Would the 18' skiff survive ? Options

[TeamFugu]

Good thing spelling isn't a pre-requisite of sailing 18's (or I'd be screwed as well!). Welcome to the fleet.

I thought spelling was way down the list of what you want in a forehand. He might be a candidate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[skiffe]

the only fleets that seem to survive off their own bat (if you'll excuse the choice of words) are the 12s & 14s.

I guess the question really is; what would happen to the 18s if the league & woody weren't around? me, i reckon the class would slowly fold. as far as one might point fingers at the guys there for the way the control matters and run the class, it has kept the 18s pretty active and vibrant in sydney.

imho the class is dependant upon third party funding, no matter whether its from the league's pokie and restaraunt revenue, or sponsors, or an alternate source. if the bucks aren't there the class will fold.

There are sponsors for 12s around, it just takes a bit of looking and then looking after them.

[GybeSet®]

The 18' is an expensive boat. Today a ready to sail boat is costing around 90'000 AUD and then you will need to replace the 2 set of sails on a regular basis (let say each 2 years). A set of sails is about 8000 AUD ...?

seen the turnkey price of an FD, 5o5, Tornado, E-scow or I-14 lately

post those prices, and ask the question

[adams-m]

Anyone seen any pics from the 18' Interdoms over the weekend?? We were there racing an old boat and I know there are some pictures around, but I haven't managed to find any...

[Al.]

Six 18s out with the fledgling 12ft fleet at Rutland in the UK over the weekened- good photos here. All boats reliant on private (ie not through a club) sponsership/personal funding, and no prize money as far as I know. No TV cameras either. A different world entirely to the Aussie model.

[SimonN]

Six 18s out with the fledgling 12ft fleet at Rutland in the UK over the weekened- good photos here. All boats reliant on private (ie not through a club) sponsership/personal funding, and no prize money as far as I know. No TV cameras either. A different world entirely to the Aussie model.

I spent a few hours with Woody yesterday and then some time speaking to various skippers which has led me to respond to this and, in particular, the bit highlighted. I am no longer sure that it is that different.

I had always believed that the club sorted out most of the sponsors and dished out the boats to the lucky crews. However, I now understand that while there are long standing sponsors, increasingly it is the crews who are sorting out sponsors. If you look at the front of the fleet, Fiat wasn't arranged by the club while Rag and Famish is personal to John Harris. Woody does help and has relationships with some of the sponsors. He was pleased that one long term sponsor whose skipper was stopping has been persuaded to keep going. However, Woody then told me that his sone, Herman, was hoping to get a new boat but had been told that he could only have one if he found a sponsor to pay the costs. When I asked how finding a sponsor was going, Woody said he didn't know as that was down to Herman.

In the same manner, I was speaking to an existing skipper about his plans for next year and he stated his biggest priority was to find a sponsor or else he would have no new gear. His gear is now 3 years old and it effectively means if he wants to stay competitive, he has to find a sponsor. I asked if teh club was helping and it was clear to me that it was totally down to the individual.

Woody also told me of a skipper who was "due" a new boat this year. the reason he was due a boat was that this skipper had a sponsor who constantly forked out and again, it was a sponsor personal to that skipper.

I have no idea how many sponsors are personal to the skippers and how many to the club. However, the position is changing and more and more of the sponsors are sorted by the skippers. I am lucky that I have managed to get a boat that already had some sponsorship, but I still had to find another sponsor who ended up paying 60% of the costs last year.

I accept that finding a sponsor in Australia might be easier than in Europe, but there isn't a line of sponsors waiting outside the League waiting for sailors to approach them! Even if you do have/find a sponsor, they aren't bottomless pits. For instance, last year I know of a number of boats whose crews paid for new masts as sponsors budgets were already fixed and allocated. In fact, I know of a number of people who make contributions to their own sailing, ranging from the highest I know, $15k, to some who paid around $5-7.5k. Again, I accept that Europeans pay a lot more, but it isn't the free ride everybody says it is.

Finally, the League doesn't sail for prize money either. I think there is some small amount for the JJ, but I know that one of the winning crew blew it on a good night out after the prize giving so it cannot have been that much!

All that said and done, I think everybody involved with sailing at the League knows how fortunate we are. Even if we are increasingly having to find money ourselves, without the infrastructure and teh history it would be so much harder. And, as has been said above, without Woody we would be on deep shit. The man is a true legend.

