sewer person and so that it's beneath the kite in the hole and easier to clean up.
 
If you're rigged for inside gybes then don't put it over the sheet with the tackline or else your first gybe will be messy. I generally rig it and toss it flaked down the hatch and forward so that it is totally away from the kite. 
 
A2: My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.
 
When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.
 
You could try a take down line from the midpoint of the foot or a belly button patch about 18 inches above the mid-point. Using this type of a takedown line has it's pros and cons. One big plus is that you're pulling the foot in first. Since you'll blow the sheet and the tackline at the same time, the kite will depower VERY quickly. The downside is that you now have this line attached to the kite that can get in the way or caught on something. You'll need some sort of pocket up by the tack to store it. As the kite is being pre-fed to the end of the sprit, you have to take it out and attach it to something. Large asym boats will lead the takedown line down to a fancy take system taht's driven off their grinding pedestal(s). 
 
A3: the takedown line is kind of a PITA as well since you have to put it back in the keepers along the foot. but, it is a more effective way to do things than the tack retrieval. 
 
A4: On the Soto40 last year we ran a takedown line similar to the one described by RATM, but due to Class rules, the takedown line could not be powered by a device, so no fancy 1:2 system or wheel inside or add any extra equipment not already supplied or onboard. We simply had a drop line on each kite long enough to exit out of the sheet hole in the side of the cockpit. We always did left hand takedowns, so depending on which side of the gate we went at the bottom, it was either a leeward or weather drop. The drop line led from the port side of the kite, down the fore hatch, past the port side of the mast, through a turning block (Supplied Harken High Load Snatchie) and entered the cockpit as mentioned through the sheet hole. 
 
As the drop was called the bowman hauled on the dropline, the kite trimmer once he'd blown the sheet, wailed on the drop line and in concert with the tackline and halyard going at the right time, the kite ended up almost fully in the boat, the pitman would jump down once most of the kite was aboard and do a quick pull on the remainder of the mess on deck from below and if needed run the tapes. The drop line could be disconnected for the second hoist as it was always a 4 leg ww/ race although if it didn't get disconnected, it was no hassle
 
A4+: Need to be careful with burping the halyard so that part of the foot doesn't go into the water. Blowing the sheet & tack and hauling in on a TRL keeps the kite up in the air while you get the foot in hand before blowing the halyard. 
 
A5: J 120, All douses are done with a TRL, and we are allways rigged for inside gybes. Depending on the breeze either 1 or 2 people on the TRL, and somebody in the sewer (we call squirrel). If the TRL is long enough pass it down below to the sewer. TRL is led over the top of lazy spin sheet during the douse.
 
1. Skipper calls douse
2. Blow the working spin sheet
3. Blow the tack line. Tack goes down the hatch first, and haul the entire foot around the head stay (windward douse).
4. Bow calls for halyard, and chute comes down on deck
 
During a leeward douse, it helps to have 2 guys on the TRL so that the forward most person can let go of TRL, and help the tack up under the jib foot, and over the life lines if the jib is sheeted to tight. Also the pit guy must realize not to smoke the halyard, or your shrimping. Pit guy needs to give the bow as much halyard as they can handle without letting the chute get in the water to much.
 
When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.
 
A5+: too long to have the squirrel below dealing with a mess. can't afford the weight and by the time it's sorted, we're probably back to the winward mark. 
 
Q: hand signals again
A: 1-4 on the windward hand = boatlengths. When we're inside one bl I twitch the index finger up & down as if I'm waving with it to signal that it's less than 1. If it's light/quiet enough and we're within 1 then I'll talk to the afterguard about distance in terms of 1/4 BL's. Swinging an open palm through 90 degrees like you're chopping the air signals that there is no overlap with a nearby boat. Holding up a closed fist is "hold" to not change heading either because you're overlapped with someone or there's a starboard tack boat on a converging course. Thumbs down is "over early". Holding a palm opened downward and patting down as if you're patting a dog is "slow down, you're early" and a "come on" motion means 'send it' towards the line.
 
On boats with non overlapping headsails, as long as the tactician has a competent head on his shoulders, you shouldn't have to be too aggressive with pointing out boats on a converging course or who have rights. On a boat with overlapping headsails or one without a tactician you should play it by ear and be looking around more to see what's coming at you that they may not see...
 
A2: bent pointer finger = 1/2 length 
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though). 
 
i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.
 
Also, I just remembered that I like to flash back a pinching motion to the helmsman, with eye contact if possible, to show we're only feet off. 
 
Q: two shackle handcuffs
A: Why two shackles on handcuffs?  Sew a short spectra webbing loop through the bail of a single (preferably Tylaska) shackle.  Cow Hitch (luggage tag hitch) the loop to the pole ring or guy bail, your decision which.  Proceed as usual.  When done remove from pole ring or guy bail.  Half the cost of two shackle handcuffs.
 
A2:I use a Tylaska, and a big (3/8) Vectran soft shackle taped to the bail. Hasn't failed me yet.
 
——
 
Set up:
On Symm kites you can keep the jib sheets over the pole and next to the mast, not ahead of the pole lift which uses lots more sheet that can get tangled up and puts them right in your way when you are jibing. Then simply unclip the pole lift fast after the takedown and you are "ready to tack"
 
Cleat the butt end of the pole well, otherwise it will fall, but only if you are standing under it.
 
On a jibe set or a late tack to the weather mark, you can hook up the halyard and pole lift ahead of time, just stand there and keep it out of the way until the jib is past then jump it fast, You will be ready before the back of the boat is.
 
If you wind up jumping a halyard during any hoist, make sure that the pit is keeping up with you. If you look down at your feet and see 20 feet of halyard piled there and about that time the kite fills, ouch!
 
