201 replies to this topic

[sailingkid]

I got given this late 70s model cherub from a friend of Dads. it says race proven on the back and i think ill re paint/ varnish it, then put an assy kite system on it with the 29er kite then because its mast feels overbuilt i may put twin traps on it. What do you guys think? or if you have any advice, history about this design etc please post.(tried to put pics on but it didnt work so ill try again.) Every time i put pics up when its finished uploading i get a grey bar across the uploading panel!

[aus_stevo]

why not just rebuild and race as a cherub?

[sailingkid]

1.I dont think it would be competitive against the new half carbon ones.
2. Its 30 years old
3.Ive got a 29er to race
4 i want to put twin trap on it!!!
5 i like the 29er
6 im too big!
Pics still dont work. anyone know why?

[Presuming Ed]

..then because its mast feels overbuilt i may put twin traps on it.

It's not a question of whether the mast is strong enough for twin wires. The question is: is the mast step strong enough for twin wires? Two people on the wire doubles the mast compression compared to just the crew. Pure guesswork on my part, but assuming the boat's of wood, I would doubt it.

Would be a shame to fire the stick through the bottom of the boat the first time you went sailing.

Why not restore it to "as new" condition, keep it in a garage and take it out for the occasional blast. Any Portsmouth Yardstick racing where you are? Ask nicely for a suitable handicap?

[LickitySplinter]

1.I dont think it would be competitive against the new half carbon ones.
2. Its 30 years old
3.Ive got a 29er to race
4 i want to put twin trap on it!!!
5 i like the 29er
6 im too big!
Pics still dont work. anyone know why?

Try downsizing the pics and save at 72 DPI.

[Ross_Cherub]

Try the UK Cherub website. www.uk-cherub.org There is loads of info on there on old boats, but mostly the UK designs. There is also bucket loads of info on how to repair and modify boats.

Aussie Cherubs and UK cherubs, though derived from the same class, are now vastly different. Comparing an old "woody" to a modern UK cherub and there is almost no resemblance!

The old picture is from a Worlds in the 1970's so it shows a similar boat to what yours will look like.

The new picture shows a UK Cherub being raced as a 12 foot skiff, but still using a UK Cherub rig.

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[FoilerMothGuy]

Chances are that you have an old Bethwaite or Murray shell as they were prolific duing the mid-late 70's, but you may also have a one off of some description as there were a lot of them around back then too. All old cherubs pre-1983 had deck stepped masts as that was the class rule (it took a boat called New Testament at the 82/83 worlds to find a loophole in the rules and force the rule to be relaxed - all modern cherubs have keel/false floor stepped masts with partners/mast gate to support the mast at deck level) and as such I doubt that you'll be able to keep the rig on the boat with twin traps and a 29er kite (which must almost be masthead for the ol cherub so maybe some uppers would be needed too)... you would need a lot more support of the lower mast and mast step IMHO to make it work. Also, kite retriever chutes in old cherubs were designed for the far smaller symmetrical kites and I doubt that you'll be able to get a 29er rag to slide down the retriever without enlarging it which can be a bit of a mission also - one option would be to fit some cockpit bags and cover the old chute perhaps?

Another option for your piccys is to upload them elsewhere and just provide links to the photos... try flickr or picasa.

[Chainsaw]

Contact this bloke:

Postal Address:

Firebug Headquarters (FBHQ)

PO Box 47 042, Ponsonby, Auckland 1144, New Zealand

Physical Address:

40 John Street, Ponsonby, Auckland 1011, New Zealand

Phone +64 9 360 1076

Fax +64 9 360 1076

Email: info@firebug.co.nz


he has plans for almost all of John Spencer's boats and may have an idea of exactly what you have.

[knobblyoldjimbo]

Don't the Cherubs have a classic group, like the Moths and the Sydney 18's. Good racing to be had there. We went through the classic fleet coming into SH recently - there were enough to make a good race and really that's what it's all about.

[sailingkid]

Im not gunna have two big blokes on the traps, just me, (60kgs) and my little brother. The mast is way overbuilt though i reckon because it weighs a lot more then my equivelent sized 29er mast. maybe ill put extra lowers on it to help with the compression issue but i cant see the rig getting pushed through the deck as it has a well built hunk of timber underneath it.
i also dont want another race boat i just want a boat i can go for a burn on and not have to hike!

[sailingkid]

Pics are up!!!! Sorry for the quality but i had to get them up somehow!!!

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[aus_stevo]

im sorry, did you just refer to yourself at 60kg, as a 'big bloke'?

[sailingkid]

im sorry, did you just refer to yourself at 60kg, as a 'big bloke'?

lol no i said i wont have any big blokes on the trap!

[Phil S]

Kid at your age and weight you need a moth. Especially as the nationals look like being in Geelong next January. You could pick up a non foil oldy for not much more than you will spend on the old cherub to make if thrilling, and the moth will always be a few steps ahead in speed and in excitement.

[JimC]

I'm no expert on Aus Cherub shapes, but I believethe Bethwaite boats were more slab sided. The Murrays we saw in the UK were flatter on the transom though, but I think there was more than one Murray shape.

If you are going to put two strings on an old wooden boat you will need checkstays to the base of the spreaders to keep the mast under control because the windward spreader will unload and stop having much effect with two string working, and you're probably not going to be able to put the sort of rig tension on you'd need.

You'll probably find that boat isn't the easiest platform to run two strings off. I would sail her in standard mode before you make any changes so you know what you're getting into. Its not going to be that much like a 29er...

