137 replies to this topic

[Melcryptovestimentaphiliac]

Congratulations Newbie you just had your chance to state your opinion and instead you proved your parents were closley related prior to marriage.

Easy Montey, Just because my handle said newbe doesn't make me one. Stay on your lake(sandbox) and dont share your toys.

Just admit (to yourself for all I care)your french/canadian and I will leave you alone.

[montey_burns]

Easy Montey, Just because my handle said newbe doesn't make me one. Stay on your lake(sandbox) and dont share your toys.

Just admit (to yourself for all I care)your french/canadian and I will leave you alone.

Congratulations you finally found me my name is Terrance and I have a pretty popular TV show up here in the great north.

[Froth]

Montey shows up right on que to bayonet the wounded..

well to be fair to montey, the guy really doesnt get it.

perhaps montey has run into too many out there that dont...and he's a bit sensitive.

[barleymalt]

The five people that replied earlier pretty much got that point across without the rancor.

[surf nazi]

Hey Hack, the point you missed was your stated favorite move was to screw someone you said was better then you out of a start. Last time I checked the North American Finn racing circuit your so proud of consisted of 3 boats. So I guess that makes your move all the more effictive because you just eliminated half your competition. If you want to get your a$$ handed to you in a real fleet come sail pelicans on Lake Merit and I'll teach you a thing or three about starting tactics.

I'm only responding to your comments re the Finn class in North America. You obviously haven't checked on it in quite a while. The NA finn class is alive and well with some big fleets showing up not only for the national events but also for regional, local and masters regattas.

Was the comment about sailing pelicans ( can you really do that ? is that legal ? aren't they protected by federal law ? ) on Lake Marlboro for real or was that a joke ?

I do agree that bragging about trying to screw up someone's start just for the heck of it is very lame. And that being windward of the port tack approach group is kind of basic tactics and not a stellar sailing move like the old port tack pin end start in a big fleet.

[TheBowGuy]

Manhassett Bay Fall or Spring Series late 90's - We're racing on a J35 and we are way ahead but confused about where to finish. We head to what we think is the finish and pass one of the RC boats without getting a sound signal. We realized that we were not at the finish line and have to continue to sail downwind to the finish. The other boats trailing us would have definitely beaten us if they realized our mistake. Without missing a beat, the skipper says "ok everybody stand up, make it look like we're drinking beer" At the same time the trimmer and the skipper continue to drive downwind just long enough to get back in front and win the race for a second time

[Cable-Layer]

My favorite procedure is the spinnaker peel. Nothing more graceful than a hoist, pop, run, re-lead, and lock to go faster. At least for a bowman. I don't do that anymore. My belly gets in the way.

[rolltacker]

Really?
Let's suppose that
1) I don't let you set up on my hip to start - Option #1
2) I rub you off on another boat anywhere during .
3) I jibe away during that sequence just past the boat. Now you are either forced to jibe inside, trapped between me and the boat or break your maneuver.

There are a ton more.

Your whole strategy is based on the other boat doing what you want it to. There are counters to any starting strategy, particularly one that you know is coming.

Barley, all apologies, I just saw the above post. Here's my rebuttle:

1) If I'm dead on your transom, I can go above or below you at will easily as the second you turn up or down, you create the overlap.

2) This may be true, to which I say, well played, but again if I'm dead on your transom, it's hard to rub someone off, not impossible, but hard. If rubbed off I'll go the other way on the obstacle and meet you again on your transom.

3)If I choose to, as you bear away for your gybe, I too bear off and become leeward and stop you from gybe, the key being that I'm right on your transom.

I'm not trying to be difficult, just defending this move. Sure there are some flaws with it, but often a person may not be aware it's happening until the last minute. Typically, you can control the other boat pretty well from behind in pre start. Doing this on starboard tack is even more effective. I'm sure you've match raced before as have I too. I appreciate your constructive criticism.

[barleymalt]

But your scenario was on the hip, not on the transom. And you can't stop someone from gybing, if they move to avoid as burdened vessel, you have to let them avoid or potentially be protested. I am not saying that your approach can't work, just that there are a lot of potential counters to it. I would think that someone observant is going to know that you are shadowing them, and start to take steps to escape.

