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Pilot House Designs (aka Raised Deck Saloon)


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#1 ronbo

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 06:37 PM

Anyone with opinions of Pilot House Boats?

Oyster Yachts' definition: being able to see out large windows while sitting on a settee, while Raised Deck Saloons allow seeing out while standing (BP... please jump in if you haven't started your book signing <grin>).

Here is an example: Fantasi Yachts of Sweden, a 44 footer, appeared at the 2003 Annapolis Show, but due to it's premium price and the plummeting US dollar is no longer shown. It's best feature allows inside helming, protected from the elements, whether Pacific NW chill or Chesapeake thunderstorms/heat. It seems to pack a lot in a multi-level interior design which has a sleek aesthetically pleasing profile.


http://www.fantasi-y...ex.php?page=2_0
Fantasi Yachts - PilotHouse

Ronbo

#2 New Morning

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 06:52 PM

IMHO, big difference between raised salon and pilot house. Are you looking for enclosed and heated with an inside steering station, protection from spray/waves/sun and maybe an autopilot remote, or just a view when sitting at your settee? Real sailing or motor sailor?

Check out Trintella's and Halberg Rassy for production boats, maybe Bruckman 50. Chuck Paine has done a lot of custom pilot house designs from open aft (like mine under construction) to fully enclosed with steering stations. You can look through his web site for some ideas on the variations. I know BP has many also, as well as other designers.

I consider mine to be a hard doger, but I've had people call it a pilot house. I think the fully enclose pilot house is not going to be too comfortable once you're south of about 30-35 degrees, tough to get a lot of air moving through there.

I say the range runs from designs like mine with a hard dodger (open aft) to something like the Bruckman 50, with lots variations in between. I don't consider a raised salon to have anything to do with a pilot house; no much piloting done from a raised salon.

#3 Methersgate 14

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 11:08 AM

I would be interested to hear from a naval architect on this.

It used to be thought that large areas of glass represented a hazard to the boat.

People thought that a boarding sea could knock them out and cause significant flooding, possibly even swamping the boat. I can certainly recall designs that had self draining arrangements under the pilothouse, with sills in way of companions, etc.

People don't seem to think this now. Am I missing something?

#4 Joli

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 01:42 PM

Possibly some the of the deck saloon designs carry weather boards? Big windows scare me also.

I would be interested to hear from a naval architect on this.

It used to be thought that large areas of glass represented a hazard to the boat.

People thought that a boarding sea could knock them out and cause significant flooding, possibly even swamping the boat. I can certainly recall designs that had self draining arrangements under the pilothouse, with sills in way of companions, etc.

People don't seem to think this now. Am I missing something?



#5 Estar

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 02:16 PM

The Oyster deck saloons have quite big windows. They use 10mm tempered (hardened) glass and say they have never had one break. Our hard dodger has big windows and we put in 10mm tempered glass and have had no problem (yet) - one of the reasons we went with a 'dodger' rather than a 'pilothouse' is so ours could break and the boat would still be watertight. Both ours and Oysters windows are quite steeply slanted and that dramatically reduces expected loads. Steve Dashew has big vertical windows on his new power boat, he put in 25mm tempered glass.

Weather boards are a PITA. They tend to either get 'permanently' installed, or are never used.

#6 Bob Perry

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 04:37 PM

I have designed a lot of pilot house boats and I have a standard storm window set up that I first used years ago on the V40 ph model. I have never been informed that any of my ph boats have had windows knocked out. A chum of mine put his spn pole thru a window once.

#7 Nettles

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 10:23 PM

I would be interested to hear from a naval architect on this.

It used to be thought that large areas of glass represented a hazard to the boat.

People thought that a boarding sea could knock them out and cause significant flooding, possibly even swamping the boat. I can certainly recall designs that had self draining arrangements under the pilothouse, with sills in way of companions, etc.

People don't seem to think this now. Am I missing something?


Ever hear the Trashman story?

#8 Methersgate 14

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 11:15 PM

No; do tell.

