918 replies to this topic

[Bob Perry]

Roms:
No, you can have everything.
You just can't have my deep keel, that's all.
We can play with a keel for you later.


Mitch:
There has ben so much written and posted on chines already on SA that I think with a little effort you can do some catch up reading and come to an understanding of how and why chines work. I really don't feel like explaining it again. It's not a simple subject. Look for the thread on the main forum too.

[sailman]

Saiman:
That would explain that.
That is not flare. What you are seeing is "hollow" in the entry in plan view.
You can call anything anything you like I DGARA.
But in the world of yacht design, and I tell you this because I am certain you want to know, "Flare" refers to hollow in the sections, the body plan, the transverse cuts thru the hull. Flare is a concavity in the sectional shape. "Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape. I seldom use "flam" because 99% of the boats we look at today have either straight forwatd sections or flam to some degree. My little boat has flam and that is the opposite of flare.

SemI;
I don't know what the prod is for yet. I'm just sure I will need it before I am done.
Yes, C&C were masters at hiding cabin trunk height. I have been trying to copy their tricks for years.
My boat is 21.6' LOA so a 25'er is a much bigger boat.

Hey! Has anyone seen the new BLUE WATER SAILING yet?

Bob,

Thanks for the lesson.

[chester]

That looks great bob! we can show the poptop along with accomodations plan

[Soñadora]

I like this particular debate about chines:

NProbs.

... we now return you to our regularly scheduled chining programming.

Chines rock!

Not anymore!

Yes they do!

No they don't!

Do so!

Na!

[Hike, Bitches!]

This hull design reminds me a little bit of the Beneteau 235..minus the chines.

I used to do a lot of sailing on one of those. I think we were just figuring out how to make it go, the owner was about to put some real sails on it. But then my buddy went and bought an Antrim 27 instead.

I also like the Coronado 25 from way back on the first page...That is what my family had in the 70's when I was a toddler...my parents put me and my sister into the v-berth and taped cardboard over the windows so we'd sleep in.

[Gatekeeper]

Here's what we don't want!! Tanzer 22.

Good sailing boat...butt ugly.

Attached Files

•  pictanzer22aa.jpg   11.64K   64 downloads

[Hike, Bitches!]

gatekeeper...ever see a Tanzer 30? You thought the 22 was ugly!

[Gatekeeper]

gatekeeper...ever see a Tanzer 30? You thought the 22 was ugly!

Never seen one (thankfully)...the 22 actually hurts my eyes!!

I crewed a Tanzer22 the first year I raced. No side decks, huge step up from the cockpit, lunatic skipper, no lifelines, not a good piece of gear on her, ENORMOUS (illegal) Genoa...and I was never allowed to cleat a line.

It's amazing I didn't give up racing after the first night.

[sailSAK]

Never seen one (thankfully)...the 22 actually hurts my eyes!!

For your viewing pleasure:


mmm, mmm good!

[Gatekeeper]

Uggg...my eyes!! My eyes!!

[Soñadora]

some things just can't be unseen.

I want the last 15 seconds of my life back

[Gatekeeper]

Sorry for the hi-jack...back to creating a pretty pocket cruiser.

[WHL]

.......snip...........
Never seen one (thankfully)...the 22 actually hurts my eyes!!

I crewed a Tanzer22 the first year I raced. No side decks, huge step up from the cockpit, lunatic skipper, no lifelines, not a good piece of gear on her, ENORMOUS (illegal) Genoa...and I was never allowed to cleat a line.

It's amazing I didn't give up racing after the first night.

actually Gatekeeper, those gennies upto 170% LP weren't illegal then. MORC for example, used to permit them in the early days before that measurment rule reduced an unpenalized LP to 155%. There's still nothing "illegal" about them; they're just impractical and fall into the "penalized" or punished category in handicap rules.

[tdwombat]

Saiman:
That would explain that.
That is not flare. What you are seeing is "hollow" in the entry in plan view.
You can call anything anything you like I DGARA.
But in the world of yacht design, and I tell you this because I am certain you want to know, "Flare" refers to hollow in the sections, the body plan, the transverse cuts thru the hull. Flare is a concavity in the sectional shape. "Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape. I seldom use "flam" because 99% of the boats we look at today have either straight forwatd sections or flam to some degree. My little boat has flam and that is the opposite of flare.

