50 replies to this topic

[Buckie Lugger]

The hull of the new Pindar Open 60 has been flipped, and a press release is now circulating with pictures. It's up on the Daily Sail, and also on Sail World:

http://www.sail-worl...x.cfm?nid=34203

My thoughts: Chines, the beam is carried fairly far forward, and she's pretty wide. The cockpit is relatively unsheltered, compared with the Farr and Finot designs.

Now details on the rig (yet), but the initial renderings showed a wing mast with tuna poles.

[daniel hansen]

Ready for Fastnet? That's only two months away...

[Haji]

Hmm.....I like.

[gerbil]

standby for something new for the rig..................................think what makes the ORMA's go fast.

[moody frog]

standby for something new for the rig..................................think what makes the ORMA's go fast.

Well,
so let's see... Ormas have a rotating and canting wing-mast and a square-head main.

All Imocas have a square-head main, a good number of them have a rotating wing-mast.

That leaves the canting aspect which is not possible.
"C.2: CANTING MAST IN A LATERAL PLANE
Masts that cant in a lateral plane are forbidden".

does not leave much room to innovate.

[Buckie Lugger]

It could be a wing mast with a very large chord. The ORMAs are more extreme in that regard.

And I've heard rumoursof the boat having a huge sailplan and rig. Someone suggested that you'd need to be the size of a T-Rex to handle it.

[Large Thomas]

And I've heard rumoursof the boat having a huge sailplan and rig. Someone suggested that you'd need to be the size of a T-Rex to handle it.

Which Mike obviously doesn't have. Let's see what comes that way, we'll have some fun with that boat, I guess, and so did the IMOCA. I don't have any news about that, though, so I still don't know what they were arguing about concerning the boat. Anyone got any clearer idea on that by now?

Cheers

[Who's your daddy]

Which Mike obviously doesn't have. Let's see what comes that way, we'll have some fun with that boat, I guess, and so did the IMOCA. I don't have any news about that, though, so I still don't know what they were arguing about concerning the boat. Anyone got any clearer idea on that by now?

Cheers

I hear the query was asymmetry. The rule allows static heel up to 20 degrees, but doesn't say 10 degrees each way, so you could go 8 degrees on one tack and 12 on the other.

Not sure what Buckie is on about the volume being carried a long way forwards, he obviously hasn't seen the latest from Finot!!

[Buckie Lugger]

The new Finot seems to have a similar shape to Pindar. (Just been looking at the photos on the Daily Sail.) Big chines on the Finot design...

I think that I misinterpreted the shape of Pindar, though. The photos were taken with a wide lens, which distorted the perspective a bit.

[gerbil]

oh, she's wide alright.

[SEP]

oh, she's wide alright.

7m is the best rumour I've heard

[Who's your daddy]

The new Finot seems to have a similar shape to Pindar. (Just been looking at the photos on the Daily Sail.) Big chines on the Finot design...

I think that I misinterpreted the shape of Pindar, though. The photos were taken with a wide lens, which distorted the perspective a bit.

What is hard to see on the Daily Sail is just how much volume there is forwards on the Finots. Looking up close they almost look like the front ten feet was chopped off! Pindar looks to me like a nice powerful shape, not too distorted by rule requirements by comparison.

[Buckie Lugger]

Did you get to see the boats in Calais, Chimp? I'd liked to have gone, but moved down to Gibraltar a couple of weeks back, making it a bit impractical to get up there.

Looking at the size of the coach roof on Pindar, I could believe that she's 7 metres wide.

The rumours are that the new boats are generally 6 to 6.5 metres wide, compared to around 5.5 for the previous generation. There's a photo on the Calais Round Britain Race website that shows Cheminees Poujoulat and Delta Dore, and you can really see the difference.

[Who's your daddy]

Did you get to see the boats in Calais, Chimp? I'd liked to have gone, but moved down to Gibraltar a couple of weeks back, making it a bit impractical to get up there.

Looking at the size of the coach roof on Pindar, I could believe that she's 7 metres wide.

The rumours are that the new boats are generally 6 to 6.5 metres wide, compared to around 5.5 for the previous generation. There's a photo on the Calais Round Britain Race website that shows Cheminees Poujoulat and Delta Dore, and you can really see the difference.

Didn't get to see them in Calais, but to tell you where woudl be too much of a clue as to my true identity!

Not sure on the beam, but I am really surprised by the size of Pindar's coachroof. If that is all there is along with the moderate deck camber I wonder how the roll over will go, unless the keel cants a hell of a long way or is pretty heavy.

[Buckie Lugger]

You and your secret identity...

I'm surprised by the size of the coach roof too. If you compare the footage of the Temenos 2 (small roof) and Delta Dore (big roof) roll-over tests, Delta Dore comes over far, far easier than Temenos.

I'd guess that the keel's going to be capable of being canted pretty heavily. Pindar looks a similar sort of size and shape to the new Finot designs, and apparently the new Hugo Boss can cant her keel to 48 degrees. So I'd expect Pindar to have a similar angle.

[Who's your daddy]

You and your secret identity...

