2717 replies to this topic

[Steve Clark]

ok, I'll stop now.

Paul

Incorrect response Paul.
The answer should be "OK. I will START now."
Phil's model is of Log 2, which is a slight modification of Hollow Log.
Somewhere there is more info on what he did, but mostly I think it was to cut the sheer line down aft.
Clean out a spot and get on with it, too much time on the fence creases your ass.
SHC

[Amati]

Well, actually I have started. Just got my order of .8 1.0 & 1.5 mm sheets of 3 ply birch aircraft ply. Soon models will be messing up the place. Have to figure out a way around my pesky epoxy allergy, so I've got some Gorilla Glue for the models. When I get some that look interesting, I'll post some pics.

Yikes!! Another way to avoid work........

Paul

[c maas]

 IC2_040.jpg   624.99K   2344 downloads

Hope this works. My first picture post.

This shows the minimal chainplate winglets and water shedding deck. Chine carried well forward.

We are going to have at least two of these things in the PNW soon. Build a boat Paul and we'll have a fleet!

[c maas]

Oh yeah, if you can't tell, the boat is upside down.

[Occams Razor]

damn that's pretty.

nice to see a shop with windows too.

[JimC]

nice to see a shop with windows too.

I'm not sure which I admire most - the generously sized workshop with plenty of daylight or the self discipline that keeps it so clean and tidy...

[atypicalguy]

Oh yeah, if you can't tell, the boat is upside down.

I think you have your boat name: This Side Up

Looking good Chris.

Who is the other DC up there (or are you counting both your boats)?

[Amati]

 IC2_040.jpg   624.99K   2344 downloads

Hope this works. My first picture post.

This shows the minimal chainplate winglets and water shedding deck. Chine carried well forward.

We are going to have at least two of these things in the PNW soon. Build a boat Paul and we'll have a fleet!

OK.

Paul

[Amati]

I think you have your boat name: This Side Up

Looking good Chris.

Who is the other DC up there (or are you counting both your boats)?

I hope me.

Paul

[c maas]

Who is the other DC up there (or are you counting both your boats)?

That would be Mr. Lewis in Vancouver.

Kenny, Podmorski's keeper in Calgary, plans to get a hull too. Bare hulls are cheap - $2,800. Turnkey boats will set a fella back a fair bit.

I've been 'requested' to sell String Theory as soon as I have tested the new boat against it. It would be cool if it stayed on the west coast. You playing the Lotto down there Foredeckhell?

[IC AUS]

That would be Mr. Lewis in Vancouver.

Kenny, Podmorski's keeper in Calgary, plans to get a hull too. Bare hulls are cheap - $2,800. Turnkey boats will set a fella back a fair bit.

I've been 'requested' to sell String Theory as soon as I have tested the new boat against it. It would be cool if it stayed on the west coast. You playing the Lotto down there Foredeckhell?

That hull looks pretty sweet Chris.
I've put AUS26 (once was USA239 'Josie') on the market place (see www.intcanoe.org/forum2) - so there is a very quick new IC available NOW in AUS (2 actually with Phil S's). Course if there's a buyer out there it means I have to build/acquire a new one

[atypicalguy]

That would be Mr. Lewis in Vancouver.

Bare hulls are cheap - $2,800. Turnkey boats will set a fella back a fair bit.

I've been 'requested' to sell String Theory as soon as I have tested the new boat against it. It would be cool if it stayed on the west coast.

All Hail the Imperial Canoe Wizard.

Is $2800 carbon foam or nomex or what? I have a bunch of Nomex sitting around looking for a hull...and carbon come to think of it.

[John K]

 IC2_040.jpg   624.99K   2344 downloads

Hope this works. My first picture post.

This shows the minimal chainplate winglets and water shedding deck. Chine carried well forward.

We are going to have at least two of these things in the PNW soon. Build a boat Paul and we'll have a fleet!

Chris,

I like your work! That is one very sweet looking hull. It was worth the wait.

It is great that you have the time & energy to build, & build for others. These new boats are just what the class needs.

I suspect that we see so few pictures during construction as you clean up the shop before you take out the camera!

Best

JK

[John K]

Like this John,

Posted previously.

Phil,

Yes, I like that shape very much. With the work that Chris, Steve & you are doing in developing new designs I am feeling very good about the decision to change the rule. If these plywood boats start winning races, and I do not see why not, then the options for home builders just get better.

What boats are being built in the UK? Are there any orders at Blood Axe? Peter U. nearly sailed off with String Theory in MacCrae, has he ordered a boat? We all know about Rogers new ride. Stinky Talon & Amati have expressed interest in building boats, but has anything started?

Best

John K
IC USA-244

[c maas]

Is $2800 carbon foam or nomex or what? I have a bunch of Nomex sitting around looking for a hull...and carbon come to think of it.

That's cabon/foam/epoxy, post cured, ready to paint. Bring up your Nomex and we'll build a boat.

[c maas]

What boats are being built in the UK? Are there any orders at Blood Axe? Peter U. nearly sailed off with String Theory in MacCrae, has he ordered a boat? We all know about Rogers new ride. Stinky Talon & Amati have expressed interest in building boats, but has anything started?

Peter U has a complete IC ordered. So that's two new rules boat to Germany. Excellent.

Any word on new boats in the UK?

[IC AUS]

Awesome to hear of all this building, especially in Germany - 2011 should be fun.
To anyone with a boat in build, please drop in the the IC Forum and post a pic - http://www.intcanoe....c.php?f=7&t=838

[foredeckhell]

That would be Mr. Lewis in Vancouver.

Kenny, Podmorski's keeper in Calgary, plans to get a hull too. Bare hulls are cheap - $2,800. Turnkey boats will set a fella back a fair bit.

I've been 'requested' to sell String Theory as soon as I have tested the new boat against it. It would be cool if it stayed on the west coast. You playing the Lotto down there Foredeckhell?

yea, i have... but no luck... maybe if everybody just stoped playing the lotto, and moons aligned, and pigs started to fly, i could win the lotto and string theory would be my first purchase.

your new boat looks amazing chris, although it misses the beautiful clear coated carbon.