[sailingkid]

Kid at your age and weight you need a moth. Especially as the nationals look like being in Geelong next January. You could pick up a non foil oldy for not much more than you will spend on the old cherub to make if thrilling, and the moth will always be a few steps ahead in speed and in excitement.

nah the doctor wont let me sail solo for a few more seziure free years yet. I like the moths but someone would always have a better boat unless you spend $18,000 and i dont think thats fair. I also dont want another race boat, thats why ive got the 29er! I also dont want another cruising boat, thats why i have a sabot. I want a blasting boat hence the big kite and maybe another set of wires.

[FoilerMothGuy]

so go find an el cheapo old 12 footer... there was one on ebay a few weeks back for $600 or something like that. Far cheaper and far easier to pimp out (they already have twin wires and huge rigs and are usually built in a tonka-esque manner) and it's a pity to see a nice piece of ply get a botched boob-job. Alternatively, an old wedge or buckland i14 would also fit the bill but would prob be a bit more exxy than an old beater nash 1 or 2 12' skiff.

[sailingkid]

so go find an el cheapo old 12 footer... there was one on ebay a few weeks back for $600 or something like that. Far cheaper and far easier to pimp out (they already have twin wires and huge rigs and are usually built in a tonka-esque manner) and it's a pity to see a nice piece of ply get a botched boob-job. Alternatively, an old wedge or buckland i14 would also fit the bill but would prob be a bit more exxy than an old beater nash 1 or 2 12' skiff.

yeah but i dont want to spend money obtaining another boat when i got this one for free.Ill still put the 29er kite on it, and then ill see if it needs the twin traps.

[JimC]

and then ill see if it needs the twin traps.

Oh she won't *need* them. A 29er is very roughly a Cherub with a long thin bow and the rags are much the same size. Put one on for fun by all means, but you'll probably find you actually sail slower!

Oh, I note the boat has the short bow tank interior layout with a straight beam across back of the foredeck. This is not an ideal solution for coping with big rig loads - there are better ways of engineering the boat. You need to be very wary.

[Speedycustard]

. . . NFW!!! I one EXACTLY like that, mine was given to me too, I took it to a regatta and accidentally put the mast through the foredeck whilst dicking around with a mast breaker!
Went like a rocket when I put a RS400 kite on it Seriously though, I took it out with my mate in a force 5 and unless you have a crazy big rig on it I really doubt you'll need twin traps!

Have fun, I shall post up some pics of mine when I find some . . .

Speedy

[Ross_Cherub]

Don't bother with twin traps. A 29er kite will be fine and in a force 4-5+ you'll be flying! I have a 91 rules Cherub (Flat Stanley) with 11.5 upwind and a 13 meter kite. I've had it out in 30 knots and when I put the kite up there was nothing that could touch me. At 60 kilo's and if your crew is a similar size you will pace you 29er, if not out run it downwind in a blow (assuming it's down to weight).

[sailingkid]

Ok then so it sounds like i wont need any extra stays for the masthead 29er kite then?

[JimC]

Ok then so it sounds like i wont need any extra stays for the masthead 29er kite then?

I doubt the 29er kite will be masthead... Your mast will be 20 feet above the deck. Depending on the mast section you can go to about halfway between hounds and tip with the kite hoist without too much risk - especially if you are disciplined about keeping the kicker on and the boom in a reasonable amount when its howling to give some support. This pic is about as high on the hoist as you should consider risking, and that's on something of a treetrunk of a mast.



Oh yes, you will need a longer pole than a 29er has... Measure the distance from the mast foot to the end of the pole on your 29er and that's what you need for the Cherub. You could rig up a fixed pole of course , and that will be shorter, much less boat surgery and you get to pratice for 12 footers...

[sailingkid]

Oh yes, you will need a longer pole than a 29er has... Measure the distance from the mast foot to the end of the pole on your 29er and that's what you need for the Cherub. You could rig up a fixed pole of course , and that will be shorter, much less boat surgery and you get to pratice for 12 footers...

Thanks for your help Jim, i was planning a fixed pole system because i dont want to cut to many big holes it the boat, and a fixed pole will look cool and all of the real skiffs have fixed poles anyway!

[sailingkid]

I started on the sanding today with my Dads fancy new belt sander, and in about 10 minutes ive done 3/4 of the deck. There is hardly any varnish on it though, although it does have some bulges in the hull where the wood must have got water in it and some stage and swelled up and dad thinks we might have to put a new peice of wood there.

[nick125]

hmm what grit sand paper are you using on the belt sander? are you just trying to revarnish it?

[Ross_Cherub]

That’s brave, using a belt sander. I'm surprised you haven’t gone through the deck! I think orbital sanders are kinder.

[JimC]

That’s brave, using a belt sander. I'm surprised you haven’t gone through the deck! I think orbital sanders are kinder.

I think we've all used a belt sander from time to time, Its only really a complete no no if you've got a kevlar boat, because hitting the kevlar is such a nightmare... Although the random orbital is my weapon of choice these days sometimes the belt has to come out...

[Luke Piewalker]

Power sanders eh.... I long for somewhere dry enough to use a power sander.... At least you can wet sand in the rain...

[JimC]

Power sanders eh.... I long for somewhere dry enough to use a power sander.... At least you can wet sand in the rain...

In the extraordinarily unlikely event that I should get rich the kit I really want in the workshop is an air powered orbital sander I saw used in the motor trade. A power sander that you can safely use wet sure sounds like a great bit of kit to me...