I'm surprised by the size of the coach roof too. If you compare the footage of the Temenos 2 (small roof) and Delta Dore (big roof) roll-over tests, Delta Dore comes over far, far easier than Temenos.

I'd guess that the keel's going to be capable of being canted pretty heavily. Pindar looks a similar sort of size and shape to the new Finot designs, and apparently the new Hugo Boss can cant her keel to 48 degrees. So I'd expect Pindar to have a similar angle.

With that amount of cant you don't need much help to roll back!!

[moody frog]

So ........we already guessed Pindar's skipper would have to be a gorilla, with a coachroof that tiny he now needs to be amphibious .

What kind of a dinausorus is that?

[LeoV]

CHIMP can do it, big laugh...

funny to see people hiding behind the handles Moody frog and Buckie Lugger trying to work out who is Chimp.
I do it too (as you know) but at least LeoV is easy to find out

[Buckie Lugger]

Some more speculation...

There's an article on Yachting World's website about the new 38' canting keel boats that Juan K has designed for Team Heiner:

http://www.yachtingw...avid_glenn.html

And it contains this comment about their design:

The TH38 is a wonderfully potent looking machine, comes with the familiar Juan K chined hull, a canting bulbed keel and also a canting canard forward of the keel which can be trimmed to the vertical no matter what the angle of keel.

The IMOCA rules state:

Symmetrical daggerboards can be moveable on two axes.

There's no visible holes for twin boards in the photos I linked to, so what if Pindar is going to have a single, lifting and canting daggerboard?

The prime driver for Open 60s is the 10 degree rule, and having a single, central board helps the weight distribution for meeting that. So what if there's a loophole here that Juan K has spotted...

[Who's your daddy]

Some more speculation...

There's an article on Yachting World's website about the new 38' canting keel boats that Juan K has designed for Team Heiner:

http://www.yachtingw...avid_glenn.html

And it contains this comment about their design:
The IMOCA rules state:
There's no visible holes for twin boards in the photos I linked to, so what if Pindar is going to have a single, lifting and canting daggerboard?

The prime driver for Open 60s is the 10 degree rule, and having a single, central board helps the weight distribution for meeting that. So what if there's a loophole here that Juan K has spotted...

Not sure this will help a great deal for measurement, since the daggerboards are raised for this. Gets the VCG down a little, since there is only one 100kg board rather than 2, but not a huge difference. I know Juan likes this approach though from previous discussions with him.

Don't think it is a loophole others haven't looked into before.

[LeoV]

Some minis had/have them, specially the Rogers comes to mind....

[Speng]

Notice how they didn't have any pics of the rear or underside of the hull...
What's up with, "We have just finished the fairing of the hull"? What no female mold? Slackness.
From the Seahorse article last year Juan showed a pretty big sailplan with a rotating mast on a deck spreader setup. if Mike has any input it should have some interesting sails as that is his thing. I have to check the article to see what he said about foils. A canting single foil would actually be kinda hot and might orient you toward a much different hull shape in the forward sections to get it to work...

Mike S isn't tall but he is not skinny. i wouldn't want to get into a grinding duel with him and i got six inches on him at least. Given the trend these boats are taking it's likely your next generation of offshore singlehander is going to look more like an AC grinder than an AC tactician.

[Buckie Lugger]

Mike Sanderson said that it isn't as important to get all the weight into the keel for an Open 60 as it would be for a VOR boat, so the cost of female tooling wasn't justified. Hence the male mould.

There's been quite a lot of secrecy about this project so far, so I can understand that they don't want to give away too much yet.

[lazy mavis]

the old PRB, now Roxy has a single canting, lifting daggerboard so it is nothing new

[Buckie Lugger]

Actually, it's a gybing, rather than canting, daggerboard on Roxy, similar to the forward foil on a CBTF boat, but with a smaller angle on rotation. A canting board would match the movement of the keel.

[moody frog]

Correct, gybing daggerboard, but not rotating -angled all the way either side-.

And... Buckie, I believe the canting board would cant opposite to the keel, to remain perpendicular to the water-surface or slightly angled to leeward.

[Lost in Translation]

What do these boats feel like to helm? The tillers look industrial strength and I wonder how the helm is. Very much pull?

[moody frog]

What do these boats feel like to helm? The tillers look industrial strength and I wonder how the helm is. Very much pull?

As easy and balanced as you can dream of.

It's a very important design factor to make the autopilots life easy as they need to last a RTW and one can carry limited spares only.

[Kanting_Kid]

Notice how they didn't have any pics of the rear or underside of the hull...
What's up with, "We have just finished the fairing of the hull"? What no female mold? Slackness.

Male molds that are built well are not a huge difference to a female mold, the cost that you save can be better used for the rest of the boat, using pre-preg you can get a very good outer surface, sometimes its just a extra coat of primer. A good boatbuilder can probably make a male molded boat nicer than a average builder with a female mold. I know what id rather spend the hundreds of thousands on!!!

