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DC Designs


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#1 stinky

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 03:41 AM

As people trickle back to their lives: what worked, what didn't and whose boat should I start ripping off? I have space, time, and $ and I want to canoe.

#2 rocknodster

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:04 AM

It's being talked about in the other International Cano post (after all the goal is to have these new rules for all IC's - Classics and skinnies), but the choice of design is pretty open. No boat designs appeared slow, all felt fast.

My 2 cents for all converts to this awesome evolution in one of the oldest dinghy classes in the world is to buy a Nethercott (Classic) boat first and learn it for season, then sell it on, before committing to a new lighter boat. This will keep IC's circulating on the water, and ease the wear and tear on new light boats by having canoe skills banked early. Heck you might like the classic so much that you stick with it :D

#3 IC youth movement

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 04:20 AM

But if you want to build a boat by all mens go for it!

One of the big lessons I think everyone has learned and most people seem to agree with is to do what ever you can to keep everything low. Keeping the center of gravity down makes a huge difference in how easy th boat is to sail. The Chris Maas package was definitely very fast. Fast boat, fast rig, and a talented jockey. His hull has a very fine entry and feels very much like a catamaran, very low resistance and just kept accelerating and got up to speed quickly.

I've got to go board a plane but I'll get back with more when I get a chance.

Oliver

#4 ICU2

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 12:03 AM

DC Test Rides,

After a personally (Iím sure for all others also) successful 2008 IC Worlds I had the pleasure to take out three of the DCís for a sail. The wind was up and not getting any lighter also a bit gusty so not the best conditions to get a truly valuable opinion of all three as the conditions varied so much during each test sail.

First boat to sail was Josie my first reaction was bloody hell how fast is this, unreal I want one. Then I started to get used to the systems Steve has for his seat and hiking straps and was able to hike better like our much loved Nethercott hulls Josie went faster hiking hard not just a bit fast but much faster. Steve, Oliver and Willy had commented earlier before the regatta how noisy the Josie hulls are they were not kidding having sailed near them a week or two earlier you could hear they made some noise, its not until you are on them you really hear the ďtouch downĒ slamming of the bow on waves to windward in particular. Even with the noise the boat was an extremely nice ride much better then I thought, if the plank and hiking system was more like what I have become used to over the last couple of decades and I didnít have other DCís to test I may still be out on the water days later. When I turned around and went down hill on a very hot broad reach with wind gusting around 18knots + I was really impressed on how hard I was able to push the boat at an angle were I though I would have pitch pole for sure (believe me I tried) she just kept getting faster with the bow not even thinking about hooking up. Any large wave the bow met up with was just cut through with little noticeable resistance. The planning sensation was well and truly present up and down wind.

Boat two was John Kells DC ďPterodactylĒ again the system of the plank and sheet was odd for me the boat felt nice the noise from the hull was gone from Josie she was a really nice boat very much a really fast smooth Nethercott to sail went through the water easily a little more stable aft during turns than Josie but only a little. Off the wind the bow was a little more likely to hook up due to some rather strange noises around the mast gate I was hesitant to push hard like I did with Josie I felt I could push Josie much harder than Pterodactyl with the later being a smoother ride without the noise. I would have to say thatís just my gut feeling I would really like to have had the chance to push as hard as I did on Josie to prove my feeling right or wrong. I also has an issue with the rudder lock down which caused the rudder to lift out of the slot limiting steering which due to the narrower tipy hull compared to the Nethercott was a little tricky in the conditions to sort out especially when I wasnít quite sure how it worked, which was really simple and easy once I got back to sure and could look at the system while standing still (pity I didnít look at it before I went out). John has a really nice boat some time tuning and getting all the little things spot on as with Josie will produce a really fast competitive package.

Last but not least was the DC I had been drooling over ever since I saw the first picture on the www.intcanoe.org was ďString TheoryĒ the most beautifully built and presented boat I can remember seeing for a long time (the bar has been lifted once again, I need to go away to learn how to try and match Chrisís efforts). First impression was who stole the other hull is this a monohull or a big Catamaran the bow just cut through the water so smoothly and went so dam fast yet felt like she was hardly moving she was so smooth, until a bigger wave cam through and hooked the hull back at the shrouds then you could really get an idea of just how fast the boat was going as the boat slowed down and then accelerated of after clearing the water with more than ample amount of travel on the carriage this was easily fixed by moving the carriage to raise the bow just a little which was enough to just clear the shrouds for 95% of the waves around that day. Down hill the bow was well and truly in the water while pushing hard where Josieís was clear, it didnít seam to make that much difference other than the heart rate going a little harder while waiting for the bow to really hook up and send me flying yet it didnít happen. Like any other higher performance boat keeping the eye out for a gust and adjusting for it as it hit would allow the hull to sail through the gust with ease, pushing hard on String Theory was far more doable than I thought. Chrisís plank and sheeting system was more like what Iím used to the only thing I didnít really get to like was the self taking jib maybe with some more time in easier conditions to get used to the self taker I might get to like it.

In summary this is for me the way forward for the IC they have the qualities which define for me an IC, pointy ends, hiking plank, main sail and jib the hull is extremely easily pushed through the water without having to over complicate it. Comparing the Nethercott to the DC is like comparing a Hobie 14 to an ďA CatĒ the ride is so much smoother and faster. Josie is the hull you can push beyond belief without fear, but bloody noisy. Pterodactyl is a really smooth, really fast Nethercott (by no means at all slow compared to Josie and String Theory), String Theory was the smoothest ride, like sailing a big cat at high speed with less of the planning sensation that monohull sailors enjoy so much. In the end I have come off the water with my head spinning any ideas I had before are so confused I need to really have a good think about what I will do when I build my new breed of International Canoe. Defending my IC World Championship in Germany will be an extremely tough challenge.

ICU2

#5 rocknodster

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 12:20 AM

Excellent Review ICU2, seems everyone has sailed my new boat but me - roll on tomorrow! We'll have to make sure we copy these reviews over to the IC Forum aswell (www.intcanoe.org/forum2)

#6 Steve Clark

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 04:20 AM

I think I over cooked the flat in the bow, so I intend to increase the radius of the turn of the bilge in the first meter of the canoe. This will make the underwater sections quite round for the first foot or so and will quiet things down. I liked the pitch damping of the big waterplane, and while it isn't necesarily bad to "slam" it did seem a bit stickier than it might be at times. New A cats slap and slam a whole lot more than the Mk 4 variety.
All these boats felt different, but all seemed to race pretty evenly, so perhaps the rule works!
Stinky, where art thou? how can we help you?
SHC

#7 IC youth movement

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 07:20 AM

Here are my observations and thoughts following the IC worlds re the different designs. I was sailing one of the three Josie hulls that were there. Steve Clark finished second on his and Steveís son Willy also had one. Steve and I had identical rigs but I was using a different foil package. Steveís were his standard issue which heís been using on nethercots for a while, pretty big board and the rudder is the same as the tip of the board. I used a set of 505 molds built for the Pegasus guys, and I was gibing the board. After the event Iím pretty sold that it is worth it. I was able to climb on everyone and had speed, definitely a winner.

Hull shapes:

The Josie hulls have a rectangular section forward, very full and flat. Itís very loud in the waves but you can push them harder and harder and she just skips right along. Steve is talking about rounding out the section a bit to try and quite them down a bit. We had one day with good 6-8 foot swells and when you fell off one of them the landing was definitely jarring, but Iím not sure how bad of a thing it is. Compared to the other hulls it seems to me that we operate in a much more of a planning mode. If you had the knuckle in the water she would sort of get stuck on it but you could easily pop it out and once you did she would skip along with the front six inches clear of the water. Definitely much more of a planning dinghy type of feel to it than the others.

Chris Maasís boat, String Theory, has a very different feel to it. It felt much more like a catamaran. String theory has a very very fine entry with a more rounded section. She feels very low drag, I never felt her get stuck and she got up to speed very quickly. The boat moving through the water looks smooth and effortless. In the video it looks like we were flogging the Josies much harder. Iím not really sure how much of a penalty Chris is paying having the winglets for the shrouds. At times he looked like he was shedding quite a bit of water off them, but we never had really choppy conditions. In talking with Chris he is thinking about adding some more volume down low forward to give him a little confidence in the bow not going down. The other thing he told me he was planning on doing was lowering everything as much as possible. Keeping the center of gravity as low as possible seems to make a huge difference in how stable they are.

We spent a day trading boats after the event and it was shocking how different each of the different hulls were, and yet the racing was incredibly close. Allistar Warrenís Monkey had a completely different feel to it. She was wider than the others but she was always right there in the racing. Only sailed her for a little while so I canít really say too much about her.

Del Olsenís Donkey was very interesting. Del took the bottom of a NOGO 55 hull, which is Bill Beaverís design to the old one design rule, then cut it down and stuck vertical topsides on it. He made the bow as fine as he could, which ended up around the same as the Josies. I was most struck by how docile she was. In my short sail on here she seemed to me to be the best behaved of all the DC hulls. Del was working through some issues (he started building in August or something crazy like that) but had some definite moments of speed.

John Kellsís Mayhem proved to be a very nice little boat. She is somewhat more along the Josie lines but a little less aggressive. John also had some breakages but definitely showed speed. He was right in the game upwind and I couldnít hold on to him on the reaches. My biggest concern with the Josie hulls is that I was definitely slower than most on the reaches. Not sure how much of that is the hull and how much of that was how I was sailing the boat. Iíve never been particularly fast on the reaches but I had a very hard time holding on to people this last week. But when the reach was pretty fine and you could really light it up and get into a full planning mode I felt like I was moving on people. But definitely need more time in the boat to get a real sense of it.

Phil Stevensonís 21st Century Hollow Log is another one that is very different from the others. I sailed her in the Aussie nationals over last Easter so have a pretty good sense of what she can do. Down wind and on the reaches she is absolutely blazingly fast. The hull is very slippery and with the big mainsail Phil was able to do quite a bit of damage off the wind. Upwind he struggled a little, but he wasnít falling out the back. But I am extremely impressed by how successful Phil was in keeping her upright. It was all I could do to gybe her in breeze, but Iím sure Philís moth experience helped. Its hard to say what is doing what because she is so different than the others in so many ways. It would be interesting to see her with a standard rig on her, because I have a feeling that the hull could be very fast. But then again it could be all in the rig. Part of me thinks that it is the way of the future, every other class that has the option to put all the area in the main has done so. Yet a 10 square meter sail is a mighty big sail and my biggest struggle on her was catching the boom in the water. So Iím not sure.

