918 replies to this topic

[Joli]

It is always interesting to look at adds and try to understand who's the target market. Perusing Cruising World and Sail the least expensive boat advertised is at least $400k, certainly these buyers will be very well heeled. Most of the adds are for Hylas 54's Out Bound 52's Morris 46's, Tartan 37's, Beneteau 49's..........

Have all the builders given up on the bottom end, is the starter boat dead? With no or few small pocket cruisers buing built will the used market dry up for affordable small boats?

[Bob Perry]

Joli:
I was driving home last night thinking of the same thing.
I have long had an idea for a 21' pocket cruiser. It is pretty much worked out in my head in terms of hull and deck.
I know you have the huge and beautiful C&C but that's not even on the horizon for most of us.
But damn it. Just getting out there and putting along from harbor to harbor is sure fun. And I find that the more shit I remove from the process the more I like it. If you don't have it, it can't break down.

Maybe its time for the WLYDO to tackle a pocket cruiser.

[sailman]

Joli:
I was driving home last night thinking of the same thing.
I have long had an idea for a 21' pocket cruiser. It is pretty much worked out in my head in terms of hull and deck.
I know you have the huge and beautiful C&C but that's not even on the horizon for most of us.
But damn it. Just getting out there and putting along from harbor to harbor is sure fun. And I find that the more shit I remove from the process the more I like it. If you don't have it, it can't break down.

Maybe its time for the WLYDO to tackle a pocket cruiser.

After the 32er, certainly!

Joli,

I think that other builders have given up on the market which Catalina and Hunter have sewn up. It is a similar business model as Walmart, price point! KMart lost that battle and are now a Sears hybrid. Target took a different take on the same demographic, but expanded it up, and chose to up quality and product levels while still hitting price points.

I think the only builder today who seems to be willing to test demographics is JBoats. Look at the depth of their line in terms of designed use. Granted they are utilitarian and not the most beautiful boats out there, but the brand recognition is there when you see one in a harbour or out sailing. It would be interesting to see if Tiger Boat Works would be willing to try a cruising brand. They already have a production facility, just change some of the focus on the build and fitting and you could go with low cost budget cruisers.

Just some ramblings...

Will Museler

[MoeAlfa]

I barely look at those magazines, but aren't Hunter still advertising their smaller boats? Another observation: In my meager experience, women seem to like larger boats and I get the sense that the mags are targeting them more these days.

As for getting out there and putting along, that's about what we do in a relatively fancy 40'er.

[Gatekeeper]

I look around our harbour and see boats from a forgotten era...Siren 17, CS 22, Sirius 21, Matilda 20...and the BIG boats that made all the commotion when the arrived in the 80's, the Tanzer 26 and the VERY luxurious CS27

In today's market place our 33 is almost a pocket cruiser!!

[Ryley]

Joli,
maybe the reason they don't target the bottom end is because yesterday's top end boat is tomorrow's bottom end starter. I'm so sick of the new manufacturing and the advert-articles that tell us that "50' is the new 40'" No it isn't. As Bob points out, simple solutions mean fewer chances for stuff to break. Go to the boat shows and go on a the new Hunter 50 I think is, with almost no aft cabin but it has an f'ing whirlpool. WTF?? If people want low-cost starter boats, they go out and buy a used Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, or if they like quality builds then an original Tartan, Pearson, Freedom or something.

[sailSAK]

I look around our harbour and see boats from a forgotten era...Siren 17, CS 22, Sirius 21, Matilda 20...and the BIG boats that made all the commotion when the arrived in the 80's, the Tanzer 26 and the VERY luxurious CS27

In today's market place our 33 is almost a pocket cruiser!!

Matilda 20? Looked at one once. Neat boat. On further research I discovered it had a big sister, the Matilda 23. The 23 looks like it has all the accommodation of a 30 footer and would be capable of some extended cruising. Can we make one like this but modern & fast?



http://www.matildaow...3/gallery23.htm

[Gatekeeper]

Previous to buying his Douglas 31, one of our crewmen had one of these...now this is a "pocket" cruiser.

[WHL]

Agree on the pocket cruiser. I've been tinkering with some ideas for a while now with an 18ft pocket, but 22 or 23 seems like a good length. My wife's first trip on a boat was a Snapdragon 21 bilge keeler with skeg-hung rudder and an outboard in a well. It was sloooow upwind with lots of leeway, comfortable reaching, OK running with a chute, had 4 good sized berths, and a galley with 2 burner. The "nav" station was varnished plywood board about 2 x 3 that rested on the knees, and the fixes were visual + a hand-held RDF. In a couple of years in our early 20's, we had cruised most of the coast from the River Medway and Thames Estuary up to Burnham-on-Crouch and from Cherbourg to Oostende in all kinds of weather. The bilge keels, although slow and a drag to scrape and paint underneath, were really functional for gunkholing in sandy areas that dried out, which was what most of the those cruising grounds are like.

When you arrived somewhere, it felt like you had really achieved something

After the Snapdragon, we cruised for a year in a Westerly Cirrus 22ft with a 10hp volvo diesel, iron keel. Despite its boxy look, it was comfortable below and sailed very well on all points. Finally a cruising boat that pointed well to windward . We did the occasional local races across channel from Ramsgate with an IOR rating just under quarter ton. Good times

[Bob Perry]

Things start to heat up.

I'm thinking:
All waterline
Chines ( for fun) and stability
Plenty of beam
Raised foredeck
Big cockpit
Outboard
Portapotty ( I guess)
Plenty of draft ( of course)
Nice big rig
Outboard rudder
Two berths ( one big berth)

This could very well be our Christmas present to the office.
Something to do over those long, dark nights.

[sailman]

Things start to heat up.

I'm thinking:
All waterline
Chines ( for fun) and stability
Plenty of beam
Raised foredeck
Big cockpit
Outboard
Portapotty ( I guess)
Plenty of draft ( of course)
Nice big rig
Outboard rudder
Two berths ( one big berth)

This could very well be our Christmas present to the office.
Something to do over those long, dark nights.

