44 replies to this topic

[DMan]

Does the OEM spinnaker measure to the maximum size as stated in the class rules ?

[EWS]

I have not measured it but I believe it's fairly smaller than max size. The aftermarket kites trim a ton better with a larger (deep) groove and more speed. I don't know why the stock kites would not be near max size other than to save costs on material?

[mjakennedy]

I have not measured it but I believe it's fairly smaller than max size. The aftermarket kites trim a ton better with a larger (deep) groove and more speed. I don't know why the stock kites would not be near max size other than to save costs on material?

EWS - Are you stating the stock spinnaker or the aftermarket spinnaker is the larger one?
Anybody know by how much, is there not a Quanta sailmaker in this forum?

Do you know how the aftermarket is cut differently to the stock one

Mark

[EWS]

EWS - Are you stating the stock spinnaker or the aftermarket spinnaker is the larger one?
Anybody know by how much, is there not a Quanta sailmaker in this forum?

Do you know how the aftermarket is cut differently to the stock one

Mark

The aftermarket kites are larger to meet the OD ruling.........the OEM's are smaller for some reason by what appears to me a reasonably significant amount but a lot can be said about the distribution of area in the shape of the design

[boyscout]

When we made the Quantum Spinnaker we never looked at the "Stock" A-sail. We looked at the class rules and went from there. I just looked at the sail card from NP and it has the measurements at:
SLU 15.71m
SLE 13.00m
SMG 9.190m
SF 8.38m

The Quantum Sail is:
SLU: 15.69
SLE: 14.05
SMG: 8.39
SF: 8.39

So before everyone flies off of the handle bars let me explain the Quantum sizing. The shorter luff (10 cm) is so that the luff sets up better on the rig. We lengthened the leech to get sail area lower and this also makes the sail lead to the block better. And our mid girth is 100% of the foot to give the leech a fair curve.

All in all I don't think that the Aftermarket sails are larger... but have the area distributed evenly down the sail instead of top loading the sail giving the illusion that it is bigger.

[Clewless]

I truly believe Bob Pattision may have made a mistake with the IMS/IRC forms. This may explain the less than reasonable ratings.

The SMG of the OEM kite cannot be 9.190m. The Class rules (as written by BP) limits it to 8.46m.

I think there may have been confusion of SMW vs SMG.

SMW (IMS-819) is defined as the "longest perpendicular to the luff" - this was used up till 2001

SMG (IMS-822) is defined as the "between midpoints of luff & leech"

I'll let you sailmakers figure it out....

Clew

[b_pattison]

Everyone is a sailmaker today....<grin>

Actually, the rule limits the mid-girth and the foot girth..there is no "max" girth. No mistake made.

1.5.2. Dimensions shall not exceed:
Luff Maximum (s)—15750mm
Luff Minimum (s)— 15100mm
Maximum Half Girth—8460mm
Minimum Girth—8160m
Maximum Foot Girth—8400mm
Minimum Foot Girth—8100mm
Centerline length —16400mm

This similar to the J-24 class spinnaker rule...it's self regulating because a sailmaker can only push the girth so much between the foot and the mid-girth and make it work without flapping like a big sheet.

The intent of our design and the rule was to promote a smooth even leech profile, which it does. So, yes, our kite is much bigger between the foot-girth and the mid-girth.

I am happy to report that this helps to promote the fractinaltor vortexual inducements that reduce the overall vector like speed robbing snapalaculator effect found on asymmetrical spinnakers....

b

I truly believe Bob Pattision may have made a mistake with the IMS/IRC forms. This may explain the less than reasonable ratings.

The SMG of the OEM kite cannot be 9.190m. The Class rules (as written by BP) limits it to 8.46m.

I think there may have been confusion of SMW vs SMG.

SMW (IMS-819) is defined as the "longest perpendicular to the luff" - this was used up till 2001

SMG (IMS-822) is defined as the "between midpoints of luff & leech"

I'll let you sailmakers figure it out....

