Jump to content


Pros Steering


  • Please log in to reply
186 replies to this topic

#1 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:12 PM

Many of you know that SoCal hotshot Billy Hardesty came out and steered #19 on day one of the NOODS. They racked up a 1-2-2, and though we had a better 2-1-1, I think it is safe to say that there are hardly any amateur sailors who could beat him in a straight fight. He's just that much better. Now we hear that another pro and equally good sailor, Willem van Waay is going to be driving a new boat at the Yachting Cup here in Dago. While it doesn't sweat me personally, I am 100% certain that it is not good for the class to have pros steering boats that they do not own. This is nothing against either of these guys, who are really good people, it is about the welfare and direction of the class.

Pros participation is to be encouraged in this class - they can raise the game of the entire boat in a number of roles - coach, trimer, tactics, but having them come on board and just steer, that does nobody any good, other than the owner of the boat, or the pro.

This class needs to quickly and clearly disallow pros from steering, otherwise y'all can can get used to getting your ass kicked when they show up. And they'll show up.

#2 Phil

Phil

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,027 posts
  • Location:SYDNEY AUSTRALIA

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:22 PM

Whats wrong with an 'owner-driver' rule in the class rules?
Nothing, if they like the boat ,tell them to buy one.

#3 JDL

JDL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:46 PM

Outlaw anyone who has ever been a pro of any kind?

But I don't see any clothes.

Scot, getting pros involved at this point is a positive....the hot new class....etc.

You're just stirring.....right?

#4 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:52 PM

No. Pros should not steer, plain and simple. And use the rules from other OD classes that have handled it properly to define who is a pro. It's easy and should happen right away. I

#5 JDL

JDL

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,196 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:57 PM

No. Pros should not steer, plain and simple. And use the rules from other OD classes that have handled it properly to define who is a pro. It's easy and should happen right away. I



Scot,

You were a pro....right?

So, what did you know and when did you stop knowing it?

Promote the class, build numbers, worry about this shit later....

#6 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 08:59 PM

I'm a boat owner and not a pro. End of story. Like I said, pros should be involved on a number of levels, but steering is not one of them. And you do not worry about this later - you deal with it right now so that it does not become an issue.

#7 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 15 April 2007 - 09:03 PM

I'm with the ED on this one.....we can encourage pro's on the boats but driving is an entirely different matter.....this should be added to the agenda for this weeks class association meeting....

#8 J/80 Jibberish

J/80 Jibberish

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 339 posts
  • Location:Sarnia, Ontario
  • Interests:Sailing, Golf, Fishing

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:07 AM

I'm with the Ed. If the pros want to drive, buy a boat.

#9 jibeset

jibeset

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,976 posts
  • Location:Pacific Northwest
  • Interests:Sailing, Fishing, Hunting and anything with ing on the end.

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:10 AM

I am all for supporting a owner/driver rule. Just let us sailmakers and other pro's on board to help out.

jibeset

#10 miltwempley

miltwempley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,042 posts
  • Location:Bainbridge Island, WA

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:15 AM

I'm all about an owner/driver rule. I had a pro on board today (poncho), but I drove all the races. Four bullets. Could we have done as well without him? Maybe... but he helped us tremendously, and never ran the show. It was about coaching and helping the team. We'll all be better racers for it and that will help the class. Wouldn't have been the same to just hand over the tiller... we wouldn't have taken in nearly as much, and this was much more gratifying.

Oh, and thanks Keith -- great two days of racing!

#11 Saylrbouy

Saylrbouy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,410 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:05 AM

Look at the results of any J22 class national or world event in past 10 years. How many pros there in top 3? Something like 2-3 every damn event. How do us smucks at the middle of the pack feel, paying the fees, buying their damn rags, and then having them rub it in year after year....

#12 Gorn FRANTIC!!

Gorn FRANTIC!!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,640 posts
  • Location:Lake Macquarie, Australia

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:25 AM

Write an Owner/Amateur Drive rule into the class rule(as was suggested above), done and dusted, the Syd38 and F40 class havnt suffered as a result of this rule

#13 spectator

spectator

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 683 posts
  • Location:East Coast

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:28 AM

Owner & Amateur Drivers only!

#14 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,846 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:31 AM

The pro's are one of the things that killed the Magic 25 class so early.

#15 tweaker

tweaker

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 425 posts
  • Location:San Diego, CA

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:34 AM

I for one like top competition. If pros want in to drive I say let them in as owners. At least 1/3-1/2 interest. How do you prove it? A copy of the partnership agreement.

What are some of the rules the other fleets have? J-120, 40.7 , etc?

#16 rastus

rastus

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,177 posts
  • Location:On the water near a small town in NZ

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:41 AM

defining what a pro is, is definatly a hard call. Especially when sailing is their job and they want to sail for free or beer.

#17 Adrift

Adrift

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 89 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:55 AM

If the pros want to drive let them buy a boat, the objective of the class is to stay inexpensive so anyone can buy one. At the same time pros should not be discouraged from crewing and coaching on boats so that owners can get up to speed quickly.

The next question is should there be a maximum number of pros allowed on a boat? My response would be no because I like sailing with my buddies and some happen to be pro.

Defining a pro as an ISAF Group 3 competitor.

#18 George Hackett

George Hackett

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,350 posts
  • Location:Manila, Philippines

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:41 AM

i vote for owner drivers. a group 1 sailor can relieve the owner but not take over? and none of this crap about the pro being a part owner of the boat.

#19 Snapper

Snapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,595 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 16 April 2007 - 07:04 AM

What if you're a 'pro' but own a Tiger.

#20 Derek Grebe

Derek Grebe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,647 posts
  • Location:Dubai, UAE

Posted 16 April 2007 - 07:10 AM

What if you're a 'pro' but own a Tiger.


then you are an owner driver.

to quote another in these forums, 'drive on'

#21 Bryce

Bryce

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 458 posts
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:12 AM

Owner driver. Owners like this. Ask anyone who campaigned a Mumm 36 and was encouraged to sit quietly on the rail whilst the pros raced and considered the list of expensive improvement they would like completed before the next event. With ‘Owner Driver’, you just have to put up with the occasional foot on the tiller… not from personal experience of course.

Just for reference, ISAF suggests definitions and classifications on http://www.sailing.o...icationcode.asp just in case there is a confusion of what a Pro is or isn’t. There are other similar definitions (appendix R of RRS). You then need to decide if there will be a limitation of ‘Owner Driver’ AND ‘No Pro’ or not.

What about the number of Pros or Group 3 sailors allowed for an FT10 crew for a OD event?

A humble suggestion having experienced the pain… Either get it sorted and established rules asap or be very tough in policing the rules once established. Formulating rules around what folks are already doing dooms the class to a lopsided failure.

#22 FatimaRules

FatimaRules

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 797 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:36 AM

How about ISAF group 3 can only drive if an owner. If not Group 3, anyone can drive.

It means the group of mates don't have to worry about it, or an inexperienced owner can hand off to a more experienced mate for more intense (dangerous) racing if he wants to, but still enjoy owning and racing it.

#23 CAF

CAF

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 68 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:52 AM

I just wish the Ed would quit blowing his own trumpet with regard to his accomplishments in the FT 10.

With all due respect to the FT10 class and boat, it's still in its infancy and currently lacks any real quality competition.

Jump in a Melges 24 or 32, Etchells, Mumm 30 and I bet you'd eat a bit of humble Pie!!

If the class continues to grow in numbers and strength (which I hope and think it will), the "Pro's" will find their way in one way or another, and the standard WILL rise for better or worse! Whether they are on the helm or somewhere else ultimately doesn't make a difference.

Bit of a conundrum really as wasn't the original brief to design an affordable club racer??!!

I think you're just scared of getting your asses kicked!!

#24 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,451 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:53 AM

I'm 100% with scot on this one. Strict Owner/driver rule is needed. In fact I would go a step further and say only 1 pro on board for a race. It would easy for a deep pocket owner to buy a win by loading up the boat with hired hands. A pro on-board is awesome as a coach, tactician, trimmer, etc. But a whole boatload is buying a win, pure and simple. The point of this class was to keep it affordable. If you want a full on pro class, go buy a Melges 24 or 32.

