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#1 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:38 AM

From the front page....


Question of the Week

Bullshit Moves

I've always been a guy who does not like bullshit moves, either on the race course, in the protest room or anywhere else around this sport. I like to sail clean, avoid trouble and almost never start it, unless it is completely necessary.

While racing our Flying Tiger last weekend, we were rounding the only leeward mark in the 9 mile SDYC Opening Day Race. It was a pursuit start and we had passed all the boats except a J/105 that rounded directly in front of us. We stuck our bow up a bit after we rounded to try get a bit of a lane, but like almost any situation like that, there is really no opportunity to do much. But instead of just sailing away, or even in a slight pinch mode, the 105 stuck it up, parking them and us. I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

It was stupid, and in my mind, while not particularly egregious, a classic example of a bullshit move. He slowed to a crawl with one goal only - fuck us. We couldn't have gone over him, and had he had the boat in normal upwind mode, would have sailed away and then could have pinched us off later if he wanted. But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack and it pissed me off.

So the question of the week is, can you tell us about a bullshit move that has been pulled on you? Or maybe you've pulled one on someone else? Bring it! Oh yeah, and have fun.


04/25/07

#2 Pete M

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:52 AM

shoot Ed, that's the prob with pursuit races - gotta get thru the back markers - stay way wide.

Not too much of that happens in the front of the fleet, where everybody is supposed to know how the game is played

#3 Ringmaster

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:02 AM

One Wednesday night we were only 50 yards from the finish sailing on port with a J24 to leward and slightly ahead. We were both going to make the line. We owed the J24 time so he had it made. The putz tacks forcing us to tack. A true bullshit move. BTW, this is a guy who never seems to bring his motor and never has lights after dark. (no battery)

#4 moorphined

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:09 AM

Here's the obvious one for you, over early in a fleet I usually do pretty decent in. On the way through the fleet on the first of many legs. One particular boat gets excited to be in front of me. Mind you we're in about 15th out of 30 so nothing to write home about. Boat starts tacking on me in tight cover to the point that we are both doing down speed tacks and not going in the right direction as the front of the fleet starts to stretch. This stuff used to drive me crazy. Now I just write it off as back of the pack syndrome and try not to have bad starts.

#5 Frumious Bandersnatch

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:10 AM

It is a bush league move, but you had to tack away anyhow so tack and bail out. Forget about 'em.

#6 WhereTodaySkip?

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:46 AM

Port to port in sight of the finish. Ahead of us is a vastly earlier starting T-10 who is third in his fleet at that time. A much bigger, much faster vessel is rolling up on his hip. Looks like the fast boat will roll him to winward but close and quick. The T-10 takes him up...and up...and up. Big boat eventually dives down without having lost fleet position (2nd.). T-10 went from third to seventh. In the bar afterward I'm flirting with a young lady and it turns out she races on a different T-10. I inquire as to the mind set that would make that choice. All she says is "Never try to roll a T-10." She said that repeatedly. Go figure.

#7 Frumious Bandersnatch

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:57 AM

The other BS move is when you dive down and the prick dives down too, illegal but they don't realize it is illegal and block you anyway. Time to take 'em to the ROOM. It sucks but thats the only way some jerks learn the rules.

#8 FastHolder20

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:03 AM

Watching a local cut in line at the hoist. I guess getting to the bar in time to see Matt Lock is more important than not being a d!ck to some out of town boats that have mega drives in front of them. Welcome to our yacht club. Please come back again..................

Fast

#9 russell_miller

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:15 AM

truth be told gouv,

fleet rules are written based on avoidance. using the rules as a weapon is called either match or team racing. hacks that do this type of stuff are breaking the rules in a fleet race.

thats why match racing and team racing is great, everybody understands that its just part of the game. There is a gentleman's agreement to not be gentlemen. Whereas with fleet racing its a gentleman's agreement to be gentlemen.

#10 SparxFly

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:22 AM

I think there is a big diference between stupid moves (like the T-10 stuffing it) and bullshit moves, (like the guy who can't execute a gybe after trying to be cute and drapes his spinnaker over a competitor then doesn't do his turns - I hope you followed through on your protest!)

As for Ed's situation, I gotta agree with Gouvernail that his move was legitimate, even if it standing up and focusing on your boat was obnoxious. You've got a lighter (and hopefully faster) boat, so tack away and school him that way.

I know... you were worried about the bigger faster boats trying to track you down, but don't sink to his level.

Sparx

#11 Bad Sandwhich

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:59 AM

DUH! its a sport.

End of story.

Grow up.

BS

#12 LeftSA

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:40 AM

Isn't the big factor here the difference between the two boats:

E.g.1. A faster boat in a different class. You steer your fastest course without trying to fuck them up, but don't give way just cos they're bigger.

E.g.2. One of the leaders in your fleet, that you're nowhere near on the results page, trying to lap you. Ditto above.

E.g.3. Same guy as in 2, but you're on the same lap. Game on - If you beat this guy it's a result for you.

E.g.4. Anyone in the same fleet, near you on the leaderboard. Game on, balls out, all guns blazing.

#13 eastcoastdude

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:48 AM

bullshit thread. get a life. tack and sail right past. i thought you said it was a pursuit race. you are faster. it is your job to overtake him not his job to let you through.

to the guy who reckons that he has a right to his Championship result going into the last race. no way. you have to earn it. it is called fleet racing and you have to sail the fleet dickheads and all. if you were any good you would have been well ahead and would not have had the problem that you had to deal with. so you are not so good and have to fight for it. life sucks.

#14 dogwatch

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:04 AM

It is the final race of a seven race series


So you are saying he is not entitled to attempt to beat you in the final race because you are in contention for a podium position overall and he isn't? I call "bullshit".

#15 us7070

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:16 AM

I think you are all complaining too much.

If the move is illegal, protest - if not, live with it. There's always another race.

There's way to much whining in this sport.

#16 sherpa

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:35 AM

One year at Key West I was crewing for a pro known for his aggressiveness. On the last day, we approached the weather mark with the 2 leaders of another class. The pro chose to go a little wide and let the guys in since stuffing them served no purpose and these guys were in a battle.

I have always remembered that consideration.

The antithesis of a bullshit move.

#17 waterboy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:36 AM

Oh come on ED.

Sould the guy just let you sail by? If it's a pursuit race and he was the only boat in front of you- Man I would have camped on you the rest of the race. Why would he just let you go? It is a race for criminy sake, maybe he should just go home any time you get close. Better yet why doesn't everyone just let you sail on the course by yourself so you can get first in a fleet of one.