[Andy P]

Phil,


What boats are being built in the UK? Are there any orders at Blood Axe?

I've got an order for the Morrison design IC as major mouldings ( ie shell + foredeck + crewdeck ) for home assembly / completion, and a likely order for another complete boat. And maybe a heavily modified Tin Teardrop mk3 for myself, or a new hull which might be faster to build instead of major chopping.
Building UK cherubs at the moment - Complete hull inc wings at 32kg.
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Andy P

[c maas]

 cherub32kg.jpg   35.26K   78 downloads
Andy P

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Andy, what hull modifications do you want to make?

[IC AUS]

I've got an order for the Morrison design IC as major mouldings ( ie shell + foredeck + crewdeck ) for home assembly / completion, and a likely order for another complete boat. And maybe a heavily modified Tin Teardrop mk3 for myself, or a new hull which might be faster to build instead of major chopping.

I didn't get to see too much of the Morrison IC until the last day of the worlds, but it definitely looked the goods in those lumpy conditions in Heat 6 at McCrae.

http://www.sail-worl...amp;tickerCID=0

What are the mods for Tin Teardrop and why?

[atypicalguy]

That's cabon/foam/epoxy, post cured, ready to paint. Bring up your Nomex and we'll build a boat.

Makes me wish I hadn't given up the week of vacation after the Moth nationals in the Gorge...

[Steve Clark]

GER 78 fully boned out before deck goes down.
 20080625_01.JPG   136.35K   137 downloads
 20080625_02.JPG   140.68K   179 downloads
Weight as is is 20 kg.
SHC

[Occams Razor]

How does 20k compare to a carbon/foam or carbon nomex machine at this stage?

[Steve Clark]

It is heavier by 5 -6 kg.
It is a bit of a concern.
But I think I can still hit minimum weight.
The foam core is thicker and heavier than it strictly had to be, but I had surplus so I recycled. So there is probably half of the delta right there.
Hard to beat cored carbon.....
SHC

[atypicalguy]

It is heavier by 5 -6 kg.
It is a bit of a concern.
But I think I can still hit minimum weight.
The foam core is thicker and heavier than it strictly had to be, but I had surplus so I recycled. So there is probably half of the delta right there.
Hard to beat cored carbon.....
SHC

7kg CNC ply seat kit still puts a smile on my face.

[Hurricane H]

Steve
Back to the problem of the hull distorting under vacuum. I think you are getting a pressure drop through the kerfs in the foam such that the outer ply skin receives full vacuum while the inner ply skin receives less than full vacuum thus it will try and curl inwards.
Also as the vacuum pulls down harder the kerfs close up increasing the pressure drop making the problem worse.
I have had a similar problem bagging flat sheets in a full bag with bleed cloth on one side only.
Geoff Harman

[RogerIC]

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Steve,

ist the seat on the left the one for GER 78 or the one you broke ?

Roger
(still) IC GER 68

[Steve Clark]

Well spotted Roger!
That is seat #2 cut to the origional CAD file.
I am going to test it this weekend to see how it holds up.
I may not be happy with it yet and may go with the more tried and true if I can't get the weight and reliability where they need to be for your boat.
In that seat I added the carbon UNIs top and bottom, but the mahogany noses added a bit more weight than I was expecting, so it is about a kilo the best of the carbon/foam ones ( WHAT A SUPRISE!!!) As always I have an idea that may work, but have to change the cut file slightly and get another set of parts cut.
A kilo here a kilo there all of a sudden you have a real weight problem and aren't building an IC anymore.
I continue to hope that doing this stuff "in public" and being willing to talk about what does and doesn't work is instructive and worth doing.
Photo of decked hull goes up later today.
SHC

[IC AUS]

I continue to hope that doing this stuff "in public" and being willing to talk about what does and doesn't work is instructive and worth doing.
Photo of decked hull goes up later today.
SHC

Steve, it's instructive and worth doing - 3 of us here in Adelaide are waiting to see the end result and then looking at building these too (as the boats to bring to Germany in 2011). Keep up the good work.

[IC AUS]

When are the approximate delivery dates for Rogers (out of the Steve Clark laboratory) and Peters (Chris Maas's new design) new boats? given that these two were separated on countback at the Worlds, I'm pretty keen to see who punts their new boats around quickest.

[RogerIC]

When are the approximate delivery dates for Rogers (out of the Steve Clark laboratory) and Peters (Chris Maas's new design) new boats? given that these two were separated on countback at the Worlds, I'm pretty keen to see who punts their new boats around quickest.

we will race against each other at travemuende week in three weeks - but with our traditional ODs.
Will be a nice event anyay with about 10 German ICs showing up at the second largest dinghy racing event in the world.

Roger
(still) IC GER 68

[Steve Clark]

As promised:
 PORT_SIDE.JPG   332.89K   132 downloads
Has a kind of Manfred Curry 1930's look to it.
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There is something of the Taifun or Swedish B Kanot in the sheer line and stern treatment, but because it is longer and lower, I think it looks better.
 Stbd_side_decked.JPG   325.83K   182 downloads
Not that it's a big surprise that longer, lower narrower boats look better than shorter, wider higher sided boats.
Boats are kind of like fashion models in that regard
 AFT_DECK.JPG   185.98K   70 downloads
Rudder trunk is right aft, will make it possible to move the seat way back if you need to in order to keep the bow out of the gutter.
SHC

[IC AUS]

very nice, decked stepped mast (same as the Josie hulls)?

[Steve Clark]

Yeah, I think that standing the mast on top of the foredeck and using a compression Vang makes a lot of sense. Mostly it enables you to build the bulkhead between the shrouds as a straight line and to make the torque tube portion of the program as big as possible.
May not be as important with carbon boats, but trying to make wood beaucoup stiff, I take everything I can get.

SHC

[c maas]

 Stbd_side_decked.JPG   325.83K   182 downloads

You are winning some style points there brother. I'm impressed. If it's as fast as it looks we're in trouble.

[frank!]

hi steve,
wood looks good! - guess the tension springs out the uglies

55mm rocker?

