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#1 razorback

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 09:24 PM

Been thinking about getting a smaller PHRF boat. Before everybody goes bananas, there's no OD on the body of water that I want to use it on. Been seeing these in the classifieds and they certainly seem cheap enough for the rated speed and I like the way they look. We are mostly light air and fairly smooth water. My guess is that they go OK in light but dig a hole and get smoked by the newer boats when it blows. Is that close? Who knows about these things? How do they compare to J/27, Soverel 27, etc.? Build quality?

#2 Mainsheeter

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:28 AM

Are you a razorback from Arkansas?

#3 razorback

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:35 AM

Woooo Pig Sooie!

#4 Mainsheeter

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:46 AM

Ok good, we squared that one away. So am I. Interestingly, I just posted an almost identical post as yours on the Impulse 21 I'm thinking of buying. Good luck. it doesn't seem that Impulses are very popular here on SA.

#5 razorback

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:55 AM

I saw that. I'm not an Impulse guy by any stretch, never seen one. But got to thinking that I could get a little fairly inexpensive boat and put new sails and bottom on it for less than the needed upgrades to the current ride would cost. Keep the big one for a weekend cabin and kid barge but not try to keep it competitive. I suspect both the 26 and 21 are decent candidates if they are not POS. No luck so far on figuring that out.

Shocked to find another Hog. That makes 3 or 4 of us, total. Got my season tickets in the mail today!

#6 Mainsheeter

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 02:58 AM

Well at least we keep bumping it up near the top. I think my post must be on page 30 by now.lol. Not from GMSC are you?

#7 d'ranger

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:11 AM

I believe you are correct about good in light air/flat water. there is one for sale here (Galveston Bay) in good shape. if you want I can get you in touch with the owner - very good guy who will give you the good, the bad and the ugly.

#8 razorback

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:11 AM

There ya go.

#9 sailor4662

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:46 AM

I have owned an Impulse 26 for 6 years. Also, an Impulse 21 for awhile. In my opinion the 26's are underrated boats. Rock solid build quality. Not a soft spot anywhere on the deck. Well engineered. Light air killer. Huge mainsail. I used to swap mainsails with my Evelyn 32 as they were the same size. Even though the jibs are small, they are sensitive to halyard tension and especially lead adjustments. Very efficient deck layout - easy to sail shorthanded. Inboard diesel makes it a nice package. One of the draw backs when they were originally introduced was the softness of the sailboat market in general and a base price of $25,000 base boat. About as much room below decks as a J-24, so wives did not take to it for cruising. For under 10K on the used market, I consider them a bargain for PHRF racing.

#10 Heatwave80

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 12:26 PM

Great boat that can sail to its' PHRF rating in light air and flat water. Does not like heavy air or chop too much. Never seen one with an inboard. There is one here on Galveston Bay with a trailer and recent bottom job that might be for sale for the right price. PM me if interested and I will put you in touch with the owner.

#11 musicman

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 12:37 PM

We owned one of these and raced it heavily for almost 10 years. Amazingly fast upwind in anything up to 8 knots. It has a big whole in it's performance in mid range conditions, this is mostly due to being a VERY short waterline boat for it's rating.Once you get in the high teens for windspeed the boat comes good again as it will surf, but keep the weight aft!!! I've had this boat fully burried to the mast on a few runs! In ECSA we had the most harsh rating in the country for the boat, initially they had us owing the J 27 time!!!! By the end of our time with the boat it rated 134 vs 129 for the 27, this was still a harsh number. Low 140's would be about right.
One thing to consider is removing the inboard, it was well worth the 6 sec hit. Try to find a New Orleans Marine built one, they where lighter. Very pretty boat as well.

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#12 jesposito

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:27 PM

Notice the Farr 40 rig in the pix above

#13 sailman

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 03:33 PM

Notice the Farr 40 rig in the pix above

NICE! :lol:

#14 Mike in CT

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 06:21 PM

Notice the Farr 40 rig in the pix above



are you implying that this boat may be slightly over rigged?

#15 razorback

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 07:45 PM


Notice the Farr 40 rig in the pix above



are you implying that this boat may be slightly over rigged?



Your boat is one of the reasons I am asking! You told me it was fast in the light and the pics certainly show enough rig. That main is huge. Just looking for 3rd party verification. If it's, uh, tweaked in such a way that it annoys Espo, that's a bonus!

#16 musicman

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:15 PM

Notice the Farr 40 rig in the pix above


No we never wound John up with that boat, he's having a little fun at my expense.......
The Impulse was the original "Hate Machine" never to be duplicated!

#17 Mylar

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:23 PM

Saw one on the Great Lakes w/ half a rig a couple of years ago - kinda hard to do for such a easy to sail trainer. Couple down in Duck Key run by a sailing school - didn't think they were sailing any more.

#18 jesposito

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 08:50 PM

The only thing that annoyed me about the boat is that my friend was fucked by his local phrf board because he raced against one of the board members.
Because as we know the JACKASSES that sit on the PHRF boards in western lis and eastern lis cant sail worth a SHIT. They need to set the playing feild for themselves.

#19 rudimentary

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:25 AM

I chatted with the designer; Bill Cook about the boat a few years back. At the time the idea was to present a “pocket sized” Admiral’s Cup looking boat and the I/B catered to the well healed who could afford what was a pricey boat in those days. It was a similar market that the Soverel 27 was aiming at, although unlike the Soverel that also made some MORC concessions in the design, the Impulse made no such limitations and was aimed more towards a possible OD class, something the Impulse 21 was more successful at doing.

The Impulse definitely has a good sized sailplan and is very light, although it is also short on waterline compared to the J/27 and Express 27 – both boats it had to compete with at that time. I don’t know where you are located, however if you log onto to YachtWorld you should do a search on the Hotfoot 27 – It has a similar rig to the Impulse, however has far more interior volume and is still fairly light offering comparable performance.

Good Luck.

#20 razorback

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:52 AM

The only thing that annoyed me about the boat is that my friend was fucked by his local phrf board because he raced against one of the board members.
Because as we know the JACKASSES that sit on the PHRF boards in western lis and eastern lis cant sail worth a SHIT. They need to set the playing feild for themselves.

You sir, have a way with words that rivals your reputation for hauling it in J/29s.
Rudimentary-Good info there. That look, plus the big ol main is what got my attention. Not too worried about interior volume, just need to be able to squeeze a porta pot in there for the wife and daughter. We used to have a J/24 and she says anything that big is fine. I want a big cockpit and good deck on something I can move with a 1/2 ton truck that goes good in the light that I can sail reasonably well with 4 and stay as close as possible to the front of our fleet, which is about PHRF 100 unless we have our big boat out at 72. It's a second boat, so Tripp 26 is probably a budget buster. I know Hobie guys, just checking out several options.