SemI;
I don't know what the prod is for yet. I'm just sure I will need it before I am done.
Yes, C&C were masters at hiding cabin trunk height. I have been trying to copy their tricks for years.
My boat is 21.6' LOA so a 25'er is a much bigger boat.

Hey! Has anyone seen the new BLUE WATER SAILING yet?

Nice article. I particularly like

"I have this fantasy of motoring down Puget Sound on a cold day in a steady drizzle, snug inside my motorsailer, preparing an elaborate meal within an arm’s reach of the wheel, dry as a bone, watching the world go by."

Sons, How does it feel ? Good on you. (Is this the first thing you've had published ?)

FOr thos of you who havn't seen it it's on line at

http://bwsailing.com...ry2009AOTM.html

BP - we don't get BWS down here, is the print version the same as the online ?

[Gatekeeper]

actually Gatekeeper, those gennies upto 170% LP weren't illegal then. MORC for example, used to permit them in the early days before that measurment rule reduced an unpenalized LP to 155%. There's still nothing "illegal" about them; they're just impractical and fall into the "penalized" or punished category in handicap rules.

WHL...So I've heard, but this was in the 153% (PHRF-LO) era. He managed to avoid being measured all season, and he was so cranky I don't think the RC cared to push the point.

It was easily a 170. It seemed to blanket a good portion of the cockpit.

[WHL]

Sounds like his certificate was "illegal" if he didn't declare it as opposed to the genny.

[Tyler Durden]

The boat I really see developing here is a modern San Juan 21 - which, coincidentally, was offered with a full width cabin house ending at the mast, and also as a full raised-deck model. The raised deck ones are not as pretty.

http://www.sj21fleet1.org/?The_Boats

[Paps]

nice article Bob n Rick, well done .

[Ishmael]

My Sharks had a standard 180, which was a little weird to sheet. I found a 110 gave me almost the same drive with way less messing about.

[WHL]

The boat I really see developing here is a modern San Juan 21 - which, coincidentally, was offered with a full width cabin house ending at the mast, and also as a full raised-deck model. The raised deck ones are not as pretty.
http://www.sj21fleet1.org/?The_Boats

Somehow I don't see Bob developing a "Modern" SJ21. The two are totally different in almost every way. The similarity might be that they are both under 22ft

[Paps]

Bob, I dont see the point in 4" side decks. If you cant stand on them, why bother? Wouldnt sitting headroom be a bit further inboard than that anyway.
Not that it matters as Im building the full deck version anyway.

[Soñadora]

Saiman:
That would explain that.
That is not flare. What you are seeing is "hollow" in the entry in plan view.
You can call anything anything you like I DGARA.
But in the world of yacht design, and I tell you this because I am certain you want to know, "Flare" refers to hollow in the sections, the body plan, the transverse cuts thru the hull. Flare is a concavity in the sectional shape. "Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape. I seldom use "flam" because 99% of the boats we look at today have either straight forwatd sections or flam to some degree. My little boat has flam and that is the opposite of flare.

SemI;
I don't know what the prod is for yet. I'm just sure I will need it before I am done.
Yes, C&C were masters at hiding cabin trunk height. I have been trying to copy their tricks for years.
My boat is 21.6' LOA so a 25'er is a much bigger boat.

Hey! Has anyone seen the new BLUE WATER SAILING yet?

Nice article. I particularly like

"I have this fantasy of motoring down Puget Sound on a cold day in a steady drizzle, snug inside my motorsailer, preparing an elaborate meal within an arm’s reach of the wheel, dry as a bone, watching the world go by."

Sons, How does it feel ? Good on you. (Is this the first thing you've had published ?)

FOr thos of you who havn't seen it it's on line at

http://bwsailing.com...ry2009AOTM.html

BP - we don't get BWS down here, is the print version the same as the online ?

HOLY CRAP! THAT'S FREAKIN' COOL!!!

wow...yeah, that's the first time I've ever been in a big rag like that. I can only say thanks to the WLYDO and especially to Bob for throwing down the gauntlet and challenging my skills.

wow. That's pretty cool man.

[Gatekeeper]

You earned the mention Sons...great job.

