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Is Cup Sailing Become Dangerous ?


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#1 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 04:57 AM

Attached File  Gitana_Going_Over.jpg   36.4K   38 downloads

People close to ETNZ were seriously shocked when Adam Beashel's hand went into a block and he suffered nerve damage.

Before that, there was Max Sirana of Prada with blood spurting everywhere a forlorn attempt to clear something fowling an appendage.

A. Guirri is able to tell us these events were nothing compared to fingers chewed by big blocks on J-Boats or heads banged by booms under immense loads.

But will all this history look like peanuts compared to what lies ahead ?

When comes to flipping cats, it is 2 - 1 Oracle. Two guys were injured in the Foncia flip and today we hear of Russell's nine stitches. How many others shaken up ?

Are we heading into a new danger zone ?

Groupama 3 seemed to go over without much effort. Could a 90 foot DOG-Monster do the same thing ?

With all that gear, are we looking at underwater entrapment ?

It is clearly going to be more dangerous than before ?

But how dangerous ?

What do you think ?

Attached File  Groupama_Inverted_on_Tow.jpg   59.14K   12 downloads

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#2 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:51 AM

Here ya go . . .




So Collier, one of Lipton's men, drowned in a dismasting of Shamrock.

The description of Lipton himself is pretty close to what we are hearing about Russell.

In the 157 years of the Cup, how many fatalities have there been ?

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#3 drxtal

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:45 AM

One of the things I am a little astonishe about is that the crew on these high-performance multihulls are not wearing helmets.

Watching footage of L'Hydroptère going 45+ knots and considering how quickly these boats slow down when things go wrong, it would seem like the smart thing to do. Anyone going 50 mph/80 kph on a bike, skis or rollerblades has them on now.

Unfortunately, the way these things work is that it will take a serious head-injury until helmets become the norm.

#4 Greever

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 11:43 AM

What do you think ?



I think they need to HTFU, and get to sailing those DOG monsters.......

#5 Essex

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:32 PM

One of the things I am a little astonishe about is that the crew on these high-performance multihulls are not wearing helmets.


Sounds like an opportunity for Russell & SLAM to jump on, then he could be the man who brought safety to sailing.

#6 mad

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:37 PM

One of the things I am a little astonishe about is that the crew on these high-performance multihulls are not wearing helmets.

Watching footage of L'Hydroptère going 45+ knots and considering how quickly these boats slow down when things go wrong, it would seem like the smart thing to do. Anyone going 50 mph/80 kph on a bike, skis or rollerblades has them on now.

Unfortunately, the way these things work is that it will take a serious head-injury until helmets become the norm.

What the fuck is it with people who always want things done in a safe low-risk fashion, governments round the world keep legislating against thing that are dangerous and its breeding a world of people who can't look after themselves.

Next you will want fucking crash pods on the boats with 4 point harnesses and oxygen bottles in case they flip

Give me a fucking break

#7 view at the front

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 04:06 PM

I did ask Mark and Tim at the BMW/O presentation at the Anacortes Yacht Club if the front 20' on the new DOG boat would be a crumple zone to avoid killing people in the dial-ups.

#8 drxtal

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 04:25 PM

What the fuck is it with people who always want things done in a safe low-risk fashion, governments round the world keep legislating against thing that are dangerous and its breeding a world of people who can't look after themselves.

Next you will want fucking crash pods on the boats with 4 point harnesses and oxygen bottles in case they flip

Give me a fucking break


Dude - take a deep breath.

Nobody is talking about legislating anything. I am just saying that if I were on a boat going 50mph with the possibility of a catastrophic crash, I would take some precautions.

I know some people don't think it's "cool' or even "wimpy" to wear PFDs when you are sailing and maybe a helmet when you are skiing or biking. Those are the people that make the headlines and end up as finalists on the Darwin awards.

#9 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:42 PM

One of the things I am a little astonishe about is that the crew on these high-performance multihulls are not wearing helmets.

Watching footage of L'Hydroptère going 45+ knots and considering how quickly these boats slow down when things go wrong, it would seem like the smart thing to do. Anyone going 50 mph/80 kph on a bike, skis or rollerblades has them on now.

Unfortunately, the way these things work is that it will take a serious head-injury until helmets become the norm.


Agreed ! REAL MEN WEAR HELMETS !

#10 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 05:44 PM

What the fuck is it with people who always want things done in a safe low-risk fashion, governments round the world keep legislating against thing that are dangerous and its breeding a world of people who can't look after themselves.

Next you will want fucking crash pods on the boats with 4 point harnesses and oxygen bottles in case they flip

Give me a fucking break



I am guessing you are a young (probably working-class) white male.

Nobody is suggesting the removal of all danger.

But even neanderthals that run the NHL now want helmets.

#11 WetHog

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:18 PM

When it comes to match racing in big boats in big wind hasn't the AC always been a tad dangerous? Here are some examples:

Posted Image

And this could of been nasty I would think?

Posted Image

And what about +39 and UITG "Crossing the Streams" in ACT 13 was it? And USA-87 harpooning ITA-86 in ACT (can't remember)?

And the poor bowmen of the AC have been rolling the dice over the years? Doesn't seem anymore dangerous than its been.

Everyone that pushes an AC boat to its limits in competition has my respect. Even the China Team folk. ;)

WetHog :ph34r:

#12 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 06:55 PM

When the TNZ mast came down in 2003 several guys were in the water (with rigging and gear everywhere).