#21 musicman

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:40 AM

If you are serious about it contact MikeinCT. His boat was built by New Orleans Marine, it's cored in diniycell instead of balsa. There are a few other cool things about that boat: new dieform rigging, a trailer, new boom, 2 newish sails, no IB and a scoop added into transon to aid in mounting the outboard. This would be the one to buy.

#22 H20

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 11:48 AM

We used to race against Mike in a T10. In light air he would HORIZON us. In bigger air we would win by a little.
Oddly last night I got spanked in medium air by an Impulse. Big waves and all. Could have been my abysmal start or the 8 guys he had on the rail, or I was too drunk. Great time last night though as Mike will attest.
Impulse 26, sailed well, is a light air killer. Plain and simple. Cheater pole is a bonus.
tried to upload pics but couldnt.

#23 musicman

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 12:36 PM

We used to race against Mike in a T10. In light air he would HORIZON us. In bigger air we would win by a little.
Oddly last night I got spanked in medium air by an Impulse. Big waves and all. Could have been my abysmal start or the 8 guys he had on the rail, or I was too drunk. Great time last night though as Mike will attest.
Impulse 26, sailed well, is a light air killer. Plain and simple. Cheater pole is a bonus.
tried to upload pics but couldnt.


You should be killing the Impulse in breeze & waves, try less beer next time........ In the light stuff he'll own you.
For the record the pole isn't a "cheater pole" it's a penalty pole which it gets a rating "penalty" for.
Would like to see some of the photos you have.

#24 razorback

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:22 PM

If you are serious about it contact MikeinCT. His boat was built by New Orleans Marine, it's cored in diniycell instead of balsa. There are a few other cool things about that boat: new dieform rigging, a trailer, new boom, 2 newish sails, no IB and a scoop added into transon to aid in mounting the outboard. This would be the one to buy.



We've already exchanged emails and his boat is the main reason I was asking about these. Thanks for the tip, though.

#25 musicman

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 01:30 PM

If you are serious about it contact MikeinCT. His boat was built by New Orleans Marine, it's cored in diniycell instead of balsa. There are a few other cool things about that boat: new dieform rigging, a trailer, new boom, 2 newish sails, no IB and a scoop added into transon to aid in mounting the outboard. This would be the one to buy.



We've already exchanged emails and his boat is the main reason I was asking about these. Thanks for the tip, though.

No problem. If I can be of any help let me know we owned it for a long time before Mike & where very happy with it.

#26 H20

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:30 PM


We used to race against Mike in a T10. In light air he would HORIZON us. In bigger air we would win by a little.
Oddly last night I got spanked in medium air by an Impulse. Big waves and all. Could have been my abysmal start or the 8 guys he had on the rail, or I was too drunk. Great time last night though as Mike will attest.
Impulse 26, sailed well, is a light air killer. Plain and simple. Cheater pole is a bonus.
tried to upload pics but couldnt.


You should be killing the Impulse in breeze & waves, try less beer next time........ In the light stuff he'll own you.
For the record the pole isn't a "cheater pole" it's a penalty pole which it gets a rating "penalty" for.
Would like to see some of the photos you have.


Thanks for the enlightenment oh wise one. cheater pole/penalty pole sameshit. Not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary. I drink no beer so less wouldnt help. Maybe MORE rum though. And perhaps if our club actually corrected times I would have beaten the impulse. I was talking boat for boat and he owes me about 40 seconds a mile. He's never beaten me corrected that I know of, in my current boat anyway, but he doesnt get out much. Thursday nights were made for rum!
PM me with an email addy for photos.

#27 Mike in CT

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:37 PM



We used to race against Mike in a T10. In light air he would HORIZON us. In bigger air we would win by a little.
Oddly last night I got spanked in medium air by an Impulse. Big waves and all. Could have been my abysmal start or the 8 guys he had on the rail, or I was too drunk. Great time last night though as Mike will attest.
Impulse 26, sailed well, is a light air killer. Plain and simple. Cheater pole is a bonus.
tried to upload pics but couldnt.


You should be killing the Impulse in breeze & waves, try less beer next time........ In the light stuff he'll own you.
For the record the pole isn't a "cheater pole" it's a penalty pole which it gets a rating "penalty" for.
Would like to see some of the photos you have.


Thanks for the enlightenment oh wise one. cheater pole/penalty pole sameshit. Not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary. I drink no beer so less wouldnt help. Maybe MORE rum though. And perhaps if our club actually corrected times I would have beaten the impulse. I was talking boat for boat and he owes me about 40 seconds a mile. He's never beaten me corrected that I know of, in my current boat anyway, but he doesnt get out much. Thursday nights were made for rum!
PM me with an email addy for photos.


I don't think he knows that you have the Tarten 28 now.
Do you have pics from last night? I've been trying to get some of the Sentinel.
Its a shame that silver bullet never flies a chute. I never got to race my impulse against him phrf.

#28 H20

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 02:48 PM




We used to race against Mike in a T10. In light air he would HORIZON us. In bigger air we would win by a little.
Oddly last night I got spanked in medium air by an Impulse. Big waves and all. Could have been my abysmal start or the 8 guys he had on the rail, or I was too drunk. Great time last night though as Mike will attest.
Impulse 26, sailed well, is a light air killer. Plain and simple. Cheater pole is a bonus.
tried to upload pics but couldnt.


You should be killing the Impulse in breeze & waves, try less beer next time........ In the light stuff he'll own you.
For the record the pole isn't a "cheater pole" it's a penalty pole which it gets a rating "penalty" for.
Would like to see some of the photos you have.


Thanks for the enlightenment oh wise one. cheater pole/penalty pole sameshit. Not saying it's a bad thing, quite the contrary. I drink no beer so less wouldnt help. Maybe MORE rum though. And perhaps if our club actually corrected times I would have beaten the impulse. I was talking boat for boat and he owes me about 40 seconds a mile. He's never beaten me corrected that I know of, in my current boat anyway, but he doesnt get out much. Thursday nights were made for rum!
PM me with an email addy for photos.


I don't think he knows that you have the Tarten 28 now.
Do you have pics from last night? I've been trying to get some of the Sentinel.
Its a shame that silver bullet never flies a chute. I never got to race my impulse against him phrf.


No pics Todd didnt bring his camera. Boat looks good though no doubt. Wonder what happened to Butlers impulse(fayerweatherYC). I know he has a new boat now. Guess it sold off a while ago. I will try to get some sentinal shots. Todd may have some.

