Jump to content


LBYC's 70's Regatta - Owner of Ragtime ejected from Long Beach


  • Please log in to reply
271 replies to this topic

#1 Ragtime

Ragtime

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 49 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 12:47 AM

Ragtime was invited (?) to race the 70's Sled event, and I, owner of Ragtime, helped get other boats involved. They now have 7 entries, plus us. They denied us entry yesterday by phone, saying we are 65' long, not a 70' sled, and we were not actually "invited".

This morning, I went to attend the Skipper's Meeting. The PRO, Bobby Frazier, Rear Commodore of LBYC, saw me and asked if we were racing. I told him we were there to attend the Skipper's Meeting. His response was "look, we told you yesterday, you're not racing. Are you a member of this yacht club?" I said no. He then said loudly " Leave. Leave now." I said I thought we should see what happened at the skipper's meeting. He fetched the club manager and asked that I be ejected from the club premises. Literally. The Club Manager asked that I move to the front of the club, and after discussion, called their Commodore and asked me to let him air out the situation. The manager complemented me for being as level headed as I was, and when I was explaining what had happened said with surprise "The Ragtime? The one with the model in the hallway?" and agreed that things did not reflect well on LBYC at that moment.

The Commodore of LBYC, Conrad Banks, called me a few minutes after I was removed to deliver the news that Ragtime was in fact disinvited. He said directly that Mike Campbell and Peligroso were sponsoring the event, and what they wanted was going to happen. When I questioned the wisdom of this, he said "look, I'm just the messenger. I've got other things to attend to this morning. They don't want you to race."

Humourously, he invited me and my crew to come by for the evening cocktail party after the race...I told him that sounded pretty distasteful, given the situation, and he allowed that he understood my outlook.

It is distressing to see one boat dictating who and what will race, under the guise of yacht club regatta sponsorship. Personally, I think LBYC's status should be reviewed by US Sailing. Our exclusion is particularly annoying because we rushed out of the yard this week in order to get there. I had spoken with their race coordinator, Alex, last week to tell him we were coming, and see who else was attending, and Alex gave me the details about med mooring on the long dock, etc.

The prospect of "Invitational" events is bad for sailing. In this case, it's cowardly, and in general, it's exclusionary. It is not what will keep more people involved in the sport. The logical comeback is for more clubs to become selective about who can race in retaliation.

Ragtime is in a rare position among sleds. She was the first. To say she's not a sled is a joke in any conversation. The races are being run under Americap, not boat for boat, so the "70" thing is corrected for. We shadowed the fleet to weather today, and then downwind, and defeated any argument that we aren't able to race with the other sleds boat for boat. Pretty good for a 42 year old boat.

The actions taken by LBYC, and by Peligroso and its owners, aren't Cornithian, and don't respect the sport or its history. The motivation, best as we can tell, is Peligroso does not want to race us in Transpac, or ID 48's, or TP 52's, so her way out is to try and create a class without them - and without us. Hopefully, by airing this issue, their goals will be thwarted.

There are two ironies about this situation. First, every skipper walked by LBYC's beautiful half model of Ragtime on the way to the skipper meeting. Second, Ragtime was bought out of New Zealand and moved to the USA after being outlawed for being too fast down under - and now, history repeats itself.

In retrospect, I'm glad they actually threw me out of the yacht club. It put a nice dot on the exclamation point of how poorly this was handled.

Chris Welsh
Ragtime
USA 7960

Here are the original emails:
(Mark Callahan is the paid skipper on Peligroso)

From: CallahanYachting@aol.com
Date: August 17, 2006 8:58:10 AM PDT
To: ragtime@chriswelsh.com
Subject: Re: Sled Regattas AGAIN

Good Morning,

Thankyou for your fast and positive reply. Also thankyou for the forwarding of the email. I will be in contact again very soon.

Thankyou,

Mark Callahan - Callahan Yachting
Long Beach Ca
cell. 619 - 990 2114
fax. 562 - 438 7686
skype. mark.callahan
CallahanYachting@aol.com


In a message dated 8/17/2006 8:39:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ragtime@chriswelsh.com writes:
Ragtime is in - thanks!

I cc'd Tim Hogan/Westerly and Don Ayres for forward to Doug Ayres/Skylark.

Chris Welsh
Ragtime
USA 7960

Hi there Chris,

I am writing to you, as to all the Sled (ULDB 70) owners, with the proposal of a new regatta. One just for Sled owners.

For some time now the owners that I work for, Mr. M.Campbell and Mr. D.Williams have talked of how good it would be to have a regatta held and run just for the SLEDS. Here in Long Beach where there was once great regattas with fast fun sailing on the ULDB 70 SLEDS.

Following some discussions of recent with LBYC committee it is a go. The Long Beach Yacht Club will provide staff, equipment and a venue from which to run a regatta on the last weekend of October.

Regatta Details
Date/s - October, Sat 28th + Sun 29th.
Location - Long Beach.
Racing - Saturday 3 races + Sunday 2 races.
Entry - $250 donation to the LBYC Junior Sailing Foundation.
Ratings - ORR (Americap). If a yacht does not have an ORR rating,
a suitable rating factor can be determined.
Events - Saturday, hors d'oeuvres party ($10/person), no host bar.
- Sunday, prize giving.
Docking - provided courtesy of LBYC.

This could be the start of a rejuvenation for the sled fleet racing and what will surely be a fantastic regatta for Sled owners.

Please email or call with your interest for participating in this event.

Thankyou,

Mark Callahan
Long Beach Ca
cell. 619 - 990 2114
fax. 562 - 438 7686
skype. mark.callahan
CallahanYachting@aol.com

#2 rastus

rastus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,177 posts
  • Location:On the water near a small town in NZ

Posted 29 October 2006 - 01:00 AM

fucking bad karma to exclude a historicaly significant boat that can still do the bisso

#3 walterbshaffer

walterbshaffer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,014 posts
  • Location:San Diego, California USA
  • Interests:Formerly Member No. 9720

Posted 29 October 2006 - 01:02 AM

Wow.

#4 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,666 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:23 AM

I've never liked LBYC - there is always some lingering bad vibe. This baby is going on the front page!

#5 Wash

Wash

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,259 posts
  • Location:Long Beach, CA

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:27 AM

They denied us entry yesterday by phone, saying we are 65' long, not a 70' sled, and we were not actually "invited".


None of the SoCal sleds are actually 70'--- The 70 # came from an IOR max rating of 70---- hmmmmmmmmmm

#6 Pete M

Pete M

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,869 posts
  • Location:So Cal

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:29 AM

ha ha ha - what a bunch of loosers - disinvite Ragtime? and the other 20+ yr old plastic sleds are too cool why?

#7 celphtaught

celphtaught

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,626 posts
  • Location:wherever there is water. and beer.
  • Interests:the great blue yonder. and random bits of string

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:33 AM

fuckin wankers

might want to take those email addresses out of the original post, some of the more hot headed may take other action....:lol:

#8 DryArmour

DryArmour

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,852 posts
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:00 AM

fuckin wankers

might want to take those email addresses out of the original post, some of the more hot headed may take other action....:lol:


From the information I have been able to gather today from Chris and others I am of the opinion that LBYC will be issuing a formal apology to Mr. Welsh (at least I hope so). I spoke with Chris at length about the situation this afternoon and he was calm, cool and amazingly collected considering what just happened to him...

My Dad was in politics and diplomacy for decades and even I know that while terrible things are said on the campaign trail to the hill or the house, once there the elected officials owe one another the utmost courtesy and respect once they are a member of "the club". By owning Ragtime, possibly the most legenday sled of all time, Chris is due at a minimum the respect that is due to the yacht itself.