Nice start. I am thinking of a Gary Mull Pocket Rocket hull but with the chines, maybe blend in a Lindenberg 22 hull. One big berth, raised bulb keel for trailering/gunkholing. Pop top cabin?

[pogen]

You lads should check some issues of Small Craft Advisor, I have been a subscriber for years....

Surfing the web recently, I came across the test report of a 42-foot motor yacht. The accompanying pictures showed an interior more sumptuous than anything I've lived in. The writer allowed it was indeed luxurious, but opined that other parts of the yacht adhered to "the minimalist school." Reading down further I found the price: $454,000. Minimalist indeed! In my opinion, the words "forty-two foot yacht" and "minimalist" have no business in the same sentence. It strikes me as similar to associating Atilla the Hun with a philanthropic group. A 14-foot mini-cruiser is minimalist. A 19 is comfortable, and anything much larger than a 25 borders on ostentatious.

News and reviews with heavy emphasis on pocket cruisers and minimalist cruising, usually on super-low budgets. Some of their technical contributors are kind of naive though.

[WHL]

Things start to heat up.

I'm thinking:
All waterline - check
Chines ( for fun) and stability - check (could make it an easier home build too)
Plenty of beam - check
Raised foredeck - check
Big cockpit - check (big enough to also sleep on deck with a boom tent)
Outboard - check
Portapotty ( I guess) - check
Plenty of draft ( of course) - check (dagger board?)
Nice big rig - check - swept single spreader, no backstay, flat top, fractional, assy, retractable sprit
Outboard rudder - check (in a cassette)
Two berths ( one big berth) - check
Galley - a gimbaled stove or even a single, gimbaled "Camping Gaz" like some mini transats.

This could very well be our Christmas present to the office.
Something to do over those long, dark nights.

[kent_island_sailor]

AFAIK, the target market for most boats outside of race boats seems to be wealthy retired people.
My wife and I sometimes toy with the idea of getting a trawler, renting another slip, and forgetting about having a house.
Even if I could afford a new one, even very big trawlers are layed out for 2 people and thus useless to us. I was wondering how long builders could concentrate on the retired millionaire market and ignore everything else. We may soon find out

[pogen]

even very big trawlers are layed out for 2 people and thus useless to us.

Why useless??

Most boats have too many berths for their enclosed volume, imho.

[Gatekeeper]

Most boats have too many berths for their enclosed volume, imho.

Agreed...we have kept our boats so they will be comfortable for 4 adults, yet we have NEVER had another couple cruise with us. Our friends have their own boats.

Give me a comfortable sleep cabin (fore or aft) and a convertable settee...and put the remaining space to more practical use.

[Nomenclature]

And I find that the more shit I remove from the process the more I like it.
If you don't have it, it can't break down.

That sums up my philosophy perfectly.
And you can't leave it all behind if you take it all with you.

[sailSAK]

Here is a crazy idea... If it is going to be in the 22-23 foot range with a moderate displacement how about an electric drive with hybrid option. An electric sail drive capable of a couple hours of operation with the possibility of installing a small genset (or future fuel cells ) if the owner wants extended range?

[Veeger]

When you spend the big bucks for a 'nice' boat, you often hope to have some friends join you for a cruise. Doesn't happen much, most friends that would join you either aren't attuned to boats and all or have their own boat. Might be nice to have an extra hand or two for an offshore passage though. The ole how many does it sleep issue now is really only a sign of a neophyte or a charter customer.

As for why all the big boats the only ones in the mags? Follow the money.

Little boats have little margins, big boats have big(ger) margins. Those one page ads cost multiple thousands every month per magazine. I've even heard up to $20K quoted. (found it hard to believe, but ...fwiw) Know any little boat builders with that kind of dough to put out every month on ads?

Pogen, that was going to be my suggestion as well. I find that its the one magazine these days that I'll pick up without thumbing through first, oh, and Wooden Boat. Your obs on their technical writers are very valid. Guess they don't pay authors much other than the warm fuzzy feeling of 'being in print'.

[B.J. Porter]

Joli:
I was driving home last night thinking of the same thing.
I have long had an idea for a 21' pocket cruiser. It is pretty much worked out in my head in terms of hull and deck.
I know you have the huge and beautiful C&C but that's not even on the horizon for most of us.
But damn it. Just getting out there and putting along from harbor to harbor is sure fun. And I find that the more shit I remove from the process the more I like it. If you don't have it, it can't break down.

Maybe its time for the WLYDO to tackle a pocket cruiser.

Pocket Cruiser Bob? Don't let Frank know, he thinks the market is sewn up.


Damned tough to sell people on a sport being "affordable" when they go to boat shows and see nothing but boats that cost more than a house.

It's a pretty big hole in the market now - if you want a < 30 feet knockabout weekender or boat a couple can spend a week on without killing each other there is very little new available. At least in something that is well built, affordable and can actually get out of it's own way under sail.

The question is - can the target demographic for a new sub $100K (or sub $50K) boat - which would be younger families & couples and people of more modest means - really afford it anyway? Or are they still better off looking for a 20+ year old Pearson?

The other question is can you sell something spare in a market where new houses are being built with more bathrooms than bedrooms?

[B.J. Porter]

When you spend the big bucks for a 'nice' boat, you often hope to have some friends join you for a cruise. Doesn't happen much, most friends that would join you either aren't attuned to boats and all or have their own boat. Might be nice to have an extra hand or two for an offshore passage though. The ole how many does it sleep issue now is really only a sign of a neophyte or a charter customer.

As for why all the big boats the only ones in the mags? Follow the money.

Little boats have little margins, big boats have big(ger) margins. Those one page ads cost multiple thousands every month per magazine. I've even heard up to $20K quoted. (found it hard to believe, but ...fwiw) Know any little boat builders with that kind of dough to put out every month on ads?

Pogen, that was going to be my suggestion as well. I find that its the one magazine these days that I'll pick up without thumbing through first, oh, and Wooden Boat. Your obs on their technical writers are very valid. Guess they don't pay authors much other than the warm fuzzy feeling of 'being in print'.