#29 razorback

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 06:16 PM

This thread once again shows how cool SA can be. I bought Mike's Impulse last weekend, largely based on info and contacts I got from SA. I've seen a bunch of boats that bear no resemblnce to the ads when you see them in person, but Mike's boat and gear were exactly as he represented them and this was before he bought us a couple of drinks at the bar. Made for a pleasant experience. Musicman has been really helpful with the info too. Now to combat the PHRF demons...

#30 DaveK

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 06:19 PM

WTF..... I tried to search for info on this boat but, nada.

You got a link with pics?

DaveK

#31 musicman

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:38 PM

Here are some photos of our Impulse when Mikeinct owned it. Loved this boat, we had to sell it due to the unfair nature of ECSA PHRF..... During one rating review we where told "It's not our fault you bought the wrong boat." by a hadicapper. At one point we had to give J 27's time, which was WAY off.
I was sad to see it go, but it sounds like it has a good home now.
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#32 DaveK

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:05 PM

That’s a great looking boat! Thanks, I couldn’t find shit about them! Except for the transom, it looks similar to a J27. Hope you work out any phrf issues.

DaveK

#33 Mike in CT

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:10 PM

This thread once again shows how cool SA can be. I bought Mike's Impulse last weekend, largely based on info and contacts I got from SA. I've seen a bunch of boats that bear no resemblnce to the ads when you see them in person, but Mike's boat and gear were exactly as he represented them and this was before he bought us a couple of drinks at the bar. Made for a pleasant experience. Musicman has been really helpful with the info too. Now to combat the PHRF demons...


sounds like the trip went smoothly.
I hope you won't have to deal with any phrf problems. the rest of the country seems to treat the boat more fairly.

#34 Riddle of Brasted

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:26 PM

Never herd from these boats, are they still being build?

#35 razorback

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 03:08 AM

Hey Mike,
Been meaning to drop you a note. Trip went fine. Trailers easier than my old J/24. Just had to tolerate Dad's critique of my driving every inch of the way. All my locals think it's a sweet looking boat. You got away before I got to thank you for the drinks and burgers. Nice club and town you've got. Looks like I'm ending up at PHRF 135, which I think will be fair in our conditions. If I figure out how to hang the BIG chute on it, I'll send pics. Thanks again for everything.

DaveK, you are close enough to race with us sometime. Find me a good regatta in your neighborhood and we'll come on down or you could detour on one of your trips up here.

Riddle-Nope. No longer made. In an odd twist, they seem to be a gateway drug of sorts as all the former owners buy E32s. Not sure that's a good sign, but we'll see.

#36 Jangles13

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 03:23 PM

Bump.


Any new info/input? PM'd razorback already. Anyone else out there been sailing on/around one? Looking for crew requirement info mostly. How much beer do you have to buy to sail this thing?

#37 razorback

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 05:04 PM

Bump.


Any new info/input? PM'd razorback already. Anyone else out there been sailing on/around one? Looking for crew requirement info mostly. How much beer do you have to buy to sail this thing?


PM back at you. The beer budget was a big reason for the move. This boat was a downshift from an old One-tonner. Lots more fun with lots less beer.

It's great for our conditions, light & smooth. Keep up with all the 30's (J, Kirby, S2, etc.) with 1/2 the people. I'd hate to try to save the time in breezy & bumpy.

#38 AST69

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Posted 25 March 2008 - 11:18 PM

There is an Impulse 26 here on Sarasota Bay.

When owned by the original owner they were tough to beat in any conditions.Boat switched hands and was parked on a sandbar and the keel fell out!

Boat has since been redone and the inboard has been removed.Boat is smoking fast in light air and flat water and the current crew is a bunch of hammerheads.

#39 razorback

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 01:34 AM

Boat is smoking fast in light air and flat water....


That's another way of putting it. We are really racing for line honors when it's light. Main competitors are J/92 (two old style and an "s") Any kind of a reach and they kill us of course, but upwind you can really get on their nerves for a fraction of the budget until they get powered up. Actually goes downhill in a breeze pretty well too. Won't break free as easily as modern sportboats, but will get into double digits with the right encouragement. Problem is getting back uphill through the chop. In fairness, we're ALWAYS light, so I haven't really tried it properly ballasted.

Mine is foam cored, some are balsa. I've got some nonstandard bulkhead reinforcement that I'd probably recommend, otherwise a good, solid, simple, fun to sail boat. Much racier than a J/24 and all the spinoffs for the same money.

#40 musicman

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:12 PM

That's another way of putting it. We are really racing for line honors when it's light. Main competitors are J/92 (two old style and an "s") Any kind of a reach and they kill us of course, but upwind you can really get on their nerves for a fraction of the budget until they get powered up. Actually goes downhill in a breeze pretty well too. Won't break free as easily as modern sportboats, but will get into double digits with the right encouragement. Problem is getting back uphill through the chop. In fairness, we're ALWAYS light, so I haven't really tried it properly ballasted.

Mine is foam cored, some are balsa. I've got some nonstandard bulkhead reinforcement that I'd probably recommend, otherwise a good, solid, simple, fun to sail boat. Much racier than a J/24 and all the spinoffs for the same money.


How's it going Razorback? Your comments above are very much on target.
When we owned your boat we saw a max top speed in the high 13's in an Essex Rum challenge one year, 25 knots true wind..
Shortly after that we burrid the bow to the mast! Given the fact that the early boats don't have a sliding hatch ALL of the water went below, it was pretty scary..... :o
Great little boat, I miss it.
Shame we had to sell it, it really came down to problems with our local PHRF organization, ECSA. We were forced to sail at the fastest rating in the nation by miles... Shortly after we sold it they corrected the rating to get it to the national average. :angry:

#41 Pooch692000

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 02:43 PM

come out and race espo. The whitbread? you'd see how bad we suck on eastern LI
nice to have met you finally on block this year. hope all is well


The only thing that annoyed me about the boat is that my friend was fucked by his local phrf board because he raced against one of the board members.
Because as we know the JACKASSES that sit on the PHRF boards in western lis and eastern lis cant sail worth a SHIT. They need to set the playing feild for themselves.



#42 Jangles13

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 04:51 PM

Ok, so the next question is who knows anything about UNDERDOG... the reason for my interest in the Impulse. She's currently in the Boston area and is for sale. I think I'm #2 in line for making an offer. Anyone seen her in person?

#43 Mike in CT

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:16 PM

Shortly after we sold it they corrected the rating to get it to the national average. :angry:
[/quote]


not that I recall. I sailed it at 128.