Don't waste time trying to jump the last couple of feet, if you can't move it, just get down onto the winch handle and crank it up. [disagree, get it up before it fills]
 
Always unclip the straps on the spin turtle [disagree big air: Halyard because it's reversed Velcro has to be unVelcroed seconds prior to hoist, and prefeed the guy can be done by a trimmer with some grunt blowing the suitcase Velcro open at the last second.], and always clip the turtle to the boat.
 
The stinker play is after you round the upwind leg in coastal races, the wind is up and after a while on an outboard lead on the genoa the call is to go to the reaching kite to go faster downwind.  Everything is powered up, unlike a W/L race.  Then the best protocol is to have the bowman sitting at the suitcase after setting the pole, etc., controlling the guy prefeed, sneaking the  spinnaker head under the genoa with tension so the whole kite snakes up behind the genoa before the sheet trimer powers it up.  Then, down comes the genoa.  Hot crews can combine the hoist and genoa down process.
 
Sail transitions are different depending on apparent wind, sea state and wind angle.  I tire of conversing with supposed pit men who always close the halyard clutch, put four wraps on the winch and then can't keep up with me at the mast during a hoist in 4kts true.  Hey dude, open the clutch no wraps on the winch keep up with me!  Slam the clutch down when you feel overpowering resistance. Losers.
 
I like to wait until the last minute to blow the Velcro unless it is really light air.  Same goes if you are launching out of a hatch.  I've had arguments with a skipper telling me to get the hatch open BEFORE even setting the pole.  Again....fine in light air. In heavy air, I'll wait, thanks.  There is nothing good happening when the kite starts filling prematurely!  Had it happen to me once when the mast person thought I had forgotten to open the hatch, so he thought he would be helpful and just flick it open for me. Out went the kite!
 
 


#766 JBSF

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 07:54 AM

That's good stuff.  But you neglected the most important information on how to be a good bowman:  

 

How to bang the owner's daughter without getting caught.   :lol:



#767 bowman81

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:27 AM

That's good stuff.  But you neglected the most important information on how to be a good bowman:  

 

How to bang the owner's daughter without getting caught.   :lol:

 

Do we really care if we get caught....i mean, a love puddle on the 0.6oz runner on show for the entire fleet at a mark rounding should be a thing to brag about.  Now if it's the owners trophy wife...maybe your safety relies on your ability to keep the smile off your face



#768 couchsurfer

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:46 AM

 

This thread has helped me a lot, but it's a bitch to reread so I started saving the technical bits into a txt doc and it just kind of grew. Here it is, hope it helps. I might clean it up one day, but probably not. Thanks a ton to everyone who's posted advice on this thread.

 

terminology:
kicker=downhaul=downfucker holds pole down
brace=guy holds pole back
 
handsignals. Most helms or bowman i talk to generally use the same system that i use, but every once and a while i see something new. I use thumbs up or down for bow up or down, chop for no overlap (go ahead and throw the bow if you want), fist for hold position, thumb denotes half boat lengths, straight finger in circle for speed up, hand down for slow down, middle for your early, come back and sit on the rail if we're late. 
 
The general system that I have used on several boats is hold up the number of fingers that equals the number of boatlengths to the line. A closed fist means you are on the line, a thumbs down means we are over the line.
 
A long glare at the helmsman accompanied by a vigourous pointing up towards the line means we are going to be late, walking back from the bow to the rail with 30 secs to go means that we have been shafted and are off the back row.
 
bent pointer finger = 1/2 length 
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though). 
 
 
Clip new headsail halyard at mast while moving forward
 
After douse, clear to tack is priority. wait until up to speed (ask) before getting off rail
 
oil the pole fittings and anything else - check it all
 
Check all your own lines and pack all your own kites. When things go wrong you will get the blame, you might as well be sure it is your fault.
 
Before you put the pole up to set a spinnaker, you can take the halyards that would be locked out and move them to the other side of the pole in advance. Say the pole is going up on starboard, so you need to keep the starboard wing halyard free. It's probably attached to the deck or mast on the starboard side of the pole. With the pole attached and down, unclip the starboard wing from its stowage anchor and lead it around the port side of the pole AND the pole lift, then reattach it to the deck. Then once the pole is up, you can just run the halyard out to the bow.
 
get the fuck off the bow - it’s slow
 
watch for chafe
 
guy -> sheet bail (easier to get lazy guy off, faster to setup) OR guy and sheet to clew (in case sheet breaks or fouls)
 
if no kite plugged in, leave sheets hooked together on deck or clipped to kicker, rather than lifelines (stay on the rail, don’t go under jib)
 
jib sheets over pole but under topping lift (especially if topper comes out near forestay, clear to tack as soon as butt is down)
 
stand to windward of pole / opposite side of forestay to pole
 
LAZY SHEET
As soon as the "trip" call is made, this has become the active sheet. The afterguy must go slack in order for the pole to fall out promptly. This is why the lazy sheet has been tensioned through out the square-back.
 
PEELS
1. Get the new kite on deck get it set and clear
2. Attempt to retrieve the lazy guy or rig a secondary sheet, clip it to the clew of the new kite
3. Tie a long light line to the tack of the new kite (optional; sometimes can carry the tack in step 4)
4. Climb your fat ass out the end of the pole, get safe and comfy, you'll be there for a couple minutes
5. Use a strop/handcuff to clip the current kite to the pole or sheet ring
6. Fire the current kite from the normal sheet/tack clip so it's haning off the strop/handcuff
7. Pull the tack out with you if you didn't take it out with you in step 4.
8. Hoist the new kite
9. Fire the old kite off the strop/handcuff
10. Laugh at the rest of crew retrieving the old kite
11. Retrieve the strop/handcuff
12. Slide back in to the boat.
13 If required swing out on a halyard to set the active sheet back or hook the guy/sheet back on (optional)
 
Q: How do you get sheets on the new chute while you have the old one flying? Sorry for such noob questions, I'm just getting into this keelboat stuff from dinghys.
 