#18 Lazy Guy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:36 AM

Too quote the great Randle Patrick McMurphy


"Play the game, Hard On."

#19 BaDaBing!

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:52 AM

I think you are all complaining too much.

If the move is illegal, protest - if not, live with it. There's always another race.

There's way to much whining in this sport.



Hear hear :P

#20 lofty

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 10:55 AM

Whiner.

#21 dogwatch

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 11:11 AM

shoot Ed, that's the prob with pursuit races - gotta get thru the back markers - stay way wide. Not too much of that happens in the front of the fleet, where everybody is supposed to know how the game is played


Except that if you read Ed's account, he is attempting to pass the leading boat at this point.

#22 maggie40738

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 11:57 AM

Ed - "But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack"

If he thinks the left is favored forcing you to tack seems like a pretty smart move to me.

The only BS move is Ed using the power of SA to whine about a getting schooled.

#23 gasmandew

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 11:58 AM

Ancient History.. but has stuck in my craw ever since......

spring Series race - Galveston bay in the 80's. We were racing PHRF on an S-2 7.9 and their were some J-24's that rated the same (168). We were leading the series and one guy (nickname: fuzz nuts because his head look like a scrotum - we think he was an early tester of rogaine) in his J-24 was within a point or two of us. It is the last race and conditions are bumpy with about 18 knots of breeze. We are in the lead by 20 boat lengths over fuzz nuts and its the last downwind run to the finish and a bullet and the spring series championship for our class. We vaguely hear some yelling coming from fuzz nuts J-24 but pay him no attention because beers are being passed up from the companionway. For those of you who have not sailed an S-2 7.9 dead downwind in rolling bumpy conditions, the daggerboard needs to stay all the way down or close to it because the boat rolls like crazy and in this instace, it was causing our spinnaker pole to slip down the guy and away from the clew every time we rolled. No real advantage to flying the kite with the pole tip off the clew. No intention of doing so. Conditions were such that when the boat rolled, the pole came off the clew....... Fuzznuts protested that we were intentionally flying the kite with the clew off the pole... race committee bought his bullshit.... he wins the race and the series.........
Have detested the man ever since.

#24 sylkill

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:08 PM

It was several years ago... but still fresh in my mind !

Start of coastal race, south brittany, France. We are on a Sprint 108 - good weather - good mood. Chance is with us - we are well located on the line, going full speed, and we cross the line in 1st rank at 10 knts. All the race goes smooth (hard sail, but still 1st ahead of several much bigger boats) and we cross the finish line in 1st position, winning all classes.
But... umpires were waiting for us : one skipper protested against us for "dangerous start" : he was resting on the starting line with no speed at all, and has been very frightened by the boats going fast and very close to his poor nut, and the only numbers he got was ours. :ph34r:

Conclusion : 50% penalty on final rank for us - and funniest thing : this guy was the only other representative of our sailing club !!! :blink:

#25 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:17 PM

Tough fucking Titty ED!

He got on your nerves with a legit move and put you off your race? Good on him, he wins this episode.

Next time duck him or do a couple of quick tacks and "Buffalo Girl" him, and kick his Ass.

Quit Bitching, Bitch!

#26 RATM

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:32 PM

Tough fucking Titty ED!

He got on your nerves with a legit move and put you off your race? Good on him, he wins this episode.

Next time duck him or do a couple of quick tacks and "Buffalo Girl" him, and kick his Ass.

Quit Bitching, Bitch!


I agree with this guy, where any rules broken? If so, why didn't you protest?

#27 This Is My Alternate Identity

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:34 PM

Yup, me too. What rule was broken? It was a pursuit race for crying out loud. You caught with him and he executed a move that prevented you from overtaking. Sure, perhaps with your superior boat and sailing skills you may eventually overtake. But, this skipper just held off the inevitable by holding you up a bit. Sounds like competition to me.

#28 brown scented bilgewax

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:07 PM

Here are my favorites from last year.

If you are a national champion who gets stuck in the back of a 40 boat fleet, and call for a 720 on a port/starboard crossing while in 3rd to last. Bullshit move.

If you are in a 70 boat fleet and your technique for rounding every mark is to barge in screaming regardless of any overlap and start waving your protest flag (which mysteriously disappears before the next rounding, only to come out again) trying to intimidate people into letting you in. Bullshit move.

If after a race in a 40 boat fleet there are 5 protests to be heard and you are one of two skippers who is responsible for filing all of them (one guy filed 3 the other 2)... and neither of you is even in the top 2/3 of the fleet... Bullshit move.

Probably some that disagree, but I'm a big believer in leave the flag in the bag, unless it affects the outcome of the regatta.

#29 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:14 PM

Yes there was a rule broken - the rule of not being a prick. It was a chump move, but here's what really pissed me off - we tacked away, sailed into some light air, came back and had lost at least 30 boat lengths! We went on to crush them, but it still frosted my ass.

#30 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:17 PM

Boo fucking Hoo!

#31 Slyguy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:20 PM

So he forced you to lose 30 bl's in one "bullshit" move? Sorry ed, he fuckin schooled you at the mark. Sure you got him in the end, but he certainly helped to minimize his lost by seeing and sending you into some light air, you were so focused on making fun of his sailing style that you neglected to pay him the respect that he deserves.

You got taught a lesson by someone who you might not have a huge amount of respect for, THAT is whats frosting your ass.

#32 This Is My Alternate Identity

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:26 PM

So he forced you to lose 30 bl's in one "bullshit" move? Sorry ed, he fuckin schooled you at the mark. Sure you got him in the end, but he certainly helped to minimize his lost by seeing and sending you into some light air, you were so focused on making fun of his sailing style that you neglected to pay him the respect that he deserves.

You got taught a lesson by someone who you might not have a huge amount of respect for, THAT is whats frosting your ass.


Now that we've heard even more of the facts, this sounds like a very good summation.

#33 SemiSalt

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:29 PM

I don't know the Ed. Never met him. Maybe never met anyone who ever met him. Only know him from the SA, and maybe he is different in person, but he comes across as a very angry person with serious issues.

On the subject of the T-10 getting rolled or not, I take issue with the possibiltiy of being rolled "but close and quick". I think being rolled costs 100 yards minimum. But in fleet race, the thing to do to minimize the damage is to get to windward early.

#34 jo-mama

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:32 PM

yawn...

when you run with the big dogs you get used to the big bark.


scamper along little doggy

#35 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:51 PM

So he forced you to lose 30 bl's in one "bullshit" move? Sorry ed, he fuckin schooled you at the mark. Sure you got him in the end, but he certainly helped to minimize his lost by seeing and sending you into some light air, you were so focused on making fun of his sailing style that you neglected to pay him the respect that he deserves.