I was nearby and found it disturbing.

But even more worrying was the bloke that climbed the stub of the mast to the point where nasty carbon shards were waiting.

On the other hand, I was blown away by Cammas sitting in the upside down hull of G3 - talking on his cellphone. Did he also catch up on his email ?

The danger has always been there. All that has changed is the need to:

1. Think more clearly about avoiding hazards

2. Fine-tuning emergency response.

Might I politely suggest each syndicate realize it is a new game and come up with ground rules for emergencies.

RC's 9 stitches and the Foncia flip are just a warning.

#13 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 09:59 PM

Slightly off topic but do any of you multi types have experience righting capsized cats or tris ?

When G3 capsized off Dunedin, Cammas and his mates scoured the countryside looking for heavy weights (eg. railway wheels) to hang off one hull.

Presumably they planned to get one side down as low as possible before pulling on the high side. Didn't work. Had tow it in upside down.

For reasons I will not go into here, this is of great interest.

Does anyone know why the Oracle Extreme 40 mast broke the other day ? Was it intact before they started the tow or salvage ? And exactly what was it that gashed Russell's leg ?

It is not possible to tow an inverted sailing craft with an intact mast up the Valencia Canal ? Not enough depth.

Seems to me the absence of a fixed (or hard) point makes it pretty challenging to flip over an inverted multihull with rigging etc intact (while out in a seaway).

Maybe alright for a Hobie Cat. But bigger ain't better in this department.

Your thoughts ?

Attached File  Groupama_Being_Flipped_2.jpg   10.79K   3 downloads

Attached File  CU_Groupama_Upside_Down.jpg   101.42K   11 downloads

#14 RHough

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 10:06 PM

Your thoughts ?

Don't capsize. :)

#15 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 10:27 PM

Posted Image


Wethog ... do you know who that is standing in the back of Young America watching it turn into a banana ? You know ?

#16 Hastings

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 10:29 PM

After the Aussie sinking in San Diego and near loss of Young America in Auckland, chase boats starting paying more attention and syndicates
went out and bought lift bags.

Good idea then.

Even better now.

#17 ntman

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 11:34 PM

Hastings, Cammas and co were probably looking for weights to sink the stern a bit. all multi's i have seen or heard about have been righted by getting the stern to sink a bit, either by weights or by towing it, and pulling it up the right way by towing the boat backwards with the tow attached to the bow. this very often results in the rig breaking and in some cases the rig has to be cut away first.

#18 WetHog

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:26 AM

Wethog ... do you know who that is standing in the back of Young America watching it turn into a banana ? You know ?


Got no idea, but I'll wager his shorts aren't clean. ;)

WetHog :ph34r:

#19 Landlockedlubber

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:58 AM

Wethog ... do you know who that is standing in the back of Young America watching it turn into a banana ? You know ?


Young Ed B?

#20 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 07:17 AM

Hastings, Cammas and co were probably looking for weights to sink the stern a bit. all multi's i have seen or heard about have been righted by getting the stern to sink a bit, either by weights or by towing it, and pulling it up the right way by towing the boat backwards with the tow attached to the bow. this very often results in the rig breaking and in some cases the rig has to be cut away first.


OK ... that is very interesting.

So, like a reverse pitchpole.

I was thinking you would do it laterally.

Instead of the bow coming up and over, would be a part/starboard job.

Tie lines to but run them under the port hull and across under the other hull.

Bring the lines up and around the starboard hull and back across the decks to the tow boat positioned with its aft end against the port hull.

Put your weights on the port hull, pull with your towboat and hope the taniwha's in this neighbourhood are friendly !

Try and flip the boat without losing the mast.

Now the real Hastings model.

Try and find a halyard on the upside down boat. Attach a lift bag to the snap shackle. Hoist the bag to the top of the mast (now pointing straight at the sea bed).

With the bag at the masthead, inflate !

Mast now very nicely comes to the surface. Must now lies parallel to the water.

Attach a line to the airborn hull and pull.

You heard it here first !

#21 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 07:19 AM

Young Ed B?



You got it !

After his boat was knocked from the contest, he became a colour commentator for TV New Zealand.

And did an excellent job.

#22 mad

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:11 AM

OK ... that is very interesting.

So, like a reverse pitchpole.

I was thinking you would do it laterally.

Instead of the bow coming up and over, would be a part/starboard job.

Tie lines to but run them under the port hull and across under the other hull.

Bring the lines up and around the starboard hull and back across the decks to the tow boat positioned with its aft end against the port hull.

Put your weights on the port hull, pull with your towboat and hope the taniwha's in this neighbourhood are friendly !

Try and flip the boat without losing the mast.

Now the real Hastings model.

Try and find a halyard on the upside down boat. Attach a lift bag to the snap shackle. Hoist the bag to the top of the mast (now pointing straight at the sea bed).

With the bag at the masthead, inflate !

Mast now very nicely comes to the surface. Must now lies parallel to the water.

Attach a line to the airborn hull and pull.

You heard it here first !

Hate to say it, thats nothing new

#23 dogwatch

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:24 AM

What the fuck is it with people who always want things done in a safe low-risk fashion, governments round the world keep legislating against thing that are dangerous and its breeding a world of people who can't look after themselves.


Wearing a helmet is looking after yourself. Cyclists bikers wear them. Snowboarders wear them. Climbers wear them in rockfall areas. Some dinghy sailors and sailboarders wear them. I've never worn one for sailing so far but if I was going 40 knots I might.