Clew

[Clewless]

Last time I checked 9.190m (on IMS form) is over 8460mm (per class rules).

(I do not know who put down 9.190m on the IMS/IRC forms...but that sounds way off to me)

Clew

[windwagon]

"I am happy to report that this helps to promote the fractinaltor vortexual inducements that reduce the overall vector like speed robbing snapalaculator effect found on asymmetrical spinnakers...."

I've been pointing this out to my crew for months and nobody would listen- thanks Bob for helping to clarify the matter and adding credence to my argument!

[Ship o' Fools]

According to the Hiptrader web site, the size of the spin is 106.8 sq meters (FT10 specs http://www.hiptrader...fications12.pdf and merchandise http://shophiptrader.com/main.shtml)

According to the Quantum web site the Quantum R2 spin was built to class max size and is 116.9 sq. meters http://www.quantumsa...spx?product=518 and the R1 is 107.54 sq. meters.

The Quantum R2 is 10 sq. meters or about 10% bigger than the OEM spin.

[DMan]

If you are racing a Tiger PHRF and you use an aftermarket spinnaker that's 10 sq. meters larger, how much of a rating hit do you get.

[TheBoathouse]

If you are racing a Tiger PHRF and you use an aftermarket spinnaker that's 10 sq. meters larger, how much of a rating hit do you get.

Why would you take a rating hit it is measured as class legal...rating isn't based on OEM sail measurements it's based on published class sail measurements..

[sailsd]

It seems interesting that that quite a few boats were built and delivered with the OE sails and THEN the class rules evolved. How did the class rules end up with a sail that is 10% bigger? (Not that I don't like more sail area. Just don't see how you can blame NP or the builder for not knowing what you wanted!) BTW Everyone talks about the "Class Rules". Aren't these the "proposed" Class rules until they are voted in?

[Clewless]

Wait a minute.

The numbers (except for the #4) used in the class rules were provided by HT & BP. The class just complied with the OEM measurements for jib, main & kite.
If there is a difference in sail area (BTW sail area measurements can be all over the map depends on who made them and how the calculated), it is attributed to sail design since both fit under the measurements.

Clew

[altered ego]

The Quantum Sail is:

SLU: 15.69
SLE: 14.05
SMG: 8.39
SF: 8.39

let's see, a couple of popular formulas:

(15.69 + 14.05)/2 * 8.39 *.83(old school coefficient)= 103
((15.69+14.05)* 8.39/4) + ((8.39-(8.39/2)*(15.69+14.05)/3) = 104
(((15.69+14.05)*(8.39+(4*8.39)))/12 = 104

NP sail is:

SLU 15.71m
SLE 13.00m
SMG 9.190m
SF 8.38m

(15.71 + 13.00)/2 * 9.19 *.83(old school coefficient)= 109
((15.71+13.00)* 8.38/4) + ((9.19-(8.38/2)*(15.71+13.00)/3) = 108
(((15.71+13.00)*(8.38+(4*9.19)))/12 = 108

The competitors can decide which sail is faster, but the Q class asym is not bigger than NP's, at least according to some popular measurement rules

[sailsd]

That looks really great but as pointed out in post #8 the NP SMG of 9.19 is in error. The actual number is probably less than the 8.39 of the Quantum sail.

[Clewless]

Can someone measure the damned thing and get it over with? If that number is off, it is messing up the ratings in Europe.

Clew

[poncho]

I have a Q sail on the shelf,
If someone wants to bring in a red one, we can measure together, after Enchelada race.
P

[b_pattison]

All,
Just to clarify (and this isn't to say it's faster, bigger, lighter, stronger, more expensive, or prettier. Just forget all the b.s.).

SMG is MAX Girth and not Spinnaker Half width (SHW). MAX width is NOT governed under the FT10 rule. There are only Spinnaker HALF GIRTH and HALF FOOT measurements. I've listed all the measurement points below. Again.