A: Depends on the boat/size. Some have mentioned using the lazy guy, but we use a changing sheet (just a spare spin sheet kept aboard). If the boat isn't equiped with a changing sheet, then the chances are they aren't prepared to do what is necessary to peel spins.
 
When needed to put the original sheet back on the spin, on a bigger boat you can go out to the clew to attach on a halyard (pull yourself/swing out, attach sheet, let trimmers load up new sheet, unload old sheet, and release old sheet from the spin, ease yourself back to the rigging). This really depends on the boat size though. 
 
Q: How do I keep the jib sheets out of the pole jaws
 
A: The best solution posted here was to twist the pole upon trip taking the now open jaws out of alignment with the jibsheets. (end for end only)
 
Q:Lets say I need to clear a spin halyard on a fractional rig. Only 2 masthead halyards not counting the main - spin is on one and I'll go up on the other (don't really want to free climb unless absolutely necessary). How do you clear the halyards when you get up there? 
 
A: a short W/L don't worry about it. On a distance race, climb over the flying kite with the halyard attached [easiest way to climb over the top is to ask the pit to drop the spin a couple feet]. If the boat is around 35' or less, just do an outside hoist next time
A2: either tell the afterguard that the next peel has to be on the other jibe, or if we're trying to lay a mark/waypoint, we're probably reaching anyhow and won't suffer much from a 15 second change back down to a jib top. Remember in short races a peel is a last resort maneuver as it restricts your mobility for some time, offshore you should be able to jibe away for a minute or two without any great loss.
A3: a) If it´s the halyard crossed over the spi after consecutive peelings, don´t go all the way up, let one meter of slack and help yourself over the spi. It´s great!
B) If it´s tangled heavily due to your own mistake, just strop yourself to the halyard on the spin and have the one you are hanging on freed and untangle it while hanging on the one on the spin. 
 
Q: When do you drop the kite in the front hatch; when over the boom down the companionway [envelope drop]; when into conpanionway under boom?
A: Envelope easiest to control when shorthanded or windy
Hatch easier to relaunch
#TODO expand
 
Q: How to clear the spin halyard for the next set after the douse (if currently on wrong side)
 
A: 1. tie the two sheets together
2. tie the halyard on as well
3. make sure you have enough slack on the sheet
4. just before a tack dump the whole mess overboard
5. after the tack, and when you're doing full speed again pull the other sheet
6. sheets + halyard is coming to the new windward side, and are all clear and on the right side
 
You can do the majority of these things from the rail, so you don't have a lot of weight on the bow.
 
Q: How to dip pole gybe (2 guys[braces],  2 sheets, trigger pole jaw)
A: Boat goes square,
them up the back fly the kite off both sheets, 
the bow grabs the new brace and gets up the front. At this point both guys/braces are loose, 
the mast man yanks on the trip line which opens the jaw (and it stays open).
Mast then starts hauling the mast end up the mast,
the bow pulls on the kicker and the pole dips down so it passes inside the forestay (may take a bit of a topper ease from the pit).
As it passes by the bow slams the new guy/brace into the jaw (think about the orientation of the rope) and the pin trips.
Mast starts bringing the mast end back down and the bow gets the pole end behind clew ASAP (you'll regularly stuff it up and then you'll understand what we mean by cowboying) [sheet goes under/twists around pole]. 
Once the pole is back horizontal the back bring the new brace/guy on and ease the old sheet.
 
 
Q: where to set the pole for douse
On end for enders that = J, 
before the douse with the kite up in light and moderate conditions, lower the inboard end of the pole to a height that enables the outboard end to touch the deck just forward of the after leg of the pulpit that also allows the outboard end to be passed to either side of the headstay, AND allows the foredeck hatch to be opened-shut.
On many boats this is the bottom band measurement mark of the mainsail.
 
You will save time after the rounding the leeward mark with not having a crew raise or lower the inboard end to open the hatch, and permit a quick descision on weather the next windward mark will be either a gybe set or bear away set to consider which side the pole should be on. 
Also it prevents the pulpit being skewered aft of the pulpit legs for that embarrasing foop-up. 
 
Q: How to peel from asy to sym (44ft, pole)
 
A: Peeling from a masthead to a frac actually simplifies things a bit as your halyard choices etc. will already be made for you.
 
Going from A-kite (on the pole, I assume) to Sym, I reckon you've got two choices.
 
First choice, do the peel exactly how you would do it normally. Handcuff the old kit to the pole, clip the new kite to the guy, attach a changing sheet, and hoist, clean up the mess afterwards. DO NOT FORGET to attach the downhaul/foreguy if you didn't have one attached while the A-kite was up.
 
The other option which would be very simple, would be to transfer the load on the tack of the A-kite to the tack line, and let off the guy as you would do if you were going to jibe. Then disconnect the guy, basically set your Sym kite just like you would if the A wasn't there, and take it down at your leisure. This may not always be the desirable option as 1) you may have to head up to keep the A-kite full when it is not being poled back or 2) you may not want to head up and therefore will going a bit slower.
 
Peeling back to the A, I would be tempted to just set it on the tackline, with one sheet hooked up, then attach the rest of the gear once the old kite is down. Depending how far forward your tack line is, and your masthead/frac situation, it sounds like you would quite likely have to set the new kite outside the old one. This can be ugly but there's often not much you can do about it.
 