[Presuming Ed]

In the extraordinarily unlikely event that I should get rich the kit I really want in the workshop is an air powered orbital sander I saw used in the motor trade. A power sander that you can safely use wet sure sounds like a great bit of kit to me...

There's an idea.

Random orbital sander £35 - seems wrong, but here's the price? and a compressor for £70 at Screwfix.
So yes, more expensive than an electric random orbital, but not an outrageous amount of cash.

[usa7606]

There's an idea.

Random orbital sander £35 - seems wrong, but here's the price? and a compressor for £70 at Screwfix.
So yes, more expensive than an electric random orbital, but not an outrageous amount of cash.

I think you might need a bigger compressor than that to keep up with an air sander, they use a lot of air. I worked in a woodshop with a heavy industrial type 5 hp air compressor and it wouldn't run the orbital air sander continuously.

[sailingkid]

At the moment im using the belt that came with the sander when we bought it, and it barly touches the deck and its back to wood. Im planning to varnish the foredeck and paint a stripe of white up the middle like i saw on a swift solo's hull on here a while back, then ill probably paint the cockpit and decks white, and maybe varnish the frames though so you and see the nice colours. Then i will paint the hull red. Then, i will call it something oldschool like Speedracer. Then ill probably end up putting the old kite pole on as a bowsprit as it is alluminium and as strong and heavy as.

[Presuming Ed]

I think you might need a bigger compressor than that to keep up with an air sander, they use a lot of air. I worked in a woodshop with a heavy industrial type 5 hp air compressor and it wouldn't run the orbital air sander continuously.

Oops yes. Didn't quite realise how much 4cfm was. Doesn't sound like much!

Anway, this one should keep up. 7cfm for £92. http://www.axminster...essor-21377.htm

[JimC]

Random orbital sander £35 - seems wrong,

Trouble is you really need the oil free one, as a cheap one gives you get a very fine oil mist from the air exhaust which is not great for the next coat of paint. Then you also really need a dust extraction system as these air sanders don't have built in filter boxes like the electric ones. So pretty soon its 170 quid for the top spec sander, 170 quid for the wet/dry vacuum cleaner with the power tool socket, probably another 170 quid for the air compressor, and you need the compressor out of the main workshop because of the noise and the dust and and and... I'd get the ordinary orbital, not the random orbital because I don't suppose wet and dry paper with the hooks for trhe random orbital comes cheap... Of course both would be good... I've got up to 500quid plus the building works so far...

[JimC]

Then ill probably end up putting the old kite pole on as a bowsprit as it is alluminium and as strong and heavy as.

See if you can blag a broken carbon board mast or dinghy top mast. You don't want any more weight out their than you can afford, and also good to keep the real pole intact...

[sailingkid]

See if you can blag a broken carbon board mast or dinghy top mast. You don't want any more weight out their than you can afford, and also good to keep the real pole intact...

yeah, good idea, but this one i as long as the boat nearly and i thought i might have been eventually ably to pick up an old 12 foot skiff no 4 kite or something of the equvilent size and turbo it a bit more. How do you guys think this will go as a single handed skiff? Also the centreboard is 6 inches longer then a tasar one so im not sure weather its designed to be sailed witha bit of board up or not?

[Speedycustard]

As promised heres some photos of mine, it'd been converted to an assymetric kite by the time I got it with a chute, windsurfer mast pole and it also has a rudder gantry.
Unfortunately I haven't got any shots with the borrowed RS400 kite on but even with my oversized crew here it made the boat pretty nippy!
Enjoy

Speedy

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[JimC]

Unfortunately I haven't got any shots with the borrowed RS400 kite on but even with my oversized crew here it made the boat pretty nippy!

An RS400 Kite is tiny! Its not even very much bigger than the pole kite that Montague Egg had when she was built! Incidentally Montague Egg is a Murray as I suspect SailingKid's boat is...

[Speedycustard]

I know, thats why I was pleasantly surprised But whats this about "Montague Egg"??
Do you know something of this charity boat of mine!?

[JimC]

I know, thats why I was pleasantly surprised But whats this about "Montague Egg"??
Do you know something of this charity boat of mine!?

2605 is Montague Egg, a Murray design, built I would think around 1980. Among past owners was Guy Wilkins, a former Mirror World Champion.

[DaveK]

Trouble is you really need the oil free one, as a cheap one gives you get a very fine oil mist from the air exhaust which is not great for the next coat of paint. Then you also really need a dust extraction system as these air sanders don't have built in filter boxes like the electric ones. So pretty soon its 170 quid for the top spec sander, 170 quid for the wet/dry vacuum cleaner with the power tool socket, probably another 170 quid for the air compressor, and you need the compressor out of the main workshop because of the noise and the dust and and and... I'd get the ordinary orbital, not the random orbital because I don't suppose wet and dry paper with the hooks for trhe random orbital comes cheap... Of course both would be good... I've got up to 500quid plus the building works so far...

Jim... I'm sorry to say this but oil free compressors suck, they can be more expensive, they are very loud and don't last. I use oil and water traps and I spray 2 pack paint with my oil filled compressor and I have never had a fish eye problem from it for over 10 years. That's the only thing I haven't fuked up from painting.

As far as the CFM thing goes, 5 is small but the link shows a sander with much more than that. It didn't list it but I can tell by looking at it that it's much more than my dynabrade sander shown here is listed at 18 SCFM but more realistic at 11 cfm or so and my 7HP 60 Gal. compressor can keep up (barely) which cost about $400US. So based on the dollar free fall, that equals about some random number.

