918 replies to this topic

[Steam Flyer]

J-22? I think if you look at the interior that BP put in his design, you'll get the difference.

A race boat, even if not very serious, is going to have a big cockpit. Displacement and head room are going to the minimum acceptable, not the best for cruising.

Maybe. Depends on who you're racing. Boats designed for racing vary quite widely.

Are we looking for standing headroom? That's gonna be tough to get without making the boat funny-looking, and no matter how much it won't be enough for a large percentage. The Santana 23 has about 4'8" headroom under the cabin trunk and that's really more than I need (6' tall 50+ yo) to move around comfortably. Sitting headroom is about 4' but that's not enough to move around comfortably... gotta hunch down too much.

FB- Doug

[Bob Perry]

Steam:
I drew my little cruising boat specifically for me and my personal needs. I think I made that very clear when I first posted the drawings. I would not think of diluting the design by trying to make it a "one size fits all" boat.
When you start discussing headrom issues you are talking about an entirely different boat.

[familysailor]

Steam:
I drew my little cruising boat specifically for me and my personal needs. I think I made that very clear when I first posted the drawings. I would not think of diluting the design by trying to make it a "one size fits all" boat.
When you start discussing headroom issues you are talking about an entirely different boat.

Despite the fact that Bob grew it for himself, the boat as drawn is appealing to many.
Some might prefer variations in the running rigging or other easily modified details, but it's a great little Performance Pocket Cruiser.
Lets figure out how to get one or more built!

[Tom Ray]

Lets figure out how to get one or more built!

That's a problem easily solved by a pile of money. Unless you're still into the idea of a profit, in which case see my earlier comments on the reason the marine industry exists.

[Steam Flyer]

Steam:
I drew my little cruising boat specifically for me and my personal needs. I think I made that very clear when I first posted the drawings. I would not think of diluting the design by trying to make it a "one size fits all" boat.
When you start discussing headrom issues you are talking about an entirely different boat.

Oh, sorry
I thought we -were- talking about a different boat.

The CA21 is a great design for the proposed use. I like the idea of refusing to put a motor on it even though I believe that the potential market for a boat with no motor and a smack in the face for anyone who wants to put a motor on it may be about 4 people on this continent. But it's not the boat for me even without the motor-smacking; I need a couples weekender and we are dedicated to sailing into snuggish little coves & creeks with shallow water.


FB- Doug

{edit}
PS it is possible & relatively practical to get standing headroom in a boat of similar LOA, look at the Flicka.

[Bob Perry]

Steam:
Maybe it was me who lost track of the thread. No offense intended.

I would have an outboard because it can go glassy flat on Puget Sound (yesterday for instance) and leave you slatting around in a 3.5 knot tidal current. I hate outboards off the transom but it would really simplify things to get the engine out of the boat. I'd pay that aesthetic price.

[Steam Flyer]

Steam:
Maybe it was me who lost track of the thread. No offense intended.

I would have an outboard because it can go glassy flat on Puget Sound (yesterday for instance) and leave you slatting around in a 3.5 knot tidal current. I hate outboards off the transom but it would really simplify things to get the engine out of the boat. I'd pay that aesthetic price.

Shucks the outboard motors we have nowadays are awesome. I still hate them, of course... partly because being a cheapskate from a family of cheapskates I have only once had a newish reliable smooth-running one. And they are ugly.

My neighbor also has a problem sailing his boat, when the outboard motor is raised on it's bracket the mainsheet catches on it. This is partly a problem with the way the mainsheet is rigged and partly that there is no good place to put the outboard on a bracket. Plus it really really detracts fromthe look of the boat.

There are a number of Aussie boats that have the outboard on a bracket which tips up, then slides forward into a recessed locker in the cockpit floor. Gets the weight forward a bit, hides the ugliness, reduces tangles... it does take away some room and it adds complexity.

FB- Doug

[familysailor]

The Torqeedo has improved alot:
http://www.torqeedo.com/us/

If someone could combine a hydrogenerator like Bruce Schwab sells with an outboard function like torqueedo's and then put in a saildrive framework then the ugly outboard thing could be resolved.


http://www.bruceschw...ogenerators.htm
http://www.wattandsea.com/en

[slap]

Not my doing but this just happened. The 25.7 on the way to the USA rebranded the First 25S. Sail-away price I hear is US$80K

The First 210 also returns, renamed the First 20. No word on price. Both available n the spring.

At the Annapolis show, they had a First 20 - the price I was quoted was (I think) $40K+

[judyb]

How about a West Wight Potter?

I've been a Potter owner forever and I'm older than dirt. Other boats have come and gone in my life, but my Potter 19 has stood by me in hard times and good times. she's sailed the west coast from WA state to Mexico.

I know everybody thinks Potters are slow, but it's not true. With an asymm that I toss up in the air from the cockpit, and 8 kts of breeze she flys at 6.5 kts on a deep reach. Gotta love those flat panels and hard chines. She's faster than any boat on the water going on long trips to weather. She goes to weather at 65 mph behind my SUV.

The builder, International Marine, is coming out with two new versions for 2013. The reason: All the used Potters out in the market are killing sales of new boats. Over the past 40 years, they've built about 3,000 Potter 19's and 4,500 Potter 15's. They've got to come out with new models to stay profitable over the long haul.