Q: How do I do bow on a mumm 30
A: I do bow on a Mumm 30 since October. Here is how we setup (there are other ways):
 
- 2 fractional halyards just above the headstay, coming out of the mast both on port
- 1 masthead halyard at the masthead, coming out on starboard
- 1 topper just below the headstay, coming out on starboard
- Spi in forehatch
- Doubble sheets/guys, end for end, pole stored on starboard on the rail. (you're hiking on it).
- Downhaul gets a LOT of slack and goes THROUGH the jib-sheets. Don't have to make loose anything when racing.
- Topper gets little slack when sailing upwind
- spi-halyard gets a lot of slack and is behind the spreaders
 
On the set:
- Slack on jib-sheets
- put pole in
- spi up
- jib down and rolled in front of downhaul
 
On the windward drop:
- unroll jib on right side, hoist it 
- Slack on downhaul!!!!!
- SLACK ON DOWNHAUL!!!!
- Clip of pole, get it vertical and drop it behind the jib (on it's spot)
- Spi down
 
On the kiwi-drop (or other leeward drop):
- unroll jib on right side, hoist it 
- Put pole down
- Slack on downhaul (a lot, because you have to gybe)
- Spi down
 
When sailing upwind and you need the guy in the pole, just slide the pole back and clip it in while hiking.
 
Peeling Spi's:
Masthead to chicken chute (fractional):
- peel-sheet to chicken chute, halyard to chicken chute (all inside)
- peel-shackle to old spi, spike old spi
- guy to chicken chute
- hoist chicken chute
- drop masthead through mailbox
 
Chicken chute to masthead:
Same way, but you have to rig the new chute outside
 
Since the chicken chute is only used in reaching (and is thus coming down on the same side as it got up, 90% of the times), always rig it with the leeward fractional halyard. This way you're never fucked with your next jib-peel.
 
Going from the S to A or A to S using the tack line works well, just make
sure you can reach the tack shackle when it it time to spike the A kite. 
 
Q: when do I switch from inside -> outside gybes (asy)
A: Switch from inside gybes to outside gybes at about 15kts TWS, give or take a bit depending on how prone to rounding up
the boat is.
 
Most assm's on larger boats have a batten sewn into the tack [or on the pole “rhino horn”] at an angle to the luff such that it will theoretically capture
the lazy sheet as you gybe...actual results may vary.
 
Q: how to keep spin from filling while hoisting (esp with no mastman)
A: Downhaul should be on. Prevents the pole from getting squared, and getting the spi full before it's top. After the "TOP!" call, they can square it.
A2: bow keeps the shoot bunched up as it goes up from hatch
 
Q: Where do i put my fid
A: I have the spinlock harness and the fid goes almost horizontal in an elastic 'pocket' on my back... Go to the shoe repair man and ask him to sow a piece of elastic band (wide and tapering) on the back. It is really nice and out of the way in this set-up.
 
Here's the deckware site with some pics of the set-up
 
Q: how to pack a jib turtle
A: roll clew end up, stuff into tack, zip tack over the top
 
Q: how to pack jib for quick hoist
A: no battens: flake down luff
battens: fold head up to front of turtle for easy attach
 
Q: What's a stretch and blow drop?
A: Probably just a standard leeward mark, round up...pull the chute under the genoa...stretching the the guy...and blowing the halyard. The sail will stream to leeward as the foredeck crew quickly gathers the chute in under the sail. All of the weather drop stuff is mainly on boats that don't disconnect the gear between sets typically. 
 
Q: How to keep lazy sheet clear
A: putting both the guy and lazy sheet into the pole end for the first hoist of the race....this stops the cowboying issue everytime for dip pole gybes. when the pole is tripped coming into the 1st gybe, both sheet & guy will pop clear
 
Q: How to communicate effectively?
A: Call everything by it's proper name, don't just scream sheet at the guys in the back, they might have six sheets to deal with and they've probably got their own issues, ease port kite sheet takes a split second longer, but tells the guys exactly what you need.
 
Q: How to switch from inside to outside gybes on asy?
A: When you position the kite for the set, run the head inboard out outboard of the (soon to be windward, i.e. lazy) sheet that attached the the clew; If you run the head inboard, your gybing around the outside. Conversely, if you rig the head outboard, you're gybing through the inside... [outboard of sail luff, not forestay]
 
- Always mark your chutes at the corners with a Sharpie on both sides in big letters "C", "C" and "H". This will help you make sure it gets in the bag correctly and also gives you a final check when hooking up the gear so it doesn't go up sideways - VERY slow and very embarrassing.
 
- While racing, there's rarely a time when you would have to slow the boat down by going forward to get the gear in the jaws. When on the rail on the pole side tack, reach back, disconnect the pole from the mast and slide the pole aft until you can easily reach the beak. Grab the guy (or sheet and guy) from where it lies on deck just forward of where you are sitting, lock it in and then slide the pole back forward and reattach to mast.
 
- Never take a headsail all the way forward while racing. Only take as much as you need to hook it up.
 
- As has been mentioned, pit and mast work for the bow. On the boat I race on, I call the trip as well as the hoist. The after guard can yell hoist all they want, but the chute doesn't come out of the bag until I either call for the hoist or say "clear to hoist". This is especially critical when a last minute change is called for (ex. - from a port hoist to a starboard hoist where the gear has to run and might still be in the process of connecting when the boat rounds). I've been aboard when a hoist is made in record time, but without a sail attached. 
 
- After a course has been set, get with the navigator and look at a chart. Understand the wind direction in relation to all headings throughout the race so you know if you'll need a jibe set, etc.
 
- Having problems with your mast is serious. You two need to have a very tight working relationship. I suggest you have the skipper outline responsibilities of each of you and impress upon him that teamwork is key here. If he wants the advantage of less weight forward in you as bowman, he should impress upon the mast with more muscle his need to use that muscle to the team's advantage. I very rarely leave the deck while racing and sails make their way to me up to the shrouds without my having to move off the rail.
 