We've done friends and family on more than a few occasions on our boat. Took my parents to the Vineyard with us for ten days last summer, cousins to Block for a weekend, my grandfather to Cutty hunk, my father-in-law & his girlfriend for a couple of weekends, kids friends over night, etc.

It is true though that it never happens as much as you would expect or like - the number of standing invitations we have open to friends and family for a weekend off on the boat outstrips the available weekends, yet only a couple happen every year.

[Gatekeeper]

The older group that cruise at our club have become slaves to the 12v refrigerator!!

It consumes them!! They've become 12v junkies!!

[B.J. Porter]

The older group that cruise at our club have become slaves to the 12v refrigerator!!

It consumes them!! They've become 12v junkies!!

Amateurs. 24V is the new 12.

[sailman]

The older group that cruise at our club have become slaves to the 12v refrigerator!!

It consumes them!! They've become 12v junkies!!

Amateurs. 24V is the new 12.

Next thing you'll be saying 50Hz is the new 60Hz!

[kent_island_sailor]

Because we have a 7 year old and sleeping in the main cabin doesn't cut it for a permanent live-aboard situation. The old shool trawlers with cabins fore and aft are much better for families.
Actually even for a weeken they are better for families. I can't stand the powerboat mentality of huge "rooms" to make the wife feel like it is a condo and no f'n storage anyplace.

even very big trawlers are layed out for 2 people and thus useless to us.

Why useless??

Most boats have too many berths for their enclosed volume, imho.

[kent_island_sailor]

400 Hz is the new 60 Hz. 50 Hz is for euro-weenies who forget who invented light bulbs in the first place!
Actually 120 volts DC can be the new 60 Hz. When you have a battery bank that push 500 to 1,000 amps when shorted at 120 volts THEN you know you can really burn some shit down

The older group that cruise at our club have become slaves to the 12v refrigerator!!

It consumes them!! They've become 12v junkies!!

Amateurs. 24V is the new 12.

Next thing you'll be saying 50Hz is the new 60Hz!

[B.J. Porter]

400 Hz is the new 60 Hz. 50 Hz is for euro-weenies who forget who invented light bulbs in the first place!
Actually 120 volts DC can be the new 60 Hz. When you have a battery bank that push 500 to 1,000 amps when shorted at 120 volts THEN you know you can really burn some shit down

The older group that cruise at our club have become slaves to the 12v refrigerator!!

It consumes them!! They've become 12v junkies!!

Amateurs. 24V is the new 12.

Next thing you'll be saying 50Hz is the new 60Hz!

Frederick: It's not enough. More! More, do you hear me? Throw the third switch!

IGOR: (throwing the switch) Wait till he sees the bill.

[Gatekeeper]

Jeez...how did we get to this??

I was simply echoing the "keep it simple" sentiment.

[puddin]

Things start to heat up.

I'm thinking:
All waterline
Chines ( for fun) and stability
Plenty of beam
Raised foredeck
Big cockpit
Outboard
Portapotty ( I guess)
Plenty of draft ( of course)
Nice big rig
Outboard rudder
Two berths ( one big berth)

This could very well be our Christmas present to the office.
Something to do over those long, dark nights.

My favorite little boat of all time:

John Guzzwell design "Dolly"


About small boats, it's simple. First off, let me say that I don't hate rich people, am only a quazi-socialist, and don't blame all of the boomers' for the complete book of ills of the world, but that said, marketing follows the $$$. Ads pump it up. Margins are bigger for bigger boats. What we're really seeing is symtomatic of the shift generational wealth. Most people in their late 20's through mid 40's these days can't even begin imagining having the extra cash for not only a new boat, but moorage, maintenance, etc.... particularly if they've got college funds going. It's my humble opinion that the boat industry is building 'Hummers' for a very limited market. As a kid, I remember a very large boat in the marina being 40-42'. Most were 25'-35' back when the middle class was healthy. I think it's high time for some very good small boats (well designed, beautiful, etc...) to be brought to market for young families or most of us who don't have $200,000+ to drop. The re-introduction of the S2 is an indication that others are thinking this way as well, i.e, better to be building something and keep busy even if the profits are thin. I see this as a tremendously positive trend that will help revive and expand the demographic base of the sport, so yup, let's do a pocket cruiser!!! There's just something right about it.

Attached Files

•  docked_dolly.jpg   184.15K   168 downloads

[B.J. Porter]

My eight year old has already decided that she will own a West Wight Potter when she is older.

[jim lee]

Well,

We're -trying- to hit that elusive first timer, simple, weekending sailboat market...



The Left Coast Dart

I donno' if its going to be a hit or not. But when we're done, at least I'll have one for myself.

-jim lee

[puddin]

Looks great, Jim! What do you figure it'll cost?

Oh, another interesting development it the resurgence of the Moore 24. Still a great boat that could probably be brought back into production Those currently sailing are possibly the most fun you can have for > $12,000 ~ $15,000 with your pants on!

[SemiSalt]

In the approx 25-footer market, Hunter and Catalina have had a fling at water ballast. I assume it was in pursuit of trailerability, and perhaps pursuit of Macgreagor. The formula requires flush decks (or full width deck houses, if you prefer), and results in some of the ugliest boats I've ever seen. And if the outside looks like a bath tub, so does the inside. Sailing performance is mediocre, as least by the standards that I guess Bob is interested in being connected with.

I tried racing a Rhodes Mariner for a few years with my club's PHRF fleet, so I have some strong ideas.

First, make it a two sleeper. The Mariner looked like it slept four, but all the berths were too small for an average man.

Second, be sure the head can be used without deconstructing the interior. It can be under some sort of cover, but not under a cushion, or ....

Third, if you really want to sell some boats, be sure you can get it onto a trailer.

Fourth, make it stiff enough that it can be sailed by two people. This will inevitably mean that those used to sailing Santana 20s and J-22s with bigger (harder working) crews will feel it doesn't have enough sail. Tell them to go back to the boats they prefer.

Fifth, be generous with the cockpit.