I see the omega - is that an alpha on the other side?

sure looks pretty in your yard now - guess that's the compensation for winter snow

best,

frank

[JimC]

What's the reason for the very concave deck? I guess you save on length of daggerboard and case, and a bit of weight, but on the other hand wouldn't it reduce the torsional strength with the seat loads? Although I suppose the carriage itself might brace across the deck...Does that contribute do you think?

I'm right in line with you about deck stepping and shroud loads, even though I have my doubts about push kickers...

Looking good... I really should get my ass towards a new boat, but its not been a good season so far just sailing the old one. Its been a very windy spring, but even so am falling off too often. My Nethercott at estimated 70kg seems suprisingly more difficult to sail than it was at estimated 90+kg, and until I can hack that in a gusty F5 there seems little point in taking the next step...

[Steve Clark]

Frank, I once told a farmer on Kangaroo Island how much rain we get here, and he was wildly impressed. He quoted some insane number of sheep we could graze.....
But yes it does get quite green, and this June the rain has been really very good.
I'm not sure what you mean by "springs out the uglies"
There is some bog and long board work that has to happen to the bottom before it is ready to be shown to the public. It doesn't make sense to do that stuff until the deck is sealed up.
Jim, The center line of the aft deck of almost all the ICs I have ever built is just about 180mm above the keel at the dagger board slot. This was "the way they all were" when I started building them. Later when I tried some different things, I found the boats harder to sail. So I decided that the real reason for this is completely ergonomic. I like to get my forward knee under the boom when sailing in light air. To do that I need something like 600mm between the deck and the boom at center line just forward of the sliding seat. The narrower boats make the angles bigger and this particular design has quite a bit of sheer height at the chain plates. The sheer height helps a bit with the staying base.
So I have reasons for how it looks....
SHC

[JimC]

I like to get my forward knee under the boom when sailing in light air.

I'm having trouble visualising that! Always keen to get an idea on better ways to sail the boat, especially as I suffer a lot in light airs, especially downhill. My boom gets within inches of the seat though, I probably don't have the room from what you describe.

I see the point of the topside/deck now- by having the extra beam and height your rig angles improve and avoid having little flarelets like String Theory... Especially good with lowers - do you think you'll need them to control the vang push?

I like the foredeck/bulkhead treatment too, I guess its another advantage of the push kicker is certainly that you can have that angle on the bulkhead and less aero drag round there than with a vertical wall creating huge eddies... I keep thinking I ought to be brave and try a track vang and have the front bulkhead fair right back to the track, but I don't suppose I'll ever get that brave. The angles/stuff up possibilities/structural load challenges worry me lots. On my job list is building a Finn style kicker lever with the pivot through (or now I think of it, it would be better over) the boom to get a better angle that way on the "conventional" arrangement. Maybe when I get a better boom: a broken Megabyte mast isn't the perfect tube!

[Steve Clark]

When sailing upwind in light air, I have one leg in front of the slide carriage and the other behind. My foot is on the center line of the deck, Just aft of the dagger board slot and my knee is on the lee side of the boom. If I need to shift outboard I can do so without having to reset my foot or swing my leg forward to get my knee under the boom.
It isn't the clearance between the seat carriage and boom that matter as much as the distance between the center line of the deck and the bottom of the boom. Few pictures of this because it's pretty boring.
Generally I agree with you about vangs. Tension is universally easier, more efficient, lighter and cheaper than compression.
However there are times when compression provides enough benefits to be worth the hassle.
The radial vangs all sound wonderful until you discover that the track is a really tight radius, the standard cars don't go around the bend and that a single short car isn't up to the task. The track doesn't replace anything, so you have another heavy thing to bolt to your boat that is already too heavy. Then there is the problem of having the dagger board's position being ruled by where the vang is. Which seems ass backwards to me.
Trust me, I went through all of this.
The prime advantage of the push vang is that you can build the most highly loaded part of the boat a bit easier and make it a bit stronger and stiffer. As a side benefit, the vang doesn't hang up on the dagger board in gybes and getting on and off the beach.
You get to hang up on the boom instead, but this is several inches higher.
SHC

[Speng]

Steve, paint it sky blue with white pinstripes.. That'll be hot

[foredeckhell]

steve! that thing is a piece of art! i want one!!

[gui]

steve! that thing is a piece of art! i want one!!

Hull swap ... go for it!

[IC AUS]

Hull swap ... go for it!

Gui's right, if you're happy with your rig then it's just the cost of hull and carriage that you need to wear. Transplant your rig, fittings and foils to the new bus.

So FDH, construct a new hull and your IC skills will be complete.

[c maas]

Gui's right, if you're happy with your rig then it's just the cost of hull and carriage that you need to wear. Transplant your rig, fittings and foils to the new bus.

So FDH, construct a new hull and your IC skills will be complete.

It may be that you can reasonably transfer the seat carriage to a new boat as well. Cut the sides off, move them in about 60mm, apply a little cabon and Bob's your uncle.
We'll try it here. Stand by for a report.

Or, to take it to the extreme, you can cut your old boat off at the waterline, squeeze in the beam a little (also reducing the rocker, a good thing) add new vertical topsides, fudge the old deck to fit and viola! You've basicaly got Del's Donkey. New life for old IC's. A little heavy maybe but you could do worse.

[Del Olsen]

It may be that you can reasonably transfer the seat carriage to a new boat as well. Cut the sides off, move them in about 60mm, apply a little cabon and Bob's your uncle.
We'll try it here. Stand by for a report.

Or, to take it to the extreme, you can cut your old boat off at the waterline, squeeze in the beam a little (also reducing the rocker, a good thing) add new vertical topsides, fudge the old deck to fit and viola! You've basicaly got Del's Donkey. New life for old IC's. A little heavy maybe but you could do worse.

Looks like we're into a Canoe version of 'Pimp My Ride"
BTW Thew Donk is a modified No Go 55 from the chine down.
Del

[stinky]

Looks like we're into a Canoe version of 'Pimp My Ride"

Del

that explains the paint job....