#24 mad

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:37 AM

They managed quite well in the Orma 60 fleet races without helmets etc and their closing speeds at mark roundings are similar, AC will only be 2 boats not a fleet of 8 boats.

#25 USA_73

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:00 PM

Wearing a helmet is looking after yourself. Cyclists bikers wear them. Snowboarders wear them. Climbers wear them in rockfall areas. Some dinghy sailors and sailboarders wear them. I've never worn one for sailing so far but if I was going 40 knots I might.


Not much comparison... I wear a helmet skiing & biking, but I don't wear a PFD. I sail with a PFD if it's bad, but I don't wear a helmet.
Asphalt & trees eat brains, water eats people.

Motorboats and cars go that fast or faster, but you rarely see non professionals wearig helmets. Pros in those sports don't even come close to going that slow.

#26 Stingray

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:08 PM

During the G2 Training in Lorient they did not wear helmets but it looks like they may have PFDs. From the photos here:

Attached File  Lor0408__0755.jpg   78.89K   21 downloads

#27 drxtal

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:17 PM

Not much comparison... I wear a helmet skiing & biking, but I don't wear a PFD. I sail with a PFD if it's bad, but I don't wear a helmet.
Asphalt & trees eat brains, water eats people.

Motorboats and cars go that fast or faster, but you rarely see non professionals wearig helmets. Pros in those sports don't even come close to going that slow.


I think that helmets may make sense in the narrow context of a 90ft multihull going 40+ knots. When these things pitchpole, there is a very specific risk of a rapid deceleration event that sends the crew flying through the air.

I completely agree that a helmet does not make sense on a normal boat, even smaller multihulls. I suppose you could argue that it could prevent boom-related head-injuries, but that's another matter.

I agree the call to put on PFDs is tricky. I think that we all have a good sense of when to put it on in terms of wind conditions, but I think we often forget the water temp. issue, as a recent story on the front page illustrates.

#28 USA_73

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:27 PM

I think that helmets may make sense in the narrow context of a 90ft multihull going 40+ knots. When these things pitchpole, there is a very specific risk of a rapid deceleration event that sends the crew flying through the air.

Fair enough. To continue the cross-overs, I have never seen a human cannonball at the circus that wasn't wearing a helmet. And he is even being caught by a net.
I think overall, though, there will be much less bad things happening once there is experience. Just like in skiing and biking, it even takes skill to fall without getting hurt.

#29 RHough

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 03:28 PM

I agree the call to put on PFDs is tricky. I think that we all have a good sense of when to put it on in terms of wind conditions, but I think we often forget the water temp. issue, as a recent story on the front page illustrates.

I hate to bring this up ... would we have lost a VO sailor if the practice was to be clipped in while on deck all the time? Our good sense tends to have us leave reefing, harnesses, and PFD's too late. If we just get in the habit of wearing them all the time, it is no longer an issue.

Its been said that a cyclist will buy and wear any helmet at any price if you offer it to him after his ass has left the seat and his head hits the curb. ;)

The Bell display used to have a banner: "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet"

There is no way that helmets should be mandatory for any adult, put I can see where they might be a nice bit of kit to have on some boats under certain conditions ... they also make nice mountings for the live TV feed ... :)

#30 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 05:55 PM

I hate to bring this up ... would we have lost a VO sailor if the practice was to be clipped in while on deck all the time? Our good sense tends to have us leave reefing, harnesses, and PFD's too late. If we just get in the habit of wearing them all the time, it is no longer an issue.

Its been said that a cyclist will buy and wear any helmet at any price if you offer it to him after his ass has left the seat and his head hits the curb. ;)

The Bell display used to have a banner: "If you have a $10 head, buy a $10 helmet"

There is no way that helmets should be mandatory for any adult, put I can see where they might be a nice bit of kit to have on some boats under certain conditions ... they also make nice mountings for the live TV feed ... :)


Syndicates are putting so much time, money and energy into boats they can surely think about safety (and set a good example).

Alinghi guys are already wearing PFDs on Le Black.

Coastguard are wearing helmets in RIBs. When a RIB hits something hard, it is like a multi pitchpole.

If guys fall from a hull 20-30 feet up in the air, hitting water would not be so bad. But landing on a hard point (e.g. a winch) not good.

In this regard, we have still not been told have Russell got his gash requiring 9 stitches. Was it a "tearing" or a "cutting/slicing" situation ?

My guess is positions in this argument can be arrayed along a continuum correlated with age.

Young guys with big appendages think they are bullet proof and helmets are for girls.

Older guys will be more apt to endorse helmets etc.

Women tend to be wiser than men and will not take umbrage at the idea of helmets.

Although, in this regard I cannot speak for Ro !

#31 marian

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 05:59 PM

One of the things I am a little astonishe about is that the crew on these high-performance multihulls are not wearing helmets.


Could be something to do with the fact that nobody makes helmets that are suitable for sailing. http://www.sailinghelmet.com/

#32 Essex

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 06:13 PM

Something like this looks a lot cooler.....

Posted Image

#33 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 06:18 PM

Something like this looks a lot cooler.....

Posted Image


Olympic cyclists seem to have sorted out their helmets.

So AC sailors should be capable of doing the same.

#34 RHough

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 06:25 PM

Could be something to do with the fact that nobody makes helmets that are suitable for sailing. http://www.sailinghelmet.com/


Yep, I remember seeing the crew on 18's wearing protective headgear, hockey helmets or something. Until there is a demand, we won't see them.

