[XTR]

Last spring I did a bareboat in the BVI and I was somewhat surprised by the number and variety of boats with canoe sterns out there. I found some I was familiar with and could ID and some had me a bit puzzled. So, out of curiosity I started trying to figure out what was what. Many of the designs like the Tayana 37/42, Babas, Hans Christians and Valiants are pretty familiar and not too hard to figure out what they are and what their pedigree is, (Reading BPs book helped a lot :P ) some others, like the Young Sun 43 seem to be somewhat of a mystery (at least from what I can find).

I generally like the look, any comments from the peanut gallery on which ones you like, don't, what's good, or not, opinions?

[palindrome]

XTR, on Sep 16 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

Last spring I did a bareboat in the BVI and I was somewhat surprised by the number and variety of boats with canoe sterns out there. I found some I was familiar with and could ID and some had me a bit puzzled. So, out of curiosity I started trying to figure out what was what. Many of the designs like the Tayana 37/42, Babas, Hans Christians and Valiants are pretty familiar and not too hard to figure out what they are and what their pedigree is, (Reading BPs book helped a lot :P ) some others, like the Young Sun 43 seem to be somewhat of a mystery (at least from what I can find).

I generally like the look, any comments from the peanut gallery on which ones you like, don't, what's good, or not, opinions?

I am sure someone will tell you canoe sterns are lacking in reserve buoyancy, and are suspect in large following seas. However if that were true the bow would also be an issue as it is also pointed. Canoe sterns do limit cockpit space for obvious reasons. But I am biased as Palindrome is canoe sterned (true north 34)

Pal

[FDer]

Who needs a canoe when you can have this :rolleyes:

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[Gatekeeper]

palindrome, on Sep 16 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

Canoe sterns do limit cockpit space for obvious reasons. But I am biased as Palindrome is canoe sterned (true north 34)
Pal

I just found a photo...nice boat!! I love the tough look of these boats.

They do look like going to wind might be a bit of a chore.

Dan

[palindrome]

Gatekeeper, on Sep 16 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

I just found a photo...nice boat!! I love the tough look of these boats.

They do look like going to wind might be a bit of a chore.

Dan

Funnily enough and I don't know why, but we can punch to weather and point just as high as most boats and it performs well in light air as well. It isn't a light wieght tho at 26,000 pounds loaded.

Pal

[Gatekeeper]

palindrome, on Sep 16 2008, 02:56 PM, said:

It isn't a light wieght tho at 26,000 pounds loaded.
Pal

Really!! 26,000 pounds...you carry 10,000lbs of beer??

We are one foot shorter and more than 14,000 lighter.

If we meet on the water one day, you have right of way. No question in my mind.

Dan
Mirage 33
Gatekeeper

[SemiSalt]

palindrome, on Sep 16 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

Canoe sterns do limit cockpit space for obvious reasons.

Not obvious to me.

The point with questions like this is they have an implied "as compared to". A regular canoe is all cockpit after all. Possibly a canoe stern boat is a tad longer than a square stern boat with the same accommodation below, cockpit space, and reserve buoyancy in the stern, but I'm not even sure of that.

[Gatekeeper]

SemiSalt, on Sep 16 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

Not obvious to me.

I think he means as compared to something like this (our M33)...I can see where pinching the stern would cost space.

Dan
M33 Gatekeeper

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[palindrome]

Gatekeeper, on Sep 16 2008, 12:32 PM, said:

I think he means as compared to something like this (our M33)...I can see where pinching the stern would cost space.

Dan
M33 Gatekeeper

Exactly, in fact our cockpit coaminf follows the line of the hull which tapers substantially as it goes aft till it makes a point. More modern styles have very beamy aft sections and therefore larger cockpits.

Pal

[palindrome]

Gatekeeper, on Sep 16 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

Really!! 26,000 pounds...you carry 10,000lbs of beer??

We are one foot shorter and more than 14,000 lighter.

If we meet on the water one day, you have right of way. No question in my mind.

Dan
Mirage 33
Gatekeeper

The numbers are deceptive we are 34 on deck, 30'6 on the water but 42 overall with bowsprit and pushpit. There is 8,000 pounds of lead in the keel 125 gallons of fuel storage and 100 of water. and lots of wine in the bilge.

A couple of years back we were on a mooring can and a friend in a wooden Grand Banks was trying to get close to our boat to drop some one off. He lost concentration for a moment in the breeze and our bow sprit punched a hole straight thru his Bulwarks didn't hurt us however.