You got taught a lesson by someone who you might not have a huge amount of respect for, THAT is whats frosting your ass.


Bullshit. He could not have under any circumstances known that we would lose 30 boat lengths in just a few short minutes. He didn't "school" me - he sailed like a jackass and we ended up getting fucked from it.

#36 JDL

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:56 PM

Bullshit. He could not have under any circumstances known that we would lose 30 boat lengths in just a few short minutes. He didn't "school" me - he sailed like a jackass and we ended up getting fucked from it.


Wasn't it reasonable to expect a hard luff in any case? From your description, I would have tacked earlier vs later. Why did you let your boatspeed drop so much? And reciprocity holds, if you see him looking at you, you are obviously looking at him!

You might have gotten fucked but it wasn't exactly rape.

#37 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:59 PM

I don't know the Ed. Never met him. Maybe never met anyone who ever met him. Only know him from the SA, and maybe he is different in person, but he comes across as a very angry person with serious issues.

On the subject of the T-10 getting rolled or not, I take issue with the possibiltiy of being rolled "but close and quick". I think being rolled costs 100 yards minimum. But in fleet race, the thing to do to minimize the damage is to get to windward early.


You're right, you don't know me, amd if you did, you wouldn't say some ridiculous statement about "serious issues." Angry? guys like you piss me off. Got anything else to say, genius?

#38 surf nazi

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:01 PM

From the front page....
Question of the Week

Bullshit Moves

I've always been a guy who does not like bullshit moves, either on the race course, in the protest room or anywhere else around this sport. I like to sail clean, avoid trouble and almost never start it, unless it is completely necessary.

While racing our Flying Tiger last weekend, we were rounding the only leeward mark in the 9 mile SDYC Opening Day Race. It was a pursuit start and we had passed all the boats except a J/105 that rounded directly in front of us. We stuck our bow up a bit after we rounded to try get a bit of a lane, but like almost any situation like that, there is really no opportunity to do much. But instead of just sailing away, or even in a slight pinch mode, the 105 stuck it up, parking them and us. I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

It was stupid, and in my mind, while not particularly egregious, a classic example of a bullshit move. He slowed to a crawl with one goal only - fuck us. We couldn't have gone over him, and had he had the boat in normal upwind mode, would have sailed away and then could have pinched us off later if he wanted. But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack and it pissed me off.

So the question of the week is, can you tell us about a bullshit move that has been pulled on you? Or maybe you've pulled one on someone else? Bring it! Oh yeah, and have fun.
04/25/07


Maybe the biggest bullshit move I've seen in a while is posting about someone luffing you in a phrf pursuit race. Woop-de-freakin-do. You stick your snout up on a slower boat's weather hip and they're just supposed to let you roll them ? And you get pissed off about it ? They probably know that you're easily irritated and just did it to watch you blow up. You put yourself in a position to be controlled by the leeward boat and now you're trashing the dude who controlled you with a legal move on the biggest sailing website in the world. I'm afraid I've got to call that a BS move.

#39 SemiSalt

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:03 PM

You're right, you don't know me, amd if you did, you wouldn't say some ridiculous statement about "serious issues." Angry? guys like you piss me off. Got anything else to say, genius?



Add "and a sense of humor."

#40 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:05 PM

Wasn't it reasonable to expect a hard luff in any case? From your description, I would have tacked earlier vs later. Why did you let your boatspeed drop so much? And reciprocity holds, if you see him looking at you, you are obviously looking at him!

You might have gotten fucked but it wasn't exactly rape.


True, like I said, it wasn't particularly egregious, but the end result did cost us. When I saw that he had stuck the boat into the wind, I looked down to see what he was doing, and there he was, tiller in the air, looking at us, instead of sailing his own boat. In retrospect, I should have just dove under him when I had the chance, but though we got screwed it might be a bit of a learning experience, and that is why I asked for some of you tell your stories.

#41 US32Wet

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:05 PM

Bullshit. He could not have under any circumstances known that we would lose 30 boat lengths in just a few short minutes. He didn't "school" me - he sailed like a jackass and we ended up getting fucked from it.



Boo Hoo what a fucking whinner, it was a J105 right what do you expect from them, keep well clear you never know when they will do something stupid. Thought these FT's were meant to be OD by now anyway. Or are the turbo'd ones not allowed to race OD?

#42 jo-mama

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:07 PM

Posted Image

#43 Al.

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:08 PM

Bullshit. He could not have under any circumstances known that we would lose 30 boat lengths in just a few short minutes. He didn't "school" me - he sailed like a jackass and we ended up getting fucked from it.

Just to repeat what someone else was querying- he was leading, you were second, in a pursuit, and you're the faster boat, yes? I really don't see why you can complain about being match raced in this situation.

#44 DEAD MONEY

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:09 PM

This was not some silly beer can race right?? With your wife driving and your son trimming jib, right?? You had your "A" team, right?? I think deep down your pissed at yourself to some extent (and rightly so) for not anticipating someone you thought does not sail up to your caliper, stuffing you at a mark rounding and of course (I am so surprised no one has said it yet) in a J105. Yea you got him in the end but he was supposed to lie down and make it easy with no frustration, right??

Yup it was a dick move but put yourself in his place, wouldn't you do it if you could have???? You also forget that you and the FT10 are a marked man (and boat),kind of like Mike Tyson in jail, everyone wants to fight him and beat him to make a name for themselves. Anytime anyone can beat you or make life hard they know they will read it here....shit if I was racing you I might be tempted to ram you (hahhahaha) to piss you off and make it into SA fame (just kidding). Everyone wants to win but to beat the ED is huge for some and they will do anything to do it including dick moves especially if it pisses him off.

#45 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:17 PM

Boo Hoo what a fucking whinner, it was a J105 right what do you expect from them, keep well clear you never know when they will do something stupid. Thought these FT's were meant to be OD by now anyway. Or are the turbo'd ones not allowed to race OD?


Right-o about the 105's - my bad. Turbo? You mean optimized? There were two FT's entered in the race...

#46 Slyguy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:22 PM

Sour grapes ed.

Is the reason that he could not "under any circumstances" see the light spot he forced YOU into because YOU FAILED to notice it?

That seems to be the only reasonable basis for such a claim about what he was or was not able to do "under any circumstances"..

In your original post you said he would have sped away from you and been able to pinch you off later. The big question now is whether he would have gained the same number of boatlengths in the same amount if time (or distance up the course) using your tactical advice, or whether his method ended up being a better call?

Maybe you need to buy this guy a beer and ask him how he spotted that hole he sent you to.