Random Trivia:
Most boating deaths are drownings
Alcohol is the biggest common factor in boating accidents
No data (that I've seen published) shows how many boating accidents involve head injury or how many of the drowning victims were unconscious when they went off the boat
The information on auto accidents does show that head injury deaths are at least as common as head injury deaths on motorcycles (they were higher at one time), yet there is no one advocating helmet usage in autos
Even in activities where the data shows that wearing a helmet has a high probability of reducing injury and preventing death, their use is not universal
For activities such as sailing where no such data exists (to my knowledge) there is very little incentive for helmet usage or helmet development

At the firehose speeds big multis are capable of, some sort of eye protection / vision protection is probably a good idea. Making a visor/goggle system part of protective headgear makes very good sense.

#35 USA_73

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 07:56 PM

There are sailing helmets out there. Very popular with windsurfing.
Gath Helmets

Don't these look cool?
Attached File  rv_black_350.jpg   18.13K   2 downloads

#36 ro!

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:08 PM

Syndicates are putting so much time, money and energy into boats they can surely think about safety (and set a good example).

Alinghi guys are already wearing PFDs on Le Black.

Coastguard are wearing helmets in RIBs. When a RIB hits something hard, it is like a multi pitchpole.

If guys fall from a hull 20-30 feet up in the air, hitting water would not be so bad. But landing on a hard point (e.g. a winch) not good.

In this regard, we have still not been told have Russell got his gash requiring 9 stitches. Was it a "tearing" or a "cutting/slicing" situation ?

My guess is positions in this argument can be arrayed along a continuum correlated with age.

Young guys with big appendages think they are bullet proof and helmets are for girls.

Older guys will be more apt to endorse helmets etc.

Women tend to be wiser than men and will not take umbrage at the idea of helmets.

Although, in this regard I cannot speak for Ro !



You do not speak for me in this or any other regard - just nonsense for yourself.

It's no surprise you do not know that the RTW multi guys sometimes wear helmets for the dangerous act of sleeping, your god Dalts must have forgotten to tell you

I would not ride my motorcycle or ski/snowboard without a helmet, in your tiny mind that makes me an older women with small appendages.

I predict that if it's above 15knts with any seas they will all be wearing helmets and pfd's, they are not looking at 20' falls but a possibe 80'

RC was bitten by a confused, out of control, Blackheart tanitwat and your blackheart is probably hoping the Traitor loses a leg.

Keep me out of your gay posts and I won't have to point out to your students what a Blackheart twat you are.

#37 drxtal

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:25 PM

Young guys with big appendages think they are bullet proof and helmets are for girls.
Older guys will be more apt to endorse helmets etc.


I think you are right when it comes to PFDs.

However, i find that on ski slopes the opposite is true. Young people think helmets are cool - it's the older generation that wears them much less frequently.

#38 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:47 PM

I think you are right when it comes to PFDs.

However, i find that on ski slopes the opposite is true. Young people think helmets are cool - it's the older generation that wears them much less frequently.



Very interesting !

Orthodontists also persuaded kids expensive braces on your teeth are cool.

Maybe and indicator of dads SES ?

#39 Hastings

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 08:52 PM

In your tiny mind ....


Well, being an expert on this, it is best you wear a helmet to protect the bit that remains ...

#40 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:50 AM

It's no surprise you do not know that the RTW multi guys sometimes wear helmets for the dangerous act of sleeping,


Also to add protection from colision with Flying Fish. The 'Race' guys described their boats as being from a scene in the Godfather with blood and entrails everywhere.

#41 Tornado_ALIVE

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:59 AM

Perhaps BOR could take safety a step futher

Posted Image

#42 FoilerMothGuy

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 03:39 AM

Posted Image

Even old men wear helmets... :lol:

#43 dogwatch

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 10:46 AM

Could be something to do with the fact that nobody makes helmets that are suitable for sailing.


I don't believe that. Cyclist's helmets are designed to be lightweight and protect the head from a single knock, which seems exactly what you'd want for a sailing helmet. Canoeist and climber's helmets are heavier and designed to withstand multiple and harder knocks. Take your pick.

#44 boomer

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 11:33 AM

Could be something to do with the fact that nobody makes helmets that are suitable for sailing. http://www.sailinghelmet.com/


Sailing helmets for windsurfing have been available for years....

#45 boomer

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:38 PM

isn't this sufficient . . . . . . ??


depends....

#46 RHough

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 01:45 PM

depends....


Depends is protection for the other end ...

#47 HHN92

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 02:51 PM

Depends is protection for the other end ...


+1, what he said.

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#48 Presuming Ed

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 06:01 PM

Gecko make marine helmets.

Posted Image

Gath in use.

Attached Files



#49 ro!

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Posted 24 May 2008 - 10:58 PM

Well, being an expert on this, it is best you wear a helmet to protect the bit that remains ...


Yea I wear a helmet to protect whats left of the grey matter, you on the other hand appear to be running on empty.

#50 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 12:18 AM

Yea I wear a helmet to protect whats left of the grey matter



Good, hang onto what you've got.

Because, when the taniwha comes, you will need to take decisive action.

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#51 ro!

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 12:47 AM

Good, hang onto what you've got.

Because, when the taniwha comes, you will need to take decisive action.

