[bistros]

Here's the idea:

My nine soon to be ten year old son enjoys sailing with me! That's a good thing, as in a couple years he will probably think I'm the dumbest/nerdiest/uncoolest father on the planet and he won't want to be seen anywhere near me.

I want to build a "kid's" boat for him to sail, but I don't want it to be a dishwasher packing crate (Opti) or some similar thing. Ideally, it would be a strip planked homebuilt O'pen Bic type "cool" boat. He's watched the O'pen Bics at the club, and thinks they are cool. Given the impending recession and Bush-league economic disaster, I think spending >$3K on an O'pen Bic is irresponsible when I expect things to get much worse financially.

He's been spoiled performance-wise - sailing with me in skiffish boats has set his speed and excitement thresholds too high to sell him on much less. He whoops and yells like it is a carnival ride when we're blasting around together.

Here are my initial requirements:

- Easily rightable by a 90-100 pound child - this also means it does NOT have to be keelboat stable
- Light enough to move around by a child (50-60 pounds hull weight)
- Big enough so he could take out a friend
- Simple to rig, sail and de-rig
- Fast enough to plane
- Unstayed mast
- "Cool" enough looking
- Self bailing, open transom, easy to enter from water
- Fun enough that he'll let me sail my singlehand skiff by myself!
- Winter garage project
- Generally light wind venue with little real waves
- Don't care about racing or an established class & society - he's a loner with no "pack animal" instincts (comes by it honestly)

Any ideas about possible designs? If needed, I may take lines off an O'pen Bic and start there as a baseline. I think the O'pen Bic is a little small, but maybe that's my adult perspective.

Ideas?

[Mike V.]

bistros, on Oct 10 2008, 05:46 AM, said:

Here's the idea:

My nine soon to be ten year old son enjoys sailing with me! That's a good thing, as in a couple years he will probably think I'm the dumbest/nerdiest/uncoolest father on the planet and he won't want to be seen anywhere near me.

I want to build a "kid's" boat for him to sail, but I don't want it to be a dishwasher packing crate (Opti) or some similar thing. Ideally, it would be a strip planked homebuilt O'pen Bic type "cool" boat. He's watched the O'pen Bics at the club, and thinks they are cool. Given the impending recession and Bush-league economic disaster, I think spending >$3K on an O'pen Bic is irresponsible when I expect things to get much worse financially.

He's been spoiled performance-wise - sailing with me in skiffish boats has set his speed and excitement thresholds too high to sell him on much less. He whoops and yells like it is a carnival ride when we're blasting around together.

Here are my initial requirements:

- Easily rightable by a 90-100 pound child - this also means it does NOT have to be keelboat stable
- Light enough to move around by a child (50-60 pounds hull weight)
- Big enough so he could take out a friend
- Simple to rig, sail and de-rig
- Fast enough to plane
- Unstayed mast
- "Cool" enough looking
- Self bailing, open transom, easy to enter from water
- Fun enough that he'll let me sail my singlehand skiff by myself!
- Winter garage project
- Generally light wind venue with little real waves
- Don't care about racing or an established class & society - he's a loner with no "pack animal" instincts (comes by it honestly)

Any ideas about possible designs? If needed, I may take lines off an O'pen Bic and start there as a baseline. I think the O'pen Bic is a little small, but maybe that's my adult perspective.

Ideas?

What happens if you scale down a Quetzal or even a Swift Solo? Obviously compromises ensue -- but maybe at that level they will not be as critical. If the look of stripped construction is not a requirement, you'd probably go a long way to a decent boat by doing a 3/4 Quetzal... no idea what rig to put on it, others no doubt will.

FWIW, I think this is a lovely idea -- but by the time I finshed one, my kid would be 18...

M

[TeamFugu]

It seems you already have connections. How about a downsized Quetzal using a windsurfer mast and either cutting a windsurfer sail down to work or having something else made?

