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#101 Peacefrog

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:35 PM

DR, look at the Melges 24, J 24, J 22 Etchells. They seem to be quite big, in fact more boats then a J 105.

#102 Cement_Shoes

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:47 PM

It is for the owners to decide. I like the owner/driver rule for most classes and it seems to fit what is trying to be achieved in the FT class.

#103 us7070

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:00 PM

You really should read the posts before you respond. Paid crew is illegal at all positions in all class sanctioned races. This is true regardless of the proposed owner/driver rule.


I was responding to a specific post which seemed to me to be making a general point about people not wanting to sail against pro's.

#104 EWS

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:09 PM

Please forgive me for this but if the goal is to build a large class, the J105 approach will get you there faster than any other. A possible mod to this would be to allow pros during the first year only, like the J109 class does.

Why does the J105 approach work better? Well, pros aren't the ones buying boats. Usually, they don't have the bucks, or, if they do, the last they would want to do is tie themselves to their own boat. So non pros buy them. And, guess what? They don't want to race against pros! That's why they buy J105.s. I think, anyway.

The end product of a class using the J105 rules would probably be a large number of boats with average sailors, few real good ones. And that's OK. After all, it's all about having fun.

The downside of this is that the owner-driver rule has always been problamatic to enforce. Some of the crews are paid. And, the owner-driver can't be a pro, but you can have Terry Hutchinsen hop on for the NA's as tactician. And, you know those pros, they will want to longboard the hull.

So if you want a lot of boats, look at the class that has a lot of boats. Surely people don't buy these 23.5 knot shitboxes because they look pretty.


Pick another boat in the size range of the FT10 and J105 that's successful.......those mumm 30's are doing wonders in the states ehh......ID35's they are all great boats and wish they had more success but the numbers don't lie........why did a pig J105 end up successful while the hot little mumm 30's and ID 35's struggled to even survive as a class (US not global for the mumm 30)

#105 Peacefrog

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:12 PM

Well, I look at price as much as length. A new E-22 or Melges 24 will be about the same amount of money to put on the water.

As for the MUMM 30 class, you are 100% correct. But that is what happens when you have a class management that stops giving a shit about the boat and promoting it. It certainly is not the boats fault or the rules fault for that matter.

#106 j24vt

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:13 PM

Personally I think the owner of the boat should be allowed to pick their seat on the boat. Why should I have to be chained to the tiller if I would rather be trimming, looking around doing tactics, flailing on the bow, or sitting on the rail nursing a massive hangover?

What is the difference between having a 'pro' tiller monkey versus having a pro trimmer spending the day steering the boat via the owner's hands? You are kidding yourself if you think owner/driver changes any thing.

The real issue here is paid crew. I have a lot of Cat 3 friends. They don't get paid when they sail with me. What it does is frees me up to sit on the rail and do tactics, which I enjoy. Seems to me if you stop after "No paid crew" you have the problem covered.

Owner/driver is not a plus in the eyes of this prospective buyer.

#107 DoRag

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:17 PM

DR, look at the Melges 24, J 24, J 22 Etchells. They seem to be quite big, in fact more boats then a J 105.


Good point.

The Melgi group are certainly filled with pros.

The J22 and 24, are now very cheap. Not sure how vital those groups are. In SoCal they are not a factor in any major regatta I know of.

I guess it's all based on how one wants to position the boat. Full on race type or multi propose.

#108 fan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:18 PM

Pick another boat in the size range of the FT10 and J105 that's successful.......those mumm 30's are doing wonders in the states ehh......ID35's they are all great boats and wish they had more success but the numbers don't lie........why did a pig J105 end up successful while the hot little mumm 30's and ID 35's struggled to even survive as a class (US not global for the mumm 30)


Because their too hard to sail?

#109 jimbot

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:20 PM

I would like to propose a regatta. Cat 3's allowed to drive, but -
Day 1. Race normal, with whom ever you bring.
Day 2. All cat 3's (including owners) names go into a hat. Boats from the bottom of the fleet draw their names, and the Cat 3's race with them, one per boat. No penalty for extra body.

Me, I'd love to have a pro along to show me the ropes, but I can't afford it. Let the owners with big pockets bring the pros, maybe they can build a big enough lead on day one to hold on to the silver. The also-rans get the training they need to compete. :lol:

#110 DoRag

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:25 PM

Pick another boat in the size range of the FT10 and J105 that's successful.......those mumm 30's are doing wonders in the states ehh......ID35's they are all great boats and wish they had more success but the numbers don't lie........why did a pig J105 end up successful while the hot little mumm 30's and ID 35's struggled to even survive as a class (US not global for the mumm 30)


The obvious answer is the owner/driver rule as modified by the "long term shipmate" addendum. Also the class keeps the cost down by controlling both the number and type of sails.

The competition isn't all that top level, but everyone has fun, gets better and that's the real point of the exercise. Amateurs want to race against amateurs. And they are the ones buying the boats.

The downside is that you sure get a lot of shit on SA.

Long live the 23.5 knot shitboxes!

#111 boyscout

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:35 PM

Pick another boat in the size range of the FT10 and J105 that's successful.......those mumm 30's are doing wonders in the states ehh......ID35's they are all great boats and wish they had more success but the numbers don't lie........why did a pig J105 end up successful while the hot little mumm 30's and ID 35's struggled to even survive as a class (US not global for the mumm 30)



Remember this not a USA only boat last I check 25% of the fleet will be non USA.

#112 EWS

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:36 PM

Because their too hard to sail?


Because they were too expensive to campaign to be competitive. If the Melges 24, J22, J24 etc.....needed 4 headsails and a main in Carbon / Aramid with fractional and masthead sym kites and fractional and masthead assym kites including hired pro's just to have the slightest shot in a win.......damn right they'd be dead on arrival. The magic to large numbers is based on the design purpose of this boat...........make it fast, make it cheap / affordable, make it for the majority...........make it happen

#113 fan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:39 PM

damn that was my next guess :P

#114 DoRag

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:54 PM

Because their too hard to sail?


It's....... "they're."

#115 Christian

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:36 PM

Yes..........

FT10 Sails


Have anybody ever seen North on a FT yet sailing against the other sailmakers' and win? - if not this is quite the statement:

For the world's fastest FLYING TIGER sails, contact:

ONE DESIGN - WEST
Vince Brun
voice 619 226-1415
fax 619 224-7018


#116 Christian

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:40 PM

I always get a kick out of reading peoples thoughts about racing with pros in one-design classes. It seems most people don't want to race against a pro because that feel they don't have a chance to beat them. Is winning a trophy the most important thing, or is getting better the goal? If it's about winning a trophy, then save a ton of money and go buy yourself a nice piece of silver or a big flag you and fly from your mast that tells everyone how good you are! I enjoy racing against the best sailors around. If they are pros, so be it. I don't always win, but when I do I feel like I acomplished something I set out to do. The people who know me know I started out as a middle of the pack sailor, but after YEARS of hard work and asking tons of questions the results started to show. That is why I race sailboats. If it was easy then everybody would do it.