Attached File  Araiteuru_Taniwha_Stamp.jpg   44.14K   2 downloads



As I have said before you can stick your tanitwat where the sun don't shine - something you both would enjoy.
Good to see that one got confused and put the BMWO 40 on it's roof and bit RC on the leg -- I see that Russel is now off the hatings Blackheart Kiwi Traitor list!

#52 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 12:55 AM

I see that Russel is now off the hatings Kiwi Traitor list!


Not quite.

But, unlike you, he has been sent out for rehabilitation !!!

As things stand, the taniwha is more interested in your appendages than his.

So watch your step, untie before you leave the dock and keep your radio on Channel 16.

Because, just outside the breakwater is trouble.

#53 ro!

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 01:57 AM

Not quite.

But, unlike you, he has been sent out for rehabilitation !!!

As things stand, the taniwha is more interested in your appendages than his.

So watch your step, untie before you leave the dock and keep your radio on Channel 16.

Because, just outside the breakwater is trouble.


You are a fucking idiot.
It was hatings BLACKHEART Kiwi Traitor list.

#54 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 05:05 AM

You are a fucking idiot.
It was hatings BLACKHEART Kiwi Traitor list.



Ro .. I apologise for my appalling education. It was truly a tragedy.

But, try as I might, I am unable to follow your latest fulmination.

Are you suggesting I have a list of "fucking idiots," "traitors" or what ?

Maybe you could give me a list of your teachers and the other girls in your class ?

Your teachers must be proud of you. Are they ?

#55 ro!

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 03:34 PM

Ro .. I apologise for my appalling education. It was truly a tragedy.

But, try as I might, I am unable to follow your latest fulmination.

Are you suggesting I have a list of "fucking idiots," "traitors" or what ?

Maybe you could give me a list of your teachers and the other girls in your class ?

Your teachers must be proud of you. Are they ?



You are a fucking idiot for making juvenile threats with stupid tanitwats outside the breakwall!!

You have a list of kiwi traitors who you denigrate here all the time -- but RC has lately become Russel so it looks like he is getting a free pass now that he works for TNZ's latest billionaire benefactor.

Maybe you can get an opinion from the girls in your classes about their professor

#56 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 06:24 PM

RC has lately become Russel so it looks like he is getting a free pass now that he works for TNZ's latest billionaire benefactor.



Yea, well with everything that's wrong in the world, maybe it is time to hand out free passes.

Even to you !

#57 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 09:47 PM

Talking about danger, Scott Dixon of NZ has just won the Indianapolis 500 car race.

Poured milk over his head !!!! You have to like the cultural aspects of the game.

#58 Hastings

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 09:50 PM

No PFD's back then


Thanks for this. MOB off Constitution. Lowered a boat to look ! But body never found.

MOB is always dangerous.

Much more dangerous than most people realise.

#59 RHough

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Posted 25 May 2008 - 10:32 PM

Thanks for this. MOB off Constitution. Lowered a boat to look ! But body never found.

MOB is always dangerous.

Much more dangerous than most people realise.

Having found myself in the water on more than one occasion, I agree, swimming is much slower than sailing. Sailing is much faster than recovering a capsized boat.

Best not to fall off or capsize, be prepared and have safety gear and a plan, but best to stay on the boat and not tip it over. I'm not trying to make light of it, just saying that an ounce of prevention will go a long way. Knowing the limits of the boat and practice time will greatly reduce the risks. Breaking several rigs and dumping the X40's will prove to be cheap tuition to learn the skills needed to go fast and keep the big boat right side up. BMWO should be ready to launch the day after the court rules and get as much time in DoGzilla as they can. Time in type will more than make up for anything clever that Alinghi comes up with to defend in.

On a light note, I have witnessed the definition of a fierce competitor. Watched a Laser capsize close to the line on a downwind finish, the skipper didn't stop to right the boat, but got the sail to fill (mast in the water, boom up) and sailed the boat over the line on its side ... only losing one place in the process.

In other racing news, Lewis Hamilton won the F1 race in Monaco.
Danica Patrick got taken out of the Indy in a pit lane accident, Ms Patrick was on her way to discuss the incident with the other driver and team when the rather large head of security was able to restrain her. After the race her comment was, "Well, it was probably best that I didn't make it to their pit."

Back to tin hat ideas ... :D

Take the masthead airbag concept one step farther ... inflate it with Hydrogen and let it pick the rig out of the water. Once the the boat is back on her feet, a small charge releases the balloon and ignites it, consuming the biodegradable envelope so it cannot harm sea creatures or float away and become airborne litter.

#60 Hastings

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 12:06 AM

Take the masthead airbag concept one step farther ... inflate it with Hydrogen and let it pick the rig out of the water. Once the the boat is back on her feet, a small charge releases the balloon and ignites it, consuming the biodegradable envelope so it cannot harm sea creatures or float away and become airborne litter.


You've got it. And endorsed by Greenpeace !

Ernie and Larry ... your read it here first.

If not royalties than at least a few jugs of beer !

My only worry is this .... Will NQ, the on-the-edge paparazzi, be there to photograph the sequence ?

#61 ro!

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 12:58 AM

Yea, well with everything that's wrong in the world, maybe it is time to hand out free passes.

Even to you !



Well that is good to see you embrace Brad and the rest of the traitors as the great AC kiwi sailors they are.

Just to put Scot Dixon's Indy win into perspective, Ganassi Racing have had the two quickest cars all month so barring mishap one of them was gonna win, Dixon drove a great race whilst his teamate had problems. There are 150 guys working at Ganassi Racing so it takes a bit more than just being a kiwi to win Indy.

