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#1 Brian

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 06:06 PM

So THIS BOAT seems to have been for sale on e-bay for quite some time. At $6500 it seems that there must be something wrong as the price doesn't seem to bad (even if the keel is a bit on the deep side for a 28'er).

Anyone have the story?

Attached File  Mirage_28.jpg   16.91K   318 downloads

#2 PressureDrop

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 06:30 PM

That is formerly known as the Black Hole, which was John Whites MORC Internationals Champion from 1999-2000 I belive. Yeah it does draw like 7 feet or something. The ebay site said it was trucked across 5 states, but I find that hard to belive unless it actually did leave the annapolis area, and I dont belive it did. I belive the boat has been arround here the whole time it just hasnt been raced much. It has a massive keel and high aspect rudder but it should kill in light air. It has one heck of a great MORC rating, as I belive john did a lot or all of the design himself and I recall john saying that he prefered to do all the calculations for modifications by hand, so a lot of this is his own sweat and blood. Unless the boat has been damadged serously, I belive it would be a great phrf B boat with some new sails and lines. It had a new rig and rigging when he put it together as the site says, so that all should be fine. Just get it surveyed and add sails for a fast and stiff boat. John runs Whitehall Yacht Yard here in the annapolis area, you can call him at 410-757-4819 and I am sure he will be happy to talk about the boat when he has a minute as it is spring comissioning season.

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#3 Mr Lahey

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 08:27 PM

Looks like the rig and foils from a 33 boat on a 28 hull. If this made sense in MORC I can see why the rule has lost some momentum.

#4 r.finn

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 01:16 PM

Can anyone from the Gulf Coast say Challenge Cup machine! Looks good.

#5 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 12:48 AM

Looks like it was named 'checkmate' in 2004 and had a PHRF of 156!
http://www.eastporty..._amendment1.pdf

#6 PressureDrop

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 01:29 AM

Looks like the rig and foils from a 33 boat on a 28 hull. If this made sense in MORC I can see why the rule has lost some momentum.


The regatta was planned to be in mid July in Annapolis, better known as very light air or drifter, so thus why the boat looks so radical. So he gave it a large masthead rig for power and lower drag higher lift foils which are more modern. These foils need skill to keep flowing in light air, but in the right hands they will be lethal. Also due to the deep keel and rudder, the extra stiffening added down below, and the wide 9.5 foot beam the boat can be sailed well in breeze, and rewards hiking hard. The boat is a great windward leeward boat but does not like to reach due to the pinched ammount of stern in the water to help reduce light air drag. This boat is not typical of the MORC rule and the MORC rule was specifically created to design stable, small, ocean racers.

"Looks like it was named 'checkmate' in 2004 and had a PHRF of 156!"

Yes it was named Checkmate but no it did not have a PHRF of 156. It had a MORC rating of 156.00 as that regatta as it says MORC International regatta at the top of the page. At that time with the 160 genoa, which killed them in that regatta, the boat still rated 141 in the Chesapeake Bay. I am curious as to where you found that link as I can't find it on the current website?

In reference to that regatta I was there racing onboard Grace in MORC A and it was a hell of a regatta. Nearly all boats were thrown out of Friday's distance race because they did not sail the course even though the SI's were ambiguous. Three or four races were sailed on Saturday in perfect 15-18 knot southerly. Sunday started out as a drifter and became a squall. Fortunately they shortened enough for us to finish before the squall line came in and save everyone's Light #1 before it blew up because that is the sail we all got caught with. As I recall a 3DL Light #1 good to 8TWS does not look good in 18-20 going to the finish. All in all a great regatta that was tons of fun. Grace was a great boat with tons of trick stuff that was easy on the crew. I hope the new owner of Grace, now Bull Frog, is having as much fun with the boat as I had in my years sailing on the boat.

Ah damn I am reminiscing about old regattas again.

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#7 HHN92

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 01:39 AM

That is formerly known as the Black Hole, which was John Whites MORC Internationals Champion from 1999-2000 I belive.
PressureDrop



This would not be the first boat he has optimized. Seems like he took an old Chance 30 footer and created the same MORC magic a few years before this one.

#8 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 01:45 AM

DOH, I don't know what got into me......I knew I was supposed to type that....had just done a yahoo search for '31196 morc'. Searching '31196 PHRF' yields the 141 in the Chesapeake. http://www.smsa.com/...procser2004.htm

Looks like a very cool boat.