I didnít actually get a chance to sail Phil Robinís Scarlet Oíhara. She was designed by Phil Morrison and built by Andy Paterson, so sheís got a pretty damn good pedigree. Phil like many of us struggle from having too few hours in the boat and as a result had some kinks to work out. But the boat showed some jets. He was the only one to beat Chris (Steve won one when Chris broke his tiller extension), and that was on the day with the big swells. I was first to the weather mark and he just blew by me on the reaches and he was gone after that. Itís a pity that we didnít see more of her because I think she could be a real winner. Steve did sail her and he seemed impressed.

Rob Patterson from Toronto sailed Wonk, she was Steveí first attempt at the new rules and very much the predecessor to Josie. Rob struggled quite a bit as it was his first real IC event and he definitely didnít do Wonk justice. Wonk provided many lessons that went into the changes in Josie but there is definitely some potential there. The most striking thing about Wonk is her reversed wave-piercing bow. She does pitch pole fairly easily if you arenít careful and far enough back, there is great video of Rob going over that will hopefully be a hit on youtube, but Iím not convinced that it is wrong. There are some other issues with her that make her a little tough to handle but I think there is a lot of potential there.

The last one is Geoff Harmanís, she didnít show particularly well, but weíre not sure that itís an issue with the hull. The rig was definitely sub par and I think Geoff was struggling a bit, so really hard to make any sort of assessment on the boat.

The other DC was Dave Clark in Alice, who is anything but a new boat. Sheís USA 92, and Steveís first IC back in the 70s and she wasnít new then. When Steve was rebuilding her he pinched the bows a little too much so she no longer measured in a nethercot, but she does under the new rule. So Steve and Dave did a beautiful job putting her back together and got her down to 70 kg. Sheís got the same rig and foils as the rest of the Clark boats and was actually pretty quick in the light stuff.


A couple things about the event itself: The Aussies did a fantastic job putting it on, and the McCrae YC team are probably the best RC Iíve ever dealt with. We had a full mixture of conditions, everything from 18 kts to very light stuff. All good racing though. The racing was exceptionally competitive often with only a couple of boat lengths separating us at the finish. As far as the comparison between the new boats and the nethercots: we were definitely faster but were certainly just walking around them. In the pre-worlds we all started together and most of the time it was all new rules at the front but in a couple of the really light stuff Hayden, who ended up world champ, was right there at the front. During the worlds it was often a strug gle to make up the 5 minute lead we spotted them. Chris and Steve caught the leaders a couple of times but usually the by the end the leaders on the DCs were in the midst of the IC leaders. But great racing and Iím looking forward to the next one in Germany.

On politics: the plan for the new rules is that we vote on them becoming the International Canoe rule in April or so. That would mean that there would be no distinction between ICs and DCs they would all be ICs. The sense I got from the worlds was that there is generally strong support for this. The Australians are certainly excited. The Germans seem intrigued and it I think the Brits are on board. Kind of hard to tell. The Swedes however are the only ones who are openly against it. The class there is struggling as it is and there is no interest in building new boats, which is too bad. We had our usual class meeting at the worlds and when a straw pole was taken for the change the response was pretty much unanimous support, which is good. So I think it will all go through, but we should know soon. By enlarge the overwhelming sentiment I got from the other competitors was excitement about where the class was heading and a feeling that we are embarking on the next chapter of the story of the International Canoe.

One final note, its great news that there were 10 sailors in the fleet in their 20s or younger, and only half were related to each other! The youth movement is growing!

So all and all a great event and there is promise for a bright future for the class.


Oliver Moore
USA 240

#8 IC youth movement

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 07:27 AM

cant seem to log on to the class site at the moment. Someone mind pasting that over there

Thanks

#9 rocknodster

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 08:13 AM

cant seem to log on to the class site at the moment. Someone mind pasting that over there

Thanks


Great Report, and I've put it on the IC Forum. The Josie hull comments echo what I found racing today - in the flat water they pretty much plane everywhere and are very quick. Nethercotts are awesome, these just take it to a whole new level!

#10 Phil S

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:37 AM

What a great regatta. It was really good meeting so many Internet friends, and racing agains all the other DCs.

From design perspective it was clear that Chis Maas' boat was just faster than everthing else there. He won more races than the results show as in the pre WC series he forgot to sign on a couple of days. I had a sail of his boat on the NYC day and agree it goes through the water like a cat. Compared to Steve's Josie, Del's, and John's boats, it just felt slipperier. But it was not unstable. By comparison my Log was more like Chis' boat than the others. It cuts the water like an cat too, but being higher wooded it a bit wobbly at times. The high bow also means it continues to cut waves downwind when the other boats are backing off.

I am happy with my hull shape. In light and heavy I passed boats reaching and downwind, incuding Chris at least a couple of times. My upwind was poor compared to the DCs but on a par with the best ICs, which I knew from racing Seth late last year, but it was not good enough at the regatta.

I think the downwind speed proves that the hull is good, but the upwind speed shows the rig is below par. I will experiment more with the una rig before deciding on switching to sloop.

Some of the preworld races were shortened at downwind marks so my places were better than in the WC where all races were finished upwind as required by Canoe Racing rules. If we were counted at the last downwind mark I would maybe have placed about 4 or 5 boats better. I also lost two races when the seat split, and then the carriage consequently let me down the next day. But at least now I have a better idea on how to build good light seats and carriages after see how the rest of the world do it.

Congratulations to Hayden and Chris. Compliments to Steve for creating the DC concept, building what seemed like half the fleet, and bring his whole family to sail them. Well done to Chris, Del, John, Alister, and Phil in creating some great boats and tough competition. Thanks for all the positive comments about my boat. Also excited about the skippers meeting endorsing the proposed change to DC rules for future IC WC events. (It still needs a formal international vote.)

So all the fence sitters go and build one.

#11 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 01:38 PM

cant seem to log on to the class site at the moment. Someone mind pasting that over there

Thanks


Great review! Now I might have to get a job instructing this summer to pay for building one of these things!

P.S- Where are these videos?

TC

#12 rocknodster

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 08:41 PM

Great review! Now I might have to get a job instructing this summer to pay for building one of these things!

P.S- Where are these videos?

TC


Videos should be finished editing soon and be getting posted out by the end of the month (thats the Worlds one), a month or so later for the Class promotional DVD (from which we hope to have some good footage on you tube).

#13 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:50 PM

Videos should be finished editing soon and be getting posted out by the end of the month (thats the Worlds one), a month or so later for the Class promotional DVD (from which we hope to have some good footage on you tube).


oooo a promo DVD? I like what I'm reading...

TC

#14 Phil S

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 11:11 PM

I covered all the visiting boats but missed the other Aussie one. Geoff's boat was as good as anyone but his sails were too flat and undersize. He did well for the oldest guy in our fleet, and ashore he and Marilyn were great company.
Of course we all owe heaps to the Knotts who organised the thing and to McCrae YC who did very well despite un co-operative winds.

#15 gui

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 01:26 AM

I like you guy's prose, but where are the pics?

#16 rocknodster

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 02:02 AM

I like you guy's prose, but where are the pics?

We were hamstrung a bit by fast internet access at the Worlds, so I'm waiting for pics to trickle back to me (so I can upload them and write some wrap up reports for you guys and sponsors). Some pics can be found here: http://www.internati...g...ews/10537/0

#17 k76

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:33 PM

Hi all,


Sorry I couldn't make it to the worlds, but congrats to you all.
Thanks for everyone's writeups on the DC designs.
Was there any great differences in the relative performance of the boats in different conditions? I always expected Chris' machine to be a killer in a blow, but that maybe the narrower stern designs would have their day in lighter conditions? Or is the crossover windspeed so low as to be irrelevant?

Same thing with the UNA rig, did it show promise in the lighter conditions?

#18 Phil S

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:13 PM

Chris' boat was fast in all weather. He was beaten once by Steve in a drift by the luck of the wind, and on once by Phil Robin in moderate winds and rough water, when his low freeboard migt have been an issue. Some of us got close at times but he always had speed to get away again. His hull did not suffer from the wide stern. Is 750mm wide anyway?
The una sail Hollow Log was fast reaching and running. Its not clear if the sail was fast or the hull. Thinks were not so good upwind compared to the other DCs. Results reflect fact that most races finishe dupwind not downwind.
Problem might be a combination of una rig, unstayed mast, or even carriage position too far aft. I will work on it next winter.

#19 Steve Clark

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:31 AM

What I thought after the boat swap was that the boats all felt like very different animals, but seemed to be similarly quick.
I recall a boat swap with Erich Chase sometime around 2001. We both felt the other's boat felt much better ( and faster) than our own and we split races throughout the series. I like the way Phil and Chris's boat slide along, but Chris will be the first to tell you that you have to be pretty careful down wind in big waves or wind with his boat. I think he wants to add some freeboard and volume forward on the next edition, but as always, does this slow him down?
It should be pointed out that Chris had done a superb job of sorting this project. Since I first raced against him in Marion, he made all the crunchy bits tough enough, built a second dagger board, bought a jib cut to the same pattern as we had, and found Anders Peterson and convinced him to make a mainsail. When I learned that last bit, I was pretty dispirited. Anders' mains are really special and I hadn't managed to make the connection, so I felt out gunned.
The more pointy sterned boats don't seem to give up much ever. Phil's boat will be miles easier to sail if he cuts the freeboard down and thus lowers the crew's CG. This will make sailing the hollow log much less like balancing on one. I have spent more than a few minutes during the last week thinking of how to cross Phil's construction with Chris's general concept, as it seems that it would be easy to fold up a canoe that was "about like that."
Of course I'm not sure how many people want to take the cheap and easy way to building a boat like this. There is something to be said for the drool factor.
The Morisson and the Kells are very very nice canoes, both of which had less than 3 hours of sailing before hitting the water in McCrae, so it would be impossible to say anything about them except that they have shown great potential and cannot be dismissed. I liked the way they moved when I sailed them.
My own effort is certainly in tho mix. Oliver probably shot himself in the foot by getting wrapped up in he I-14 last summer and not getting Uncle Walter done anywhere near in time to get sorted out, so he too was doing the sort dance instead of really racing for much of the regatta. Josie is fast, I am going to narrow the waterlines forward just a tad and increase the radius at the turn of the bilge.
As Hayden says, she is really fun to drive on reaches because she seems to flirt with disaster but mostly avoid it. You CAN drive her under, as Willy will attest, But you have to work pretty hard to do it. So, just as Chris thinks String Theory is just on the too dangerous side of OK, I think Josie might be just on the too safe side of OK.
Anyway exciting times ahead, I hope many new people want to come and play with whet I think are extraordinary boats.
SHC