[eric e]

just a biased 5cents from a multi convert

as a noob with only 2 years sailing in a dingy i recently bought a very good condition, 17foot, 25 year old beach cat from a guy who was also selling a B14

the cat was a $1000 and the B14 $2000

i asked him which i should get considering i would sail solo 95% of the time and wanted to go fast

he said the cat.

his quote, "any fool can sail a cat fast, usually solo and then put 4 or 5 people when needed to go on a picnic tour. and at half the price you can't go wrong, not so the skiff

the recent videos of the 18foot skiffs, tornados and vx40 on sydney harbor are quite interesting. they show 3 crew working really hard on the super expensive skiffs struggling to keep up with the slightly more relaxed 2 man crews on the cheaper? tornados

sure the 18 foot skiffs look good in a blow and have a huge history but if they need sponsors to keep going and boats like the f18 cats need less crew, are as fast and cheaper then it's hard to see that the skiffs won't shrink somewhat unless they can control costs

tornados in auckland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjL64j5nit4

[Eclipse_Chris]

Anyone seen any pics from the 18' Interdoms over the weekend?? We were there racing an old boat and I know there are some pictures around, but I haven't managed to find any...

http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll184/e...02008/Mark%20G/

[TeamFugu]

eric e, you should also keep in mind that the three person crew on an 18 is not required by the platform but has been a class rule for some time. There was a move to reduce the crew weight and size years ago and a rule was put in place to make the minimum crew size three.

I agree with the person you bought your cat from. If you want to go very fast, with a low learning curve, and once in a while take the family for a spin, one of the best platforms is a cat. However, if you love a challenge and a boat that will always keep you engaged and on your toes, a skiff is a good option. Different strokes for different folks. Niether is good nor bad, they all have their place.

We'll probably see a shrinking of the 18's for a bit while the global economy cools but I think the'll be around for years in one form or another. I just hope they stay on the extreme end of things because we need something pushing the envelope to show us how far we can go.

[roblynn]

I agree with the person you bought your cat from. If you want to go very fast, with a low learning curve, and once in a while take the family for a spin, one of the best platforms is a cat. However, if you love a challenge and a boat that will always keep you engaged and on your toes, a skiff is a good option. Different strokes for different folks. Niether is good nor bad, they all have their place.

I second this. I have both (a mystère 5.0 cat and a 29er-solo). With the water at 10C today (the lake has been open for 8 days now), I took out the M5.0 this morning an whipped around without getting wet -- which is quite impossible when soloing the 29er. So the answer to the conundrum is to have one of each...

Robert B.

[TeamFugu]

I second this. I have both (a mystère 5.0 cat and a 29er-solo). With the water at 10C today (the lake has been open for 8 days now), I took out the M5.0 this morning an whipped around without getting wet -- which is quite impossible when soloing the 29er. So the answer to the conundrum is to have one of each...

Robert B.

Actually, you need one of every type. So far, I'm short a foiler but then I rarely sail in winds that would allow a Moth to lift be free of the water. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Luke Piewalker]

Clearly you need to paint them all with flames... then sponsors would rush in from miles around...

[roblynn]

Actually, you need one of every type. So far, I'm short a foiler but then I rarely sail in winds that would allow a Moth to lift be free of the water. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Same here -- I expect that my vacuum beat yours :-) The big issue at my venue is that there is an infestation of eurasian milfoil so this would add an extra challenge to weave around the floating jetsam...

Robert B.

[ljf67]

I spent a few hours with Woody yesterday and then some time speaking to various skippers which has led me to respond to this and, in particular, the bit highlighted. I am no longer sure that it is that different.

I had always believed that the club sorted out most of the sponsors and dished out the boats to the lucky crews. However, I now understand that while there are long standing sponsors, increasingly it is the crews who are sorting out sponsors. If you look at the front of the fleet, Fiat wasn't arranged by the club while Rag and Famish is personal to John Harris. Woody does help and has relationships with some of the sponsors. He was pleased that one long term sponsor whose skipper was stopping has been persuaded to keep going. However, Woody then told me that his sone, Herman, was hoping to get a new boat but had been told that he could only have one if he found a sponsor to pay the costs. When I asked how finding a sponsor was going, Woody said he didn't know as that was down to Herman.

In the same manner, I was speaking to an existing skipper about his plans for next year and he stated his biggest priority was to find a sponsor or else he would have no new gear. His gear is now 3 years old and it effectively means if he wants to stay competitive, he has to find a sponsor. I asked if teh club was helping and it was clear to me that it was totally down to the individual.

Woody also told me of a skipper who was "due" a new boat this year. the reason he was due a boat was that this skipper had a sponsor who constantly forked out and again, it was a sponsor personal to that skipper.

I have no idea how many sponsors are personal to the skippers and how many to the club. However, the position is changing and more and more of the sponsors are sorted by the skippers. I am lucky that I have managed to get a boat that already had some sponsorship, but I still had to find another sponsor who ended up paying 60% of the costs last year.