#44 Jangles13

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:45 PM

PHRF NE is putting it at 126...

#45 musicman

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 06:49 PM

Shortly after we sold it they corrected the rating to get it to the national average. :angry:
not that I recall. I sailed it at 128.

Hi Mike. I'm pretty sure it was moved when ECSA tried to get all of the boats to a National Avergae handicap, sadly this may have been after you sold it...... There is NO WAY that boat can sail to 128 against good competeition.

Looking at last years PHRF book it appears they moved it to 132 in 06.

#46 razorback

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 07:38 PM

Hi Mike. I'm pretty sure it was moved when ECSA tried to get all of the boats to a National Avergae handicap, sadly this may have been after you sold it...... There is NO WAY that boat can sail to 128 against good competeition.

Looking at last years PHRF book it appears they moved it to 132 in 06.


135 here Mike and the whining is deafening.

MM, Going great except that I'm out of the water putting on a bottom. Should be floating again next week. Coaching Tball proving to be more time consuming than originally anticipated.

12.4 tops so far on this end, main & jib, high 20's I'd guess, singlehanding. 11.2 500 meter average on the Velocitek. Inland lake, no swells or current. Not really hairy at all, very controllable. Just SCOOT BACK! But I was wishing I had pinned the lid on that day. That hole was looking big. Got away with it, though.

Jangles, there's an owners group on Yahoo, but it's really inactive. Some pics of Underdog on there though. The guys responding to this thread know as much about the boat as anybody you'll find.

#47 musicman

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 08:19 PM

PHRF NE is putting it at 126...


Don't see that in the PHRF book. That would be very unfair considering the national average is 136.....

#48 Mike in CT

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Posted 26 March 2008 - 08:46 PM

Hi Mike. I'm pretty sure it was moved when ECSA tried to get all of the boats to a National Avergae handicap, sadly this may have been after you sold it...... There is NO WAY that boat can sail to 128 against good competeition.

Looking at last years PHRF book it appears they moved it to 132 in 06.



thats right 132 and then we got -4 for the chute. we did pretty well with the boat except when meeting certain little red boats who's ratings shall not be mentioned.

Razor... Yeah I put in those hatch pins before we went to key west after musicman told me about his submarine experience with the boat. It really does keep a good amount of water out of the cabin.

#49 Jangles13

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 12:14 AM

Don't see that in the PHRF book. That would be very unfair considering the national average is 136.....



For reference, a J/24 is 168 and J/27 is 126

PHRF New England: Base Handicaps


and yes, I think horribly unfair given what I've read, but I still want the boat. Who really cares what the winner is on paper, it's about having fun.

#50 Jangles13

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:30 PM

As brought up to a local PHRF board member...

QUESTION:
"I am looking at possibly purchasing one, but in my research I've found that one reason they aren't being raced much in this area is because the current rating of 126 is particularly low. This is in no way a complaint or a whine, but purely an investigation. I've located all the OD ratings I could find (15 in all, ranging from 132 to 144), and compiled an average of 135. While I have yet to sail the boat, I find it hard to believe it's miraculously 9sec/m faster here in NE than anywhere else in the country. I have read and understand the appeal process laid out on the PHRF/NE site, and agree with the policy. My major concern is that I don't want to invest time and money into a project (boat) only to find it's been rated out of competitive status. I personally don't believe winning is everything, but it's certainly a nice feeling, and knowing it's not very likely would be a deterent from purchasing the boat. If you have any insight as to why there is such a descrepency in the rating I would really appreciate hearing it. Do you personally believe it would be reasonable to think the rating could be adjusted towards the national average?"

REPLY:
"The Impulse 26 is designed as a OD boat, and it used primarily in flat, one design, racing where handicaps are not an issue. It is not ordinarily a boat that people buy to do handicap racing. There are only 2 listed Impulse 26s with valid certificates in PHRF-NE. The reasons there are not more is really difficult to say, but because there are so few, PHRF-NE clearly does not have enough race data/experience to merit a change in the handicap at 126. Any successful appeal would have to be backed by abundant and consistent race data supporting the unfairness of the 126 against other commonly raced boats in PHRF-NE.
The 126 handicap may well appear harsh to you vis a vis the rest of the PHRF land, but keep in mind that racing conditions vary widely between the different regions of PHRF. One certainly cannot fairly equate the conditions of the Chesapeake Bay with the Gulf of Maine for example. So, it should be expected that base handicaps for a given boat will also vary from region to region."



So... that would be a closed door then?

#51 sailor4662

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:50 PM

That PHRF Rep is an absolute idiot ! I have owned 3 Impulse 26's (2 times the same boat) all with inboards and my rating was 138. We were tought to beat in light air but you give alot away to the bigger boats in the heavier wind or jib reaches. As to One Design of the boat - we had 6 Impulse 26s where we sail and no more than 3 were out at any given time. His claim that most race one design is total BS ! He needs to be out of PHRF Management !

#52 Squalamax

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:38 PM

As brought up to a local PHRF board member...

QUESTION:
"I am looking at possibly purchasing one, but in my research I've found that one reason they aren't being raced much in this area is because the current rating of 126 is particularly low. This is in no way a complaint or a whine, but purely an investigation. I've located all the OD ratings I could find (15 in all, ranging from 132 to 144), and compiled an average of 135. While I have yet to sail the boat, I find it hard to believe it's miraculously 9sec/m faster here in NE than anywhere else in the country. I have read and understand the appeal process laid out on the PHRF/NE site, and agree with the policy. My major concern is that I don't want to invest time and money into a project (boat) only to find it's been rated out of competitive status. I personally don't believe winning is everything, but it's certainly a nice feeling, and knowing it's not very likely would be a deterent from purchasing the boat. If you have any insight as to why there is such a descrepency in the rating I would really appreciate hearing it. Do you personally believe it would be reasonable to think the rating could be adjusted towards the national average?"

REPLY:
"The Impulse 26 is designed as a OD boat, and it used primarily in flat, one design, racing where handicaps are not an issue. It is not ordinarily a boat that people buy to do handicap racing. There are only 2 listed Impulse 26s with valid certificates in PHRF-NE. The reasons there are not more is really difficult to say, but because there are so few, PHRF-NE clearly does not have enough race data/experience to merit a change in the handicap at 126. Any successful appeal would have to be backed by abundant and consistent race data supporting the unfairness of the 126 against other commonly raced boats in PHRF-NE.
The 126 handicap may well appear harsh to you vis a vis the rest of the PHRF land, but keep in mind that racing conditions vary widely between the different regions of PHRF. One certainly cannot fairly equate the conditions of the Chesapeake Bay with the Gulf of Maine for example. So, it should be expected that base handicaps for a given boat will also vary from region to region."