I also know Mark Callahan personally and I don't ever think it was ever Mark's intention to do anything but promote an event for Long Beach Yacht Club that involved sleds. I invite Mark or Mike Campbell to post a reply here that might help rectify the situation and provide an explanation for what happened today at the club. Perhaps the club itself might post a reply or at a minimum a personal letter of regret (public or not) to Chris Welsh for what happened today in Long Beach if what has been reported is true...

#9 walterbshaffer

walterbshaffer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,014 posts
  • Location:San Diego, California USA
  • Interests:Formerly Member No. 9720

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:23 AM

I've never liked LBYC - there is always some lingering bad vibe. This baby is going on the front page!


I would get 1) Campbell's story, 2) LBYC's story and 3) verify Welsh's story before I did that: it's like what the police do (tying someone down to a story) so they can't change "the facts" when the story & the facts don't gibe (what a great pun, eh?) w/each other.

#10 Janer

Janer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,646 posts
  • Location:Santa Barbarian

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:30 AM

Wow, I am pretty amazed at this whole thing. I took over the sled organization after Leweck and Redler. It was sad during my years that the sled fleet basically moved to the Great Lakes. It was so exhilerating when we had 10-15 sleds on the line at Big Boat or Cal Cup (I crewed on Taxi Dancer in those days) I have been happy to see a bit of a revival in So Cal of sled racing. I have to say that Mike Campbell has always been a very corinthian sailor, gentleman, and a great asset to yacht racing so I can't believe that he really had any thing to do with this. I would think that participation in this event would be the biggest goal of a race organizer. I have had a
bad experience with LBYC when they refused me entry into the club (I was a board member at SBYC at the time), I was doing the
Golison Regatta and they would not let me in to use the bathroom. There was actually a guard at the door. What happened to reciprocity and supporting regattas whether it is your event or not? There was some bad juju at LBYC which seems to be continuing so that is sad. Ragtime is the ultimate original sled along with Merlin. If they are not using the original sled configuration rules/ratings why keep a historic boat out of it. And yes, not all "sleds" are 70 feet long. I hope LBYC steps up to the plate on this.

#11 Pete M

Pete M

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,869 posts
  • Location:So Cal

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:38 AM

I've never liked LBYC

best time I ever had at LBYC was at a J boats event - and that sucked

#12 TonkaToy

TonkaToy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 414 posts
  • Location:S.E. coast of what Ed calls Dumfukistan

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:43 AM

fuckin wankers



word...

TT

#13 Great Red Shark

Great Red Shark

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,660 posts
  • Location:Honolulu

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:10 AM

Gee, I wonder why the fleet isn't bigger ?

Whoever is responsibe for such a dumbass move deserves a little mockery - that is the weakest thing I've ever heard an RC pull - I'm having trouble believeing it. Was there some particular rating band PUBLISHED that they were targeting that Rags dosen't hit ? Because even if that IS the case, it's still a chump call of a very high order.

Paul Elvstrom's famous line comes to mind regarding somebody winning this way.

#14 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,152 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:26 AM

Ragtime was invited (?) to race the 70's Sled event, and I, owner of Ragtime, helped get other boats involved. They now have 7 entries, plus us. They denied us entry yesterday by phone, saying we are 65' long, not a 70' sled, and we were not actually "invited".

This morning, I went to attend the Skipper's Meeting. The PRO, Bobby Frazier, Rear Commodore of LBYC, saw me and asked if we were racing. I told him we were there to attend the Skipper's Meeting. His response was "look, we told you yesterday, you're not racing. Are you a member of this yacht club?" I said no. He then said loudly " Leave. Leave now." I said I thought we should see what happened at the skipper's meeting. He fetched the club manager and asked that I be ejected from the club premises. Literally. The Club Manager asked that I move to the front of the club, and after discussion, called their Commodore and asked me to let him air out the situation. The manager complemented me for being as level headed as I was, and when I was explaining what had happened said with surprise "The Ragtime? The one with the model in the hallway?" and agreed that things did not reflect well on LBYC at that moment.

The Commodore of LBYC, Conrad Banks, called me a few minutes after I was removed to deliver the news that Ragtime was in fact disinvited. He said directly that Mike Campbell and Peligroso were sponsoring the event, and what they wanted was going to happen. When I questioned the wisdom of this, he said "look, I'm just the messenger. I've got other things to attend to this morning. They don't want you to race."

Humourously, he invited me and my crew to come by for the evening cocktail party after the race...I told him that sounded pretty distasteful, given the situation, and he allowed that he understood my outlook.

It is distressing to see one boat dictating who and what will race, under the guise of yacht club regatta sponsorship. Personally, I think LBYC's status should be reviewed by US Sailing. Our exclusion is particularly annoying because we rushed out of the yard this week in order to get there. I had spoken with their race coordinator, Alex, last week to tell him we were coming, and see who else was attending, and Alex gave me the details about med mooring on the long dock, etc.

The prospect of "Invitational" events is bad for sailing. In this case, it's cowardly, and in general, it's exclusionary. It is not what will keep more people involved in the sport. The logical comeback is for more clubs to become selective about who can race in retaliation.

Ragtime is in a rare position among sleds. She was the first. To say she's not a sled is a joke in any conversation. The races are being run under Americap, not boat for boat, so the "70" thing is corrected for. We shadowed the fleet to weather today, and then downwind, and defeated any argument that we aren't able to race with the other sleds boat for boat. Pretty good for a 42 year old boat.

The actions taken by LBYC, and by Peligroso and its owners, aren't Cornithian, and don't respect the sport or its history. The motivation, best as we can tell, is Peligroso does not want to race us in Transpac, or ID 48's, or TP 52's, so her way out is to try and create a class without them - and without us. Hopefully, by airing this issue, their goals will be thwarted.

There are two ironies about this situation. First, every skipper walked by LBYC's beautiful half model of Ragtime on the way to the skipper meeting. Second, Ragtime was bought out of New Zealand and moved to the USA after being outlawed for being too fast down under - and now, history repeats itself.

In retrospect, I'm glad they actually threw me out of the yacht club. It put a nice dot on the exclamation point of how poorly this was handled.

Chris Welsh
Ragtime
USA 7960

Here are the original emails:
(Mark Callahan is the paid skipper on Peligroso)

From: CallahanYachting@aol.com
Date: August 17, 2006 8:58:10 AM PDT
To: ragtime@chriswelsh.com
Subject: Re: Sled Regattas AGAIN

Good Morning,

Thankyou for your fast and positive reply. Also thankyou for the forwarding of the email. I will be in contact again very soon.

Thankyou,

Mark Callahan - Callahan Yachting
Long Beach Ca
cell. 619 - 990 2114
fax. 562 - 438 7686
skype. mark.callahan
CallahanYachting@aol.com


In a message dated 8/17/2006 8:39:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ragtime@chriswelsh.com writes:
Ragtime is in - thanks!

I cc'd Tim Hogan/Westerly and Don Ayres for forward to Doug Ayres/Skylark.

Chris Welsh
Ragtime
USA 7960

Hi there Chris,

I am writing to you, as to all the Sled (ULDB 70) owners, with the proposal of a new regatta. One just for Sled owners.

For some time now the owners that I work for, Mr. M.Campbell and Mr. D.Williams have talked of how good it would be to have a regatta held and run just for the SLEDS. Here in Long Beach where there was once great regattas with fast fun sailing on the ULDB 70 SLEDS.

Following some discussions of recent with LBYC committee it is a go. The Long Beach Yacht Club will provide staff, equipment and a venue from which to run a regatta on the last weekend of October.

Regatta Details
Date/s - October, Sat 28th + Sun 29th.
Location - Long Beach.
Racing - Saturday 3 races + Sunday 2 races.
Entry - $250 donation to the LBYC Junior Sailing Foundation.
Ratings - ORR (Americap). If a yacht does not have an ORR rating,
a suitable rating factor can be determined.
Events - Saturday, hors d'oeuvres party ($10/person), no host bar.
- Sunday, prize giving.
Docking - provided courtesy of LBYC.