The only thing I want from you is to stop dragging me into your post's so that I will not have to keep pointing out what a twat you are.

#62 HHN92

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:51 AM

In other racing news, Lewis Hamilton won the F1 race in Monaco.
Danica Patrick got taken out of the Indy in a pit lane accident, Ms Patrick was on her way to discuss the incident with the other driver and team when the rather large head of security was able to restrain her. After the race her comment was, "Well, it was probably best that I didn't make it to their pit."

Back to tin hat ideas ... :D


To update the race coverage;

F1 - 3 passes for the lead - yawn

Indy 500 - 18 passes for the lead - better

Coca Cola 600 - 25-30 passes for the lead, 2-3 cars wide, with 60 laps to go out of 400 - exciting


F1 high tech, boring

NASCAR - low tech, exciting

Ok, hi-jack over, flaming starting.

#63 RHough

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 07:27 AM

NASCAR - low tech, exciting

Ok, hi-jack over, flaming starting.

LOL!!!

We need another hijack ...

Okay you fucking idiot ... :)

Since when is NASCAR low-tech? It is a full time fucking job to re-write rules as fast as those "low-tech" rednecks find the loopholes to beat the last rule you wrote. The latest is they used to mount the damn bodies caddy-wompus (low-tech NASCAR term) on the frame so they would have less drag whilst only turning left ... they banned that with the new One-Design car and the "low-tech" redneck answer was to bend the rear axle so the car went caddy-whopus again to reduce drag whilst only turning left ... they have now limited the axle bend ... rule loophole mining is back in the redneck court.

NASCAR is very high-tech, just not obviously so. A GN car looks kind of like a stock car, but is as high tech as can be and still look and drive like an anvil. It's kind of like the VO70's looking like monohull sloops, but in reality were high-tech canting keel motor sailors.

NASCAR is high-tech and fast ... looking like low-tech.

The DoG Multi's will actually be low-tech and fast. There is not enough time to sort out a high-tech boat between now and the match (even if the match is not sailed until Summer 2009).

I happen to be more of a F1 fan than a NASCAR fan, mainly because I don't much care for oval track racing on courses over 1/2 mile long (Life doesn't get much better than World of Outlaws, beer and a race track hot dog). When NASACR goes road racing, I'm there. I don't keep up with the rules in NASCAR all that much, but from what I know about NASCAR the cars are every bit as highly developed as F1, just to a different set of rules. In F1 and other open wheel road racing the tech that interests me is more visible, that is not a knock on NASCAR at all, just my preference. I really enjoyed the bit they did a few years ago at the Indy Road course when Juan Montoya swapped cars with Jeff Gordon(?). JM was surprised at how much effort it took to get a 'stock car' around and the lack of brakes, traction, and power compared to F1, IIRC JG took a few laps to figure out how to deal with a car that really stops. Now Juan Montoya is racing NASCAR and not as high in the field (AFAIK) as he was in F1. NASCAR is a very different game for sure.

However, those beasties are hitting 200 MPH (320 kph?) and I'm not buying the 'good old boy' low-tech crap for a minute. Anyone that has tried to build a 200 MPH machine will tell you that 'low-tech' ain't going to get 'er done. ;)

Where were we ...

Oh yes ...

STFU you fucking ignorant redneck ... 'low-tech' my ass! :D

#64 Sleipnir

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:18 PM

STFU you fucking ignorant redneck ... 'low-tech' my ass! :D


What he said!

Low tech - like Carl Edwards "oil tank cover" out of place. What dumb southern hick figured out that was good for a couple of mph? :P
The "car of the future" was supposed to stop all that stuff.
And there still finding things on Smokey's Camaro - from 20+ years ago.
Let's get Rick Hendrick to challenge for the cup.
See, it isn't a hijack after all - just a segue. :lol:

#65 Hastings

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 05:13 PM

Well that is good to see you embrace Brad and the rest of the traitors as the great AC kiwi sailors they are.

Just to put Scot Dixon's Indy win into perspective, Ganassi Racing have had the two quickest cars all month so barring mishap one of them was gonna win, Dixon drove a great race whilst his teamate had problems. There are 150 guys working at Ganassi Racing so it takes a bit more than just being a kiwi to win Indy.

The only thing I want from you is to stop dragging me into your post's so that I will not have to keep pointing out what a twat you are.


Dear Brother Ro,

Peace !

Yes, Scott Dixon has a team. But give him his win.

It is a great for New Zealand.

And Miss Marian has lapsed into silence !

#66 Hastings

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 05:15 PM

LOL!!!

We need another hijack ...

Okay you fucking idiot ... :)

Since when is NASCAR low-tech? It is a full time fucking job to re-write rules as fast as those "low-tech" rednecks find the loopholes to beat the last rule you wrote. The latest is they used to mount the damn bodies caddy-wompus (low-tech NASCAR term) on the frame so they would have less drag whilst only turning left ... they banned that with the new One-Design car and the "low-tech" redneck answer was to bend the rear axle so the car went caddy-whopus again to reduce drag whilst only turning left ... they have now limited the axle bend ... rule loophole mining is back in the redneck court.

NASCAR is very high-tech, just not obviously so. A GN car looks kind of like a stock car, but is as high tech as can be and still look and drive like an anvil. It's kind of like the VO70's looking like monohull sloops, but in reality were high-tech canting keel motor sailors.

NASCAR is high-tech and fast ... looking like low-tech.

