8731 replies to this topic

[Bob Perry]

Maybe as suggested we should move our ideas on this design project over to its own thread.

[Wess]

Some of us have different ideas of "classic."

Sleeps 4, one double, two singles which are good sea berths.
Sprit boat.
SA/loads that a woman (alone) can manage and reef.
Potential for 20 knots of boat speed under sail.
Draws less than 3 feet, board up.
Trailerable.
Minimal systems.
PRETTY.

Come on, you can do it. You know how. One up Ian. Better Chris. Show us something really cool. How about a classic M********

[Paps]

Well I would have to put in a vote for the Peterson 44, Savage build not the Taiwan job. Will have to hunt for some images.

[Bob Perry]

I think we need some limiting parameters.
What I had in mind was a boat that recreated the look of the FIDELIO on the other thread. Fixed keel, moderate draft, moderate displacement and the type of boat that is easy to sail. Cut out this 20 knot shit. This will be a beer and sandwhich kind of boat. But I'm not fixed in this. I'll go where the group want to go as long as it is one direction.

[jimbot]

I would like the bow and stern overhangs close to proportional. For some reason, a buff bow and a long counter look totally out of whack to my eye.

[Wess]

Cut out this 20 knot shit.

Sigh...

Sucks to be in the minority, but why do pretty and slow, when you could do pretty and fast??

There are lots of folks doing pretty/classic monhull yachts of all sizes these days.

Show me what you can do with a multi!

Channel Dick, Chris and Ian and draw a pretty fast multi.

Oh well, suspect that request is DOA.

[sailman]

Sigh...

Sucks to be in the minority, but why do pretty and slow, when you could do pretty and fast??

There are lots of folks doing pretty/classic monhull yachts of all sizes these days.

Show me what you can do with a multi!

Channel Dick, Chris and Ian and draw a pretty fast multi.

Oh well, suspect that request is DOA.

Slow as in beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You want fast? Go visit Gunboat they sponsor here for a reason.

[briartrtpd..]

My vote would be easy to sail by a husband and wife team, smaller headsail size? if we go tiller it would need to be steerable by SWMBO when its blowing 25 and we are reefing, rigid boom vang. It would be nice if we could have the area forward of the main hatch clear enough that a soft dodger could be fitted.

[sailman]

I think we need some limiting parameters.
What I had in mind was a boat that recreated the look of the FIDELIO on the other thread. Fixed keel, moderate draft, moderate displacement and the type of boat that is easy to sail. Cut out this 20 knot shit. This will be a beer and sandwhich kind of boat. But I'm not fixed in this. I'll go where the group want to go as long as it is one direction.

I think that with the differences in purpose you would also have to sort out would be general purpose of the boat, i.e. passage making or coastal cruising. For my tastes a sea berth intrudes on the function of the main salon as a place to relax with family and friends when the weather outside is not condusive to enjoy the cockpit. Which brings me to my next point, as it relates to the purpose of the boat (passage making or coastal cruising) should the cockpit be open and roomy or small for sea keeping?

Just a few thoughts.

Will Museler

[Schnick]

My boat would be like the pilothouse boat that is in Yacht design according to Perry, can't remember the name but it was custom fro some people in the San Juan islands. Except with the transom off of Avanti and a frac rig. I could deal with the canoe transom if that would satisfy the 'classic' requirement.

[B.J. Porter]

Well, we could also back into this from the RIGHT direction.

The FT10M and the original Anarchy 30 stuff came about in the quest for a fun, fast, AFFORDABLE boat.

How many afforable, fun, family cruisers are there on the market today? Everything you see in the New Boat features in the sailing rags starts at what, 40 feet and a quarter of a Mil plus (except the BeneHuntaLinas)?

How about looking for something a family of four can spend a week on without murdering each other, get to some fun places (specify a range maybe - X miles on an eight hour sailing day??) and be both comfortable and independent at anchor, for something like $100-$125K FOB. Spare but not spartan, comfortable but not plush.

Anyone with an unlimited budget can come up with the "SA Floating Fuck Palace 50", and anyone who thinks crapping in a cedar bucket and eating ravioli out of a can is a fun way to spend a weekend can come up with the "SA Turbo Cruiser 30." Let's think of something that real people that like to sail but don't race much might actually want to buy and spend time on.

[sailman]

My boat would be like the pilothouse boat that is in Yacht design according to Perry, can't remember the name but it was custom fro some people in the San Juan islands. Except with the transom off of Avanti and a frac rig. I could deal with the canoe transom if that would satisfy the 'classic' requirement.

or one of Bob's Valient sterns! But I don't see how you would work that into an overhang.

[Bob Perry]

I hate to interject my own priorities here but I really think that "Floating Fuck Palace 50" has a nice ring to it.
Now if we can just come up with a decent logo.

[jimbot]

My vote would be easy to sail by a husband and wife team, smaller headsail size? if we go tiller it would need to be steerable by SWMBO when its blowing 25 and we are reefing, rigid boom vang. It would be nice if we could have the area forward of the main hatch clear enough that a soft dodger could be fitted.

Skylights that you can raise.

[B.J. Porter]

I hate to interject my own priorities here but I really think that "Floating Fuck Palace 50" has a nice ring to it.
Now if we can just come up with a decent logo.

Good marketing is all about alliteration these days.

[CharlieCobra]

Skylights my ass, how about a butterfly hatch trimmed with mahogany?

[jimbot]

Skylights my ass, how about a butterfly hatch trimmed with mahogany?

I think that's what I'm talking about. V shaped, both sides can raise?

[Bob Perry]

It's got to have a transom with traditional rake.
I favor a big cockpit. I was thinking more in line with Briar.
Moderate displacement so we can get some volume and stablity.
I hate trying to marry conservative classic ends with a moden underbody. You get neither fish nor fowl
We go all out for good looks and comfort or we go all out for speed.
Go all out for speed and you get a Melges 32. "Get that chute up Mom!"
I think this boat is more like, "I might put the chute up. I'll have another beer and think about it."

