Would the 18' skiff survive ? Options

[Patrick C.]

During my gardening session of the week-end, I started to ask myself about the future of the 18' skiff... no question of one design or whatever, just a simple question came to my mind : would the 18' survive during the next years ? Here are some points of my thinking and perhaps some point to start a discussion.

The 18' is an expensive boat. Today a ready to sail boat is costing around 90'000 AUD and then you will need to replace the 2 set of sails on a regular basis (let say each 2 years). A set of sails is about 8000 AUD ... then you have to add some $$ for replacing broken stuffs, rope, blocks ... making a nice yearly bill at the end. Hopefully the latest hull will length longer that the previous one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This bring me to the fact that, for a team with a normal revenue, the only way to sail an 18' is to find sponsors. In Australia, the rule of the game are a little bit different, with the Double Bay clube (the League) offering "for free" boats to the teams, with the money coming out from the gambling machine of the club's casino. During the last year, the League was selling its "old" boats to Europe, US and NZ for about 40-50% of the price of a new boat, offering a good cheaper solution to start in the class, but even with that, sponsors were requiered to keep the boat up to date. Today, nobody could say until when the League will be able to offer these boats (the law about gambling has changed in Australian and the income from gambling machine has droped).

If finding a sponsor for these boats was quite easy in the 90s, when sailing such boats was really new and unusual, bringing a lot of media coverage, it is now much more difficult. In Europe, there was 2 circuit where everything was offer to the sailors (the SLAM GP and the Skiff Pro Tour). Today, the top teams can manage to find some money, but for the other, it is really hard.

The fact is that, today, the 18' is not the only specatular boat, the speed difference with other boats are not so much anymore (thinking to moth or ...) and this make the visibility of the 18' in the media decreasing, and then the class less attractive for the sponsors. Sponsors are looking for spectacular stuffs and high media coverage : look how much media coverage T. Jundt got when foiling his 18' ! I'm not sure he's faster, but this is more spectacular and unusual. Thomas easily found some sponsors and now, even find one to build a completely new boat.

It will perhaps even become worst if the 18' start to be slower than another boat ... ask an 18' sailor which speed data he put in his press book for sponsors : data from the GP time ...

That's it so now, I ask the question again : Will the 18' skiff survive ? or will the 18' survive without a major evolution ?

[Doug Culnane]

The 18 racing videos are still great to watch. Compare them to AC yachts or Olyimpic racing and they are still in a different leage in terms of spectator apeal.

I hope they survive as they are a much better spectator representaion of the hi performance end of our sport than anything else I have seen but I do not have a TV, so I may be out of touch.

[foilr]

Will the 18' skiff survive ? or will the 18' survive without a major evolution ?

Yes.

[DougLord(TM)]

Not if it doesn't start foiling.

[Phil S]

The 18s will survive because they are iconic. But things like how they are paid for, will have to change.

As stated they are propped up by gambling revenue from only one venue, which happens to be in one of Australia's richest areas, so maybe that revenue will be sustained even with law changes. But the culture of sailors getting good free sailing on the back of ripping money out of suckers is a bit dubious. As well I can not see the sponsors getting commercial value to the full cost of these boats with the possible exception of only one or two star boats. They do have a few benevolent sponsors who just love the boats. So will the sailors have to pay their way? Not the current group anyway.

In parallel we in NSW also have 16ft skiffs which have always been a much bigger class than the 18s with a lot of clubs again with pokie machines funding free sailing. This class is shrinking, there are now two big clubs and maybe 4 or 5 smaller ones which are struggling financially, not offering the deals and money to sailors and consequently losing their fleet sizes. These clubs are not all in affluent suburbs and pokie revenue has plumetted. The class is changing as a result.

Consequently the spread of 16s is shrinking and they are more likely under threat than the 18s. But it is an indicator of iminent change.

[ntman]

doug you have no idea about skiff sailing in aus. the 18's have been around for more than a century and they will be around for a very long time to come.

[Doug Lord]

doug you have no idea about skiff sailing in aus. the 18's have been around for more than a century and they will be around for a very long time to come.

-------------------------
My mirror image has already spoken quite eloquently(for one so ignorant) but I think the new "18" foiler about to be unveiled by Thomas Jundt-skinny hull similar to a Moth- with extraordinary ratios(almost identical to a Moth) will revolutionize 18 sailing and/ or spark a whole new much faster and more spectacular 18 class bringing the 18 back to its place as the fastest BOAT under 20'. Yes, it is a damn revolution-get used to it!