Sixth, think about the OB very early in the game. Just sticking it on a bracket is not the best you can do.

[oregonarchist]

...snip

The question is - can the target demographic for a new sub $100K (or sub $50K) boat - which would be younger families & couples and people of more modest means - really afford it anyway? Or are they still better off looking for a 20+ year old Pearson?

The other question is can you sell something spare in a market where new houses are being built with more bathrooms than bedrooms?

I think that's the rub. Too many people wrapped up in the morebigger is morebetter mentality, so they "need" a bigger boat to satisfy their ego. It's a general mentality, at least in the US -- just look around at the houses people live in and the "cars" (SUV's) they drive.

Few people "need" a 40 ft boat any more than they "need" an Expedition to get groceries and shuttle the kids to soccer practice. Those who are "value conscious" buy used -- lots and lots to choose from. Fiberglass doesn't get old or wear out. The pieces parts do, but the hull doesn't, and new is (or at least feels like at the outset) lots more $. Whether they are truly "better off" is certainly debatable, as any of us working on a "fixer upper" can attest.

That said, I personally think that it is a great idea and a boat that size really would fill a needed niche.

[chester]

Well,

We're -trying- to hit that elusive first timer, simple, weekending sailboat market...



The Left Coast Dart

I donno' if its going to be a hit or not. But when we're done, at least I'll have one for myself.

-jim lee

Lief Bailey?....here we go.

[Nomenclature]

Well,

We're -trying- to hit that elusive first timer, simple, weekending sailboat market...





-jim lee

Looks like a slightly refined B 25. Which is a great boat that deserved greater success.
Is this going into production?

[sailSAK]

Well,

We're -trying- to hit that elusive first timer, simple, weekending sailboat market...



The Left Coast Dart

I donno' if its going to be a hit or not. But when we're done, at least I'll have one for myself.

-jim lee

Cool looking boat, but didn't Bob say "Cruiser"?
Am I the only one that doesn't want to crawl into a fast, wet, fiberglass coffin?
Can't something be made fast, light, and have enough room to stretch out in inside, without a cheesy poptop? What if you want to do some decent runs with the thing? Baha haha w/o the Baha Bash me thinking... Why not?
I remember a blog of a COUPLE that was cruising the Pacific in a Mini-Transat! Defiantly a pocket cruiser, but man would the old bones ache after that....
Give it some headroom!

[Gatekeeper]

A close friend has one of these...nobody does this class of boat better than the Brits!! Some great design ideas, and great use of space. Incredible craftmanship.

It probably is beyond the price point of a "starter" boat though.

http://www.themainsa...cle/mps/uan/186

[U20guy2]

For a little while in 06-07 I saw prices holding pretty high on the nice small cruisers and those that were well kept and 100% usable were being bought up with multiple people interested. I don't think the small boat - go simple thing has dissapeared. I think the builders and brokers are all after the big money - build one 40fter and you make 4X the profit off it than say a 28footer. Even if it takes you longer to sell it or build it the money is better.


I don't look at those mags much anymore either. Though I met a guy that probably fit the current trend/target customer for those adds. He was recently retired - was renting the house next door to my parents short term rental, really nice guy. He told me he was looking for a nice sailboat to live on and just cruise around on. He settled on a Hylas. And he's sent my mom post cards from several places now when he found out I was an SF sailor he was all excited and talked about the days when he crewed on race boats etc.

He's loving life has a nice boat - has space for his grand kids to visit or friends to go on adventures with him etc.

[Jose Carumba]

The idea of designing a pocket cruiser sounds great. The increasing size and price of modern sailboats has bugged me for some time. IMO Keeping things fairly simple works.

My wish list:
22'-24' "all waterline" as Bob said.
A decent cockpit for daysailing with friends but rigged for easy single handing.
"Sprightly" performance in light air with a fairly high SA/D, but able to handle a "blow" when reefed down.
Fractional rig.
Masthead asy downwind sails.
Traveller, adjustable (split) backstay, vang, and other tweakable sail controls.
2 single berths or one v-berth.
Stove, sink, ice chest.
Small oil heater or wood stove.
Outboard in a closed well a la a Thunderbird, or transom mounted. (A Torqueedo outboard with a large battery bank would be cool).
Simple instruments.

Small is good. There's too much of the Winnebago, bring everything with you mentality in boating these days. I like to sail, not fuss with systems.

The DArt looks cool.

Small Craft Advisor is a good mag. Another mag which features smaller boats is the British "Practical Boat Owner".

Joe

[jim lee]

Well,

We're -trying- to hit that elusive first timer, simple, weekending sailboat market...





-jim lee

Looks like a slightly refined B 25. Which is a great boat that deserved greater success.
Is this going into production?

Well, that would be because the B25 was our starting point. I really liked B25s and thought that something along those lines would make a neat machine for boppin' around the islands up here. (PNW San Juans) Something simple, like a sailing tent camper. But something that was fun (for me) to sail. I met up with Leif and this is what we cooked up.

I wouldn't want to take it on the Baja Haha. Too small in my book.

Yes, its going into production, as we type.

And no, I've no idea what its going to cost. We're trying to keep it reasonable.

-jim lee

[Bob Perry]

Nice boat and I wish you the best with it but it's not at all what I have in mind.

I am thinking a 21' boat with good sitting headroom and nice big hatch so there's hearoom somewhere.
I am thinking something that looks a bit unique. Leif's boat looks like a hundred other nice boats.
I will not start with any other boat. I will start with a blank sheet of paper (computer monitor).
CA can go off on any tangent they like but I think I'll stick to my initial image for my pocket cruiser.

There's no point in playing this game if we are just going to regurgitate a slightly modified version of what is typical today. That's not the way the WLYDO does it.
Is it?

I want to create something that does not exist now.
Just for the hell of it, imagine a hybrid between Leif's design and that thing on the cover of Small Craft Advisor posted earler.

[Slowboat]

This sounds like the same set of requirements that the original Nordic Folkboat was designed for in a post war economy. Cheap to build, fast, seaworthy, fit a family on it for a cruise.