[jimbot]

It's got to have a transom with traditional rake.
I favor a big cockpit. I was thinking more in line with Briar.
Moderate displacement so we can get some volume and stablity.
I hate trying to marry conservative classic ends with a moden underbody. You get neither fish nor fowl
We go all out for good looks and comfort or we go all out for speed.
Go all out for speed and you get a Melges 32. "Get that chute up Mom!"
I think this boat is more like, "I might put the chute up. I'll have another beer and think about it."

I was thinking classic 6 meter overhangs. Can't you get something like a soling underbody with that?

[Cruisin Loser]

For my tastes a sea berth intrudes on the function of the main salon as a place to relax with family and friends when the weather outside is not condusive to enjoy the cockpit. Which brings me to my next point, as it relates to the purpose of the boat (passage making or coastal cruising) should the cockpit be open and roomy or small for sea keeping?

Just a few thoughts.

Will Museler

I disagree on the seaberth. We have a dinette with a settee opposite and a pilot berth outboard the settee. We can have a gang around the table and when my son gets tired or bored with grownups he climbs into the pilot berth and reads or nods off. He can still chime in to the conversation when it suits him. On passage it's a sweet bunk with a leecloth. We love our pilot berth, most useful bunk on the boat, and it looks boaty.

I think you should be able to seat as many people in the cockpit as you can around the table down below, because everyone on board will either be in the cockpit when it's nice, or in the saloon when it's not. I like a bridgedeck at the forward end of the cockpit to help with the seaworthiness aspect, and to stiffen the deck structure. Makes it a little tougher to go below, but there are tradeoffs in everything.

[NoStrings]

If I wanted a classic look, I'd personally look towards those old S&S designs, like the 54' yawl, Kay. However, that kind of condems you to a life of slave labor, sanding, varnishing, and polishing. They're beautiful to look at, but my arms hurt thinking about it.

My personal choice would be a big Schumacher like Heart of Gold.

[R Booth]

I hate to interject my own priorities here but I really think that "Floating Fuck Palace 50" has a nice ring to it.
Now if we can just come up with a decent logo.

Give me a day...........

[Bob Perry]

CharlieCobra: can you post a pic of your boat?
That's kind of what I was thinking.
Under 40'.
Clasic and not Heart of Gol stylingthat's too contemporary.
Yes we can have a Soling underbody but that's hardly "modern".
6 Meter ends are kind of what I had in mind. Maybe a wee bit less.

No point using 50'er for comparison. Let's keep this boat reasonably affordable.
This boat has to be a finger in the eye to all the Beneteaus and such that are out there.

[vouz etes ici]

If I wanted a classic look, I'd personally look towards those old S&S designs, like the 54' yawl, Kay. However, that kind of condems you to a life of slave labor, sanding, varnishing, and polishing. They're beautiful to look at, but my arms hurt thinking about it.

My personal choice would be a big Schumacher like Heart of Gold.

Here's one, just launched... reviewed by Bob in a recent issue of Sailing Magazine.
Anna, based on the S&S design Stormy Weather
I'm in love!!!



Here's Bob's review: http://sailingmagazi...perry_anna.html

[NoStrings]

It's gorgeous, but I'd want it with a modern underbody, like Glenn Isaacson's "Q". Sorry Bob, just because it's a cruiser doesn't mean it has to be slow.

[chessiebaysailor]

I like 38' LOD as a start, so as to not preclude a bowsprit. Also, vote for low cabin here and reasonably wide side decks. I love butterfly hatches if one could work. Room for an 8' dinghy in chocks. I don't really like flush decks until they get a bit longer. Aft cockpit. Don't get greedy w/ the overhangs. This isn't for cheating a rule.

I would also vote to consider a split rig, ketch, yawl or even schooner. I like a lot of LF Herreshoff's ketches. Also, a split rig could let you fly a reasonable amount of off-wind canvas and not have any one piece be too big to easily hoist. I like to be able to jump my main at the mast 99% of the way up just hand over hand. Keep the required winches smaller that way also. Use some current carbon tech to reduce weight aloft, maybe even freestanding mizzen. And include rigging for a mizzen staysail...just for fun.

Reduce weight above waterline so you could consider a fairly shallow draft keel/centerboard. There's something to be said for getting into those little creeks and still have the stability to challenge the big blue.

Use cored construction in the interior to save weight. No marble/corian counters. Raised panel details, some variant on the trad white interior. One head by an offset companionway w/ wet locker. One double, rest of bunks singles.

Just my thoughts.
[moved from other thread]

[pogen]

Linky to previous thread, por favor? And oh, this type of discussion is not super-useful without a target price point/budget also. Sure Jakatan makes me go all sweaty and light-headed, but I am sure she is out of my price range.

In an earlier thread Mr. Perry said he likes to draw bunks to 81", let me put that request in as well. And bulwarks. Maybe the Morgan 382 as a taking-off point? Ok to keep the traveler and main in the cockpit for better sail shape and sail control? A foredeck with features (cleats, tiedowns) to accomodate a dinghy (maybe nesting, maybe a custom design)? A forepeak that doesn't even TRY to be a double berth, but is optimized for storage/utility? Use some of the space for a proper standup shower in the head?

David

[Bob Perry]

Now come on NO STRINGS. You are lecturing Bob Perry that "Just because it's a cruiser doesn't mean it has to be slow"!
There must be a long echo around here. I think that's what I said 30 years ago plus. You hurt my feelings. Really do you not think I would do everything possible to make the boat as fast as possible GIVEN THE FINAL PARAMETERS?!

We'll beat on this until we beat it into shape and the final shape will be a fast shape.

[Hiracer]

I'm confused. Who is using this boat? Where? And how?

Personally, I think we should design something for a family of four to have fun in the San Juan/Gulf Islands with a dream trip of Mom and Dad sailing to Mexico/Alaska someday.

Getting ahead of myself, are you gonna be putting roller furling on this classic?

If not, better make her fractional rigged. Otherwise, I need convincing eitherway.

I want the head in back, not front.

And I want storage, not party room.

Is this a fiberglass boat? Cored hull or solid? Lead exterior I assume. At least give me a sump for the water to collect.

But first we need to decide, who, where, and how.