#20 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:38 AM

What I thought after the boat swap was that the boats all felt like very different animals, but seemed to be similarly quick.
I recall a boat swap with Erich Chase sometime around 2001. We both felt the other's boat felt much better ( and faster) than our own and we split races throughout the series. I like the way Phil and Chris's boat slide along, but Chris will be the first to tell you that you have to be pretty careful down wind in big waves or wind with his boat. I think he wants to add some freeboard and volume forward on the next edition, but as always, does this slow him down?
It should be pointed out that Chris had done a superb job of sorting this project. Since I first raced against him in Marion, he made all the crunchy bits tough enough, built a second dagger board, bought a jib cut to the same pattern as we had, and found Anders Peterson and convinced him to make a mainsail. When I learned that last bit, I was pretty dispirited. Anders' mains are really special and I hadn't managed to make the connection, so I felt out gunned.
The more pointy sterned boats don't seem to give up much ever. Phil's boat will be miles easier to sail if he cuts the freeboard down and thus lowers the crew's CG. This will make sailing the hollow log much less like balancing on one. I have spent more than a few minutes during the last week thinking of how to cross Phil's construction with Chris's general concept, as it seems that it would be easy to fold up a canoe that was "about like that."
Of course I'm not sure how many people want to take the cheap and easy way to building a boat like this. There is something to be said for the drool factor.
The Morisson and the Kells are very very nice canoes, both of which had less than 3 hours of sailing before hitting the water in McCrae, so it would be impossible to say anything about them except that they have shown great potential and cannot be dismissed. I liked the way they moved when I sailed them.
My own effort is certainly in tho mix. Oliver probably shot himself in the foot by getting wrapped up in he I-14 last summer and not getting Uncle Walter done anywhere near in time to get sorted out, so he too was doing the sort dance instead of really racing for much of the regatta. Josie is fast, I am going to narrow the waterlines forward just a tad and increase the radius at the turn of the bilge.
As Hayden says, she is really fun to drive on reaches because she seems to flirt with disaster but mostly avoid it. You CAN drive her under, as Willy will attest, But you have to work pretty hard to do it. So, just as Chris thinks String Theory is just on the too dangerous side of OK, I think Josie might be just on the too safe side of OK.
Anyway exciting times ahead, I hope many new people want to come and play with whet I think are extraordinary boats.
SHC


Thanks for another perspective on things. On the other side of things, was there anything else that you noted to make a good difference? One question is does the jib stick provide a worthy advantage? Also, were most of the boats using square top mains? If so, was the difference notable?

TC

#21 Steve Clark

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:53 AM

Thanks for another perspective on things. On the other side of things, was there anything else that you noted to make a good difference? One question is does the jib stick provide a worthy advantage? Also, were most of the boats using square top mains? If so, was the difference notable?

TC

Plenty of square tops.
Jib stick seemed to help,
Oliver is sold on his gybing board.
Hayden proved that time in a well sorted boat trumps all.
SHC

#22 Phil S

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:55 AM

Everyone seems to think my Hollow Log was wobbly. I thought so too a year ago but must have got used to it. I thought everyone else's boats were very stable.
I think I swam only a few times in the races. Once was when I pulled the fin out to clear weed and got an unsettling wave. And I remenber at least two dud tacks. There might have been one or two bad gybes.
If someone buys it I would build it lower next time, but the same shape.

#23 gui

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:07 AM

Plenty of square tops.
Jib stick seemed to help,
Oliver is sold on his gybing board.
Hayden proved that time in a well sorted boat trumps all.
SHC


But most important of all, now that the worlds are over, what's the next toy that will come out of the lab of luxury?

#24 Steve Clark

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:38 AM

But most important of all, now that the worlds are over, what's the next toy that will come out of the lab of luxury?

I have to finish Dave Penfeild's A cat.
I have to replace "Dunenuf" who I killed in a fit of anger at the A Class worlds.
Then I have to replace josie.
Current thoughts are to modify the bow by narrowing the waterlines a bit and changing the turn of the bilge to be less chine like in the first meter or so of the boat and see what that does. It is pretty easy to do these changes to the Josie mold. I am also thinking about how to roll up a plywood version of String Theory. It would be interesting to try if people thought they could/would build boats that way. Otherwise the mold rules.
SHC

#25 TheFlash

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 05:19 PM

What's the current build method of the boats? build a plug and female mold?

Are there common scantlings folks are building too? I'm contemplating a project now that my workshop is complete and a canoe would fit nicely. I've also got some foam/carbon laying around that needs to be put to good use.

Anyone publish any of the recent designs?

#26 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:38 PM

What's the current build method of the boats? build a plug and female mold?

Are there common scantlings folks are building too? I'm contemplating a project now that my workshop is complete and a canoe would fit nicely. I've also got some foam/carbon laying around that needs to be put to good use.

Anyone publish any of the recent designs?


There have been a couple different methods. It seems that most are building a plug and female mold and building off of that. However, there are exceptions to that like Wonk and PhilS' canoe that are out of ply. They are a little different in construction as Wonk is ply and a layer of carbon cloth where IIRC, PhilS' is ply with carbon on the seams and the high load places.

TC

#27 rocknodster

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:20 PM

Anyone publish any of the recent designs?


IC (DC) designs

http://www.internati...pments/13267/0/

Pics
http://www.internati....asp?Page=34107

#28 Phil S

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:20 PM

For Hollow Log construction see also:
http://www.internati...g...2F13920/0/0

#29 TheFlash

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:31 PM

Perfect, thanks,

With regards to the issue of a stayed rig, does the canoe class allow carbon tubes(as deck spreaders) or is there a hull continuity requirement?

#30 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:38 PM

Perfect, thanks,

With regards to the issue of a stayed rig, does the canoe class allow carbon tubes(as deck spreaders) or is there a hull continuity requirement?


No deck spreaders allowed. If you check out String Theory, you will notice that the hull has carbon tubes, but the hull shape accommodates the tubes.

TC

#31 Phil S

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:48 PM

The hull rule has plan form shape requirements limiting curvature and allowing only one inflection each side. It is intended the hulls look like canoes not porcupines. There is no rule about rigging so big spreaders low on the mast are OK.

#32 gui

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 09:43 PM

What's the current build method of the boats? build a plug and female mold?

Are there common scantlings folks are building too? I'm contemplating a project now that my workshop is complete and a canoe would fit nicely. I've also got some foam/carbon laying around that needs to be put to good use.

Anyone publish any of the recent designs?


Join the fun Mitch ... I miss kicking your ass (or was it the other way around?)
3 things about the canoe guys:
1-They don't how to properly use a heat gun
2- " make hulls out of cotton
3-They've kissed their sisi at least once :blink:

#33 TheFlash

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:04 PM

I think it ended up being you kicking my ass....

#34 gui

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:26 PM

I think it ended up being you kicking my ass....


And that's how it should be. Damnit.
Have you tryed one yet? It's pretty addictive, you'll see.

#35 Norm

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:52 PM

Steve,

I tyhink a few people would be interested in a roll up style build for home build.

#36 Steve Clark

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 12:49 AM

The scantlings of the new boats is pretty much a layer or 200 g/m^2 ( or 5.7 oz) carbon cloth on either side of some 6mm (1/4") foam core. H80 density or equivalent.
There are patches and doublers in high load areas, but 50 yards or so builds the boat and bits with a very little left over.
The plywood boats are built out of 3mm ply with some ammount of carbon or kevlar on either the inside or outside. There are more bulkheads or ribs needed to stiffen the plywood boat so you can build over a series of frames or stuff foam bulkheads in as per Phil's method/
The rules are here:http://www.intcanoe.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=687
And there are a lots of pictures of the various processes at http://www.intcanoe....mid,84/catid,2/
I am still in Oz, but have been doing some doodling on Log Theory. I would have to build at least one model to see how things behaved, so give me a chance to get home and try some things out.
SHC

#37 Phil S

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 03:04 AM

Steve, and other ply boat potentials,
The foam and ply bulkheads do not get stuufed in, they are not intended to change the shape but retain it. They are fitted to the hull shape as determined by the ply cut out shape, by how it is spread and stressed prior to doing the seams, and how it is pulled back to design beam after seaming. Pushing in poorly fitting bulheads only makes bumps.
Phil S

#38 Steve Clark

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 04:39 AM

Steve, and other ply boat potentials,
The foam and ply bulkheads do not get stuufed in, they are not intended to change the shape but retain it. They are fitted to the hull shape as determined by the ply cut out shape, by how it is spread and stressed prior to doing the seams, and how it is pulled back to design beam after seaming. Pushing in poorly fitting bulheads only makes bumps.
Phil S

Sorry for the verb, I didn't mean what you interpreted. I always "stuff" things inside hulls as a self depricating way of describing my ability to cut and fit things.
SHC

#39 ic blast

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 01:51 AM

Started my DC build - just jig at the mo. but taking shape! Based very loosely (down to min beam) on Lust Puppet offsets provided by Steve; Cheers by the way! Took a bit of rocker out
Aiming to stitch/glue/carbon 3mm gaboon ply reminisant of Phils holllow log. Hopefully keep it down to weight
As it is my first build I'm trying to keep it simple - nice hard chines should keep her pretty stable.
Attached File  jig1.jpg   99.94K   64 downloads
Any advice much appreciated.
AP

#40 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 02:07 AM

Started my DC build - just jig at the mo. but taking shape! Based very loosely (down to min beam) on Lust Puppet offsets provided by Steve; Cheers by the way! Took a bit of rocker out
Aiming to stitch/glue/carbon 3mm gaboon ply reminisant of Phils holllow log. Hopefully keep it down to weight
As it is my first build I'm trying to keep it simple - nice hard chines should keep her pretty stable.
Attached File  jig1.jpg   99.94K   64 downloads
Any advice much appreciated.
AP


It'll be fun to see how it turns out. I was thinking about doing a similar project next year for my senior experience project but there are so many routes to go. What are you planning on doing with the exterior of the hull(carbon or glass?)