This could be the start of a rejuvenation for the sled fleet racing and what will surely be a fantastic regatta for Sled owners.

Please email or call with your interest for participating in this event.

Thankyou,

Mark Callahan
Long Beach Ca
cell. 619 - 990 2114
fax. 562 - 438 7686
skype. mark.callahan
CallahanYachting@aol.com


You should ask for Redress

in the form of

Doom and unmitigated failure :blink: :unsure: :o :o :lol:


That sucks

Ragtime will be KING no matter who owns Her



#15 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:26 AM

I'll take the contrary here....Mark C. is not a member of LBYC. Mike C. is. LBYC does an invitational and invites boats. I'm not sure where a J105 invitational regatta would allow a J109 to race...it comes down to did the YC invite them...no.

#16 Pete M

Pete M

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,869 posts
  • Location:So Cal

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:32 AM

I'll take the contrary here....Mark C. is not a member of LBYC. Mike C. is. LBYC does an invitational and invites boats. I'm not sure where a J105 invitational regatta would allow a J109 to race...it comes down to did the YC invite them...no.


wait, i'm confused, are you saying the IOR 70 sleds are like J105s, and Rags is like a j109? what, what?

#17 Bad Andy

Bad Andy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Interests:SAILING

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:43 AM

I'll take the contrary here....Mark C. is not a member of LBYC. Mike C. is. LBYC does an invitational and invites boats. I'm not sure where a J105 invitational regatta would allow a J109 to race...it comes down to did the YC invite them...no.


why would a J109 do a 105 race... its not liek they crashed the party just showed up with their invitation in hand

#18 Ragtime

Ragtime

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 49 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:47 AM

A few answers from Ragtime:
1. There was no stated rating band.
2. Entering was stated in the Notice of Race to be by invitation. I (apparently incorrectly) thought we had been invited based on the emails sent. The NOR and entry form were online.
3. As to being invited, I agree Mark Callahan was trying to garner support. He works for Mike Campbell, and it was pretty clear from his emails and direct conversation at the time that they were looking to get boats out but were concerned about the turnout. I threw in early in order to try and get others to commit as well, because I would like to see the fleet grow again. Verbally I was told it was going to be a casual event, trying to get the fleet going again, etc. I had no indication beyond this that an actual paper invite to the prom was needed - the emails are pretty clear that they wanted us to sail. And Mike Campbell was in the immediate vicinity when we were told we could not race and made no comment or attempt to rectify the situation. LBYC's Commodore made it very clear that Mike Campbell was sponsoring and controlling the regatta. His guy was the one who contacted us. When you are the leader, you take responsibility for the actions of your subordinates. At least I do.
4. LBYC may assert we did not have an entry actually in. We had it with us to turn in Friday when we were informed we were out, and we ultimately dropped it off with their race coordinator this morning before the skipper meeting. There was no entry deadline. As stated before, we had called the race coordinator to say we were still planning to race, etc, about a week ago and were told at the time that the entries were still coming in, no problem. No mention was made of the restricted entry list.
5. One of the thoughts we had for attending the skipper's meeting was to see about racing, but not being scored. Having the boat in the water after 4 months out at the yard and with 14 people ready to race, it seemed a waste to not be sailing. We were not afforded the opportunity to make that suggestion (or any other) before being ejected.

#19 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:51 AM

I'm not saying the ior sleds are 105s or any comparisions like that, it's they probably have a rating range were probably trying to stick to it and rags fell out of it...look at the boats...the yc in the email exchange did not invite rags...

for ULDB guy...I agree with you...the skipper or owner..member of another yacht club should be able to reciprocate...now, if the owner was told days before he did not fit the rating range....and thought he'd just show anyway....

#20 Bad Andy

Bad Andy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 909 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Interests:SAILING

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:55 AM

for ULDB guy...I agree with you...the skipper or owner..member of another yacht club should be able to reciprocate...now, if the owner was told days before he did not fit the rating range....and thought he'd just show anyway....


Either way if he wasn't causing a fuss why kick him out? let him sit in even if he isn't racing

#21 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:58 AM

Hi Rags...

I saw your post when I posted...love your boat...it's awsome! I'm justing missing the invitational part and someones BN sticking his foot in his mouth.

Good Luck this year.

Sweet boat.

CD

#22 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,525 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:19 PM

Wow. Are you sure that Rag's bow guy didn't get caught banging Frazier or Callahan's wife or something? That's some pathetic bullshit otherwise.

#23 Grinder

Grinder

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,637 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:48 PM

Ragtime is a cool fucking boat.
I've been out West racing twice & love seeing that sled.

Hope we see some follow up on this story.
Thanks for posting this, Chris.

Sounds like it was handled very poorly.

Jim -
Chicago

#24 Bitter Gnat

Bitter Gnat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,193 posts
  • Location:Right shore of Lake Ray Hubbard

Posted 29 October 2006 - 02:58 PM

Wow. Why would you not want to race against Rags?

We west coasters are just lucky her new owner has kept her here. Thanks for that Chris.

#25 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:35 PM

Wow. Are you sure that Rag's bow guy didn't get caught banging Frazier or Callahan's wife or something? That's some pathetic bullshit otherwise.


Obviously there is more to the story..the yacht club just does not do that...

#26 Harry Pattison

Harry Pattison

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 483 posts
  • Location:Newport Beach

Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:44 PM

Obviously there is more to the story..the yacht club just does not do that...


It did.

#27 Froth

Froth

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 226 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 04:22 PM

It did.


It did and it does. LBYC has evolved into a powerboat/happyhour club.

Earlier this year I spoke with a (1D48) boat owner and very active racer who was asked by the LBYC board to withdraw his membership application. I saw a copy of the letter from LBYC - its like freaking pushing the clock back 100 years. It didnt think that shit still happens today, but LBYC has never been a grass roots 'sailing for the sake of sailing' club. He was blackballed by board member(s) because of a biz deal/disagreement from 20 years' prior. Obviously adding an active racer to the LBYC roster didnt weigh more than an old ax to grind.

That is some lame assed shit too and yes, karma can be a bitch, but I really dont think they care.

Seems like they didnt care enough yesterday either. To hell with sailing history, with sportsmanship, participation, inclusion........ hey the answer you will get is: Its Their Club.

#28 Froth

Froth

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 226 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 05:54 PM

I'm not saying the ior sleds are 105s or any comparisions like that, it's they probably have a rating range were probably trying to stick to it and rags fell out of it...look at the boats...the yc in the email exchange did not invite rags...

for ULDB guy...I agree with you...the skipper or owner..member of another yacht club should be able to reciprocate...now, if the owner was told days before he did not fit the rating range....and thought he'd just show anyway....


Wrong:

What is curious about any 'rating range' issue here is that Pelligroso is rated much further away from the 'Sleds' than Rags is. So if you are looking for a fair range ...... you'd have to include Rags even before Pelligroso. Future 70's regattas are under americap so there may be a way for this new 'class' to make ammends.

Very Strange.

And anyway, shouldnt it be Pelligrosa since boats are female and its spanish - or did i miss that class.

#29 barleymalt

barleymalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,251 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:04 PM

Wrong:

What is curious about any 'rating range' issue here is that Pelligroso is rated much further away from the 'Sleds' than Rags is. So if you are looking for a fair range ...... you'd have to include Rags even before Pelligroso. Future 70's regattas are under americap so there may be a way for this new 'class' to make ammends.

Very Strange.

And anyway, shouldnt it be Pelligrosa since boats are female and its spanish - or did i miss that class.


I was thinking the same thing. The heyday of the sleds was the mid eighties, Peligroso as a modern design doesn't really fit against SC70s, Taxi and NM68s.