Or you could just ask hime what kind of sailing he'd like to do. If you want it easy to right, either don't give the boat very much volume or don't go with wide wings like the Swift. That way the boat will float low enough for the board to be grabbed by your son. I think I'd keep it around 12' long and maybe max 4' wide. You could go a little wider than many skiffs but give the hull a similar shape. It might be fun to fit the boat with both hiking straps and even the ability to add a larger sail and a trap if he decides he wants to hit rockstar status. After watching my kids grow, my daughter just hit 18, I think we parents hold them back more than they do. Let him decide if he wants to get on the wire. I think I first got on a trap around 12 mostly because that is about when I started sailing. If your son gets up for challenges, he'll probably be using the trap a lot.

Also, if you build him a boat and he likes it, you'll never be that stupid old fool. You will get dumber and dumber until he has kids but then that is life. If you force the boat on him, it will be bad for both of you. Involve your son in the full process from design, through construction, and of course to on the water and you'll give him a lessons in life, love, and sailing that will stay with the two of you for life.

[Doug Lord]

Have you considered a small catamaran?
http://www.multihull.../vudu_magic.pdf
Entry Level kids multihull thread: http://boatdesign.ne...ead.php?t=19614
optikat from Dix site:

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[bistros]

Mike V., on Oct 10 2008, 09:00 AM, said:

What happens if you scale down a Quetzal or even a Swift Solo? Obviously compromises ensue -- but maybe at that level they will not be as critical. If the look of stripped construction is not a requirement, you'd probably go a long way to a decent boat by doing a 3/4 Quetzal... no idea what rig to put on it, others no doubt will.

FWIW, I think this is a lovely idea -- but by the time I finshed one, my kid would be 18...

M

I could approach Eric and get him to scale down the Quetzal, but I wanted to throw out the idea to the forum to see what's been done already. I also am sick of a lot of the D/A forum threads (Holy Frijoli's Batman, we've been "foiled" again!), so I thought a new sailing dinghy thread would be worthwhile. I'm tired of two percent of the people dominating eighty percent of the forum traffic.

I think this idea has some merit, because we're talking little kids here, we're talking about a homebuild option, and I think with the tough financial times ahead we're all going to need some cheap thrills. A lot of consumer goods / marketing companies are going to bite the dust in the near future, and I see low cost / higher effort homebuild projects are a real growth area in the near future. The original dinghy revolution took place in the post-depression era and it was mainly a homebuild effort. The homebuild's from the 1930's - Snipes, Lightnings, Stars all are still sailed today.

[bistros]

Doug Lord, on Oct 10 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

Have you considered a small catamaran?
http://www.multihull.../vudu_magic.pdf
Entry Level kids multihull thread: http://boatdesign.ne...ead.php?t=19614
optikat from Dix site:

Hadn't considered a multihull. I'm concerned about "rightable by a 90-100 pound kid", so I would need some convincing about a cat. I also think a small cat would be far less launch, retrievable and riggable by a little kid. I'm interested in creating a package HE can do everything by himself, allowing me to do my thing.

[doghouse]

bistros, on Oct 10 2008, 09:53 AM, said:

Mike V., on Oct 10 2008, 09:00 AM, said:

What happens if you scale down a Quetzal or even a Swift Solo? Obviously compromises ensue -- but maybe at that level they will not be as critical. If the look of stripped construction is not a requirement, you'd probably go a long way to a decent boat by doing a 3/4 Quetzal... no idea what rig to put on it, others no doubt will.

FWIW, I think this is a lovely idea -- but by the time I finshed one, my kid would be 18...

M

I could approach Eric and get him to scale down the Quetzal, but I wanted to throw out the idea to the forum to see what's been done already. I also am sick of a lot of the D/A forum threads (Holy Frijoli's Batman, we've been "foiled" again!), so I thought a new sailing dinghy thread would be worthwhile. I'm tired of two percent of the people dominating eighty percent of the forum traffic.

I think this idea has some merit, because we're talking little kids here, we're talking about a homebuild option, and I think with the tough financial times ahead we're all going to need some cheap thrills. A lot of consumer goods / marketing companies are going to bite the dust in the near future, and I see low cost / higher effort homebuild projects are a real growth area in the near future. The original dinghy revolution took place in the post-depression era and it was mainly a homebuild effort. The homebuild's from the 1930's - Snipes, Lightnings, Stars all are still sailed today.