[ref]

The boat I really see developing here is a modern San Juan 21 - which, coincidentally, was offered with a full width cabin house ending at the mast, and also as a full raised-deck model. The raised deck ones are not as pretty.

http://www.sj21fleet1.org/?The_Boats

the raised-deck ones are not as pretty I do need a new keyboard now!

[tdwombat]

Saiman:
That would explain that.
That is not flare. What you are seeing is "hollow" in the entry in plan view.
You can call anything anything you like I DGARA.
But in the world of yacht design, and I tell you this because I am certain you want to know, "Flare" refers to hollow in the sections, the body plan, the transverse cuts thru the hull. Flare is a concavity in the sectional shape. "Flam" is a convexity in the sectional shape. I seldom use "flam" because 99% of the boats we look at today have either straight forwatd sections or flam to some degree. My little boat has flam and that is the opposite of flare.

SemI;
I don't know what the prod is for yet. I'm just sure I will need it before I am done.
Yes, C&C were masters at hiding cabin trunk height. I have been trying to copy their tricks for years.
My boat is 21.6' LOA so a 25'er is a much bigger boat.

Hey! Has anyone seen the new BLUE WATER SAILING yet?

Nice article. I particularly like

"I have this fantasy of motoring down Puget Sound on a cold day in a steady drizzle, snug inside my motorsailer, preparing an elaborate meal within an arm's reach of the wheel, dry as a bone, watching the world go by."

Sons, How does it feel ? Good on you. (Is this the first thing you've had published ?)

FOr thos of you who havn't seen it it's on line at

http://bwsailing.com...ry2009AOTM.html

BP - we don't get BWS down here, is the print version the same as the online ?

HOLY CRAP! THAT'S FREAKIN' COOL!!!

wow...yeah, that's the first time I've ever been in a big rag like that. I can only say thanks to the WLYDO and especially to Bob for throwing down the gauntlet and challenging my skills.

wow. That's pretty cool man.

I think we can all presume from that 'laconic' reply that Sons is relatively chirpy about the whole thing ? (and so he bloody well should be....)


Paps,

Given that we both love Rangers as much as we do I'm somewhat taken with your version. Needs refinement but I kind of like the flush deck thing. Won't come at the pop top though. Never was all that big on the Toyota Hi-Ace campervan look. I'd rather big hatch and boom tent. Maybe a small cuddy (is that the right word ?) would look the goods. Their is a non sailing Ranger on our moorings that has that look and I love it. How it works with headroom down below and boom height I am not sure.

[Paps]

Just for us Womby...

 CA_21_paps_coloured.jpg   129.08K   55 downloads


Pop tops are OK, if the weathers crap just close it. Nice to have standing head room while cooking.

[Ishmael]

Just for us Womby...

 CA_21_paps_coloured.jpg   129.08K   55 downloads


Pop tops are OK, if the weathers crap just close it. Nice to have standing head room while cooking.

Dovekie


Not saying your boat would be quite as ... uh... idiosyncratic as Bolger's but the look is similar. Dovekie has phenomenal inside room.

This is also one way of getting a Greever beachable keel thingy.

Anyone ever sail a Dovekie?

[hijack on]
I built one of Bolger's Elegant Punts and it was remarkably zippy under sail. Tacking was a huge pain in the ass. Having two leeboards would have helped a lot.

 punt.jpg   180.96K   8 downloads

[/hijack off]

[WHL]

Just for us Womby...
 CA_21_paps_coloured.jpg   129.08K   55 downloads
Pop tops are OK, if the weathers crap just close it. Nice to have standing head room while cooking.

Sweet. Classical but with some 'tude

[Nomenclature]

Just for us Womby...

 CA_21_paps_coloured.jpg   129.08K   55 downloads


Pop tops are OK, if the weathers crap just close it. Nice to have standing head room while cooking.

Not saying your boat would be quite as ... uh... idiosyncratic as Bolger's but the look is similar. Dovekie has phenomenal inside room.

I was just thinking that this was starting to look Bolgeresque.

[Kent H]

I was thinking this is how Ted Hood should have drawn the AMF 2100. The only thing that I see on his boat that I liked was the lift keel for trailering or keeping the boat in a lift on non tidal areas. His 2100 also stored in a garage as long as the length of the garage was ok.