#30 unlurking1

unlurking1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:14 PM

Newport to Encenada 2006
Shot from a 1D48 Attached File  1.jpg   70.44K   296 downloads

#31 unlurking1

unlurking1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:18 PM

A few minutes later during this race.Attached File  2.jpg   79.97K   217 downloads

#32 unlurking1

unlurking1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:20 PM

Attached File  3.jpg   64.13K   185 downloads

#33 unlurking1

unlurking1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts

Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:24 PM

Attached File  4.jpg   91.95K   370 downloads

Ragtime caught kelp, obviously..

#34 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,152 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 29 October 2006 - 09:31 PM

Just my 2 cents on this situation

and how to avoid it in the future


First: Take the NOR beyond the required

State Clearly what you mean so it can not be misinterpreted

A "Members Only" Race

Written Invite Only, to be received on or before ??/??/????

Etc, Etc, Etc


Most importantly:

DO-NOT walk up with your reg. at the last min figuring to be racing

It's Not Fair to the Event

How many Racers should be prepared for Etc.

Many events are a Ghost town until the last min when everyone chimes in to race

What if an event were canceled a week early because no one had entered yet

And you were one of 100 boats that were about to enter at the last minute


If you are going to great lengths to prep for a race

Make your first step to "ENTER ALREADY"

If there is a problem

you'll hear about it in plenty of time to Deal with the situation

If you enter and hear nothing back till the event ( or pre party you have a gripe to be dealt with)



I must admit I have "NO Voice" in the running of any events

But I do have Eyes

Make it Easy on Everyone, Accept and Register EARLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh Yea and GO CHARGERS !!!!!
;)


#35 SPORTSCAR

SPORTSCAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,535 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia
  • Interests:sailing (duh!)

Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:38 AM

I was a wide-eyed 13 year old kid when Infidel, later to become Ragtime, was launched in Auckland, New Zealand; originally built to beat Lou Tercels legendary 60ft Ranger which had ruled Auckland Harbour since 1938. She wasn't considered a sled in those days as such things didn't exist in NZ. She went on to dominate "A" class racing on the Harbour and was a yacht I revered as a kid. I was once privileged to be shown over the boat by her proud designer, John Spencer, at a Squadron Weekend at Kawau Island in 1967. Some boats such as Infidel / Ragtime have a "feeling" about them that is almost palpable and that experience has stayed with me over the years.

Ragtime has since deservedly become a true legend in offshore sailing in the US and was indeed the very first "Sled". To exclude her from any Sled regatta seems petty and trite on someone's part. She is certainly no stranger to controversy but the late Sir Tom Clarke, who originally had her built, would be both saddened and amused were he to hear of this latest travesty of justice meted out to his old boat.

The boat and her proud history deserve far better.

#36 sailingjunkiexl

sailingjunkiexl

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 86 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:40 AM

Wrong:

What is curious about any 'rating range' issue here is that Pelligroso is rated much further away from the 'Sleds' than Rags is. So if you are looking for a fair range ...... you'd have to include Rags even before Pelligroso. Future 70's regattas are under americap so there may be a way for this new 'class' to make ammends.

Very Strange.


The wind was light all day Sunday, so Ragtime wasn't going to be threat against the faster boats anyway. I don't know if it's fair to blame all the LBYC folks. Looks like they have a couple of rogues. If the Rear Commodore succeeds the current Commodore - and if the current Commodore/eunuch isn't chastised for his lack of balls, then it would be proper to chastise the LBYC membership. In other words, let's see who steps up and deals with this issue in the aggressive manner that it deserves.

One footnote - the foregoing assumes that things went down as Chris Wesh described in his original post; that is to say that Chris was ordered to leave LBYC by Bobbie Frazier simply because he was not invited to participate in the regatta. If Chris remained cool and didn't cause a scene as he described, then LYBC' actions had to be very embarrassing for Chris. Additionally, I went to LBYC's website to view the NOR and couldn't bring it up . . . hmmmmm suspicious. :rolleyes:

#37 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,675 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:06 AM

Attached File  4.jpg   91.95K   370 downloads

Ragtime caught kelp, obviously..

You idiots had a hard time beating a stock Ross 40 with a tricked out Ross 40 boat for boat. Last year's Ensenada race was a crapshoot at best. Come on. You are hurting the 1D48 just in the same way you are hurting the Rocket 22. It doesn't matter how much you hide, we know who you are.

#38 razorback

razorback

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,300 posts
  • Location:Newly relocated to Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:03 AM

Doom and unmitigated failure to LBYC and their ilk.

#39 35degreesofheel

35degreesofheel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,237 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:20 AM

Fuck LBYC, a bunch of old guys who like to dress up and play "yachtsmen". I am disgusted every time I walk into that club because I don't feel like they put sailing at the top of their agenda. Ragtime is a clasic and should be allowed in any fucking race she wants to be in. There's a fucking model of the boat in the hallway!!!!


Chris, I think you should take that model as obviously LBYC has lost their priorities like so many other yacht clubs.

#40 BWR

BWR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 745 posts
  • Location:San Diego, CA

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:32 AM

Can't believe nobody has called for the popcorn and peanuts yet! This shit is great. Can I have an IPA with those snacks!

#41 tweaker

tweaker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 425 posts
  • Location:San Diego, CA

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:33 AM

I want to hear what Mike Campbell has to say about all this.

It all sounds so lame though.

Unbelievable!

#42 Capt Broach

Capt Broach

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:33 AM

What's cool about this is that I don't see Ragtime making any threats or calling the attorneys in. Hat's off to voicing his disappointment in a gentlemanlike way. Does justice to the boat and the sport.

#43 rudimentary

rudimentary

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:33 AM

I donít think the issue is as simple as ďshould Ragtime be racingĒ - I think everyone would agree big sleds in an ideal world should be racing against big sleds. The issue here is does a club have the right to stage an event that either involves ONLY club members boats, or specific boats by Invitation only?

While I think the LBYC is both stupid and shortsighted for excluding Ragtime based on the information posted here, I still think a club should have the ability to make decisions on the types of events they host and who can attend; even stupid decisions such as this one.

#44 southernocean

southernocean

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts
  • Location:Cape Town

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:37 AM

Fucking politics and sailing! What a disgusting thing to do. Bunch of tossers! The wheel turns and it will be their turn one day.

#45 NoStrings

NoStrings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,041 posts
  • Location:Richmond, CA

Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:05 AM

It would be nice to see the PICYA take some corrective action against the LBYC for poor sportsmanship if nothing else.

#46 Kiwi Spy

Kiwi Spy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,352 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:18 AM

>Second, Ragtime was bought out of New Zealand and moved to the USA after being outlawed for being too fast down under - and now, history repeats itself.<

Not correct, there was a number of good 60fters racing in Auckland at the time including Ranger which was pretty well unbeaten for 37 years. Infidel (renamed Ragtime in US) was pretty quick, particularly if she got a course with plenty of reaching and not too much windward work, but certainly was not outlawed for being too fast down under.

Sir Tom Clark sold her to build Bucaneer - which was designed as an offshore racer. However when it was threatened to enter Infidel in the Sydney Hobart the Australians suddenly found a scantling rule with which compliance would have been impossible. Of course the Aussies cited safety reasons, however really they didn't want a fast kiwi boat taking their race. In view of the later achievements of Ragtime, it seems rather small beer, now.

She became a legendary boat as time evolved, and deservedly so with her ocean racing record. Seems hard to believe that she is the same boat I saw walking past Spencer's shed, on my way to rugby practice, when I was 11 or 12yrs old.

These guys don't deserve to be seen in her company.

#47 Bedford

Bedford

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,518 posts
  • Location:Toronto, Canada

Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:56 PM

Tell me this isn't a sled...

Attached Files



#48 RCH

RCH

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 317 posts
  • Location:Redneck, USA

Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:22 PM

Regardless of what you want to call Ragtime, there is not excuse to treat a fellow racer like this.