TC

#41 gui

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 02:13 AM

Started my DC build - just jig at the mo. but taking shape! Based very loosely (down to min beam) on Lust Puppet offsets provided by Steve; Cheers by the way! Took a bit of rocker out
Aiming to stitch/glue/carbon 3mm gaboon ply reminisant of Phils holllow log. Hopefully keep it down to weight
As it is my first build I'm trying to keep it simple - nice hard chines should keep her pretty stable.
Attached File  jig1.jpg   99.94K   64 downloads
Any advice much appreciated.
AP


You should pm atypicalguy ... He is the current owner of LP. Better yet, drop a mail to Mr Beaver. I bet they have some idea on how to improve LP.
Good luck with the project.

#42 Phil S

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 03:20 AM

At McCrae Lust Puppet looked wide, blunt and heavy compared to the new DCs. Jon sailed well often enough to show it was not really up to pace with 2007.

The shadows set up in the photo look like your boat is too blunt, maybe too wide and in my pinion too Veed, by today's standards. I like rounded sections below the chine to minimise wetted surface although Allister's boat proved a V bow is fast enough.

To build a stressed ply boat like the Log does not require any jig at all. At least some of the intrinsic strength comes form stressing the panels into curved sections. If you lay plyt sheets over that jig the flat panels will require additional support inside, so it might not be as easy to get down to weight.
FWIW
Phil S

#43 atypicalguy

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 07:50 AM

At McCrae Lust Puppet looked wide, blunt and heavy compared to the new DCs. Jon sailed well often enough to show it was not really up to pace with 2007.

The shadows set up in the photo look like your boat is too blunt, maybe too wide and in my pinion too Veed, by today's standards. I like rounded sections below the chine to minimise wetted surface although Allister's boat proved a V bow is fast enough.

To build a stressed ply boat like the Log does not require any jig at all. At least some of the intrinsic strength comes form stressing the panels into curved sections. If you lay plyt sheets over that jig the flat panels will require additional support inside, so it might not be as easy to get down to weight.
FWIW
Phil S


Of course LP is wider and heavier than DCs. She was built to an entirely different rule when the minimum weight was much higher. She is class legal at IC regattas in the US under the old National Canoe rule, which the DC rule was largely cribbed from. But she was never legal in international IC competition because she was built in 1985 or so by Bill Beaver, and the only National Canoes grandfathered into the IC rule were built before 1960 or something.

If you were in turn to compare a Nethercott to Lust Puppet, the Nethercott would look wide and blunt. DCs should be viewed as another iteration down the same path as Lust Puppet took - long before it was fashionable or there was any talk of making it class legal BTW.

In terms of competitiveness, I really do not think it fair to either Jon or the boat to say that he sailed her to her or his potential, as he had never laid eyes on her prior to the event, and she had some structural issues during the event. I sailed and improved her for three or four years and actually only toward the end of that time felt I was sailing her to her potential - occasionally taking some races off people like John Kells and Bill and at least mixing it up with the front of the IC fleet when I sailed well. This is doing pretty well considering their boats were/are carbon/nomex and I was sailing twenty year old plywood with a seat that sticks to the water like white on rice when it hits, and a plywood shark fin rudder from the same era. Jon may be a much better sailor than I am, but that boat takes some getting used to.

So to say she is not up to pace with 2007 depends upon what boat you are comparing her to. She sailed as a DC at Worlds because the US fleet wanted to put the class on a firm footing numbers-wise, and she clearly does not meet international IC rules. But her performance should really be evaluated vis-a-vis the the Nethercott if Apples are to be compared with Apples. I would say that with a better seat and carriage, a modern more balanced rudder, and some lowers, she would be fully competitive with any Nethercott across a range of conditions, and superior in the light. Full carbon boats are lighter in the ends but LP cuts through chop better and cuts down on wetted surface enough offwind in the light to compensate. She is markedly more tender than most Nethercotts however and this sometimes spells disaster in the tacks. The V-bottom raises the chines high enough that they do not do much for stability, because by the time they hit the water the rig has enough roll momentum to just carry on in whatever direction it happens to be rolling. She probably has too much rocker though this can be fun in the breeze on reaches and upwind when the whole front of the boat is up in the air. The only reason people are still talking about that boat is because she showed that moving away from the Nethercott hull shape could create real performance improvements, and could be easier to build at the same time, from basic plywood. This is the lesson to be learned from the boat in my view. Now of course we have a whole gaggle of DCs demonstrating the potential of alternative hull shapes, but they are much lighter of course, and many are carbon/foam.

Bill iterated on LP and Sock Puppet (now Gui's boat) was the result. In terms of hull performance she met most of Bill's goals which if I recall correctly included better performance to windward in chop and more initial stability (from an arc bottom and two chines per side rather than one). She was built by John Williamson with an aluminum carriage and Bill has told me more than once that he felt he was never able to sail her to her potential because she was not set up to his liking in terms of DB position, rig, seat/carriage, etc. He fixed some of these things over time but never really got the boat set up to his liking.

Bill has said on the Canoe list that he feels he could make a minimum-weight chined Sock Puppet-like DC from plywood reinforced strategically with composites. I think it was 2mm sides/bottom and 3mm deck. The goal here is to provide people with the interest and motivation an easy way to put a hull together at minimum weight and cost. The thought would be to have these panels CNC'd by a wood shop like Chesapeake Light Craft and then use stitch-and-glue methodology to form the hull without a jig, or just print the patterns and cut by hand. How such a boat would perform against the current crop of DCs is anyone's guess, but that's what the rule is all about, right? Build your idea and see how it shakes out on the course.

I did take SP's lines and remove some beam, then converted the bottom to two flat panels creating a shallow V bottom and hopefully more stability. I have unfolded these panels in a CAD program and can send the file to whomever wants it, provided Bill is OK with that (he is still in NZ I think). Bill said he liked the look of the result but I'm sure he would blast out another iteration in Maxsurf or whatever he uses at work before building anything. IIRC I am at min beam at the bottom of the box and wider at the top for shroud base width. I need to double check the height at the beam measurement station, but I think it makes the 275mm rule (though I can't find the change to 275 from 300 in the draft rule Phil). No fancy deck wedges at the shroud plates or anything. This boat is essentially Sock Puppet, but skinnier and with even less flare forward. It would be possible to make the boat skinnier yet and talking to a few people who were at Worlds this would certainly be tempting, though it might not be necessary given Phil Robinson's example.

Were I building I would have panels laser or waterjet cut from carbon/foam stock or plywood and tack them together somehow. I was not at Worlds but 21 Log Jump seems all the rage and I have to say Phil's torturing ply method seems to offer many of the same advantages in building a totally different shape that requires less reinforcement than a flat paneled boat would require. His method may be the best marriage of home buildability, low cost, and rounded hull shape.

On aesthetic grounds I am wedded to the notion of form following function, though I am a bit of a traditionalist. I do not particularly like the look of String Theory as a canoe, for instance, though the craftsmanship is jaw-dropping, and she is clearly fast. So in all my spare time, I would like to build something a bit more conventional in appearance and see where it stacks up against the Log Theories and Scarlet Mascaras of the future.

#44 Steve Clark

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:41 AM

Phil, the correct response to the first new IC to be started in Kiwi in more than 10 years is "THAT'S GREAT!"
AP, glad to see you make a start. I think 50 kg Lust Puppets will be good boats.
You should consider letting some stringers or battens into the mold to keep the ply straight. Takes a bit of care at this stage, but saves time down the road.
Both the Lust Puppets built in the US were built over bulkheads that stayed in the boats.
SHC

#45 gui

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 03:44 PM

I'm not convinced by the flat bow design, SP slams a lot uphill in a shop and doesn't feel fast at all. Maybe due to bad sailing or lack of rm (I'm 145lbs), dunno. However, in flat water, it's quite the weapon.
Karl was always quick with LP, so a skinny/lighter version should be a pretty good boat.

#46 Phil S

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 11:33 PM

Yes Steve, any new canoe is good news.
But since AP mentions my boat in his post I figured I should help him create a boat from this century not last century.
Even though Karl and Gui have good comments on the Puppets, I think all of us who sailed at McCrae appreciate that the performance of the best new boats especially String Theory have significantly raised the bar.
I also do not see any point building a boat the hard way when the Hollow Log way is so much easier, lighter and quicker still using the same materials. And he has not yet started cuting those materials.
AP , why not build one of each?

#47 atypicalguy

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:27 AM

Yes Steve, any new canoe is good news.
But since AP mentions my boat in his post I figured I should help him create a boat from this century not last century.
Even though Karl and Gui have good comments on the Puppets, I think all of us who sailed at McCrae appreciate that the performance of the best new boats especially String Theory have significantly raised the bar.
I also do not see any point building a boat the hard way when the Hollow Log way is so much easier, lighter and quicker still using the same materials. And he has not yet started cuting those materials.
AP , why not build one of each?


Stitch and glue is a very easy construction technique also, and really not so different from what Phil is describing, though his system has fewer seams and nice, rounded profiles which are attractive, strong, and ultimately should make a lighter boat. But AP you are off down the garden path so to speak, so kudos for that. Building something is far more important than building any specific design or method.

As for LP-like shapes and their potential, I guess we will have to wait until a good sailor builds one as a DC and sorts it out fully, and then see how it goes.

KW

#48 gui

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 05:06 PM

Yes Steve, any new canoe is good news.
But since AP mentions my boat in his post I figured I should help him create a boat from this century not last century.
Even though Karl and Gui have good comments on the Puppets, I think all of us who sailed at McCrae appreciate that the performance of the best new boats especially String Theory have significantly raised the bar.
I also do not see any point building a boat the hard way when the Hollow Log way is so much easier, lighter and quicker still using the same materials. And he has not yet started cuting those materials.
AP , why not build one of each?