[NoStrings]

Oh Christ, now I'm going to have to send Perry a bottle of single malt to help him recover from the insult.

[CharlieCobra]

CharlieCobra: can you post a pic of your boat?
That's kind of what I was thinking.
Under 40'.
Clasic and not Heart of Gol stylingthat's too contemporary.
Yes we can have a Soling underbody but that's hardly "modern".
6 Meter ends are kind of what I had in mind. Maybe a wee bit less.

No point using 50'er for comparison. Let's keep this boat reasonably affordable.
This boat has to be a finger in the eye to all the Beneteaus and such that are out there.

Sure. She's 35' LOD and 39'4" LOA with the sprit and boomkin and 14,000#'s with a cut-away forefoot full keel. With the glass sheathing, all the wood I have to worry about are the house sides, cockpit sides, masts, hatches and the gunwale board. I just scrub the teak cockpit seats and sole with saltwater and leave it be. Of course I'd expect a more modern keel arrangement on this boat.





I don't have one online of the stern quarter but it's gorgeous, like that boat on the other thread. Oh Joy was adapted from S&S design # 539 by Knutson and stretched from 33' to 35'. The sprit, boomkin, staysail and forestay (not headstay) was added later. She was originally frac rigged but the new forestay was made as a masthead stay and the original forestay became the staysail (babystay). They did a helluva job on her.

[nwsailboat]

Bob,
My thought was a 40' Flying Tiger with all furling, genny, boom, and Assm Spin or Code 0, 3 cabin, 1 head. Flying Tiger minimalist interior, owner upgrades after delivery. Think FT relative cost comparison, keep it low. FOB anywhere with sails and engine, enough to sail away, but not all the bells and whistles.
NWS

[NoStrings]

Ok, here it is:

I like the classic lines of Anna with a bit of the Terminator thrown in:

Room for 4. Full beam owners cabin.
One head with stand alone shower/wetlocker near the companionway.
Salon with convertible sea berths when on passages. (I happen to love my pilot berths, but I give up the possibility of an entertainment center.
Anchor locker with a below deck windlass.
Low profile cabin top and wide side decks.
Galley with 2 sinks, stove/oven combo, reefer/freezer combo. Sinks on centerline.

No overlapping headsails.
Masthead asyms on a retractable sprit.
In boom furling for the fully battened, high roach main.

Modern keel that isn't a hypercritical foil shape. IOW, I don't want it stalling out if the boat isn't perfectly trimmed.
Nice deep elliptical rudder.

Carbon fiber double swept back spreader rig. No runners.

Water jets built into the sides of the cockpit well so that I can turn it into a salt water jacuzzi. (ok, maybe that's going a bit too far).

[Whisper]

Give me a day...........

Shit, you beat me to it! I was catching up on the thread, and intended to respond to Bob with, "Let's put Booth in charge of that!"

[nrs]

I don't think there is enough of a market for a hardcore bluewater cruiser. But a solid, simple coastal cruiser that is actually beautiful- if the price is right, I don't see why it wouldn't succeed. Either way, I love this thread already...

Small headsail, large main - yes. Must be easy to sail in a wide range of conditions by few/undersized people. Wide side decks- beautiful and practical. Mahogany butterfly hatches- yes! How about varnished rubrails, hatches, and a teak grate cockpit floor?

Is a full or cutaway keel with a skeg hung rudder out of the question? It might be reassuring in the event of touching bottom, say, while trying to enter places like Morro Bay. Maybe this boat is about a comfortable, safe, leisurely cruise up the California coast, turning heads in every marina you visit.

But an important question. How big? For $125k, I can't imagine that a boat of the caliber I feel we're discussing can be built over ~30 feet. But I may be biased. I like small boats. Forty feet is a lot of boat. Maybe too much. But I suppose it depends on the market you want to reach.

[Bob Perry]

No Strings:
No. My feeling were really hurt. You better make that two bottles.

Actually I was thinking about 38' LOA and with reasonable overhangs and a relatively narrow stern we'd end up with the interior of a 28' Beneteau. That can't be too expensive to build.

Got to go take a swim. I went to a church supply store and bought one of those trays they use for communion. I fill each of the mini glasses with Scotch and line them up at the end of the pool. After each lap I get a mini shot. It keeps me motivated. I swim religiously.

Rick: where's that logo?

[sailman]

I was thinking classic 6 meter overhangs. Can't you get something like a soling underbody with that?

Something along the lines of my Brother's old 6M US51, which is being refurbished for the '08 6M Worlds. A Rhodes design that is quite possibly the smoothest helm I have ever driven.

Will Museler

[Occams Razor]

Dump the traveler. Give it a real vang, and if you think you have to center the thing give it a bridle. There - just saved $1000.

[nrs]

Wheel or tiller?

[FDer]

I know it adds cost but, please have a retractable keel there is nothing better than putting your bow up on the beach and watch everyone else struggle with their tenders and for what ever my thought are worth I like verticly retracting blubs and stern hung rudders.

[CharlieCobra]

The traveller on Oh Joy is just a bronze track with no blocks for control. Only the sliding car for sheeting.

[FDer]

Wheel or tiller?

Tiller

[Ishmael]

I know it adds cost but, please have a retractable keel there is nothing better than putting your bow up on the beach and watch everyone else struggle with their tenders and for what ever my thought are worth I like verticly retracting blubs and stern hung rudders.

There's a good idea...let's put a 38er up on the beach in the Gulf Islands. Only 12 feet of tide, no problem.

[U20guy2]

I agree on the outside -back of sete pilot berth thing. Just a great out of the way spot for people to crash out. They won't get stepped on while people are rumaging around in the morning. It works well when on the move and a nice lee cloth will hold lots of tossed sail bags etc off the cabin floor. -- On the other hand it does cut in to the fancy cabinet storage space thing. But you could have tidy cabinets under the seating accessable without lifting the seats up?

Entertainment center - equipment is getting pretty small these days - flat screen on the bulkhead a small DVD player stashed some place slick no big deal.

Go old school smallish but functional head located forward of the main bulkhead vs gigantic waste of space head - then have the aft storage locker thats plenty big for all sorts of things that tend to come with a family of 4.