[foredeckhell]

hhmmm.... i am tempted to take a saw-zaw to the old dog... but some how that does not feel right.

maybe i can hit up erich's new cnc machine...

cheers
fdh

[RogerIC]

maybe i can hit up erich's new cnc machine...

cheers
fdh

go for it ! would love to race against a couple of these beasts at the next worlds.

by the way: do plan to visit your "home" country this summer ?

[IC AUS]

go for it ! would love to race against a couple of these beasts at the next worlds.

by the way: do plan to visit your "home" country this summer ?

Would he get your new boat on as hand luggage?

[c maas]

Ready for paint.


 IC2_082.jpg   760.52K   578 downloads


 IC2_086.jpg   779.15K   233 downloads

Note the deep dish dance floor and swing up rudder.

The t-foil is just for show.

[IC AUS]

Ready for paint.
 IC2_082.jpg   760.52K   578 downloads
 IC2_086.jpg   779.15K   233 downloads

Note the deep dish dance floor and swing up rudder.

The t-foil is just for show.

Sweet, that is a nice looking boat, good work Chris.
So how does she weigh and measure up?

[Steve Clark]

What Chris says is "ready for paint" looks completely finished to me!
SHC

[atypicalguy]

Ready for paint.
 IC2_082.jpg   760.52K   578 downloads

Note the deep dish dance floor and swing up rudder.

I understand the concern about nosediving, but a PERISCOPE? I think you're going to have to scale it down quite a bit to get the hull completely submerged upwind... =:-)

Beautiful boat Chris. Amazing stuff.

[Amati]

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! Esp. rolled off bow. Yup. Yup.

Paul

[Amati]

Chris, does the last 5-6 inches of the stern roll up a bit? Or is that an optical illusion?

Paul

[FoilerMothGuy]

just when you thought an int canoe couldnt get sexier than string theory... he goes and outdoes himself. well done chris! The mind boggles over what the next one might look like!

[MonkeyDC308]

The boat looks great Chris, putting most of us to shame. I have only just started to model my next one on the cad, progress is slow! Any chance of a few more pics?

[c maas]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll post some more pictures after I get it rigged.

I haven't weighed it for awhile. I think it's right around minimum, maybe a little under. The seat and carriage may be a little too light - 6kg and 2.2kg unpainted and unrigged. I want to see how light and simple I can go on those parts.

Paul, the stern does not curve up at all. Maybe you should take a trip up to the San Juans to check it out.

You guys have suprised me by not commenting on the crew deck. It's dropped down 3.5" from the gunwale see? Seems like a departure from the norm. Been done and discarded before? What's it going to be like to sail?

[FoilerMothGuy]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll post some more pictures after I get it rigged.

I haven't weighed it for awhile. I think it's right around minimum, maybe a little under. The seat and carriage may be a little too light - 6kg and 2.2kg unpainted and unrigged. I want to see how light and simple I can go on those parts.

Paul, the stern does not curve up at all. Maybe you should take a trip up to the San Juans to check it out.

You guys have suprised me by not commenting on the crew deck. It's dropped down 3.5" from the gunwale see? Seems like a departure from the norm. Been done and discarded before? What's it going to be like to sail?

Seems similar to the red Morrison boat's deck (the one on Scarlett O'hara), but not quite to the same extent... personally I liked the morrison boat at the McCrae worlds (and it was the only one to beat you in any race there so clearly something is right with it when the boat was working :S), and I think you took a little inspiration from that (or at least that's what it looks like!). Should help a bit as it might give you somewhere to roll your body into in light winds (instead of having to park yourself in odd places around the plank) and also gives a bit more room in the boat for fittings etc. instead of having the string jungle on the deck like String Theory had. One question about the foredeck... are you going down the self-tacking jib route again or for a more conventional sheeting arrangement?

As for the rudder... how on god's great earth are you going to adjust the t-foil? I know that you've said that they're just for show but I think they're there on purpose... that rudder looks too good to be for anything else!

[MustoSkiffUSA]

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll post some more pictures after I get it rigged.

I haven't weighed it for awhile. I think it's right around minimum, maybe a little under. The seat and carriage may be a little too light - 6kg and 2.2kg unpainted and unrigged. I want to see how light and simple I can go on those parts.

Paul, the stern does not curve up at all. Maybe you should take a trip up to the San Juans to check it out.

You guys have suprised me by not commenting on the crew deck. It's dropped down 3.5" from the gunwale see? Seems like a departure from the norm. Been done and discarded before? What's it going to be like to sail?

Chris,

Nice work! Think you'll be ready for some decent boat beating in about 2.5 weeks time? I'm heading down to the Gorge as long as I can get my bulkhead issue sorted. There is a skiff event July 24 - 27

[c maas]

Seems similar to the red Morrison boat's deck (the one on Scarlett O'hara), but not quite to the same extent... personally I liked the morrison boat at the McCrae worlds (and it was the only one to beat you in any race there so clearly something is right with it when the boat was working :S), and I think you took a little inspiration from that (or at least that's what it looks like!). Should help a bit as it might give you somewhere to roll your body into in light winds (instead of having to park yourself in odd places around the plank) and also gives a bit more room in the boat for fittings etc. instead of having the string jungle on the deck like String Theory had. One question about the foredeck... are you going down the self-tacking jib route again or for a more conventional sheeting arrangement?

As for the rudder... how on god's great earth are you going to adjust the t-foil? I know that you've said that they're just for show but I think they're there on purpose... that rudder looks too good to be for anything else!

There is a lot to like about Scarlett O'Hara. I wasn't sure I could get used to the steeply curved deck near the gunwales though and so simply took the String Theory deck shape and dropped it straight down between the hull sides. Mikey suggested this at McCrea. The boy's got potential. Low center of gravity has become my mantra after sailing Steve Clark's boat.

I'll use a self tacker on my boat. Don't know what the other guy's are going to do. Kenny Austin has a slick idea for the jib traveller that may work. I'll make one out of carbon and post a picture if it's worth looking at.