I fully agree - may impact the class growth though as many people do not think this way

#117 AECMX

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:00 AM

It would be a bummer to see that happen to the FT-10. The pros steering kinda fly in the face of what the tiger is all about. Let the pros duke it out in the Melges 32 class while the boat owners ride the rail to glory!


The Melges32 Class is an "Owner Driver" Class. I think only one boat has a hired "amateur" gun who coincidently isn't allowed to drive a Farr 40 and was a collegiate All-American. I think there's some question to his actual financial interest in the boat and keeps up his portion of regatta/sail costs too. Not hard to find amateur guns to drive a FT.

#118 acrboston

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:42 AM

This conversation is absolutely ridiculous. Of course you have to let the pro’s in, and yes, they may take over your class – at least for awhile until the next hot ride comes along (most pro’s have ADD and move on to next best thing in few years anyway). The non one-designer’s hear continuous drone of the “holy rollers” chanting One-Design is where its at. Its sounds like you guy’s want to handicap skill. Attempting that is a slippery road to hell in a hand basket – and by the way I seriously doubt the boats are all they same anyway.

#119 Tri-Flow

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:57 AM

And what is a pro sailor anyway? Is there actually a real living to be made doing that? Or are they just glorified couch surfers?[/quote]



Ignorance is bliss.

#120 devil boy

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 12:58 AM

If you really want to do this right, you will create your own definitions of what a Pro is or is not. Ignore the US Sailing Def.
Build a better mousetrap, and they will come. If you are clever you may be able to pattent(sp) the criteria to sell to other classes, just check with Doug Lord first to make sure he hasn't done it already.

DB

#121 acrboston

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 01:55 AM

If you really want to do this right, you will create your own definitions of what a Pro is or is not. Ignore the US Sailing Def.
Build a better mousetrap, and they will come. If you are clever you may be able to pattent(sp) the criteria to sell to other classes, just check with Doug Lord first to make sure he hasn't done it already.

DB


Here goes: The new definition of pro is:

1) Can urinate from the transom in heavy seas without falling overboard
2) If a bowman, sleeps with a harness on and has access to a knife 24/7
3) Be ready for racing after performing hemodialysis with alcohol
4) At windward mark, has the ability to yell – “you have no rights” with a Kiwi accent
5) Can wrap the winch the right way more than 90% of the time
6) Can tie bowline without mnemonic rhyme (i.e. rabbit comes out of hole, around the tree, etc.)

#122 DoRag

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 02:49 AM

Here goes: The new definition of pro is:

1) Can urinate from the transom in heavy seas without falling overboard
2) If a bowman, sleeps with a harness on and has access to a knife 24/7
3) Be ready for racing after performing hemodialysis with alcohol
4) At windward mark, has the ability to yell – “you have no rights” with a Kiwi accent
5) Can wrap the winch the right way more than 90% of the time
6) Can tie bowline without mnemonic rhyme (i.e. rabbit comes out of hole, around the tree, etc.)



Definition of a Newbie: Fucktard!

#123 JBSF

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:42 AM

If you need to hire a pro or just bribe one with beer to teach you to sail better then you should be scoffed. If you're doing it simply to win races you should be double scoffed. Why not take up golf or polo or buy your own AC boat and leave the little guys alone.

Coaching?? freeking A, what a crock. Try going sailing, reading some books, sailing with friends who are better, i.e. the old fashioned way rather than pulling out that bulging hide bound member some folks can't seem to do anything without.


That's BS. There is nothing wrong with paying a coach to get better. Its no different than an amateur paying coach to work on a golk swing or whatever. But that coach doesn't then go out and help you win your friendly foursome on sat either. In fact I think what this sport is lacking the most is affordable coaching. I don't think shelling out $5K for sails to get some "coaching" on the racecourse is reasonable. If all these "pros" want to actually make some $$ at sailing - then fracking hang a shingle up at the YC and offer sailing lessons and some team race coaching during the week and on off-race weekends. And for those that think they can only gain actual experence in real races with a pro then enter that local means-nothing race, race your guts out learning from the pro and then withdraw from the standings in the spirit of good sportsmanship. The take that knowledge and learning as a team and go kick some butt on your won in a real race. If you win, your achievement will be 1000 fold because you did it on your own instead of paying hired guns to do it for you.

#124 FatimaRules

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:07 AM

Just stick to no Cat 3 can drive unless an owner, and no one can be paid to sail. Simple and covers 95% of the arguements.

But actually I raced a Cowes Week in my SB3 against Ben Ainslie and Shirley Robertson (neither owners), and sure when seeing the entry list you kind of scrubbed off getting some silverwear, but hey, that 's only for the ego. What got me really stoked was the competition, competing against someone who is arguably the best sailor in the world (and also against one of the best femail sailors in the world (and of course one of the best regardless of gender, stature etc!))(and a bit hot!)), and taking a few starts, a few cross tacks and in the end a few races off them. Having a picture of the two of them chasing me down a run hit the front page of The Times, kind of sent the happy feelings through the roof, and I learned a shit load more than thrashing a shit fleet for some sparkly silverwear. Not that that seams to happen much.

Anyway, not buying one, so who cares!

#125 JBSF

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 02:02 PM

Just stick to no Cat 3 can drive unless an owner, and no one can be paid to sail. Simple and covers 95% of the arguements.

But actually I raced a Cowes Week in my SB3 against Ben Ainslie and Shirley Robertson (neither owners), and sure when seeing the entry list you kind of scrubbed off getting some silverwear, but hey, that 's only for the ego. What got me really stoked was the competition, competing against someone who is arguably the best sailor in the world (and also against one of the best femail sailors in the world (and of course one of the best regardless of gender, stature etc!))(and a bit hot!)), and taking a few starts, a few cross tacks and in the end a few races off them. Having a picture of the two of them chasing me down a run hit the front page of The Times, kind of sent the happy feelings through the roof, and I learned a shit load more than thrashing a shit fleet for some sparkly silverwear. Not that that seams to happen much.

Anyway, not buying one, so who cares!

1st of all.... anyone who thinks you can get around no pros by saying "they can sail, just not get paid" is naieve as hell. There will be owners who will do whatever it takes to get a pickle dish and if that means paying a guy under the table to buy a win - then there are some who will do it.

And as for your analogy about racing Ben Ainsle - you proved DU's thesis. You entered a known pro class to "race up". Pros racing in club OD and shitbox PHRF fun racing is "not the same thing - that's racing "down" from their level. Bringing a pro into a club racing class is nothing but cherry-picking. No doubt that pros and sailmakers can get a class up to speed better than left alone, but they should be doing that from a coaches/tuners standpoint, not from the middle of a race.

#126 DoRag

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 02:41 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Jeff B @ Apr 17 2007, 07:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1st of all.... anyone who thinks you can get around no pros by saying "they can sail, just not get paid" is naieve as hell. There will be owners who will do whatever it takes to get a pickle dish and if that means paying a guy under the table to buy a win - then there are some who will do it.