Belt sanders would tear through ply fast and so do random orbitals. This must be some other type of wood.

BTW.... I am now a self declared wood expert after doing ONE wood deck!

[Ross_Cherub]

Wasn't Montague Egg Dan Kemble's first boat? Was it Murray that designed Flat Stanley?

A 29er kite is spot on area wise for a single wire Cherub. I think they're the same size as a 97 rules UK Cherub but the width of the boats maybe be different (old Aus boat and a 97 rules UK Cherub). Jim will correct me I'm sure.

I have to agree with Jim about the 400 kite, it's tiny!

[JimC]

Was it Murray that designed Flat Stanley?

Sort of. Flat Stanley was heavily tweaked especially about the bow. I think most UK Murrays were a later flat sterned design, Now I think of it SailingKids boat has quite a Flat Stanley like transom.

[sailingkid]

Mine also has very odd foils. Like i said before, the centreboard is massive although incredibly narrow, and the rudder is only 6 inches longer then a sabot rudder, or half the size of the centreboard.

[JimC]

Mine also has very odd foils. Like i said before, the centreboard is massive although incredibly narrow, and the rudder is only 6 inches longer then a sabot rudder, or half the size of the centreboard.

Yeah that's kinda of the era. A very high aspect ratio board, rather like 505s are using now, and a rudder that's only just big enough. Back in the days before folk realised that loading up the rudder with side force in moderation was a good thing you'd aim for a rudder that was a close to unloaded and neutral as possible, so with no pull on the hand, and a big board. Nowadays we accept some load on the rudder, make it a bit bigger, and can have a much smaller db. Amongst other advantages you get less of an issue with lee helm downwind and can put more rake in the rig.

[sailingkid]

Cool. Im thinking i might paint the foils orange because all fast boats have orange foils! And im on holidays now so i can put some work into it as well!

[Ross_Cherub]

Mine are luminous yellow.

[sailingkid]

Ok I suppose thats fast as well. I cant wait till mines finished. If i work hard enough i might have the deck finished by the end of the holidays.

[sailingkid]

Im wondering if anyone has and ideas on how to mount the bowsprit to the hull, with minimum work, but we may have acess to that area (inside the forward tank) for a while because we need to fix the spot where the hull is swollen and we will probably cut it out, so we may be able to mount frames etc in the boat then if we have to.

[sailingkid]

any ideas?

[JimC]

Im wondering if anyone has and ideas on how to mount the bowsprit to the hull, with minimum work,

Minimum work is the challenge...

http://www.sailingso...ut.htm#bowsprit

This is all about retracting poles. If you keep with the fixed pole idea, and why not, then maybe what I would do would be to mould a carbon structure round the bow that includes a tenon to go in the pole a couple of inches (use a short bit of tube) and runs back around six inches down either gunwhale and down the stem so that you can screw it into gunwhale/stem in several places. But see if you can tak to the twelve footer boys who have actually done this. The more mature guys will probably have done conversions.

[Ross_Cherub]

My Cherub has been converted from a pole kite to asymmetric kite. He has had the starboard inspection hatch removed and the pole goes through it. When fully extended it stops on the cockpit side of the front tank. It retracts to within about 200mm of the transom though I pull it out a bit to stop the tack line twisting over the end of the pole. You would think that it gets in the way but surprisingly it only makes sailing him easier! You can step on it to get out on the wire.

It is a 12 foot pole. 2 string system. The red line is the pole launch. It retracts automatically when you drop the kite (uncleat it first obviously).

The picture of the bow shows the tack line. It is tied on to the knuckle of the bow, goes though the underside of the pole then through the top and to the tack of the kite. When the kite is dropped the tack line is pulled backwards pulling the pole in. Obviously when you launch the pole, it pulls the tack out. I have now changed the layout so the helm launches the pole and the crew hoists. It is very easy and the spinnaker is set in seconds.

Sorry for the crappy pictures, they were just what I was sent when I was buying the boat.

If you want a quick and easy system to put together then a fixed pole is your only way. AFAIK this is the only way to have a retracting pole on a boat such as yours.

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[sailingkid]

Thanks, i was thinking i could put a big hunk of timber inside the bow under the deck, then just mount some brackets on that, and build a frame for the forstay around the bracket. Then i might just need a support string attached 1/4 of the way up from the bow.

[sailingkid]

So do you guys think my plan will work?

[sailingkid]

I was thinking that instead of a bowsprit i could use a 29er kite as a masthead off the old pole system, although im not sure how this would work. Im definetly still gunna put twin traps on it though. Oh and the sail number is 25** (cant remeber the last 2 numbers) so does anyone know era this boat is exatly then?

[Ross_Cherub]

I would sail it with one wire first and see how it sails.

Use a bowsprit for a kite that was designed to use a bowsprit.

[JimC]

I was thinking that instead of a bowsprit i could use a 29er kite as a masthead off the old pole system, although im not sure how this would work. Im definetly still gunna put twin traps on it though. Oh and the sail number is 25** (cant remeber the last 2 numbers) so does anyone know era this boat is exatly then?

Gybing an asymettric kite on a pole on a Cherub would be an exciting mission. It used to be done back in the 50s and early 60s but involves two sheets on the clew and two guys on the tack, plus you still have to swap the pole from side to side. I really don't know how people managed it: there must have been some ace crews and some slow gybes back then! Plus you'd really need a longer pole...