Pal

[Gatekeeper]

palindrome, on Sep 16 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

There is 8,000 pounds of lead in the keel 125 gallons of fuel storage and 100 of water. and lots of wine in the bilge.
Pal

We found out we can easily chill 2 cases of Jackson-Triggs Meritage to 20C beneath our SB settee, AND consume all but 4, in 8 days down the French River :P ...(beer is a bit filling and bulky)

And there's NOTHING "deceptive" about a bowsprit that big!!

Dan

[Soñadora]

There's something to be said about a nice piece o' ass.



1st choices: Baba (30,35,40), Panda (40), Valiant, Pacific Seacraft (crealocks), Tayana 37,
2nd choices: Westsails, Nor'Sea, Southern Cross, Gale Force, F(something), Fisher, and tons of others.

Personally, though the HCs look tough and homey, they also look dumpy. Especially the 33.

edit: that 'F(something)' is the Fast Passage 44.

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[Gatekeeper]

Soñadora, on Sep 16 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

Personally, though the HCs look tough and homey, they also look dumpy. Especially the 33.

HC's ??

Dan

[palindrome]

Gatekeeper, on Sep 16 2008, 01:10 PM, said:

HC's ??

Dan

Hans Christian

Pal

[palindrome]

Soñadora, on Sep 16 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

There's something to be said about a nice piece o' ass.



1st choices: Baba (30,35,40), Panda (40), Valiant, Pacific Seacraft (crealocks), Tayana 37,
2nd choices: Westsails, Nor'Sea, Southern Cross, Gale Force, F(something), Fisher, and tons of others.

Personally, though the HCs look tough and homey, they also look dumpy. Especially the 33.

edit: that 'F(something)' is the Fast Passage 44.

Only thing your missing is a big sexy outboard hung rudder....

[Soñadora]

palindrome, on Sep 16 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

Only thing your missing is a big sexy outboard hung rudder....

I don't miss an outboard hung rudder, but I sure do like looking at them. Nicest feature of a Wetsnail IMO.

[SemiSalt]

Gatekeeper, on Sep 16 2008, 12:32 PM, said:

I think he means as compared to something like this (our M33)...I can see where pinching the stern would cost space.

I understand, and to some extent I agree. My point was that the designer can add the pointed stern on the back of whatever cockpit you like.

[tdwombat]

Soñadora, on Sep 17 2008, 05:59 AM, said:

There's something to be said about a nice piece o' ass.



1st choices: Baba (30,35,40), Panda (40), Valiant, Pacific Seacraft (crealocks), Tayana 37,
2nd choices: Westsails, Nor'Sea, Southern Cross, Gale Force, F(something), Fisher, and tons of others.

Personally, though the HCs look tough and homey, they also look dumpy. Especially the 33.

edit: that 'F(something)' is the Fast Passage 44.

Methinks the Passport 42 deserves to get a run in that team. I'm not a fan of all of Huntingford's designs but that one works. Fabulous interior and sails quite well in light airs (which surprised me). Also known as Solar 42 and Slocum 43. BP mentions the P42 in passing in his book but given that they share more than a vague resemblance to the Valiant I'd love to hear his opinion on the design. Personally I think the P42 has a nicer interior than most while the aft cabin is far more usuable than the others you mention. I'm too old to be crawling into a cave berth. (we were contemplating buying one earlier this year.)

Looking at the Young Sun, I think more motor sailor than anything else and I did read somewhere that they have deck and hull core problems.

Of your list Sons, I like the Valiants and the Crealocks myself.

ps - Palindrome has got to be the cleverest name ever for a double ender. Well it made me smile.....

Most, if not all of the boats mentioned are of course not your tradition double ender a la Colin Archer and the the old WestSails...wetsnails indeed......the Archer fanatics won't like that you know...best boats ever built....along with the Spray of course..... :rolleyes:

[palindrome]

Soñadora, on Sep 16 2008, 02:03 PM, said:

I don't miss an outboard hung rudder, but I sure do like looking at them. Nicest feature of a Wetsnail IMO.

Does make fitting an tillerpilot a bit of a bother, not too many people make tiller pilots for a 26,000 pound boat. And believe me when she starts to blow you can tell that you are over canvassed.

Pal

[pipsqueak]

if you're interested in little known double enders in that size XTR, here's one to add to that list; the prairie 32.
i don't think there are very many of them. its my understanding that they have a stainless steel compression band glassed into the hull that runs under the mast step and circles the hull.
link to a not so great example: http://www.sailingte...ecutter32a.html
owners review: http://www.everythin...amp;boat_id=678
very small cockpit:

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[palindrome]

Soñadora, on Sep 16 2008, 02:03 PM, said:

I don't miss an outboard hung rudder, but I sure do like looking at them. Nicest feature of a Wetsnail IMO.