So... that would be a closed door then?


The great JC has spoken :lol:

#53 SailingToad

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 05:38 PM

I have no idea?

#54 WillieCrear

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:11 PM

The great JC has spoken :lol:

Help me out here...who is 'JC'? Is that John Collins of Marblehead?

#55 Squalamax

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:19 PM

Help me out here...who is 'JC'? Is that John Collins of Marblehead?


Yes.

#56 Jangles13

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 11:03 PM

Ha, unfortunately that isn't who replied. It was the GMORA handicapper. Although good to know his sentiments aren't without support.

I'm pissed off and I don't even own the boat. PHRF sucks. I am compiling info to send off an appeal-like packet just to make a statement.

#57 S291sailor

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 11:28 PM

For what it's worth, there was an Impulse 26 here on Lake Michigan that suffered through an amazing heap of rating agony for many years. It had blue topsides and a white deck and was called "Jazz" and later "Kaizan". Don't know where it is now (I think east side of Michigan).

Problem was, the original owner was an engineer/design geek and had gone waaaay custom with it (dump a truck load of steroids onto a MORC rocket) by basically disassembling the hull and deck, stiffening the hull big time and then tweaking the sail plan to be even more overpowered (picture adding a jumper extension on the standard rig). The boom was so low in the reconfig that you almost had to crawl through the cockpit during a tack - I still have bumps on my head where it hit me. Had both runners and check stays. I recall several times having to scramble over the side and stand on the keel to recover from a downwind wipeout. This one only had an outboard which rarely came out of the bilge. It was wicked fast up to 8 true and then very scary fast above 20 true.

I crewed on the boat for many years, even did a couple Lake Michigan crossings on it (one double handed). Looking back, I can't understand why we would enter a waterline race with only 19ft of active waterline!!! It was indeed a light air and flat water rocket and its performance in those conditions often defied description or explanation. One summer we took all firsts and one second around the bouys at our local club. The T10s and S29.1s were (in retrospect) understandably livid.

As for PHRF, the regional folks really struggled with it, I think it was as low as 97 at one point but finally settled at 120 after years of bitter fighting. I can only think of about a half dozen boats on Lake Michigan that have received the scrutiny this one did for its rating.

I know this probably doesn't help (aside from offering some consolation) sorry about that. I know from personal experience, that the east coast has had some difficulty determining a reasonable rating for the S29.1 as well.

Bottom line? I you're looking for reference ratings - DO NOT include data from the boat I describe above. It very clearly ain't stock.

#58 bowchow

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 01:31 AM

What the average price for a impluse?

#59 Jangles13

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 11:22 AM

Currently seems to be 5-10k, depending on trailer/sails/motor etc, etc. I know of only 3 for sale.

#60 bowchow

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 08:11 PM

you got links for those 3?
tia!

#61 Jangles13

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 12:44 PM

you got links for those 3?
tia!


PM'd you.

#62 razorback

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 05:05 PM

PM'd you.



Hey Jangles, fire those over to Gree too. He's got a buddy looking for one. Unless of course one of you all is the friend in question, then never mind.

Sometimes this play name thing gets confusing.

#63 Boudreaux

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 08:54 PM

I've seen 2 Impulse 26's out of the water and both had problems where the keel met the hull. Its a very small footprint there. I'm surprised none of you guys noticed the same. I believe both were New Orleans Marine built boats.

#64 Jangles13

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 02:19 AM

The New Orleans boats were the first handful of boats built... maybe first 6 hulls. Maybe they had some growing pains while building? The rest of the 30 MKI hulls were built by Johnson Boat Works. Then the moulds made it up to New England Composites(?), in Maine(?), and built an additional 7 hulls. I haven't heard much about any keel problems on any hulls though. The MKI were foam cored, the MKII's were balsa and had the extra 6" added height to the cabin.

#65 razorback

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 02:17 AM

I've seen 2 Impulse 26's out of the water and both had problems where the keel met the hull. Its a very small footprint there. I'm surprised none of you guys noticed the same. I believe both were New Orleans Marine built boats.



I've got a Mk1 Impulse. It had a crack in the area you describe, so I decided to get to the bottom of it. Got after it with the grinder to discover that it's just bolted on w/5200 (I suspect) squeezed in there, no cloth or anything else other than a little fairing compund of some sort at the joint which was no longer adhered to the lead. With that removed, the joint looked great. Bolts tight and 5200 still thin & elastic. It initially looked much worse than it was. I refaired with West's new GFlex on the logic that a little bit of give will prevent the crack. Can't say how it'll work because I'm just finishing up. Interprotect goes on tomorrow. It is a small footprint as you say and I expect that eliminating flex here is just about impossible. However, my boat has been raced very hard for its long life and is still surprisingly stiff overall.

How's the hunt for Underdog coming?

#66 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 03:15 AM

How's the hunt for Underdog coming?



The hunt is off. I am making transport arrangements for Fast Forward out of Tennessee. I'm not thrilled about the 2400mi drive... actually I'm really not interested in doing it, but seems to be the only economical way. Meanwhile, I listed my Santana 525 for sale today, here's hoping. I need the trailer!

#67 razorback

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 03:41 AM

The hunt is off. I am making transport arrangements for Fast Forward out of Tennessee. I'm not thrilled about the 2400mi drive... actually I'm really not interested in doing it, but seems to be the only economical way. Meanwhile, I listed my Santana 525 for sale today, here's hoping. I need the trailer!


Dammit! You are going the wrong way. I was hoping to coax FF into a race since we are a bordering state. Anyway, I'd rather it be sailed far away than idle nearby.

It tows easier than your 525, might as well just enjoy the scenery and make a mini-vacation of it. Just don't let you dad drive anywhere near NYC. Almost got me killed. Congrats and stay in touch.

Two boats sold in one thread. Who's next? Heatwave80 or DRanger, is that Houston Impulse still available?

#68 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 04:43 AM

I haven't sent the money yet so don't jinx me. Yes, the Texan is still available - near Ft. Worth to be precise. It looks to be a nice canvas for someone, just a bit more work than I need right now, although you'd have a brand new boat in the end w/inboard. The additional 1000 miles away and up front costs ultimately got to be too much for me to rationalize. I'm struggling with the thought of going to TN for a boat, I mean... there are boats in Maine afterall. Anyway, I forwarded the info on her to Gree, whom I gather is forwarding it to someone else. The Boston boat may still be available too, I've got some added info on that boat if anyone else would like to here it.