I accept that finding a sponsor in Australia might be easier than in Europe, but there isn't a line of sponsors waiting outside the League waiting for sailors to approach them! Even if you do have/find a sponsor, they aren't bottomless pits. For instance, last year I know of a number of boats whose crews paid for new masts as sponsors budgets were already fixed and allocated. In fact, I know of a number of people who make contributions to their own sailing, ranging from the highest I know, $15k, to some who paid around $5-7.5k. Again, I accept that Europeans pay a lot more, but it isn't the free ride everybody says it is.

Finally, the League doesn't sail for prize money either. I think there is some small amount for the JJ, but I know that one of the winning crew blew it on a good night out after the prize giving so it cannot have been that much!

All that said and done, I think everybody involved with sailing at the League knows how fortunate we are. Even if we are increasingly having to find money ourselves, without the infrastructure and teh history it would be so much harder. And, as has been said above, without Woody we would be on deep shit. The man is a true legend.

From what i know thats the way its been at the League for many years since the first Mk1 Murrays mid 90s, like most things in the sailing world, the "story" about "free skiffs" is much more interesting than the true hard work done to gain a skiff sponsorship... and keep it
Dont think you will find any 18 sailors over the last 15 years that have made a profit from sponsors, but maybe a few broke ones
I have some ideas for the euro 18 guys to find sponsors... get off your ass and do the hard yards to find one, last time I looked the population in Oz was 25million, slightly less than the entire population in Europe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
If people can find over $100million for an Americas Cup campaign, surley its a lot easier to find $25K to help cover some costs of an 18
Or open your wallets like the rest of the sailing world

as for the cat comments, i can remeber seeing an old sign on a boat many years back "give up sailing, buy a catamaran" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

It amuses me how those who enjoy cat bashing have little or no cat sailing experience, particularly HP Cats.

Quiet a few of my freinds and I have taken Skiff, mono Olympians and AC sailors for runs on our F18s and Tornadoes and every one off them have stepped off week kneed and very impressed with the experience.

One SA member who was an 18 skiff sailor, I introduced to my Capricorn and he is now spending a lot of time now racing cats.

Perhaps some people here need to shut their mouth and actually gain a bit off experience before shooting their mouths off.

[SimonN]

It amuses me how those who enjoy cat bashing have little or no cat sailing experience, particularly HP Cats.

Quiet a few of my freinds and I have taken Skiff, mono Olympians and AC sailors for runs on our F18s and Tornadoes and every one off them have stepped off week kneed and very impressed with the experience.

One SA member who was an 18 skiff sailor, I introduced to my Capricorn and he is now spending a lot of time now racing cats.

Perhaps some people here need to shut their mouth and actually gain a bit off experience before shooting their mouths off.

While you are correct in what you say, you seem to have forgotten the main difference between the dedicated cat sailor and mono sailors. The cat sailor has had his sense of humour removed and takes it all to seriously. Cat sailors are so easy to wind up and that is what we see so regularly. For instance, if I say that 16'skiff sailors are all fishermen (obviously true (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ), they laugh and take the piss out of themselves. Tell a cat sailor he doesn't need tactical skills because the go so fast and you get a whole page of posting telling you why it isn't so.

Chill a little. Most people actually do know that a Tornado is exceptional etc. An dthose who don't understand probably aren't worth converting.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

You are right Simon; however a large majority of mono sailors actually believe this crap. What they see or experience on multihulls tends to be from hire cats, light wind cursing or a blast on a mate's Hobie 16...... And this becomes their perception of Multies. You, like myself are fortunate to have experienced it from both sides and understand the level of skill and athleticism involved at the top level in each fleet.

As for the tactical skills argument, unfortunately many mono sailors strongly believe this crap also and Skiffies are also tared with the same brush. If it does fast, it cannot be tactical..... I have seen just as many Skiffies (and wannabe Skiffies) fry up on this topic.

At the end of the day I don't really give a F#$K, because I love what I am doing.

Anyway, how about that 18 / F18 grudge match...... Keen to show a bit of muscle and hit the water (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Not 1 or 2 boats of each, but a fleet V's a fleet. Any interested takers at the League?

[F15 AUS]

You are right Simon; however a large majority of mono sailors actually believe this crap. What they see or experience on multihulls tends to be from hire cats, light wind cursing or a blast on a mate's Hobie 16...... And this becomes their perception of Multies. You, like myself are fortunate to have experienced it from both sides and understand the level of skill and athleticism involved at the top level in each fleet.

As for the tactical skills argument, unfortunately many mono sailors strongly believe this crap also and Skiffies are also tared with the same brush. If it does fast, it cannot be tactical..... I have seen just as many Skiffies (and wannabe Skiffies) fry up on this topic.

At the end of the day I don't really give a F#$K, because I love what I am doing.