The DoG Multi's will actually be low-tech and fast. There is not enough time to sort out a high-tech boat between now and the match (even if the match is not sailed until Summer 2009).

I happen to be more of a F1 fan than a NASCAR fan, mainly because I don't much care for oval track racing on courses over 1/2 mile long (Life doesn't get much better than World of Outlaws, beer and a race track hot dog). When NASACR goes road racing, I'm there. I don't keep up with the rules in NASCAR all that much, but from what I know about NASCAR the cars are every bit as highly developed as F1, just to a different set of rules. In F1 and other open wheel road racing the tech that interests me is more visible, that is not a knock on NASCAR at all, just my preference. I really enjoyed the bit they did a few years ago at the Indy Road course when Juan Montoya swapped cars with Jeff Gordon(?). JM was surprised at how much effort it took to get a 'stock car' around and the lack of brakes, traction, and power compared to F1, IIRC JG took a few laps to figure out how to deal with a car that really stops. Now Juan Montoya is racing NASCAR and not as high in the field (AFAIK) as he was in F1. NASCAR is a very different game for sure.

However, those beasties are hitting 200 MPH (320 kph?) and I'm not buying the 'good old boy' low-tech crap for a minute. Anyone that has tried to build a 200 MPH machine will tell you that 'low-tech' ain't going to get 'er done. ;)

Where were we ...

Oh yes ...

STFU you fucking ignorant redneck ... 'low-tech' my ass! :D



Jeez ... I have feeling these guys are not using Mallory distributors and Made-in-China timing lights !

#67 ro!

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 06:47 PM

Dear Brother Ro,

Peace !

Yes, Scott Dixon has a team. But give him his win.

It is a great for New Zealand.

And Miss Marian has lapsed into silence !


I already said Dixon drove a great race, it's not just a team, he needed a great team to help him to victory in the 500 because he had the best car.
You read something in the Sunday papers and think suddenly you're an expert.

Recently I had to point out your ignorance of Maori traditions and their distaste for Taniwha soap, about which you had posted and directed at me.

New Zealand has a rich heritage in motorsport with Grand Prix drivers Chris Amon, Denny Hulme and Bruce McLaren who founded McLaren Motor Racing in the UK, they have won 159 GP's having competed since 1963. The McLaren team won yesterday in Monaco with a young English driver but it obviously didn't show up on your radar or in the sports pages of the Hastings Bugle.
I have known 100's of kiwi mechanics and engineers involved in all forms of racing over the years, and with a couple of exceptions they have all been good blokes. They have all left NZ to pursue their dreams and a better pay check.
This is why I know your Blackheart traitor and tanitwat bullshit is nonsense and not something your average kiwi would support.

I guess Marian lapsing into silence would not be hard compared to someone who posts 2100 times in 6 months, maybe she has a life beyond SA!

#68 RHough

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 06:49 PM

I guess lapsing into silence would not be hard compared to someone who posts 2100 times in 6 months, maybe she has a life beyond SA!


Does such a life exist? :)

#69 schakel

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 08:09 PM

. . . fuckin petrol heads . . . internal combustion engine . . . what a fucking joke . . . get out of the nineteenth century and into the 21st . . . (note accent)


That's about the best news I heard for a long time. Does this mean hydrogen economy as an idea, is over?

#70 RHough

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 08:31 PM

That's about the best news I heard for a long time. Does this mean hydrogen economy as an idea, is over?


There is an idea that is a hard sell ... :)

"Yes sir, the hydrogen goes right in here ... kind of a mini Hindenburg in the trunk."

"We also offer this nifty electric car that you can drive for 150 miles after charging it for 12 hours, the extension cord option for longer range is due out next year."

"You might like this hybrid truck. It grows its own corn for alcohol fuel here in the bed, the corn meal is used to feed the cow, the cow's droppings are use to fertilize the corn and we use the methane gas in the cow farts to fuel the corn alcohol still ..."

Seriously, has anyone come up with an alternative system that has a lower total carbon footprint after the energy used to make the electricity or hydrogen is considered?

Everyone does realize that we have both low-emission and zero emission vehicles on the road now don't they? A low emission vehicle emits fewer unburned hydrocarbons during the average commute than making the toast to eat on the way (that good toast smell is unburned HC from the bread).

I want to paint the center median black and the shoulders white to create a micro land breeze across the roadway and go to work in a land yacht, beam reaching each way ... :)

#71 schakel

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:37 AM

and plenty of people are working pretty hard on bringing it on stream.


If I was asked to make a bet on the winning idea I would say solar energy that's feeding an electricity net. An the cars are driving on electricity.

Zero emission, sustainable technology, But it's not that simple because that's not enough. I still hope nuclear fusion, the ITER project wins. Operational 2017.

It's a big gamble, taken in account world civilisation might depend on it.
That's why everything possible in this field is tried.

#72 UniGor

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 04:07 PM

If a 90' tri travelling at 40+ knots decides it wants to pitchpole, a helmet will be fuck all use. A parachute would make more appropriate safety wear, particularly for the guys at the back.

#73 Sailor2

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 04:27 PM

Does this mean hydrogen economy as an idea, is over?

Allthough "hydrogen economy" seems to be a rather common expression, why is the word "economy" used in it instead of word "technology ?" What's it got to do with economy , nobody is likely to start paying things with hydrogen instead of cash or creditcard, so why word economy ?