Razor, you mentioned something somewhere about having a mast hoist system figured out. I'm all ears. Any other distance towing tips you've got that are specific to the Impulse. I assume the mast rides up top alright even with the spreaders attached. I suppose it will tow "easier" but only because it's of legal width, the Santana is a bit porky.

More boats sold... hmm... 525 anyone? I can even bring it down anywhere between here and there!! I know, I know, buy an ad.

#69 razorback

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 05:30 AM

Nothing boat specific involved. Nothing wierd about it. Make sure your trailer is good and check those bearings. Mast can ride up top just fine. It's long for the boat, so mind your overhangs. Mine just had pins holding the spreaders on and quick tips, so those come off very easily. We towed from Conn. to Ark. with a half ton van no problem at all. Lighter and narrower than your 525.

I think that Ft. Worth boat is a different one than what I was talking about. It was in Clear Lake (suburb of Houston). Not sure if it was ever officially for sale, but i know the owner was getting into J/80s and was open to offers.

I'll be using my gin pole/trailer extensions/etc. next week or so and will send you pics of how it all works. Find an old mast section about 23 feet long and you are all set. The rest of it is just shit you've already got. It's just like the J/24 guys use. We don't have hoists, lifts, nothing, so we have to be self-contained. Even if we did, they'd be under water since the lake is up about 25 feet at the moment. It varies a bit.

#70 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 05:57 AM

It varies a bit. Sorta like our 12ft tides. I don't have ready-access to a lift nor a hoist or anything like that, and if I move my operation towards one I have to open my wallet up much wider than I'd like. I have ideas of building a hoist-arm-type-thing off our yachtclub pier to pluck masts, but that won't be very handy in Tenn. Philip described using a 28' extension ladder to set the mast, down on the sole, through the companionway, tied off, with the mainsheet tackle looped around the spreaders.... I can see it in my head, but I don't believe it.

I'll be towing with the company truck, an '06 F250 that won't even notice it's back there. The trailer is a rebuilt RoadKing or something that must have been built for something 28-30ft and is rated to 9000lbs. I think it'll hold... I bought it as a decked over utility trailer, the guy didn't exactly know what he had. Anyway I'm fully expecting the popetts to line up well enough. The hull doesn't have any particularly fragile points does it? It's 5-pt, being pretty much what you would expect, other than the forward two pads are aimed in under the hull for more support forward of the keel rather than "hugging" the sides.

#71 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 11:43 AM

IMPULSE 26



Hull Type: Fin Keel Rig Type: Fractional Sloop
LOA: 26 LWL: 21.58 Beam: 8.42
Draft (max.) 4.58 Draft (min.) SA: 327
Displacement: 2750 Ballast: 1305
Designer: William Cook
Builder: Impulse Marine
Hull: FG Bal. type:
First Built: 1984 Last Built: Number Built:

RIG DIMENSIONS:

I: 29.42 J: 8.5 P: 32.67
E: 12.17 PY: EY:
SPL: ISP:
SA(Fore.): 125.04 SA(Main): 198.80 Total SA: 323.83
SA/Disp: 26.46 Est. Forestay Len.: 30.62


NOTES:

Yanmar diesel was available as an option.

#72 Vernon Green

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 02:37 PM

I sent my buddy who was looking for an IMpulse 26 all the info for the one in Tx.

#73 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 04:05 PM

Razorback - what size are your primaries? They obviously were added. I think I would want them down there too. Cabintop is overrated.

#74 Captain Bastard

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 04:16 PM

Is this one sold?

http://www.sail1desi...l?m8:item=11898

#75 Jangles13

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 04:41 PM

Is this one sold?

http://www.sail1desi...l?m8:item=11898


Not exactly, it's in the middle of a survey at the moment. It is the boat that original rekindled my search for an Impulse. There are 3 known interested buyers at the moment, I being one, another who is having the survey done, and a third unknown party. The price is firm as far as I know and it isn't in quite as "excellent" shape as the listing states. Though not a bad boat, and still a good price for performance, there are some ups and downs about Underdog (the one in the link), anyone who wants to know what I've found can PM me.

#76 HWP

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 07:54 PM

When the I26 was new, Steve Colgate used them one year that I particiapted in his "Remedial Racing" classes at South Seas Plantation, FL. There was an incident the week before I was there when a boat full of students (+ 1 instructor) lost a keel. That boat had been run aground a few times before (like many boats at SSP).
The week I was there it was breezy and some of the fittings were popping off the deck under load.

Oh, yes ... I was the guy that put a 12" shark bite into the lee rail of starboard tack boat just forward of the primary winches--had a kid on the main who wouldn't even try to release it, despite vigorous "encourangement." The boat is "reluctant" to bear off when hard on the wind in a breeze with out a big mainsail dump ... but not as reluctant as an inland scow with those legal pad-sized rudders.
I was pretty impressed that the Colgate crew just jig-sawed the defect out and did an in-place repair. The boat was racing the next day. The instructors asked the students at the end of the class if anyone would like to buy one of their boats ... the silence was deafening!
I assume those were the NO boats. I've owned a few of JBW's boats and they are plenty strong, stronger than Melges' in some respects, although some of the JBW fittings always had an endearing "agricultural" quality about it. We held an MC regatta in Des Moines, IA, in (I think) the mid-80's. It was pretty breezy so some guys decided to go out an show what there new Melgi could do ... two of the boats shoved the mast step completely through the deck. Ouch! Melges did fix the boats at not charge, of course.

The New Orleans boats were the first handful of boats built... maybe first 6 hulls. Maybe they had some growing pains while building? The rest of the 30 MKI hulls were built by Johnson Boat Works. Then the moulds made it up to New England Composites(?), in Maine(?), and built an additional 7 hulls. I haven't heard much about any keel problems on any hulls though. The MKI were foam cored, the MKII's were balsa and had the extra 6" added height to the cabin.



#77 razorback

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:40 AM

The boat is "reluctant" to bear off when hard on the wind in a breeze with out a big mainsail dump


Yes, I should have said something about that before. All Impulse drivers should have the mainsheet in their hand in a breeze if they have any intention of falling off for any reason whatsoever. It's not that there's much weather helm (in our case at least). Just a great big main for a little bitty boat. The rig drives the boat rather than the other way around. It's also an excellent idea to stay under it driving downwind in a breeze. Your fundamentals need to be a little better than your average 4ksb leadmine, but that's part of the fun. On the bright side, when knocked down it sort of just flops over on its side and goes sideways. Not fast, but not scary and a lot less uncomfortable than being tea-bagged when your vigorous hiking is rewarded with an auto-tack, dunking you in the briny deep, which I imagine is a familiar feeling to the S525 jockeys monitoring this thread.