#47 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, he can see things like that. Sure he can. He was too busy staring at us while he went almost head to wind. It was plain luck, bad for us. You're high.

#48 closehauled

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:32 PM

Strangely enough, the rules allow for several situations where you are allowed and encouraged to be a dick (ever push someone over the line). Part of sailing fast is to stay out of situations where a dick can screw you. Ed went for the gusto and got burned!

#49 RATM

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:32 PM

The ed has taken his "bar rant" to the internet. This is the part of our sport that I can't stand: The guy that takes it to "the protest room of public opinion"

#50 russell_miller

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:33 PM

wow, so dude, what you're telling all of us right now, is that we play mean towards you once in a series, and your panties get so bunched up you become inoperable the rest of the event. yeah, it wasn't noble, oh well. please get over this and find some better material.

#51 us7070

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:39 PM

Also, from the 105's perspective, it's generally useful to make sure everyone knows that they can't just have their way with you all over the race course - especially at the start and at mark roundings, but also in normal W/L situations on the run.

This true in one design, and in mixed fleet racing.

I doubt the Ed will try this move against the same boat again - unless he is sure he can pull it off.

#52 DoRag

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:44 PM

You guys all miss the point.

The fact is that a J105 was ahead of the ED.

Now, that would piss anyone off.

#53 Wess

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:44 PM

Yes there was a rule broken - the rule of not being a prick. It was a chump move, but here's what really pissed me off - we tacked away, sailed into some light air, came back and had lost at least 30 boat lengths! We went on to crush them, but it still frosted my ass.

He forced you to tack the wrong way into a hole. How is trying to beat you by sending you the wrong way being a prick? You think he should instead let you sail over the top of him on the favored side.... why exactly?? :unsure: :unsure:

#54 Chris J/105

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:44 PM

Sorry Ed--but you are whining a bit. Maybe you just need a hug.

I agree there are some real BS artists racing out there and it's our job to beat them anyway. Sail faster and smarter and quieter.

#55 Editor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:52 PM

I forgot that people sail like tools and use the excuse that "this is how its done in OD". I'll remember that for next time. Gotta run for now.

#56 Bobsled

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:57 PM

Somewhere in So-Cal there's a J/105 skipper reading this with a smile on his face, knowing he got just the reaction he hoped for.

#57 russell_miller

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:58 PM

you can't admit you're wrong can you?

#58 walterbshaffer

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:59 PM

I can see both sides of this.

When I raced 420s I spent the first half of the first season fighting with anybody who came near me: tacking duels, luffing duels, gybing duels...you name it, I did it.

Yep, I intentionally threw a lot of races, but everyone learned that staying away from me was probably faster than sailing near me, and in the meantime I improved my boat handing abilities to the point where the kinetics of tacking & gybing was actually faster than straight lining it.

So I say "Bullshit move? I don't think so." It's a chance to engage in a real world tacking & luffing duel. Seek these out; engage them, win them, benefit from them, become the terror of the fleet. Watch your skills soar and watch everyone stay away from you because everyone will learn that staying away from you is probably faster than sailing near you.

Anyone who's been there knows that some regattas come down to just 2 boats who fight furiously all races, all beats, all the time and that these are the best regattas. No other boats, no outside influences, no excuses or reasons "why" and no so called "bullshit moves". Its a battle.

What that guy did was legal. You should have just taken him on and then taken him out. Then who's the loser? Do it again and the next time he'll stay away from you, plus you improve you boat handling skills. nothing like clean air and the ability to keep it that way.

Boy do I miss that kinda crap.

#59 redboat

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:11 PM

He challenged you, you crushed him. No rules violated, no obscenities exchanged, no contact, no boarding parties & slashing sabers. Oh, whilst watching to make certain you responded in case he had to avoid contact you objected to the way he appeared to look at you. Perhaps he was amazed to discover that it was indeed the legendary ED and he became terrified.

Almost feel sorry for your competitor. Played the game in a meaningless pursuit race and is hauled out on the front page of a national, I mean international forum.

Let this be a warning to everyone in SD.

#60 PF Flyer

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:14 PM

Prestart Melges 24.........about 40 boats and lots of wind. Had some close racing with a Norcal boat the last 2 regattas. Sequence starts but we're about 3-4 minutes before the gun with all boats reaching along the line. Heavy traffic....we're on port and he's on starboard. He sees us and turns (kamikaze like) into us so we have to veer up suddenly to avoid the crash. Dickhead.....with a bad reputation

#61 Bill Roue

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:15 PM

Part of sailing fast is to stay out of situations where a dick can screw you.

So true. Far too many dick apologists on here though. Just because he could luff doesn't make it kosher. If in every handicap race slower boats luffed faster boats head to wind, simply because they can, you'd understand. Think big picture.

It's equally wank of the 105 to be in a situation where they had to wank luff like that. Slowing down deliberately in a handicap race works against the goal.

#62 j24vt

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:17 PM

From the front page....
Question of the Week

Bullshit Moves

I've always been a guy who does not like bullshit moves, either on the race course, in the protest room or anywhere else around this sport. I like to sail clean, avoid trouble and almost never start it, unless it is completely necessary.

While racing our Flying Tiger last weekend, we were rounding the only leeward mark in the 9 mile SDYC Opening Day Race. It was a pursuit start and we had passed all the boats except a J/105 that rounded directly in front of us. We stuck our bow up a bit after we rounded to try get a bit of a lane, but like almost any situation like that, there is really no opportunity to do much. But instead of just sailing away, or even in a slight pinch mode, the 105 stuck it up, parking them and us. I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

It was stupid, and in my mind, while not particularly egregious, a classic example of a bullshit move. He slowed to a crawl with one goal only - fuck us. We couldn't have gone over him, and had he had the boat in normal upwind mode, would have sailed away and then could have pinched us off later if he wanted. But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack and it pissed me off.

So the question of the week is, can you tell us about a bullshit move that has been pulled on you? Or maybe you've pulled one on someone else? Bring it! Oh yeah, and have fun.
04/25/07


I don't think that is a bullshit move, I think it is called racing. It would be interesting to hear the other helm's take on the rounding. Sounds like you both wanted to go right and he did what he could to get some separation. I think the other boat was correct in paying attention to you since it sounds like at that point it was a two boat race.

#63 Wess

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:20 PM

I forgot that people sail like tools and use the excuse that "this is how its done in OD". I'll remember that for next time. Gotta run for now.


Put yourself in his shoes. He can't sail high and force you below him and now that you are on his hip he can't tack away. And he should not want to tack away to the other side anyway - its clearly not favored... you said you lost 30 boats. He can however, force you to go that way. The only other option you left him was to let you sail over him and eat your dirty for god knows how long?