There are still lots of them around the world doing just that.

[Bob Perry]

When I go below on my pocket cruiser I want a comfortable place to sit. I want sitting headroom and that means 39" over the seat, maybe 36" but less than that and it does not work.

I love the Folkboat but I want something new.
I am starting a set of lines today.

[Jose Carumba]

Nice boat and I wish you the best with it but it's not at all what I have in mind.

I am thinking a 21' boat with good sitting headroom and nice big hatch so there's hearoom somewhere.
I am thinking something that looks a bit unique. Leif's boat looks like a hundred other nice boats.
I will not start with any other boat. I will start with a blank sheet of paper (computer monitor).
CA can go off on any tangent they like but I think I'll stick to my initial image for my pocket cruiser.

There's no point in playing this game if we are just going to regurgitate a slightly modified version of what is typical today. That's not the way the WLYDO does it.
Is it?

I want to create something that does not exist now.
Just for the hell of it, imagine a hybrid between Leif's design and that thing on the cover of Small Craft Advisor posted earler.

I agree Bob, it should be unique to your vision and the WLYDO. That said (and I hate to bring up another design) are you thinking of a 21st century Stone Horse equivilent?

Joe

[Bob Perry]

Joe:
In a word, yes.
The raised deck is what we need for cruising volume and good sitting headroom We may need/want a small cabin trunk ( maybe just a really long raised companionway hatch) but it can be low and trim if we have sitting headroom under the side deck and with a raised deck design there is NO side deck. I just want that basic configuration marrieed to a thoroughly modern hull form. We cannot give away an inch of sailing length and we need stability so we have some flexibility with the keel.

[Zonker]

I was talking to PDQ when they were still in business. They stopped building the 32 because they made way more money with the bigger boats. Then they stopped building the 36 because they made way more money with the 42/44. Then suddenly nobody could afford them and they didn't make any money

[slap]

I'm surprised no one mentioned easy trailering the boat as a requirement.

[sailSAK]

I'm surprised no one mentioned easy trailering the boat as a requirement.

..cause we all know where that leads. Water ballast, swing keels, etc etc...
Easy trailering is better addressed by the trailer.
Extendable tongues, well designed bunks, rollers, & such go along ways for "easy trailering."
Let the trailer be the compromise; the beast of burden.
I don't care if my Prius can't tow it.
Don't compromise the boat.

[Joli]

Must have hit a nerve?

So, how do you build a 21~22 footer that the masses can afford?

I think it has to be tooled in China, it has to be molded in China, but it has to be assembled in the USA. Why? Shipping. How many hulls and decks can be nested in a high cube 40? How do you drive down shipping costs? Put more dollars in the container. If you cube out the container but don't max out the weigh then cast the keels in Chan also and max out the weight also. If you can get $250k worth of product in the conatiner (20 boats?) then shipping costs are minimized ~$260 per boat.

I'll be back, gotta go to a kid event.

[chester]

do not rule out the "pop top". i owned a CS 22 and the pop top (they called it a dodger) was the shit. that was a comfortable little boat, the vberth was huge, the settee comfortable and two people could stand up under the top. good pop tops can make a big difference in small boats.

[tdwombat]

Thanks God you said SITTING headroom BP. The thought of this little thing having standing headroom is dumb dumb dumb. Surely you can only achieve standing headroom in this sized pocket if you make the poor baby ugly. Not that please.

I love the idea of a modern Folkboat. Plenty of performance, sleep onboard overnight on occasions blah blah blah. At anchor rig a boom tent and open that great big hatch to stand up.

Lets face it, on a boat of this size sitting is all you will ever do. Trouble with a lot of pockets is that they try and stuff too much down below...KISS babies KISS.

Can't wait to see the lines.

Ummmmmm...does this mean the 32 is finished ? Certain lack of I dotting and T crossing....then again I guess this is all conceptual stuff so maybe the final details are not so important.

[Bob Perry]

No pop top.
It rains like crazy up here and a lot of the time it's cold. I want this boat to be dry and snug.

I have a set of lines now. No you can't see them. I have to wait and see how they layout works but so far it's sweet.
I don't want the raised deck to go all the way to the bow because I dont need the headroom there.
The beam is 8.4' but there is a chine so the BWL is much less.
There are 2" over total overhangs. And I may get rid of that.

Hey!
Check out the lastest BLUE WATER SAILING issue. Sons is a rock star and a hero!

Womby:
32 is not finished it's just side tracked until this rush of creativity passes.

[chester]

No pop top.

ok, i'm pouting now...

[Occams Razor]

Cal 20 top with a drop nose, and t-bird underbody?

[mpr]

No pop top.
It rains like crazy up here and a lot of the time it's cold. I want this boat to be dry and snug.

I have a set of lines now. No you can't see them. I have to wait and see how they layout works but so far it's sweet.
I don't want the raised deck to go all the way to the bow because I dont need the headroom there.
The beam is 8.4' but there is a chine so the BWL is much less.
There are 2" over total overhangs. And I may get rid of that.

Hey!
Check out the lastest BLUE WATER SAILING issue. Sons is a rock star and a hero!

Womby:
32 is not finished it's just side tracked until this rush of creativity passes.

The Cal 20 has raised deck, small Tanzer did, even the C&C 25.
I can't remember any raised decks from that time that DIDN'T go to the bow. But hey, this is purposely something new, right? The transition from raised deck to foredeck (pretty small); a challenge to make it look good.

Deep draft for performance and two person sailing; yes.
But, need or desire to trailer is important to many.
So, keep consideration of lifting bulb keels, Southerly type keel, centerboard etc etc alive (for now)

Great thread, look forward to drawings.