[ChiGuy]

1) If I'm dead on your transom, I can go above or below you at will easily as the second you turn up or down, you create the overlap.

When I asked a decent match racer what to do in a situation like that, her suggestion was to stop, not dig a deeper hole. Dial-up and start all over again. So well before getting to the r/c, I'd luff htw. If you luff inside of me, now you're the windward boat and have to keep clear. We can now just sit there and wait for the starboard tack parade to come along.

[Tom O'Keefe]

It's impossoble to chose a favorite. But, I'll reach back for a good old one.

1989 Puerto Vallarta race on Lean Machine about halfway across the Sea of Cortez. Wind was light early in the morning and at about 75 AWA. We're reaching along under #1JT. Christine is about 2 miles ahead and 1/2 mile to leeward. While it's light we pulled even and stay about a half mile to windward. But, as the morning turned to afternoon the breeze built and lifted. The thing was that as the TWS went up the TWA went back. So, we had constant AWA for our course to the barn. Rather than peel to a chute, we just went double head rigged with the working jib beneath on the babystay and watch the windspeed climb and lift. Finally, it's blowing 25+ and we're so deep we're DDW just smoking along at 18 knots. Christine has been doing the same. But, just held their JT. The breeze started to head both of us below rum line. So, we went to do a change down. Problem, there's no where to turn down and the JT is too loaded to just strip. So, we let the sheets run and pulled the JT down while it's blowing straight out ahead of the boat. Then we just dialed up the 10 degrees we needed and watched Christine disappear off below us.

[Wet Spreaders]

2006 Big Boat. Heading to a finish off the St Francis deck from Blackaller. Kites up, 20kts. In front of the club bar and about 8 boat lengths off the shore.

Three boats - Spartan 5 bl to leeward and 1.5 BL behind, Arbitrage dead ahead and 3 feet off our pole. Puff comes in and we accelerate - I have a choice - above or below Arbitrage. Below meant losing the puff, but safe and probably a finish of Arbitrage, us, then Spartan, above meant getting luffed by "A" and maybe losing both "S" and "A".

I chose above and Arbitrage luffed very hard. Our trimmer released the kite and our mast guy eased the vang. Under control, we held high and off them by about a boat length. Then another puff hit and they started to round up. We accelerated under control, bore away in the puff past their sprit and hit the line ahead of both Arbitrage and Spartan.

The only downside was that we were fighting for 18th - it would have been much more impressive if we had been at the front of the pack. Probably would have made the online video highlights (one of the websites was filming) if we had been lead boats.

[MosquitoBob]

What's some of your favorite racing moments?

One of my favorites, since we seem to pull it off regularly: Calling for, and perfectly executing, a gybe spinnaker set at the windward mark following a favourable wind shift, laying the leeward mark and passing all the other boats ahead of us while they are on the wrong board since they called for a bear-away set. Makes me smile for quite a while!

[Death Dealer]

I dont use it unless I need to...typically final race for the win type maneuver. I'm typically a real nice guy on the course, but I do have an arsenal if need be. We're not out there to play patty cake. Leave it all on the course.

I'll remember that if at the next regatta I see you behind me.

[rolltacker]

But your scenario was on the hip, not on the transom. And you can't stop someone from gybing, if they move to avoid as burdened vessel, you have to let them avoid or potentially be protested. I am not saying that your approach can't work, just that there are a lot of potential counters to it. I would think that someone observant is going to know that you are shadowing them, and start to take steps to escape.

Point taken Barley about the observant, to which the game then changes, but this thread isn't about counters, it's about a move, to which others likely have not caught on to. There are obvious counters to port tack starters as well, but that's not the point. What my diagram intends to show is a very very close tailing of the other boat to which the tailer can go low or high at will. Indeed if there are other boats on starboard that leave the tailed with no other option than to gybe out, I'm not going to be the jerk that creates colissions, but often they are looking ahead for their hole to stuff up the next guy / lee bow a starboard tacker. I totally agree with you that someone who sees it happening will likely take defensive action.