Maybe its faster for him to foot away and eat a little less of your dirty, but maybe its faster to luff you and force you to tack away. I don't know, but he seems to have thought it faster to force you away.

Was it a viable option and would it have been faster for you to foot off and go below him rather than get forced to tack into the hole?

#64 some dude

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:27 PM

From the front page....
Question of the Week

Bullshit Moves

I've always been a guy who does not like bullshit moves, either on the race course, in the protest room or anywhere else around this sport. I like to sail clean, avoid trouble and almost never start it, unless it is completely necessary.

While racing our Flying Tiger last weekend, we were rounding the only leeward mark in the 9 mile SDYC Opening Day Race. It was a pursuit start and we had passed all the boats except a J/105 that rounded directly in front of us. We stuck our bow up a bit after we rounded to try get a bit of a lane, but like almost any situation like that, there is really no opportunity to do much. But instead of just sailing away, or even in a slight pinch mode, the 105 stuck it up, parking them and us. I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

It was stupid, and in my mind, while not particularly egregious, a classic example of a bullshit move. He slowed to a crawl with one goal only - fuck us. We couldn't have gone over him, and had he had the boat in normal upwind mode, would have sailed away and then could have pinched us off later if he wanted. But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack and it pissed me off.

So the question of the week is, can you tell us about a bullshit move that has been pulled on you? Or maybe you've pulled one on someone else? Bring it! Oh yeah, and have fun.
04/25/07


lemme guess-Skeletor?
once a prick always a prick

#65 montey_burns

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:28 PM

I can see both sides of this.

When I raced 420s I spent the first half of the first season fighting with anybody who came near me: tacking duels, luffing duels, gybing duels...you name it, I did it.

Yep, I intentionally threw a lot of races, but everyone learned that staying away from me was probably faster than sailing near me, and in the meantime I improved my boat handing abilities to the point where the kinetics of tacking & gybing was actually faster than straight lining it.

So I say "Bullshit move? I don't think so." It's a chance to engage in a real world tacking & luffing duel. Seek these out; engage them, win them, benefit from them, become the terror of the fleet. Watch your skills soar and watch everyone stay away from you because everyone will learn that staying away from you is probably faster than sailing near you.

Anyone who's been there knows that some regattas come down to just 2 boats who fight furiously all races, all beats, all the time and that these are the best regattas. No other boats, no outside influences, no excuses or reasons "why" and no so called "bullshit moves". Its a battle.

What that guy did was legal. You should have just taken him on and then taken him out. Then who's the loser? Do it again and the next time he'll stay away from you, plus you improve you boat handling skills. nothing like clean air and the ability to keep it that way.

Boy do I miss that kinda crap.

Wow, this is a pretty telling post. Have you ever heard the saying you don't win the race unless you win the respect of your competitors? You just dug yourself a pretty deep hole you'll need to get out of before you get anyones respect.

So your saying you identify yourself as the fleet hack so everyone stays out of your way. Then when you get into races with only 2 good sailors you'll be prepared to battle? Have you ever sailed in a fleet with more then 2 good sailors? How about one with 50 good sailors what do you do then? I'll give you a hint. If you aren't focused on clear lanes and where the next shift is coming from your going to be battling it out with one other boat for DFL.

If two boats cross on the course one is going the wrong way. If you slam tack or do a tight leebow on a boat all your doing is giving them the right side of the course because they don't have a choice but to do a hitch. If you want the right then do a loose cover where your allowing them to live while leveraging the correct side of the course. If you want the left tack early and in front, once again leveraging the correct side of the course and letting your comp follow you into a shift that will work for you.. Thats how you pass 10 boats and not 1.

#66 some dude

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:34 PM

Somewhere in So-Cal there's a J/105 skipper reading this with a smile on his face, knowing he got just the reaction he hoped for.



he's in San Diego, he's an ass, and hopefully today he has a toothache and just stubbed his toe. fuck him.

#67 d'ranger

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:40 PM

We stuck our bow up a bit after we rounded to try get a bit of a lane, but like almost any situation like that, there is really no opportunity to do much. But instead of just sailing away, or even in a slight pinch mode, the 105 stuck it up, parking them and us. I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

It was stupid, and in my mind, while not particularly egregious, a classic example of a bullshit move. He slowed to a crawl with one goal only - fuck us. We couldn't have gone over him, and had he had the boat in normal upwind mode, would have sailed away and then could have pinched us off later if he wanted. But no, he pulls this move right after the mark, forced us to tack and it pissed me off.


man, ED you got no friends here - if I were the 105 and thought you were the only boat that could beat me I would have gone into pinch mode to keep you from getting a clean lane and tacked to cover you if you tried to clear (assuming that I would not be giving up the favored position to boats behind me). If this is close to the finish and it is match racing then what he did was smart, if there is an entire leg to go he is screwing himself to get you. Since the FT will accelerate much faster in light air than a 105 it seems like a bonehead move on his part - you were going to get by eventually and he gave time to those behind.

On Galveston Bay our pursuit races have a gentlemans no luffing rule and in January the resident Dickhead sailing nonspin came up very hard to prevent us from passing him - we had to go head to wind hard, collapsing the akite - took his transom and kept our apparent wind going. He wound up parking and letting everyone go by. The year before on on a reach a 105 took us up and down to prevent us from passing. Some guys just have all the fun.

#68 DoRag

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:43 PM

he's in San Diego, he's an ass, and hopefully today he has a toothache and just stubbed his toe. fuck him.


Wrongo. I think it was Nelson on the J105 and that's why the ED is not a happy camper today.

#69 some dude

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:46 PM

man, ED you got no friends here - if I were the 105 and thought you were the only boat that could beat me I would have gone into pinch mode to keep you from getting a clean lane and tacked to cover you if you tried to clear (assuming that I would not be giving up the favored position to boats behind me). If this is close to the finish and it is match racing then what he did was smart, if there is an entire leg to go he is screwing himself to get you. Since the FT will accelerate much faster in light air than a 105 it seems like a bonehead move on his part - you were going to get by eventually and he gave time to those behind.




not so much. Skeletor's smart move there is put the bow down, keep going fast, let the Ed have a lane on his hip, and keep him in contact, when Ed tacks, Wings tacks with him-stay between your man and the hoop. If you've got one guy to cover you dont force him to tack away and give him leverage. that's a stupid Skeletor move. let's review: 1. stay between your man and the hoop. 2. Skeletor is an ass

#70 H20

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:46 PM

I try like hell to persuade anyone rolling me to go under. I go high early and make my intentions plain. I also wave them by to leward. Often I pull the traveller way up. That usually gets the desired effect. Head to wind, never. But I'm not dead yet.