#25 Riddle of Brasted

Riddle of Brasted

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Rotterdam

Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:03 AM

If I`m correct one of the targets of the Flying Tiger project was to get an affordable class. If pros. are going to enter this class it will mess up that target. I even think the owner/driver rule should apply in more classes or specific regattas to promote race sailing for enthusiastic amateurs.

#26 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:42 AM

What if you're a 'pro' but own a Tiger.


Would that be a real owneship, or a bullshit ownership? Better bring your canceled check...

#27 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:47 AM

I just wish the Ed would quit blowing his own trumpet with regard to his accomplishments in the FT 10.

With all due respect to the FT10 class and boat, it's still in its infancy and currently lacks any real quality competition.

Jump in a Melges 24 or 32, Etchells, Mumm 30 and I bet you'd eat a bit of humble Pie!!

If the class continues to grow in numbers and strength (which I hope and think it will), the "Pro's" will find their way in one way or another, and the standard WILL rise for better or worse! Whether they are on the helm or somewhere else ultimately doesn't make a difference.

Bit of a conundrum really as wasn't the original brief to design an affordable club racer??!!

I think you're just scared of getting your asses kicked!!


Blow me. We won the NOOD overall, which was noteworthy and I think it is cool that we are on a bit of a winning streak, so I mentioned that too. So fucking what. This site has a lot of personal stories and from time to time I tell mine. Start your own site if you don't like it. And you couldn't be more wrong about it making a difference if a pro drives or not - there couldn't be a bigger difference between a pro driving vs. Joe Six Pack.

#28 XPHRFer

XPHRFer

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 696 posts
  • Location:LIS NY

Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:25 PM

Is there any rule in the F-10 class on how many pro's can come along?
Can you bring as many as you want?Obviously if you were a pro and have a bunch of pro's
on board ,you have much better odds than the average joe.If I were a pro or a former pro
against a bunch of club racers(average sailors) you will probably dominate the class,thats just the way it is and hopefully this will bring your level up.

It reminds me of the latest UK ad in the mags commenting on the j-80 class @ KW.
They claim no pros on the first and second place boats?Lifted won the class with Kerry Klinger and his rockstar crew(Kerry is a pro who sells sails in NY).I would say he is a pro,and Rumor is owned by a College sailing coach and a family full of Rock Stars,who are top notch sailors.Not to take anything away from them,but they are in a different class then the average Joe.Kind of like Mark Plough on his 36.7 when he owned it,he never did worst than first for 2 years straight.
This is the way it goes and if you dont like it stay out of one-design.
I dont know what satisfaction pro's get out of beating the average club sailors?

#29 redboat

redboat

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,279 posts
  • Location:Spofford, New Hampshire
  • Interests:none

Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:40 PM

How many classes have owner/driver rules and how many leave it unregulated? Think "smaller" boats leave it open. FT10 seems right on the size?/$$$ line.

#30 huevos rancheros

huevos rancheros

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 83 posts
  • Location:your girlfriend's bed

Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:49 PM

If I were an Owner, I dont know which i would prefer....driving the boat, but having a pro tactician yell at me and tell me what to do, or doing any other job on the boat while the pro drove.

My vote....no pro drivers, max of one Cat 3, or two Cat 2's. Bitch all you want about ISAF's ranking, but its all we have.

#31 StayinStrewn

StayinStrewn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,555 posts
  • Location:Stratford, CT
  • Interests:Sailing, snowboarding, hockey

Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:56 PM

So--if you own a boat or are a partner of say min 25%, no matter what your Pro status is, you could drive....if you don't own or are less than 25%, than no pro at all on the helm...seems to make sense...

SS

#32 TheBoathouse

TheBoathouse

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,575 posts
  • Location:Casco Bay, Maine
  • Interests:Sailing, Skiing, travelling with family, support boat 470 fleet

Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:08 PM

From one of our favorite classes:


CREW/DRIVER

q all crew must be amateurs (ISAF group 1) and can't be paid or receive financial benefit or be related to the sailing industry; exception: 100% owner who is ISAF group 2 or 3 can sail/drive and one certified ISAF group 2 is permitted unless the 100% owner is a group 2 or 3. §§ 3.1-3.9.

q the driver must be at least 1/3 owner (100% if not ISAF group 1) or a ISAF group 1 who is a member of an owner's immediate family or a "long-term shipmate" of an owner. §3.4. LTS must have sailed at least 18 races with the owner and 50% of all sail boat races (other than in dinghies) in which the owner competed in last 24 months and at least 6 race days in last 12 months. §3.5..

#33 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:47 PM

That is a bit of a stretch, to be sure. I though, am a boat owner....

#34 AECMX

AECMX

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 348 posts
  • Location:Red Lodge, MT

Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:48 PM

If the owner/driver is an amateur and if you load the boat up with professional crew, how does that save costs? Let's see... 6 paid crew at an average of $500/day, that's $3000/day whether you win/loose or don't sail because of lack of wind. Now THAT'S an econimical weekend/club racer! ...compared to a TP52.

...how do you prove an amateur driver has a stake in the boat? Does that driver also have to have the same stake in the operation of the boat? sails, regatta expenses and etc? How much stake? 30%? 50%? 51%?

These could all be deal breakers for future owners!

#35 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:03 PM

Nobody suggested allowing a boat full of pros would be a good thing. One maybe two at the most.

#36 Snapper

Snapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,595 posts
  • Location:San Diego

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:16 PM

Would that be a real owneship, or a bullshit ownership? Better bring your canceled check...


From what I saw this weekend you could use some competition. See you at Yachting Cup.

#37 Rapscallion

Rapscallion

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,627 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:18 PM

Look at the results of any J22 class national or world event in past 10 years. How many pros there in top 3? Something like 2-3 every damn event. How do us smucks at the middle of the pack feel, paying the fees, buying their damn rags, and then having them rub it in year after year....



It would be a bummer to see that happen to the FT-10. The pros steering kinda fly in the face of what the tiger is all about. Let the pros duke it out in the Melges 32 class while the boat owners ride the rail to glory!

#38 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:20 PM

From what I saw this weekend you could use some competition. See you at Yachting Cup.


We are not winning by much, so I think you'll find us pretty easy to beat. I'm just enjoying the winning while it lasts.....

#39 PeterHuston

PeterHuston

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,204 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:42 PM

Here's Dave Ullman's take on this subject....from 1986...

From Sailing World, November 1986


Get the Pros Out of Racing
Interview of Dave Ullman by John Burnham
(This interview appeared in Sailing World's November 1986 issue.)
Sailing World: Why do you want "professionals" banned from racing?

Dave Ullman: People in the industry -- the professionals--are hurting the sport of yacht racing. To win on a bigger boat you need somebody with a lot of expertise to sail your boat. So you find sailmakers, yacht designers, etc. But to get them to sail your boat you have to buy new equipment, whether you need it or not.

In the long run that kills the sport for a couple reasons: 1) There are only so many good sailors in the industry--there's only X amount of talent--and if you can't get one of those good people you probably don't have a chance of winning; 2) it takes the fun out of it for owners; they pay the bills and don't race their own boats. People who want to race their boats get out of the sport because they don't have a chance of winning. I know a lot of people who have quit sailing because they didn't think they had a chance to win.

We need to ban industry people; we need to exclude them from normal weekend sailing, one-design sailing except Olympic classes, from MORC sailing totally--I don't mean just driving, I mean off the boats entirely. And we need to ban them from IOR events, except for a professional division. Hell, right now there are people like myself sailing PHRF weekends in Newport (Calif.). That's absurd.

SW: Is that because a customer has asked you to sail with him and that represents a "sale"?