If you're going to have a fixed pole I really wouldn't put structure inside the boat. You actually want the pole to just drop off if a pole stay breaks, the last thing you want is for it to be socketed inside the boat without enough strength to hold it unstayued because there lies total and complete destruction of your boat!

You really need to get hold of the 80s/90s skiffies for this stuff, they've done it before, we haven't, but I'd get out the carbon and make up something like this... Then shrouds back tp the main shroud area I guess, and a bob stay right to the bottom of the stem. If you figure out 29er length of pole then you can probably get away without spreaders on the pole I guess. Again the Twelve boys would know...

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[sailingkid]

Im sorry Jim but i really dont get what that picture is of.. So i dont need to place a huge hunk of timber in the boat then! I was hoping that i wouldnt have to. Do you guys think i will get away with this idea? Basically just putting 2 U clamps (i dont know what there called, thats just what my little brother calls them) on the deck and bolting the pole onto the deck with 1 stay down to the bow, see pictures.

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[JimC]

Im sorry Jim but i really dont get what that picture is of.. So i dont need to place a huge hunk of timber in the boat then! I was hoping that i wouldnt have to. Do you guys think i will get away with this idea? Basically just putting 2 U clamps (i dont know what there called, thats just what my little brother calls them) on the deck and bolting the pole onto the deck with 1 stay down to the bow, see pictures.

Frankly no, I reckon that will rip out of the boat taking half the foredeck with it within about ten seconds of hoisting the kite... The loads on these things are huge, it takes bitter experience, preferably someone elses!

What the device I've sketched is is a sort of gadget to hold a tenon that goes over the bow. The prod sockets onto this, just to keep it in place, you want it short enough that the pole can just fall off if a prod shroud breaks. You will have the prod fall of while you are working this up, so you need there to be no damage when it happens! Then the prod has 3 shrouds (don't reckon you'll need spreaders if you keep it short ) one to the base of the stem, the others probably back to the main shroud annchor area. The prod shrouds need to be really tight, best is to have a lashing on the bobstay that you can really wind on the load with. They need to be 200lbs tension plus I guess, which tells you how strong the anchors need to be. The one in the stem is the most difficult, eay to rip them stem off. You need to look inside the front tank with a torch and figue where you can get a bolt from side to side through solid wood. Bolt through with a stainless plate like a shroud plate each side and tie the bobstay to that...

Maybe these sketches help more?

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[sailingkid]

Wow thats an awsome idea! That seems simple enough to do.

[Helmy]

Hey Sailing Kid...
I think I built your boat...1979/80
Is the sail number 2807?
Is it named Big Yellow Taxi?
Last I saw of it it was sailing at Portarlington in the mid 80's (I was over there sailing skiff Moths), so if you're in Geelong it fits.
Even the Truflo jib looks like the original

Let me know and I'll give you a history of the era, design and the construction of the boat - may help you with the pole construction

Also interested to hear from Flying Colours - obviously a Cherub diehard from the 80's if he remembers New testament and that infamous Brisbane Worlds in 82/83.

Helmy

[Phil S]

I do not think Flying Colours was born in 1983. But he seems to have studied a lot of old sailing history. Right Jon?

[FoilerMothGuy]

yep that's a good way of putting it - was born '86 but have a lot of old sailing yearbooks and a lot of old australian sailing mags that i've read a few more times than any normal sane person would or should. Also I have a bit of a soft spot for cherubs, just reckon that they're a great little boat. NT was well documented in the 1983/84 yearbook edited by bob ross... the writer of the particular article was the guy who had Goodnight Saigon (2860) whose name escapes me for the time being, and I've also seen some photos of NT as well as WOP and the original Foreign Affair. NT definitely goes down in history as one of the pivotal changes in aus cherub design history- i gather that it was responsible for at least one well heated measurement row at worlds and the preceding nationals. How's the NS and int14 thing going Helmy? You and I had some interesting discussion about fitting a tfoil rudder to an NS at one stage...

[Helmy]

Ahh, Jon / Emo I presume?
The NS is going well - my 5 year old can now steer it with a bit of help, and the 7 year old can do also. But ballet lessons, kids parties etc etc get in the way a bit, so I've brought myself out of retirement and bought a Musto Skiff.
By some quirk of fate the "guy who sailed Goodnight Saigon" actually sailed with me in the NS14 Nationals at xmas. (The girls are too small to race with). His name is Robert Keeley. He was sailing Cherubs with me, but I've also managed to drag him through Moths as well (and now NS14's).
But now for your Cherub history lesson :
I'll save the history of what I think is my old boat for Sailing Kid, but here's a 70-80's history :
The Bethwaite designed boats dominated through the 70's until Iain Murray came along. One of his first designs was also sailed as a 12, and it was characterised by an extremely wide topsides at the stern. This was eventually tucked in more conventionally, and his designs took over, with many built by McConaghy. "Colour Me Too" was a successful one at the same time as Murray's 18 "Colour 7". Michael Nash designed a few at that time as well, ably sailed by one of his disciples Brian Smith.
At the same time Phil Smith and Vicki Weeks were sailing Nikki Bethwaites old boat "Nix", which was a legend boat, but getting old in the tooth, being a ply boat in the new generation of foam s/wich boats. Importantly they had too little freeboard, but read on...
They built a new foam s/wich boat, still very much modelled on Nix. I was there when it appeared for the first time on Lake Macq. for the NSW state titles (1980?). It had no topcoat, the decks had been sealed with resin only, and had no fittings on it when they turned up late for the first race. From memory there was a delay for the first race, so that gave them a chance to get it fitted out...they won that race, and the Titles I think...when asked about the high topsides on the boat, Phil replied that he was sick of getting a wet arse, so he raised the topsides.
So every current day Cherub sailor has Phil Smith's wet arse to thank for the higher topsides on Cherubs...
They named the boat Wop, after Vicki's dog. They won the next Nationals in Perth.
After this minor revolution, Foreign Affair and New Testament from NZ turned up at the 83 Brisbane Worlds and cleaned up. Foreign Affair was a Wop hull carrying Hood sails from the Sydey loft (unheard of), and sailed with end boom sheeting, lots of twist and very little vang. New Testatment was the more interesting of the boats, and I think it went on to win a Worlds a couple of years later.
The rest is History, with not a lot of change since Phil and Vicki's WOP. About the same time the Pom's split when the World vote to narrow the hulls and increase the sail area failed.
One has to wonder if the Aus Cherub class would have survived better if those changes in '83 had been voted in.
What a great boat they are.
I still have photos of Wop and New Testament - I'll see if I can scan them and upload them
Helmy