#71 Poole Bouy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 03:59 PM

Maybe?
So in a 9 mile pursuit race, I'm leading as I get to the leeward mark with an FT10 right behind me, the FT10 should beat me on the upwind, so I'm expecting him to tack away and come back over with some separation, or maybe foot off underneath, either way it may cost him a boat length or two, instead he sticks his bow on my hip and tries to roll me tight, so I poke the bow up as a hint, and he just starts yelling at me saying I should foot off and let him screw me, in the end I had to go head to wind before he finally tacked away, in the end it cost him around 30 lengths.

(Ed you were beating the guy anyway, why rub his nose in it.... rolling him tight is kind of a bullshit move in this situation)

#72 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:37 PM

True, like I said, it wasn't particularly egregious, but the end result did cost us. When I saw that he had stuck the boat into the wind, I looked down to see what he was doing, and there he was, tiller in the air, looking at us, instead of sailing his own boat. In retrospect, I should have just dove under him when I had the chance, but though we got screwed it might be a bit of a learning experience, and that is why I asked for some of you tell your stories.


You were in the same fleet, correct?
I would have done what he did too. The "tiller in the air" thing was great psy-ops :P
Live and learn. Did you expect him just to fade away and contemplate the inferiority of his J-boat?
What is a "bullshit move" is when I am in class X finishing the Gov Cup under spinnaker and a boat in class Y insists on having a huge spinnaker dual and costing us both a huge amount of time. WTF???
Or how about this one from way back - long and rough offshore race, competition phones home on the radio to report being about 30 miles AHEAD of us, knowing we would hear it and hoping to screw with us. They are really 30 miles BEHIND us. We finish and relatives from the other boat now have to be restrained from calling the USCG for a SAR mission :angry:

#73 Mr Lahey

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:40 PM

Maybe?
So in a 9 mile pursuit race, I'm leading as I get to the leeward mark with an FT10 right behind me, the FT10 should beat me on the upwind, so I'm expecting him to tack away and come back over with some separation, or maybe foot off underneath, either way it may cost him a boat length or two, instead he sticks his bow on my hip and tries to roll me tight, so I poke the bow up as a hint, and he just starts yelling at me saying I should foot off and let him screw me, in the end I had to go head to wind before he finally tacked away, in the end it cost him around 30 lengths.

(Ed you were beating the guy anyway, why rub his nose in it.... rolling him tight is kind of a bullshit move in this situation)



I agree. Why would the J105 give the FT10 a free lane so they can get rolled ? Even if they do not get rolled assuming this was a port rounding the J105 would be pinned and prevented from tacking to port by the FT10 who would be on starboard. Either way it sounds like the J105 made a defensive move to protect their position.

I sometimes can't believe the mentality of faster boats that expect a free pass to roll slower boats, and get pissed of when the slower boat does something to prevent being rolled. Exactly what occured here from what I have read.

#74 maggie40738

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:43 PM

I forgot that people sail like tools and use the excuse that "this is how its done in OD".


As compared to the way it's done by PHRF heroes who use lightweight performance boats to beat up on older slower boats so they can congratulate themselves on their great sailing abilities? That is when they aren't complaining about the slower boats inconveniencing them by getting in their way.

I'd like to say I'm laughing with you Ed but that would be a lie.

Face it Ed, the only time you were truly racing against the J105 (that is, in the vicinity of each other) he correctly identified the favored side of the course, and bitchslapped you back into oblivion by using a textbook manuever to force you to the wrong side of the course. I suspect that when you eventually came back to beat him it was not because you sailed better than he did, but because the boat you chose to buy was superior to his in those conditions.

#75 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:44 PM

The reall bullshit move here is that the FT10 isn't yet an Olympic class.

#76 Junkyard Dog

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:46 PM

Many years ago, I went down to Corpus to do an ODcircuit regatta. I was sailing with an old buddy who had just bought a boat, and we had very little hope of being anything other than mid fleet.

Sure enough, after a couple of bad starts, we are buried, so we decided to have fun, sail hard, but basically stay out the leaders way and see how much better we can get. So much for planning...

Naturally, we nail the next start, and there we are right in the mix. We ended up within a few boat lenghts of the guy that was in first place, and we wanted to stay close to him to see how he played the waves and the puffs. It was blowing 20 -25, with a short steep chop. Anyway, we put a very loose cover on the guy. Not enough to give him foul air, but enough to let us study his technique. The guy who was in second tacks away and takes our stern. We let him go. Our guy hangs on thinking that we will slam him if he tacks to hang with the other guy. Had he gone then, we would have only kept the very loose cover, but...

We are getting out near the port tack layline, and he wants to go - he's yelling at us to go - we say go ahead. When he finally tacks, we are just about on the layline, so we tack too...

And slam him hard - not really intentionally, but we were now out on the layline. Naturally, the number two guy got the shift out on the right and is coming in on starboard with three other boats - all ahead of us. Was it a bullshit move on our part? We of course didn't think so, but I'm sure it looked and felt like it to him. In retrospect, this would have to be considered a bullshit move.

<edit> We wiped out going downwind, and so dropped back to mid fleet, He went on to finish 4th.

Now then, in the next race, we got a 2nd tier start and bailed out early. In this race, there were so many boats in the middle, that anyone there got hammered. Boats that went to either corner - especially on the secnd beat came out ahead. This was because they finished this race at the second weather mark.

Anyway, we had ground back to be in the top five at the leeward mark, and we went out right with one other boat. The others went left. We tacked just short of the starboard tack layline hoping that the predicted shift would take us to the finish. It did, but barely. Other boats coming in on port had to either duck us or tack on our lee bow. One after another, boats started flipping over beside us to leeward. It was like magic. We ended up forcing the majority of the fleet to tack inside of us, so that people coming in on the port tack layine had to duck about 10 transoms to finish. As it was, we just barely squeeked by the mark. Everybody below us had to tack back to get through the line. We finished second in that race. We were still mid-pack for the regatta with no hope of doing better, but it was sweet. In no way was this a bullshit move!

Now then, back at the yacht club, we are just sitting down to some serious drinking when we are informed that we have been protested for hitting the pin at the finish.

WTF?