Nice aft quarter berth type cabin behind the galley. I've always liked the bunk bed thing in a tidy cabin off to the side with either a pipe rack vberth bunk option or additional crap storage - sails - avon- lines etc at the pointy end.

So you have say one pilot berth - aft cabin - tight bunkroom for two - and optional addtional or time out space for the rowdy kid in a temp pipe berth up front. Guessing that won't fit in a 38footer with pointy ends. I've been on a 63footer with pointy ends and the interior is about as big as a 30ft bendytoy.

[Bob Perry]

Swimming invigorates me.

Tiller Yes.
Trav no.
Rigid vang yes.
No retractable keel. It's too expensive and rips up the interior.
Maybe a shoal draft abortion that cuts the balls off the boat.

I say not an inch less than 6' draft.
12' high tide last night.
We don't need no stinkin' entertainment center!
It'll be entertaining enough just getting there.
Drop the hook, a couple glasses of whatever. Take the dog ashore. Dinner, A couple more glasses of whatever and Boom! That's entertainment.

My vote counts no more than anyone else's.
I'm going to set time aside over the weekend to draw something to get us started.
Come on Tad, jump on in here and draw something.

[FDer]

There's a good idea...let's put a 38er up on the beach in the Gulf Islands. Only 12 feet of tide, no problem.

Assumming you do not put the boat on a rock it should be fine this would not be an all out light racer.
Though it would kill the interior, as has been metioned.

[Bob Perry]

I've got an idea.
Kiss off that overhang aft, take the transom down to the DWL and hang a nice big, semi balanced outboard rudder off it.
We'll pick uo 3' of DWL and make the rudder cheaper to install. Tiller thru transom. It worked for Laurent Giles.

[Bob Perry]

Container?
You are killing me.
Why cripple the boat for something it will do once in it's entire life? Get shipped.

[Ishmael]

Yes, I agree on 6' of draft, you could have 12 feet of draft here and it wouldn't be a problem, but Chesapeake Bay might not work. I dunno about the no-overhang transom with outboard rudder, just on a classic looks basis.

I'll kick off the logo contest with this entry:





Of course, may have to scale it down to fit a less-raunchy 38.

[slap]

Put the jib furler below the deck.
Small headsails.
Fractional rig.
Slab reefing.
Head aft, with wetlocker.
Tiller. (If it *must* have a wheel, make it big).
U or L shaped galley.
White interior w/ wood trim.

If the boat is proportioned right (ie, narrow transom), have a yawl option.

[Bob Perry]

I was thinking Herreshoff 28 style transom, a little hook to the bow profile to bring the volume down closer the DWL.
I'm actually thinking of a boat I have never seen before.

[FDer]

I see 2 ways to do a stern hung rudder, Folkboat style or Melges style, I like them both as you can see to work on the rudder, I like the Melges style better, but I was born in 92 what do you expect?

[newguy]

I like the traditional boats in this thread as a "dream boat" but not as a boat I'd really
like to own or use.

For me I'd want a coastal cruiser easily handled by two. Big enough for four. Husband,
wife, two kids. Simple is better (one head, minimum thru hulls). Shower. Easy to maintain
so no wood on deck (!) No big overlapping headsails (115 - 120% max). I hate sprits but
want something for downwind work.

Cabin: lots of storage, rounded corners some nice wood. Cozy, not a living room. At least
one good sea berth. A hanging locker near the companion way. Good ventilation, ports that
open with screens.

I want so swim off the boat when anchored so I want a way to get back in the boat on my
own. A boarding ladder isn't nearly good enough. A shower off the back of the boat is a big
plus as is a way to keep sand from coming on board after going ashore with the dinghy. Both
of those requirements speak to a swim platform or perhaps rear opening cockpit.

A place to put a dinghy, room for some solar panels. A hard dodger or someplace to be
on watch but somewhat out of the elements (it's a cruiser!). Slab reefing on main and I
guess a roller furling jib. A wheel to maximize cockpit space. A traveller that won't hurt
anyone (on top of the dodger??)

A pretty boat with a nice shearline. I like the Schumacher designs and some of the designs
I've seen by I believe Schooner Creek.

-ng

or was this thread meant to be the "I'm retired now and like sanding" or "I've got enough money
to hire help", varnished wood and bronze fittings thread?

[sailman]

I've got an idea.
Kiss off that overhang aft, take the transom down to the DWL and hang a nice big, semi balanced outboard rudder off it.
We'll pick uo 3' of DWL and make the rudder cheaper to install. Tiller thru transom. It worked for Laurent Giles.

I like where you are going. Definately the tiller, but a semi balanced rudder for ease of helm.

I am thinking something along the lines of a cockpit of around 13-14 feet.

Draft of 6-8 feet so that you can really work posibilities for the interior.

SCREW the entertainment center!
A stereo is the highest entertainment technology a proper yacht should have on board.

Will Museler

[Ishmael]

I was thinking Herreshoff 28 style transom, a little hook to the bow profile to bring the volume down closer the DWL.
I'm actually thinking of a boat I have never seen before.

Well, you can do a lot worse than Herreschoff. Used to see Bent Jespersen sailing his H28 around here. Very pretty boat. That's not even close to a semi-balanced rudder, however that nice bow is eye candy.

[FDer]

self tacking jib?

[CharlieCobra]

I get by with 5'6" and 5360#'s of external lead and 800 sq ft of sail just fine.

[FDer]

Well, you can do a lot worse than Herreschoff. Used to see Bent Jespersen sailing his H28 around here. Very pretty boat. That's not even close to a semi-balanced rudder, however that nice bow is eye candy.

Mmmmmmm.....
Boat porn, if that drawing stopped at the waterline I could be in love.

[Kris Cringle]

I like the ideas. I still say, start with the boat itself, what looks and feels right on deck. Let whatever can fit fall inside after.


Here's another innovative style, from, 1937. This boat is so old, they don't even know who built it. Not to everyones taste but it's hard not to walk toward it when it's on the dock. That's my dog I used for scale in the shot.