[JimC]

But now for your Cherub history lesson :

Good stuff, thanks. So modern AUS Cherubs have a lot more Bethwaite than Murray in, interesting. The Brit bopats which permit narrower chines have evolved the same way as later Bethwaite hulls have too - the 29er is a lot like a UK Cherub with a long thing bow in underwater shape... Convergent evolution: The Pom boats went that way before the 49er came out.

[FoilerMothGuy]

Jim, the Aus cherubs nowadays have evolved well past bethwaite, although the Wop/Foreign Affair influenced high topsides are still evident. Most new Aus cherubs are Matthews hulls which have a very distinct turn in the chine and very straight forward and aft sections, very flat rocker and bottom as well, in fact aus cherubs have almost been one designed by the matthews shape, much the same as the thorpe hungry tiger hulls were the "standard" for quite a while in moths.

Speaking of UK cherubs Jim, the former worlds winning UK rules boat Sports Cherub 2667 (is on ebay at the moment for AU$1500... now called Blonde Ambition. Interested anyone?

It was designed by Iain Murray for a syndicate of 3 or 4 18 foot guys who wanted to create an assymetric skiff starter in AUS, and built by Freddy Phillips with a view to mass producing them... only problem is that there was only 2 or 3 made and the moulds sat at dinghysports for years unused, sadly. The Aus guys still let it race simply because the aus boats have well and truely caught up, but in the right hands with a bit of a rig modernisation that boat should be PDQ. It was basically the boat that finally pushed AUS cherubs over the edge to convert to carry asymetrics after it was wielded by a crack 420 crew for the last cherub worlds and won fairly convincingly.

Anyway... to add some closure to your cherub history there Helmy, "Nix" is now the best TV/AV cabinet I've ever seen. It resides in the clubhouse of the Lake Cootharaba Sailing Club on the Sunshine Coast of Qld.... I gather it made it's way up to Queensland in the late 80s or early 90s and slowly started to die from old age, where upon it was donated to the club and given the furnature conversion treatment and put in as a permanent fixture there around 1995. I know it's sad for such a famous boat to wind up that way, but at least it's used and seen every weekend, unlike one of the early wooden Finns which represented AUS at an olympics in the early 50s... it was cut in half and made into a chest of drawers in one of the offices at Royal Queensland Yacht Squadron!! Also, the old "Stanley Crocodile" (an ACT boat from your time that I gather had a few top results provided that it was millpond conditions...) hangs in the bar at the ANU Sailing Club in Canberra. Hugh Stodart's old "Pistacoid" was also in the ANU Shed about 5 years ago, albeit in very poor condition so I suspect it has since been given a vikings burial.

[sailingkid]

sorry i havent been replying, ive been on holidays,
yes the boats sail no is 28** (i cant remember the last 2 digits, but they have been changed since original) The measurment date on the sails 80/81 or 79/80, i cant remember whiuch because i havent looked at the sails for a while, the transom has been fibreglassed so i dont know the name, but there cant be to many bright yellow cherubs around from that era. so how strong is the bow section helmy?

[JimC]

Jim, the Aus cherubs nowadays have evolved well past bethwaite, although the Wop/Foreign Affair influenced high topsides are still evident. Most new Aus cherubs are Matthews hulls which have a very distinct turn in the chine and very straight forward and aft sections, very flat rocker and bottom as well, in fact aus cherubs have almost been one designed by the matthews shape, much the same as the thorpe hungry tiger hulls were the "standard" for quite a while in moths.

Yep, I've kept a bit of an eye on things... The Matthews hulls are very trick. I like the way that it gives the effect of a narrower, flatter hull but with the chine surface developed out to meet the mid length measurement point - at leats that's how it looks to my eyes...

The problems of the Cherubs with mid length rise of floor rules distorting shape were a signiicant influence on the new Canoe rules, where the rise of floor restriction just needs to occur somewhere with a substantial region of boat rather than be fixed at mid length.

"Nix" is now the best TV/AV cabinet I've ever seen. It resides in the clubhouse of the Lake Cootharaba Sailing Club on the Sunshine Coast of Qld....

Photo anyone?

[Ross_Cherub]

I want the Sports Cherub so much!

[JimC]

I want the Sports Cherub so much!

I love the description, which is so nicely wrong...

...English design built in Australia for Australian regulations.

in fact she's of course an Australian Design built in Australia to English regulations...