Well, you're probably right. If I were to build a canoe, it would be based on Chris's boat/yours. I was impressed by what I saw in Ram Island, Chris would usually screw up his starts (noze dive or similar screwy stuff), but still catch up the front guys by the middle of the first beat.
I think the old farts (;p) complained about it not looking like a canoe ... But a bit of mind stiring is always good.
G.

#49 c maas

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 07:28 PM

Well, you're probably right. If I were to build a canoe, it would be based on Chris's boat/yours. I was impressed by what I saw in Ram Island, Chris would usually screw up his starts (noze dive or similar screwy stuff), but still catch up the front guys by the middle of the first beat.
I think the old farts (;p) complained about it not looking like a canoe ... But a bit of mind stiring is always good.
G.


The features that make String Theory un-traditional in a 1970's sense are relatively superficial. It would be easy to get an adequate shroud base without the winglets, the foredeck could (should?) be convex and the stern could be pintailed more. My next design is heading in that direction. Not for reasons of tradition but because I think it will be faster.

And thanks for bringing up my less than stellar performance at Ram Island! ;)

#50 ic blast

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 09:06 PM

Yes Steve, any new canoe is good news.
But since AP mentions my boat in his post I figured I should help him create a boat from this century not last century.
Even though Karl and Gui have good comments on the Puppets, I think all of us who sailed at McCrae appreciate that the performance of the best new boats especially String Theory have significantly raised the bar.
I also do not see any point building a boat the hard way when the Hollow Log way is so much easier, lighter and quicker still using the same materials. And he has not yet started cuting those materials.
AP , why not build one of each?


Based loosely on LP. The offsets were a starting point from which I've made a few changes.

I had been thinking about rig a bit when deciding on hull type and the limits of my building skills. One thing to keep it simple was to put a stayed rig on so needed some beam. It is quite close to the min at 760mm. I did flatten the chines out and take quite a bit of rocker out and am quite happy with how the shape looks at the mo. Before I start cutting I may take out some volume out of the bow.
The master plan is to start building boats "build them and they will come" the best method may be getting the 'logs' going; time and interest will tell.

Yes I'll need a bit more structure inside but I don't think it will be too heavy with the sheer height at the stern kept to a minimum and toying with the idea of foam panels inside.

Cheers

AP

#51 Phil S

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 11:42 PM

AP
Make sure you are working to the latest vesrion of the Development Rule. There were a few refinements made late last year and the latest version on which the IC association will vote shortly is on the IC Forum: http://www.intcanoe....topic.php?t=687
There are some small changes from the old version on the IC web site. eg Freeboard was reduced to fit the Nethercotts in and some clarifications about allowable plan form curves.

Have fun building and sailing the canoe. These new light boats are great value in terms of speed and satisfaction for the dollar.
Phil S

#52 rocknodster

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:55 AM

So which DC's were tubby or overcanvassed and what differences did it seem to make?
http://www.internati...20Measuring.pdf

#53 atypicalguy

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:24 AM

So can someone tell me why Phil Robin had all those DNCs on his scorecard? Looked like a structural issue from the scores but didn't want to presume.

#54 rocknodster

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:44 AM

So can someone tell me why Phil Robin had all those DNCs on his scorecard? Looked like a structural issue from the scores but didn't want to presume.


No structrals, he had just general stuff like a broken forestay.... Typical bad luck regatta, but the boat itself appeared strong and was very quick in the last heat of the Worlds

#55 IC youth movement

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 07:51 AM

Phil had standard new boat teething issues. Lashings chaffing through and the like, the kind of stuff you expect when the boats only had a couple of hours on the water. Definitely had speed though..

#56 TeamFugu

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:48 PM

FWIW there are a couple advantages to using foam for the bulkheads. The first is that they are easier to shape than using wood. And another that many don't think about is that if you hit something close to a bulkhead, the bulkhead will give a bit where wood will most likely cause the skin to shear at the joint between the bulkhead and the hull. Sure it is not good to hit things but having your 3mm ply tear is more of a deal breaker than a little dent and some crazing.

#57 Willy Clark

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 12:08 AM

Its about time I did this, So here is what I think:

The Worlds in itself was a blast and kudos to Christian for putting on a great regata. McCrae yach club is one of my favorite places on Earth, the competition was good and the RC was one of the best I have ever had.
I think Hayden, Oliver, Phil and Dad have all done a pretty good job of describing the different desighns so I will give a breif synopsis of my thoughts. I will try to focus more on how they feel when sailed and the various difficulty levels rather than the design because that is an area for more qualified people.
I was sailing Kaito, the third Josie ever built and is basically identical to Dad and Olivers boats. The boat was plenty fast and the major reason that I did not do better was lack of time in the boat. The lack of practice on my part made my boat handling and tactics suspect at times and also contributed to breakages which cost me at least two boats. My upwind speed was great. When I turn the boat down and start footing it goes like a bat out of hell. However, I had more trouble than Dad and Oliver in bringing the boat back up and as a result I really couldnt point with anyone. But again I think this my defficienceis as a sailor not as a builder. Down wind I was not fast and neither were Oliver or Dad so that actually might be a design flaw. however none of us have ever been fast downwind anyway so it's hard to say. The first thing I am going to do to this boat is put a gybing dagger board on it or maybe a flapper cuz I felt that made all the difference between Olivers boat and my own. I also would built the boat out of foam not nomex because the nomex does not fit the mold very well but I think is more trouble than it's worth.

My boat is every bit as fast as Dad's but he sailed a better regata and thus beat me...............again.

Oliver in Uncle Walter was quite fast. Like I said the difference I think was the gybing dagger board.

David in Alice, a wider and heavier desighn, was still quite fast, particularly upwind. I recommend that anyone who doubts their ability to sail a new rules boat consider something like alice. She is wider and therefor easier to sail but still perfectly competetive.

The first DC not in the family that I got a ride on was John Kells' "Mayhem." The boat is quiet and smooth and he really moves down reaches. Again the boat is not quite minimum beam so anyone with doubts should consider something like that. I particularly like his bow. When I feel that I deserve a new DC I will probably add rocker forward to make the bow slap less and add beam aft.

The next I sailed was Alastair Warren's "Monkey" which had a very different feel to it. I really did not get the greatest idea of how it or John's actually go because I sailed them before the breeze came up. However Alastair's deffinitely felt much more skiffish to me. In the puffs there were downwind I deffinitely felt the boat rear up on its' stern, pop the bow out, and take off. I have trouble giving an oppinion on Monkey, it is deffinitely fast, but it is so different from most of the others that it is hard to compare. I like the V bow though, i think skipping along the top of waves rather than diving through them has something to be said for it. It was also one of the easier boats to sail.

I was very excited to next jump into Phil Stevenson's "21st Century Hollow Log" primarily because he passed me downwind so many times during the regata. Basically if I did not beat him to every windward mark I would not see him again for the rest of the race. The boat hauls ass downwind. Its quite a funny feeling as you sit there with your feet on the gunnels thinking "well this is quite nice" and then look at you wake and realize how fast you are going. It really motors down reaches and I think Phil held his own upwind though there is definitely room for improvement there. The high free board aft did make it rather like balancing on a log however that is nothing that simple practice can't solve.

Unfortunately I was not able to sail Del Olsen's "Donkey" but it seemed pretty quick. I could beat him upwind but he was quick down wind. That could be due to our weight differential.
Rob Patterson was sailing "Wonk" and having sailed the boat before the worlds I do not think she is as difficult as everyone thinks. The bow will dive and she has a high aft deck which makes her unstable however practice I think is the solution here. Rob was skippering for the very first time and also was very new to canoes which explains his struggles. It also was not the best boat to learn on however the boat is fast and upwind I think the wavepeircer really helps.

Finally there is Chris Maas' "String Theorey." With the exception of "Cogito" this was far and away the coolest boat I have ever sailed. I can't remember the last time I had so much fun in a boat as I had sailing Chris.' The boat cuts right through the water as if it is not there (I joked with Chris that he could have put it on foils and I would not have noticed). It seems like it has the perfect amound of rocker forward and the wider stern gives it stability aft which is particularly nice in capsize recovery. Anyone who is not sold on the DC would be if they took Chris' boat for a sail in any kind of decent breeze. It was the best sail I have had in years and I really did not want to give the boat back.

Unfortunately I was not able to sail Phil Robin's boat. I would have liked to seeing as he was the only one to beat Chris in a race that Chris finished but I suppose I will have to wait for another time.

This is getting long so I will wrap it up with saying that to me the DC is the way of the future. The class is more excited than I can ever remember it being and the future finally looks bright. I came away from that regata feeling more positive than I ever have.

Hope you all share my sentiments

If you want my full worlds/DC reaction check the IC my article in the IC news letter coming soon

Thanks
Willy

#58 Willy Clark

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 12:30 PM

*Foam core instead of nomex core is what I meant to say about mine

Thanks

Willy

#59 John K

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 02:55 AM

First things first. A very big thank you to Christian Knott, Nicole and our host in McCrae. It was a great event!



Next, big congratulations to Hayden & Chris for doing so doing so well. Both showed up with well prepared boats and both sailed very smart races.



The biggest success of the whole week was the enthusiasm by all who attended to adopt the ďDCĒ rule as the new IC. I could not be happier. There was a sense of unity and agreement in the direction of the future within the class that was not evident in Bristol or from what I have heard, Weymouth. I am very much looking forward to once again owning an IC, and letting the whole name ďDevelopment CanoeĒ becoming a happy footnote in the history of the class.



For me, getting to McCrae was a victory in itís self. Construction started in mid April 2007, and Mayhem USA-244 was finished at the end of October just two days before getting packed into the container. The boat measured in, and made minimum weight. Better yet the boat handled as I had intended. The design criteria that I established for myself was as follows:



ē To have the hull wide enough at the chainplates to provide adequate support for the mast.

ē Relatively full ďUĒ sections forward to promote early planning on the forward sections.

ē Moderate beam in the stern sections to reduce the tendency to push the bow down and to reduce wetted surface area.

ē The stem is tall enough to keep the foredeck dry in most conditions.