This puts a black eye on the reputation of Long Beach Yacht Club and would expect an apology in writing from the club. There is no excuse.

PS - The only thing I can remember of her is watching a Warren Miller flick as a kid and seeing Ragtime and saying, "That is the coolest boat I have ever seen."

Deneying her entry would be like saying Dorade couldn't compete in the Bermuda race because she was unseaworthy. (http://www.sparkmans...ign.html#dorade)

#49 Blow Me Offshore

Blow Me Offshore

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 239 posts
  • Location:Some Small Town Somewhere East of Toronto
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:37 PM

Batards!

#50 jibeset

jibeset

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,976 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwest
  • Interests:Sailing, Fishing, Hunting and anything with ing on the end.

Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:38 PM

Just Amazing.

jibeset

#51 Barkley

Barkley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,947 posts
  • Location:C eh N eh D eh.

Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:50 PM

I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation from those who did this. If the Ragtime crew collectively pissed in the LBYC cornflakes I'd understand.... it's gotta be something like this, right? Otherwise...

#52 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:08 PM

I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation from those who did this. If the Ragtime crew collectively pissed in the LBYC cornflakes I'd understand.... it's gotta be something like this, right? Otherwise...


Obviously there is another side to this story...it does not make sense....oh by the way, it was LBYC members that brought ragtime to the states and campaigned her in the glory days....that alone makes you wonder who pissed off who first...

#53 scratch

scratch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:12 PM

Obviously there is another side to this story...it does not make sense....oh by the way, it was LBYC members that brought ragtime to the states and campaigned her in the glory days....that alone makes you wonder who pissed off who first...


I just peaked at their website and it said only boats that receive an invitation by the organizing authority...let's see the invitation from the PRO that says please come and play or was the rags boys crashing a party?

#54 sailman

sailman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,795 posts
  • Location:Portsmouth, RI

Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:16 PM

I'll take the contrary here....Mark C. is not a member of LBYC. Mike C. is. LBYC does an invitational and invites boats. I'm not sure where a J105 invitational regatta would allow a J109 to race...it comes down to did the YC invite them...no.

Scratch,

As was pointed out earlier, Ragtime was an IOR 70 rater and always was in the same group as the SC 70s, i.e. same rating. I'm sure if push came to shove with regards to US Ailings rules, if the invite said 70's Invitational Regatta that implies the 70 foot max rating and not SC 70s.

Just my 3 cents.

Will Museler

#55 dain bramage

dain bramage

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 521 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:21 PM

As the old saying goes.......I don't have a dog in this fight. But if I did, off comes the muzzle!

As a past board member and commodore of a sailing club with over 260 members I feel compelled to share my thoughts regarding this complete lack of integrity and responsibility displayed by the LBYC.

First of all. I do think clubs can have closed functions........including regattas, if they choose. I know of many clubs that do this without any problem. However, they are completely upfront about how the regatta is structured.

However, to publish the NOR ( without indicating its a "closed regatta") and then engage a possible competitor in dialoge (written and verbal) that indicates his anticipated participation only to slam the door on his face is upsetting and demonstrates a complete lack of character on behalf of the LBYC!

The sailing club I am a member of would never.........and I mean NEVER, treat a competitor with such dis-regard. Its no wonder why racing has participation issues. Why bother to put yourself thru this bullshit.........Just go cruising instead.

If any of the SAers out there are a member of the LBYC, then I would strongly suggest its time to step up and do the right thing and openly and publicly apologize to all offended parties. To not attempt to correct this wrong makes you guilty by association.

Individuals as well as clubs, associations, etc are judged by thier actions (or lack there of) and for the whole club to be judged in this light as a result of the actions of a few would be a shame!

LBYC members.............time to step up and demonstrate some integrity!

dain

#56 dannyv1986

dannyv1986

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,442 posts
  • Location:cleveland ohio

Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:58 PM

bitch all you want, but they can do it.

but if it was me, i would of left the boats alone for the start, then sail the course anyways... just like a race, and take 'em out, one by one.

#57 Delta Blues

Delta Blues

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,808 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:46 PM

From the hard and fast rules perspective:

The NOR decides who is eligible to participate in an event (invitationals, I believe, no longer exist in the sport as a result of the Ted Stevens Amatuer Sports Act - see USOC's website for the details on this Congressional Act). If the NOR says that only boats with fiberglass hulls may participate, then wooden ones can't. If the NOR says that boats 64' and above may participate, then one that is 63' 9" can't. So, if your boat met the requirements as outlined in the NOR, then your boat is eligible to participate. If the organizing authority doesn't let you in, then you can file redress as a quick step, but the real slap which would take longer (and your boat would miss the event is to go to Part VII of the new U.S. Sailing bylaws. You'll have to file a complaint and testify at a closed door hearing:
http://www.ussailing...laws9-16-05.pdf

As usual, if you don't protest - it never happened.

There are no police and no state prosecuters to take care of things for you. It is your obligation to stick up for your rights.

#58 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:56 PM

Scratch,

As was pointed out earlier, Ragtime was an IOR 70 rater and always was in the same group as the SC 70s, i.e. same rating. I'm sure if push came to shove with regards to US Ailings rules, if the invite said 70's Invitational Regatta that implies the 70 foot max rating and not SC 70s.

Just my 3 cents.

Will Museler



I don't know about that. For those that remember the ULDB 70 class was often refered to as the Santa Crus Protection Society. I agree with the poster that said Rags is closer to a ULDB 70 than Peligroso. I also asgree that Cambell is a class act as is Calahan so I would like to hear the other side before judgung.

#59 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,152 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:30 PM

You're nobody till sombody "Diss" you


I think RAGGs is quite the Nice Fit in the ULDB Class

Posted Image

I think a part of this story is missing :unsure:

Interesting to find out what it is

RAGTIME should have an open offer to just show up and race in any Class "SHE" Inspired ;)

WOODIES Rule !!!! ( Sorry in Advance ) :lol: :lol: :lol:

#60 -TG

-TG

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 398 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:36 PM

I've never liked LBYC - there is always some lingering bad vibe.


Totally agree... I've never felt more unwelcome at any other club on the coast.

#61 bjmoose

bjmoose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,551 posts
  • Location:Mountain View, CA
  • Interests:Laser sailing in district 24.<br /><br />Formerly, J24 racing in Fleet 17.

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:43 PM

Here's the NOR from the LBYC website. Note the eligibility requirements.

2006 70ís Invitational
October 28th and 29th, 2006
Hosted by
Long Beach Yacht Club
Long Beach, CA
Notice of Race
1. Rules
The regatta will be governed by the rules as defined in the Racing Rules of
Sailing, RRS 2005-2008. Where a conflict exists the Sailing Instructions
shall prevail over the Notice of Race.
2. Eligibility and Entry
All eligible boats must receive an invitation from the organizing authority.
3. Entry
Entry fee is yet to be determined. The entry fee will include post-racing
food and entertainment for all participating crews.
4. Schedule of Events
Saturday, October 28th
1000hrs: Skipperís Meeting at LBYC, Regatta Room
1200hrs: First Warning. There are two (2) races scheduled.
1630hrs: Post Racing hors díouevres and no-host bar
Sunday, October 29th
1200hrs: First Warning. There are two (2) races scheduled.
1600hrs: Post Race Reception and awards at LBYC
5. Sailing Instructions
Sailing Instructions will be available after 1800 hours on October 27th, 2006,
at the Long Beach Yacht Club.
6. Racing Course
The racing area will be approximately two (2) miles west of the Seal Beach
Pier.
2
7. Scoring
Four (4) races are scheduled. Two (2) completed races may constitute a
series. The Americap scoring system will apply. Four (4) races will be
counted for scoring purposes.
8. Trophies
Trophies will be awarded to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Place finishers
Additional trophies, if warranted, may be awarded at the discretion of the
Organizing Committee.
9. Support Boats
Support boats will be permitted.
10. Berthing
There will be berthing permitted on the LBYC Long Dock. Boats will be
med-tied outward from the yacht Victoria.
11. Further information
Contact:
Long Beach Yacht Club
6201 Appian Way
Long Beach, CA 90803
562 493-5173
raceoffice@lbyc.org

#62 Delta Blues

Delta Blues

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,808 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:43 PM

Here's their NOR: http://www.lbyc.org/...ager/70 NoR.pdf
Here's the Entry Form: http://www.lbyc.org/... Entry Form.pdf

While their NOR is not in concert with the Ted Stevens act, it does simply say that a boat must be invited, and from your emails it sure looks like you were invited. It looks like LBYC blew it, but hey, keep racing and having fun with that great boat!