[Ross_Cherub]

hmmm, I wonder if I could start collecting famous Cherubs. Flat Stanley, The Jenifer Julian, Sports Cherub...

[JimC]

hmmm, I wonder if I could start collecting famous Cherubs. Flat Stanley, The Jenifer Julian, Sports Cherub...

Lets think, that's three world Champ boats we've located in this thread:-

1970 - Jennifer Julian - that was a foam sandwich boat. Who knows... That would be a boat and a half to find *serious* provenance!

1972 - St Paul . Presumably NZL.

1974 - Jet. Contemporary reports suggest that Jet was a little less than brand new even at the Champs... Unlikley to have survived...

1976 - Nix - Lake Cootharaba Sailing Club (as furniture)

1978 Queenie SJB 4 - last heard of stored in Dave Finch's garage in the UK in the mid 80s.

1980 - Flat Stanley - with Ross

1983 - Foreign Affair - AUS somewhere

1985 - Foreign Affair again...

1989 - Rocky and Bullwinkle. AUS, and I believe still active in the AUS fleet.

1991 - Tasman Express. NZ presumably.

1996 - Sports Cherub - available on Ebay.

I have the 1974 3rd place boat, Queenie SJB 2.

[FoilerMothGuy]

That's Nix in the background - She had to be shortened a bit to fit in im sad to say, so she's only .8 of a cherub now

[skiffboy]

Pretty sure Rocky & Bullwinkle came up for the nationals at christmas time.

I'm also pretty sure I sailed Goodnight Saigon once down at Inverloch. One of my mates was looking at buying it - is this what the kid now has?

[sailingkid]

My boats current sail no is acctually 2588, but it used to say 2488 and has been changed.

[Andrew P]

Im wondering if anyone has and ideas on how to mount the bowsprit to the hull, with minimum work, but we may have acess to that area (inside the forward tank) for a while because we need to fix the spot where the hull is swollen and we will probably cut it out, so we may be able to mount frames etc in the boat then if we have to.

I'm doing a smiliar rebuild for my daughter and I to muck around in, in a few years.

I put a i14 pole tube launch tube out of a old fourteen that had a deck rebuild into the hull, going from the bow, just under the gunnel to the main bulkhead, so that it angle up somewhat.

jason king at frankston is doing a similar job on a Ice hull at the moment. That bowsprit section may be available for reuse. Pole bowsprit section came with plastic slip rings for the launch pole integral with the carbon tube.

Launch Pole section is an old FRP windsurfer mast bottom section with some carbon unis laid along it.

I've also ripped out the keel and flattened the rocker aft of the cb case to speed the old girl up a bit. New case will take a broken 14 Cb as the new CB. There are a few broken high aspect 14 boards around at the moment that could be used for other boats. A consequence of the intro of gybing boards in the I14 class.

say high to your old man.

[FoilerMothGuy]

24xx or 25xx can't be for your boat otherwise it'd be from the UK, as all numbers in the 24xx and 25xx range were IIRC. Cherub #s are dealt out in groups of 50 to 100 among different countries, which is why UK boats are 269x at the moment, NZ boats (although cherubs are pretty much dead in NZ, which is a big pity) are around 274x and aus boats are in the mid 3100s at the moment. 3200-3300 is due to go to the UK after 2699. The only exception to this was 3001-3050 which was dealt to Italy for some strange reason...

Murray hulls came to prominance in the late 70s/early 80s, with their use-by date falling somewhere around '85 when Foreign Affair (which is basically Wop) hulls took over and started to be mass produced by Jules O'Mahoney. A low 28xx number would match a murray design like your boat. The only thing that has me a bit curious about it is the lack of kite chute in the bow, and the slightly abnormal under foredeck structure may point towards your boat as having had bags for one reason or another (most murrays had the front bulkhead just behind the mast step, whereas yours seems to have a ring frame behind the mast step and the front bulkhead a little way further forward). Most boats around then did run kite chutes from what I can work out. Helmy may be able to fill you in on this if this was the one the he built. If you are converting to an assymetric, you may be up for installing a chute as bags are a pain in the ass on boats this size (12 foot skiffs get by with them, but their huge chutes pretty much demand a bag, and even then there are some nowadays going to a full boat length chute and a retractable pole to make things better on the start line and perhaps make for marginally quicker drops).

[JimC]

24xx or 25xx can't be for your boat otherwise it'd be from the UK, as all numbers in the 24xx and 25xx range were IIRC.

UK numbers were 2301-2350, 2401-2450, 2501-2550, 2601-2650. I think 2451-2500 was AUS, and 2551 to 2600 NZ. 2651 - 2700 was I believe originally AUS but reused in Britain when relations between the Aus and Brit fleets were *really* poor after the breakup.

The trouble with the tube through the front bulkhead is if you end up with a really long pole that's a trip hazard in the cockpit.

[Ross_Cherub]

It's fine in FS. Makes trapezing easier!

[Matt D]

How does the gybing board make for more boards being available? I thought the board was the same, but the cassette gybed.

I'm doing a smiliar rebuild for my daughter and I to muck around in, in a few years.

I put a i14 pole tube launch tube out of a old fourteen that had a deck rebuild into the hull, going from the bow, just under the gunnel to the main bulkhead, so that it angle up somewhat.

jason king at frankston is doing a similar job on a Ice hull at the moment. That bowsprit section may be available for reuse. Pole bowsprit section came with plastic slip rings for the launch pole integral with the carbon tube.