Bill, the Paper Jet is sort of that. I know you looked at it before, but it's compromises you noted earlier are intended to fit in that area I think you are looking at. Not sure about righting it though, but it might be worth further investigation

Dudley put a link to his website on the ECS forum last night.

[Crabalocker]

Here's my take...

Patterned closely after the O'pen Bic, but buildable at home with the kid's Dad in the family garage.

Virtually all the same dimensions for the hull. The sail area is just slightly bigger at 56 sq. ft. The sail is a very simple, luff socked item that can be either Mylar or in less finnicky Dacron.

The boat can be shoved in the back of any full sized pickup and with the tailgate down, will not stick out past the end of the gate. The mast is two piece, can be either filament wound glass (essentially, an economy windsurf stick) or, in much less expensive 6061T6 aluminum. The transom is wide open, so no bailing necessary. Once graphically painted and the sail decorated with vinyl transfers to match, this will be a real eye-catching hotrod for small dudes and dudesses.

This is a simple, stitch and glue boat with a mast pocket and an interlocked internal grid for stiffness and deck support. The boat is built in 4mm marine ply with epoxy/glass laminates.

Simple to build, very easy to sail and easily righted by a kid of ten years old. One string and one stick and the kid is off to join all his buddies on the water.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

 Cabrillo_bow_obl_w.jpg (31.98K)
Number of downloads: 155  Cabrillo_cutaway_view.jpg (136.26K)
Number of downloads: 105

[doghouse]

Chris, that looks great. Love it.

[Mike V.]

bistros, on Oct 10 2008, 06:53 AM, said:

I think this idea has some merit, because we're talking little kids here, we're talking about a homebuild option, and I think with the tough financial times ahead we're all going to need some cheap thrills. A lot of consumer goods / marketing companies are going to bite the dust in the near future, and I see low cost / higher effort homebuild projects are a real growth area in the near future. The original dinghy revolution took place in the post-depression era and it was mainly a homebuild effort. The homebuild's from the 1930's - Snipes, Lightnings, Stars all are still sailed today.

I hadn't thought of the economics part, but you may be right on the mark there, too. Are we allowed to say "depression" now? I thought that was like saying the name of the devil and making him appear...

Chris Ostlind, on Oct 10 2008, 07:22 AM, said:

Here's my take...

Patterned closely after the O'pen Bic, but buildable at home with the kid's Dad in the family garage.

Virtually all the same dimensions for the hull. The sail area is just slightly bigger at 56 sq. ft. The sail is a very simple, luff socked item that can be either Mylar or in less finnicky Dacron.

The boat can be shoved in the back of any full sized pickup and with the tailgate down, will not stick out past the end of the gate. The mast is two piece, can be either filament wound glass (essentially, an economy windsurf stick) or, in much less expensive 6061T6 aluminum. The transom is wide open, so no bailing necessary. Once graphically painted and the sail decorated with vinyl transfers to match, this will be a real eye-catching hotrod for small dudes and dudesses.

This is a simple, stitch and glue boat with a mast pocket and an interlocked internal grid for stiffness and deck support. The boat is built in 4mm marine ply with epoxy/glass laminates.

Simple to build, very easy to sail and easily righted by a kid of ten years old. One string and one stick and the kid is off to join all his buddies on the water.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

Cabrillo_bow_obl_w.jpg Cabrillo...way_view.jpg

That seems like a cool little boat. What's it called? Any built yet?

[Crabalocker]

Mike V., on Oct 10 2008, 08:31 AM, said:

That seems like a cool little boat. What's it called? Any built yet?

Thanks Mike and Doghouse.

I'm calling the boat Cabrillo. That's the name of the beach where I learned to sail with the Sea Scouts so many years ago inside the L.A. Harbor. Most sailors nowadays refer to the location as Hurricane Gulch and they prefer to use the Cabrillo name for the beach outside the breakwater.

Hurricane Gulch is the cherished location for testing high performance prototypes and sailing fast beach cats, windsurfers, etc., as it frequently gets really piping winds on most summer afternoons and the water is virtually flat.