DU: It's strictly a defensive move. "Joe Blow has got Sam the Sailmaker with him this weekend; you've got to come along because I usually beat Joe. Could you come sail with me this weekend?" Rather than keeping both of us off the boats. But the only way that we'll all be kept off is through legislation. It's never going to happen voluntarily. The customers want to win and the sailmakers want to sell sails. Or the boat designers want to sell boats. And it's no better having me sit next to the customer saying, "Up, down, up, down." A lot of people say, "Maybe the professional should still be on the boat to help us sail the boat." I say he should be on board Friday, not on the weekends.

SW: Many people will say that racing with professional sailors, usually the best sailors, improves people's learning curves. They enjoy competing against the best. That's why many one-design classes won't legislate them out.

DU: I think that's garbage. I think we can do much more to help somebody on Friday, on his boat with his crew, than we can by racing his boat around the course. We don't help them by racing. That's an excuse we use, and it's an excuse used by people who like to win with us on board their boats. I don't think it's healthy for the sport, and I don't think it's a valid excuse.

I do clinics sometimes for customers on a Friday with their whole crew--I can do so much more for them in one day on the water than I can racing with them all the weekends of the year. When you're racing you can't teach them that much because you're in the fight of the race. I really think the owners would have a much, much better time sailing their own boats, and there would be many, many more doing it. Then have a separate professional division.

SW: A division exclusively for professionals?

DU: I'm not saying that amateurs couldn't race in the pro division like in any other professional-amateur sport. Any amateur can play at Wimbledon anytime if he can qualify. Have a pro division and then let the amateurs sail in it if they want to test themselves.

SW: The RORC is doing something similar to this in England right now, with an open pro-type division and an amateur division. But I don't know if professionals are strictly excluded from the second division.

DU: They're not, and they should be. Where you need to put the pros is in a professional division or in Olympic-class boats. Let them sail in that arena. Let that arena have corporate sponsorship to pay for it. Open it up to advertising so money is not problem. Have a professional division for the pros, and then get the amateur division back for people sailing their own boats -- weekend sailors where they belong.


Should professionals be legislated out by the USYRU?
DU: Have to be. It cannot be on a voluntary basis because people won't do it on their honor.
SW: An organization such as MORC could do it on their own.

DU: Some have done it. And some one-design classes have already done it. In the Catalina 22 class, which is the biggest one-design class in the U.S. right now, a professional can't be on board the boat. It's in their by-laws, and it's right.

SW: In the Express 27 class they have what's become a fairly prestigious award for owner-driven boats, but all the boats are on the same starting line together.

DU: I think that's a half-baked step. Why have professionals out there at all? What good do people like myself do out there? They don't do any good at all.

Let's put a division between amateur and professional like every other sport. When was the last time a club amateur had to go out and play golf versus Jack Nicklaus in a club tournament? I mean that's what we're talking about. and so what's he do -- he hires Arnold Palmer to go out and play against Jack Nicklaus under his name. You've got to do something to discourage that. Having someone like Greg Fisher or myself come in to a one-design regatta is the same thing as Arnold Palmer going to some weekend golf tournament in east Georgia and teeing it up and playing. We're doing one-designs no favors.

We should be selling our sails by helping the customer rather than going out and beating him. We should be spending more time teaching, more time working with the customer rather than going out and pounding on him. I don't care how you sugar coat it, that's what we do, right? We go out and pound regattas, beat them up to sell our sails. I consider myself pretty good at it. That's the truth to it.

Some way we have to get around that, and I'm real open to any ideas anybody has. I think it has to happen. This came up about six years ago, and I didn't think much of it because the sport was healthy; or it was just starting to do its nose dive.


What if we kick out the pros and then Dave Ullman goes to work outside of sailing?
DU: I'm an amateur again.
SW: As long as you're not actively pursuing a business in the marine industry.

DU: Right, You know, my expertise gets so much better because I sail so much now. My expertise isn't better because I was born better. It's because that's all I do now -- sail. Well, that's an unfair advantage.

SW: How many days do you sail in a year?

DU: Actually go out in a boat? Over 200.

SW: How many days are you racing?

DU: Since the first of the year, I've had four weekend days that I didn't go out and race.

SW: How many week-long regattas have you been to?

DU: Eight or ten. The only people spending more time sailing than I am are the 12-Meter guys. That's unfair going out against weekend guys. I'm deriving my livelihood by sailing boats.


There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Dave Ullman is a professional. But what would be the broad definition?
DU: Anybody who derives their livelihood through sailing is a professional. Yacht designers, sailmakers, boat brokers, on down the line. Anybody who's in the marine industry, to me, is a professional. That would be the strictest interpretation of what I'd like to see. In the long run a lot of the people who now come into sailmaking or other fields because they like to race boats would get regular jobs and stay out of the industry. That would help lower the price of sails because you'd have people in the industry really working as workers, not sailors. You don't hire a guy in the assembly line at GM because he wants to be a race car driver. That's what we're talking about, right?
SW: You're talking about factory teams.

DU: In the skiing industry you don't hire guys that make skis -- the guys that make skis for Kneisel aren't downhill racers. They're manufacturing people. That alone will lower the price of the product.

SW: Going back to the definition, inevitably there are going to be grey areas.

DU: Yes, and there are going to be some people hurt by this. But you're talking about only a handful, I think. If the sport thrives, and a handful get hurt, that's OK. There's going to be some crying, but I think you're talking about only a couple hundred people that could potentially get hurt for potentially bringing the sport back. Maybe I see it not as it is, but every time I bring this up people applaud me. I think the reception out there would be very good with only a few voices dissenting.

SW: Let's say you own a boat shop. You're in the marine industry. But you have to work on the weekends too.

DU: As you say, it's marginal. I don't know how you treat that one.

SW: Or a marine hardware wholesaler, who works five days a week and races on weekends.

DU: If he doesn't race with people he sells his products to then maybe he'd be an amateur. I don't know how you would treat the fine lines, but if I had my way, the fine lines would be too deep, not too thin. I'd rather hurt a few people to benefit the majority. I'd rather not see this thing fall on its face because there are some loopholes.

SW: I suppose like changing a tax law -- there would be a scramble.

DU: There's going to be people filibustering to stay in when they're kind of on the edge, but if I had my way I'd just chop it in a straight line and say that anybody in the industry would be out. And sure, the wholesale distributor who isn't a red hot racer would probably be hurt. But if amateur racing is that important to him he'd get into another business.

SW: If you develop a thriving professional circuit, you might then attract people into it who are interested in racing for their livelihood.

DU: Absolutely, but these people wouldn't be in the industry, they'd be professional racers. That's a bonus. If this whole thing happens why shouldn't somebody with very good talent, someone like Dave Curtis, actually be able to make a living sailing? A Jack Nicklaus of sailing ought to be able to make a living sailing, and not have to make sails or be in the marine industry.

SW: Do you think there is a kind of racing that could make money as a professional sport, some kind of photogenic or media-oriented sailing -- you think it would be good or bad for the image of the sport?

DU: I think it would be good for the image of sailing because I think its image now is very bad. Yachting to non-racing people is a very snooty upper-class yacht-club-oriented sport, which keeps people out of the sport. I think it would be good for the sport to have an image of grand prix flat-out racing like Indy-car racing. I think that would be very, very, very good. It would be a by-product of what we're talking about. It would force a lot of people into that arena, and you'd have no trouble getting corporate sponsorship for it to pay the bills if they can advertise. Obviously that end of it would be hands off: Why shouldn't IBM be able to put IBM across the sail if they're paying the bill?

Look at IOR now: It's so expensive that only a handful of people in the world can properly play the game. The whole thing is falling on its face because it's too expensive. A lot of corporations or individuals could afford it if they could put the name of a company on it and write it off. Why not let them? Why not have one IOR division be professional and have the second division of IOR be amateur have the Olympics be open and have some professional 40-foot unlimited-type catamaran class and stuff like that?

SW: Do you think IOR would hold up?

DU: I think IOR would not only hold up but thrive. I think IOR right now is in its death throes. The numbers are decreasing extremely fast. I think two divisions of IOR would be a good deal; a corporate division with big bucks and a weekend division with the local guy sailing his own boat -- maybe it wouldn't even be IOR, but it would be handicap racing that isn't arbitrary handicap like PH. The rule doesn't matter; it's the people out participating.