[Paps]

So you are thinking along these lines Bob, but with wider sterns?

 ranger_champs.jpg   183.09K   77 downloads
 Ranger_day.jpg   262.78K   62 downloads
 Smokin_Ranger.jpg   149.98K   77 downloads
 hood_23_2.jpg   23.27K   50 downloads
 hood_23.jpg   30.99K   21 downloads
 hood_23_sail.jpg   34.14K   37 downloads



Both the Hood 23 and my old Cole 23 had large pop tops with a sliding smaller hatch built in.

 cole_23.jpg   30.9K   22 downloads
 cole_hatch.jpg   27.48K   12 downloads


The aft end of the vee berth folded down to make the fwd end of a U dinette.

 cole_23_bunk.jpg   19.3K   12 downloads

[sailman]

The raised cabin just doesn't look right to my eye, how about a flush deck? Similar to a MORC boat, you can get light and ventilation through hatches, deck prisms, and vents.

[Paps]

The Rangers are a very healthy historic class based on Syd Hbr.

The Hood 23 was a local production boat (Warwick not Ted) that are still very popular.

[Point Break]

The raised cabin just doesn't look right to my eye, how about a flush deck? Similar to a MORC boat, you can get light and ventilation through hatches, deck prisms, and vents.

Then you'd be an old Columbia 29?

[Bob Perry]

Sailman:
Just leave it to me. I have come up with something and when I feel the time is right to unveil it I will. I need to work out a few of the kinks before I post it. Then we can kick the shit out of it.
The problem with a flush deck is that it gives you volume and headroom in areas where you don't need it.

Paps:
Yep, those are pretty close except for the "drop nose".

Chester, Chester,Chester:
Hang in there with me. Wait and see where I am trying to go with this.
We will find a spot for you in the WLYDO.

[Paps]

Sailman:
Just leave it to me. I have come up with something and when I feel the time is right to unveil it I will. I need to work out a few of the kinks before I post it. Then we can kick the shit out of it.
The problem with a flush deck is that it gives you volume and headroom in areas where you don't need it.

Paps:
Yep, those are pretty close except for the "drop nose".

Chester, Chester,Chester:
Hang in there with me. Wait and see where I am trying to go with this.
We will find a spot for you in the WLYDO.

Drop Nose!!!!! Not sure I like the sound of that Bob, but will hold my fire until I see it.

[Occams Razor]

Here's a different sort of treatment- sort of a sweep up instead of the old flat top. Sorry, board won't accept a .htm format

SF Bird Boat

[U20guy2]

Nice boat and I wish you the best with it but it's not at all what I have in mind.

I am thinking a 21' boat with good sitting headroom and nice big hatch so there's hearoom somewhere.
I am thinking something that looks a bit unique. Leif's boat looks like a hundred other nice boats.
I will not start with any other boat. I will start with a blank sheet of paper (computer monitor).
CA can go off on any tangent they like but I think I'll stick to my initial image for my pocket cruiser.

There's no point in playing this game if we are just going to regurgitate a slightly modified version of what is typical today. That's not the way the WLYDO does it.
Is it?

I want to create something that does not exist now.
Just for the hell of it, imagine a hybrid between Leif's design and that thing on the cover of Small Craft Advisor posted earler.

Hey Bob did you see the french 21footer being sold by the company based out of Colorado this past year? Damn the company name slips my mind. They had a few hulls built in Poland shipped to them in Colorado hulls and decks seperate where they finshed them up etc. They had a few different hulls. 25foot sport boat type rig - a columbia 28 looking rig - a little 24foot pilot house - and this french 21 footer. It had sitting head room - a small head on starboard side just inside the companionway ie aft quarter berth area. Was a cool concept they packed alot into it. I actually kinda digged the 24ft pilot house great views full standing room etc - looked kinda cool lots of people thought it looked kinda neat- they were all swing keel.

[SemiSalt]

Garden variety tabloid cruiser Jelly Bean

loa = 21'6",lwl = 19'6", beam = 8'8", draft = 4'7", disp = 4950 lbs.
Altogether big, but short.

Attached Files

•  JellyBean.jpg   246.99K   189 downloads

[Bob Perry]

I like that Garden boat. The difference is that mine will actually sail.
Give me a few more minutes.

Don't laugh now,,,,,,

 CA_21.pdf   117.52K   599 downloads


U20:
Wasn't that a Mini Transat boat?

[Kent H]

U20 are you talking about Kiwi Boat Works that became Freedom Boat Works of Colorado?

Poster AWKII?

Freedom Boat Works

Freedom 21 not to be confused with the Freedom 21 Catboat from the mid eighties

As I remember there were a lot of thumbs up on this boat until we figured out that the 441 lbs of internal ballest was water.

I could be wrong but I believe that most of these boats were intended to go after the Mac 26x owners who wanted something different.

Someone here bought the Sportboat that was at the Seattle show.

[U20guy2]

U20 are you talking about Kiwi Boat Works that became Freedom Boat Works of Colorado?

Poster AWKII?

Freedom Boat Works

Freedom 21 not to be confused with the Freedom 21 Catboat from the mid eighties

Yes thats it!!!! - Damn couldn't for the life of me think of the name
Freedom boat works - not the freedom most of us think of.

It was far from being a mini Transat boat- though it had that look about it. I could see a small family or a couple kicking between islands in the San Juans on one for a cheap/quick vacation. It wasn't heavy or really serious ocean material.

[outerbanks]

The problem with a flush deck is that it gives you volume and headroom in areas where you don't need it.

Exactly.
Now load 4 adults into the back and go for an afternoon sail. It feels weird hiking on a Coronado 25. Maybe traps? I love the windblock.

It would be nice to get crew weight seated forward, out of the cockpit, without having to suggest it....  coronado_schematic.jpg   20.25K   74 downloads

[U20guy2]

The f250c was a kick in the pants - looked like a boat I could see my self picking up if I was a crusty old sailor living on a fairly mellow body of water and wanted something to just kick around on and maybe spend a saturday night out at some favorite little local anchorage etc. Lake or San Juans etc. The views from the cabin were great- you could sit there read a book or paper with your coffee and watch an osprey -- well anyway you get my drift.

[Bob Perry]

U20:
I can see a small family in that boat too.
Husband 4'9"
Wife 4'1"
Kid 1 2'10:
Kid 2 2'2"

[U20guy2]

U20:
I can see a small family in that boat too.
Husband 4'9"
Wife 4'1"
Kid 1 2'10:
Kid 2 2'2"

Very possible. We had a slip right next to the 21footer working the U20 program at the Oakland show. I went and sat on all of their boats - I went back and sat on the pilot house like 3 times. It was just cool.