An example has not yet been built, but that will change in the next couple of months. I'm building the first one in my shop this winter. Should go quickly as there isn't much to it. I'm going to be offering plans for $30 on Duckworks and they will be an instant download via a collection of .pdf files. Plans like this usually go for more, but I'm more interested in seeing lots of kids out on the water getting into sailing on their own boat, than I am in milking a few bucks out of the process.

Chris

[J Buoy]

Nice Chris!

[JimC]

http://www.firebug.co.nz/

*Serious* Pedigree - Designed by John Spencer (Ragtime etc etc)

How it Goes Together
Length: 2.4 m (8 feet)
Beam (width): 1.2 m (4 feet)
Weight: 40 kg (88 lbs)
Sail Area: 4.5 sq m (48.5 sq feet)

Materials
Construction is plywood and timber. Plywood thickness is 4 mm (3/16") except for the bottom which is 9 mm (3/8"). Glue, nails and some screws hold it all together.

Design Features
The design is optimised for foolproof construction. Some of the features that make building easier are:

1. The deck is dead flat. This means that the top surface of the building jig (it is built upside down) is the datum for setting up. So, provided that the jig is set up level with a centreline, accurate assembly is assured.

2. The hull shape repeats, ie starting at the centre of the cockpit, the shape is the same in both directions. This repetition means that the two cockpit bulkheads are identical and the stern is the same shape as occurs under the mast. If you took the after end one station (module) further the boat would be double ended, just like the Auckland's Devonport ferry.

3. The angle at each of the chines is the same for the entire length. The chines and gunwales therefore have the same cross section for their entire length, ie no complicated shaping.

4. Marking out. All of the above features mean that lofting (marking out) is relatively simple. Full sized patterns are available if required.

5. The bottom is exactly a half sheet of ply. This is a check on straightness. When this is fitted in place any inaccuracies which have occurred are made clear and can be corrected.

6. Thick bottom ply. The ply which forms the bottom is 9 mm (3/8") thick. This initially appears excessive but there are good reasons:
It needs to be strong for crunching rocks on the beach, bumping ramps etc.
It is also the cockpit floor - extra strength means no need for floorboards.
It spreads the loads from the mast .
Weight low down helps stability.



http://www.firebug.co.nz/images/gallery/hi_res/g17.jpg

[wind_apparent]

Chris Ostlind, on Oct 10 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

An example has not yet been built, but that will change in the next couple of months. I'm building the first one in my shop this winter. Should go quickly as there isn't much to it. I'm going to be offering plans for $30 on Duckworks and they will be an instant download via a collection of .pdf files. Plans like this usually go for more, but I'm more interested in seeing lots of kids out on the water getting into sailing on their own boat, than I am in milking a few bucks out of the process.

Another great idea Chris. (how do you do it?) I just happen to have a 10 year old bugging me to "help her" build a boat (she's been helping me with mine) and I also have a seven year old that will "have to" have one once she see's her big sister having so much fun.....I would be very interested in a set of your plans. Please PM me as soon as they are available. I'll probably have some extra carbon laying around, maybe just make the skins out of that, clear coat, add some little I14 style racks, super bling kids boat. :D

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[CapSizer]

The South African Dabchick has featured on these pages before, if you want to do a search, and would satisfy your requirements pretty well, I think: http://www.dabchick.za.net/

[Mike V.]

wind_apparent, on Oct 10 2008, 08:53 AM, said:

Chris Ostlind, on Oct 10 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

An example has not yet been built, but that will change in the next couple of months. I'm building the first one in my shop this winter. Should go quickly as there isn't much to it. I'm going to be offering plans for $30 on Duckworks and they will be an instant download via a collection of .pdf files. Plans like this usually go for more, but I'm more interested in seeing lots of kids out on the water getting into sailing on their own boat, than I am in milking a few bucks out of the process.

Another great idea Chris. (how do you do it?) I just happen to have a 10 year old bugging me to "help her" build a boat (she's been helping me with mine) and I also have a seven year old that will "have to" have one once she see's her big sister having so much fun.....I would be very interested in a set of your plans. Please PM me as soon as they are available. I'll probably have some extra carbon laying around, maybe just make the skins out of that, clear coat, add some little I14 style racks, super bling kids boat. :D

I wonder if my girl at age 7 (going on 18) would be interested in building... I will cautiously approach the topic...