The NP Spinnaker is at MAX Half Width and at max foot. (give or take how hard you pull and how old it is...)

HOWEVER, THE SAIL IS 9.19 AT IT'S MAX WIDTH, which is some % of the way between the HALF FOOT and the HALF WIDTH measurements points.

So, if you live someplace that has a rule that measures the max width, then to be legal you have to list the 9.19, which we have done. The sail cards are only intended for those that sail NON-Class or in countries other than the USA which have never heard of PHRF.

The other thing I'd like to mention about sails is that their 'depth' or how 'flat' they are has nothing to do with how 'big' they are. You can have two jibs that have the same mid-girths, luff, leech and foot and be VERY different sails. This is why classes such as the X-41 or E-22 have 'light' and 'heavy' jibs. Same size...different cut. This is true of spinnakers as well.

I hope this clears things up?

bp

The rule is:
1.5.2. Dimensions shall not exceed:
Luff Maximum (s)—15750mm
Luff Minimum (s)— 15100mm
Maximum Half Girth—8460mm
Minimum Girth—8160m
Maximum Foot Girth—8400mm
Minimum Foot Girth—8100mm
Centerline length —16400mm

That looks really great but as pointed out in post #8 the NP SMG of 9.19 is in error. The actual number is probably less than the 8.39 of the Quantum sail.

[Clewless]

Nope....please read my e-mail regarding SMG per IMS definition.

Clew

[Christian]

All,
Just to clarify (and this isn't to say it's faster, bigger, lighter, stronger, more expensive, or prettier. Just forget all the b.s.).

SMG is MAX Girth and not Spinnaker Half width (SHW). MAX width is NOT governed under the FT10 rule. There are only Spinnaker HALF GIRTH and HALF FOOT measurements. I've listed all the measurement points below. Again.

The NP Spinnaker is at MAX Half Width and at max foot. (give or take how hard you pull and how old it is...)

HOWEVER, THE SAIL IS 9.19 AT IT'S MAX WIDTH, which is some % of the way between the HALF FOOT and the HALF WIDTH measurements points.

So, if you live someplace that has a rule that measures the max width, then to be legal you have to list the 9.19, which we have done. The sail cards are only intended for those that sail NON-Class or in countries other than the USA which have never heard of PHRF.

The other thing I'd like to mention about sails is that their 'depth' or how 'flat' they are has nothing to do with how 'big' they are. You can have two jibs that have the same mid-girths, luff, leech and foot and be VERY different sails. This is why classes such as the X-41 or E-22 have 'light' and 'heavy' jibs. Same size...different cut. This is true of spinnakers as well.

I hope this clears things up?

bp

The rule is:
1.5.2. Dimensions shall not exceed:
Luff Maximum (s)—15750mm
Luff Minimum (s)— 15100mm
Maximum Half Girth—8460mm
Minimum Girth—8160m
Maximum Foot Girth—8400mm
Minimum Foot Girth—8100mm
Centerline length —16400mm

Are you sure?

SMG is most often defined as Spinnaker Mid Girth and is the distance between the mid-luff and mid-leech points for both syms and asyms. This is the way it is done in IMS, PHRF and IRC (although IRC calls it SHW for spinnaker half width). Where are you getting your definition from? If it is just your way of epressing max girth may I suggest you stop calling it SMG as it will most certainly confuse people.

[akaGP]

Are you sure?

SMG is most often defined as Spinnaker Mid Girth and is the distance between the mid-luff and mid-leech points for both syms and asyms. This is the way it is done in IMS, PHRF and IRC (although IRC calls it SHW for spinnaker half width). Where are you getting your definition from? If it is just your way of epressing max girth may I suggest you stop calling it SMG as it will most certainly confuse people.

From J-35 Class Rules:

SPINNAKERS

Spinnaker Maximum Girth / SMG

SMG shall be the maximum width, whether at the foot or across the main body of the sail ...