Nothing crazy fancy - pretty basic boats - with some fun features like the boarding ladders built into the bow - swing keel you just beach it kick the boarding ladder out and walk off the boat. Not sure howmany people would do that but the idea was kinda fun.

[cagey]

I'll just stick with my PSC Dana. Except for the built-in head and the middling-to-small cockpit it sounds like what
is often being described here. Sure, its pretty pricey, but you'll never wear it out. Better yet, mines paid for.

- kg

[Veeger]

Bob, that's really a VERY sweet looking little boat. Well done. Do you think you could do some sort of cat yawl rig on it? With a standing lug?? Varnished spars? huh, pretty please, huh, huh? (won't look like most others, that's for sure!)

[Bob Perry]

Veeger:
Thanks very much.
what you see there is about 2 hours of work. A friend had some bad news today and I was working with a lot of pent up energy/anger/rage whatever. I was using this project to vent. Of course I have been thinking about this boat for the last three years and at one time I did do some drawings. But I lost them.

I think a number of rigs can work on this boat. For now, seeing this is a project aimed at me, I
l draw the rig I like, a simple stayed sloop rig. Maybe I'll work on a rig for you next. Cat yawl? Why would you want a "cat yawl"?
That poor little mizzen will suffocate. .

[WHL]

Bob, I like that subtle chine, wide transom and overall hull shape and foils. Looks like it will sail well.
The displacement was initially a shock but in comparing its waterlines with a 25ft and change boat puts it in a better light. Coachroof aft looks good but I'm mulling on the forward profile and what the face of it would look like.

Re: the rig. With short LOD and 3,000lbs displacement, a square top, modern gaff or almost gunter-gaff would easily get the sail area up without an excessively tall rig. They would give it a classical heritage too but fast when combined with that hull.

Interesting.

[Nomenclature]

That looks good Bob.
A little bit Cal 20 and a little bit Rocket 22.

[Paps]

Love every thing except the poop scoop at the front Bob. Guess it would make a nice seat though.

[sailman]

I like that Garden boat. The difference is that mine will actually sail.
Give me a few more minutes.

Don't laugh now,,,,,,

 CA_21.pdf   117.52K   599 downloads


U20:
Wasn't that a Mini Transat boat?

Alright, the cabin could grow on me. I like the prod idea. Isn't that a ton of flare in the bow section?

[sailman]

Veeger:
Thanks very much.
what you see there is about 2 hours of work. A friend had some bad news today and I was working with a lot of pent up energy/anger/rage whatever. I was using this project to vent. Of course I have been thinking about this boat for the last three years and at one time I did do some drawings. But I lost them.

I think a number of rigs can work on this boat. For now, seeing this is a project aimed at me, I
l draw the rig I like, a simple stayed sloop rig. Maybe I'll work on a rig for you next. Cat yawl? Why would you want a "cat yawl"?
That poor little mizzen will suffocate. .

Since Greever hasn't chimed in, can we have a Pilot House version with a tug boat whistle?


ducking.....

[Ishmael]

In profile, it looks a lot like a Shark 24 (including the keel!), without the overhang and lazarette. In plan view, it's over 2 feet wider and carries the beam a lot further forward and aft. I like how the chine just kisses the water at rest.

Here's my first pocket cruiser:

 wayfarer_copy.jpg   126.32K   50 downloads

With a custom boom tent, this was way too much hassle as a camper cruiser, although we did sail the Gulf Islands in her. That's the PO looking possessive, on Redberry Lake in Saskatchewan. Nice chines, eh? One of these was sailed from Scotland to Iceland, doublehanded. Not by me, I'm not that much of a nutbar.

[puddin]

Bob,
Very nice! Love the max'd waterline and the prod! Two hours on the computer maybe, but 2~3 years festering in the back of the brain pan... often the best design work gets done in that very weird realm. I like the cabin. Please, no f*(&$^'ing pop top. No nut ball rigs, just a nice sloop rigged boat... Now just make cold molding and a wood or carbon spar optional! This is where you might be able to do a small swinging prod a la the mini's that would be great with a large asym.

Great start... this is going to be more a BP boat than a WLDYO effort, but that's fine.

[puddin]

I like that Garden boat. The difference is that mine will actually sail.
Give me a few more minutes.

Don't laugh now,,,,,,

 CA_21.pdf   117.52K   599 downloads


U20:
Wasn't that a Mini Transat boat?

Alright, the cabin could grow on me. I like the prod idea. Isn't that a ton of flare in the bow section?

bow flare is great in little boats... The Moore 24 just pops out of the water if you stick the bow in a wave.

[Paps]

The if it were mine version.

I have loved the Ranger look since I was a kid.

 CA_21_paps_vers.pdf   161.42K   217 downloads

[WHL]

In profile, it looks a lot like a Shark 24 (including the keel!), without the overhang and lazarette. In plan view, it's over 2 feet wider and carries the beam a lot further forward and aft. I like how the chine just kisses the water at rest.

Here's my first pocket cruiser:
 wayfarer_copy.jpg   126.32K   50 downloads
With a custom boom tent, this was way too much hassle as a camper cruiser, although we did sail the Gulf Islands in her. That's the PO looking possessive, on Redberry Lake in Saskatchewan. Nice chines, eh? One of these was sailed from Scotland to Iceland, doublehanded. Not by me, I'm not that much of a nutbar.

Frank Dye.. he and his wife sailed all over the North Sea. Their Iceland trip must have been a bit spooky at times. Solid boats and good to sail, and they'll get up and plane with no bad vices. I like them and thery're good as training dinghies. Big sister to the jack Holt designed Enterprise.
sorry.. back to the topic

[sailSAK]

Great looking little boat. Looks like it would go like hell off the wind. 3000lbs seems like a lot for a little boat, but that probably means it won't put you & your kiddies in the drink in a good puff... After all, if the FT10 just got a younger sibling to dish out that kind of treatment!
But she sure does look flat bottomed. It this it going go upwind in heavy chop ok? Think SF bay, or Hawaii where you get 20 knots on a daily basis. How would it do?