And as for your analogy about racing Ben Ainsle - you proved DU's thesis. You entered a known pro class to "race up". Pros racing in club OD and shitbox PHRF fun racing is "not the same thing - that's racing "down" from their level. Bringing a pro into a club racing class is nothing but cherry-picking. No doubt that pros and sailmakers can get a class up to speed better than left alone, but they should be doing that from a coaches/tuners standpoint, not from the middle of a race.[/quote]

Yes, some will do it. Some do it now.

Your point is made by the example of adding Terry Hutchinson as "tactician" in the 105 NA's several years ago. Examples like that really render any competition meaningless. Even if 2/3rds of the Class don't know who Terry Hutchinson is.

#127 arrrkelly

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 03:12 PM

When I raced it only made it better to have the best of the best on the water. Pro's, oympians, college stars-sweet. I won several regattas in my home town where I was the best at the time. I never won shit against any big names. But, sometimes I could hang with the big dogs and that was more fun anyway.

Get over it. Pros won't kill your class. Race your ass off and have fun.

#128 Editor

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 03:26 PM

WTF! Close to 60 posts on the topic and not a single person has bothered to take a look at the rules in print.

C.2 CREW
C.2.1 LIMITATIONS
a Paid crew shall not be allowed.
b A Crew may contain a maximum of one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor except for National or Class-designated Championship events.
c A Crew shall contain zero (0) ISAF Group 3 sailors at a National or Class-designated Championship event with the exception that one (1) ISAF Group 3 sailor shall be permitted if and only if he/she is the owner of the Boat


The intention for the above was to allow coaching at the local level only and be very strict at the national/championship level. This was heavily debated before and is a good basis to work from.

BTW, the rules team welcomes additional inputs & tweaks, just please don't start from scratch.

Clew


What is the point of allowing a single Cat 3 onboard for most all events and then saying no at the championship regatta? That does not make sense - allow them for all events.

#129 Wess

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:37 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Jeff B @ Apr 17 2007, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1st of all.... anyone who thinks you can get around no pros by saying "they can sail, just not get paid" is naieve as hell. There will be owners who will do whatever it takes to get a pickle dish and if that means paying a guy under the table to buy a win - then there are some who will do it.

And as for your analogy about racing Ben Ainsle - you proved DU's thesis. You entered a known pro class to "race up". Pros racing in club OD and shitbox PHRF fun racing is "not the same thing - that's racing "down" from their level. Bringing a pro into a club racing class is nothing but cherry-picking. No doubt that pros and sailmakers can get a class up to speed better than left alone, but they should be doing that from a coaches/tuners standpoint, not from the middle of a race.[/quote]

But a simple reality for many "club level" team is that they struggle to get everyone to make all the races every year. The prospect of getting everyone to the boat on weeknights or off weekends is not always realistic at that level.

For many teams at that level, the only chance they get to sail with a pro on board and learn something from them, is while they are racing.

Agree its far less than optimal for the team and they would get more out of it in a non-racing mode but that may not be a realistic expectation at the club level this boat is aimed at.

#130 Rapscallion

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:55 PM

This conversation is absolutely ridiculous. Of course you have to let the pro’s in, and yes, they may take over your class – at least for awhile until the next hot ride comes along (most pro’s have ADD and move on to next best thing in few years anyway). The non one-designer’s hear continuous drone of the “holy rollers” chanting One-Design is where its at. Its sounds like you guy’s want to handicap skill. Attempting that is a slippery road to hell in a hand basket – and by the way I seriously doubt the boats are all they same anyway.



I'm usually very good at seeing both sides of a story but this time it seems very cut and dry to me. I think the only people scoffing at a owner/driver rule are pros. If a pro wants to steer a tiger in a race, let them buy into one. I don't think anyone proposed a ban on pros altogether... Let the people that spent the money steer the boat. Let the pros crew..... Right?

#131 Peacefrog

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 05:14 PM

raps read post #132 that answers that.

#132 Phoenix

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 05:25 PM

Actually, I think you may have the pro allowance backward. I would allow the pro at an event where you are more likely to have large numbers of boats. There is little probability that the pros will migrate to a class that has economy as a goal. There are already enough classes where the sky is the limit to stretch the ranks of true qualified pros pretty thin. What you will get is an owner who really wants to learn to sail better using good coaching to escalate their program in a short period of time.

After sailing with Bill Hardesty on the Etchells in Florida, I can promise you that he taught us more in a winter than we could have gotten out of spending the rest of our lives reading books and taking courses. We got very lucky. He's a consumate pro. He was never abusive, but he did press us to get better at everything we did. He did tell us where to go, but there was great discussion and input from everyone the whole time.

We read tons of books and either of us could teach a normal racing course. Our problem wasn't speed or corners. It was starting with pace in a large fleet and managing the fleet in the last 25% of the leg. We weren't slow ever, nor were we timid at the line. We just had no idea what to do when confronted with the sheer magnitude of a 50 to 70 boat fleet. At the start it was handling the nearby boats and the timeing of that handling. When we got a good start we could get up the first leg in the top teens, then it was downhill at every corner. it wasn't sail handling, it was positioning.

Yes, Bill got us higher in the results faster than we could have gotten there without his help. I will remind you though, it's a team sport. Neither Etchells or FT's are one man boats. There were plenty of other programs out there this winter with more money and more pro's. You have to want to learn, not win. Wishing for pewter is a waste of time. Trying to apply the lessons every day is hard work, but it gets you faster.

Anyone who thinks coaching is a crock should look at the successful olympic and intercollegiate programs. They get the coaching that those of us who went to college before sailing was really a sport never got. We have been successful both handicap racing and one design racing at the local level. It was at the national level where we just couldn't get it. Bill has taught us tons. Now it will be up to us to see how much we can retain and implement.

#133 tls

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 05:43 PM

What is the point of allowing a single Cat 3 onboard for most all events and then saying no at the championship regatta? That does not make sense - allow them for all events.


Let me get this straight. You are absolutely against have a pro drive in any class regatta, but you want them on board doing everything else during the championships? That isn't going to be good for the class, even if it is good for the owner who has the most cat3 sailors that owe him a favor.

I can think of several reasons that you should keep them off during championships, primarily because a championship is no time for a "coach" but also because a flood of such pros could show up at the national or world championships in search of a resume item. In a very concrete sense, Cat3 sailors make money by racing in world championships regardless of whether the owner does the paying. The North Cat 3 ringer will chose to sail on the best boat with North sails during the championship to insure that the boat places well so that he can make money selling more North sails. There are no unpaid Cat 3 sailors in a national/world championship.

#134 tls

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 05:51 PM

I'm usually very good at seeing both sides of a story but this time it seems very cut and dry to me. I think the only people scoffing at a owner/driver rule are pros. If a pro wants to steer a tiger in a race, let them buy into one. I don't think anyone proposed a ban on pros altogether... Let the people that spent the money steer the boat. Let the pros crew..... Right?



I scoff at an owner/driver rule and I am not a pro.

I think the owner should be able to do whatever he wants on the boat, and any other person he choses should be allowed to helm. In the best "team" I was ever a part of, the owner let all of the crew have a chance of sailing one race per season. He took over their job.

I can also thing of several owners who prefer to call tactics or trim rather than drive.