ChiGuy, thanks for your input. With regard to match racing, it is almost always prefered to be the tailing boat in pre start. That's why in the run up you see them circling each other like dogs trying to get a good wiff of butt. That dance is to get into the controlling spot of the tailing boat, as I understand it and have used very successfully in match racing pre start.

However, you are right that you could just go head to wind before the boat and hold me up until the starboard parade came along, but again I have advantage as I can get to close hauled and accellerate first and leave you in their gas as you try to build speed after luffing while I pinch a little and put you into the second row.

Thanks for your insight gentlemen. You both have super valid points.

[Carboninit]

My favourite move was winning the worlds three times and knowing that im leaving the UK .

[rolltacker]

My favourite move was winning the worlds three times and knowing that im leaving the UK .

Now that's the "MOVE"! Good on that!

[Phoenix]

My favorite move of all time was when a kid three years older than panty thief beat him up at school. That afternoon his brother, Franklin's Tower, beat the shit out of the offending lout. He was suspended for three days. He got ice cream every day.

I'll have you know that panty thief's mother and I weren't related prior to our marriage. She did tell me that I had to stop humping your mom once we were married though.

Careful what you say or I'll bring him, Franklin'sTower and as many others as we need up to your mud puddle to play. We don't race pelicans here we feed them. We race sail boats instead.

Don't piss on people, you never know what kind of trouble it might bring.

[chuso007]

My favourite move was winning the worlds three times and knowing that im leaving the UK .

What worlds?

just curious...

[WarBird]

I almost forgot another favorite racing moment. At the Milwaukee Grand Prix last year, there was a course change that the whole fleet seemed to overlook. I remember being set up on the layline for the old mark side by side with some boat named War Bird. When we tacked away to head to the correct mark, everyone else just looked at us funny and proceeded to follow the lead boats to the wrong mark like lemmings going over a cliff. There's nothing more satisfying then being the only boat to sail to the correct mark while the whole fleet blindly heads in the wrong direction.

I think it still says "LEMMING" on my transom

[chaosmaster]

A fake tack that actually worked. In a Chicago NOOD, we were pinned on the left by our closest competitor, getting closer to the port layline. We'd managed to condition them nicely, so they were ready to tack immediately when we did. This time, we didn't complete the tack. Gave us just enough breathing room to get to the windward mark ahead.

Just to add to this story, we knew we really had to "sell" the tack, so people were jumping off the rail, scampering halfway across the deck, jib released... and then fall right back on track with speed building.

The best part was not that the fake tack worked, but as the two boats were sailing away from each other on opposite tacks, you could hear a loud (and defeated sounding) groan from the crew of the other boat as they all got on the rail and sasw what had just occurred.

[chaosmaster]

One of my all time favorite moves was a total fuck up that ended up smelling like roses.

Chicago Verve Cup a number of years back. As we headed out to the leeward mark, we were headed into a convergant zone and, as luck would have it, there was just about ZERO wind right at the mark. We are coming in on the stbd layline sailing high angles with speed and the chute up and there is no less than 20 boats PARKED at the mark, with more coming in from the other side. We really have no rights, the driver is screaming at me "We are screwed! Why did you put me here?" and our only choice is to find a hole and go around this whole mess on the outside of the pinwheel...

But wait... there is a T10 in front of us by about 3-4 boat lengths, sailing the same angle with speed and he is heading straight for the mark!!! "What the fuck is he doing?" I ask. Skipper responds that he is going to foul everyone at the mark.

"Follow him in!"

Long story short... the T10 goes inside everyone... fouls everyone... everyone screaming bloody murder at him... might have been some crunching noises ... and he cleared just enough room for my skipper to stick his nose in, spin the boat around the mark, and take what little boat speed we had left and get the hell out of there... without fouling anyone!!!

BIG WIN!!!

[rolltacker]

One of my all time favorite moves was a total fuck up that ended up smelling like roses.