ē A strong chine to shed water starting just forward of the chainplates.
ē Moderate rocker (100 mm), with maximum draft located at the daggerboard

ē To achieve minimum weight



First impressions are that the boat is fast, and has great potential. Unfortunately, I had my share of new boat issues, and I was late for two starts while making repairs on the beach, and I withdrew from one race after my Vang exploded during a jibe. Upwind, I was able to point high or go low & fast. I was deadly quick on reaches. I had designed the hull with the thought that I wanted to be able to push hard on the reaches & runs without stuffing the bow under. In all of the racing that we had, I only took water over the bow once.



I need to work out how to best rig the lowers on USA-244. Video shown after the racing revealed significant and undesirable side bend. My lowers were on to tight, and as they are connected to the same tackle as the uppers, I was not getting the desired tension on the uppers before maxing out the tension that I could pull on the lowers. Before seeing the video, I thought that the over bend wrinkles that I was seeing were the result of excessive fore & aft bend.



I had a chance to sail some of the other DCís, and while I liked some of the other designs, I am very happy with how USA-244 turned out, and I would not trade. Of course, I never had a chance to sail String TheoryÖ..



For any one who is interested, the lines & CAD file for laser cut frames for Mayhem are available (just pm me), The hull plug and other tools are available for use as well.



Regards



John

#60 ICU2

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:18 AM

I just had the pleasure of watching the DVD made by the McCrae Yacht Club members of the Worlds. Having sailed a few of the DC's for a very short time forming a view after the very short comparison test and then watching the dvd Im more confused about what to do than I was after the test sail.

Chris has a great package no doubt about that, however I feel that a different result could have been possible had some of the other DC sailors had some local knowledge for McCrae, as a number of bloody good DC's where taken far enough to the wrong side of the course at times that would amplify the advantage String Theory showed in many races. Also some blunders from Chris's opposition also gave him some breathing space at times or allowed places to be easily gained back.

Poor Wonk loved by few, feared by many is a fast boat just a bloody hard boat to come to grips with Rob did an awesome job with virtually no previous IC experience hats of to him for sticking it through to the end.

What is the best direction to try next? It a tough call, I still have strong memories of confindence in how hard Joise can be pushed, String Theory smooth as, Scalet O Hara while I didn't sail her had some early boat issue but looks to have huge potential from the DVD.

What do others think after watching the DVD?

H.

#61 rocknodster

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:52 AM

Similar thoughts, especially looking at the unedited races.
Steve dialled in the quickest off of most starts, but there were a lot of fast looking hulls! AUS25 - Rat looks surprising quick through the water, Wonk definitely looks fast, John K's boat visibly improves each race (flatter, height and speed look better). I'll work wih 239 (AUS26), as I reckon it's got a lot to offer, especially a light weight like me - but the more I look at Phil Robins boat in the last race the more I think that it could be the way forward.....

#62 JimC

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 10:43 AM

the more I look at Phil Robins boat in the last race the more I think that it could be the way forward.....

The thing about the Morrison boat (indeed all Morrison boats!) is that it has very low wetted area: sensationally so. However there was always a big question mark over the top speed of his designs. Things like the RS400 for instance are great in moderate winds but crap out with huge bow and stern waves when something like a Bethwaite shape would really be going for it. How this one looked I can't say.

#63 stinky

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 06:57 PM

any chance to get ahold of this dvd?

#64 rocknodster

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:03 PM

The thing about the Morrison boat (indeed all Morrison boats!) is that it has very low wetted area: sensationally so. However there was always a big question mark over the top speed of his designs. Things like the RS400 for instance are great in moderate winds but crap out with huge bow and stern waves when something like a Bethwaite shape would really be going for it. How this one looked I can't say.


Funnily enough, it's the way it moved through the large waves (and they were pretty big) in a fading wind that made me do a number of replays and decide that I like it.

#65 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 08:03 PM

any chance to get ahold of this dvd?


I believe if you PM Christian he can help get you lined up with one.

TC

#66 Willy Clark

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 09:41 PM

I just had the pleasure of watching the DVD made by the McCrae Yacht Club members of the Worlds. Having sailed a few of the DC's for a very short time forming a view after the very short comparison test and then watching the dvd Im more confused about what to do than I was after the test sail.

Chris has a great package no doubt about that, however I feel that a different result could have been possible had some of the other DC sailors had some local knowledge for McCrae, as a number of bloody good DC's where taken far enough to the wrong side of the course at times that would amplify the advantage String Theory showed in many races. Also some blunders from Chris's opposition also gave him some breathing space at times or allowed places to be easily gained back.

Poor Wonk loved by few, feared by many is a fast boat just a bloody hard boat to come to grips with Rob did an awesome job with virtually no previous IC experience hats of to him for sticking it through to the end.

What is the best direction to try next? It a tough call, I still have strong memories of confindence in how hard Joise can be pushed, String Theory smooth as, Scalet O Hara while I didn't sail her had some early boat issue but looks to have huge potential from the DVD.

What do others think after watching the DVD?

H.


I think the fact that Chris' boat was so good may have made a few people forget that he is blessed with an over abundance of natural talent. The fact is he had the fastest boat and sailed the best regata. No one is going to deny that many of us, myself included (probably myself in particular), were on the wrong side of the course enough times that it magnified Chris' margin of victory. However, having sailed the boat I am convinced that it is just plain better. I could bore you all with a lot of design terms but the simple truth is it just feels the best. Add that type of boat to the type of sailor who is always on the correct side of the course and the result is the 2008 McCrae worlds.

However, with that said, I must say that I have no idea what the best way forward is and am happy to stay that way. I think the last thing we want to do is all start copying Chris. The more different ideas we can put out there the better and I encourage people to innovate. Every DC sailed has potential only limited by the skills of the sailor and I expect that trend to continue.

Can't wait for my DVD
I think it would be good publicity if some clips were made available over the internet, Youtube perhaps?

Thanks

Willy

#67 rocknodster

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 09:50 PM

I think it would be good publicity if some clips were made available over the internet, Youtube perhaps?
Thanks

Willy


I'm working on it, it's Australia Day here so I'll be chock full of Lamingtons and Bundy Rum but there should be some of the un-edited stuff hitting You Tube Monday-ish.
Plus I'll have full details on the easies way to buy the full edited DVD off of McCrae

#68 rocknodster

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:01 PM

Request your copy of the Worlds DVD here:
http://www.internati....asp?Page=34555

#69 Steve Clark

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:44 PM

On the IC forum Chris tipped us that he had started working on a new design that would be a bit fuller up high in the bow and a bit skinnier down low in the stern.
In other words a bit more canoe-like.
I am thinking of removing some volume from the bow and wondering if I have too much spring aft.
In other words more like Chris' boat.
Funny how we move toward the middle.
I have done phase 1 noodling on the Hollow Log/ String Theory combination, and I think it can work.
I have just bought some .8mm plywood so the 1/4 scale model may be built tomorrow.
SHC

#70 stinky

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:26 AM

do you think that adding more volume higher is a better solution than moving to a wave piercing bow for a narrow entry bow?

'cause thats just cool.

#71 rocknodster

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:00 AM

Some teaser IC Porn:
http://au.youtube.co...h?v=d5J24pEuhmQ

#72 Harry Belafonte

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:04 PM

Some teaser IC Porn:
http://au.youtube.co...h?v=d5J24pEuhmQ


That's great!!! Thanks for putting this together!

TC

#73 Willy Clark

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:55 PM

Some teaser IC Porn:
http://au.youtube.co...h?v=d5J24pEuhmQ


that was really cool, thanks Christian. Love Rob's pitch pole.

Thanks

Willy

#74 Steve Clark

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 07:44 PM

do you think that adding more volume higher is a better solution than moving to a wave piercing bow for a narrow entry bow?

'cause thats just cool.

Lots of variables.
Too many to give a simple answer.
In general you want to minimize the energy lost in wave encounters,
Exactly how that happens is why we need to experiment with design.
SHC

#75 atypicalguy

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:03 PM

Lots of variables.
Too many to give a simple answer.
In general you want to minimize the energy lost in wave encounters,
Exactly how that happens is why we need to experiment with design.
SHC



More porn, of a historic nature:

http://au.youtube.co...h?v=90iN7TmTLIc

Not sure who put it together...

#76 Phil S

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:23 PM

Lots of variables.
Too many to give a simple answer.
In general you want to minimize the energy lost in wave encounters,
Exactly how that happens is why we need to experiment with design.
SHC

My perception of "Wave Piercing"
I never understood the reverse rake bows on the ACats. Evereyone calls them wave piercing but I see the only benefit is that weed goes up to the forestay not down to the fin.

What I think works as an efficient wave peircing bow is when the watelines get finer as the water gets higher. This occurs with the Flyer type A's because the bottom is wider than the deck. It also works like that with my Log for the same reason even with a vertical bow. It shows a couple of times in the video.

It did not work with Wonk (as spectacularly shown on the video) because the water was presented with a relativley wide flat deck at an angle which simply drove the bow down. String Theory has a tiny vertical bow, parallel waterlines but the deck is hollow with almost no presentation to the water, and so it passed through waves very well.

FWIW

#77 Willy Clark

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:00 PM

anyone else think the John Kell's boat looks really smooth as it goes through the water. Looks really really quiet.

Thanks

Willy

#78 Phil S

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:59 AM

John Kell was the big mover through the week. He startd out with new boat syndrone, fixing things and getting to know what to do with it, then by the last race he was up with Chris for at least one whole lap, as seen on the WC video. It felt slippery when I sailed it in more ways than one, I slipped all over it as easilly as it slipped through the water.

And he has offered the mold to any potential new canoe builders, see above.

#79 John K

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:58 AM

As smooth as USA-244 feels through the water, I was inpressed with how powered up Oliver was. Oliver was consistantly out at the end of the seat before any one else in the fleet. Could this be the work of the jybing board?

John K

USA-244

#80 JimC

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:38 PM

Could this be the work of the jybing board?

Its funny how these go in and out of fashion...

Assuming that the board is the majority of leeway resistence then you'd think that the only difference they would make would be to rotate the hull slightly so that instead of being at two degrees to the oncoming water (or whatever the leeway angle is) then the boat is rotated so the bow is whatever the angle of the gybe is down from that angle - ie dead on to the oncoming water if the gybe angle is equal to the leeway. Bethwaite has suggested that this could also mean that the rudder foil night be running directly in the track of the daggerboard, which might not be a good thing.