SW: So you think in big boat sailing it will just be a couple of years until one way or another there is essentially going to be a commercial division.

DU: It's already happened in Europe. USYRU is very conservative and slow and it hasn't happened here yet, but the pressure will make them do it eventually. I'm really of the opinion that if we don't do something pretty soon, there's going to be no sport left. I think it's to that point. I see it every day -- I make my living counting the numbers. This is all going to collapse on its face if we don't do something, and I think this professional deal is really the right way to do it. I feel awfully strong about it. I think the more people participating, the better off we all are.


Would one of the results of banning the pros be that most sailors would end up sailing lower-tech boats?
DU: I hope so, because the pressure now to build all these good high-tech boats is not coming from the owners. It's coming from the people who are putting the projects together -- the sailmakers, the yacht designers. Most of the owners wouldn't know the difference. Without us you'd see more racing production boats, less high-tech, less extreme high tech.
SW: Isn't there a danger we'd end up with a case of the rich getting richer? The wealthy owner would still be in the driver's seat, could buy the most sophisticated boats, and buy talent -- people not in the industry but very good sailors -- and still have professional-type efforts.

DU: You're going to have that to some degree, but I think far less because right now these projects are all being put together by people like myself who really know what's good and what's bad. The average college kid won't have the time to spend to really put a project together -- he might step on board to race it after the owner has put it together; but I think more often you'll see owners driving their own boats. And once in a while there will be a couple of owners who happen to be very good sailors and will do really well -- that's fine.

SW: Looking at the MORC Internationals, can you give us some specifics about what might happen with the costs if the pros weren't here?

DU: Let's look at our 27-foot MORC boat. We had a Kevlar/Mylar main, three No. 1s, a 2 and a 3, three spinnakers -- about $14,000 worth of sails. That's absurd. There's no reason why these boats shouldn't have a $5,000 inventory: They should have a Dacron main, Mylar No. 1 and No. 3 and two spinnakers.

And our boat probably cost $40,000. It's a baked boat -- pre-peg and cored construction. Should not have been allowed. They ought to be fiberglass boats and cost $15,000 or $20,000 retail. Then you'd have a $25,000 26-foot MORC boat. You could have a lot of people out racing if that were the upper limit.

But we'd need legislation. We'd need restrictions on the production of boats and materials in sails -- anything to reduce the cost of the product to get more people out sailing.

SW: Yet as a sailor who's seen the development of all the fancy equipment, all the lines, the sails, don't you find the boats more interesting to sail today?

DU: No, no. Not particularly. The development of the sails -- like all the Kevlar mains at this regatta -- doesn't make the sailing any better at all -- it just makes it more expensive. It makes the boats one or two percent faster, but so what? What's the difference if you're going across the bottom at 6.0 knots or 6.1? It doesn't change the sport, it just adds an extreme amount of cost to the sport; it doubles the cost of the sport for one-tenth of a knot.

These boats ought to have all Dacron sails, or certainly Dacron mains and maybe Mylar jibs -- no Kevlar at all -- and they ought to have half the number of sails, and they should not have any exotic construction. They all ought to be straight fiberglass, and cost half as much. A $90,000 MORC boat is absolutely absurd. And the pressure comes from us, not the owners. The owners come to us and say, "We want to win, what's it going to take?" and then we lay out a program for them.

SW: And you try to make it a little bit better than the last one.

DU: Yeah, just accelerate a little more because we want to win to sell our products. I should be pushing my product in a professional arena like Pennzoil pushes it against somebody else in Indy, and then I should be doing everything possible from an educational standpoint to be helping the average sailor.

What I'd really like is to see the numbers increase to what they used to be. I used to have a very thriving business because there were once 10 times as many people out racing sailboats as there are now. I don't think those numbers are that far off. You look in the back of your magazine at the national championships, and some of those only have 8, 10, 15 boats. They used to have 50 to 100 boats in all of those classes. I mean a bad regatta in the old days was 30 or 40 boats for a nationals. Now the best ones have 30 or 40, right?

I'm not saying that this is the whole problem with the sport; but I think that the USYRU and the powers that be in the sport must face up to the fact that yacht racing -- not sailing -- is in a nose dive, is heading for a brick wall. It's crashing. The numbers are down dramatically, and anybody who says any different is looking at isolated cases and has their head in the sand.

#40 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:50 PM

It would be a bummer to see that happen to the FT-10. The pros steering kinda fly in the face of what the tiger is all about. Let the pros duke it out in the Melges 32 class while the boat owners ride the rail to glory!


I totally agree.

There are already plenty of arenas where Pro's can duke it out.

This was supposed to be something different - A CLUB RACER.

to me, that means no Pro's - anywhere. I might agree that allowing one (and only one) pro on board wouldn't be the death of the class, but definitely not as driver.

The average club sailor does not want to have to find a pro to be competitive.

Sure, I understand, you can learn a lot by hiring Pro's to sail with you - if that's important to you, there are plenty of classes that permit it. I could learn a lot if I always skied with a pro too, but i don't do that - it's to expensive, and I prefer to ski with my friends.

nothing would prohibit hiring a pro for practices. I just think that, at least in CLUB classes, when it's time to race, the team lives or dies by its own skills. That's what amateur CLUB LEVEL sailing is all about. I understand that it's not enough for everyone, but I also believe that there are a large number of sailors who want it that way. You may not hear from too many of them here though.

#41 mcscw

mcscw

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 318 posts
  • Location:Midwest USA

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:54 PM

I don't have a problem with pro's driving....I like sailing against them and seeing just how much more room for improvement there is for me.....and I really like every now and then when I can beat them in a race.

That said, what I completely disagree with is them taking all the pickle dishes.....

In the one od class I sailed in ....early through late 90's.... had it set so that the pro's were scored seperately, and the amatuers (the ones shelling $$$ out of their own pocket) collected the hardware.....that rule has since been removed....and now it does suck when the factory reps come in and clean house.

#42 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:54 PM

I may not be the right person to chime in on this as I am a Cat 3. Where does it stop while I get paid to sail it is not my primary form of income. I sail often without getting paid. Unfortunately for me most of my friends are also Cat 3's in one capacity or another so I can't sail with my friends and that sucks. Perhaps this is more directed at the no pros on the boat comment than the owner driver.

I would also ask Ed what is your status? You derive your income or a fair amount of it by running the most popular sailing web site in the world. Does this make you a Cat 2? I mean your position affords you the ability to recieve free or discounted goods from advertisers. This must aid the performance of the boat right? I would also argue that your position allows you to find crew who are above the level of your fellow competitors wether its because they want to sail with the "Ed" or that it could be good publicity for an up and coming pro. Is this fair? So if there is only one pro allowed on board is that you?

Don't turn this into a J105 class. I don't own a boat or even sail on an FT10 so my opinion really means nothing. I find it funny that pros are almost vilified by most classes as the grim reaper of competitive sailing. I personally believe in owner/driver I think it keeps people in the sport and having fun. I also believe that pros make for a more comptitive fleet with less bullshit protests and collisions. Don't limit the number of pros just practice, tune and bring your A game and you can be competitive with boat of pros who have never sailed the boat. If you keep pros out because your afraid they will make someone too fast then if you win it it's like that saying about arguing on the internet..

Flame away as I'm sure I will get tooled for being a money grubbing pro who doesn't even own a boat or buy sails or what ever. I think people often forget how people become pros. They become pros by donating tens of thousands of hours to sailing practicing, studing and racing from the time thay are 8-10 years old and almost everyday after. Anytime you dedicate yourself completely to something in your life you give up other things.

#43 Peacefrog

Peacefrog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,422 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:02 PM

Being a pro, I would say that one of the best rules out there is the MUMM 30 rule. As a pro, if I could afford to buy a MUMM or a set know amount of a MUMM then I could drive. It does not change the amount of Cat 3's that can sail, it just allows a pro owner.