Chris, would the Cabrillo swamp if I hopped in too? I weigh 165 195 pounds...

M

[MJR]

you people are all crazy! the fella should build a duck racer. can be built with $40 worth of crap from homie depot.

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[fdsailor]

This is something I started last year when I saw the O'pen Bic and couldnt believe how much they wanted for it. Its clearly influenced by its styling, but in other areas I tried to make it better. the foils are more efficient, and its lighter and has that square top main (lower centre of effort for the same area, which means the bow can be a tad finer although I might reduce the size of the top a bit). Its still a W.I.P. but the main idea is a club boat that will cost £500 (so it can compete with games consoles), be put together by groups of youngsters or families, and be funky looking to boot.

Its 4mm okoume marine ply, stitch and glue (like Chris' boat)
Foils are cedar core/glass sheathed and shaped using a jig I'm developing for shaping my FD foils
Mast is an old Windsurfer mast which is sanded back to laminate and extra carbon uni added
Sail is a polytarp (to fit the budget) or monofilm mylar effort - plans for both are to be supplied with the main building plans as its not that different from building a ply boat!
The plan is also to have 2 rigs to allow the boat to 'grow' a bit with the youngsta...

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[plaanaa]

F12 cat. http://www.plaanaa.c...php?f=35&t=2225 lots of blaa blaa also in english at my forums, some pics too, and links to english sites. One built in Finland and second is under construction. There's a pic of a kid sailing alone with the cat if you scroll down the page. That's something I need to build to my kid some day!!

[Doug Lord]

This whole concept, and particularly the D12, seems like a great way to introduce a kid to fast sailing.
Some of the pictures referenced above(post 19) and from Gustavssons blog(D12):

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[bistros]

All:

Great feedback so far - I remembered seeing Chris' preliminary design effort a couple years ago when we were in touch - I was hoping the idea was still around.

It is interesting that a few people have had the same general criteria - and that it has caused some real design effort so far. It seems my general requirements are shared by others. I'd like people to keep on posting ideas - it's nice to see what's happening around the world.

I did like the rational on the Firebug for the overstrength hull bottom. Kid's just don't care about dragging a boat up a ramp - they live in a world without consequence.

Keep up with the ideas. I'm going to build something!

--
Bill

[wind_apparent]

Chris Ostlind, on Oct 10 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

Virtually all the same dimensions for the hull. The sail area is just slightly bigger at 56 sq. ft. The sail is a very simple, luff socked item that can be either Mylar or in less finnicky Dacron.
Cabrillo_bow_obl_w.jpg Cabrillo...way_view.jpg

Chris, do you have any pis of the rig? I like the squaretop idea.

[planenut]

wind_apparent, on Oct 10 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Chris Ostlind, on Oct 10 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

Virtually all the same dimensions for the hull. The sail area is just slightly bigger at 56 sq. ft. The sail is a very simple, luff socked item that can be either Mylar or in less finnicky Dacron.
Cabrillo_bow_obl_w.jpg Cabrillo...way_view.jpg

Chris, do you have any pis of the rig? I like the squaretop idea.

How about Dudley Dix Paper Jet 14.

[bistros]

planenut, on Oct 10 2008, 08:34 PM, said:

How about Dudley Dix Paper Jet 14.

The PaperJet is aimed at a larger child than a ten year old. It is bigger, heavier and more powerful than an O'pen Bic style boat even with the single sail, unstayed mast option in place.

This summer I watched a large herd of children sailing in an O'pen Bic Unregatta, and kids around 80-90 pounds were righting boats effortlessly by grabbing the daggerboard and pulling down from within the water. These same kids were dragging their boats on dollies up the dinghy ramps unassissted.

My single hand skiff (Falco) is about the same size at less weight than a PaperJet - there is no way my son could handle a boat of that size unassissted. If he was 12-13 years old and 120-130 pounds I'd consider a PaperJet type boat.

[oregonarchist]

Bump.

Very cool thread. I have been kicking around ideas like these for a couple years, especially the part about using windsurfing masts/sails, which I have plenty of laying around...