I really am not using the t-foil, just using String Theory's t-foil rudder on the new boat and will remove the horizontal foil. It seemed like leaving it on would make for a more interesting picture.

[Amati]

"Paul, the stern does not curve up at all."

Well, I am going in for my annual eye exam this month.........

"Maybe you should take a trip up to the San Juans to check it out. "

Thanks, Chris. We'll be sailing by on Vacation in late August. I'll be in touch.

Paul

[Amati]

"You guys have suprised me by not commenting on the crew deck. It's dropped down 3.5" from the gunwale see? Seems like a departure from the norm. Been done and discarded before? What's it going to be like to sail?"

I'm working on the same lines, based on a Div II board I did. Your gunwales look strong enough for kicking, standing on, grabbing while swimming and righting, standing on while capsizing, standing on while sailing, dropping on it's side, docking, etc. It took me to Mk III (on the windsurfer) to get it right.

Basically, I did it to keep foam (and it's weight) to a minimum. Like a long sinker speed board with sides.

Based on my windsurfer's design, it is great for sailing- the centre of effort is sooooo loooow. That's why I'm going with it again. How strong it needs to be is another question.

The only sailing drawback in my experience is how much water is sloshing around between the gunwales. It can be a lot.

Paul

[c maas]

I'm working on the same lines, based on a Div II board I did. Your gunwales look strong enough for kicking, standing on, grabbing while swimming and righting, standing on while capsizing, standing on while sailing, dropping on it's side, docking, etc. It took me to Mk III (on the windsurfer) to get it right.

Basically, I did it to keep foam (and it's weight) to a minimum. Like a long sinker speed board with sides.

Based on my windsurfer's design, it is great for sailing- the centre of effort is sooooo loooow. That's why I'm going with it again. How strong it needs to be is another question.

The only sailing drawback in my experience is how much water is sloshing around between the gunwales. It can be a lot.

Paul

Good points. The biggest load on the gunwales that I can envision is from the seat carriage when the seat hits a wave. The carriage will be trying to pry the boat apart. I could add knees or an inner gunwale piece but will start simple.

I'm not too concerned with water filling the cockpit. Based on experience it flushes out too quickly to get that high - unless things have gone very bad. But how often does that happen really?!

It just occured to me that Flying Colours himself submited a very cool design early on in the DC thinking that showed a dropped dance floor. Maybe it's time to dust off that design , update a bit and build.

[FoilerMothGuy]

That i did Chris, although I'm not very proud of my old design... she might have looked pretty cool but I don't think that it would have worked very well :S It was somewhat unconventional and hyperactive thinking at the time and the experience at McCrae as well as getting a gist of what works in boat structures has taught me a lot.

My new post-McCrae design (should I ever find the funds to build it... the Travemunde worlds is 2011 isn't it? Well... there's still hope, just got to see what my new car will do to the finances :S) also has the floor dropped down a bit, but the rest of the boat is a bit more conventional. While it's still a work in progress until the day that the hull is popped off it's jig, this is what I'm looking at - consider it a detailed redesign of what I had in mind a few years ago, with a more mature and intelligent rethink about many aspects of the design. The attached piccys should give some idea as to what road I'm heading down.

[Amati]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, very pretty.

I'm going through the new car mpg frights myself.

Paul

[Amati]

Chris,

"I'm not too concerned with water filling the cockpit. Based on experience it flushes out too quickly to get that high - unless things have gone very bad. But how often does that happen really?!"

When you're going down the mine with water sloshing around in the tub. How fast does the water drain through the daggerboard well? Or slosh forward over the foredeck? Anyhoo, when this happened, moving back fast enough and far enough was, er, problematic.... And as I read the rules, not many water egress holes allowed.

Paul

[FoilerMothGuy]

hmmmm this has me wondering as to how Uncle Boat is travelling mit den neuen Deutschen DC fuer Herr Roger... she painted yet Steve?

[c maas]

That's the idea! What's the thought behind the stern mounted rudder?

[c maas]

Chris,

"I'm not too concerned with water filling the cockpit. Based on experience it flushes out too quickly to get that high - unless things have gone very bad. But how often does that happen really?!"

When you're going down the mine with water sloshing around in the tub. How fast does the water drain through the daggerboard well? Or slosh forward over the foredeck? Anyhoo, when this happened, moving back fast enough and far enough was, er, problematic.... And as I read the rules, not many water egress holes allowed.

Paul

I believe when that much water has found it's way on to the deck the stern is 6 feet in the air and rising and I have parted company with the seat. The thing is to avoid that down the mine feeling entirely. For the normal punch the bow through the wave sort of thing the water leaves over the stern pretty quickly.
The water will slosh forward over the foredeck nicely just as the masthead hits the water.

[JimC]

I believe when that much water has found it's way on to the deck the stern is 6 feet in the air and rising and I have parted company with the seat.

I have this silly vision of an automatic ballast tank:-) When the trim is normal water flows off the stern. When the trim is bow down water accumulates and restores the trim. to normal, and the water flows off.


Of course in practice it won't make any appreciabl difference because the forces are so big and the mass of the water relatively small.

[FoilerMothGuy]

the stern mounted rudder idea is simply one of ease of use over anything else, with the possibility of doing something immensely silly like mounting a t-foil rudder and centreboard at some stage if I ever felt the need to die a very swift and energetic death. To carry out that silly mission, it would be a nightmare to do the rudder any other way. Also, I got a few scares when launching and recovering the Lust Puppet from McCrae on the big wave day which would be aleviated by having a normal swinging rudder in a case... pull a string and it's down, and it can be down part way and still steerable instead of fiddling around with clips and the slot and either having no rudder or full rudder. Monkey has a stern mounted rudder also and it didn't seem to slow him down very much; but the execution of Alistair's rudder wasn't quite as neat as how I'd do it.

If it gets built, I'll probably build the internal structure to include a 'normal' rudder case though with the tiller passing over the top of the stern bar, just in case the stern mounted rudder didn't work out as planned.

[sailingkid]

Looks good Flying Colours!