Launch Pole section is an old FRP windsurfer mast bottom section with some carbon unis laid along it.

I've also ripped out the keel and flattened the rocker aft of the cb case to speed the old girl up a bit. New case will take a broken 14 Cb as the new CB. There are a few broken high aspect 14 boards around at the moment that could be used for other boats. A consequence of the intro of gybing boards in the I14 class.

say high to your old man.

[Andy P]

UK numbers were 2401-2450, 2501-2550, 2601-2650. I think 2451-2500 was AUS,

There was a bit of confusion around 2450 - at the 1980 Worlds in the UK, one boat from UK was 2450, and one from AUS 'Last Chance Power Drive' also with 2450!

[Andrew P]

How does the gybing board make for more boards being available? I thought the board was the same, but the cassette gybed.

More cb's around, because when the cassette parts are not made correctly and the sharp edge of the bottom of the hull hits the cb, it creates a stress concentrator and the boards snap off. Hence there are boards at various lengths around as a result.

[sailingkid]

Maybe my boats got an english main then. I think it was probably made by truflo because the jib was but i didnt check. I think ill just put a bag in instead of a chute because i dont want to cut holes in the main bulkhead.

[sailingkid]

I could just put the bag next to the centreboard case...

[sailingkid]

Heres some pictures of what it looks like now:

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[JimC]

I could just put the bag next to the centreboard case...

An alternative would be to cut a circular hole in the foredeck each side of the mast and have a bag between deck and bulkhead. You'll need to reinforce round the hole to get the stiffness back as the ply helps support that area...

[sailingkid]

Yeah,thats a good idea and Dad says we could do that.

[WhatThe]

Pretty sure Rocky & Bullwinkle came up for the nationals at christmas time.

Yes Rocky did sail at the AUS Cherub Nationals by a couple of guys from Belmont.

As for the bowsprit attachment issues that you have, the sketches that you have are on the right track. I have seen a similar method used on MG14s, though they dont screw any thing on. There is just a little locating rod to align the pole and the rest is held secure buy the wire's. The one thing you may have to look at is how you are going to attach the lower wire e.g screw a sadle in the stem (although not suggested).

If you would like a better history of you boat you can contact the National comittee, and they will put you on the right path as they have all of the records etc. They can be contacted via the AUS cherub web site www.cherub.org.au .

Also at the site there is a mesage board which you can post questions etc, as there is some other people doing similar things.

Ben

[sailingkid]

Ok, does anyone think this boat would go ok on a light day as a single handed skiff? Because with twin traps i cant see us acctually needing the 2nd trap in under 17 knots of breeze. The next job i have to do is re glue in the front bulkhead.

[sailingkid]

threads dying because i need to wait for Dad to get back from the desert to buy the fibreglass i need to fix the front bulkhead...

[sailingkid]

we finished sanding the deck, then we decided to flip it over and have a look at the big lump in the side and about 1 foot x 8 inches of it is all rotted out (dad sanded a hole in it, grabbed it and it fell to bits) the front bulkhead has also come off the hull on the starboard side. The boat has obviously been repaired at some stage and has filled with water. We also found a lighter bowsprit in my old 29er top mast section and due to the gaping hole in the front we cant do a proper conversion rather then a dodgy one.

[sailingkid]

Dad chiseled off all the old fibreglass on the centreboard tonight and i started to pull off the wood along the topsides, i did the starboard side then started on the port side until i got to a bit where some putty had been put once upon a time, chisiled it off then it pulled off 3 square inches of the foredeck.

[Muzza]

Keep the posts coming!

[sailingkid]

Ok i will. Today i finished ripping off the forward topsides. Now we are nearly ready to start putting the boat back together rather then pulling it apart.

[FoilerMothGuy]

So by now it should be looking a little bit like this: (Photo care of Cherub news)

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[sailingkid]

No, it looks like this: there are a couple of pics of the hole in the hull, another pic of where the bulkhead has come off the hull and the frames, a pic of where a soft spot is(the picture of the hull sanded back) another picture of where i hit the putty and broke the deck(sorry its not in focus) and a picture of where all the ants were and the wood is all missing(possibly eaten)

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•  cherub_bulkhead_coming_off_1.jpg   589.57K   10 downloads

[sailingkid]

Also Dad was over i WA last week and he saw a really easy kite chute idea made out of a fibreglass entry and pvc pipe so now he wants to build one of them to.

[Mexican]

we finished sanding the deck, then we decided to flip it over and have a look at the big lump in the side and about 1 foot x 8 inches of it is all rotted out (dad sanded a hole in it, grabbed it and it fell to bits) the front bulkhead has also come off the hull on the starboard side. The boat has obviously been repaired at some stage and has filled with water. We also found a lighter bowsprit in my old 29er top mast section and due to the gaping hole in the front we cant do a proper conversion rather then a dodgy one.

Have you thought of using the top section of a sailboard mast for your bowsprit? Modern sailboard masts are carbon, light weight and two piece. If a mast is broken it's usually the bottom half around the boom / mast connection. This leaves a heap of useless top sections floating around. I've personally thrown two out over the years.

Just a thought,

Mex

[Liquid]

Have you thought of using the top section of a sailboard mast for your bowsprit? Modern sailboard masts are carbon, light weight and two piece. If a mast is broken it's usually the bottom half around the boom / mast connection. This leaves a heap of useless top sections floating around. I've personally thrown two out over the years.

Just a thought,

Mex

I've found several uses for widowed top sections myself! Current piece is my wetsuit hanging rod...