... This measurement is the shortest path on the surface of the sail.

[Clewless]

The issue is BP filled in the SMG number on an IMS app and that to IMS that means Spinnaker Mid Girth, not Max girth. Just look it up in the IMS rule book, section 822 (2001 version). They now call it AMG (Asym Mid Girth) in the latest version. So the J35 definition is not relevant.

Clew

[bob_pattison]

Clew,
My point is that it doesn't matter for the class kite. The rule as written calls out the half girth, not the max girth.

The IMS / IOR forms that we provide with the sails was done as a courtesy, so that non class sail owners could let their respective rules and regions deal with it. NP shouldn't nor do I have the time to make forms for every sail measurement rule out there, heck, we don't even measure Asym kites the same way in this country class to class, region to region, not to mention say, the Danish Handicap Rule. And as it has been pointed out here, the definitions of the measurement points even different from rule to rule, class to class.

In hindsight we probably should not provide these forms, thus forcing individuals to have their sails measured for their particular class.

Regardless though, the fact is that our class kite is 9.19m wide at it's widest and 8.4 and change at the half-height, this isn't going to change.
If your local handicapper doesn't or does need to know this I can't know.

And more importantly, if this has caused some hassle or rating fiasco on your end, I apologize...this was not our intent...just the opposite.

I'm not sure about your PHRF region (I haven't lived there in a long, long time) but here they measure the max girth (just like the old IOR kites) and you can't exceed this. So generally, if you have an asym based on a specific % of JC in LIS, either the mid-girth is a bit narrow or the leeches a bit 'bell shaped' or it is short on the foot...either way it's all done to accommodate the rule.
On the other hand the Kite and rule for the FT10 is designed to get away from all this manipulation and just provide a straight forward way to make nice smooth kites.

bp

The issue is BP filled in the SMG number on an IMS app and that to IMS that means Spinnaker Mid Girth, not Max girth. Just look it up in the IMS rule book, section 822 (2001 version). They now call it AMG (Asym Mid Girth) in the latest version. So the J35 definition is not relevant.

Clew

[Clewless]

I agree about that part -- the guys in Europe, please go get your sails measured.

Clew

[Christian]

Clew,
My point is that it doesn't matter for the class kite. The rule as written calls out the half girth, not the max girth.

The IMS / IOR forms that we provide with the sails was done as a courtesy, so that non class sail owners could let their respective rules and regions deal with it. NP shouldn't nor do I have the time to make forms for every sail measurement rule out there, heck, we don't even measure Asym kites the same way in this country class to class, region to region, not to mention say, the Danish Handicap Rule. And as it has been pointed out here, the definitions of the measurement points even different from rule to rule, class to class.

In hindsight we probably should not provide these forms, thus forcing individuals to have their sails measured for their particular class.

Regardless though, the fact is that our class kite is 9.19m wide at it's widest and 8.4 and change at the half-height, this isn't going to change.
If your local handicapper doesn't or does need to know this I can't know.

And more importantly, if this has caused some hassle or rating fiasco on your end, I apologize...this was not our intent...just the opposite.

I'm not sure about your PHRF region (I haven't lived there in a long, long time) but here they measure the max girth (just like the old IOR kites) and you can't exceed this. So generally, if you have an asym based on a specific % of JC in LIS, either the mid-girth is a bit narrow or the leeches a bit 'bell shaped' or it is short on the foot...either way it's all done to accommodate the rule.
On the other hand the Kite and rule for the FT10 is designed to get away from all this manipulation and just provide a straight forward way to make nice smooth kites.

bp

Actually - YRALIS (western LIS) only use the max girth for symmetrical spinnakers - and call it SMW - they use Spin Mid Girth for asyms and call it SMG

ECSA (Eastern LIS) uses the same measurements but call them G (Girth) and AMG Asym Mid Girth)

[Christian]

From J-35 Class Rules:

SPINNAKERS

Spinnaker Maximum Girth / SMG

SMG shall be the maximum width, whether at the foot or across the main body of the sail ...