#63 bjmoose

bjmoose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,551 posts
  • Location:Mountain View, CA
  • Interests:Laser sailing in district 24.<br /><br />Formerly, J24 racing in Fleet 17.

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:48 PM

....it does simply say that a boat must be invited, and from your emails it sure looks like you were invited....


That's what I meant to say.

#64 unlurking1

unlurking1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:52 PM

You idiots had a hard time beating a stock Ross 40 with a tricked out Ross 40 boat for boat. Last year's Ensenada race was a crapshoot at best. Come on. You are hurting the 1D48 just in the same way you are hurting the Rocket 22. It doesn't matter how much you hide, we know who you are.




Certainly, you ain't a mouse.

Why are we idiots?

Even Paddywagon had a few tricks. What does that boat rate now?

Last years Ensenada race was a cruise. Like the pics show, Ragtime was having some issues - it must have been kelp.

Who/what are we hurting? Why do you think we are hiding?

What do you suggest we do?

TIA

#65 Yaz

Yaz

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,019 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:56 PM

The sad state of big boat racing on the west coast being what it is, I would have expected the LBYC to welcome any and all sleds to such a regatta. In fact, I would have thought that Rags would have been a perfect flaghip for the event. Then again, I am not a 75 year old blue blazer wearing stinkpot owner.

If I was a 70 owner I would refuse to race in deference to Ragtime. Snubbing those bastards is the single best way to show distaste for their actions.

#66 MikeC

MikeC

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 469 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:10 PM

The sad state of big boat racing on the west coast being what it is, I would have expected the LBYC to welcome any and all sleds to such a regatta. In fact, I would have thought that Rags would have been a perfect flaghip for the event. Then again, I am not a 75 year old blue blazer wearing stinkpot owner.

If I was a 70 owner I would refuse to race in deference to Ragtime. Snubbing those bastards is the single best way to show distaste for their actions.

Did you ever think that they are all afraid of Ragtime? Big boats big egos. Some people just can't handle loosing.

#67 Tyler Durden

Tyler Durden

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:18 PM

It seems odd that they are saying Ragtime doesn't 'fit' withe the other 70's, Peligrosso is further removed from an SC70 than Ragtime is..

#68 fatdaddy

fatdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Location:VA
  • Interests:chasing the white whale and lusty, busty sea wenches <br />that'll eat apple pie in their underwear!

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:25 PM

Bring rags to the Cheese Bay, we have a NYYC designed 60fter that needs someone to race
long distances againist. old woodie big boats rock.


FD

#69 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,675 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:35 PM

What exactly qualifies as an invitation? Is an e-mail that does not state "you re invited to compete....." adequate? Is a verbal invite adequate? I really don't get this at all. It seems to me that the participant should have been sent a direct invite detailing the race and the requirments to enter, which presumably they already comply with, having received the invite. Btw, I am totally with everyone else, LBYC facked it up, just want to know what qualifies as an invite.

Unlurking, your'e an idiot for hijacking this thread to brag about your perceived sailing greatness.

#70 Delta Blues

Delta Blues

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,808 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:42 PM

that really sucks when somebody pulls this shit. there should be a way to put these people in their place



A flame burning on SA isn't enough for you?

#71 stripclubjunkie

stripclubjunkie

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,379 posts
  • Location:LA LA Land

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:48 PM

Someone out the off the water back story, there has to be one.... Probably something involving a daughter, a Rolls, an ex-wife, a cucumber, etc.... - there is something not being said here - yet....

#72 ABC

ABC

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 80 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:55 PM

Back in the days when Cal Cup would get a dozen plus sleds Ragtime was never there. Why???

#73 dain bramage

dain bramage

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 521 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:55 PM

From the Commodore's message on the LBYC web site.


"We are particularly proud of our long history of prominence in sailing regattas."

Guess they forgot that history .......thier history............is constantly rewritten!

dain

#74 Pete M

Pete M

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,869 posts
  • Location:So Cal

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:56 PM

I wonder - could it have anything to do with the repo & auction a couple of years ago?

#75 Yaz

Yaz

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,019 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:56 PM

Did you ever think that they are all afraid of Ragtime? Big boats big egos. Some people just can't handle loosing.


Yeah, but it seems a bit unlikely. Rags is an incredible boat, but she has been outpaced by the other 70s' many times over the years. She is capable of winning, but not to the extent that the others would be scared to race her. Having said that, winning such a regatta without Rags competing would be a hollow victory anyways.

#76 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,988 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:03 PM

A flame burning on SA isn't enough for you?


What makes you think they care about what is said on SA? Sure seems like a BS move but I doubt you will hear from anyone at the club or those that made the decision to exclude Ragtime.

They don't care and will just go their merry way ignoring what is right in favor of personal whims.

Because they can.

#77 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,152 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:04 PM

OLD WOODIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't need no stinking invite :unsure: :blink: :o :o :lol:

Posted Image

#78 Trov„o

Trov„o

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,236 posts
  • Location:south of the equator, west of greenwich
  • Interests:sailing (pretty obvious, uhmm)preferentially on boats with more than one hull ;D

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:10 PM

OLD WOODIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't need no stinking invite :unsure: :blink: :o :o :lol:

Posted Image


nice pic, da-woody. both of them look terrific.

#79 35degreesofheel

35degreesofheel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,237 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:10 PM

Whatever I am sick of yacht club politics. I want a sailing club that cares more about the sport of sailing and the promotion of sailing, than money and stature.

#80 Asymptote

Asymptote

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,586 posts
  • Location:Seattle

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:11 PM

1973 Transpac

Ragtime destroys the fleet and a big sign "RAGTIME" hangs from the hotel above the Ala Wai Basin. Ondine (the blue pig) and Grey beard and the other big boats were left in the dust.

Bill Lee's 40' "Panache" is in the fleet.

The SLED was born.

GO RAGS!

I was sailing an ultra-light schooner "New World" (69' long, 29,000#, built out of cold molded plywood by Spencer in NZ - Where is she now? We flew a friggin' gollywobbler!)

#81 Hitchhiker

Hitchhiker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,675 posts
  • Location:Saquo-Pilia Hensha

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:12 PM

Better start your own then!

#82 boyscout

boyscout

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 349 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:17 PM

She is a beautiful boat, with great lines. I would think that any regatta would love to have her racing in it.

#83 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,988 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:29 PM

Whatever I am sick of yacht club politics. I want a sailing club that cares more about the sport of sailing and the promotion of sailing, than money and stature.


Naw, he don't have to start his own Hitch. Copy what clubs like SSA have done. Less talk; more sailing.

Anyway, no highjack intended...

We now return you to the sound of silence from the club and folks that excluded Ragtime.

#84 firemdksailor

firemdksailor

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:39 PM

I don't know who LBYC thinks they are. I've been sailing on the west coast for 20 years and have particpated in most of their events. To exclude anyone from an event is stupid and especially a west coast hero like rags just makes the whole thing even more nuts. I think the sailing community needs to get behind the ragtime crew on this and see how LBYC likes it when nobody shows up to their next race week, I guarantee my boat will not be in it now. WOW! I just can't believe we've come to this. I guess LBYC thinks they are New York Yacht Club.