- Life jacket - if there's any doubt, put it on. Remember that you are the most likely person in the water through no fault of your own. Back of boat makes a mistake and you might be over with a concussion. 
 
there are a couple kinds of bowmen, the first kind has no idea what he's doing but think he's the all-star of the team, then theres the kind that is alright on the bow but thinks he is the demi-god of sailing. Then, the best types are those that shut the fuck up and get their shit done and get it done well. If the skipper makes a crazy call, you just have to learn to adapt with what is called out and always be ready for what gets thrown at you. At this point, I'm not surprised when I have skippers change their minds from a leeward douse on the right gate to a mexican on the left. The thing is, ask the skipper every 5-10 minutes what kite he wants to use along with what set, even if it is extremely obvious what kind of set you will be doing, then ask him again on the layline to the windward mark. Then, get that kite, plug it all up and then hike your brains out. It's not going to help if you assume the skipper is going to want one thing and end up putting the wrong kite up because you assumed he wanted something else. 
 
Q: how to band a kite and why
A:Did so last year on 150-160m2 kites
banded the A0, A2, S2 and S4 (didn't do A1) for quicker hoists and better handling. For WL-racing we dropped the kite in the forward hatch and hoisted from there the second time downwind. Offshores everything got wooled after a drop and we usually spiked the kite at the tack (easier to wool in the maincabin than in the forward cabin). Just use wool and a couple of people, keep the tack on the outside and everything else tucked away in it. 
We band for winy days, and we always band the code 0, and most likely the 3A. We do it because it keeps the sail from going wild on its way up on a windy day, when it is banded there is no way its going to fill unless you crank on the sheet. Just take the leach and the luff and put them together, then just roll up the excess material until it is rolled up to the leech, then take the appropriate amount of yarn tie a square not or whatever knot you like around it.
No banding on anything shorter than 50' it's not necessary regardless of the breeze. Your mastmonster should be able to hump it up there fast enough. 
make sure the trimmer or helm dont get a little over anxious and square back or put the bow up too soon. 
 
Q: Rig your boat for easier peeling
A: My boat last year was rigged by an ex-bowman and as a result our tackline featured a ring with dual tylaskies on it for easy peeling... 
 
Q: Where do I clip while climbing out the pole?
A: Beener to downfucker for guidence and strop over topper for worktime. 
 
If I need to climb out I'll attach to the downfucker to keep me attached. Once out there I clip onto the topper so I can then have both hands free to do what's needed. You know adjust nuts, sit back and enjoy the scenery, Flip the backenders the bird, Etc.
 
If being hoisted out it's actually less important except that something in me says "don't trust the back ender to not leg go at an inoportune moment. So I'll just throw the beener onto the topper. I've never been dropped and I do actually trust my Pitmonster, but never the less I clip on. 
 
One thing though. Make sure you strop is long enough that your head hangs BELOW the pole. If you're spiking the kite the pole will jump and you do NOT want your Noggin in the way!
 
Q: Hatch vs companionway
A1: aside from the first set, i have trouble seeing the advantage to a bag launch and a lot of disadvantages (all assuming the bow is not so poorly designed that you'll tear the chute easily). For a bag launch you have to have someone downstairs for a much longer time, you have to drag the sail on deck which might take another person off the rail for a minute, time spent hooking up bag, sometimes impaired jib shape, risk of kite washing out, risk of fuckup with the turtle not being prepared... (left a strap tied, hooks maybe didnt stay shit and opened and the bag flies off the boat.. (havent done that one yet, but i have come close)) etc. My general deal anymore is to tie in the kite downstairs while its still in the bag, dump out the bag, and be done with it. If we need to change kites, then i might do a bag launch and then deal with the unused kite on the DW. 
 
A2: I agree with hatch launches on every type of boat (Symetrical or Asymetrical). Douse it on the side your going to set it on next. It will go up the same way it went down. Depending on the size of the boat, you may want to have someone below to help pull in the kite. You should be taking down the kite early enough that you can have everyone hiking as soon as the boat turns upwind. 
 
Q: crossed masthead halyards on say prod boat
A: So the P halyard was simply crossed on top of the SB one at the MH? Depending on conditions, you might not have to do much/anything:
If you are planning to gybe anyway, attach the P halyard to the tip of the sprit and gybe the kite inside of it.
If you want to/need to peel while still on SB gybe, scoot out to tip of sprit and lead the P halyard underneath the kite - you should be able to do an outside hoist that way (very slowly and carefully).
In either case proceed with caution - if it works all should be good, but if not the mess could be considerable. 
 
Q: on unhooking
A:
any new bowman must resist the urge to unhook things. If it went down, it will go back up. FUBAR happens when you unhook things on a messy bow and sheets don't get run right. If a line get trapped, you will hear it from the back and for once in their lives they will be right. 
 
Q: It's a TP52 with a long fixed bowsprit. we were doing a shore passage race, rounded the top mark on port and hoisted the A2 with the port halyard. Later on we had gybed to port tack and the wind died and so we had to put the A1 up. (halyards now crossed)
A: If you are starboard halyard on starboard gybe then get your port halyard outside the kite and hoist outside, if on port halyard on starboard gybe then hoist inside.
 
If you need to do an outside hoist, do an outside hoist, if that means taking the new halyard all the way to the back of the bus to get it outside the kite then do that. If the halyard is on the wrong side of the kite, then you've screwed up and are now screwed, the brains trust will not love you for limiting their options!
 
If you are using a pole, then organising your halyards prior to a gybe may well be necessary to avoid screwing around throwing the halyard over the pole. You can do this by taking the spare halyard to the bow before every gybe - probably not worth going on a round the cans but can be useful in a long coastal or offshore race. 
 
Q: tying into halyards
Also, probably another dumb question but which situation do you think would warrant a backup halyard into the harness, peels vs going full mast to fix instruments or clear halyards and such.
 
Peels = splash
Full Mast = bigger splash and perhaps a splat. 
 