I have known a doghouse/chartroom that was demolished pretty comprehensively, but I was not on board that boat at the time.

#9 ronbo

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 11:20 PM

The windows in the Fantasi 44PH are quite low and thus not as vulnerable. This appeared to have been accomplished by having a low profile deckhouse which is easy to see over from the aft cockpit, itself raised slightly. And, as a result, the aft cabin has been given more headroom.

A discussion of interior designs, on another thread, lamented about the cookie-cutter look of today's new designs. The Fantasi design appears to have a lot of appeal (even for warm climes) but no one is offering it as a production boat except for variations like Tartan's 4400 and Nauticat. What are the downsides of this design?

#10 Nettles

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 11:33 PM

No; do tell.


Boothbay Challenger (60' big heavy cruiser) with these HUGE windows on the salon. Got into the shit off Hatteras, fucked up nine ways to Sunday (easy for me to say), only put up the weather storm shutters, boat falls off a wave, staves in the leeward side windows, sinks in about a minute. Three out of five dead, (including a mate of mine) the two survivors lucky in the extreme.

One of them, Debbie Kiley, wrote a book "Albatross" about it.

I don't do offshore in boats like that anymore because of it.

#11 Methersgate 14

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 12:36 AM

Boothbay Challenger (60' big heavy cruiser) with these HUGE windows on the salon. Got into the shit off Hatteras, fucked up nine ways to Sunday (easy for me to say), only put up the weather storm shutters, boat falls off a wave, staves in the leeward side windows, sinks in about a minute. Three out of five dead, (including a mate of mine) the two survivors lucky in the extreme.

One of them, Debbie Kiley, wrote a book "Albatross" about it.

I don't do offshore in boats like that anymore because of it.


Thank you.

Also what I think.

Interesting about the boat being thrown hard to leeward - several cases of this in the literature, and I dare say most of us have experienced a milder form of it.

#12 Estar

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 12:41 AM

"the boat being thrown hard to leeward"

Lots of cases of that - friends on 'Brown Bear' (which Methersgate may know) had it happen in the approaches to Puerto Montt and it stove in some reasonably small lewmar 'offshore' ports.

#13 Buford

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 01:34 AM

That's a really nice looking design. [http://www.fantasi-y.../snettfram.jpg]

I'm casting my eye on something more affordable (tho smaller) like the Gulf 32 or Truant 33.

http://www.gulfpilothouse.com/

http://www.yachtworl...s...hoto=1&url=
(mind the wrap)

I think there is a fine line between having enough house and windows to be usable and having too much. Too big and the design both looks clumsy and increases vulnerability. Hard to scale a 'graceful' looking PH on a boat under 50'... but this one succeeds pretty well.

Look at a Pacific Seacraft PH 32 for and example of one that seems too big... by my eye anyway.

#14 Brett

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 03:42 AM

Slightly different league to some of the others here, but I like this one. I am biased though since I drew/dreamed this one up.

84ft long, 92ft with bowsprit. Since the topic concerns windows, these ones are 20mm laminated glass.

Brett

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#15 Duff Beer Cruising

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 03:57 AM

Check out the Sceptre 41 and I think the Dehler 41DS. Old Cal cruising 36 is cool. Cal 46. Pearson Countess for a classic look - http://pearsoninfo.n...ss/countess.htm

#16 Buford

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 01:41 AM

Bob Perry, why don't you revise the Gulf design... it would be a wonderful project.

Stretch her a few feet... maybe to 38 or so max... add a more modern keel.
Keep the attractive and practical house proportions.

#17 Methersgate 14

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 02:31 AM

"the boat being thrown hard to leeward"

Lots of cases of that - friends on 'Brown Bear' (which Methersgate may know) had it happen in the approaches to Puerto Montt and it stove in some reasonably small lewmar 'offshore' ports.


Minor case: Lying a-hull, lee ports open for air. I was sitting on the weather settee pulling my oilskin trousers on when suddenly I was in the lee bunk on top of my "sleeping" (hah!) wife, having collected the cabin table en route, with a dollop of cold water down my neck! No damage apart from dignity and the table (table since replaced, secured to s/s tubes bolted to keel and deck beams!) But I was glad we have little in the way of deck structures.