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[Obsessed]

Foiling would ruin these boats and make it even more of a crash and burn sport than it used to be. In the 90's the boats got really wide and tacking became more hazardous therefore the boats would just bang the corners and you wouldnt get tacking duels which is what is great about AC. - read Adrainne Cahlan's book around the buoys (shit book but good run down of the 18's in thre 90's).

The current boats are not as wide and they have tactical beats.

As for the sponsorship I think that if they can maintain TV coverage then it should all be sweet (Adelaide showed couple of races ~11am Saturday channel 7). One probelm is the way that the sydney hobart tv coverage has gone and that it focusing on the lead boats only. Yes thats great for those sponsors but a bit of coverage of the middle fleet boats would result in those sponsors getting enough Tv coverage to make sponsorship appealing for those companies.

[XPAT]

sponsopship in dinghy sailing is a difficult topic because i dont think sponsors ever really get any value from it. Most dinghy sponsorship is the result of an individual at the company having an interest in sailing and hence wanting to support it. Dinghy has very low media coverage outside of the sailing community and as such low audience in terms of value for marketing $$$$.

Therefore if 18 sailing is to rely on sponsorship to survive i dont think in the long term it will. However i think 18 sailing will continue without huge sponsorship deals. Look at the UK the money from sponsors i relatively low and yet the fleet keeps going (even if it is a relatively small fleet by AUS standards).

[Diver Dan]

18s have been around for a long, long time and they will be around for a lot longer than any of us.

As for Doug....I guess you have never sailed an 18 in 20+ knots with big swell. You really have no idea what you are talking about......

[DougLord(TM)]

You have no idea what you speak of. Foling is the revolution™. Bring on the people's foiling 18 ™.

[DougLord(TM)]

I am one sexy bitch!

[Diver Dan]

I am one sexy bitch!

Freak and strange come to mind....................................

[Revelations]

18s have been around for a long, long time and they will be around for a lot longer than any of us.

As for Doug....I guess you have never sailed an 18 in 20+ knots with big swell. You really have no idea what you are talking about......

According to doug, the 18 is coming 2nd as the fastest skiff under 20ft even in 18knts and BIG swell.

back on the topic. I used to love watching the 18's on the weekend on tv, even when they used to "bleep" out the language used. This was before I stepped foot on a boat.

You didn't have to be a sailing fan to appreciate the boats they are. Like anything, the more expensive these sports become the more exposure they need to keep the cash generated for the up keep.

I heared the 18's were on the box last Saturday, I hope it becomes a regular thing, but Sunday would be better as I sail on Saturday.

[FoilerMothGuy]

Freak and strange come to mind....................................

irrefutable evidence that doug really does have split personalities......

[sailingkid]

Doug is gunna have so many bragging rights if foiling 18s take off... I wonder if that american sailing luege (dunno how to spell it) will last long? I hope it does, the they make an Aussie sailing luege to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SimonN]

Even without foiling, the 18's will survive! The real issue that Patrick raises is the disparity between the 18's in Oz and the rest of the world. I have little doubt that despite a big drop off in "pokie" (slot machine) revenues, the League will keep going from strength to strength. A lot of that is down to the hard work of a few, not least Woody.

Just a couple of points. Contrary to popular belief, not all people at the League sail for free. In fact, there are a fair number that I know of who last season used their own money to fund their sailing. At least one person "co-sponsored" his boat and I know people who bought new masts and sails themselves. I suspect we will see more of that as well. For instance, last year we bought a new No1 kite and when somebody else asked why we got gear and they didn't, I explained that it was my own money. They then said that they wished they had thought of doing the same!

However, the bottom line is that 18's are a very expensive class and there aren't the big money sposors around like was seen in the past. I don't think we will see that sort of era again. The league ahs some good sponsors who will stay with the class but each year they still have to find new money. I think that last year 2 new sponsors were found. It is interesting to note that some of the league sponsors really do get very involved with the whole scene. One of the sponsors laid on a day of corporate hospitality for it's clients, based around the 18's, that saw clients being taken out for rides in the 18's. On other occasions, the ferry boat has been packed with sponsors and clients, who also use the club for meals and the like to enhance the whole experience. These sponsors really do feel involved and that they get something out of it.