... This measurement is the shortest path on the surface of the sail.

That's pretty irrelevant - last time i checked J35's in OD trim are not allowed to use asyms, which is what this discussion is about..................

[teener]

That's pretty funny, sombody can't seem to get the acronym for SMG right. Let's all agree that we are talking about Mid and not Max.

[akaGP]

That's pretty funny, sombody can't seem to get the acronym for SMG right. Let's all agree that we are talking about Mid and not Max.

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

[porttack]

I would like to propose that the one design flying tiger 10 asym spin be defined as follows in the FT 10 rules. Large fucking sail that makes the boat go really fucking fast downwind or if you wish to use a 'initialism' LFSTMTBGRFFD. Do I here a second?

[teener]

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

SMG is a acronym commonly used for Spinnaker Mid Girth, in PHRF circles amongst others, and to a select few J-boat sailors SMG is an acronym for Spinnaker Max Girth.

Because you are having difficulty understanding what an acronym is, I refer you to a brief definition:
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/acronym

Of course, PHRF is an acronym for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet.

[akaGP]

That's pretty funny, sombody can't seem to get the acronym for SMG right. Let's all agree that we are talking about Mid and not Max.

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

SMG is a acronym commonly used for Spinnaker Mid Girth, in PHRF circles amongst others, and to a select few J-boat sailors SMG is an acronym for Spinnaker Max Girth.

Because you are having difficulty understanding what an acronym is, I refer you to a brief definition:
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/acronym

Of course, PHRF is an acronym for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet.

For "somebody" who either slept or daydreamed during High School English Language class, here is all that you need to learn about the difference between 'acronyms' and 'initialisms'. Here is all that you need to learn about 'abbreviations'.

That should cover those particular gaps in your understanding of the English Language.

[teener]

Ah yes, Wikipedia, the complete source of all wisdom in the universe. According to your restrictive definition TLA is not a three letter acronym. The lanugage is evolving, please try to keep up.

[sailsd]

Forget about TLA. Some should look up PITA.

[teener]

Forget about TLA. Some should look up PITA.

LOL!

[TheBoathouse]

Ah yes, Wikipedia, the complete source of all wisdom in the universe. According to your restrictive definition TLA is not a three letter acronym. The lanugage is evolving, please try to keep up.

Evolving and AKGP = Oximoron A 60 year old that wears a meatloaf style rat-tail is done evolving....(now wait for him to post the pic of me in a collision at 2004 KWRW, guaranteed)

[Christian]

Evolving and AKGP = Oximoron A 60 year old that wears a meatloaf style rat-tail is done evolving....(now wait for him to post the pic of me in a collision at 2004 KWRW, guaranteed)

Yeah - you are never going to live that one down

[Christian]

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

SMG is a acronym commonly used for Spinnaker Mid Girth, in PHRF circles amongst others, and to a select few J-boat sailors SMG is an acronym for Spinnaker Max Girth.

Because you are having difficulty understanding what an acronym is, I refer you to a brief definition:
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/acronym

Of course, PHRF is an acronym for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet.

For "somebody" who either slept or daydreamed during High School English Language class, here is all that you need to learn about the difference between 'acronyms' and 'initialisms'. Here is all that you need to learn about 'abbreviations'.

That should cover those particular gaps in your understanding of the English Language.

George - would you PLEASE get back on your meds

[akaGP]

George - would you PLEASE get back on your meds

Is that the best shot that you got?

....(now wait for him to post the pic of me in a collision at 2004 KWRW, guaranteed)

Not to worry, Foxy.

There is no need to post your lame excuses for, and photographs of skewering another J/105 with your prod at KWRW; now that you are providing us with more current and far better entertainment from every regatta in which you attempt to race your FT10.

[MOBETTER]

Moving past the fun part of the post..... I hope you guys don't carry guns.... in Texas we would have already called you out to settle the matter and cleaned up the forum...... you guys are better then comedy central.... but a bit more predictable.