To make a long story short, the guy we had dicked over in the previous race - admittedly, we dicked him over however unintentionally - had finished 8th or so. He was one of the boats coming in on port at the finish and had to duck a lot of transoms to find a hole. This was a purely spiteful, bogus protest, and we were shocked when the committee agreed to hear it. The long shot was a lot of party time wasted. We finally were exonerated; no witnesses, and even the comittee boat was too busy finishing boats to do more than take our bow number. Later, his crew admitted to us at the bar that he hadn't seen anything, and didn't know if we had hit the mark, and didn't care. He was so pissed that we had cost him a win in one race, and somehow had construed it to be our fault for his poor showing in the last one that he filed the protest just to try and fuck us over. That was a particularly bullshit move!

#77 Chris J/105

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:49 PM

Anyway, this is a pursuit race-- theoretically both boats should be finishing at the same time, so obviously the dude in the 105 is doing something really wrong for a FT to catch up that fast. What does a FT rate? In any case, you can't blame Ed. for getting into the situation--no one expects another skipper to go into dick-mode around a mark.... maybe that makes it a good move vs. a BS move?

#78 Free Flight

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 04:59 PM

I prefer to have the wankers and fuck-ups ahead of us, because usually they're easy to pass once they fly the chute upside down and tag the mark.

#79 Foredeck Shuffle

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:00 PM

The reall bullshit move here is that the FT10 isn't yet an Olympic class.

That and no one has called a...

Posted ImagePosted Image

#80 Hank

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:08 PM

Somewhere in So-Cal there's a J/105 skipper reading this with a smile on his face, knowing he got just the reaction he hoped for.








The J105 skipper you speak of..........is a dick head...........allways has been allways will be.........

Is is the one with the wife that has more makeup on than than a member of the band KISS!!!

#81 DancingBear

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:11 PM

Yes there was a rule broken - the rule of not being a prick. It was a chump move, but here's what really pissed me off - we tacked away, sailed into some light air, came back and had lost at least 30 boat lengths! We went on to crush them, but it still frosted my ass.


Did you consider the possibility that he saw the hole on that side of the course and wanted to force you over there? Sounds like a pretty smart move to me, not a prick at all, and certainly not a chump move. Sounds like you were the chump this time.

#82 See LEVEL

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:12 PM

"I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us"

"but here's what really pissed me off - we tacked away, sailed into some light air, came back and had lost at least 30 boat lengths!"

Who's head is not in the boat. If you let one move from a guy who's in front of you, distract you into sailing into a hole, then you a going to get screwed every time.

#83 DoRag

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:15 PM

Anyway, this is a pursuit race-- theoretically both boats should be finishing at the same time, so obviously the dude in the 105 is doing something really wrong for a FT to catch up that fast. What does a FT rate? In any case, you can't blame Ed. for getting into the situation--no one expects another skipper to go into dick-mode around a mark.... maybe that makes it a good move vs. a BS move?


So here we have a Newbie (and this Newbie is from the J105 Class), saying "no one expects another skipper to go into a dick-mode."

WTF?

Is nothing sacred?

#84 CharlieCobra

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:23 PM

Ya know, this thread kicks ass. I don't know enough about yacht racing yet to call Bullshit on one or the other but reading this stuff in here made the big picture a bit less fuzzy.

#85 some dude

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:29 PM

"I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us"

"but here's what really pissed me off - we tacked away, sailed into some light air, came back and had lost at least 30 boat lengths!"

Who's head is not in the boat. If you let one move from a guy who's in front of you, distract you into sailing into a hole, then you a going to get screwed every time.



so you're saying you should never look to leeward after you rounded the mark right behind anohter boat? I hope you have those rub rails all the way around your boat

#86 anytime

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:39 PM

I was sailing in the same fleet with Morphined and Motorcycle last weekend. I thought the fleet was a pretty chill group. I would not have guessed so much grief could have been caused by this mellow Norcal fleet.

I say mess with anyone anytime you want, but you have to stay well inside the rules if you do. And by chance if you blow it, take your Bruzing like a man and spin bitch!

But hey thanks Motocycle! We were one of the two that got by you in that mess.

#87 Inter 20

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:46 PM

If the 105 beat you...shut up. Good move on his part. If you beat him... shut up. Good move on your part. Would you be whinning if this was another Flying Kitty? Probably not. Just another example of 105 discrimination and lack of respect for those who race them. I guess you didn't buy a 105 because you thought you'd win every regatta and it just wouldn't be fun to be so superior to all the 105 sailors. Maybe you need to sail somewhere other than that cesspool you call San Diego. Maybe a place where it blows more than 10knots.

#88 Shaggy

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:49 PM

Here's the latest one for me.
High mountain regatta racing phrf for the first time in a while. 4 S20's showed up so we had to go PHRF. Blowing 10-15 Way ahead of the rest of the fleet as we were the first start. Coming into the bottom mark we have an ensign on our starboard quarter and let him round ahead as we were in different classes. While admiring our surroundings at the front, we shrimp the kite within 6bl to the mark and stop dead, drift away from the mark and attempt to get the chute back on board. When I look behind me and a J80 comes in at about 5-6 knots (with pole out and kite up) on a tight angle and hits our stern quarter, spin us into the Ensign and take us both out. Luckily I turned around and pushed his pulpit away from us and it was only a glancing blow. Otherwise I would have gotten the pole upside the back of my head or there would have been much more damage . Meanwhile the kite wraps around the keel (from his momentum spinning us arround) and we are tangled with the ensign. Screwed basically. We get things straightened out as the rest of the fleet goes around us Throw the flag and hail the guy and he does nothing. (The ensign did the same as he saw and was part of the whole thing). BS move as there was damage etc. He really should have dropped out or at least put in a couple of circles)

Later, we file the protest and wait for the hearing. Prior to going into the room I say hey, as we are in different classes, I really don't want to go through this crap and would like to get to the bar. Can I get your insurance information for the damages as you hit me and really were the one at fault? I get this back "No I wasn't, you can't just stop your boat in front of mine and expect me to avoid you and avoid contact". I was floored, quoted the appropriate rules and just stared at the guy in disbelief. This guy tagged us, took out another boat and claims that he did nothing wrong, even when faced with the appropriate rules and definitions??? WTF

So, we go into arbitration and he is found in the wrong on all points. We (the ensign and myself) agree to drop the protest if he gives me his INS info and leave it at that. Protest dropped on a friendly note. Further contact with his INS company and the guy, has been idiotic as he insists that he was in the right and did nothing wrong. Ins Company needs protest forms and ruling and agrees with their client (at this point) that I was at fault for stopping my boat in front of his. I am still in the process of obtaining the arbitration papers and the protest forms, but for a claim of this size pure BS at best.

If I learned anything it is not to be a nice guy when dealing with kind of stuff in the future. Luckily the damage is above the waterline on the stern so we can still sail, but BS situation for sure.