Yes it was named Checkmate but no it did not have a PHRF of 156. It had a MORC rating of 156.00 as that regatta as it says MORC International regatta at the top of the page. At that time with the 160 genoa, which killed them in that regatta, the boat still rated 141 in the Chesapeake Bay. I am curious as to where you found that link as I can't find it on the current website?



#9 BigWaveDave

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 02:42 AM

This would not be the first boat he has optimized. Seems like he took an old Chance 30 footer and created the same MORC magic a few years before this one.


... if you call cutting off the transom with a chainsaw and glassing in an outboard to get the 'inboard' credit MORC magic ! :blink:

(and I'm thinking it started out at 33 feet)

#10 PressureDrop

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 05:32 PM

... if you call cutting off the transom with a chainsaw and glassing in an outboard to get the 'inboard' credit MORC magic ! :blink:

(and I'm thinking it started out at 33 feet)


Close but no cigar. I dont belive there is a Chance 33 but I could be wrong. I belive the boat started off as an Allied Chance 30-30 and became a Allied Chance 28. If I heard correctly he still has the stern hanging up in his office or shop.

Interesting to hear about the glassing in an outboard, because I had not heard of that before. What I have heard of is MORC builders/tinkerers going arround to boatyards to try and find the heaviest engine they could because it gets a big credit as part of "internal ballast." Also interesting to note is the fact that these engines did not have to be working, so they would just use a small outboard to get to the course, and then lay that on the keel as well. The MORC 30 that I used to race on had 4, 50lb blocks of lead sitting in the top of the bilge sump as the credit for internal ballast was worth it to have it there.

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#11 THC

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 09:27 PM

The MORC favored a heavy boat, but it peanlized internal ballast. That is why a heavy engine was goodas it was not considered "internal ballast". Speaking of that does Invincible still carry all of that lead in the bilge? I think the was at least 1200# bondoed in, not that the bondo weighed anything, or that the measurer ever thought to count that in the amount of internal ballast.

I remeber hearing about "resin parties" out on the west coat. They'd try to pour as much resin as they thought they could get away with into their sumps to jack the weight of the boat up.

The games we used to play.

#12 flyguy1967

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 01:40 PM

I own one of these (but clearly not optimized as this one is). I have hull #2 and have spent the last 8 years doing beer can racing with it. These things, in their stock configuration, are killers in light air but absolute dogs in heavy air. I seriously considered buying the "Black Hole" about three year ago but decided to pass. The resale value on these is essentially nill. Don't worry about One Design since there only appear to be a couple left around (I think that there were only 14 made - but not certain of that). There is a "project boat" in the NW, one in Sandusky (Brian something - owner), this one and mine that I know of (Milwaukee). Great beer can boat, crapy on distance races and not real comfortable for long rides.

My 2 cents.


I brought the one that is now in the PNW from San Diego in the spring of '94. Sold it in '96 and it is now on its third owner up here. The boat performed exactly as Builder described above. Currently on the hard and in need of bulkhead and deck repair. Owner is an nice guy (I thought for about 0.05 seconds about taking it off his hands last year) and he has an intresting website if you can figure out how to navigate through it without stabbing you arm with a fork first.

#13 PressureDrop

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:20 PM

The MORC favored a heavy boat, but it peanlized internal ballast. That is why a heavy engine was goodas it was not considered "internal ballast". Speaking of that does Invincible still carry all of that lead in the bilge? I think the was at least 1200# bondoed in, not that the bondo weighed anything, or that the measurer ever thought to count that in the amount of internal ballast.

I remeber hearing about "resin parties" out on the west coat. They'd try to pour as much resin as they thought they could get away with into their sumps to jack the weight of the boat up.

The games we used to play.


If MORC penalized internal ballast, then why do some of the fastest MORC boats ever made, and both custom builds at that, Invincible and Grace for starters, have this much internal ballast? You are quoting Invincible has 1200# and at last check Grace had 200#. So how did MORC penalize this and both boats have a great or a good rating respectively.

I dont know about resin parties but I heard that when Bobby Muller was taking apart Stingray, he found that someone had poured bags of sand into special compartments, or a false floor, into the bilge.

These were some crazy games to play with the MORC rule.

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#14 THC

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 03:30 PM

PD:

An interesting conundrum regarding internal ballast; the rule favors a heavy boat, yet penalizes internal ballast. I can not speak for Grace, but on Invincible we "lowered" our rating by having a keel that was not excesively deep (and therefore penalized), our measured LWL was also shorter when compared to the other 30's of that time (Flak, Green Jeans, Zoo II, etc), as well as many other tweaks that I can not remember.