But the claims for gybing board performance this time round on a number of classes seem to be significantly greater than I can remember in the past, so perhaps there are other things going on. I'm bemused about the whole thing. It would be interesting to see some numbers of gybe angle, angle of attack on water board etc etc. Have folk got more informed opinion than my vague suppositions?

#81 gui

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:07 PM

As smooth as USA-244 feels through the water, I was inpressed with how powered up Oliver was. Oliver was consistantly out at the end of the seat before any one else in the fleet. Could this be the work of the jybing board?

John K

USA-244


John,
Stand up straight.


Look down.


Can you see your feet?
G.
:P

#82 Presuming Ed

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:28 PM

But the claims for gybing board performance this time round on a number of classes seem to be significantly greater than I can remember in the past, so perhaps there are other things going on.


IANANA, but the rig is also operating at a higher AoA when using a gybing board - do modern rigs benefit more from sailing slightly bow down compared to old fashioned rigs?

#83 Steve Clark

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:53 PM

Wonk's bow works really well until it doesn't.
The yellow boat (Willy Clark) that rounds just after Patterson goes doggy style is a Josie.
The only thing that stops him from blowing bubbles is the emergency dismount and muscle move on the seat.
The difference in volume forward of the mast is quite small.
Wonk's topsides in the bow are vertical from about 5" from the bottom of the stem back to the chain plates.
Josie's topsides are vertical for the entire 10" stem and then back to the chain plates.
Wonk has a bit more volume closer to the mast than Josie because of the distortion of the foredeck to accommodate the self tacker track.
As shown, both boats can be stuffed if you just drive the boat down around the weather mark. Chris Maas says he has to make sure his seat is all the way back before he heads down wind and that he has to "pick" his way down wind in big waves very carefully. thus his proposed ( a bit more in the bow, a bit less in the stern) modifications.
So all these boats can be sent ass over tea kettle, and I really think that you don't want to race a boat that doesn't require a bit of nursing around the top corner in heavy air.
SHC

#84 TeamFugu

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:55 PM

IANANA, but the rig is also operating at a higher AoA when using a gybing board - do modern rigs benefit more from sailing slightly bow down compared to old fashioned rigs?

I don't think it has as much to do with the rig than the hull shape. Many of the newer designs in dinghy sailing have finer bows. Putting the bow down gives a little more bite to reduce leeway and you get the flatter transoms out of the water reducing wetted surface. Some of the older designs are full forward so yo don't get as much of an advantage.

#85 c maas

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:06 PM

Its funny how these go in and out of fashion...

Assuming that the board is the majority of leeway resistence then you'd think that the only difference they would make would be to rotate the hull slightly so that instead of being at two degrees to the oncoming water (or whatever the leeway angle is) then the boat is rotated so the bow is whatever the angle of the gybe is down from that angle - ie dead on to the oncoming water if the gybe angle is equal to the leeway. Bethwaite has suggested that this could also mean that the rudder foil night be running directly in the track of the daggerboard, which might not be a good thing.

But the claims for gybing board performance this time round on a number of classes seem to be significantly greater than I can remember in the past, so perhaps there are other things going on. I'm bemused about the whole thing. It would be interesting to see some numbers of gybe angle, angle of attack on water board etc etc. Have folk got more informed opinion than my vague suppositions?



What makes me take the gybing board seriously is that both Oliver and Steve have very similar boats and rigs with the exception of Olivers foils.

Oliver was often able to climb away from me out of the start and he was still going fast. That's something Steve didn't do so often.

Erich's trailing edge flap board that Del Olsen used is intriguing mainly because Erich and Del are convinced it's fast. Also it's a fairly complicated gizmo and therefore irresistible to me.

It may be that the gybing board works on the flat skimmer type hulls but not the fine deep bows like mine. Pretty easy to test though.

#86 Phil S

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:47 PM

Steve,
In the video I round before Wonk and Willy and drive off on the reach without moving the carriage. The spray goes up near the gooseneck but the Log never looks like sniffing. Seconds later Wonk dives for it.

I have never dived the Log, although I think Oliver did last easter maybe once.

When I sailed Josie I barely got the bow in the water, the spring just seemed to lift it out. So I am not sure what Willy did wrong.


I do not hold much with the complication of gybing boards or flaps. My take is that Oliver climbed out on Steve in moderate air mostly because he is 25kg lighter. Its amazing how good sailors make new gizmos fashionable, but in most classes its often the same guys who were fast before the gizmos came along.

#87 Presuming Ed

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:26 PM

I don't think it has as much to do with the rig than the hull shape. Many of the newer designs in dinghy sailing have finer bows. Putting the bow down gives a little more bite to reduce leeway and you get the flatter transoms out of the water reducing wetted surface. Some of the older designs are full forward so yo don't get as much of an advantage.


I was obviously unclear. By "bow down", I meant sailing at the bottom of the groove - at a higher AoA. Not pinching up, but free. I wasn't trying to refer to longitudinal trim.

Interesting comments, though.

#88 Willy Clark

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:34 AM

Steve,
In the video I round before Wonk and Willy and drive off on the reach without moving the carriage. The spray goes up near the gooseneck but the Log never looks like sniffing. Seconds later Wonk dives for it.

I have never dived the Log, although I think Oliver did last easter maybe once.

When I sailed Josie I barely got the bow in the water, the spring just seemed to lift it out. So I am not sure what Willy did wrong.
I do not hold much with the complication of gybing boards or flaps. My take is that Oliver climbed out on Steve in moderate air mostly because he is 25kg lighter. Its amazing how good sailors make new gizmos fashionable, but in most classes its often the same guys who were fast before the gizmos came along.


Phil,
After pitchpoling a couple of times over the two weeks of sailing in McCrae I think I have developed a pretty good bear off technique. In that particular bear off I failed to execute two of the technique's key elements. First, it is crucial to bear off much more gradually than I did. Just putting the helm down doesn't cut it. Second, I didn't dump roach tension like I should have. On the Josie boats it is key to ease way way out while you bear off. It was real dumb of me considering I had just watched Paterson do exactly what I almost ended up doing.

As for the Log, I sailed it on a beam reach with the carraige all the way forward and it never gave the bow diving a second thought. Judging by how high and sharp your bow is I can't imagine it ever digging. And if it did, because the fordeck is so sharp I think it would just pop right back out. That's one of the reasons I like your hull shape so much. I know that if you do it correctly you shouldn't have to worry about digging Kaito's bow, but it would be nice not to have to think about it at all.

Best

Willy
PS I dont know how one spells "bear off"

#89 atypicalguy

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:44 AM

I do not hold much with the complication of gybing boards or flaps. My take is that Oliver climbed out on Steve in moderate air mostly because he is 25kg lighter. Its amazing how good sailors make new gizmos fashionable, but in most classes its often the same guys who were fast before the gizmos came along.


I'm with you Phil. After Anders took 2nd in the AC worlds on a board identical to Del Olsen's (after taking second in 2002 in Bristol), he commented that everyone attributed his success to the flapped board, and never asked him anything about his sails, or paid attention to where the board was in the boat, or asked him why he thought he was fast. So these gadgets take on a mythology of their own. Meanwhile, the fast guys continue to go fast, whatever they sail.

I don't think 2-3 degrees of leeway on a canoe hull generates (any?) significant drag. Perhaps there's something to the rig angle idea.

#90 IC youth movement

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:04 AM

The thought process behind my gybing board was a little different than whats been said already. Steve and mine rational behind it was that in the light stuff and off the line you need a big board, ala the Clark standard mold, but at top speed that board is too big driving us to reef the board which is a definite necessity in big air. From a foil efficiency stand point reefing is bad, you lose aspect ratio and the board becomes higher drag, really you want a smaller board that is just as deep. So we figured we would put in the small board we wanted at top speeds and for low speed gybe it thus operating the smaller foil at a higher angle of attack. So when the breeze built instead of reefing the board I just took out the gybe. That was the idea at least, whether that is actually what is going on I don't know.

What I do know is that this boat climbed to weather better than any other canoe I've sailed. I didn't realize what was going on until the end of the regatta but I had numerous moment on laylines where I thought I had understood and put the bow down sailing fast planning to do two tacks and before I knew what had happened I had climbed up to the mark. Also there was on instance where I had Del behind me and to weather and I just climbed up over him going out to to a corner. I always felt like I was in a bow down mode yet was always climbing on people. Now traditionally Steve has always been one to go low road but off a couple of starts he went low, Chris climbed off of him and then I was climbing off of Chris. So I am pretty sold that the thing is working.

Also worth mentioning that the foil I was using was similar in area to the butterknife blades Beaver was using around ten years ago, which he loved when alone in a clear lane but couldn't get climb off the line with. Another point is the section I was using was fairly agressive. I'l attempt to attach a couple of pics from right after they were pulled.

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#91 IC youth movement

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:07 AM

molds were the bottoms of some 505 blade molds built for the pegasus guys

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#92 JimC

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:18 AM

So we figured we would put in the small board we wanted at top speeds and for low speed gybe it thus operating the smaller foil at a higher angle of attack.

Fascinating...

When I had a una rig singlehander with too small a daggerboard the critical factor was stall. Angle of attack never really came into it at my level of boat handling. (We must remember that I'm a crew, and don't pretend to be as competent a helm as you guys. Maybe when I've had more practice. Neeed to finish the boat. I digress). As soon as I had enough speed I was fine, but there was a definite situation where if the wind dropped down to minimal I could feel the boat go soggy, and eventually it would just become impossible to sail on any kind of upwind track. Note that this was windspeeds that were probably below what one could sail on at almost any tidal venue... Where I'd notice it in more normal sailing was coming out of tacks. If I came out too slow or grabbed too much sail too quickly I'd stall the blade and was just dead. The only way out was to put the helm over and tack back. I can't help thinking that a jib would help prevent that situation though. But it all means I don't think of leeway as the critical factor for too small a board. But I could very easily be wrong!