Going aloft use a halyard with a shackle and another halyard with a bowline. If there's only one halyard to get you where you need to be up there use a bowline, and tie it yourself.
 
Q: how to clear jib sheets on end to end pole
A: Shove the pole backwards on the boat so that the front is behind both jib sheets (preferably not into the helmsman's head, and maybe into a nice bag hanging off the boom but on the deck is fine), and everything will stay clear so long as you douse outboard of both jib sheets. If you are doing end-for-end jibes, the assumption is that you can toss the pole around pretty easily. Just make sure the topper and foreguy are both blown with enough slack to allow the pole to clear backward. Ignore the sheets and just shove the pole backwards and you should not have to disconnect anything, regardless of whether the pole shove-back occurs pre or post-douse.
 
Stripping the pole pre-douse has two advantages: 
 
1) It makes windward takedowns easy, especially into a forward hatch, thus setting the boat up for an easy hoist on the same side next time around. Just toss any jib sheet on the deck behind the open forward hatch and that automatically ensures the kite being on the correct (outboard) side of the jib sheets. 
 
2) Gate decisions can be a little more last-second.
 
In heavy air and/or if reaching instead of being deep downwind, it helps to have tweakers snugged on the spinnaker sheets before stripping the pole. It all requires a bit of extra attention by the spinnaker trimmer if you want to keep the kite drawing for those last few seconds into the mark, but the boathandling advantages of never disconnecting anything are well worth it. 
 
A2:When you douse the jib, roll it up forward into the pulpit. When you trip the pole, make sure the starboard jib sheet is flicked off, and the port jib sheet is put over the new outboard end of the pole.
 
A3: In short though: When dousing shove/roll the jib forward into the pullpit as has been suggested. 
When it's time to gybe: you pick up the lazy jib sheet (which is lying on deck to leeward) 
Trip the sheet off the pole then trip the pole off the mast (this is for light/medium air. Heavy air is slightly different. 
place the lazy jib sheet over the pole and attach pole to new working spinnaker sheet and help it forward toward the clue. 
As the pole is coming across so you can attach it to the mast clear the jib sheet off and attach to the mast. 
Yell "MADE" as loud as you can. 
Repeat for any further gybes. 
 
A3+:^^ I kinda get what you're getting at for the gybe, but let's look after the good race sails by scrunching them into the pulpit & your owner probably wonders why the sails look so fcked by 3/4 of the way through the season... nice one dumbass......
 
aside: Fraculator
PostDateIcon December 31st, 2011 | Author: Bob Roitblat
a line primarily used to fraculate–help rake a mast forward while sailing downwind. It is also used to prevent a jib that has been teed-up from catching the wind and rising too soon or from interfering with a spinnaker jibe. A fraculator consists of a line connected to the stemhead at one end and with a clip or quick-release shackle at the other. The clip or shackle is connected to the bail on a jib halyard’s shackle after the jib has been run through the pre-feeder and into the head foil. The mast can be raked forward by tensioning the jib halyard. Also referred to as a defraculator, fracalator, fractionator, frapilator, or magic string. Its abbreviated form is frac.
 
A4: Thanks for the tips Loopy. Boat is a Soverel 33. Boat just got a brand new #1, so bunching that one in the bow is less appealing, but the #2 is well past expiration date. #3 rarely gets used, but is probably small enough that it wouldn't need to be shoved forward.
Worth it to train the mast man to flake the jib on the way down, or just drop it and get off the bow?
 
A5: There's a balance between the two. Make sure you've rigged a Fuck-U-Later, so you can load the head back through the prefeeder and into the foil. The mast/pit peeps can then snug the jib halyard. Makes hoisting at the next mark faster/easier.
 
A6:as far as dealing with the jib, i either unclip the head and tack (less common) and slide them back and then forward, flick it around the front of the foreguy (only works for non overlappers) or take the forguy off the deck or pole, flick the jib through, and reconnect. this is how i did on a Farr30 and Corby33. For an overlapper i might consider sliding the jib back more often, keeping the jib halyard on the fraculater (what i did on a Tripp37 i sailed on for beercans a few summers ago). Either that or get rid of the pole before you put the jib up if you have the angle to do that. 
 
A7: I mainly sail on the front of 40/45's and dip pole gybe.
I split the topper and reconnect in front of jib. kite goes up, jib comes down, gets gagged and pulled aft of foreguy/kicker (depending on your local terminology!!)while leaving jib halyard clipped off at base of forestay.
Did do a bit of end for ending over the last season. coming into final approach to top mark, pole goes on the mast above lazy jib sheet.
coming into the bottom, float the kite, stow pole then douse.. happy days! 
 
IOW on the hoist Bow helps jump the kite, then goes Fwd to yank the jib down in a manner that does not get it in the water, immediately refeeds it for a rehoist, tosses a bungee over it to keep it from going overboard and gets back to the mast.
 
Then in prep for the takedown you, undo the bungee, yank the clew of the sail around to the side its going to need to get raised on, and get ready to drop the pole.
 
***Simplest way to get it "clean" is to have the jib's lazy sheet in your hand, delay toppy drop, trip the pole, go butt end up, tuck the outboard end under the sheet in your hand, Call for "Drop Toppy".. as you shove the tip fwd.
 
Alternative is just to bounce the fucker onto the deck, clip the inboard end of the pole onto the weather shroud, douse the kite into the hatch, turn face the veggie bin and yell "NOT clear"...
 
Now unclip toppy and down fucker from the pole and clip them to each other.
Grap the lazy jib sheet and pull it aft under the pole to the shrouds,
unclip from the shrouds as you pull the jib sheet over the pole. 
Reclip pole, 
Face aft and yell "CLEAR TO TACK".
 