#85 pitman260

pitman260

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,724 posts
  • Location:New Jersey
  • Interests:music, law,sailing, travelling

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:44 PM

Isn't Southern California referred to as the breakfast cereal capital of the world

(Fruits, nuts, and flakes)---these flakes have thier own Club--so what's new??

#86 -TG

-TG

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 398 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:59 PM

Isn't Southern California referred to as the breakfast cereal capital of the world

(Fruits, nuts, and flakes)---these flakes have thier own Club--so what's new??


Yeah... like there's no A-Holes in Jersey, right? enjoy your winter.

#87 alchemist97

alchemist97

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 108 posts
  • Location:east coast - USA

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:01 PM

Wow! This story and similar stories played out at Yacht Club's throughout the country...The progression and development of our extraordinary sport once again stifled. No wonder college sailors leave the sport in droves after graduation--who would want to waste their time dealing with people like this---It's not like there was prize money up for grabs...these boats were just racing for fun. Where there any pictures taken of the race? Did any new equipment or science get tested? Did anyone become a better sailor or promote the sport in some manner? Where are the good news stories?

I am very proud of the owner of Ragtime for sticking up for his sport and crew. I hope his post encourages other owners and crews to do the same, stand up for yourselves! From what I understand if it wasn't for Ragtime, her legendary record, and breakthrough design none of those other boats competing would even exist. If our sport is to grow we need better press than this. Instead of a great regatta report inspiring prospective sailors and owners to go racing we have DISCOURAGED and DISGRACED a great game.

---one more rant...Any idiot with a powerboat, couple of buoys, stopwatch and whistle can run a regatta and keep score. You could even get the line and legs square with just a little instruction over a VHF...Why do the organizing authorities receive more attention than the competitors themselves...Heck if the competitors are organized enough they could run a rotation of rabbit starts to pre selected govt. marks. Keep score themselves and broadcast the results over the radio. Then have a big raft up at the end of the day to party and discuss the days racing. Maybe even invite spectators so that they may learn what the game is all about. The concept works well for pick-up dinghy races why not the 70 foot classes?

This should be major NEWS!

#88 montey_burns

montey_burns

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 668 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:23 PM

I am pleased to nominate LBYC for the 1st annual Doom and Unmitigated Failure award. Based on a long history of complete indifference to the needs and desires of the west coast sailing community they have shown a commitment to the blue blazer attitude that has helped keep this sport out of reach to the common man. The art of writing rules to guarantee an outcome has long been a part of Yacht Racing. LBYC, itís members and elected officers should be honored for keeping this tradition alive. How could you be a big fish in a little pond if you did not restrict admittance to the deserving few? Why should someone be able to compete based on ability when clubs like LBYC have been awarding trophies based on nepotism for generations. I for one applaud LBYC for protecting their members and hope to elevate myself to one day be worthy of membership into such a fine organization.

As a note to all of you that have been calling LBYC a club full of old gray haired pieces of $hit who couldnít sail across the harbor if their lives depended on it. You are out of line. The rumor about Bobby Frazier sucking off the entire regatta is unfounded and probably untrue. Mike Campbell did not at any time pay the board members to eat the corn out of his $hit and saying otherwise would be a blatantly false statement.

#89 Big Show

Big Show

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,389 posts
  • Location:T'ic' o' Fog

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:27 PM

"look, we told you yesterday, you're not racing. Are you a member of this yacht club?" I said no. He then said loudly " Leave. Leave now." I said I thought we should see what happened at the skipper's meeting. He fetched the club manager and asked that I be ejected from the club premises. Literally.

Regardless of what was said, the fact that someone showed up to race and was ejected and escorted off the premises is a prime example of the sort of behavior sailing has to work to correct.

How can any sailor worth his or her short-hairs think that's appropriate behavior?

Something stinks.

#90 Trov„o

Trov„o

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,236 posts
  • Location:south of the equator, west of greenwich
  • Interests:sailing (pretty obvious, uhmm)preferentially on boats with more than one hull ;D

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:28 PM

I am pleased to nominate LBYC for the 1st annual Doom and Unmitigated Failure award. Based on a long history of complete indifference to the needs and desires of the west coast sailing community they have shown a commitment to the blue blazer attitude that has helped keep this sport out of reach to the common man. The art of writing rules to guarantee an outcome has long been a part of Yacht Racing. LBYC, itís members and elected officers should be honored for keeping this tradition alive. How could you be a big fish in a little pond if you did not restrict admittance to the deserving few? Why should someone be able to compete based on ability when clubs like LBYC have been awarding trophies based on nepotism for generations. I for one applaud LBYC for protecting their members and hope to elevate myself to one day be worthy of membership into such a fine organization.

As a note to all of you that have been calling LBYC a club full of old gray haired pieces of $hit who couldnít sail across the harbor if their lives depended on it. You are out of line. The rumor about Bobby Frazier sucking off the entire regatta is unfounded and probably untrue. Mike Campbell did not at any time pay the board members to eat the corn out of his $hit and saying otherwise would be a blatantly false statement.


rotflmao :) :D :lol: :lol:

#91 DA-WOODY

DA-WOODY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,152 posts
  • Location:I'm in Sunny..-. Warm..& ..Dry San Diego . and your not :-)
  • Interests:Prime + 1 3/4

    COUGARS COUGARS & More COUGARS

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:36 PM

..Heck if the competitors are organized enough they could run a rotation of rabbit starts to pre selected govt. marks. Keep score themselves and broadcast the results over the radio. Then have a big raft up at the end of the day to party and discuss the days racing. Maybe even invite spectators so that they may learn what the game is all about. The concept works well for pick-up dinghy races why not the 70 foot classes?


Sounds like you are letting everyone

in on the "Gentleman's Regatta"

sailed in San Diego every Wednsday 52 weeks a year

Followed by a Great Party of and by the Racers

Rain or Shine ( I think it rained once, a few years back ) B)

It aint advertised, it aint got no sponsor

You know about it or you Don't ;)

#92 caneesq

caneesq

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 283 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:37 PM

Are you a member of this yacht club?" I said no. He then said loudly " Leave. Leave now."


How about, "no but I'm a member of XXYC, which is a member of SCYA, just like LBYC. Therefore, I have reciprocal privileges, and I'm staying." That should have worked.

Next year, DWYC will host this event. Try to get kicked out of there - just try.

#93 equivocator

equivocator

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 598 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:39 PM

Hey. Cut LBYC some slack. Magnitude, Scout Spirit, Med Man, Stark Raving Mad and Pyewacket weren't invited either.

This regatta was organized in the past 2 months to try to get the old 70 rater Sleds back together with a goal of establishing a series for the older boats. The oldtimers will recall that back in the 90's, Mike Cambell owned and sailed an Andrews 70 called Victoria.

In the 1980's and 90's, the group raced boat-for-boat, and consisted of the SC 70's, the N/M 68's, the Andrews 70's, and the R/P 68 Taxi Dancer. Racing in 'mixed regattas' with other classes was a nuisance, because of inevitable delays waiting for the slower boats to finish. As has been noted, Ragtime and other older "Sleds" never raced in the Cal Cup, BBS, or other regular Sled Class inshore regattas. She occasionally raced against the Sleds in "open" offshore events like the Cabo, Mazatlan, and Manzanillo races.

My speculation is that a decision was made that Ragtime's speed on the windward-leeward courses would have resulted in long delays between races, while the SC 70's, Andrews 70's and Peli waited for Ragtime to finish. As it happened, the regatta was sailed in light airs, Peligroso quickly sailed into a big lead in every race, and the older 70 raters pretty much sailed boat-for-boat. The leading traditional boats corrected out on Peli in every race. It was great to see Ragtime sailing before the start on Saturday, but I don't think Ragtime, with her short waterline, large wetted surface, and relatively small sails, would have been a factor in the racing, except for causing the delays described above.