I can think of several situations where a physically weak owner (often a woman or older man) turned over the helm to stronger crew in heavy weather or when tired/sick/hungover.

Legislating crew positions is overly restrictive and does not solve the problem that pros can make a competitive imbalance in the fleet.

#135 Phoenix

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:10 PM

Owner driver doesn't really work. Legislating out 3's doesn't work either. First, if the owner has to piss, who's going to steer. As for 3's there are a bunch of 1's out there who seem to get rides on Farr 40's and other boats and maintain the 1 status. I don't have a horse in this race. However, it seems futile to make a rule that is impossible to enforce.

#136 Clewless

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:17 PM

TLS,

Sounds like you actually agree with the rules as they stand now.

Clew

#137 Hank

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:32 PM

The obvious answer is the owner/driver rule as modified by the "long term shipmate" addendum. Also the class keeps the cost down by controlling both the number and type of sails.

The competition isn't all that top level, but everyone has fun, gets better and that's the real point of the exercise. Amateurs want to race against amateurs. And they are the ones buying the boats.

The downside is that you sure get a lot of shit on SA.

Long live the 23.5 knot shitboxes!







Like DoRag mentioned.........go with a modified rule.............

The obvious answer is the owner/driver rule as modified by the "long term shipmate" addendum. Also the class keeps the cost down by controlling both the number and type of sails.

#138 tls

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 09:21 PM

TLS,

Sounds like you actually agree with the rules as they stand now.

Clew



Yep, I more or less agree. I still see two weaknesses. First there are no restrictions at all on Cat 2 sailors, which some boats might exploit. I don't think it is easy to fix this because of the problems in defining Cat 2, so perhaps it is best to wait until you actually have evidence of a problem. Second, the current rules don't seem to deal with boat charterers. If charterers are treated like owners then a Cat 3 can charter for nationals. On the other hand, I think you want to encourage charterers so that you can get sailors from other classes to try out the FT10. I think you should allow charterers to be considered owners so long as they are not also Cat 3 sailors.

I agree that any set of rules restricting pros and paid crew will have some wiggle room (cheating?) due to definitions of both paying and Cat 3. That is not a good reason to avoid the rule. At the very least, the bastard who wins by cheating knows that it was unfair and he doesn't really deserve the title. It is no different than the 100 other ways to cheat at sailing.

EDIT: I think you might also want to elaborate on the rule that says you cannot pay crew to make it explicit for the morally impaired that the prohibition includes all quid pro quo's that have a possible monetary value. "I will buy your sails only if you crew on my boat for X regatta" should be illegal. The sailmaker can sail with you, but you cannot make it a precondition of the transaction. Same deal with having employees serve a crew or paying for crew gifts.

#139 JoeO

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:08 PM

This doesn't have to be that complicated.

Driver: The driver may be any ISAF category, provided he/she is at least a 50% bona-fide owner. Otherwise, the driver must be Category 1.

Crew: Up to two crew may be category 2 or 3, but no more than one may be category 3.

These rules apply to all Class (One Design) events.


So now you have either amatuer (owner's long-time shipmates, or other crew) or owner/driver.
You can have one "real" pro, or you can sail w/one pro and your buddy who works at West Marine, or you can sail with 2 of your buddies who work at West Marine.
Forget about trying to restrict "payment" of pros... too many ways for owners to make "contributions-in-kind" for that to be a realistic restriction.

Now go sailing, and learn from the pros who will be around making the boats go faster and their crews sail smarter. If it's really not about the pickle dishes, it shouldn't be a problem.

#140 tls

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:32 PM

Like DoRag mentioned.........go with a modified rule.............

The obvious answer is the owner/driver rule as modified by the "long term shipmate" addendum. Also the class keeps the cost down by controlling both the number and type of sails.



The "long-term shipmate" exception is okay if you feel you must have an owner/driver rule, but it could cause problems. For instance, many times an owner who cannot get their boat to nationals will still attend as crew. Could they steer, given that they are neither the owner nor the long term crew? What if you travel to a regatta and your regular crew cannot attend. You get pickup (or SA ad) crew for the races. Does this mean you cannot have one of them steer the boat while you, say, rig the spinnaker, find the spare winch handle down below, or drink a beer?

At any rate, I don't think there is a significant advantage in having the pro drive the boat relative to having them call the start, shifts, tactics, and trim. You end up with a restrictive rule that really doesn't really address the problem caused by pros on board.

Sail limits are already discussed and a totally separate issue from who is allowed to touch the tiller.

#141 JBSF

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:11 PM

What is the point of allowing a single Cat 3 onboard for most all events and then saying no at the championship regatta? That does not make sense - allow them for all events.


The intention for the above was to allow coaching at the local level only and be very strict at the national/championship level.

I think the above comment from Clew sums it up nicely. Because you know as well as I do that most people are only going to hire the pro for the nat'l level races and have zero interest in the coaching aspect during the season. Its all about buying a win. I think the rule makes great sense because for all of you who pay lip service to the old worn-out line "they help us learn and get faster", it will force the class to actually use pros in the role they are intended (learning, coaching) and then for the really important events - a team will live or die by its own skills. AS IT SHOULD BE!

#142 JBSF

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:15 PM

QUOTE(Jeff B @ Apr 17 2007, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>1st of all.... anyone who thinks you can get around no pros by saying "they can sail, just not get paid" is naieve as hell. There will be owners who will do whatever it takes to get a pickle dish and if that means paying a guy under the table to buy a win - then there are some who will do it.

And as for your analogy about racing Ben Ainsle - you proved DU's thesis. You entered a known pro class to "race up". Pros racing in club OD and shitbox PHRF fun racing is "not the same thing - that's racing "down" from their level. Bringing a pro into a club racing class is nothing but cherry-picking. No doubt that pros and sailmakers can get a class up to speed better than left alone, but they should be doing that from a coaches/tuners standpoint, not from the middle of a race.

But a simple reality for many "club level" team is that they struggle to get everyone to make all the races every year. The prospect of getting everyone to the boat on weeknights or off weekends is not always realistic at that level.

For many teams at that level, the only chance they get to sail with a pro on board and learn something from them, is while they are racing.

Agree its far less than optimal for the team and they would get more out of it in a non-racing mode but that may not be a realistic expectation at the club level this boat is aimed at.

I agree, which is why I said that it would be perfectly fine to bring a pro along during an un-important local sat regatta where your crew could learn and be taught during actual race conditions. But then the skipper should withdraw after the race is over because he would have gained an unfair advantage by using the pro during the race. SO for you guys paying lip service to the notion that you are using a coach to "learn and get better" and not just buying your pickle dish - then that is the only honorable, sensible thing to do.

#143 JBSF

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:51 PM

If it's really not about the pickle dishes, it shouldn't be a problem.


BUT is IS really all about the pickle dishes. How many boats have you all seen that were hacks back in their home waters all year only to show up at KWRW or some other event and do much better (or even win their class) than you could possibly have imagined. Guess what, the deep pocket owner bought that pickle dish for that regatta pure and simple. He had no desire to get better for the long term, he wanted the win for THAT week.