Chicago Verve Cup a number of years back. As we headed out to the leeward mark, we were headed into a convergant zone and, as luck would have it, there was just about ZERO wind right at the mark. We are coming in on the stbd layline sailing high angles with speed and the chute up and there is no less than 20 boats PARKED at the mark, with more coming in from the other side. We really have no rights, the driver is screaming at me "We are screwed! Why did you put me here?" and our only choice is to find a hole and go around this whole mess on the outside of the pinwheel...

But wait... there is a T10 in front of us by about 3-4 boat lengths, sailing the same angle with speed and he is heading straight for the mark!!! "What the fuck is he doing?" I ask. Skipper responds that he is going to foul everyone at the mark.

"Follow him in!"

Long story short... the T10 goes inside everyone... fouls everyone... everyone screaming bloody murder at him... might have been some crunching noises ... and he cleared just enough room for my skipper to stick his nose in, spin the boat around the mark, and take what little boat speed we had left and get the hell out of there... without fouling anyone!!!

BIG WIN!!!

Awesome! A true unknowing wingman on a kamakazee mission.
Plus...........................your avatar........it's.......hypnotic........................can't.........look............away.................

[5 kt Shitbox]

This is me in the slowest boat in the fleet.





This is a kind screwed up race where the windward mark is offset way to the right side of the course making the port tack very long and the starboard one rather short. The line does favor port slightly but the pin end is closer to the next mark. The other factor is that there is a current plume that comes out of a channel and runs by within 4 or 5 boat lengths to the right of the windward mark. So if you go out to the layline you buck current on starboard tack. The green SC-27 tacked onto port at the gun and everybody else pretty much followed since he was a visiting rockstar. I hit the layline only a boat length from the mark, tacked around and launched. He was leading the layline parade from about 10 bl's down from the mark. My Fun 23 rates 180, the SC-27 was racing at a very generous 147. I've pulled this a couple of times but this is the only one I have photographic evidence of.

[Andrew W]

This was a great move ... On a Schock 35 (66), & we made a few right calls going up to the top mark. We sent Staghound (-37) back the other way as we where on Starboard. After 5 minutes, they came back at us & had to duck us, & then follow us in to the top mark. Being the smallest boat in the fleet, and rounding the top mark 1st was really cool.

After the mark, we stayed high & let them come under us, but they couldn't poke thru as we where sailing lower forcing them to sail lower than they wanted with there assym sail up - we held them off nearly till the 2nd mark. We went to take the PHRF win by a healthy 3 minutes over a 5 mile course.

Attached Files

•  1_Starboard__.jpg   14.37K   18 downloads
•  2_Follow_Us__In.jpg   14.02K   7 downloads

[HHN92]

J24 fleet race going for the leeward mark on stbd. right on the transom 'drafting' a competitor. Two guys coming in on port bow to stern. The whole way we're worrying the guy in front as much as we can, first the weather hip then the leeward hip, then right on his rudder, ratchets going all the time for effect. He starts looking at the guys to weather. Tell the crew we need the best drop and gybe at the mark, has to be perfect due to the 180 deg turn back to the finish. Catch him looking, dive inside for an overlap, drop and turn with the boat we were fighting losing both port boats and we're able to pull away from their battle at the mark.


Not a winning move but first race on a J35 driving. Go around the weather mark overlapped with another J35 and he is going to take us up to the moon. Head-up to gain gauge then bear away hard to set the chute. Felt a slight bump but everybody thought it was the foredeck crew banging around with the set. After the set the foredeck crew picks up pieces of red and green lens.

Missed it by about that much................................

[40grit]

Star sailing, with leeward gates. Alejandro has been all over me up wind and now has schooled me on the run. He's preoccupied with controlling the inside, and fails to notice the right gate is favored. I wait until he's committed, and jibe.

recognizing the ropadope, priceless.

[ducky]

What worlds?

just curious...

snark!

ducky

[some dude]

Doesnt sound familiar at all to me.