Another interesting "story" was the Andrews 30 that lost it on a highway going through Detroit. It seemed that after the asphaly ground through the hul there were interesting pieces of metal (shaped like ball bearings) found inbedded in the structure (at leat that is the story).

if you ever get below on Invincible you will see that it is virtually impossible to hide ant "tricks" like these as you can clearly see the numbers written on each block of foan that was used in the core. Squeeze was so proud of him workmanship he wanted to show it off to any one that cared. That is unless the Bay Boys got around to paonting the interior!

#15 BigWaveDave

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 03:50 PM

Close but no cigar. I dont belive there is a Chance 33 but I could be wrong. I belive the boat started off as an Allied Chance 30-30 and became a Allied Chance 28. If I heard correctly he still has the stern hanging up in his office or shop.

Interesting to hear about the glassing in an outboard, because I had not heard of that before. What I have heard of is MORC builders/tinkerers going arround to boatyards to try and find the heaviest engine they could because it gets a big credit as part of "internal ballast." Also interesting to note is the fact that these engines did not have to be working, so they would just use a small outboard to get to the course, and then lay that on the keel as well. The MORC 30 that I used to race on had 4, 50lb blocks of lead sitting in the top of the bilge sump as the credit for internal ballast was worth it to have it there.

PressureDrop


I believe this is a photo of the lovely yacht that won the 1995 Internationals in Annapolis.

No wonder MORC is dead...

Attached File  2ndch2.jpg   58.68K   137 downloads

Oh yea, and internal ballast was penalized in MORC, but not as much as blade or bulb ballast, so boats tended to move weight into the boat to reduce rating, and just carry more crew weight.

#16 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:05 PM

It's back:
Ebay Link

#17 rightshift

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:40 AM

Don't think there is anything wrong with this boat(at least that I know of). Its just not being used. Sitting on the hard in Solomons MD.for the last couple of years. Been only used a few times since John White campaigned it. John built(modified) some 'interesting' MORC boats and from what I've seen did it right.

Would make a great budget racer.

#18 mardy

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 02:44 AM

Don't think there is anything wrong with this boat(at least that I know of). Its just not being used. Sitting on the hard in Solomons MD.for the last couple of years. Been only used a few times since John White campaigned it. John built(modified) some 'interesting' MORC boats and from what I've seen did it right.

Would make a great budget racer.



been sold to a smsa racer

sold to a smsa racer



#19 mcsailor0303

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:36 PM

So one popped up for sale here in the great northwest.

What is the deal with these boats? Good PHRF/limited offshore stuff? Anyone have any idea what they rate? The one that's for sale is quite the project, but doesn't look anything like the one earlier discussed:
Posted Image

Thoughts?

#20 HWP

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

There's one that does VERY well racing out of Sandusky Sailing Club.

INFRARED KELLEY 28 OB 31039 PHRF = 168 JAM = 177 SSC HUNTLEY, BRYAN LP% = 152

#21 arcpix

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:14 AM

I just wrapped up a 16 year run on one of these. My boat was named f-stop and I sailed out of the Milwaukee Yacht Club. PHRF was 174 JAM 186. We basically did beer can racing and day sailing with it. Absolute killer in light air. Ok in medium air and mixed in heavy air. Reef and downsize sail area early and pray for flat water in heavy air. If you get those you can do well. If not you make it possible for others to do well.

Ours was a never ending project but only because we took really good care of it. If you go forward with it let me know. I have a ton of experience with these boats.

We just sold it last week after getting t boned with a big hole. We now have a fantastic J 30 for our next adventure.

#22 mcsailor0303

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:23 PM

Hey arcpix, I remember looking at your ad! I think I am going to pass on this project...the guy is only asking $1700! But I'm not even sure if I would be able to get a crane back to where it's sitting. On top of that, the thing is full of water, rotted bulkheads, old sails, etc... I'm just going to hold out for a SC27.

Thanks for the info.

#23 arcpix

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 04:50 PM

Hey arcpix, I remember looking at your ad! I think I am going to pass on this project...the guy is only asking $1700! But I'm not even sure if I would be able to get a crane back to where it's sitting. On top of that, the thing is full of water, rotted bulkheads, old sails, etc... I'm just going to hold out for a SC27.

Thanks for the info.


Excellent decision. Great boat for course racing but a pain in the ass if it's a project.

#24 squaresailing

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

Hey arcpix, I remember looking at your ad! I think I am going to pass on this project...the guy is only asking $1700! But I'm not even sure if I would be able to get a crane back to where it's sitting. On top of that, the thing is full of water, rotted bulkheads, old sails, etc... I'm just going to hold out for a SC27.