Let me give you a few personal examples..... The J29 program I was sailing with back in NC started from scratch built around the owners friends as crew. We got decent because we would all get together as often as we could and actually PRACTICE on weekenights (what a concept) - doing things like doing spinnaker sets and takedowns until it was second nature and really learning the boat's gears. And a few of us drove several hours just for the practice events because we were committed to the program - so the excuse for not practicing IMHO is kinda lame. But I digress.... As a result by the 2nd season we were consistantly winning our local events against two of our main competitiors - a T30 and a B25. We usually had no problem handling them during the season - even occasionally beating the T30 BFB (what does that tell you?) However, low and behold both of those boats go to KWRW that year and the T30 ends up 4th in the sportboat class and the B25 wins its PHRF class. You think that was the same crew that we raced against? Not a fucking chance. Both owners loaded up their boats with pros to specifically improve their performance for a specific regatta. When they came back to race the local events that spring - the usual crew was back and we were back to usually beating them (not that our crew of friends would have done well at KWRW on our own - we would have gotten our asses kicked). But you think that they "learned" much from having the pros there? No, but they have a nice shiney trophy on their mantle.

And to be fair - I don't really blame either of the the owners for doing it because that is the unspoken rules of the game when you go to a big regatta like KWRW. (Besides the B25 owner is a really nice guy). Everyones' doing it and that's a crapload of money to waste down there knowing walking into the regatta the playing field is NOT level. So of course you're going to try to hire a pro too just to compete. See how the arms race begins? And that my friends is why allowing pros (other than in a coaching capacity) into a class advertised as "affordable" is just wrong.

#144 murphy

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:28 AM

I think the class rules as written are a good start in the right direction and appreciate the work that was put into them. The only thing I would add is a rule saying that the "pros" can not steer the boat.
My reason for being that specific is that I like to have everyone on the boat get a chance to steer. On the boats I have owned I always try to get everyone working at the different positions, including myself. This way if one of the crew gets sick or has other comitments there is someone else who can fill in. It also allows me to get the bigger picture as I like tactics. I have found some pretty good helmsmen over the years that never knew they had it in them.
If there is a "pro" on board they should be there to help work things out and teach, they are not going to do that effectively if they are at the helm.

#145 TheBoathouse

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 03:13 AM

I vote owner/driver rule and maximum one Cat 3 on board.

#146 Pete M

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 03:55 AM

I should think you would want to have the "best of the best of the best, with honers, sir" on board

Just makes sense. Why dick around with chumlies, ya know?

#147 TheBoathouse

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 11:44 AM

I should think you would want to have the "best of the best of the best, with honers, sir" on board

Just makes sense. Why dick around with chumlies, ya know?


Nothing wrong with "chumlies", in fact I think that is what this boat was designed for.........

#148 the grand wizard

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:12 PM

pros onboard is a very slippery slope as you move from racing on the water to racing with the size of your wallet. the pressure to get a better or more pro sailors will eventually leave the bulk of the fleet discouraged. I know having the local sailmaker onboard will makes it a more competitive boat but what happens when you call him and he is booked by someone who has more than you.

the answer is not easy. its nearly impossible to ban paying for crew as some owner have no scruples or will seek to take advantage of any rule loophole.

#149 waterboy

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:33 PM

Please forgive me for this but if the goal is to build a large class, the J105 approach will get you there faster than any other. A possible mod to this would be to allow pros during the first year only, like the J109 class does.

Why does the J105 approach work better? Well, pros aren't the ones buying boats. Usually, they don't have the bucks, or, if they do, the last they would want to do is tie themselves to their own boat. So non pros buy them. And, guess what? They don't want to race against pros! That's why they buy J105.s. I think, anyway.

The end product of a class using the J105 rules would probably be a large number of boats with average sailors, few real good ones. And that's OK. After all, it's all about having fun.

The downside of this is that the owner-driver rule has always been problamatic to enforce. Some of the crews are paid. And, the owner-driver can't be a pro, but you can have Terry Hutchinsen hop on for the NA's as tactician. And, you know those pros, they will want to longboard the hull.

So if you want a lot of boats, look at the class that has a lot of boats. Surely people don't buy these 23.5 knot shitboxes because they look pretty.


This is the best post on this thread.

You cannot argue with the J105 model. For a mediocre boat by todays' standards, you can sell the thing for a reasonable price. For Joe sailor, that's a big consideration, and a measure of the health of the class. That's all I can add to DoRag's post other than a hearty hear-hear.

#150 FatimaRules

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 02:35 PM

So there's agreement then!

It appears you will never be able to enforce any rule you do finally agree on (fat chance!) so...

1. I haven't heard a really good reason not to have pros that didn't involve ego.

2. I always thought the basic rule was winning required being the best, I didn't realise you could invoke clauses.

If I wanted to win I'd go race 4 knot shit-boxes on some arse end of nowhere lake.

If I want to challenge myself I'll go race allcomers and get thrashed along with my friends, but I hope to hell we'll do our best, and maybe pick off a few pros, and go home with a warm fuzzy feeling far more valuable than some piece of tin I have(n't) won.

Am I the only one arrogant enough to think I wouldn't mind having a tilt at the pros? Hhm, I'll answer my own question.

Just go race the boat and do your best, that's really why we are out there. The tin is not important.

Man I'm clearly talking to myself (and perhaps nieive!)

"Drive-on"

#151 the grand wizard

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 03:17 PM

2. I always thought the basic rule was winning required being the best

Where do you really think this applies. even the Olympics has rules on who is the best.

Professional sailors do not pick ride by who has the best smile. Its strictly 'what in it for me'. That means $$$$. the big regatta is coming and you have a new set of sails, clean bottom, and great crew with your sail loft rep. Out a few hundred bucks and you head to the starting line where you immediately notice a half dozen boats have all pro crews with national known tacticians. You ain't in this regatta.

On the east coast, nothing burst your winning bubble like getting to the starting line and seeing Max Skelley on a competitors boat.

#152 Peacefrog

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 04:19 PM

On the east coast, nothing burst your winning bubble like getting to the starting line and seeing Max Skelley on a competitors boat.



Really? Whenever I see Max on a boat, I think, fucking A! The racing is going to be top notch and more then likely I will learn something today :)

#153 suider

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 04:59 PM

peacefrog said it earlier, but i'll just throw my hat in...

the mumm30 restrictions are, imho, the best OD configuration...

yeah, it restricts me personally sailing sometimes, and that sucks... but, if i could buy one, at least i could sail the thing.... :P

owner/driver... limit the amount of 2's (both of them :lol: ) and 3's....



and, i don't know if it has come up, but everyone started throwing around the 'cat's like the ft was going to use isaf classifications... is that the case? i honestly don't know...

/c

edit: and i think 2 cat 3's might be a little more appropriate than 1? there are enough people on the boat to do that, imho...

#154 the grand wizard

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 05:50 PM

Really? Whenever I see Max on a boat, I think, fucking A! The racing is going to be top notch and more then likely I will learn something today :)



that 'cause your a well known, very successful sailor.. somebody who can complete with him.. and Yes I learn something from him.. I learn I got a lot more learning to do

#155 Peacefrog

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:28 PM

GW, if you are learning from him when you sail against him, does that not make you a better sailor? Is that not what you strive to be? Or do you just strive to win a pickle dish against weaker people/teams?