#18 tdwombat

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 11:00 PM

Reviving an old thread but it was either that or start a new one....

Caudillo mentions the Dehler 41 DS.

http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States

Any thoughts ? Me I think its a damn nice looking piece of kit. Self tacking jib?? Not sure about that but the Wombette certainly finds the idea appealing. Would prefer a U-Galley. Apart from that and a cockpit table that looks decidedly dinky I like the thing.

Then there is a personal favourite of mine the Ted Brewer 40' which came in a couple of different varieties but I do love this one. I wonder if that cockpit is long enough to lie down in and the galley is not perfect but in 40' Brewer came up with a lovely boat.

http://au.yachtworld...3/United-States

and finally a Joe Adams design the Zeston 40.

http://rowellmarine.....php?boatid=770

To my mind very few if any Pilot House designs look anywhere near as yummy as non pilot house but these are some of the nicest I've seen. BP's 45'er (Lyman Morse) is one of the best and if I could afford it I would, there was a Panda 40 waiting to be hauled last year as we came down and I really like the look of her and of course, Bestavear is worth a squizz.

For under $200,000 US I like the Dehler or the Brewer.

#19 Bob Perry

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 11:13 PM

Buford:
Maybe I will. Have you ever checked out the 36' PH boat we did here as a group project? You should.

Brett:
Could we have a little more freeboard?

#20 Kent H

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:02 AM

I have always been surprised that since most custom cruising boats and for the most part any cruising boat is built for someone over 50 why we do not see more pilothouse designs?

This was the first large yacht I was ever aboard. The pilothouse allowed the sailing season to be greatly expanded and cold or rain was never an issue. What was even more amusing is that in good weather just opening up the pilothouse windows, door and hatch and letting the wind blow through it was still the best location to helm the boat.

If the boat is small in the key dimensions length and beam then I like the idea of just a helm on one side and then the nav station on the other. But I can vouch for having a trawler type pilothouse for a yacht like Flying Gull. It is a great location for people to gather. The small windows and the lack of 360 degree views is not something that I would want. Keep in mind that the boat is heeling and you need to be able to see. Some of those designs may not look good but give me great visability from the helm any day over a good looking boat.

This is just one of my issues with the Oyster line. Why draw a big boat that is primarily sailed in cold water but not have a great working pilothouse? If the boat is going to be built for charter in the Caribean there is no need for a pilothouse. But I can assure you that the Baltic Sea to Newfoundland is rather cold most of the year!


I did like what Farr did with some of their Pilothouse yachts but I have no idea if it works well. They built essentially a stand up nav station that allows for steering with the use of the autopilot. There is an option of a chair which will extend from sitting height to full face in the medium sized pilothouse windows height. This kept a rather large pilothouse but allowed the option of going from full in port seating to at sea seating with the helm on one side and nav on the other both which raised to window height and back down for dinner table height.

Another disastor is to design a cockpit helm that is so low a 5' tall helmsman can not see over the cabin. It is not going to work! If the situation is such that it can not be helped put the helm up against the cabin bulkhead. Similar to a catamaran or like what Beneteau has done on several of its center cockpit models.

That 32 footer looks good but I really have to wonder what it is like to sail it with that small window to look out of. It may be fine I just have spent too many hours in power and much less in sail pilothouses to know for sure.


The last thing that I have noticed is that if the boat was not intended for a pilothouse grafting one on can have mixed results at least in the looks department. I am sure that they are good boats and people desire them but the Cabo Rico 42? and the Tayana 48 with the full steering pilothouse look odd. Comparing those two with the 39' Perry/Cruising Anarchy boat 3D model and the results are night and day. You guys did a very good job with that boat. But I think that one reason it looks so good and would function very well for an owner is because it started as a pilothouse and did not evolve from a set of molds that already existed.

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#21 Ketchenup

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 10:45 AM

Reviving an old thread but it was either that or start a new one....