Thanks for the info.


Scott, you have never seen the boat, which does have an inch or so of rain water in the bilge, and which does need some bulkhead work and deck work. I told you a crane company assured me they could lift the boat onto a trailer, and quoted me 250.

Neil Pryde loft when they were in Seattle, assessed the value of the sails at 8200.00 ( yes several years ago) and considered some of the better sails to be new or like new. Of course you cannot expect that inventory to be had for 1700.00, but as I mentioned to you whom ever buys the boat has the option.
The price = Lead, Engine, Hardware, the rest is free. Including the 1.5 gallons "filling" the boat.
Never having gotten closer than 100 miles from my boat, makes what you are doing here in public, rumor munging.
So here is some advise: When one is a flake, one must make daily attempts to keep his mouth shut.

As far as I am concerned you owe me an apology, and here, just as public as your comments.

#25 mcsailor0303

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:08 PM

WHOA!

Dude, I meant no offense. For that, I apologize. However, I wasn't 'rumor munging'!? IN FACT, I'm the one who directed you to this website AND forum topic when we spoke on the phone, YOU ASS. And FLAKE?! Don't try selling a boat that's been sitting in a yard for ~5 years with 10 year old pics man!

Good luck selling the boat.

#26 casc27

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:29 PM

Ah, I think I'll start some popcorn...

#27 Dr Kenneth Noiseworth

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

Out of popcorn just got back from the store. What did I miss?

#28 hobot

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

Definately beer thirty here.

#29 Great Red Shark

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:09 AM

"You ASS" - now THAT doesn't sound like much of an apology, does it ?

I love it when someone tries to sell something and puts little-to-no effort into presenting it properly and then gets hacked off when it is dismissed ( I see this a lot in motorcycles) - if you want somethign to MOVE (let alone get a good price for it) then CLEAN IT THE HECK UP, remove the damage and do the basic stuff that indicates it has seen SOME level of care other than total neglect - if the owner doesn't value it enough to pay it a little attention, then how is the prospect to regard it ?

#30 dolphinmaster

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:48 AM


Hey arcpix, I remember looking at your ad! I think I am going to pass on this project...the guy is only asking $1700! But I'm not even sure if I would be able to get a crane back to where it's sitting. On top of that, the thing is full of water, rotted bulkheads, old sails, etc... I'm just going to hold out for a SC27.

Thanks for the info.


Scott, you have never seen the boat, which does have an inch or so of rain water in the bilge, and which does need some bulkhead work and deck work. I told you a crane company assured me they could lift the boat onto a trailer, and quoted me 250.

Neil Pryde loft when they were in Seattle, assessed the value of the sails at 8200.00 ( yes several years ago) and considered some of the better sails to be new or like new. Of course you cannot expect that inventory to be had for 1700.00, but as I mentioned to you whom ever buys the boat has the option.
The price = Lead, Engine, Hardware, the rest is free. Including the 1.5 gallons "filling" the boat.
Never having gotten closer than 100 miles from my boat, makes what you are doing here in public, rumor munging.
So here is some advise: When one is a flake, one must make daily attempts to keep his mouth shut.

As far as I am concerned you owe me an apology, and here, just as public as your comments.


Square, welcome to your ignominy, and out with pics of your wifes or girlfriends tits. Thank you in advance

#31 jackdaw

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

I'm disappointed. This had such potential.

#32 dan catalyst

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 02:41 AM

Just bought this boat. Going to name her Black Hole again and maybe store her back at whitehall.

#33 SloopJonB

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 03:42 AM

Pics or it didn't happen.



#34 dan catalyst

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:08 AM

heres a shot of her ass end, but keep in mind this is allot closer than youll ever get.     857.jpg



#35 SloopJonB

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:16 AM

Looks good. Should be a tad less work that the Tonner.



#36 J29Guy

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 03:41 AM

Closer than I'll ever get funny but we on the J 29 would never see the back end only the front.  :))  That's if we could ever see it from that far away.   Just poking fun  We have one that races local and he kicks our a$$ all summer long.  

 

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#37 dan catalyst

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:00 PM

I dont want any trouble in a match w/ a j29,lol. I get the feeling this boat is going to be hard for me to sail to 141. This is my second boat drawn by Bruce Kelley. First was the proto for the lindenburg 22. If yall have any leads on a few thick but nimble girls from MD post up some pics,im going to need some rail meat this weekend.




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