Look at Dave Irish and back when Mark Ploch, JB Braun owned boats.

#44 Peacefrog

Peacefrog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,422 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:06 PM

I bet the Ed makes more of his income as a radio douche then a web master!

Also the ISAF #'s are fucking joke!!!!! there are Cat 1 sailors making more money per day then I do!!!!!!!!!!! It is a bullshit program. There are a lot of owners/Cat 1's that are breaking the intent of the rule. But at the same time ISAF is to fucking stupid to make a proper decision.

I have a buddy who just reapplied for status. Told the people the truth, that he gets paid to drive boats around, set boats up (that he does not race on), and gets a fucking per diem to sail from owners.

ISAF gave him a Cat 1??? WTF?

#45 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:08 PM

I agree the whole ISAF thing is a joke. I'm just trying to open some discussion that might make the OP uncomfortable ;) I do feel that way with regard to no pros I thinkits stupid and bad for the class.

#46 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:09 PM

I have no idea what my status is, but if classified like that, I would find it prhibitive. I like to bring my sailmaker from time to time, so perhaps for selfish reasons, two pros on board makes sense? I think The intent here is to not have hired guns come in and drive boats that they do not own. As I said, pros on board helps, just not driving.

#47 TEXBOB

TEXBOB

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:11 PM

We are not winning by much, so I think you'll find us pretty easy to beat. I'm just enjoying the winning while it lasts.....


Scot, Please remind us how the Olson 30 fleet works it.

#48 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:11 PM

As I said I'm with you on the owner driver thing. I find the J 109 to be an interesting study first as many pros as you want, then 1 pro, then 1 pro but he can't be paid and now no pros.

#49 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:17 PM

Scot, Please remind us how the Olson 30 fleet works it.


I don't recall, please share.

#50 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:21 PM

I think the issue at hand (Clewless please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it was merely an oversight not to have the owner / driver rule written into the class rules at this point. I don't believe it was actually intended to allow pro's (as non-owners) to be driving the boat

#51 nespresso

nespresso

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 47 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:27 PM

Give the class a little time to settle in before you start trying to exclude people. Yes, it's no fun finishing behind a hot shot crewed boat. BUT, that hot shot crew is going to show everyone what the boat is capable of doing. Clearly from watching Saturday's OD races, you could tell that there was a wide variety of abilities on the boats. The Ed's crew clearly was the most polished. The sails varied from OEM's to the latest new models being promoted. Hopefully the six FT owner's are sharing information about what does and doesn't work on the boat. The FT's sure looked good ripping through the water while finishing the last race on Saturday. 007 is leaving town. Too bad, they seemed to be the most improved.

Yachting Cup will bring out the pro's and more new sails. Rumor has it, that North will be joining the crowd. Is North designing 3DL's for the FT?

#52 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:32 PM

Give the class a little time to settle in before you start trying to exclude people. Yes, it's no fun finishing behind a hot shot crewed boat. BUT, that hot shot crew is going to show everyone what the boat is capable of doing. Clearly from watching Saturday's OD races, you could tell that there was a wide variety of abilities on the boats. The Ed's crew clearly was the most polished. The sails varied from OEM's to the latest new models being promoted. Hopefully the six FT owner's are sharing information about what does and doesn't work on the boat. The FT's sure looked good ripping through the water while finishing the last race on Saturday. 007 is leaving town. Too bad, they seemed to be the most improved.

Yachting Cup will bring out the pro's and more new sails. Rumor has it, that North will be joining the crowd. Is North designing 3DL's for the FT?


Yes..........

FT10 Sails

#53 StayinStrewn

StayinStrewn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,555 posts
  • Location:Stratford, CT
  • Interests:Sailing, snowboarding, hockey

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:33 PM

i think it was mentioned a few months ago that North was building sails for the FT...there is a page for the FT on their OD site...North Sails FT 10M

#54 TEXBOB

TEXBOB

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:33 PM

I don't recall, please share.

The Olson 30 clas rules allow a non-owner to drive but they for a class within a class at the National Championship. They big perpetual trophy will still go to the top boat, owner driver or not. Along comes a sailmaker and takes the cup. Bad for the fleet? Yes. Good for the compitition? Yes. This happened 3 times with the same pro. To see the owner of that boat walking around with the cup made me want to hurl. FT class should not let this happen. I am a partner in FT hull 63. I am currently scraping up the cash to become a legatimate partner. I will start by paying Quantum for the first set of sails, 10k or so much to my wifes protest.

#55 StayinStrewn

StayinStrewn

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,555 posts
  • Location:Stratford, CT
  • Interests:Sailing, snowboarding, hockey

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:34 PM

beat me to it EWS!!

#56 d'ranger

d'ranger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,342 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:37 PM

Don't have the rules to hand but the J80 class has an owner/driver rule that works very well. Locally Jay Lutz and John Kolius do and or have owned boats. They normally only show up for big events. At regional/national events they don't always win - see last years Worlds where Darden beat Kolius/Quatum. Yeah, Darden isn't your average amateur and he had a great crew including a pro but who wants to compete in a world event that isn't that level?

In my opinion the only thing that should be banned is actually paying people to race with you (besides the owner/driver rule).

#57 Jax_Sailor

Jax_Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:44 PM

I always get a kick out of reading peoples thoughts about racing with pros in one-design classes. It seems most people don't want to race against a pro because that feel they don't have a chance to beat them. Is winning a trophy the most important thing, or is getting better the goal? If it's about winning a trophy, then save a ton of money and go buy yourself a nice piece of silver or a big flag you and fly from your mast that tells everyone how good you are! I enjoy racing against the best sailors around. If they are pros, so be it. I don't always win, but when I do I feel like I acomplished something I set out to do. The people who know me know I started out as a middle of the pack sailor, but after YEARS of hard work and asking tons of questions the results started to show. That is why I race sailboats. If it was easy then everybody would do it.

#58 Peacefrog

Peacefrog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,422 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:51 PM

I always get a kick out of reading peoples thoughts about racing with pros in one-design classes. It seems most people don't want to race against a pro because that feel they don't have a chance to beat them. Is winning a trophy the most important thing, or is getting better the goal? If it's about winning a trophy, then save a ton of money and go buy yourself a nice piece of silver or a big flag you and fly from your mast that tells everyone how good you are! I enjoy racing against the best sailors around. If they are pros, so be it. I don't always win, but when I do I feel like I acomplished something I set out to do. The people who know me know I started out as a middle of the pack sailor, but after YEARS of hard work and asking tons of questions the results started to show. That is why I race sailboats. If it was easy then everybody would do it.


Can I hear an AMEN!

Preach on brother preach on.

#59 Clewless

Clewless

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,724 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:54 PM

WTF! Close to 60 posts on the topic and not a single person has bothered to take a look at the rules in print.

C.2 CREW
C.2.1 LIMITATIONS
a Paid crew shall not be allowed.
b A Crew may contain a maximum of one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor except for National or Class-designated Championship events.
c A Crew shall contain zero (0) ISAF Group 3 sailors at a National or Class-designated Championship event with the exception that one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor shall be permitted if and only if he/she is the owner of the Boat


The intention for the above was to allow coaching at the local level only and be very strict at the national/championship level. This was heavily debated before and is a good basis to work from.

BTW, the rules team welcomes additional inputs & tweaks, just please don't start from scratch.

Clew

#60 Editor

Editor

    Anarchist

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,669 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:06 PM

I always get a kick out of reading peoples thoughts about racing with pros in one-design classes. It seems most people don't want to race against a pro because that feel they don't have a chance to beat them. Is winning a trophy the most important thing, or is getting better the goal? If it's about winning a trophy, then save a ton of money and go buy yourself a nice piece of silver or a big flag you and fly from your mast that tells everyone how good you are! I enjoy racing against the best sailors around. If they are pros, so be it. I don't always win, but when I do I feel like I acomplished something I set out to do. The people who know me know I started out as a middle of the pack sailor, but after YEARS of hard work and asking tons of questions the results started to show. That is why I race sailboats. If it was easy then everybody would do it.