[Steve Clark]

No paint on GER 78 yet. But the deck is down and the gunwales tabbed. The seat rails are installed. Chainplates, cleat bases and mast step is next before we start building the finish up. Because we are going for the varnished bdeck look, the deck will be almo0st completely finished before we flip the hull and "fear no fairing."
On the cockpit floor question, allow me to express some opinions.
For decades ICs have had decks that were ( at centerline) about 7" above the keel at the mast step and about 3" above the keel at the stern. This is a pretty satisfactory set of dimensions, and people who stray have had good reasons to do so, but have often found that the old guys had it about right.
On the Josie designs, I lowered the sheer height aft as well as the height of the deck, making the ass end of the boat much like a pin tail surfboard. The goal was to reduce surface area as much as possible ( for light build) and to keep the crews weight nice and low. This has worked well, but the lack of buoyancy in the stern does make some things more difficult. The boat will do an ender if you get your weight too far back for too long. Once she starts to go, there ain't no stopping her..... so it hasn't been 100% better than the tried and true.
On Second string ( or GER 78) I reverted to a more normal sheer height back aft. This is driven by the fact that the sliding seat carriage will be capable of being moved further aft, so I felt it only wise to have additional volume back there to support Roger during gybes.
I'm pretty sure Chris has thought his deck heights out very carefully and it will work well. Any problems will be unanticipated. But my Dad used to quote the Wright Brothers Rule of Aircraft Design: "No airplane has ever crashed from an anticipated failure."
Having good racing at the US Nationals today. Kells ran off 5 bullets today in light air. Oliver Moore, Dave Clark and I are following with variations of mixed results.
SHC

[Harry Belafonte]

Having good racing at the US Nationals today. Kells ran off 5 bullets today in light air. Oliver Moore, Dave Clark and I are following with variations of mixed results.
SHC

How's Mike doing?

TC

[RogerIC]

I felt it only wise to have additional volume back there to support Roger during gybes.

Steve
you have the full support of me and my 100+ kg fighting weight for this decision

Chris
I am surprised how many changes you made to your successfull string theory design and impressed about your courage to do so.
Either we will look behind you, because you are a step ahead again or you made a side move giving the other the chance to get on you level.

I cant wait to test this out somewhere on the water

Roger
(still) IC GER 68

[c maas]

Chris
I am surprised how many changes you made to your successfull string theory design and impressed about your courage to do so.
Either we will look behind you, because you are a step ahead again or you made a side move giving the other the chance to get on you level.

Roger
(still) IC GER 68

"The Great Leap Sideways" There could be a good name in there Roger. I can see the likeness of Chairman Mao on the sail...

Really the hull shapes are very similar, just some small tweeks here and there. Bigger changes above the waterline are mostly aimed at making the boat easier to sail. The sinker stern should be fun and is one reason for the flip down rudder. It should just be a matter of a quick lunge aft to set it. Once the boat is moving at a reasonable speed the water doesn't care how much air is inside your hull.
Otherwise the rigs are identical, the gybing board can be easily converted back if it doesn't pan out and the higher foredeck should pay for it's extra weight and windage by keeping water off the dance floor.

Right now my biggest pain is getting rid of the pin holes in the clear coat carbon. Exposed carbon - now there's a move that doesn't make much sense.

[RogerIC]

Exposed carbon - now there's a move that doesn't make much sense.

i have about 5 square meter exposed carbon on the bottom of my nethercott - but what troubles me is the furniture like wooden deck.

[atypicalguy]

"The Great Leap Sideways" There could be a good name in there Roger. I can see the likeness of Chairman Mao on the sail...

Really the hull shapes are very similar, just some small tweeks here and there. Bigger changes above the waterline are mostly aimed at making the boat easier to sail. The sinker stern should be fun and is one reason for the flip down rudder. It should just be a matter of a quick lunge aft to set it. Once the boat is moving at a reasonable speed the water doesn't care how much air is inside your hull.
Otherwise the rigs are identical, the gybing board can be easily converted back if it doesn't pan out and the higher foredeck should pay for it's extra weight and windage by keeping water off the dance floor.

Right now my biggest pain is getting rid of the pin holes in the clear coat carbon. Exposed carbon - now there's a move that doesn't make much sense.

Chris should 0.5oz glass be a standard overcoat on anything single skinned and carbon? I'm beginning to think so - esp with Nomex but I'm looking at some Ilett prepreg over foam sandwich right now and not only is it perfectly pinhole-free in a 3k weave - it seems to have a very tight weave to the surface reflection that makes me think it is not bare carbon - much tighter than the carbon weave by about four or five times but perfectly clear. He might just be putting an extra layer of film in there but I don't think so - I think it's glass. Just a thought.

Kells ran off 5 bullets today in light air. Oliver Moore, Dave Clark and I are following with variations of mixed results.
SHC

Go Mayhem - sorry to miss out this year guys.

KW

[c maas]

Chris should 0.5oz glass be a standard overcoat on anything single skinned and carbon? I'm beginning to think so - esp with Nomex but I'm looking at some Ilett prepreg over foam sandwich right now and not only is it perfectly pinhole-free in a 3k weave - it seems to have a very tight weave to the surface reflection that makes me think it is not bare carbon - much tighter than the carbon weave by about four or five times but perfectly clear. He might just be putting an extra layer of film in there but I don't think so - I think it's glass. Just a thought.

KW

And it's a good thought too. I've been using a 50gm glass that's a bear to lay down as the pin hole barrier over nomex/carbon. It makes the carbon look just a little milky though so this time I thought I'd be clever and put it under the carbon. It keeps the boat from sinking but I'm paying the price chasing those pin holes. I know this clear carbon thing can be done and have seen some beautiful examples but I haven't got it dialed yet. Maybe, like you say, Ilett's using a different type of very light glass.

[Phil S]

Nice canoes guys. Mine is awaiting a delivery drive.

Mark Thorpe's Hungry Tiger moths are a good example of pin hole elimination in the building process.
He used 125gsm carbon skins each side of 5mm foam but with a 16gsm (fine 3/4oz) glass on the outside. These were vynelester built in a mold with no gelcoat and no paint appled after release. He is a craftsman and was very careful in the lamination process.
Mine was the last built and at three years old only last week I polished it for the first time. The only slight pin hole evidence was up in the fine bow area where it is almost impossible to lay up the fibre anyway.