Now take your time while leaning in from the rail to secure the toppy/Downfucker
Clear the halyard off the kite and run it back to the base of the mast and ask for "take up slack on Spin Halyard"
Keeping the three corners sticking out of the hatch in the config they came down in, unclip the sheets/guys and make sure they are on the correct side for the likely next launch - if they currently are on the wrong side pass the message along to the trimmers that the spin sheets are ready to be pulled to the other side AFTER the next tack. If the spin halyard needs to go as well, MAKE SURE that the shackles and the kite are connected OUTSIDE the jib sheets and the halyard has enough slack in it to let the jib fill after the tack but not so much that it hangs up behind the spreaders.
 
If the pole tip needs to move to the other side, move the fwd end NOW so that its not stuck under the jib on the next tack, and move the inboard end as part of the next tack.
 
A8: [asy] ”An alternative to this approach, and one we find works quite well, is to tie a tack retrieval line to the tack of the spinnaker. On our boat we use a 25 foot long piece of nylon webbing which we feed over the bow pulpit and lazy sheet, to windward of the headstay, and down the hatch. When its time to initiate the douse our pit person announces the 4 steps we always follow: 1) the Spinnaker trimmer blows the sheet; 2) the pit person releases the line holding the pole out while the person in the sewer pulls on the tack retrieval line; 3) the pit person blows the halyard and watches the bowman to see when it is time to ease the tackline to get the chute all the way down the hatch."
 
A8+: i use to use a retrieval line but but sort of phased it out of my options. you end up with the kite coming into the boat backwards. it can also be a real motherfucker if the kite shockfills in the middle of you trying to get the tack in. havent used a retrieval line on the tack in years (on a j109 w/phrf kites). it is a good option, but somewhere along the way i decided i really didnt like it... 
 
A8++:That's the fuckin' issue. Kite goes in the hole backward.
 
Driver has a tendency to go in hot and puts it down late with the main not covering. Bow team is hauling the lazy which is basically trimming the kite as the boat turns down. Blowing the tack w/ pole out works but it's dirty. Tried the tack retrieval line last year but ended up with backward kite and the squirrel is in the hole too long. Boat is a Farr 36OD.
 
A8+++: During a weather strip; when you haul the kite in by the tack retrieval line be sure that the lazy sheet is behind. Then, once the foot is in hand pass this to the sewer man UNDER the now-smoked leeward sheet and have him suck the kite down this way. As long as you don't disconnect anything in the hatch and run a tape or two everything should come out clean. 
 
Note: This is assuming inside gybes. 
 
Q: So where is the TRL [tack retrieval line] at home after the set but before the douse so not to foul gybes? Is it run back to the hole?
 
A: I generally tie the line off to the tack of the sail and feed it down the hatch that way when I'm hauling ass on it as we go for the douse it's feeding into the hatch for the sewer person and so that it's beneath the kite in the hole and easier to clean up.
 
If you're rigged for inside gybes then don't put it over the sheet with the tackline or else your first gybe will be messy. I generally rig it and toss it flaked down the hatch and forward so that it is totally away from the kite. 
 
A2: My $0.02 worth:
Don't use a retieval line. As you mentioned, the kite goes back in the hatch backwards.
 
When trying to pull a big kite like that to the weather side, you have to de-power it some how. If your driver likes to come in hot, this is a must. If your crew is pulling on a lazy with the halyard and tack line still on, it's not going to work out to well.
 
You could try a take down line from the midpoint of the foot or a belly button patch about 18 inches above the mid-point. Using this type of a takedown line has it's pros and cons. One big plus is that you're pulling the foot in first. Since you'll blow the sheet and the tackline at the same time, the kite will depower VERY quickly. The downside is that you now have this line attached to the kite that can get in the way or caught on something. You'll need some sort of pocket up by the tack to store it. As the kite is being pre-fed to the end of the sprit, you have to take it out and attach it to something. Large asym boats will lead the takedown line down to a fancy take system taht's driven off their grinding pedestal(s). 
 
A3: the takedown line is kind of a PITA as well since you have to put it back in the keepers along the foot. but, it is a more effective way to do things than the tack retrieval. 
 
A4: On the Soto40 last year we ran a takedown line similar to the one described by RATM, but due to Class rules, the takedown line could not be powered by a device, so no fancy 1:2 system or wheel inside or add any extra equipment not already supplied or onboard. We simply had a drop line on each kite long enough to exit out of the sheet hole in the side of the cockpit. We always did left hand takedowns, so depending on which side of the gate we went at the bottom, it was either a leeward or weather drop. The drop line led from the port side of the kite, down the fore hatch, past the port side of the mast, through a turning block (Supplied Harken High Load Snatchie) and entered the cockpit as mentioned through the sheet hole. 
 
As the drop was called the bowman hauled on the dropline, the kite trimmer once he'd blown the sheet, wailed on the drop line and in concert with the tackline and halyard going at the right time, the kite ended up almost fully in the boat, the pitman would jump down once most of the kite was aboard and do a quick pull on the remainder of the mess on deck from below and if needed run the tapes. The drop line could be disconnected for the second hoist as it was always a 4 leg ww/ race although if it didn't get disconnected, it was no hassle
 
A4+: Need to be careful with burping the halyard so that part of the foot doesn't go into the water. Blowing the sheet & tack and hauling in on a TRL keeps the kite up in the air while you get the foot in hand before blowing the halyard. 
 
A5: J 120, All douses are done with a TRL, and we are allways rigged for inside gybes. Depending on the breeze either 1 or 2 people on the TRL, and somebody in the sewer (we call squirrel). If the TRL is long enough pass it down below to the sewer. TRL is led over the top of lazy spin sheet during the douse.
 