 Viking_O_water2.jpg   196.25K   224 downloads


Formerly WHITE TAIL, VIKING O is a 40-foot keel ketch designed by Bothen and created by an unknown builder in Sweden in 1937. She was substantially rebuilt by the Arundel Shipyard in Kennebunk, Maine, and is a handsome and somewhat modern design for her time. Some of these forward-thinking details are air foil shaped spars and art deco wings carved into her hull planking. The current owner enjoys the boat so much that this is the third time he has owned it! Rockport Marine replaced the engine and fuel tanks in 2007.

[Bob Perry]

No self tacking jib. If the overlap is minimal you should be able to sheet is easily without it being self tacking. If you can't then warm up that golf cart. Self tacking is too limiting on sheeting angle adjustments. Trust me.

No, not the actual H 28 rudder. Just that general type of look with a far more modern hull, and 38'. In fact a totally different boat but with that style of rudder on the transom.
Fd'er. You are totally right. That's a great boat above the DWL. Now let's stretch it out and fix the hull.

14' of cockpit? I'll take some of that when you are done.
Can't see that happening on a 38'er with cruising interior. Maybe we can try for 10'. I love big cockpits but there are some here that will rather trade for accomodations.
Maybe we should go down to 36'.
I like 36'.
I'm with Kris on LOA. Lets draw a boat and then see what we can fit inside it.

[briartrtpd..]

Well, you can do a lot worse than Herreschoff. Used to see Bent Jespersen sailing his H28 around here. Very pretty boat. That's not even close to a semi-balanced rudder, however that nice bow is eye candy.

The H28 a great boat but I guess it shows the issues of the smaller classic style "no headroom" how much cabin height are we willing to trade for our classic lines. I'm about 5'8" but I certainly don't want a pop top for you lofty's

[Whisper]

Go old school smallish but functional head located forward of the main bulkhead vs gigantic waste of space head - then have the aft storage locker thats plenty big for all sorts of things that tend to come with a family of 4.

Don't go too small on the head, I'm 6'3" with long legs, long arms, and broad shoulders. Many heads are too small for me to bend over and pull up my pants unless the door is open! And no, I don't use a wide stance.

[FDer]

No self tacking jib. If the overlap is minimal you should be able to sheet is easily without it being self tacking. If you can't then warm up that golf cart. Self tacking is too limiting on sheeting angle adjustments. Trust me.

No, not the actual H 28 rudder. Just that general type of look with a far more modern hull, and 38'. In fact a totally different boat but with that style of rudder on the transom.
Fd'er. You are totally right. That's a great boat above the DWL. Now let's stretch it out and fix the hull.

14' of cockpit? I'll take some of that when you are done.
Can't see that happening on a 38'er with cruising interior. Maybe we can try for 10'. I love big cockpits but there are some here that will rather trade for accomodations.
Maybe we should go down to 36'.
I like 36'.

I seems that with a very slightly high cut clue you could ajust the lead angle with a vertical movement much like on an FD and how many cruisers really change the lead angle?
Edit: with a good size clue board it could be deck sweeping or maybe a vertical batten on the foot?

[chester]

No self tacking jib. If the overlap is minimal you should be able to sheet is easily without it being self tacking. If you can't then warm up that golf cart. Self tacking is too limiting on sheeting angle adjustments. Trust me.

Bob, does the Hoyt jib boom work as advertised? Is it really an advance in using the jib at deeper angles and does it trim well on the wind?

[NoStrings]

If it's a cruiser, sail the damn thing or ship it to her first owner. Otherwise, hell with the container idea. I don't want a minimum beam cruiser.

[nrs]

I've got an idea.
Kiss off that overhang aft, take the transom down to the DWL and hang a nice big, semi balanced outboard rudder off it.
We'll pick uo 3' of DWL and make the rudder cheaper to install. Tiller thru transom. It worked for Laurent Giles.

Noooooooo

[NoStrings]

I'm not a huge fan of stern hung rudders on a cut off transom. It just bothers my eye.

[nrs]

Now I'm curious to see what Bob is picturing. Who knows, although I don't like outboard rudders in general for looks in spite of their practicality, maybe I'll like the result. If it's going to be an outboard rudder, there shouldn't be any bow overhang either. Balances the hull profile and maximizes the waterline. That's appealing in its own right. But I think that straight lines should go with straight lines. With that kind of hull profile I don't know that there are too many things you could do with the sheer and cabin that wouldn't make the boat look kitschy.

[Bob Perry]

Chester: that Hoyt boom works remarkably well. Butn we'd have to pay Gary to use it.

FD you are correct. A big clew board with a series of cringles will work to give the adjustment you need but some cruisers dont even want to trim the jib let alone adjust the sheeting angle. If it's blowing 20 and you want bear off 50 degrees I don't think changing the clew board atachment is really practical for a lot of sailors.

[sam_crocker]

Here's an outboard rudder done by our buddy knud reimers. Improve on it if you can, Bob.

Attached Files

•  stern.jpg   30.45K   88 downloads

[sailordiver]

Bob, does the Hoyt jib boom work as advertised? Is it really an advance in using the jib at deeper angles and does it trim well on the wind?

I thought this thing was supposed to be classic looking and pretty. Hoyt jib booms are so fugly. Probably expensive as well.

[MR.CLEAN]

Chester: that Hoyt boom works remarkably well.

I dunno if the boom on an Island Packet is substantially different than the Hoyt one, but if it ain't, I don't agree with this.

[sailordiver]

No self tacking jib. If the overlap is minimal you should be able to sheet is easily without it being self tacking. If you can't then warm up that golf cart. Self tacking is too limiting on sheeting angle adjustments. Trust me.

Second Bob's opinion on the self tacker. Useless things unless you tack up and down a really long narrow waterway to get to the sea. Had one on my Saga... cut the ends off and put tracks on the house... what a difference!

[sailordiver]

I seems that with a very slightly high cut clue you could ajust the lead angle with a vertical movement much like on an FD and how many cruisers really change the lead angle?

Who doesn't like to trim the sail properly? That's why we're sailors and not stink potters... the charm of the wind collaborating with an ephemeral foil... physics at its best... joy.