Bullshit. Pros steering boats they don't own helps no one get better. They are going to beat the average guy virtually every time. Pros should be on board to make you better, and them steering your boat doesn't make you better.

#61 Craic

Craic

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,498 posts
  • Location:San Diego, CA
  • Interests:My J35 named Craic. Pronounced "Crack", it is the Gaelic word for fun and good times.

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:07 PM

Thank you clewless. I was wondering if the 6 months of late night calls and work some of us did in the beginning had gone to shit.

The intent from the beginning was Owner Driver Rule. If a Pro wanted to drive then buy a boat. Pros were to be allowed as crew/coach but not on National Championships. That's it, pretty fucking simple.

#62 bluekiwi

bluekiwi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Location:Edgewater Yacht Club, Cleveland, Ohio
  • Interests:J-22, J-105, Jet-14, J-24

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:21 PM

Look at the results of any J22 class national or world event in past 10 years. How many pros there in top 3? Something like 2-3 every damn event. How do us smucks at the middle of the pack feel, paying the fees, buying their damn rags, and then having them rub it in year after year....


...and how many of those pros step up at every regatta and provide coaching, tips, assist with boat tuning, etc? ALL OF THEM. I'd rather have access to this knowledge so I can get better faster than play around with a bunch of amateur hacks like in the J105 fleet.

At the end of the day it comes down to why you're in sailing. Is it because you enjoy being out on the water can testing yourself against the best competition, or is it because you absolutely must come first in order to feel important? To me it seems like this discussion is more about the latter.

#63 d'ranger

d'ranger

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,342 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:21 PM

nothing like posting the rules to ruin a perfectly good argument....... :D

#64 bluekiwi

bluekiwi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Location:Edgewater Yacht Club, Cleveland, Ohio
  • Interests:J-22, J-105, Jet-14, J-24

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:26 PM

nothing would prohibit hiring a pro for practices. I just think that, at least in CLUB classes, when it's time to race, the team lives or dies by its own skills. That's what amateur CLUB LEVEL sailing is all about. I understand that it's not enough for everyone, but I also believe that there are a large number of sailors who want it that way. You may not hear from too many of them here though.


Excellent idea. Seems to me that having anything other than fully open or fully closed to pros is just asking for trouble. The posts have highlighted many of the issues with a "pros allowed sometimes" policy -- stacking the crew positions, having a pro tactician, having a "partial" owner, etc. The spirit of this class says NO PROS ALLOWED.

#65 huevos rancheros

huevos rancheros

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 83 posts
  • Location:your girlfriend's bed

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:31 PM

I like the Ullman suggestion from 1986. Pretty amazing that 20 years later and were still dealing with the same crap. A pro circuit that is open to qualifying amateurs is ideal. I especially liked Ullman's discussion on Kevlar sails and other costs.

#66 bluekiwi

bluekiwi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Location:Edgewater Yacht Club, Cleveland, Ohio
  • Interests:J-22, J-105, Jet-14, J-24

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:34 PM

I think The intent here is to not have hired guns come in and drive boats that they do not own. As I said, pros on board helps, just not driving.


For the sake of argument, why??? Don't you think a pro tactician will have a greater positive impact on a boat's race performance vs. a pro helm? Or are you assuming the pro helm will pull double duty???

#67 Midlife Crisis

Midlife Crisis

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 83 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:34 PM

I thought FT10s were supposed to be an affordable solution.

If people start loading their boats with pros, then affordability goes out the window.

Owner driver makes sense.

Nobody else on board should be getting any compensation for being there.

#68 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,989 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:05 PM

Thank you clewless. I was wondering if the 6 months of late night calls and work some of us did in the beginning had gone to shit.

The intent from the beginning was Owner Driver Rule. If a Pro wanted to drive then buy a boat. Pros were to be allowed as crew/coach but not on National Championships. That's it, pretty fucking simple.



Craic/Clew,

Intent is an odd thing in that what's written may not reflect the intent.

Sorry if I am dense but how does this...

C.2 CREW
C.2.1 LIMITATIONS
a Paid crew shall not be allowed.
b A Crew may contain a maximum of one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor except for National or Class-designated Championship events.
c A Crew shall contain zero (0) ISAF Group 3 sailors at a National or Class-designated Championship event with the exception that one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor shall be permitted if and only if he/she is the owner of the Boat


... stop the ISAF Group 3 sailor from driving except at National or Championmship events?

Is there other language that differentiate crew from driver?

Also, with the language you have, what excludes other pros that are not Group 3? What language stops them from being aboard and/or driving?

Not trying to be an ass, just not seeing it in what you posted.

I was frostbiting a Laser this winter and the cold may have effected what few braincells I have. I mean I tried to hire a driver for my Laser but it did not have the desired effect :blink: :unsure: :P when it came time to hand out the silver!

Wess

#69 Jackson

Jackson

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:13 PM

WTF! Close to 60 posts on the topic and not a single person has bothered to take a look at the rules in print.

C.2 CREW
C.2.1 LIMITATIONS
a Paid crew shall not be allowed.
b A Crew may contain a maximum of one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor except for National or Class-designated Championship events.
c A Crew shall contain zero (0) ISAF Group 3 sailors at a National or Class-designated Championship event with the exception that one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor shall be permitted if and only if he/she is the owner of the Boat


The intention for the above was to allow coaching at the local level only and be very strict at the national/championship level. This was heavily debated before and is a good basis to work from.

BTW, the rules team welcomes additional inputs & tweaks, just please don't start from scratch.

Clew


Clew,

The only thing missing is the Owner/Driver Rule. Hopefully this will get taken care of at the next class rules meeting. Most people don't buy these boats to have a pro-drive them, but some just might want to win enough to do so. It would be a shame if the average sailor felt he needed to get a pro to drive just to be competitive (because the top boats all had pros driving). That would certainly kill the class for me as my idea isn't to write checks and ride the rail. Non Owner Pro's should bring the coaching and tactics but keep their hands off the tiller.

John

#70 JBSF

JBSF

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 31,451 posts
  • Interests:Racing, diving, cycling, flying, pussy, shooting and any other action sports.

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:37 PM

SW: Many people will say that racing with professional sailors, usually the best sailors, improves people's learning curves. They enjoy competing against the best. That's why many one-design classes won't legislate them out.

DU: I think that's garbage. I think we can do much more to help somebody on Friday, on his boat with his crew, than we can by racing his boat around the course. We don't help them by racing. That's an excuse we use, and it's an excuse used by people who like to win with us on board their boats. I don't think it's healthy for the sport, and I don't think it's a valid excuse.

I do clinics sometimes for customers on a Friday with their whole crew--I can do so much more for them in one day on the water than I can racing with them all the weekends of the year. When you're racing you can't teach them that much because you're in the fight of the race. I really think the owners would have a much, much better time sailing their own boats, and there would be many, many more doing it. Then have a separate professional division.

SW: A division exclusively for professionals?

DU: I'm not saying that amateurs couldn't race in the pro division like in any other professional-amateur sport. Any amateur can play at Wimbledon anytime if he can qualify. Have a pro division and then let the amateurs sail in it if they want to test themselves.


I've been saying this exact thing for YEARS now on SA. If crews want pros to "help their learning curve" then fracking hire them as a coach and go out on a weeknight or off weekend and practice with the coach. The sport of sailing needs more coaches and less hired guns to win silver pickle dishes!

#71 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:45 PM

Sorry if I am dense but how does this...

C.2 CREW
C.2.1 LIMITATIONS
a Paid crew shall not be allowed.
b A Crew may contain a maximum of one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor except for National or Class-designated Championship events.
c A Crew shall contain zero (0) ISAF Group 3 sailors at a National or Class-designated Championship event with the exception that one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor shall be permitted if and only if he/she is the owner of the Boat


... stop the ISAF Group 3 sailor from driving except at National or Championmship events?


This seems adequate to me. I wouldn't want to prohibit having a pro on board so long as they were not being paid and it was not a championship event. We want to encourage sailmakers to get actively involved in the fleet, but don't want them to use the fleet as a way to collect championships to burnish their resume. This seems to do the job.