A few years ago Andrew and I built a foam carbon moth shell which we wanted to look like one of Mark's with a clear finish. We built over a male mold and used a single layer of 200gsm carbon. We did not have a pin hole problem due I guess to firstly filling and fairing the foam core and secondly using generous resin and squee geeing it off the outside of the peel ply so we knew that the carbon and peel ply were saturated. We did apply a clear urathane finish but it always looked the goods.

Nomex? I have no experience with but its on my list for my next boat so please keep posting your ideas and experience so I can avoid at least some traps.

[frank!]

"The Great Leap Sideways" ......

....., the gybing board .....

results of c areful and maas terly testing eagerly awaited!

[c maas]

Nice canoes guys. Mine is awaiting a delivery drive.

Mark Thorpe's Hungry Tiger moths are a good example of pin hole elimination in the building process.
He used 125gsm carbon skins each side of 5mm foam but with a 16gsm (fine 3/4oz) glass on the outside. These were vynelester built in a mold with no gelcoat and no paint appled after release. He is a craftsman and was very careful in the lamination process.
Mine was the last built and at three years old only last week I polished it for the first time. The only slight pin hole evidence was up in the fine bow area where it is almost impossible to lay up the fibre anyway.

A few years ago Andrew and I built a foam carbon moth shell which we wanted to look like one of Mark's with a clear finish. We built over a male mold and used a single layer of 200gsm carbon. We did not have a pin hole problem due I guess to firstly filling and fairing the foam core and secondly using generous resin and squeegeeing it off the outside of the peel ply so we knew that the carbon and peel ply were saturated. We did apply a clear urathane finish but it always looked the goods.

Nomex? I have no experience with but its on my list for my next boat so please keep posting your ideas and experience so I can avoid at least some traps.

Hey Phil,
Good to see a post from you here again.
I'm very interested in Mark Thorpe's building process. Do you know if he let that first skin of glass cure before placing the carbon? Did he bag the foam into the wet carbon? Have you noticed any surface finish problems like yellowing or much print through in your hot climate?

Nomex is a different animal - lots of tricks involved. Even two layers of 200gm carbon cloth will not make it water tight unless you use too much resin or you use a gel coat or if you squeegee some resin over the surface after cure. The light glass skin seems to be the way to go. And since you can't wet out fabric directly on the honeycomb you either need to wet it out on the table and shift it over ( a serious pain if you are working with big bias cut cloth) or what I do sometimes on panels without much compound curve is to lay up a flat panel on the shiny table, bag the nomex down, cure and the peel that off the table and bag it into the mold. You will amaze them all as they marvel at the smooth surface on both sides.

Anyway, Steve has lots more experience with this stuff and would be the man for nomex tips.

[Steve Clark]

Ah the pinhole hate dance!
I know of three ways to deal wit6h it.
The first is to use the best tool in the shop, the check book, and have some other poor bastard do it.
The second technique is to spray a film on the surface watch the pin holes appear and then wipe it with a hard rubber squeegee. This, in theory, pushes the clear coat into the pin holes. If you squeegee carefully, you can do the paint squeegee cycle until there are no more pin holes, and then proceed directly to building up your finish film.
The third way that I know of is to drown the surface, and then to dab globs into whatever holes still are open. After this mess cures, sand most of it off and spray the final coat.
I have had reasonable kick recently doing wet layup with nomex, but because I have been building A Cat hulls this way, the resin content can be higher than it would be if one were swinging for he absolute minimum weight. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mROBlWIu8q4 this link shows how some of our usual suspects have done it.
SHC

[atypicalguy]

And it's a good thought too. I've been using a 50gm glass that's a bear to lay down as the pin hole barrier over nomex/carbon. It makes the carbon look just a little milky though so this time I thought I'd be clever and put it under the carbon. It keeps the boat from sinking but I'm paying the price chasing those pin holes. I know this clear carbon thing can be done and have seen some beautiful examples but I haven't got it dialed yet. Maybe, like you say, Ilett's using a different type of very light glass.

Going over foam has got to be easier than going over honeycomb - even pressure should keep the resin content even across the surface. Plus he's using prepreg so less resin to run around - maybe you have extra resin in the little low spots. I dunno. I just made some plate which has the same problem you mention and I'm not sure what to do about it apart from putting a bit of glass on top. Bill had this issue with his Moth and George with the A-cat, so we've been dealing with it for awhile in various forms. Fairing is the obvious solution but goodbye clear carbon finish.

Could bag the outer skin in a separate step if you're really committed to the clear finish. Then there's 1k, but hate to think what that costs.

Or you could infuse it. And yes this is possible over honeycomb. Now that I think about it, that's probably the solution, though there would certainly be some process issues to sort out and more special materials expense.

[c maas]

Going over foam has got to be easier than going over honeycomb - even pressure should keep the resin content even across the surface. Plus he's using prepreg so less resin to run around - maybe you have extra resin in the little low spots. I dunno. I just made some plate which has the same problem you mention and I'm not sure what to do about it apart from putting a bit of glass on top. Bill had this issue with his Moth and George with the A-cat, so we've been dealing with it for awhile in various forms. Fairing is the obvious solution but goodbye clear carbon finish.

Could bag the outer skin in a separate step if you're really committed to the clear finish. Then there's 1k, but hate to think what that costs.

Or you could infuse it. And yes this is possible over honeycomb. Now that I think about it, that's probably the solution, though there would certainly be some process issues to sort out and more special materials expense.

Wait a minute. How could you possibly infuse with a honeycomb core? The deal with infusion is the resin goes everywhere, right? Tell us more.

[Phil S]

I'm very interested in Mark Thorpe's building process. Do you know if he let that first skin of glass cure before placing the carbon? Did he bag the foam into the wet carbon? Have you noticed any surface finish problems like yellowing or much print through in your hot climate?