[sailordiver]

Bob,
What about using "Orphan" as a starting point? I remember it as a beautiful boat with plenty of old world charm and many of the attributes requested by the co-designers.

[Greyhawk (pka Catamount)]

the charm of the wind collaborating with an ephemeral foil... physics at its best... joy.

Are you sure you're in the right thread?

[Wayne]

Bob,

Didn't you already draw this boat???

Pacific Seacraft 38 or the saga 409 Perfect.

Plumb up the bow on the PS 38 a little maybe. Put your Saga double headsail rig on her.

Watertight bulkhead/chain locker forward if possible.

Maybe a partially protected rudder like the Hallberg Rassy.

Morris all white interior with just a little wood trim. I am sick of the black stains when moisture meets wood. Doesn't need to be a palace, just clean and simple.

Garage aft like the Outbound.

One double and two real sea births.

Mainsheet and jibs controlled from the helm.

Life raft storage in stern.

Decent stainless hatches.

Small sprit for ground tackle.

Inner stay for storm staysail.

Strong enough to go to anywhere.

Morris low bulwarks for a little extra security.

No Strings:
No. My feeling were really hurt. You better make that two bottles.

Actually I was thinking about 38' LOA and with reasonable overhangs and a relatively narrow stern we'd end up with the interior of a 28' Beneteau. That can't be too expensive to build.

Got to go take a swim. I went to a church supply store and bought one of those trays they use for communion. I fill each of the mini glasses with Scotch and line them up at the end of the pool. After each lap I get a mini shot. It keeps me motivated. I swim religiously.

Rick: where's that logo?

[FDer]

Who doesn't like to trim the sail properly? That's why we're sailors and not stink potters... the charm of the wind collaborating with an ephemeral foil... physics at its best... joy.

I normally on the pointy end (on or of the course) and I do not move the lead unless I am racing and if I am going foward I would rather set a reacher, the Solent? rig seems to do this very well.

[FDer]

On a different front, how hard would it be to make such a boat have positve floation.

[Sharpend]

I like the long overhangs and narrow lines with modern foils attached. A lot like the Spirit boats out of the UK (Think Casino Royale). Classic lines, good performance and handle very well on all points of sail.

Simple sail controls (fully battened main, slab reefing and non-overlapping headsails. Predominantly clean deck lines with low profile coach house (think Wally/Herreschoff).

[svgreatwhite]

I am thinking something like a scaled down Night Runner. Thin down the beam some. Maybe pinch in the transom. Keep the underbody modern. Little more overhang. Simple interior. Lose the sprit. Keep the traditional look above the water.

Quitting time at work, I will think some more when I get home.

[chinesegybe]

Been thinking on this Topic for a long time.........(trying to make the money to make it reality)

35-40 feet (Ease of handling, cost, ongoings i.e. Morrings maintenance etc)
Light displacement = faster, = ease of handling etc
Strong as a brick shithouse (sounds the contra to a light displacement boat) but I don't want anything breaking when it hits the fan.
Able to be shorthanded, e.g. for myself, that would be singlehanded.
Comfortable which doesn't equate to having every mod con under the sun, for most it means dry, spacious, lots of storage.

As for modern classics, look no further than Spirit Yachts out of the UK.

[Mark]

Sort of a modern Cal 40 then Bob?

[hobot]

I am thinking something like a scaled down Night Runner. Thin down the beam some. Maybe pinch in the transom. Keep the underbody modern. Little more overhang. Simple interior. Lose the sprit. Keep the traditional look above the water.

Quitting time at work, I will think some more when I get home.

Wasn't there a sister ship called "Eclipse", dark blue hull, no sprit, used to sit on K-dock before the remodel at Shilshoe?

[olaf hart]

I've got an idea.
Kiss off that overhang aft, take the transom down to the DWL and hang a nice big, semi balanced outboard rudder off it.
We'll pick uo 3' of DWL and make the rudder cheaper to install. Tiller thru transom. It worked for Laurent Giles.

Big Folkboat?

[Floundered]

My current shopping list, which has yet to be satisfied:
- sleeps 7 (one of which is 6'6")
- 36' LOA
- max 6' draft
- decent initial stability (ultimate stability not likely to be challenged where this boat will be going)
- relatively gentle on 4' seas. No slamming hull.
- set up for single handing in a pinch
- gennaker
- very low maintenance (varnish was only fun the first year)
- galley good for a week or two
- comfy & ventilated inside during foul weather
- lots of natural light below
- easy way to get in the dinghy
- easy access to electrical, plumbing, engine
- plenty of storage
- foredeck good for lounging
- cleats in the right places
- pushbutton anchor drop & hoist, self-stowing
- wash-down pump & hose recessed in foredeck
- costs less than 1/4 of my middle-class suburban house in the Pacific NW
- beer yes, racing no (not officially anyway).

[olaf hart]

It would be good to have a decent hard dinghy which rows well, and a place to keep it and launch it.
Good ground tackle so we can stay out of marinas.
A keel and rudder which can bounce into and over rocks and coral heads.
A propellor shaft, no sail drives.
About twice as much engine and prop as we think we need, can always go to feathering prop if needed.
Inner forestay,removable if need be.
Drying legs and stable on the hard.
Slab reefing.
I'm OK with the sloping transom and outboard rudder, simpler and more waterline length.

[gunkholio]

Lot of stuff about the boat, but who's sailing this thing?

Who are they? Who's the persona? What's their use mode? What kind of experience are they seeking? What's the self-image that they want to project? Where do they live? How much do they want to pay? Are they young or old? Kids in tow? Empty nest? First boat? Last boat? Somewhere in between?

What's the sailing profile? One day at a time with the usual suspects? The honey and me weekender? The beercan with the best of friends? Or any combination of the above?

I'm not the customer for this project. I'm not the persona you want to study... At least not right now. But when I forecast 12 years out, when it's just she and me enjoying the twilight, done with sailing hard, finished with our thankfully brief experience with offshore cruising and wise enough to know how to enjoy the simple pleasures of sailing that we enjoy, I've got a vision (albeit wine induced) of who we will be and what we will want.