1. Skipper calls douse
2. Blow the working spin sheet
3. Blow the tack line. Tack goes down the hatch first, and haul the entire foot around the head stay (windward douse).
4. Bow calls for halyard, and chute comes down on deck
 
During a leeward douse, it helps to have 2 guys on the TRL so that the forward most person can let go of TRL, and help the tack up under the jib foot, and over the life lines if the jib is sheeted to tight. Also the pit guy must realize not to smoke the halyard, or your shrimping. Pit guy needs to give the bow as much halyard as they can handle without letting the chute get in the water to much.
 
When the the chute is below have squirrel remove halyard and pass it up. Pull tack and TRL up forward in the bow, clew stays on port side in the bow. Stretch the head back to the galley and run the leach tape, once you hit the clew, run the foot tape. After that your ready to go again.
 
A5+: too long to have the squirrel below dealing with a mess. can't afford the weight and by the time it's sorted, we're probably back to the winward mark. 
 
Q: hand signals again
A: 1-4 on the windward hand = boatlengths. When we're inside one bl I twitch the index finger up & down as if I'm waving with it to signal that it's less than 1. If it's light/quiet enough and we're within 1 then I'll talk to the afterguard about distance in terms of 1/4 BL's. Swinging an open palm through 90 degrees like you're chopping the air signals that there is no overlap with a nearby boat. Holding up a closed fist is "hold" to not change heading either because you're overlapped with someone or there's a starboard tack boat on a converging course. Thumbs down is "over early". Holding a palm opened downward and patting down as if you're patting a dog is "slow down, you're early" and a "come on" motion means 'send it' towards the line.
 
On boats with non overlapping headsails, as long as the tactician has a competent head on his shoulders, you shouldn't have to be too aggressive with pointing out boats on a converging course or who have rights. On a boat with overlapping headsails or one without a tactician you should play it by ear and be looking around more to see what's coming at you that they may not see...
 
A2: bent pointer finger = 1/2 length 
thumb up/down fist = bow up/down
thumb w/countdown = half length + fingers (ie, two fingers and thumb out = 2.5 lengths. this is easier to see than 2fingers and a bent pointer. bent pointer finger on its own is fine though). 
 
i'll point my fingers down when im counting down the lengths to indicate we're a little early and to put the bow down, or lower my hand repeatedly to say slowdown while doing the b/l countdown. same with the send-it finger twirl, i keep the countdown going.
 
Also, I just remembered that I like to flash back a pinching motion to the helmsman, with eye contact if possible, to show we're only feet off. 
 
Q: two shackle handcuffs
A: Why two shackles on handcuffs?  Sew a short spectra webbing loop through the bail of a single (preferably Tylaska) shackle.  Cow Hitch (luggage tag hitch) the loop to the pole ring or guy bail, your decision which.  Proceed as usual.  When done remove from pole ring or guy bail.  Half the cost of two shackle handcuffs.
 
A2:I use a Tylaska, and a big (3/8) Vectran soft shackle taped to the bail. Hasn't failed me yet.
 
——
 
Set up:
On Symm kites you can keep the jib sheets over the pole and next to the mast, not ahead of the pole lift which uses lots more sheet that can get tangled up and puts them right in your way when you are jibing. Then simply unclip the pole lift fast after the takedown and you are "ready to tack"
 
Cleat the butt end of the pole well, otherwise it will fall, but only if you are standing under it.
 
On a jibe set or a late tack to the weather mark, you can hook up the halyard and pole lift ahead of time, just stand there and keep it out of the way until the jib is past then jump it fast, You will be ready before the back of the boat is.
 
If you wind up jumping a halyard during any hoist, make sure that the pit is keeping up with you. If you look down at your feet and see 20 feet of halyard piled there and about that time the kite fills, ouch!
 
Don't waste time trying to jump the last couple of feet, if you can't move it, just get down onto the winch handle and crank it up. [disagree, get it up before it fills]
 
Always unclip the straps on the spin turtle [disagree big air: Halyard because it's reversed Velcro has to be unVelcroed seconds prior to hoist, and prefeed the guy can be done by a trimmer with some grunt blowing the suitcase Velcro open at the last second.], and always clip the turtle to the boat.
 
The stinker play is after you round the upwind leg in coastal races, the wind is up and after a while on an outboard lead on the genoa the call is to go to the reaching kite to go faster downwind.  Everything is powered up, unlike a W/L race.  Then the best protocol is to have the bowman sitting at the suitcase after setting the pole, etc., controlling the guy prefeed, sneaking the  spinnaker head under the genoa with tension so the whole kite snakes up behind the genoa before the sheet trimer powers it up.  Then, down comes the genoa.  Hot crews can combine the hoist and genoa down process.
 
Sail transitions are different depending on apparent wind, sea state and wind angle.  I tire of conversing with supposed pit men who always close the halyard clutch, put four wraps on the winch and then can't keep up with me at the mast during a hoist in 4kts true.  Hey dude, open the clutch no wraps on the winch keep up with me!  Slam the clutch down when you feel overpowering resistance. Losers.
 
I like to wait until the last minute to blow the Velcro unless it is really light air.  Same goes if you are launching out of a hatch.  I've had arguments with a skipper telling me to get the hatch open BEFORE even setting the pole.  Again....fine in light air. In heavy air, I'll wait, thanks.  There is nothing good happening when the kite starts filling prematurely!  Had it happen to me once when the mast person thought I had forgotten to open the hatch, so he thought he would be helpful and just flick it open for me. Out went the kite!
 
 

 

 

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                                                ......wow.                    really?    :mellow:



#769 JBSF

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 02:04 PM

 

That's good stuff.  But you neglected the most important information on how to be a good bowman:  

 

How to bang the owner's daughter without getting caught.   :lol:

 

Do we really care if we get caught....i mean, a love puddle on the 0.6oz runner on show for the entire fleet at a mark rounding should be a thing to brag about.  Now if it's the owners trophy wife...maybe your safety relies on your ability to keep the smile off your face

 

 

Fair point!






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