#74 Hastings

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:43 PM

. . . fuckin petrol heads . . . internal combustion engine . . . what a fucking joke . . . get out of the nineteenth century and into the 21st . . . (note accent)


Hey Guirri ... I just watched the video ... So Wright is a kiwi but the car is registered in California ... Did it really do that to the Ferrari and the Porsche ?

Maybe I need that engine in my boat ?

#75 Sailor2

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 05:56 PM

Hey Guirri ... I just watched the video ... So Wright is a kiwi but the car is registered in California ... Did it really do that to the Ferrari and the Porsche ?

Sure, why not, nothing to do with power allowable, but traction ...

Maybe I need that engine in my boat ?

Well if you intend to use the engine only less than a minute at the time, before recharging the batteries, that seems like the good choice compared to what you have now, V8, but so would a rocket engine for such short bursts ...

#76 Hastings

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:08 PM

Dear A. Guirri,

OK, stand down. I looked up Ian Wright.

Am thrilled and shocked. Thrilled because he is really onto something and the pickup truck is the way to go. Shocked because he is another innovative kiwi making it big in the States and, until you mentioned it, I had never heard of him. The Peter Jackson of the automotive industry.

That little car sure goes ! He seems to be based in the suburbs of SFO - Oracle country.

There is a long history of oil interests ensuring electric vehicles don't go anywhere. And batteries are always a problem.

But Ian Wright looks like a bloke worth watching. I just hope he can find the finance and keep control of the project.

www.wrightspeed.com

Guirri .. thanks for bringing this to our attention.

#77 RHough

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:48 PM

There is a long history of oil interests ensuring electric vehicles don't go anywhere. And batteries are always a problem.


I wondered where my tin hat was. :)

The last time I looked at this, the power to weight ratio for stored energy electric vehicles was not great. The limitations on capacity and charging time are a problem.

It boils down to energy conversion. In general every time you convert energy from one form to another there are losses. A solar powered car that does not store energy for later use is much more efficient than a car that converts solar, to stored, to motion. A combination is better is you can store any extra power when it is not needed for use when it is. Energy recovery baking systems try to return the energy needed to accelerate the vehicle back into stored energy, trading kinetic for potential and back again ... but there are losses. You never get it all back. It's like using an inverter to power the battery charger that charges the inverter battery.

Not having to cart around stored power is a good thing ... a sailboat is more efficient than a wind generator charging a battery that runs an electric motor. The wind energy is converted directly into motion.

I don't know how heavy the storage system is for a hydrogen fuel system with the same number of BTU stored as 50 liters of fossil fuel, but I suspect it is higher. Power is needed to cart around the fuel, lighter is better.

They have been experimenting with hydrogen fuel cells in the transit buses in Vancouver for a number of years. The technology is developing, but it will be a long time before you see a fuel cell powered production vehicle.

I'm not anti-new technology fuels and transport systems, I just haven't seen one yet that makes me sit back and say, "Wow, I have to get me one of those".

If you add a requirement for infinitely sustainable to the equation, then fossil fuel is a bad choice. I'm not going to live forever, so what we need in 100-500 years is of little concern to me. ;)

Of the items that have been posted in this thread, the Solar powered hydrogen generating system looks pretty good. It would seem that once the cell is built it can produce hydrogen as long as the sun shines ... do the titanium oxide units last forever or do they have to be replaced weekly? How big/heavy is a unit that can generate enough hydrogen to power a vehicle?

If you are looking at solar power and water ... how about a solar fired steam engine? :)

This stuff is all good, you might be surprised at how much energy research is funded by oil companies. They are interested in the bottom line and they know oil won't keep them rich forever. They have become energy companies (the smart ones) and they want to be the first to have a viable replacement for fossil fuel ... that way the money keeps going into their pockets after people get tired of fighting wars for oil. :)

#78 FatimaRules

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 06:50 PM

Fuck me this is a shit thread.

Just to bring it round to where it started before Hastings decided to answer his own questions because not a lot of others would, then decided to get side tracked about amazing New Zealanders (!?)

Erm, these guys might decide to use helmets because they are intelligent adults. Then again they might decide they don't need to because they are intelligent adults.

Look, if there's fuck all going on, don't start any threads at all! Go and do something more useful instead.

#79 oldsailor

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:09 AM

Just to bring it round to where it started before Hastings decided to answer his own questions because not a lot of others would, ----
Erm, these guys might decide to use helmets because they are intelligent adults. Then again they might decide they don't need to because they are intelligent adults.


I was into Windsurfing for a decade, and enjoyed the incredible buzz of going faster and faster as equipment, (and my skill) improved.

One day I catapulted and belted my head on the mast. I saw stars but thankfully didn't lose conciousness in the water.

I bought a Gath helmet with visor, and wondered how I had ever done without it.

It was Warm and Comfortable. The visor kept the stinging salt water out of my eyes and I felt secure.

The next time I belted my head I didn't even see stars :P I didn't feel the slightest bit "Nerdy" wearing it. :lol:

#80 Hastings

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 07:06 AM

Fuck me this is a shit thread.

Just to bring it round to where it started before Hastings decided to answer his own questions because not a lot of others would, then decided to get side tracked about amazing New Zealanders (!?)

Erm, these guys might decide to use helmets because they are intelligent adults. Then again they might decide they don't need to because they are intelligent adults.

Look, if there's fuck all going on, don't start any threads at all! Go and do something more useful instead.


I have strong sense your erudite post might be construed as an argument for why people should wear helmets.

Or as clinical evidence for what happens if they don't ?




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