Caudillo mentions the Dehler 41 DS.

http://www.yachtworl...A/United-States

Any thoughts ? Me I think its a damn nice looking piece of kit. Self tacking jib?? Not sure about that but the Wombette certainly finds the idea appealing. Would prefer a U-Galley. Apart from that and a cockpit table that looks decidedly dinky I like the thing.

Then there is a personal favourite of mine the Ted Brewer 40' which came in a couple of different varieties but I do love this one. I wonder if that cockpit is long enough to lie down in and the galley is not perfect but in 40' Brewer came up with a lovely boat.

http://au.yachtworld...3/United-States

and finally a Joe Adams design the Zeston 40.

http://rowellmarine.....php?boatid=770

To my mind very few if any Pilot House designs look anywhere near as yummy as non pilot house but these are some of the nicest I've seen. BP's 45'er (Lyman Morse) is one of the best and if I could afford it I would, there was a Panda 40 waiting to be hauled last year as we came down and I really like the look of her and of course, Bestavear is worth a squizz.

For under $200,000 US I like the Dehler or the Brewer.



The Dehler is a beauty, but I'm not sure about that forward bunk. It looks like you'd either need to sleep with your head forward or you'd be losing your pillow off the end all night long. Just a thought! That Brewer is also a fine looking yacht. You seem to be zeroing in, eh?

Cheers,

#22 Soņadora

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 12:42 PM

Pilothouse = yum

One of the latest from Bob. Featured in the January issue of BWS

(the second image is a work in progress)

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#23 Greever

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 01:06 PM

That's a SWEET rendering Sons'!

Can you do one like that for the Greever46PH? :)

#24 Soņadora

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:36 PM

That's a SWEET rendering Sons'!

Can you do one like that for the Greever46PH? :)


It's on 'The List'. ;)

#25 Soņadora

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:18 PM

BTW Brett, that boat is AWESOME

#26 Brett

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 06:19 AM

Since somebody else here brought up this old thread, and I just happened to stumble in.....

Brett:
Could we have a little more freeboard?


Sure if you like, but I'm going to have to charge you for a full design since it changes a lot of other parts..... :lol:

Seriously, Freeboard to the weather deck at the bow is around 2m with another 450mm or so in a solid bulwark above that. The saloon sole is at the same level as the weather deck (450mm below bulwark) to allow for more accommodation (Master and crew cabs & ensuites) below it plus a large machinery space.

BTW Brett, that boat is AWESOME


Thanks. I am very proud of this one. I was given the job to design her in my late 20's...... I am glad she is one boat that does get used and has put on many miles since her launch. (~spends 3-5 months of the year long range cruising)

Brett

#27 Greever

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 12:51 PM

That's a SWEET rendering Sons'!

Can you do one like that for the Greever46PH? :)


It's on 'The List'. ;)


Cool!

Gotta keep those Solidworks skills up to snuff! ;)

#28 Soņadora

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 04:31 PM

I would have put this on WLYDO Voyeurs, but that's an old thread.

enjoy :)

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#29 CRL

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 11:29 PM

Posted Image
Posted Image

#30 Bob Perry

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:02 AM

Ish:
Get your ass on down here for the jam.

#31 silversailor

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 12:39 AM

Ish:
Get your ass on down here for the jam.


Take a look at www.hanseyachts.com. Hanse acquired Moody a year or two ago and created a very unusual poilothouse yacht.

#32 SJHSAILOR

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 11:22 PM

Our custom cutter on the hard .... great visibility from PH and from raised bridgedeck aft.

Posted Image

The PH offers great visibility ... great ventilation as the rear window opens nicely and the captains door as well.
We place screens for the Casco Bay Mosquito's

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#33 Soņadora

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 05:59 AM

Ish:
Get your ass on down here for the jam.


Take a look at www.hanseyachts.com. Hanse acquired Moody a year or two ago and created a very unusual poilothouse yacht.


If by 'unusual' you mean butt-ass ugly, then yeah...they hit the mark! :rolleyes:




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