I like to win just as much as the next guy, but I thrive on trying/wanting to win against the best of the best.

I am about to sail in the J 22 fleet this year, I cannot wait to sail against guys like Greg Fisher, Terry Flynn, Chris Doyle, Peter Mc Chesney (sp??) and all the top people in that fleet. Notice I listed both pros and Cat 1's! I know that what this means is that I am is still going to get my ass handed to me at these at first and maybe for ever. But we will do all we can to improve to change that.

But when I finish up with them or in front of them that I have had a great day. Shit I am going to my ass kicked by a bunch of Girls to :) But that is part of why we are doing this campaign. We want to sail together, three friends, we want to get better and we want to sail against 30-60 other boats.

If you only sail against people of the same or lower level then yourself you do not get any better. Making a shitty start, mark rounding, tack/gybe, will not hurt you because every one of you are making the same mistakes over and over and you are not "pressured" to get better because no one is pressured to get better.

By having on board coaches your team will excel. Your starts, tacks, gybes, sets, douses and tactics will be stronger and you will get better and the pickle dishes will come sooner.

#156 j24vt

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:36 PM

As one of our crew put it: "If you are winning all the time it is not worth doing."

#157 the grand wizard

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 06:53 PM

PF my only objection is buying crews and winning via the checkbook. I donot drive a Boxer. I buy my sails, I dive my boat, I buy the beer. Lets have some part of the challenge be on level playing field. I am struggling to sail at the level I am at. if you and I walked into a room with Greg , Terry, Chris , and Pete I will bet they address you by name .. me they might ask to empty the ash trays. I sail in the chesepeake so I think I have sailed against you and Pete ...its a thrill even if you are only side by side at the starting line. if a top rated sailor is on a boat strictly as a friend .. well god bless him lets go sailing

#158 JBSF

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:47 PM

By having on board coaches your team will excel. Your starts, tacks, gybes, sets, douses and tactics will be stronger and you will get better and the pickle dishes will come sooner.

Dude, NO ONE is denying the value a coach has to improving the performace of a team. But stop lying to us and yourself if you think the vast majority of people who hire a pro to come sail with them for the Nats, N/A, KWRW or whatever are doing it for the "coaching"! I call Bullshit! You know as well as I do that someone like you (whoever you are) is being invited/paid to come along and increase that owners chances of winning some silver. Its an investment in speed just like buying that new set of sails for the big regatta. If those guys were actually interested in having thier team improve and wanting to learn from a pro - then they would fracking hire you to come out and sail on a Wed night beer can race or even in some local "mean's-nothing" regatta to learn under race conditions. Waiting until the last big race of the year or only hiring a pro in the big regattas means the podium is not determined by crew skill - but by wallet size.

For all of those challenged by the concept - this is an amateur sport. There are pro classes available for you to go test yourself against. I think its a great idea and highly encouraged, but it should be a one way direction only - amateurs can race above thier level if they so choose, pros should not race below their level. Why would it be any different than if I had the money to hire a Tiger Woods to fill out my weekend golf foursome? But he's there to coach me! BS! It would be like inviting Barry Bonds to come out and play in the local softball league on your team. And to the howls of protest from the other teams your answer is: "but he's just here to coach us. And oh btw - he's going to hit 3rd in the rotation".

C'mon - PF you know as well as I do your protestations are lame and its nothing to do other than you trying to keep your source of income alive. Good on ya for the effort - but its pretty transparent.

#159 Peacefrog

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 08:50 PM

Jeff, I am glad you have me figured out so well!

#160 Cable-Layer

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Posted 19 April 2007 - 05:37 PM

Owner-Driver....mimick the F-40s and J105s. They did it right.

#161 eerie sailor

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 02:43 AM

The boat was created under anarchy........why stop now? A mixture of closed (owners only drive), and open regatta's should serve this class well. That should cover all the previous arguements. Personally I would like to sail against the best the class can attract. If you want to penalize in some way for non owner drivers, here is what the Henderson's used to do.
Crew Weight 1500 #
With non owner driver, Crew Weight 1450#
With non owner driver class 2 0r 3, crew weight 1400 #

So when is the first official FT OD regatta?

#162 Clewless

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 05:27 AM

I think we had a few already.

4 boats during Midwinters
8 boats during NOOD
6 boats during recent SDYC OD weekend

#163 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 12:39 PM

Would that be a real owneship, or a bullshit ownership? Better bring your canceled check...


Dose a pro that is going to drive it have to own the entire boat, or a partnership?
Just how much of the boat dose the "pro" have to own?
What if I sell just the tiller of the tiger to a pro, that's his part of the boat so he gets to drive, right?


This whole issue is pure bullshit, <_<

#164 miltwempley

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 03:14 PM

Dose a pro that is going to drive it have to own the entire boat, or a partnership?
Just how much of the boat dose the "pro" have to own?
What if I sell just the tiller of the tiger to a pro, that's his part of the boat so he gets to drive, right?


This whole issue is pure bullshit, <_<


Bullshit why?

#165 DoRag

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 05:49 PM

Dose a pro that is going to drive it have to own the entire boat, or a partnership?
Just how much of the boat dose the "pro" have to own?
What if I sell just the tiller of the tiger to a pro, that's his part of the boat so he gets to drive, right?
This whole issue is pure bullshit, <_<


BS? Like your ability to spell or think logically about anything? Sell a tiller? Oh yeah, that would work. Gee, everyone would nod in agreement with that. Even the J105's allow that.

#166 eerie sailor

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Posted 20 April 2007 - 11:04 PM

I think we had a few already.

4 boats during Midwinters
8 boats during NOOD
6 boats during recent SDYC OD weekend



These were not really OD regatta's were they? I would call them an open OD regatta. Did you guys and gals weigh crew? Did you even ask for crew weight totals? Did you measure sails to make sure they fit yor rule? I have not read your class rules in detail. Are you guys requiring sail buttons?

#167 akaGP

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:19 PM

These were not really OD regatta's were they? I would call them an open OD regatta. Did you guys and gals weigh crew? Did you even ask for crew weight totals? Did you measure sails to make sure they fit yor rule? I have not read your class rules in detail. Are you guys requiring sail buttons?

If all the participants agreed that the above mentioned regattas were OD, why would anyone else want to contradict it unless they have an agenda?

#168 eerie sailor

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 02:25 AM

If all the participants agreed that the above mentioned regattas were OD, why would anyone else want to contradict it unless they have an agenda?





Mr. akaGP

I don't think I have an eerie agenda here but maybe you can help me figure that out? ;)



Anti agenda hints:
1. Didn't start the thread.
  • Didn't post till thread #166. Not a lot of passion here even though I read the thread every night after work.
  • Post # 166 offered help in what the Henderson class did in regard to pro's driving. Also asked when first official OD regatta would take place.
Now as far as if the FTs have had an official OD regatta or not, is something the class can answer.