We got a glimpse of it the other day at the Seattle Boat Show. We managed to get ahead of the kids for a few moments and took a tour below the Sabre Spirit. First impression: What a warm little nook. Lots of soft contours. Wrap around space to find comfort with a good book on a gray afternoon. A smart little galley for a modest nosh. Simple. Comfort. Form meets function perfectly. Nice big V-berth. We were really thinking about gettin' naked when the kids rushed forward through the companion-way and we'll just hold that thought for a while. But, what's important from that moment was the way that everything fit together -- total unity. The interior structures created a balance and strength that was clearly felt. Granted, the generous use of crafted teak and holly added something to the experience. Something about that hard wood. How could well designed, contoured structural carbon fiber installations create a new age experience of comfort?. I've always been a Bauhaus fan. What other new age materials are available that could be used to create the comfort with 1/3 less weight and cost? Would getting naked be as much fun? In 15 years will I care? When we head out for the weekend, to gunkhole up on Sucia, or head down to Gig Harbor to meet some friends for the weekend. Maybe a jaunt over to Port Townsend for dinner and breakfast the next day. We just a nice place to be.

And we want to be there fast. Up top, the classic hull forms of Herreshoff and White project a classic aesthetic. All you smart sailing guys know why that worked then and why it creates such a timeless feel of wind and water now and forever. It just looks cool. And it's light. It's made of epoxy carbon laminate. It's got a deep blade and bulb. The carbon fractional rig is balanced. The jib is about 105/108 on a roller furling. Self tacking is an option desired by some. I like an articulating sprit for a mast head spinnaker. The total balance and layout of the boat favors a comfortable legs in ride for 4 crew: Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother, Grandson, . . . . It's Wednesday night and we're looking kick some ass around the cans.

Price matters. The Sabre Spirit weighs in at the equivalent price and 3 times the kerb weight of a F430 Spider. Can one can cut out the fat, hit the persona's criteria using best available technology to create an offering with a weight equal to the Spider and a cost less than half, in 2008 dollars?.

All things advance. I can wait a few years for this to happen. But until then, I'm not the customer, and therefore, my opinion doesn't really matter, yet.

[Presuming Ed]

Something like this? Mystery 35, drawn by Stephen Jones (Prima 38, the 1/4 tonner Oddjob, SJ32, Rustlers etc etc)

[TwoHeadsAreBetterThanOne]

Methinks you guys are looking for something like this:

http://www.duncanson...3083068e3b434ca

Two Heads

[steveromagnino]

Methinks the Toadstool style would be the way to go forward.

Hardly anything new, but I have sailed on one (once) and they go very well. A tiny bit small, but that is a function of length.

Underwater was completely modern shape; fin keel and balanced rudder.

With a full set of carbon spars painted as wood, and some nice 3DL sails, with a bit more sail area, you would have the best of both worlds.

Garden's balance and sense of art in his designs is just superb; Des Townsend in NZ was a bit the same in creating perfect sheer line boats; most designers end up with something perhaps more practical, but hardly art on the water e.g. the one preceding my post.


There is most definitely a market for beautiful boats, all those pointless Euro day sailors without big kites prove that.

Attached Files

•  toad1.jpg   26.06K   68 downloads
•  toad2.jpg   28.95K   78 downloads

[dacapo]

No self tacking jib. If the overlap is minimal you should be able to sheet is easily without it being self tacking. If you can't then warm up that golf cart. Self tacking is too limiting on sheeting angle adjustments. Trust me.


14' of cockpit? I'll take some of that when you are done.
Can't see that happening on a 38'er with cruising interior. Maybe we can try for 10'. I love big cockpits but there are some here that will rather trade for accomodations.
Maybe we should go down to 36'.
I like 36'.
I'm with Kris on LOA. Lets draw a boat and then see what we can fit inside it.

I agree. No self tacking jib.

and NO COUCHES in the cockpit

[Greever]

Heres my 2 cents:

Hoyt jib boom
mainsail furling (in boom, no reefing points needed, full battened)
tiller
simple white interior with minimal wood trim that can be removed from the boat to varnish
large cockpit with built in beer/soda cuddys (there won't be room for a cockpit table with a tiller)
yes it needs an entertainment center and a laptop friendly nav station/office area (come on folks, it's the 21st century!)
Bob: can a Scheel keel be fast enough for a cruiser? (cause shoal draft sells, especially on the East Coast. I've given up on talking you into a bilgekeeler!)
Maybe a daggerboard coupled with a shoaldraft keel to keep costs down while still giving good windward performance when needed? (I know it fucks up the interior)
simple systems (cost effective, cheap, whatever you want to call it)
Yes, the Wifeys want refrigeration and I do too!
Screw a boat that can fit in a container, beam would be too limited.
V-berth, with single head and 2 Pilot berths
inboard 2 cylinder diesel with minimal tankage, but an extra large holding tank (think 1 weeks worth at Catalina, not sure how big that would need to be?)


Pricepoint is critical if we are to compete with the clorox bottles (although I do think we could cut into their marketshare signifigantly with the right boat)

She needs to fit in a 35' slip (40' is too damn big/expensive for a weekender/coastal cruiser)


This is a lot of fun! I'll think of more stuff while I'm working today.


Bob: My apologies for hijacking the Jakatan thread. I get carried away sometimes.......

[NonOnion]

Keep the stern overhang. I'm thinking that you loose three feet out of the interior of my Rhodes 41 and you're on the right basic track. If I could redesign the boat, increase draft to 6', make the foot and garboard narrower by externally mounting the lead, modernize the curves for composite construction, and a few other things. On the new Perry Pussy Chaser 38, Keep a good bit of aft deck for asthetics, keep the main sheet out of the cockpit, at the aft end of it and reachable by the helmsperson, basic sloop rig, rigid vang, widish side decks with correspondingly narrow coach roof. See what you can do about keep headsail loads low enough that the girls can trim the thing. No 155% #1! On the interior, basic port and starboard transom berths. Keep within your LOA by using the aft end of one berth as the aft facing nav station. Don't know what you'll do to fit a stove though?