#78 boomer

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 03:52 AM

I don't recall any boats with big mains,large or small boats,that bear off well without dumping the main or easing it drastically when hard on the wind in a fresh breeze....but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... :blink:

#79 razorback

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:24 AM

I don't recall any boats with big mains,large or small boats,that bear off well without dumping the main or easing it drastically when hard on the wind in a fresh breeze....but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... :blink:


Yep. My post didn't come across right. It's not unusual. Some basic sailing mistakes seem amplified, pinching, for instance, will kill you dead. Poor weight placement will too. And your trim has to be coordinated with your helm. In that regard, it's kind of neat in that you get some of the responsiveness of more modern boats at a 4ksb price.

Edit: Almost forgot. Don't know what size my winches are, but I'll check. They are old 2 speed ST Maxwells and they are plenty big. You want them down on the seat with you if you EVER singlehand because it's a long cockpit and the trav splits it, making the cabin a long ways away.

#80 boomer

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 04:42 AM

Razorback,your posts are usually worth reading and at times entertaining....enough to usually catch my eye and much better then much of the banter that goes on in many other posts....

#81 Vernon Green

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:58 PM

I will second what he said, Razorback you posts are extremely helpful.

#82 Jangles13

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:26 PM

All this talk about outboards over in Gear Anarchy... any trouble reaching/operating it back there? It's a balancing act on the 525, but is managable, the transom looks even longer on the Imp26

#83 Frank Rizzo

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:45 PM

Razor's got his transom cut out.

Ahh, here's a pic! (motor mount is the small black square to the left of the runners)
Attached File  DSC_0206.jpg   84.22K   241 downloads
Hope your don't mind Razor. :P

#84 musicman

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:53 PM

Razor's got his transom cut out.

Ahh, here's a pic! (motor mount is the small black square to the left of the runners)
Attached File  DSC_0206.jpg   84.22K   241 downloads
Hope your don't mind Razor. :P


That's my father's handy work! When we took the IB out (which was a must....) there was no way to put the OB on the stern.
That's a molded drop in piece made in our basement. Don't think we kept the mold though, kind of a shame could be very helpful to other owners. At one point we discussed selling the drop ins, but there was very little interest in I 26's back then...

#85 Jangles13

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 11:13 PM

Yes I'm very familiar with that cut out, there was some discussion about it on the Yahoo group. Razorback took it out and had pictures of it in case anyone wanted to duplicate it. I take it then that reaching the outboard wasn't a huge issue. Did you have any concerns with hull integrity cutting that big chunk out? I know I'd be nervous. There doesn't seem as though there was any reinforcement done, and it was bolted in rather than glassed permanently - was that for ease of access to the backstay cascade under the cockpit?

#86 musicman

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:01 AM

Yes I'm very familiar with that cut out, there was some discussion about it on the Yahoo group. Razorback took it out and had pictures of it in case anyone wanted to duplicate it. I take it then that reaching the outboard wasn't a huge issue. Did you have any concerns with hull integrity cutting that big chunk out? I know I'd be nervous. There doesn't seem as though there was any reinforcement done, and it was bolted in rather than glassed permanently - was that for ease of access to the backstay cascade under the cockpit?


Cutting the transom didn't cause any structural issues. It was the only way to get to the OB.... it looked cooler before we put it in but wasn't gonna work. From memory we put it in that way because it was easier, my dad may chime in later.
You can get to the backstay purchase under the cockpit, but it's NOT easy ;)

#87 razorback

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 01:32 AM

You can get to the backstay purchase under the cockpit, but it's NOT easy ;)



Roger that! The step resulting from the Musicdad scoop is really nice, but the space under it is tight. Easy to step back there and grab the Tohatsu. I reinforced under it a little to reduce flex, stuck some skateboard tape on it for grip, even made a new pad for the motor mount out of a dense rubber I got from McMaster. Very little vibration. Razorback III catches fish off of it.

Edit: That's him headed to the rail in the pic. Grandpa Razorback pulling on the runner. Me driving. Thanks Boomer and Gree. Remember that my comments are worth every penny you are paying for them. ;)

#88 musicman

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 01:43 AM

Roger that! The step resulting from the Musicdad scoop is really nice, but the space under it is tight. Easy to step back there and grab the Tohatsu. I reinforced under it a little to reduce flex, stuck some skateboard tape on it for grip, even made a new pad for the motor mount out of a dense rubber I got from McMaster. Very little vibration. Razorback III catches fish off of it.

Edit: That's him headed to the rail in the pic. Grandpa Razorback pulling on the runner. Me driving. Thanks Boomer and Gree. Remember that my comments are worth every penny you are paying for them. ;)


"Musicdad" that's cool!

#89 Heatwave80

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 01:57 PM

The Houston Impulse 26 is now offically for sale - S.A. ad to post shortly. Interested parties should PM me.

#90 USA4182

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 02:29 PM

Did you honestly think that a PHRF Committee was going to say anything different from the answer above.

the standard answer is always...

Not enough data.....
the local conditions......
Please file an appropriate appeal.....

Standard BS....

#91 Bull Gator

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 02:45 PM

Hijack!

What's the impulse 21 like?

#92 razorback

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 02:54 PM

Did you honestly think that a PHRF Committee was going to say anything different from the answer above.

the standard answer is always...

Not enough data.....
the local conditions......
Please file an appropriate appeal.....

Standard BS....


My boat is the one in the pics above, also Musicman and MikeinCT former boat. My PHRF cert from the Gulf Coast came back at 138. That takes into account that I'm an outboard boat, penalty pole, everything. I sail at 135 at home because that's the number that we guessed at when I first got here and I just never changed it. I'm the commodore, so I prefer sailing at a slight hit vs. my cert in order to diffuse rating complaints.

I'll do my best to answer any questions if it'll help Heatwave80's buddy's boat find a new home.

#93 Heatwave80

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 08:21 PM

OK, my buddy finally has his Impulse 26 posted for sale on S.A. Great opportunity for the right buyer. Boat is in Houston.

#94 Jangles13

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 03:17 AM

And for those keeping score... I did end up buying the IMP26 ... actually bought 2. The thread about that is somewhere! Is it wrong that I want to build a fleet?

If perspective buyers want to ask questions about Impulse, I'll try to help answer questions. There are significant differences between the 3 builds, not one necessarily better than the others though.

#95 RumBulls

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 06:33 PM

The only thing that annoyed me about the boat is that my friend was fucked by his local phrf board because he raced against one of the board members.
Because as we know the JACKASSES that sit on the PHRF boards in western lis and eastern lis cant sail worth a SHIT. They need to set the playing feild for themselves.