Late,

Shag

#89 more cowbell

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:51 PM

Back in the 2005 chicago mac race, a bene 36.7 would not let anyone even try to go above him. We tried to go up, he went up. We went down, he came down and sat on us. When we asked him to please sail course (we were not evenin his class) he just said @^#$%@ off.
Then a F31 (trimaran) came up behind him, and he took him up - - way up, screaming at the guy all the while that hew was gonna take him into shore. The F31 skipper just laughed at the guy and passed him in a couple seconds.

What an asshat!

#90 moorphined

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:11 PM

I was sailing in the same fleet with Morphined and Motorcycle last weekend. I thought the fleet was a pretty chill group. I would not have guessed so much grief could have been caused by this mellow Norcal fleet.

I say mess with anyone anytime you want, but you have to stay well inside the rules if you do. And by chance if you blow it, take your Bruzing like a man and spin bitch!

But hey thanks Motocycle! We were one of the two that got by you in that mess.


Didn't mean to infer I was racing in that race. I was actually working that weekend. Just that my story involved the same individual. Not sure how long you've been in the fleet but unfortunately it is famous for blatant fouls and no circles. This is true in a number of fleets but the surprising thing about this one is that most of the guys in the front are just as bad or worse then the ones in the back when in comes to following the rules.

#91 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:15 PM

Lets preface this with the admission that I wasn't there, can't see there form my house, and don't know the guy you are talking about, however; when is not rolling over and dying like a good little 105 sailor against the rules? And isn't it more bullshit to use your international sailing forum to post questionable and petty race course squabbles more bullshit than forcing a competitor into a giant 30 boat length eating hole?

#92 Mr Lahey

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:25 PM

Here's the latest one for me.
High mountain regatta racing phrf for the first time in a while. 4 S20's showed up so we had to go PHRF. Blowing 10-15 Way ahead of the rest of the fleet as we were the first start. Coming into the bottom mark we have an ensign on our starboard quarter and let him round ahead as we were in different classes. While admiring our surroundings at the front, we shrimp the kite within 6bl to the mark and stop dead, drift away from the mark and attempt to get the chute back on board. When I look behind me and a J80 comes in at about 5-6 knots (with pole out and kite up) on a tight angle and hits our stern quarter, spin us into the Ensign and take us both out. Luckily I turned around and pushed his pulpit away from us and it was only a glancing blow. Otherwise I would have gotten the pole upside the back of my head or there would have been much more damage . Meanwhile the kite wraps around the keel (from his momentum spinning us arround) and we are tangled with the ensign. Screwed basically. We get things straightened out as the rest of the fleet goes around us Throw the flag and hail the guy and he does nothing. (The ensign did the same as he saw and was part of the whole thing). BS move as there was damage etc. He really should have dropped out or at least put in a couple of circles)

Later, we file the protest and wait for the hearing. Prior to going into the room I say hey, as we are in different classes, I really don't want to go through this crap and would like to get to the bar. Can I get your insurance information for the damages as you hit me and really were the one at fault? I get this back "No I wasn't, you can't just stop your boat in front of mine and expect me to avoid you and avoid contact". I was floored, quoted the appropriate rules and just stared at the guy in disbelief. This guy tagged us, took out another boat and claims that he did nothing wrong, even when faced with the appropriate rules and definitions??? WTF

So, we go into arbitration and he is found in the wrong on all points. We (the ensign and myself) agree to drop the protest if he gives me his INS info and leave it at that. Protest dropped on a friendly note. Further contact with his INS company and the guy, has been idiotic as he insists that he was in the right and did nothing wrong. Ins Company needs protest forms and ruling and agrees with their client (at this point) that I was at fault for stopping my boat in front of his. I am still in the process of obtaining the arbitration papers and the protest forms, but for a claim of this size pure BS at best.

If I learned anything it is not to be a nice guy when dealing with kind of stuff in the future. Luckily the damage is above the waterline on the stern so we can still sail, but BS situation for sure.

Late,

Shag


I used to work with Insurance companies and this type of thing happened all the time. Same story in a car accident; a guy hits you and is all apologetic and offers up his Insurance rather than calling the cops. You agree to that. Next thing you know the guy tells his Insurance Company the accident was all your fault and that is why you didnít want to call the cops. Without an accident report it becomes your word against the guy who hit you and that can work against you.

A protest, including witness statements, should be taken in any incident that creates damage that will be claimed; unless the person who causes the damage admits to wrongdoing. And if so, ask for that admission of quilt in writing.

#93 batten

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:30 PM

Bad enough that you were hosed by a J105. Even worse is whining about it. Want some crackers and cheese to go with that w(h)ine? If I'd gotten hosed like that on a mark rounding, I certainly wouldn't be telling that story on myself...

#94 Cap'nSupaDupa

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:32 PM

So I'm leading the Lightning fleet and approaching the layline on port, to leeward of a laser on the same course who was late to the start and is sailing in last place. Seeing as it was light and shifty, the a$$hole decides to overstand by several boatlengths while I am, meanwhile, trying to defend against 3 other lightnings. I tell him, several times, to tack, at which point he looks out from under his sail and tells me to go F*** myself.

#95 LeftSA

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:40 PM

Sounds like you got told Ed. By this point it was a match race, and you got schooled. Learn from it, and maybe next time you'll deal with it on the water instead of slagging this guy off on the net. It's like the adult version of a kid crying to mummy 'cos he got whipped.

#96 Inter 20

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:57 PM

The reall bullshit move here is that the FT10 isn't yet an Olympic class.

The "Special Olympics" that is. Seems like the editor is trying to qualify for a spot on the team. Actually Special Olympians are more Corinthian and don't cry when they lose. Note to editor... "turn in your man card today"

#97 Nantucket Red

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:59 PM

Vag.

#98 NoStrings

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:01 PM

Scot, you've just told everyone in San Diego how to get under your skin, and how to do it legally. That's some good info.

#99 Lesbian Robot

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:11 PM

How far into the hole did you go before you looked at your compass? Was it a black hole precluding your compass from operating? Were you perhaps still watching the other guy drive with an erect tiller? Does the thought of another man's erect tiller make your dude noodle turgid? Does the word "turgid" make you throw up a little in your mouth?

#100 montey_burns

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:13 PM

From the front page....
I looked to leeward and instead of the helmsman steering a tiller boat the way you are supposed to, he was standing up, tiller in the air and just looking at us as he luffed us. So lame. I yelled something like "How about you just sail your boat and not fixate on us", but it had zero effect.

04/25/07


You've obviously been sailing keel boats for too long. Next time try the patented,Ē DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO I AM" hail.




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