It would be hard to replicate that in europe. The sponsors are paying not only for the publicity but for the involvement. When you see a load of people being entertained by Smeg, all having a meal after the racing, and hearing them cheer at the prize giving, you realise how important it ios to get the sponsors totally involved. The sponsor of Kinder Caring is there almost every race and loves the whole experience. So, to me, the leason is that one should think outside the box - spionsorship doesn't need to be about getting publicity.

For the 18's to survive, they do need to eveolve but not in the sense of the boats. There needs to be better and more imaginative ideas for getting sponsors invlved and keeping their interest. making the boats more exciting, faster or more televisual won't help.

The other problem is harder to solve. A lack of second hand boats doesn't help the class expand and the newer boats seem to be lasting longer, meaning the League aren't building as many as they were. Some of it is also because of having less money from the pokies. However, it does mean that a supply of second hand boats has dried up. The other issue is that having recently done the sums myself, I think it is probably cheaper to get a new hull and transfer over rigs and other equipment, rather than having everything new and selling the old boat off. Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to this problem.

[Patrick C.]

I think you tackle the right points Simon ... the australian model is not really replicable in Europe. We had something similar during the Skiff Pro Tour years, but it was not sustainable.

We will have again a mould in Europe for building new boat, but even if we know that we could build the hull for less than in Oz, it will still remain expensive ...

=> this is exactly when I started to ask myself the question of this topic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


NB: It was not a pro/con foil topic. I just mentioned it to explain my thinking

[scooby_simon]

If Doug Lord leaves them alone they will be fine.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

90k for a boat is expensive as with the associated running costs....... Howevere, if necessary, split 3 ways between 3 committed crew and it is still very doable. Personal sponnsors can also be sought to help offset the expenses.

[Doug Culnane]

These things are awsome to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxRgaJJ86_8

Someone just needs the vision to make it work and the Aussie 18ft league seam to be the guys that have done that. Unfortunately IASF who have the resouses for such specticals are really more interested in Finns! This I find this so outragous and short sighted. So lets ignore the Olympics (except the one hi performance class maybe) and lets make the real hi-performacne sailing events where it is at. If we stop consuming shit maybe we will make it easier for someone with real content to capture the audiance. Or maybe the bordom around Olyimpic sailing will put everyone off sailing coverage.

Making the 18ft skiffs more affordable would of course help to get a amature fleet established which I suspect you need to support and develop a Pro fleet. However banning carbon and initiatives like that do not really help in my opinion. Reducing travel makes things a lot cheaper. It is easy to caluclate the cost of a boat but the cost of a circuit campain including travel must be horrendous. Reducing the number of rigs would help too, but how can you do this without compromising the boats.

If I was a Media Mogal I would pick somewhere like Garda in Italy and set up a fleet there. I would get a TV companies on board and have loads of Internet coverage on my site to suck in all the bored sailors at work. Head cams with swearring and shouting. Website subcription to members only extra content. Spectator boats and a beach party. Sponsership and boat ownership would be centralised so that sailors do not have to waste time doing what they are not always good at and negosiate with sponsers all the time. Feed the press with media releases to get the sponsors good value for money. Have a ride experiance days for coropate days out and ritch thrill seackers. A big yearly event where it is Nothern fleet verses Southen fleet, like a battle of the hemiphierars.... and then sell the whole circus for a huge profit before it all goes bust... ;-)

[skiffs r us]

Great idea!grand prix sailing has a nice ring to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Doug Culnane]

Great idea!grand prix sailing has a nice ring to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Not sure if you are taking the piss because this has been done before, but it has been done before in Autrailia called the Grand Prix I think. I think we need a history lesson from some Aussie Skif sailors about why this worked or did not work out long term...?

[skiffs r us]

Yes,sorry i was.As for a history lesson,i shall wait now for the baron or his new alter ego to give you that he is the lord of the 18s.

[Doug Culnane]

From some other threads it look like the 16ft skiffs also has bussininess model issues to work out.

What amazes me is how the AC can generate so much cash and there are no shortage of teams ready to take part. AC yachts are no where near as dynamic to watch as 18s in my opinion. The AC management is terible allowing the distrcutive court battles so who can they do it and hi-performance dinghies can not. ISAF have a change to put on an awsome sailing event but they wasted the chance again.

There was also the Ultra 30s in the UK which looked good for a while but that faded out. However again I do not know the histroy behind that.

Surely it can not be that hard, or are we better off haveing fun with our affordable hi-performance toys and without the hype of Grand Prix circusses?