Just so you know where I'm coming from here is some of the OD racing I've done in the last few years.

Wavelength 24s: This is a class where the boats are quite different due to them being PHRFimatized over the last 15 years. Is the racing good even though the boats are not equal?...I think the answer is yes. Even though boats aren't weighed, crew sizes are not controlled and sails aren't measured or controlled in terms of the number bought, it seems like the best sailed boat usually wins in a regatta. 100 of these boats were built and the boats do great in handicap racing and they are able to muster 3 or 4 regatta's a year, with 15 boats on the line. Another thing about this class is that they are a pretty tight knit group. They get along pretty well on the water.



S2 7.9s: These are sometimes called the Rolls Royce of small sailing vessels. About 550 of these have been built. Most major regatta's east of the Mississippi can usually attract enough boats for their own start. Now when these boats are racing NOODS ect, they are kinda racing OD. The boats aren't weighed,sails aren't measured or checked for sail buy limitations and owner driver rules are not rigidly enforced. I would call this a OD open regatta since not all the rules written by the anal members are enforced though the spirit of the class is there. Now when the class has a official or closed regatta they follow their rules to the T. They weigh boats every few years, measure sails, make sure owner is member of class and drives ect. They follow all their published rules. This class with the mixture of open and closed as I call them regatta's is doing very well in my opinion after 25 years. They can still put 30 boats on the line. Oh Yea, They also have some pro sailor owners in the class. They kick everybodies ass. They do it right though. They give much more to the class than they take out of it. The Fts would be extremely lucky if they get some class act pro'e like the 7.9 class has.



Also, I have sailed the Henderson 30 in one design. They attempted a very rigid rule that controlled those who sailed on the boat. Pro's, Non owner drivers, crew weights, sail purchases ect were all controlled and attempted to enforce. Now we know that for all practical purposes that the OD racing for this boat is done. With 35 boats built, and having them spread from Finland to Hawaii, and Nova Scotia to the Caribbean, the ability to consistently sail these boats OD is limited. Kinda a bummer but this boat is now for the most parts a handicap boat even though we are racing in Texas in the fall.



Ultimate 20s:

I've sailed three regatta's on these boats over the last year. They have a set of published rules, but that is about as far as it goes. They rely on each other to follow the rules. They don't measure sails, weigh boats or crew at all. They expect their rules to be followed. They have some pretty intense racing going on in their fleet, but when they hit the shore they seem to get along great. The rockstars are very open with their setups and on the water observations, and they seem to have a great thing going. They are able to put close to 30 boats on the line also. If the FTs can pull off what they got going, they will be lucky.



Now the FT:

We are close to thirty boats delivered. That's good. A buddy of mine will probably take delivery of one in late summer. That is good. As I have stated in this forum earlier, If 300 boats are sold, I will probably buy one also. I Some of you will think that is good and some of you won't. :o If you get 300 floating the class will probably be around in 20 years. That is good too. I believe that a combination of strictly rule enforced OD regatta's and regatta's with the rules relaxed will be good for the class also. As far as weather you have had a strictly enforced regatta yet???? I don't think so. And I wouldn't be in a real hurry to run one as a class yet if I was involved. I think the first time you run a True totally by the rules regatta that you will need to work with the members way ahead of time so that when everybody shows up that pretty much all will make it through the measuring/weighing/equipment issues with no major surprises. It would be a shame to read about all the issues on SA about those that had to stay up all night working on their boats, or having sails recut, or not being able to use certain sails because they didn't understand the rules. Or worse yet, not being able to sail. I would think your first true OD regatta should be well thought out, with way to much communication to the members and run by a really good club who has done this before.



So Mr. akaGP, and others,help me out. This is kinda like group therapy. I know that the truth will set me free.



I think Mr Eerie has an agenda here because_____________.

Mr. Eerie is a _____________ because _________________. :unsure:

I think Mr. Eerie ______________ Flying Tigers.
:o

TTFN

#169 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:34 PM

BS? Like your ability to spell or think logically about anything? Sell a tiller? Oh yeah, that would work. Gee, everyone would nod in agreement with that. Even the J105's allow that.

yeah like I said pure bullshit, I'm going to let who ever I want drive, not payin' em, they want to drive, they gonna drive, they need to own part of the boat to beat this bullshit rule, fuck I'll sell em part of the fuckin' boat, as far as your fucked up bullshit spelling problem, go phuqe yourself!
Like I said define "Pro"
Define "Owership"
designate the proper % of ownership to be able to drive it.
BULLSHIT!!!

like the attitude?

find something like movin' the mast step around from the factory position, fairing barn doors, flat boarding the hull, fairing the keel and rudder, excess crew weight during a reggatta and nothing done about it,,,,,,
yeah there ain't no fuckin' rule here but how fuckin' big your fuckin' little bitty wallet IS!!!

#170 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:56 PM

guess you figured out by now, I come by the nickname "Hindgrinder" honestly, ;)

#171 akaGP

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Posted 22 April 2007 - 04:57 PM

Now as far as if the FTs have had an official OD regatta or not, is something the class can answer.

Just so you know where I'm coming from here is some of the OD racing I've done in the last few years.

Tell you what,

I'll take yoour word regarding 'some of the OD racing I've done in the last few years"

if you accept the facts stated on this thread by participants who sailed in the FT10 OD regattas.

#172 eerie sailor

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 02:12 AM

Tell you what,

I'll take yoour word regarding 'some of the OD racing I've done in the last few years"

if you accept the facts stated on this thread by participants who sailed in the FT10 OD regattas.



OK :blink:

#173 DoRag

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 03:28 PM

yeah like I said pure bullshit, I'm going to let who ever I want drive, not payin' em, they want to drive, they gonna drive, they need to own part of the boat to beat this bullshit rule, fuck I'll sell em part of the fuckin' boat, as far as your fucked up bullshit spelling problem, go phuqe yourself!
Like I said define "Pro"
Define "Owership"
designate the proper % of ownership to be able to drive it.
BULLSHIT!!!

like the attitude?

find something like movin' the mast step around from the factory position, fairing barn doors, flat boarding the hull, fairing the keel and rudder, excess crew weight during a reggatta and nothing done about it,,,,,,
yeah there ain't no fuckin' rule here but how fuckin' big your fuckin' little bitty wallet IS!!!


Anyone know what he is talking about?

#174 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:25 AM

Well just for the sake of argument, I've just signed my entire ownership percentage over to another skipper, so please show me in the rule book just how much of the boat must be owned by a partner to determin ownership?

#175 Clewless

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:27 AM

Where are you going with this?

Clew

#176 QMN

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:44 AM

Well just for the sake of argument, I've just signed my entire ownership percentage over to another skipper, so please show me in the rule book just how much of the boat must be owned by a partner to determin ownership?


Hope your skipper doesn't run off with "his" newly acquired boat.

#177 TheBoathouse

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 03:28 AM

Farr 40 Rules:

Application For Helmsman
All helmsmen shall fill out this form and submit it to the Farr 40 Helmsman Eligibility Review Committee (“the F40 Committee”) for approval to become eligible for participation in sanctioned Farr 40 Class events.