For those of you with Canoe Stern Tiller Envy

[Gatekeeper]

Pal

I love your boat (honest, very impressed)...but I am not a lover of tillers. Give me a wheel any day.

Somebody must have pissed off Bob, I thought he would have chimed in by now. I think he still has a soft spot for double enders.


Dan

[afterguy]

On a couple of occasions I've heard Bob Perry say that canoe sterns are mostly useful for sailing backwards around the world. There are lots of reasons to not use canoe sterns on cruising boats. They have lousy storage space and make it difficult to board the boat from the water. It goes without saying that there is no designer on earth who'd put a canoe stern on a race boat, they're slow regardless of whether you're racing or not. Why did he design the Valiant 50 with one? Because that's what "Valiants look like" and that's what his customer asked for.

FYI Young Suns were a ripoff of a Perry design, for which he received no royalties. I'm sure he's still justifiably pissed about this 30 yrs later.

[palindrome]

afterguy, on Sep 16 2008, 08:18 PM, said:

On a couple of occasions I've heard Bob Perry say that canoe sterns are mostly useful for sailing backwards around the world. There are lots of reasons to not use canoe sterns on cruising boats. They have lousy storage space and make it difficult to board the boat from the water. It goes without saying that there is no designer on earth who'd put a canoe stern on a race boat, they're slow regardless of whether you're racing or not. Why did he design the Valiant 50 with one? Because that's what "Valiants look like" and that's what his customer asked for.

FYI Young Suns were a ripoff of a Perry design, for which he received no royalties. I'm sure he's still justifiably pissed about this 30 yrs later.

Hmm I will pick apart your logic point by point

1) Lousy storage? well most canoe stern boat have more traditional hull forms which equal deep bilges and lots of storage vs flat hulls and fin keels and no bilge storage.
2) There is no point in putting a racing stern on a cruising boat, lets face it modern race boat are wet sleds, fast yup but purpose made. Hard to cruise in rocky areas with twin spade rudders hanging out there and a 10 foot keel.
3) Is any boat easy to board under cruising conditions, such as a 10 foot sea and 25 knots?
4) Slow hmmm define slow, 1.32x square root of water line is hull speed, it is not a function of stern type on a displacement hull form. I suppose I had better return all the plaques we won racing.
5) Why did Bob designed the 42 with a canoe stern, because thats what worked customer demand came after.
6) Young Suns may have been a rip off but no one rips of a shitty idea, no point.

Are canoe sterns for everyone, no of course not, but don't knock it unless you've tried it. and as for Backwards around the world I think there are lots of Valiant 42 owners who would disagree with Bob.

Pal

[tdwombat]

afterguy, on Sep 17 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

On a couple of occasions I've heard Bob Perry say that canoe sterns are mostly useful for sailing backwards around the world. There are lots of reasons to not use canoe sterns on cruising boats. They have lousy storage space and make it difficult to board the boat from the water. It goes without saying that there is no designer on earth who'd put a canoe stern on a race boat, they're slow regardless of whether you're racing or not. Why did he design the Valiant 50 with one? Because that's what "Valiants look like" and that's what his customer asked for.

FYI Young Suns were a ripoff of a Perry design, for which he received no royalties. I'm sure he's still justifiably pissed about this 30 yrs later.

I was very pleasantly surprised by the amount of storage space in the P42 but while not transom stern, like the Valiants they are much rounder in the bum than something like an Archer. Really the pure, almost symetrical sharp double ender stern is very different, much sharper, and I wonder whther that was what BP was referring to.

Ref the Young Sun, I wondered that about the P42 as well.

As for racing canoe sterns have a look at a thing called Helsal. Ok, it was some years back but a fella by the name of Adams designed that old girl and she took line in the Syd-Hob in 1973 beating off Apollo, Siska, Raggamuffin, Pacha and Prospect of Whitby none of whom were slouches. The following year Helsal returned and come in 4th over the line behind Ondine II, Ballyhoo and Buccaneer. Not bad for thing dubbed the Floating Footpath...I did mention she was ferro , didn't I ?

For sure the modern flat bottomed speed machines are in a class of their own but given that BP made his reputation with the Valiant, long spoken of as the mother of the performance cruiser something doesn't add up.