I struggle with this because I can't help feeling that the board will get whatever angle of attack it needs in the hands of a skilled sailor as you whether its gybed or not. So I start thinking about secondary effects. And a sailboat going upwind is such a marginal thing that quite small effects can have big consequences... If I believe that the board gets whatever angle it needs and the boat just rotates round the board then its really quite interesting... The first is the angle of the hull through the water, and the second is relationship of jib to mainsail. The jib to mainsail relationship is perhap most interesting. It means that the jib is slightly more parallel than than with a non gybed board - ie as if the jib tack was off the centreline to leeward. If I'm right it means that the gybing board would be most effective on a high speed two sail boat, and least effective on a slow una rig. I wonder... Plenty of opportunity for some interesting two boat tuning within team Clark... especially if you can rig up a jib that can be set off the centreline... It doesn't have to tack for testing, maybe even more interesting if not...

#93 c maas

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:59 PM

I'm with you Phil. After Anders took 2nd in the AC worlds on a board identical to Del Olsen's (after taking second in 2002 in Bristol), he commented that everyone attributed his success to the flapped board, and never asked him anything about his sails, or paid attention to where the board was in the boat, or asked him why he thought he was fast. So these gadgets take on a mythology of their own. Meanwhile, the fast guys continue to go fast, whatever they sail.

I don't think 2-3 degrees of leeway on a canoe hull generates (any?) significant drag. Perhaps there's something to the rig angle idea.



All I'm saying is that there's some evidence that the gybing and flapped boards might work.

You would be hard pressed to find two Canoes closer in design or more ably sailed than Steve and Olivers. Oliver found he could climb on other boats. Maybe it's because he is lighter than Steve. Maybe it's because of his board. Maybe he pulls harder on his mainsheet.

Erich Chase, who is no slouch in the boat speed and tuning department, is convinced that his flap board worked.

I can understand if someone doesn't like the idea for philosophical reasons. Also it is another gadget and gadgets are distracting.

I'm not typicaly one to blindly follow fads but I see enough evidence to make me think that the gybing and flap boards are worth looking into.

#94 JimC

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 05:51 PM

especially if you can rig up a jib that can be set off the centreline...

What's really irritating, now I think of it, is that I have just replaced the foredeck on my boat and have a jib tack arrangement that precludes any such experimentation. An arrangement to enable you to offset jib tack and forestay to leeward whilst maintaining the appropriate luff tension would be quite an interesting challenge to engineer... So even if it is the sail effects perhaps a gybing board is an easier way to achieve it. Of course I've also just put the new plate case in in such a way that it precludes installing a gybing board without a lot of hacking. Sigh.

#95 atypicalguy

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 12:24 AM

All I'm saying is that there's some evidence that the gybing and flapped boards might work.

You would be hard pressed to find two Canoes closer in design or more ably sailed than Steve and Olivers. Oliver found he could climb on other boats. Maybe it's because he is lighter than Steve. Maybe it's because of his board. Maybe he pulls harder on his mainsheet.

Erich Chase, who is no slouch in the boat speed and tuning department, is convinced that his flap board worked.

I can understand if someone doesn't like the idea for philosophical reasons. Also it is another gadget and gadgets are distracting.

I'm not typicaly one to blindly follow fads but I see enough evidence to make me think that the gybing and flap boards are worth looking into.


I'm not saying they don't work. I'm just saying there's scant evidence that they do. Maybe everyone who's tried one in the past just never got it right, or had the right boat. But plenty of people have tried it, and it's hard to find a class where it has become standard issue outside 505s. Might be because only a handful of folks are geeky enough to try it - or skilled enough to get it to work. Or the effect is so small it's impossible to measure outside the top few in any fleet, or even there.

I do think the Butterknife route is correct - no point in playing the game unless you can reduce the wetted surface somehow. And I like the notion of a gybing board over a flap from a drag standpoint, though it would be interesting to compare in a tank. To me the theory makes sense as long as you have a smaller board down there, with either flap or gybe.

But taking a cold hard look for a moment, if flaps are so great, why did Steve come out on top of Erich and Anders in 2002? Did Oliver's climb away tendency beat Steve and his conventional board this time around? And why was Anders second to a non-flapped Robin Wood in 2005? We can go back and forth with anecdotes like this. All I know is that at the top level, there seems to be no clear cut trend in either direction. I'll defer to Oliver on his experiences with his boat, but again I know that he is very fast without the gadget, and he was 3rd in DCs after two non-flapped boats. So the tea leaves can be read in either direction here.

I'm pretty much out of my league in this discussion so I'll shut up now. My thoughts on the matter are heavily coloured by Bill's thoughts anyway - not much original analysis going on. Looking forward to trying some of these ideas on the course but will need to finish the Moth foil project first.

PS - Oliver is that a laminar flow NACA 63 section or an SD something or other?

#96 stinky

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 06:33 AM

I think the pegasus fellows might have done some comparative testing before the 1-14 worlds.

Trevor, are you out there?

#97 Steve Clark

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 07:28 PM

Stinky, I should have asked earlier, where are you located and how can I/we help you put a boat together?
On the gybing board front.
It may not make any difference to the speed of the boat. Because the blade is going to find the angle of attack it needs to resist the side force of the rig, and the drag on the hull probably doesn't matter. But you have to think of your course made good and the direction your boat has actually gone through the water as opposed to the direction it has been pointed. Simply stated, if you can cancel out a few degrees of leeway, has the same effect as pointing a few degrees higher than your opponents. On open water courses with a normal balance of shifts, this probably doesn't matter much and your VMG may be very similar. But put yourself in between two boats on the same tack and can be a very big deal. You should be able to hang in lanes because you will not be making the same amount of leeway as the other boats even if you are sailing the same compass heading. On many race courses this may not matter, but on others, where there is a preferred side of the course, your ability to hang in a lane is a very big deal. This may be why the I14s were so dedicated to it for 2006 and why it seems like an unnecessary complication many other places and time.
As for what section the board is, I don't know. It was designed by Harry Dunning, possibly using X-foil or one of the other foil design programs. We thought it would work on the IC because our upwind speed is slightly faster than the 5-0 and thus the Reynolds numbers would be almost identical.
SHC

#98 JimC

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 10:11 PM

It may not make any difference to the speed of the boat. Because the blade is going to find the angle of attack it needs to resist the side force of the rig, and the drag on the hull probably doesn't matter. But you have to think of your course made good and the direction your boat has actually gone through the water as opposed to the direction it has been pointed. Simply stated, if you can cancel out a few degrees of leeway, has the same effect as pointing a few degrees higher than your opponents.

I got lost in the middle there Steve... I agree the blade will find the angle of attack it needs, but I don't follow your deduction about the equivalence of pointing higher... Can you speak slower and use shorter words?

Let me run through my understanding, and let me know where I go wrong...

I think of what sailors traditionally called leeway as being just the angle of attack of the boat on the water... Its just a measurement of which way the hull is pointed relative to the track isn't it? Lets make up some numbers...

I have a boat with a una rig and a hideously inefficient gybable daggerboard that requires 5 degrees attack to the water on a course made good of 90 degrees true. If I lock the blade dead centre the hull will need to be aimed at 85 degrees to make good 90 degrees true, and I will see leeway of 5 degrees? Is that correct?

Now I gybe the board 5 degrees on the lift side. To make 90 degrees true my board still needs to be at 85 degrees to the water, but my hull is now at 90 dgrees, and I see no leeway. Oh and I let my rag out 5 degrees from where itwas because the sail still needs to be at the same angle relative to the wind, its angle relative to the hull being irrelevant.

So I think, hey, this is good, and gybe the board 10 degrees. Now in order to make my 90 degrees true the hull has to be pointing 95 degrees, and the boat is apparently climbing up to windward with negative leeway and the rag goes out another 5 degrees.

But in all cases my course made good is the same, my sail should be sheeted at the same angle to the wind, but at different angles to the boat, and if we assume the difference in hull drag to be neglible I'll be going at the same speed.

So far so good... Now I want to go upwind. Lets say that with my rig and foil I have a best vmg at 45 degrees to true wind, and I now need 8 degrees on the foil because we are going more slowly. So my foil wants to be at 37 degrees to true wind. And that's the case whether my board is neutral, making 8 degrees leeway, gybed 5 degrees, making 2 degrees leeway, or gybed 10 degrees making 2 degrees "windway" to coin a word... Again I have the sail at the same angle to the true wind, so it seems sheeted out 5 and 10 degrees more according to the gybe on the board, and all the way I'm sailing the same course at the same speed...

So it seems to me that the gybing foil can't actually affect angles between the true wind, the foil and the sail, just the hull. What have I missed? So I cannot see a gybing board making a difference on a single sail boat.

But given a two sail boat my ears suddenly prick up... Becase with a jib and a main both located on the centreline the angle of the hull relative to the wind suddenly gets very significant indeed... Our in aerodynamic terms canard wings relationship is changing significantly as the hull is rotated relative to the wind... As the board gybes the jib/main relationship changes. I'm struggling to explain this... here's a graphic with a very exaggerated gybe angle. Blue has the board centrelined, green is gybed. The true wind to sail angle is the same for both, but the width of the slot is very much greater for the gybed boat... It seems to me there are a lot of possibilities there...

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#99 k76

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 12:43 AM

Jim C,

You are almost right that the gybing angle only affects the angle of the hull. The little bit that you are missing is that this is the big deal. The hull is providing sideforce, and with that comes drag. For small angles of attack you actually get a useful sideforce at almost no drag penalty, but for larger angles of attack its shortcomings as a lifting surface become evident. So although you can theoretically gybe the board to give zero leeway of the hull you are just giving away your "free" lift. Gybing the board even further to "claw" your way up just means your hull is counteracting the board, its a fantasy that doesn't work.
What works is this:
Have your hull at the optimum angle. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but its more than zero degrees and less than the optimum angle of a non-gybing board. If you are trying to achieve the optimum angle of the hull with a conventional board you immediately run into a tradeoff of having to increase the size of the board, which gives you more drag from the board. A gybing board or a trim tab allows you to decouple this by providing more lift at small angles of attack with less overall drag. A secondary effect is that you are now free to chase the optimum loading on your foil for achieving laminar flow. It may even be the more important effect. So just gybing a big NACA00XX board may not give you much effect, but Oliver is making the right noises by using a smaller board with a good section. And then the rudder size and rig position comes into play as the sideforce is shared between the keel and the rudder. I don't think this is ever going to be a copy and paste excersize given the differences in our boats.
To sum up the gains to be had are: Less drag from hull, less leeway(never zero) and less drag from board.

#100 TalonF4U

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:15 AM

dude...I want a DC.




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