There was no "scene" at the skipper's meeting, although there was discussion of the fact that Ragtime's owner had been asked to leave the club. What is clear is that she did not contest her exclusion under Rule 76, which is the mechanism provided in the Racing Rules.

Everyone should keep in mind that the regatta was created to test the level of enthusiasm for racing on the West Coast for the Sled Class, and Ragtime was never part of that racing.

The saying, "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind. Is it unfortunate that Ragtime was included in the initial communications, if there was no intention for her to participate? Unquestionably. Could the situation have been handled better by all concerned? No doubt. Was there a good reason for Ragtime to be excluded? Probably.

Some other questions: Should Chris Welsh have tried to crash the party, after it was clear that his boat did not fit the parameters for the regatta? Is it unsportsmanlike for Ragtime to publicly discredit everyone involved, because she was not included?

You decide.

#94 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:58 PM

Hey. Cut LBYC some slack. Magnitude, Scout Spirit, Med Man, Stark Raving Mad and Pyewacket weren't invited either.

This regatta was organized in the past 2 months to try to get the old 70 rater Sleds back together with a goal of establishing a series for the older boats. The oldtimers will recall that back in the 90's, Mike Cambell owned and sailed an Andrews 70 called Victoria.

What difference does it make what he owned in the 90's someone owns Rags now

In the 1980's and 90's, the group raced boat-for-boat, and consisted of the SC 70's, the N/M 68's, the Andrews 70's, and the R/P 68 Taxi Dancer. Racing in 'mixed regattas' with other classes was a nuisance, because of inevitable delays waiting for the slower boats to finish. As has been noted, Ragtime and other older "Sleds" never raced in the Cal Cup, BBS, or other regular Sled Class inshore regattas. She occasionally raced against the Sleds in "open" offshore events like the Cabo, Mazatlan, and Manzanillo races.

So why not pick which boat is closer Peligroso faster or Rags slower

My speculation is that a decision was made that Ragtime's speed on the windward-leeward courses would have resulted in long delays between races, while the SC 70's, Andrews 70's and Peli waited for Ragtime to finish. As it happened, the regatta was sailed in light airs, Peligroso quickly sailed into a big lead in every race, and the older 70 raters pretty much sailed boat-for-boat. The leading traditional boats corrected out on Peli in every race. It was great to see Ragtime sailing before the start on Saturday, but I don't think Ragtime, with her short waterline, large wetted surface, and relatively small sails, would have been a factor in the racing, except for causing the delays described above.

There was no "scene" at the skipper's meeting, although there was discussion of the fact that Ragtime's owner had been asked to leave the club. What is clear is that she did not contest her exclusion under Rule 76, which is the mechanism provided in the Racing Rules.

and this would have been heard before the races started if not whats the point

Everyone should keep in mind that the regatta was created to test the level of enthusiasm for racing on the West Coast for the Sled Class, and Ragtime was never part of that racing

I actually remember Rags racing in the first sled Cal Cup but I don't recall seeing Peli there

The saying, "No good deed goes unpunished" comes to mind. Is it unfortunate that Ragtime was included in the initial communications, if there was no intention for her to participate? Unquestionably. Could the situation have been handled better by all concerned? No doubt. Was there a good reason for Ragtime to be excluded? Probably.

Some other questions: Should Chris Welsh have tried to crash the party, after it was clear that his boat did not fit the parameters for the regatta? Is it unsportsmanlike for Ragtime to publicly discredit everyone involved, because she was not included?

It appears it fit as well as some of the other boats there

You decide.


You can exclude by length you can exclude by rating but to exclude Ragtime because she was 65' not 70 (Taxi is 68') or to slow (I would imagine she would have been closer to the other "70's" than Peligroso) or not technically a ULDB 70 (exclude Taxi and Peligroso). Either its a sled revival (only sleds that raced in the ULDB 70 class), its a 70' boat race only (no Taxi Dancer shes only 68') or its just a fun event for boats that are generally in the same size and rating band (Eliminate Peligroso too fast). So just say we only want our friends to come play and if you don't know the secret hand shake don't show. It was a nice idea but was horribly executed.

#95 dain bramage

dain bramage

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 521 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:59 PM

Was there a good reason for Ragtime to be excluded? Probably.
Is it unsportsmanlike for Ragtime to publicly discredit everyone involved, because she was not included?

You decide.

Your'e kidding right??

Ragtime didn't discredit LBYC and those involved. They did it to themselves!
And if Ragtime speaks truthfully and CANDIDLY about the situation....................so be it. But for you to say Ragtime was the one acting unsportsmanlike is absurd!

#96 The Commodork

The Commodork

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,899 posts

Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:02 PM

It's not surprising at all that Peligroso creates a shitfight since they do it so well...it was the same pain-in-the-ass whinging and sense of entitlement that chased Drew Freidas from the PH board.

These guys bring controversy to virtually every event they take part in.

At least Rags keeps its dignity...

#97 bad gas

bad gas

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 140 posts
  • Location:Santa Monica

Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:04 PM

"eat corn out of his $hit"

that is funny stuff!! I almost fell out of my chair..

#98 Prouda my Pickle Dish

Prouda my Pickle Dish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,836 posts
  • Location:Both places at the same time.

Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:11 PM

...sense of entitlement that chased Drew Freidas from the PH board.

I'm not entirely sure thats correct. Drew was/is pretty busy with work and his absences were a problem. His expertise is/was, however, missed.

That said, LBYC's conduct as reported is stunning. Mr. Campbell??? Your side please.








Chirp, chirp.





Chirp, chirp.

#99 1sailor

1sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,575 posts
  • Location:a small toilet bowl where I sail Lasers
  • Interests:'SuperFly' Audi / Melges 20

Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:11 PM

You cannot discriminate against people for race, religion, sex, familial status etc. etc..

You CAN discriminate against homo's, A-holes, and people who you fear were going to win the regatta, be a jerk or own a boat you do not like.

That said, there's gotta be more to the story. If it's that "surface" it's appalling. Somehow, I bet there's more. They don't have SA up in Long Beach ?

Nobody's talking ?

#100 walterbshaffer

walterbshaffer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,014 posts
  • Location:San Diego, California USA
  • Interests:Formerly Member No. 9720

Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:20 PM

My speculation is that a decision was made that Ragtime's speed on the windward-leeward courses would have resulted in long delays between races, while the SC 70's, Andrews 70's and Peli waited for Ragtime to finish. As it happened, the regatta was sailed in light airs, Peligroso quickly sailed into a big lead in every race, and the older 70 raters pretty much sailed boat-for-boat. The leading traditional boats corrected out on Peli in every race. It was great to see Ragtime sailing before the start on Saturday, but I don't think Ragtime, with her short waterline, large wetted surface, and relatively small sails, would have been a factor in the racing, except for causing the delays described above.


So in other words it would have "fit the parameters of the regatta more closely" to exclude Peligroso instead of Ragtime because there would have been less elapsed time between the first and last boats to finish. Yet somehow you've come to opposite conclusion that Ragtime would thereby be the more proper boat to exclude. I guess you are saying that Ragtime would have slowed down even the slower boats and that everyone on those slower boats so inconvenienced thereby did not want Ragtime to sail. Are you sure about this?

I will note that you are "speculating" as are many on this thread. Will someone please get Mssrs. Campbell & Callahan to address the big question? Otherwise we all all be stuck with guessing at facts not in evidence, presuming things we are not certain of (other than C. Welsh's poor treatment) and drawing conclusions which are unsubstantiated.

I will "speculate" that if the real facts were known we would all be even more repulsed by the actions of the LBYC and that this is exactly why we are not hearing from them; that the truth is uglier than the speculation.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users