Chris, I am not sure what Mark does, he was a bit secretive on this at the same time generous with a lot of other help when we started in moths.
I think he used the light glass outside and inside the outer carbon skin, because I saw some offcuts which seemed to have two layers of it. I think he uses the inner one to help bond to the foam, instead of bog. I know everything is very accurately cut to templates and he is very precise in assembly.

Karl, are you talking about John Ilett's hull or foils? I know he has been screeding the hulls to fill voids, sanding and painting, there are no clear finish prowlers. But he has made a lot of clear finish foils so must use a different technique there. Latest news is he will be getting hulls built in asia.

[atypicalguy]

I think he used the light glass outside and inside the outer carbon skin, because I saw some offcuts which seemed to have two layers of it. I think he uses the inner one to help bond to the foam, instead of bog. I know everything is very accurately cut to templates and he is very precise in assembly.

Karl, are you talking about John Ilett's hull or foils? I know he has been screeding the hulls to fill voids, sanding and painting, there are no clear finish prowlers. But he has made a lot of clear finish foils so must use a different technique there. Latest news is he will be getting hulls built in asia.

I like double glassing the outer skin outside and against the core. That sounds pretty good. Might have to do something similar to the inner skin with honeycomb, though, which adds four layers of light glass to the mix. Bill went with 2oz kevlar inside the outer skin I think.

Phil I was actually staring at a nice piece of bulkhead that I removed from around my DB trunk. Man, that thing was clear and flat and blemish-free. No way it was pure carbon - even over foam 5.7oz has surface relief with holes when you bag it. I really don't know how John made that plate. Might have put it in a press - it was that smooth. Just the faintest tiny scrim in the reflection - can't feel it at all, and way smaller pattern than the carbon. We are talking serious pressure I think. Interesting to see him shifting offshore, but not entirely surprising.

Chris let's chat offline about that.

[IC AUS]

Hurricanes new design has me very interested, a flatpack IC with a Steve Clark seat.

[ic blast]

I like double glassing the outer skin outside and against the core. That sounds pretty good. Might have to do something similar to the inner skin with honeycomb, though, which adds four layers of light glass to the mix. Bill went with 2oz kevlar inside the outer skin I think.

Phil I was actually staring at a nice piece of bulkhead that I removed from around my DB trunk. Man, that thing was clear and flat and blemish-free. No way it was pure carbon - even over foam 5.7oz has surface relief with holes when you bag it. I really don't know how John made that plate. Might have put it in a press - it was that smooth. Just the faintest tiny scrim in the reflection - can't feel it at all, and way smaller pattern than the carbon. We are talking serious pressure I think. Interesting to see him shifting offshore, but not entirely surprising.

Chris let's chat offline about that.

You guys have got to stop doing this; it's putting me off my own boat!

[ic blast]

Hurricanes new design has me very interested, a flatpack IC with a Steve Clark seat.

Incidentally, I've chosen to sink the dance floor below the gunwales at the measurement station and as (not unlike chris' new design) my chine runs right to the bow. Pic if I can get round to it -the cold is keeping me from the workshop at the mo...I know wuss!

[ICU2]

As requested here are some pics, so I can finally say its happened. Although there are a few who have been replying with great detail to my almost non stop flurry of questions, Im sure are convinced even without the pics that it has been happening.

One from the bow
 P8220212.JPG   1.11MB   76 downloads
One from the Stern
 P8220210.JPG   1.25MB   52 downloads

A big thanks to all who have helped out with info they didn't have to share, much appreciated.
At this point Im on target to be at or slightly above 50kg although I have a few things I can do which if needed should get me to the 50kg. At this stage I'm more interested in sailing my new boat. Its been my longest build ever due to many reason either to much work or not enough as well as a few other issues.

ICU2

[IC AUS]

A big thanks to all who have helped out with info they didn't have to share, much appreciated.
At this point Im on target to be at or slightly above 50kg although I have a few things I can do which if needed should get me to the 50kg. At this stage I'm more interested in sailing my new boat. Its been my longest build ever due to many reason either to much work or not enough as well as a few other issues.
ICU2

Looking good, will be great to race against a few new rules IC's at the Nationals in October (I start my build of the boat I plan to take to Germany after the Nationals)

For those people following this great thread and are interested in IC's in Australia, our Australian Championships will be at the Albury Wodonga Yacht Club (Lake Hume) on October 4th to 6th. Test rides will be available, and there is an option of being able to borrow/charter IC's for this event (PM me if you are interested in coming along for a test sail or competing).

[c maas]

 P8220212.JPG   1.11MB   76 downloads
ICU2

That looks very cool. How is it working with that flat tow 12k carbon? Hows the drape? Can you form it as easily as the smaller yarn stuff?

Geoff's flat pack boat seems promising. He must have the beam measurement station fairly far forward, like Josie, to get the sheer that low aft.

[ICU2]

That looks very cool. How is it working with that flat tow 12k carbon? Hows the drape? Can you form it as easily as the smaller yarn stuff?

I like working with the flat tow 12k, forming hasn't been a problem. I have made some smaller parts with it and it formed nicely. Although I have had different rolls that have been easier to work with than others.

[c maas]

I like working with the flat tow 12k, forming hasn't been a problem. I have made some smaller parts with it and it formed nicely. Although I have had different rolls that have been easier to work with than others.

Hey, why not put a clear finish on that? I dare ya.
My brother and proud sponsor ACME Has been using that in prepreg form on his Laser tillers and Fatso tiller extensions. Really looks good.



This was a really nice gybing board cassette. It was all done except for the post cure. Popped it in the oven and then the fricken foam expanded. ARRRGH!
 IC2.jpg   596.11K   63 downloads

[IC AUS]

Hey, why not put a clear finish on that? I dare ya.

It would look cool, but can he go away from white boats?

Anyone got any further news on the US Nationals?

[ICU2]

It would look cool, but can he go away from white boats?

Anyone got any further news on the US Nationals?

I think I need some practice on smaller parts before I go that big, carriage rails, mast, gate rudder cassette... few things come to mind. Who knows it may happen.

Bugger on the cassette, I know how you feel reminds me about vacuum not working recently.