And besides, it sounds way too stupid to be true.

you must not have been in Marion

it was stupid. if you want to read about that class' stupididty look at every 3rd SA forum thread and they'll tell you all about it

but rest assured that it was true. we all went to the Wave after and told the old drunk guy at the end of the bar about it, because he was the only one there

[DTH]

well, I once dumped an I-14 in front of the commodore at the Royals sailpast......

[mcscw]

95 MC Scow Nationals at Rush Creek in Dallas, I'm a junior at the time sailing a 14 year old boat. Approaching the windward mark I realize I'm rounding 1,2 with Andy Burdick of Melges Boatworks. I'm approaching on port, Andy on starboard. I have to duck, get hit by a puff as I am ducking, mainsheet is wrapped around my leg so I can't ease......couldn't bear off quick enough for fear of turning over.....so I give Andy a nice bump in his brand new factory boat He was very sportsman like about it though and didn't give me any shit.

[rolltacker]

Toliva Shoals race in South Puget Sound. Horrible adverse current has us hugging the shore going through the fairly narrow passage betwen eagle island and McNeil Island (prison island). Relief from the current was the name of the game. In this pic taken by the great Sean Trew, you see we sailed through the pilings on the prisons car ferry dock. Two boats could not have fit at the same time. This move put us bow out on the entire fleet including Dragonfly (-125 Formula 40) Although we ended up having to anchor about 200 yards later byt that rock due to insane current, it still ranks up there in favorite moves.

[Matt D]

Anytime I can keep an I14 upright in 25+ knots throughout a race. Normally this means an automatic top half/top third of the fleet finish.

[hhsa]

Laser racing in our local fleet, I pulled a Boat whisper move that allowed my fat 200 pound ass to sail past all the thin kids in light air. I sat up front of the centerboard and healed the boat slightly to weather (opposite of everyone in the fleet) and sailed higher and faster than everyone and beating them all to the windward mark. The best part was listening to the old school heal the boat hard in light air crowd look at me and ask each other what the hell I was doing. What they failed to understand was I was kicking ass. The next light air day you would not believe all the people trying to heal to windward and the bodies sitting in front of the dagger board upwind. Unfortunately that trick only worked once and my 200 pound got bumped back to the middle of the fleet!

[Prouda my Pickle Dish]

Two moves I cannot forget

1. Light air (4-6) totally mistimed the start on a Beer can race. OCS by perhaps 8 seconds. Squeezed on both sides by legitimate starters. {Pinched and waited till third row went by. Bore off and ducked the line, gybed and went off on Port. Steady non-oscillating breeze began to go right just after crossing R/C's anchor line.

Took the header down for a minute as wind continued to veer. Tacked and crossed the fleet by a hundred yards. Finished first. We sailed well but the shift was pure fucking luck.

2. Mentor I sailed with entered his Farr 30 in my first "overnight" race in recently acquired CF27. He got the start and for the next 20-some mile spinnaker run I ground him down and dove for the inside at the gybe mark circle. Then we were just 50 yards to the finish line. We finished closely overlapped on a tight spinnaker reach! My bow pulpit just ahead of his. I'll never forget that sound of beep, beep!

[Mr. Unaccountable]

Not so much a "move" but just happens.... being over early, having to go back and re-start, and then managing to be the first boat to the weather mark. Sweet.

[Don]

I can't believe no-one has posted this yet!!!!!!!

WINNING THE RACE.

[chaosmaster]

Another one that I'm pretty proud of, even though it was just a Wednesday night beercan...

Doing well, probably going to win fleet on corrected time but about 1/2 mile from the finish, all the big boats are bearing down on us (broad reach) and will start to blanket our air. I'm in a 30 fter with a 40 fter about to roll us and a 46 fter about to roll him. Just before the 40 fter gets to us, I politely point out to the other skipper that he's about to get rolled by the the guy bearing down on him (I'm such a nice guy!!!) and he should think about proctecting his air.

So the 40fter starts protecting his air ... long story short, all the big guys start taking each other up and we sail cleanly to the finish for the win.

Initially, my skipper was barking at me not to engage with the other boats... he doesn't say that anymore...