Owners: The Farr 40 One Design Class adopts the Corinthian spirit of amateurism with an emphasis on the amateur owner driving his or her own boat. Approved owner helmsmen are permitted to drive any Farr 40 One Design boat. Charterers and immediate family members shall be considered owners for the purposes of this rule however chartering helmsman shall be eligible to drive only for the event approved by the F40 Committee. Charterers are not permitted substitute helmsman except under extraordinary circumstances as approved by the F40 Committee. For helming in designated one design distance races, please reference Farr 40 One Design Class Rule 1.2. The monetary amount of ownership for helmsman eligibility for a Farr 40 with more than one owner shall be established by the Farr 40 Executive Committee. The onus of proof of payment shall be on the helmsman applicant, accountable to the Farr 40 Committee. Relief helmsman: Approved relief helmsmen shall be nominated two weeks prior to a class event on the Sail/Crew Declaration Form (Appendix 5) submitted to Stagg Yachts. One approved relief helmsman per boat may relieve an owner at the helm during a Farr 40 class event except that they may not start, finish, steer around or within a two boat length radius of any marks or before the beginning of the third leg of any race. Relief helmsmen shall be permitted to steer during only one leg of any course which is 5 legs or shorter and shall be permitted to steer during only two legs of any course longer than 5 legs. Relief helmsmen may not steer on the last leg of any course. If an exceptional circumstance arises and the owner must give up the helm beyond the limits of this rule, the Protest Committee or Jury shall be informed in writing by the owner and may, at its sole discretion, waive this rule for the specific race if it believes the spirit of the rule has not been violated. Relief helmsmen need not be members of the class association.
Substitute helmsman: In special instances owners may not be able to drive their own boat in a class event. These owners shall submit an application for a substitute helmsman to the F40 Committee for approval at least two weeks prior to such events. Substitute helmsmen shall be members of the class association.
Following are the criteria for all helmsmen:
1. Group 1 Classification status (as determined under the current version of the ISAF Sailor's Classification Code, with exception noted in Class Rule 1.1).
2. The driver shall not have competed in the Olympic Games within the past eight (8) years as a helmsman or crew.
3. The driver shall not have competed on an America 's Cup team or associated trial team in the America 's Cup trials or finals within the past eight (8) years as a helmsman or crew.
4. The driver shall not be eligible if he or she has won two or more World Championships within the past six (6) years as a helmsman in ISAF or ORC International or Recognized classes, except as an amateur owner/driver of a Farr 40 One Design.
5. The Relief or Substitute driver shall be a minimum of 30 years of age, with the exception of immediate family members of Farr 40 owners. (There is no minimum age requirement for owner drivers.)
6. The driver shall not have competed in a Whitbread Race or Volvo Ocean Race within the past eight (8) years as a principal helmsman.
7. The driver shall not have competed in the Admiral's Cup within the past eight (8) years as a principal helmsman, except as an amateur owner/driver of a Farr 40 One Design.
8. The Substitute driver shall have a proven long-term background with the owner.
Notwithstanding all of the above, an owner not meeting all of the requirements of Appendix 8 may be found by a majority vote of the F40 Committee to meet the Corinthian intent and spirit of the Farr 40 One Design Class Helmsman Rule, and therefore be approved as a helmsman. Further, an applicant meeting the above criteria must also fit the Corinthian intent and spirit of the Farr 40 Class, as determined by the F40 Committee. Individual committee member votes shall be confidential.
Commencing in the year 2000, rulings of the F40 Committee for relief drivers shall be valid for two calendar years, provided that there is no material change in the activity, circumstances, or achievement from that submitted in the original application during that period. Approved owner drivers need not reapply provided there are no material changes from the original application. Substitute or Chartering helmsman shall be eligible to drive only for the event approved by the F40 Committee or for a longer period of time if designated by the F40 Committee.
If at any time the F40 Committee determines that the information submitted to it by or on behalf of a proposed helmsman is incorrect, incomplete or misleading, or that there has been a failure to report a change in classification status, it may withdraw and declare void the approval of that helmsman. The F40 class measurer shall promptly notify the race committee of action taken under this provision, under the terms of RRS 78.3, when that action occurs during a regatta.
Please return your completed application and a copy of your ISAF Sailor's Classification Determination to:
Farr 40 Class Secretary Stagg Yachts 107-G Annapolis Street Annapolis, MD 21401 (410) 268-1001 phone (410) 268-1137 fax

#178 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 12:22 PM

ok, if the new partner's name is on the title for the boat, is that enough ownership of an FT10 to drive it?

#179 Capt'n Hindgrinder

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 01:27 PM

Well, it's been fun stirin' the pot, dosen't matter who or what, cause, know what?
I don't own or even have part ownership in a Tiger, I'm just a person that was asked to get a few things done for an owner.
Sorry for the turmoil, I'm goin' cruisin', got a Tayana 37, and I'm headed to the south pacific for a few years, you all enjoy this race boat, it's a fast and pretty boat,,,

Ta Ta for now!

Hindgrinder "OUT!"

#180 TheBoathouse

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 01:31 PM

Well, it's been fun stirin' the pot, dosen't matter who or what, cause, know what?
I don't own or even have part ownership in a Tiger, I'm just a person that was asked to get a few things done for an owner.
Sorry for the turmoil, I'm goin' cruisin', got a Tayana 37, and I'm headed to the south pacific for a few years, you all enjoy this race boat, it's a fast and pretty boat,,,Ta Ta for now! Hindgrinder "OUT!"


Douche Bag

#181 d'ranger

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 01:41 PM

Well, it's been fun stirin' the pot, dosen't matter who or what, cause, know what?
I don't own or even have part ownership in a Tiger, I'm just a person that was asked to get a few things done for an owner.
Sorry for the turmoil, I'm goin' cruisin', got a Tayana 37, and I'm headed to the south pacific for a few years, you all enjoy this race boat, it's a fast and pretty boat,,,

Ta Ta for now!

Hindgrinder "OUT!"


would you mind taking BIAM with you?

#182 The Winner

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 01:52 PM

Well, it's been fun stirin' the pot, dosen't matter who or what, cause, know what?
I don't own or even have part ownership in a Tiger, I'm just a person that was asked to get a few things done for an owner.
Sorry for the turmoil, I'm goin' cruisin', got a Tayana 37, and I'm headed to the south pacific for a few years, you all enjoy this race boat, it's a fast and pretty boat,,,

Ta Ta for now!

Hindgrinder "OUT!"


Good for a moment there i thought about having to come up with an anti CHUMP provision in the bylaws

#183 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:11 PM

would you mind taking BIAM with you?



Second that.

#184 Christian

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 03:20 AM

would you mind taking BIAM with you?



and DoggieDooragger

#185 DoRag

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 04:14 PM

and DoggieDooragger


You don't sound to well educated.

#186 dolphinmaster

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 12:31 AM

You don't sound to well educated.


then it must be doucherag

#187 DoRag

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Posted 02 May 2007 - 02:56 PM

then it must be doucherag



You got no game Newbie.

Anyone named Dolphinmaster probably ought not to be talkin' trash.




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