[Buckie Lugger]

Olivier Luthi, a very good Swiss builder, likes to use male moulds for narrower boats as he can get a better quality of lay-up. (Easier to pack the material around tighter curves.)

I don' think that female moulds are always better...

[PBR]

Male molds that are built well are not a huge difference to a female mold, the cost that you save can be better used for the rest of the boat, using pre-preg you can get a very good outer surface, sometimes its just a extra coat of primer. A good boatbuilder can probably make a male molded boat nicer than a average builder with a female mold. I know what id rather spend the hundreds of thousands on!!!

Finally. Someone talking sence here!!

[moody frog]

What is hard to see on the Daily Sail is just how much volume there is forwards on the Finots. Looking up close they almost look like the front ten feet was chopped off! Pindar looks to me like a nice powerful shape, not too distorted by rule requirements by comparison.

This might help answer your question.
From the new "Brit'Air" Website

Attached Files

•  Britairdscn1854.jpg   164.52K   69 downloads

[Liquid]

that's a REALLY small dog house for what's been coming out of the sheds recently...

[moody frog]

Here we go !

First shots of launching on

Crew Org NZ Website

Attached Files

•  pindar_005_576.jpg   35.03K   87 downloads

[Who's your daddy]

Here we go !

First shots of launching on

Crew Org NZ Website

By Open 60 standards I think that is a good looking boat, almost looks like it was drawn without restrictions!! Never thought I would say that about one of Juan's boats, and never going to admit it to him!!

[Buckie Lugger]

Good thing you've got that secret identity, Chimp, or Juan would be surprised to hear you praising him.

Pindar strikes me as being a less radical looking boat than some of the Farr designs, and particularly Hugo Boss. I get the impression that Mike Sanderson keeps Juan K in line, and stops him going off on too many tangents.

The hull looks similar to the ABN Amro boats, and from early shots of the deck (none here), she looks very exposed. The traveller looks like it's located on the cockpit sole, which is unusual for a 60, but saves a bit of weight.

I had hoped to see some interesting innovations, but it looks like an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, boat. She looks very wide, though.

[Who's your daddy]

Good thing you've got that secret identity, Chimp, or Juan would be surprised to hear you praising him.

Pindar strikes me as being a less radical looking boat than some of the Farr designs, and particularly Hugo Boss. I get the impression that Mike Sanderson keeps Juan K in line, and stops him going off on too many tangents.

The hull looks similar to the ABN Amro boats, and from early shots of the deck (none here), she looks very exposed. The traveller looks like it's located on the cockpit sole, which is unusual for a 60, but saves a bit of weight.

I had hoped to see some interesting innovations, but it looks like an evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, boat. She looks very wide, though.

The appendages look like he has just scaled down ABNs package a bit and pressed the go button. He is obviously pretty happy with his approach and sees no need to change for the sake of it.

It does look wide, but is clearly from the same drawing board as both ABN and the new Bounder. Strane to see Juan's boats looking less radical than what we are seeing from FYD. Maybe FYD feel the need to be "Radical!!" whilst Juan is happy to just be "Juan" these days!

[Jaja]

Haha nice analysis Chimp i thought the same

[moody frog]

Also possibly strongly biased by Mike S.

Remember the drastic mods conducted by Moose on the Pindar O/C, rig change, non roller furling headsails........

He has made clear that he had no interest in the Vendee and is targetting the transats.
Could be that he requested a 60' Volvo to kill the Vendée optimised boats upwind - different set of targetted polars -
His options worked very very well in the last The Transat so why not go one step further?

Might be why no one seems to be willing to build a sistership.

[LeoV]

Or did he messed up the drawings from Ericson and Pindar and will we see an extreme wide VOR
Damn his mail room...

even looks like the deck beam is smaller in the back much more then the other 60´s (damn what a sentence i did make here... to tired)

[aquila]

so what is the FINAL word on beam and displacment?

[Icedtea]

so what is the FINAL word on beam and displacment?

Wow you're late to the party!!! I remember for last vendee it was alot heavier than the other boats, upwards of ten tons if memory serves

[Trovão]

so what is the FINAL word on beam and displacment?

so what is the FINAL word on beam and displacment?

 golden shovel trophy.png   390.22K   13 downloads

[Presuming Ed]

Buckie Lugger. There's a name from the past. Wonder what happened to him?

[aquila]

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

[Trovão]

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

be my guest

[Buckie Lugger]

Buckie Lugger. There's a name from the past. Wonder what happened to him?

I'm occassionally around, and have dropped in once or twice with the Vendee.

[Rail Meat]

Buckie Lugger. There's a name from the past. Wonder what happened to him?

I'm occassionally around, and have dropped in once or twice with the Vendee.

Welcome back

[Large Thomas]

Buckie Lugger. There's a name from the past. Wonder what happened to him?

I'm occassionally around, and have dropped in once or twice with the Vendee.

Even submarines need to come up for air sometimes.

[aquila]

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

be my guest

finally got round to it lol

[Trovão]

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

attachment=184755:golden shovel trophy.png

Damn I want that on my profile!

be my guest

finally got round to it lol

congrats!!!