[sam_crocker]

Wasn't there a sister ship called "Eclipse", dark blue hull, no sprit, used to sit on K-dock before the remodel at Shilshoe?

Eclipse was sort of a sistership, but she was longer, heavier, and had a bigger transom. IIRC, the owner was a nephew of Sam Crocker and wanted to echo some of him in the boat. Last I saw the owner was fitting a bowsprit. Now there were a lot of names for Night Runner (like Night Crawler, and the Mayflower), but the crew on Night Runner called Eclipse "Tupper Runner" since she was a plastic boat.

I second the idea of taking the Orphan 38 as a starting point. Go ahead and cut the counter off and make her a transom stern, narrow her down a bit and I think we're pretty close. Keep her simple Bob, I think we can all agree that paying technicians to keep your boat running is no fun. I don't mind a little exterior upkeep, puttering about keeping the boat looking nice is good therapy. And the interior should be like a cabin in the woods - Maurice Griffiths used to make these really nice pen and ink drawings of the interiors of his designs when he spun a yarn - I'm thinking something like that.

And I'll definitely drop out if people start asking for something that looks like every other f'in boat out there today. More Sam Crocker, Rhodes, Nielsen, and Reimers and less Farr, Beneteau or whatever appeals to the masses.

[burnsed]

Would it be ok to look at another modern designer's idea for some inspiration? I remember seeing this boat several years ago and it just stuck in my memory bank as a beautiful blend of modern and classic.


http://www.lymanmors...y/gray_wolf.htm

[chessiebaysailor]

Heres my 2 cents:

Hoyt jib boom
mainsail furling (in boom, no reefing points needed, full battened)
tiller
simple white interior with minimal wood trim that can be removed from the boat to varnish
large cockpit with built in beer/soda cuddys (there won't be room for a cockpit table with a tiller)
yes it needs an entertainment center and a laptop friendly nav station/office area (come on folks, it's the 21st century!)
Bob: can a Scheel keel be fast enough for a cruiser? (cause shoal draft sells, especially on the East Coast. I've given up on talking you into a bilgekeeler!)
Maybe a daggerboard coupled with a shoaldraft keel to keep costs down while still giving good windward performance when needed? (I know it fucks up the interior)
simple systems (cost effective, cheap, whatever you want to call it)
Yes, the Wifeys want refrigeration and I do too!
Screw a boat that can fit in a container, beam would be too limited.
V-berth, with single head and 2 Pilot berths
inboard 2 cylinder diesel with minimal tankage, but an extra large holding tank (think 1 weeks worth at Catalina, not sure how big that would need to be?)
Pricepoint is critical if we are to compete with the clorox bottles (although I do think we could cut into their marketshare signifigantly with the right boat)

She needs to fit in a 35' slip (40' is too damn big/expensive for a weekender/coastal cruiser)
This is a lot of fun! I'll think of more stuff while I'm working today.
Bob: My apologies for hijacking the Jakatan thread. I get carried away sometimes.......

Here's another vote for shallower draft. It has to be able to cruise the East Coast, which means at 6' it would be prevented from enjoying many anchorages. I still think you could make a k/cb work. This is a cruiser, not a T-bulbed, skinny foiled windward/leeward wonder. Scheel keels are ok, but not great, at least on the Tartans. Put some effort into weight reduction above waterline and you can get pretty good ballast stability for blue water w/ a short keel, and the cb for when windward is a necessity.

I still like the notion of a split rig, but it would incur costs to make it in carbon for weight reduction. Ditch the hoyt boom. This boat will not have enough deck space forward for that and a dinghy if you want to put one on deck.

I say no fridge. Spend a little extra on a top grade insulated box and drop a bag of ice for your drinks, along w/ a block to keep dinner cold. "Herreshoff" interior is ok w/ me too, although I like some of the light wood interiors I've seen also. No dark teak pit below.

[Kris Cringle]

I second the idea of taking the Orphan 38 as a starting point. Go ahead and cut the counter off and make her a transom stern, narrow her down a bit and I think we're pretty close. Keep her simple Bob, I think we can all agree that paying technicians to keep your boat running is no fun. I don't mind a little exterior upkeep, puttering about keeping the boat looking nice is good therapy. And the interior should be like a cabin in the woods - Maurice Griffiths used to make these really nice pen and ink drawings of the interiors of his designs when he spun a yarn - I'm thinking something like that.

And I'll definitely drop out if people start asking for something that looks like every other f'in boat out there today. More Sam Crocker, Rhodes, Nielsen, and Reimers and less Farr, Beneteau or whatever appeals to the masses.

I'm with you Sam. We may not be able to decide what makes a classic boat (which was one of the first parameters I think), but we sure as hell have plenty of examples of boats today that are NOT classic boats and never will be. We already have too many parameters for one boat, or even three. I think innovation is great but only as an improvement, not the concept of the boat. The old designs were not one designers idea but the accumulation of many designers before.

I say let's not forget to look back.

 Passageemail2.jpg   74.23K   63 downloads

[dyslexic dog]

Bob,

I live in the same type of area you do (Michigan). Lots of rain and such, but very few of the cruisers live down below. They just add canvas on top. (Personally, I use a boom tent or umbrella.)
Large cockpit please, Salon is for a few people but it does not need to be huge. Large main, but most of the crusiers just unfurl a headsail and use that for a 1 hour sail. Long bunks also please, even the v-berth should handle 2 comfortably. Oh, and good ventalation.

Love the idea.

[Albatros]

bit weird to see that y'all start from looks and next try to go to practicalities.... so function follows form huh ? houses have been built like that where at the end somebody got round to finding that in their quest for purrrfect esthetics they somehow forgot the crappatorium on another forum in europe a couple of years ago we tried a similar experiment and it ended up with the fugliest of dogs, simple reason was that dogs is what you're gonna get when you try to please all.

give me a yacht that I can sail on my own, anywhere, anytime, not too big and not too small, liveable but not palatial and if the looks are good enough to be wanting to go back to the yacht each and every time then that's o.k. as a starter.

shortest brief : no matter what, each time when I would think about that yacht I would have to start to smile and feel happy. if you can do that Mr.Perry you're da man.