[Joli]

Looks good Bob. When we were kids we sailed/camped family of 6 for weekends on this. http://www3.sympatic...f/specpage.html
Little tight but it was fun none the less.

So, how do we keep it simple enough to bring to the market for $15k?

[Bob Perry]

Bow Flare:
Maybe it's time for a wee tutorial on hull lines.
Because the stem is plumb, by definition there can be no bow flare in this design.
I could have tortured the shape though and worked in some flare as I went aft ( Like the Saga 43) . But I did not.
I just don't see where you guys get the idea this boat has "flare".
Flare is a concavity to the bow sections. I see none because there is none.
Maybe it's a terminology issue.

Aesthetics:
I'm far from happy with what I have now. But, it's start and I will work with it.
Maybe the drop nose is not working.
I welcome all involved in the WLYDO to start chipping in.
It's more fun that way.

Displ:
3,000 is not heavy for a little cruising boat.
That's a D/L of 140. When has that become "heavy"?
The bottom is flattish because I think it is the shape I need to make this boat go fast and at the same time give me volume where I willneed it for a given displ.

Joli:
"Family of six"?
Give me time to lay the interior out. I had head placement dreams all night. I sholuld be able to do better than that.

I have to get some work done today. I dropped my project to jump on the 21'er yesterday and now I am behind.

[Gatekeeper]

Well done Robert...should be roomy, as well as a modern look that should turn some heads.

New boat owners are like kids...they want what they see on TV. They see the VOR, Maxi's, and race fleets. Gotta give'm what appeals to them.

If I were shopping for this type boat, as a new sailor, here would be my wish list.

-A proper marine head. Maybe under a removeable panel in the v-berth.
-simple sloop rig
-a dedicated area to strap down a cooler

Very impressive.

[Bob Perry]

I could not handle that cabin trunk profile.
Let's try this one.
I'll add 4" "side decks" to give it some definition.


 CA_21B.pdf   119.96K   365 downloads

[tdwombat]

Really like the hull, not so fussed on the cabin trunk. Somehow it doesn't flow. I guess obvious limitations with the height of the cabin is you need crouch and sit space. I think I'd probably prefer more of a flush deck forward.

Time to ponder.

[Bob Perry]

I cleaned it up a bit

 CA_21C.pdf   119.54K   329 downloads

[tdwombat]

I could not handle that cabin trunk profile.
Let's try this one.
I'll add 4" "side decks" to give it some definition.


 CA_21B.pdf   119.96K   365 downloads

Now that's better......Raven has that kind of look in her cabin....works well....

[sailman]

I cleaned it up a bit

 CA_21C.pdf   119.54K   329 downloads

That cabin nose looks much better. How are you transitioning the cabin side into that? Is it just a straight line across, which would present a squarish nose, or is there a radius to smooth out the transition?

What I was talking about earlier with the flare was this section:

 CA21_Bow_Section.JPG   13.93K   25 downloads

Looking at it more carefully, I realize it was a perception.

[SemiSalt]

I cleaned it up a bit
 CA_21C.pdf   119.54K   329 downloads

It's just a sketch, and I'm not the best at visualizing from a plan, but do I detect an overall deck/cockpit arrangement not too different from the C&C 25? The used a bunch of illusions to hide the height of the cabin top, and it looks pretty good.

Is that a bowsprit for the forward stay, or a prod for an assym?

Attached Files

•  cc25.jpg   133.27K   162 downloads

[Bob Perry]

Saiman:
That would explain that.
That is not flare. What you are seeing is "hollow" in the entry in plan view.
You can call anything anything you like I DGARA.
But in the world of yacht design, and I tell you this because I am certain you want to know, "Flare" refers to hollow in the sections, the body plan, the transverse cuts thru the hull. Flare is a concavity in the sectional shape. "Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape. I seldom use "flam" because 99% of the boats we look at today have either straight forwatd sections or flam to some degree. My little boat has flam and that is the opposite of flare.

SemI;
I don't know what the prod is for yet. I'm just sure I will need it before I am done.
Yes, C&C were masters at hiding cabin trunk height. I have been trying to copy their tricks for years.
My boat is 21.6' LOA so a 25'er is a much bigger boat.

Hey! Has anyone seen the new BLUE WATER SAILING yet?

[Soñadora]

I cleaned it up a bit

 CA_21C.pdf   119.54K   329 downloads

That cabin nose looks much better. How are you transitioning the cabin side into that? Is it just a straight line across, which would present a squarish nose, or is there a radius to smooth out the transition?

What I was talking about earlier with the flare was this section:

 CA21_Bow_Section.JPG   13.93K   25 downloads

Looking at it more carefully, I realize it was a perception.

Sailman, that is an optical illusion.

Bob

This hull is fantastic! She definitely has a very tough look to her. I'm pretty sure you're still scratching your head about that cabin top, so I'll hold my comments on that.

btw, sorry about the bad news. we're fortunate you have an outlet.

haven't seen BWS. Will need to get a copy over lunch today.

[Occams Razor]

Newbie question here.

What purpose the chines? They don't look dramatic enough to increase interior volume much, provide planing sections or allow flat panel construction.

[Slim]

"Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape.

So what is Flim then? Can't have Flam without Flim.

I like the prod - it will allow us to carry a larger rig. Plus the way it is drawn now it looks modern, but still elegant.

[Paul Romain Tober]

I genuinely like this design so far, Mr Perry. Nice and small and simple. Pretty much all you need for a coastal cruising couple. The only thing that interferes with my fantasy is that god-awful five-and-a-half-foot-long plank sticking out of the bottom of the boat - no gunk holing allowed and definitely more complications trailering and launching/retrieving. However,the boat will sail in accordance with my fantasy, make the cabin much nicer and the boat simpler. I just have to remind myself that I can't have everything.

romaine