One possible weakness is that it doesn't prohibit someone putting together a full team of Cat 2 sailors.

I don't think it is worth separating driving from other roles on the boat. Frankly, having a pro on board to call the start, tactics, and trim provides almosts all of the benefits of having them drive.

You might need to deal with charter boats explicitly. I think you should allow charterers to be considered owners so long as they are not also Cat 3 sailors. For instance, a good Melges 32 team without pros should be encouraged to charter a FT10 for championships.

#72 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:45 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Jeff B @ Apr 16 2007, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've been saying this exact thing for YEARS now on SA. If crews want pros to "help their learning curve" then fracking hire them as a coach and go out on a weeknight or off weekend and practice with the coach. The sport of sailing needs more coaches and less hired guns to win silver pickle dishes![/quote]

exactly.....or have them out on a phrf pickle-dish race to drive for you and show you how it's done so you can beat up on some Cal 20's while improving your game (if your local phrf rules allow to do so)

#73 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,989 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:46 PM

But you have to let Mr. Perry drive any boat he wants any time he wants.

I mean fair is fair.

#74 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:50 PM

The only thing missing is the Owner/Driver Rule. Hopefully this will get taken care of at the next class rules meeting. Most people don't buy these boats to have a pro-drive them, but some just might want to win enough to do so. It would be a shame if the average sailor felt he needed to get a pro to drive just to be competitive (because the top boats all had pros driving). That would certainly kill the class for me as my idea isn't to write checks and ride the rail. Non Owner Pro's should bring the coaching and tactics but keep their hands off the tiller



Why would a pro regularly drive a boat if (a.) he wasn't getting paid, (b.) he wasn't the owner, and (c.) he couldn't win a championship to add to his resume? Remember that you cannot just "get a pro to drive" at any class sanctioned event because you are never allowed to PAY any crew members.

#75 Wess

Wess

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,989 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:57 PM

Why would a pro regularly drive a boat if (a.) he wasn't getting paid, (b.) he wasn't the owner, and (c.) he couldn't win a championship to add to his resume? Remember that you cannot just "get a pro to drive" at any class sanctioned event because you are never allowed to PAY any crew members.

Because you bought his sails, or his etc...

Or because you got him a job at ABC...

#76 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:58 PM

Here's my take on it........there's a way to show you how it's done..............and there's a way to show you how to do it.....................

Having pro's driving for owners does nothing towards improving "your" game it just shows you how off pace you really are. Now having them aboard helping with tacticks.....giving suggestions, giving tips and pointers to the crew this is how people learn and improve their game.............do you expect to be a student while the guy is driving your own boat for you? Hell no....he's going to tell you to put a sock in your mouth stop asking so many questions......get your ass out on the rail.....and hike bitch.........

#77 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:05 PM

Here's my take on it........there's a way to show you how it's done..............and there's a way to show you how to do it.....................

Having pro's driving for owners does nothing towards improving "your" game it just shows you how off pace you really are. Now having them aboard helping with tacticks.....giving suggestions, giving tips and pointers to the crew this is how people learn and improve their game.............do you expect to be a student while the guy is driving your own boat for you? Hell no....he's going to tell you to put a sock in your mouth stop asking so many questions......get your ass out on the rail.....and hike bitch.........


It appears the concern in FT10 fleet is that having a pro drive a boat shows off pace the whole fleet is not the boat their sailing on. I suppose its better to sail in a bubble then be exposed to any other level of sailing as long as you get a pickle dish.

#78 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:09 PM

I guess if your going to have an owner driver fleet than there is no alternate helmsman? I still remember an owner in the Farr 40 fleet peeing in the wheel well down wind because the didn't have an alternate helmsman on the boat that day. Suffuce to say he also had to dock the boat as nobody would touch the wheel. If you do allow alternate helmsman then who decides? Is it no cat 3 but any cat 1? To bring up an Ed favorite so does that mean JJ can drive an FT10?

#79 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:11 PM

I always get a kick out of reading peoples thoughts about racing with pros in one-design classes. It seems most people don't want to race against a pro because that feel they don't have a chance to beat them. Is winning a trophy the most important thing, or is getting better the goal?



Actually, In club-level sailing, the primary goal is to HAVE FUN.

Getting better, is clearly a goal, but doesn't outrank the primary goal of having fun. Winning comes behind getting better.

What's fun? at the club-level, it's building A TEAM of friends who enjoy sailing together, and having a beer afterwards. It's not a TEAM of friends, if you pay some one $500 bucks to come out sailing with you.

If you are doing that, AT THE CLUB LEVEL, then the trophy definitely is the most important thing, and you should move beyond club level sailing.

The vast majority of club-level sailors do not want to pay anyone to sail with them, and they would prefer to not sail in a class where that is permitted.

#80 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:14 PM

It appears the concern in FT10 fleet is that having a pro drive a boat shows off pace the whole fleet is not the boat their sailing on. I suppose its better to sail in a bubble then be exposed to any other level of sailing as long as you get a pickle dish.


And your point? I'd rather sail in the smaller bubble with "like" owners that have a day job and cannot commit to sailing 7 days out of the week. So what if I'm off pace with Dave Ullman I'm competitively improving over the other similar owners in the class. You throw a pro into the mix and it does nothing for you other than saying you're offpace vs. a pro. It's like challenging a blind-man to a game of darts. What are you accomplishing?

#81 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:16 PM

Actually, In club-level sailing, the primary goal is to HAVE FUN.

Getting better, is clearly a goal, but doesn't outrank the primary goal of having fun. Winning comes behind getting better.

What's fun? at the club-level, it's building A TEAM of friends who enjoy sailing together, and having a beer afterwards. It's not a TEAM of friends, if you pay some one $500 bucks to come out sailing with you.

If you are doing that, AT THE CLUB LEVEL, then the trophy definitely is the most important thing, and you should move beyond club level sailing.

The vast majority of club-level sailors do not want to pay anyone to sail with them, and they would prefer to not sail in a class where that is permitted.


Wow circular logic lets see winning comes behind getting better buts its not fun if you don't win but you can't get better if you don't sail against good people but good people are often professionals but I don't want to race proffessionals but.. I see this argument for owner driver but not for pros on boats.

#82 fan

fan

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,637 posts
  • Location:San Clemente/Shanghai

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:20 PM

And your point? I'd rather sail in the smaller bubble with "like" owners that have a day job and cannot commit to sailing 7 days out of the week. So what if I'm off pace with Dave Ullman I'm competitively improving over the other similar owners in the class. You throw a pro into the mix and it does nothing for you other than saying you're offpace vs. a pro. It's like challenging a blind-man to a game of darts. What are you accomplishing?


Your statement was that having a pro come drive you boat shows how off the pace you are. If thats the case then why does anyone else in the fleet care if someone wants to gauge their level of sailing. They care because it makes shows where they are. Thats all. As I've said numorous times in this thread I support owner driver classes I think its the way it should be but I do not support banning pros. My point was to show the reality of your statement. Look within grasshopper.

#83 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:24 PM

Your statement was that having a pro come drive you boat shows how off the pace you are. If thats the case then why does anyone else in the fleet care if someone wants to gauge their level of sailing. They care because it makes shows where they are. Thats all. As I've said numorous times in this thread I support owner driver classes I think its the way it should be but I do not support banning pros. My point was to show the reality of your statement. Look within grasshopper.


My comments are purely from the owner driver ruling.........I welcome having a pro aboard as long as they aren't touching the stick

#84 ro!

ro!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,274 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:26 PM

Am I the only one that is seeing some irony here? -the Ed used to be a pro and is not at all reluctant to tell us all how much better he is than most of the SD crowd, is now bringing this up because another pro was driving some one else's boat and beat Anarchy once in a three race regatta- the same Anarchy that has sailed with at least two other pro's on board.
This is in no way a criticism of the Ed -just wondering what is the difference between the driving abilities of the Ed and your average pro.