Real question:
Is the measurement method for the Np kite at 107 and the Q at 117 measured in the same method?
I am assuming that the Q kite measured in for the SD Fleet, correct?

Having fun with the Tiger.... head to Dallas next weekend for our first meeting with another Tiger... see if we can do some good marketing for Bill and the boys.

Mo

[EWS]

Correct MO,

We've implimented the sail purchase limits and have been tagging / stamping the sails starting for the SD NOOD's. Only those that measure in are stamped. A little knife here and there I think everyone ended up measuring in just fine.

[Skeletor]

That's pretty funny, sombody can't seem to get the acronym for SMG right. Let's all agree that we are talking about Mid and not Max.

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

SMG is a acronym commonly used for Spinnaker Mid Girth, in PHRF circles amongst others, and to a select few J-boat sailors SMG is an acronym for Spinnaker Max Girth.

Because you are having difficulty understanding what an acronym is, I refer you to a brief definition:
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/acronym

Of course, PHRF is an acronym for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet.

For "somebody" who either slept or daydreamed during High School English Language class, here is all that you need to learn about the difference between 'acronyms' and 'initialisms'. Here is all that you need to learn about 'abbreviations'.

That should cover those particular gaps in your understanding of the English Language.

Before you become so smug, I suggest you pick up an actual dictionary. Wikipedia is only as good as its cites. If you go further to look up the cited definition of acronym, you would see that all of the dictionaries would define SMG as an acronym. You would have also read that abbreviations and initialisms are types of acronyms.

In fear of what this might say about me, why would you be so venomous and rude about such a minor issue? Does making comments like this make you feel better about yourself? Possibly, you're a frustrated english teacher.

Sail more, bitch less.

[Ship o' Fools]

That's pretty funny, sombody can't seem to get the acronym for SMG right. Let's all agree that we are talking about Mid and not Max.

"That's pretty funny"!

* You "can't seem to get the" correct meaning of "acronym".
* There is no "acronym for SMG".
* If SMG is an 'abbreviation' for Spinnaker Mid Girth, then SMG would be an 'initialism' instead of an "acronym" (as you erroneously claim).

Since SMG is no longer used by ORR and IRC to define either symmetric or asymmetric spinnaker dimension, it would be best to replace it in the Proposed FT10M Class Sail Rules.

In fact, we should consider updating all of the Proposed FT10 Class Sail Rules to be consistent with ORR & IRC SAIL MEASUREMENT RULES.

SMG is a acronym commonly used for Spinnaker Mid Girth, in PHRF circles amongst others, and to a select few J-boat sailors SMG is an acronym for Spinnaker Max Girth.

Because you are having difficulty understanding what an acronym is, I refer you to a brief definition:
http://www.thefreedi...ary.com/acronym

Of course, PHRF is an acronym for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet.

For "somebody" who either slept or daydreamed during High School English Language class, here is all that you need to learn about the difference between 'acronyms' and 'initialisms'. Here is all that you need to learn about 'abbreviations'.

That should cover those particular gaps in your understanding of the English Language.

Before you become so smug, I suggest you pick up an actual dictionary. Wikipedia is only as good as its cites. If you go further to look up the cited definition of acronym, you would see that all of the dictionaries would define SMG as an acronym. You would have also read that abbreviations and initialisms are types of acronyms.

In fear of what this might say about me, why would you be so venomous and rude about such a minor issue? Does making comments like this make you feel better about yourself? Possibly, you're a frustrated english teacher.

Sail more, bitch less.

Bored today?

[Jetsam]

I was just reading a thread on some website about how some one design class had trouble getting new owners interested in taking introductory sails with them and racing against them and meeting with them to discuss class issues and sharing ideas with them, etc. Anyone know where that was?

[DMan]

Ahh... those were the good old days.
Funny thing is, I was hoping for a yes/no answer and a brief explanation.