You sir, have a way with words that rivals your reputation for hauling it in J/29s.
Rudimentary-Good info there. That look, plus the big ol main is what got my attention. Not too worried about interior volume, just need to be able to squeeze a porta pot in there for the wife and daughter. We used to have a J/24 and she says anything that big is fine. I want a big cockpit and good deck on something I can move with a 1/2 ton truck that goes good in the light that I can sail reasonably well with 4 and stay as close as possible to the front of our fleet, which is about PHRF 100 unless we have our big boat out at 72. It's a second boat, so Tripp 26 is probably a budget buster. I know Hobie guys, just checking out several options.


FYI, we trailer launch our Olson 30 without any issue.

#96 RumBulls

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:02 PM

Seems there is an impulse 26 for sale in the Dallas area.... and has been for some time. Has anyone check this boat out? or know of someone who has?

Thanks.

#97 A boat is a boat is a boat...

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 01:19 AM

Where in Dallas? If it's convenient, I'll check it out for you.

#98 d'ranger

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 03:29 AM

There is one for sail here and he bought an ad even.
I saw the owner tonight, great guy and as straight up and honest as they come. It is just a poor choice for Galveston Bay which is a very large 8-10' dishpan with lots of short steep chop. This boat needs flat water to excel.

Boat is in good shape and in the right venue would do very well. It has had very little use for several years but has been maintained.

#99 Jangles13

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 02:16 AM

I wrote this up for the Yahoo group, but I'm going to add it here for anyone looking into info on the I26.

Hello all, I'm going to try and cover all that has been brought up. It's a long winded response, you may want a cup of coffee.

Philip got the question of how many were produced down pretty well from the additional research I've done. I haven't come up with a firm number, but it was somewhere near 40.

I own the NEB hull #5, one of the last built, a MKII. She is an outboard model sans v-berth. I also bought hull 25 from Philip. It was also an outboard, but with v-berth. Unfortunately hull 25 was severely damaged during the delivery over two years ago, and has been dismantled. After much procrastinating and trying to convince myself she could be saved, I recycled the keel, and stripped the hull. Today actually was the final day, as the hull was land filled. A sad day indeed.

Having had both a MKI and MKII within 20ft of each other has given me the opportunity to become very familiar with the differences. The biggest have already been noted. 6" taller cabin, full balsa construction. MKIs had balsa in the cabin top though - which I didn't know until removing hardware and finding wet core. Let it be known that it is balsa under the primaries on MKIs, at least those built near hull 25. I would strongly recommend investigating your boat, filling with epoxy, re-drilling, and using a full backer plate would be advisable.

The cockpit transition to the pit is different, the MKIIs are smooth vs. having the quarter round inset. The nonskid on the MKI was raised diamond pattern, MKII is painted (though she had a full strip down in 1998 so I don't know what was there before).

The mast is actually 6" taller as well, evidenced by the sleeve at the butt, and the lengths of standing rigging. The mast step is a little different as well, from a layup schedule standpoint. The gooseneck isn't markedly different on the two rigs I have. The masts and booms are different, but simply because they were built by different spar companies.

The two hulls had different rigid vangs, mainsheets, backstay arrangements, jib cars, spin blocks, spin pole, and other things but those are all items that owners tend to change over the years, so I won't classify it as different from manufacturing.

Hardware layout is considerably different. The turning blocks are indeed winch locations (the secondaries are located where the primaries are on MKIs), and the row of cam cleats ahead of the companionway has been changed to sets of organizers leading to rope clutches on either side. Jib tracks differences: the MKI has short sets both on top of the cabin, and a set aft of the aforementioned turning blocks. #25 had an additional long track set inboard of the shrouds running aft into the cockpit. MKIIs simply have short sections recessed into the deck: one set just outboard and ahead of the primary winches, and another just inside the shrouds.

The slider mechanism did not move the mast, the re-routing of the control lines allows the hatch cover to move all the way forward. MKI had a fiberglass molded companionway step, where my MKII does not. The floor of the MKII is built up slightly higher, and the width between the settees is slightly greater. The transom step on MKIIs are larger, allowing one to actually stand on the stern.

Hull construction varies a bit too, internally. The MKII has beefier and more stiffening stringers throughout - perhaps aiding in it's slightly heavier build. Having not sailed an MKI I can't say which is stiffer under sail, but after dealing with both hulls I can say that the MKII is more resistant to external pressure. This could also be because balsa is more rigid on its own vs. foam.

The comment about the hulls being stern heavy is a mystery. When lifting the MKI from it's single point lift, it had a stern bias of roughly 250lbs, or about 10%. That is to say she pointed her bow to the sky. However, this could be a function of how the bracket was oriented. The MKII on the other hand, is quite the opposite, and sits very much bow down in the water, stern up about 6" (rudder being just below the surface) and sits level with crew aboard (stern about 3" up). This is about 800lbs of added ballast aboard, or an additional 30%. I haven't used a single point on the MKII, so I'll have to look into this a little more.

The MKI keel weighed in at exactly 1200lbs, for the record. The hull, stripped to essentially just the glass and no rudder, was 1080lbs.

The MKI also had a pad eye on the bow with a ss strike plate, presumably for trailer loading. My MKII does not (wish it did!). Neither hull had a recess for a furler. The pulpit and pushpit on the MKI had receivers, and thus were easily removed; the MKII has single piece design.

I think that's it... I probably missed a couple things. Ultimately I would say that the MKII was indeed a slight improvement, but there are much more important things to consider when purchasing a used boat.

My PHRF is 126, the same as a J80. I have never corrected to 1st place. I would guess the boat sails to the more standard 135 pretty well. I typically race against an Ultimate 20 (144) and we stay pretty close, though he's a better sailor. In my previous boat, a Santana 525 (189), in less prepared condition, I was able to correct to 1st on a number of occasions. My club is full of Rangers though, and they're nearly impossible to correct against. It's all fun though!

Love these boats, one of the best balancing high performance monohulls I've ever sailed. I routinely will set closehauled and sit on the rail, leaving the tiller untended for 20-30min. They are insanely quick in under 10kts with flat water, and get really fun at 25kts with some waves! Believe me it was a hard decision to let Fast Forward go. Hopefully the rest of them can stick around for a long time to come.

#100 Snaggletooth

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 02:41 AM

The only thing that annoyed me about the boat is that my friend was fucked by his local phrf board because he raced against one of the board members.
Because as we know the JACKASSES that sit on the PHRF boards in western lis and eastern lis cant sail worth a SHIT. They need to set the playing feild for themselves.


sam eolde expo :)




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