#85 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:28 PM

Am I the only one that is seeing some irony here? -the Ed used to be a pro and is not at all reluctant to tell us all how much better he is than most of the SD crowd, is now bringing this up because another pro was driving some one else's boat and beat Anarchy once in a three race regatta- the same Anarchy that has sailed with at least two other pro's on board.
This is in no way a criticism of the Ed -just wondering what is the difference between the driving abilities of the Ed and your average pro.


It's called boat ownership.............I don't think anyone is against pro's buying into the class and purchasing their own boats to play in the game....hell that would be awesome

#86 smelly weasel

smelly weasel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,177 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:36 PM

owner / driver
works great
owners get to spend some ching and learn-
crew gets to learn a ton and have some fun sailing with a pro
pro gets to coach on a bunch of different levels, earns his paycheck

and while you're thinking about that, you'll need to now decide on how many pros your going to let on the crew----

good times-
weez


weez

#87 Jambalaya

Jambalaya

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,268 posts
  • Location:UK, South East

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:40 PM

Owner / Driver - restriction on Group 2 and 3 crew members.

The most flexible system would have designated events which are owner driver (eg major champs) and allow non owner driver (perhaps not inc Group 2 or 3?) at other events. With a low boat price the more people who get to experience the FT-10 the more boats on the water you will have.

#88 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:41 PM

owner / driver
works great
owners get to spend some ching and learn-
crew gets to learn a ton and have some fun sailing with a pro
pro gets to coach on a bunch of different levels, earns his paycheck

and while you're thinking about that, you'll need to now decide on how many pros your going to let on the crew----

good times-
weez
weez


Earns his paycheck with the currency being the "fun factor" ..................pro's aboard should not be paid...........

#89 us7070

us7070

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:52 PM

Wow circular logic lets see winning comes behind getting better buts its not fun if you don't win but you can't get better if you don't sail against good people but good people are often professionals but I don't want to race proffessionals but.. I see this argument for owner driver but not for pros on boats.



the average person, by definition, finishes at the middle of the fleet - so they are already sailing against people better than they are, and has the opportunity to improve greatly.

I'm not against pros on all boats, just boats meant for club-racing - classes where the aim is to develop local fleets, so that travel isn't needed for competition. I think allowing pro's - and having people bring them in at the club level - will hurt growth of local fleets.

I've sailed with pro's, and enjoyed it (sometimes), but I wouldn't buy a boat in a class where I had to do it to be competitive. it's just not my kind of program. I sail on OPB in that kind of program, and it's fine for owners who want to run that kind of program.

I have paid a coach to come out and practice with me.


How would I feel if i won a pickle dish at some regatta, and I had paid a pro to sail with me, but other boats didn't? I'd feel like a jerk, that's how I'd feel. I'd probably be too embarassed to go up and get it.

#90 smelly weasel

smelly weasel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,177 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 07:13 PM

Earns his paycheck with the currency being the "fun factor" ..................pro's aboard should not be paid...........



Then they wont be aboard your boat--

no check- no sail
unless of course you order a set of sails from them :)

#91 notallthere

notallthere

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,668 posts
  • Location:im on a boat!
  • Interests:any sport that starts with S

Posted 16 April 2007 - 07:23 PM

owner/driver rule is very important for class growth, and should be strictly enforced

if any cat 3's or "ex-pros" like the ed want to buy a boat and jump in, it should be encouraged

however, as a pro who happens to enjoy sailing w/ his friends, it absolutely blows to be told that i cant sail w/ my buddies.

maybe this class can continue its progressive ways, and just state that no person shall be paid to race a tiger. gentalmans agreement. if the pros want to race in the class without getting paid, then everyone wins. there are plenty of good sailors to fill the crew spots, owner/drivers can sail w/ whomever they like and pros aren't left sitting on the dock when they would rather be out on the water sailing in the peoples class, the Anarchy 30

#92 Jax_Sailor

Jax_Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 75 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL

Posted 16 April 2007 - 07:57 PM

I think "hiring" a pro to drive your boat is a joke! I was only refering to a pro that owns a one-design and races it. I have little respect for someone who buys a boat and then hires someone(pro or good amateur) to drive so they can win. Having a big wallet doesn't mean a thing about winning.

#93 EWS

EWS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,135 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:01 PM

Then they wont be aboard your boat--

no check- no sail
unless of course you order a set of sails from them :)


Easy.... if it's written into the rules that no crew shall be paid than they won't be aboard your boat either if you're paying them. If they are truly your friends and just out for a good time then we're all in the same shoes pro or not...........I'm an ex-Cat 3 myself

#94 Greg Jarvis

Greg Jarvis

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 204 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:06 PM

Being a pro, I would say that one of the best rules out there is the MUMM 30 rule. As a pro, if I could afford to buy a MUMM or a set know amount of a MUMM then I could drive. It does not change the amount of Cat 3's that can sail, it just allows a pro owner.

Look at Dave Irish and back when Mark Ploch, JB Braun owned boats.



personally I prefer the J 105 approach.. no pros
(works for me anyway)

:ph34r: :lol:

#95 boyscout

boyscout

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 349 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:15 PM

personally I prefer the J 105 approach.. no pros
(works for me anyway)

:ph34r: :lol:



Ya but I thought that this crowd didn't want to another j 105 class

#96 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:30 PM

Because you bought his sails, or his etc...

Or because you got him a job at ABC...



There are standard mechanisms to deal with quid pro quo's. You can get paid in ways other than cash and standards for making such a determination. I don't think this is a problem so long as the class rules are clearly interpreted to exclude all quid pro quo's with a monetary value.

i.e., you can have your sailmaker aboard, but you cannot pay extra for your sails in order to encourage him to come aboard.

#97 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:35 PM

What's fun? at the club-level, it's building A TEAM of friends who enjoy sailing together, and having a beer afterwards. It's not a TEAM of friends, if you pay some one $500 bucks to come out sailing with you.



You really should read the posts before you respond. Paid crew is illegal at all positions in all class sanctioned races. This is true regardless of the proposed owner/driver rule.

#98 Peacefrog

Peacefrog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,422 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:14 PM

personally I prefer the J 105 approach.. no pros
(works for me anyway)

:ph34r: :lol:



The more I see with this class, the more I agree with that statement!

#99 boyscout

boyscout

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 349 posts

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:19 PM

If you need to hire a pro or just bribe one with beer to teach you to sail better then you should be scoffed. If you're doing it simply to win races you should be double scoffed. Why not take up golf or polo or buy your own AC boat and leave the little guys alone.

Coaching?? freeking A, what a crock. Try going sailing, reading some books, sailing with friends who are better, i.e. the old fashioned way rather than pulling out that bulging hide bound member some folks can't seem to do anything without.



Ok if while your practicing you mess up how do you know? How do you know who the rig looks from off of the boat? How do you know what changes to make? Sailmakers love the J105 rule because the boats are no fun to sail. A tiger is fun to sail.

#100 DoRag

DoRag

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,919 posts
  • Location:Where the sun doesn't shine.

Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:29 PM

The more I see with this class, the more I agree with that statement!



Please forgive me for this but if the goal is to build a large class, the J105 approach will get you there faster than any other. A possible mod to this would be to allow pros during the first year only, like the J109 class does.

Why does the J105 approach work better? Well, pros aren't the ones buying boats. Usually, they don't have the bucks, or, if they do, the last they would want to do is tie themselves to their own boat. So non pros buy them. And, guess what? They don't want to race against pros! That's why they buy J105.s. I think, anyway.

The end product of a class using the J105 rules would probably be a large number of boats with average sailors, few real good ones. And that's OK. After all, it's all about having fun.

The downside of this is that the owner-driver rule has always been problamatic to enforce. Some of the crews are paid. And, the owner-driver can't be a pro, but you can have Terry Hutchinsen hop on for the NA's as tactician. And, you know those pros, they will want to longboard the hull.

So if you want a lot of boats, look at the class that has a lot of boats. Surely people don't buy these 23.5 knot shitboxes because they look pretty.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users