Anyway, how about that 18 / F18 grudge match...... Keen to show a bit of muscle and hit the water (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Not 1 or 2 boats of each, but a fleet V's a fleet. Any interested takers at the League?

If none of the legue boats want to have a play, We could orginise somthing with the Brisbane 18's fleet. Would probably be easy pickings for the cats though

[ljf67]

It amuses me how those who enjoy cat bashing have little or no cat sailing experience, particularly HP Cats.

Quiet a few of my freinds and I have taken Skiff, mono Olympians and AC sailors for runs on our F18s and Tornadoes and every one off them have stepped off week kneed and very impressed with the experience.

One SA member who was an 18 skiff sailor, I introduced to my Capricorn and he is now spending a lot of time now racing cats.

Perhaps some people here need to shut their mouth and actually gain a bit off experience before shooting their mouths off.

Geez, u wake up on the wrong side of the bed buddy?
Its this thing called a joke
And I thought this topic was about the 18s surviving in the future
Perhaps some people need to see the lighter side of life, before shooting their mouths off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Yeah, bad day and no sleep = no sense of humour.

And F@#K you for quoting me........ Now I can not go back and delete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[Fast14]

Yes.

IT dosn't have to foil you have foiling on the Brain

[F15 AUS]

I dont think the class will fold if the sponsors dry up. There will still be boats sailing.

For example, the Brisbane 18 footer fleet had all but dissapered by 1990. Some people within the Brisbane club came up with an idia. There were allot of older boats sitting under houses from the pre / early wing era but before the Wing Wars boats.

Thay set up a class called the Classic 18's. You could sail an older hull up to 1983 vintage or build a new hull to the rules as set down by the club. An older hull could be of exotics but a new one could only be of ply or glass.

These boats are still sailing at the Brisbane club (6 boats in the fleet). The club has since bought two boats form the legue (Avaya and Total Recall) to try and re build the modern 18's in Brisbane.

Attached File(s)

 DSC_0375.JPG ( 437.82K ) Number of downloads: 29

 

[foilr]

IT dosn't have to foil you have foiling on the Brain

Read the question and the response again.

[scottmax]

As long as there are pationate people the class will survive. In 1999 I went halves with a guy and bought a 18 for $10 000. I think it was the old AAMI. And it was in pretty good nick. 17 foot wings so I think it was an old GP boat. The guy that I went halves with was as pationate as I about sailing and we both just wanted to sail 18's. It was never about money it was about just getting out and having fun.
The partnership did not last to long as we both wanted to drive and he had more $$ than me and I wanted to get married so needed the money.
But if you want to sail 18's it can be done on a shoe string like any other class, you will not be at the front of the fleeet that is for sure but I promise after every kite ride down the Harbour or any part of the world it is impossible to wipe that smile from your face (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[Speng]

I remember watching skiff sailing back in the early 90s on the US Speedvision (now Speed TV) when they were just starting up and would take programming from anywhere. They had skiff racing on every Monday IIRC on their "boat" day in amongst the unlimited and F1 Hydroplane racing. More than anything else this and Whitbread racing got me into sailing...

Having watched Vx40s live I think that you need a boat of a certain size to be adequately visible but it would still be good to have a boat that's not too big so you could race right close to shore. The boat has to be powered up so it'll move in the lightest of breeze. I watched the Vx40s sail in not more than 8 knots of breeze average and the things still flew. It was highly impressive watching these boats trade tacks in Baltimore harbor in front of 10,000 plus ordinary people watching from shore who were highly amazed and impressed. You could not have sailed in a similar venue in a bigger boat and a more regularly powered boat could not have moved in the breeze. I think 18s would have been similarly exciting in that location and quite a bit cheaper than a 200,000 euro Vx40.

My guess is to get any sort of pro-league off the ground you need the cart and the cart IMO is TV. To do TV I think you need somebody to pony up to a worldwide/region- wide TV producer like Sky to have at the very least condensed versions of the races on some regularly programmed magazine TV show like Seamaster etc. If not worldwide then at least regional or national. The sponsor would pay for the show production and perhaps to run the regattas and maybe a few other subsidiary series sponsors. WIth this in hand you could then draw sponsors for teams because you could then promise x hours of TV in y markets etc to show off their brands. Then you probably want to be in places where the racing can be watched close to shore so that you can get large crowds to watch w/o having to pay to go on a boat and the sponsors can have cushy tents and displays to connect with the public and B2B partners right close to the action.

As for the boats I think they might need to be One-design or very close to it to help ensure close racing especially when the courses are short. You could devlop the OD very continuously as long as every team has access to the developments each season i.e. more a NASCAR model than an F1 model. that way the costs are kept in check (spread amongst all the teams) while havng a class that is still developing.