(Full disclosure: I'm the sailmaker for the builder, so I have a dog in this race.)

1. The new Voyager is the same hard chine hull but extended to19.5' with 6.5 cockpit, shoal keel with 500 pounds of lead, with center board, and 30% more sail area. I sailed the prototype on SF Bay a month ago. Felt stiff as heck, did 5 kts boatspeed on a pont in 8 kts of breeze, and tacked through 93*. It tracked well, handled like it had a cutaway keel, no short tacking this baby. Nicely balanced helm. New interior has no keel trunk and no compression post.

2. Potter Sport: Local SF Bay NA Jim Antrim has drawn up a sport model. Selden is doing the engineering on the mast.

Here's the line drawing and stability curve..

Judy Blumhorst
Proud to be a trailer sailor
Can't afford a J70, so I'm gonna get me a P19 Sport!

[Cavelamb]

Judy, Judy, Judy....

I feel much the same way about my old Capri 18.
It may have been the smallest boat in the fleet, but it was more fun per pound than any of the rest.
There are times, more often of late, when I'd trade even to get back into one.

BTW, yours is the best first post I've seen here.
So I'll pass and let someone else make the official welcome...
(you gonna love it or hate it - no in betweens)

Richard

[judyb]

Thanks for the welcome, Richard, I've been a member, just lurking for years here. SA is where folks speak truth And BS. Some folks don't even know the difference between the two

[judyb]

I forgot to mention what I hear about sail away prices from the builder.

The Sport 19: The sail-away package, with galvanized trailer, outboard, and Hyde Sails (jib/main/asymm) will probably start at under $25k for the Sport. Including electrical system, compass, depth sounder, lights, opening ports, etc. Nothing fancy, but fairly well quiipped.

The Voyager 20: the sail-away package, with trailer, OB, sails, equipped as above, will probably start at under $28K.

Judy B

[Steam Flyer]

Thanks for the welcome, Richard, I've been a member, just lurking for years here. SA is where folks speak truth And BS. Some folks don't even know the difference between the two

Hi Judy, glad you decided to join in. This place is a bit more intense TSBB but more of the flavor from the "good ol' days" too. Do you still have the Force 5 ??

FB- Doug

[judyb]

Hey Doug! Fancy meeting you here. What are you sailing these days?

I sold all the Force 5's and windsurfers about 5 years ago, along with the trailer. Wish I had kept the trailer,though, because Dave and I adopted another kid who needed to learn to sail, so we had to buy a small fleet of Pico's so the family and the newest batch of neighborhood kids could learn to sail. The Pico's are easier on my knees and back than the F5's and bigger too. You can fit a kid or two on them with an adult. And, being made of Tupperware, they are almost indestructible. For a family with wild and crazy boys who could break anvils, the Picos are perfect. The Force Fives sailed better though.

Here's a pic from the old days when I ran the TSBB, and was still sailing the Force 5 and windsurfing days. Nowadays, I prefer boats that can pass the Advil test.
Last I heard this trailer was STILL taking young whippersnappers s to the Nationals.




Judy B

[Tom Ray]

Hey Judy, good to see you here. Did you make that tanbark sail for the Sun Cat Simple Song?

[TOTALXS]

I found this thread and Bob's CA 21 interesting, but as some have brought the subject up, how does anyone justify the expense of even a one off let alone a production version of a pocket cruiser today? In 1985 you could buy a SIrius 22 or a Seaward 22 for a 15,000.00 ballpark. If you compare median incomes (24K 1985, 50K 2011), that same boat would have to cost $ 32,000.00 today. Yet, even production boats of the same quality would be over 40K pretty easily. Even Bob might consider buying a seaward 22 for 6,000.00 ready to go if he wanted a pocket cruiser rather than spend an estimated 60,000.00 plus to have his 21' custom built. Other than sportboats, how many new boats are being built at all in this size range? It seems it would take what Joli said and mold in China, import parts and assemble here and then, could it be done for less than $ 35,000.00 ready to go?

[judyb]

Hey Judy, good to see you here. Did you make that tanbark sail for the Sun Cat Simple Song?

Hi Ray,

Nope, I didn't make that one.

BTW, do you have any pics of the sail I made for you? You never complained, so I guess you must like it...

[Tom Ray]

Hey Judy, good to see you here. Did you make that tanbark sail for the Sun Cat Simple Song?

Hi Ray,

Nope, I didn't make that one.

BTW, do you have any pics of the sail I made for you? You never complained, so I guess you must like it...

You have not made one for me yet, but you will. You made one for Dick Herman and the reef points were out of position so you made him another one. I talked my friend Joe into buying the one with the reef points in the wrong place, and he likes it very much. I want one more like the version on Simple Song above, but I think that top batten needs to be angled a bit and maybe longer and tapered. It's a high performance machine, you know.

Here's Joe:



And the only picture I have of the sail flying. Sorry 'bout the wrinkles, we were still adjusting.



Some of you are bound to wonder who would want a sail with the reef points wrong. Joe drops his boat into the water from its lift on nice days, sails across the wind until he runs out of harbor, then turns and comes back. He's got this retirement stuff down to an art.