I really like that design that has the fixed sprit and gaff rig. Of all the older designs shown that is the only one that really caught my eye.

Also the boat is starting to look a little too fast for the target market. Lets slow it down there Mr. Sport boat!

[Soñadora]

ok.

I'm going to model this up. I think you all will be surprised.

IMNSHO, this boat is EXACTLY what the sailing world needs. I am deadIveBeenDerinkingCaptMorgan serious.

This little boat makes me think of what the PS Flicka should have been. It also makes me think of Bob's characit...chracit....freakin' cartoony drawings.

This is gonna be good...

[WHL]

Just spoke to Bob a few moments ago.... he's frickin mad about all this dickerin with HIS 21ft dream. I will edit out the bad bits and say " tell those mo' to f'n get #$%^@ on with the &^%$%# and leave that #$%^ decision to ME !!



Just kidding. he's " %$#*in " mad about getting up at 0200 and may leave his VOR boat to its fate until 0500.

Edit: Sons: that would be great if you did that (with a modern gaff like one of the Rangers in Sydney that Paps posted).

[Ishmael]

Just spoke to Bob a few moments ago.... he's frickin mad about all this dickerin with HIS 21ft dream. I will edit out the bad bits and say " tell those mo' to f'n get #$%^@ on with the &^%$%# and leave that #$%^ decision to ME !!



Just kidding. he's " %$#*in " mad about getting up at 0200 and may leave his VOR boat to its fate until 0500.

Edit: Sons: that would be great if you did that (with a modern gaff like one of the Rangers in Sydney that Paps posted).

Tell him to HTFU.

[tdwombat]

Just spoke to Bob a few moments ago.... he's frickin mad about all this dickerin with HIS 21ft dream. I will edit out the bad bits and say " tell those mo' to f'n get #$%^@ on with the &^%$%# and leave that #$%^ decision to ME !!



Just kidding. he's " %$#*in " mad about getting up at 0200 and may leave his VOR boat to its fate until 0500.

Edit: Sons: that would be great if you did that (with a modern gaff like one of the Rangers in Sydney that Paps posted).

Modern gaff rig ? Ooohhh aye , oi do lark the sond of thart. Go quart narcely wif that floosh deck.....

So the Maestro is going to leave his boat to it's fate yet again ?

Willie Nelson's new big hit.......on the rocks again......

(sorry BP.....long lunch.....somewhat liquid....some people have absolutely no respect.....fuck up a blokes 21' wet dream and then pile insult on injury........I'm off for a nap....)

[Soñadora]

Just spoke to Bob a few moments ago.... he's frickin mad about all this dickerin with HIS 21ft dream. I will edit out the bad bits and say " tell those mo' to f'n get #$%^@ on with the &^%$%# and leave that #$%^ decision to ME !!



Just kidding. he's " %$#*in " mad about getting up at 0200 and may leave his VOR boat to its fate until 0500.

Edit: Sons: that would be great if you did that (with a modern gaff like one of the Rangers in Sydney that Paps posted).

Modern gaff rig ? Ooohhh aye , oi do lark the sond of thart. Go quart narcely wif that floosh deck.....

So the Maestro is going to leave his boat to it's fate yet again ?

Willie Nelson's new big hit.......on the rocks again......

(sorry BP.....long lunch.....somewhat liquid....some people have absolutely no respect.....fuck up a blokes 21' wet dream and then pile insult on injury........I'm off for a nap....)

Looking at the winds, he might do better than the rest of us if he just floats around.

[WHL]

So who's going to reveal their daring strategy?
While you think about that, I'll just get stuck into some of this.

 Rum_Ready.jpg   424.94K   8 downloads

[Paps]

Now is not the time to get pissed Womby!!

[Elegua]

Is it possible to make it a little bigger? I've always wanted something that was small, but I could do some serious cruising in - something like a modern equivalent of a Contessa 26, but that would sail fast enough so that one wouldn't risk starvation with each passage.

[WHL]

We have a bevvy of beauties for you, the CA46, the CA36, the CA32 (in the works) and Bob's personal project, the CA21 and change. If you take a look back, you'll note that this is the boat he wants to draw. I like the thought of something around 27ft too. Perhaps after this?

[Soñadora]

A 27'er with the same hull shape as his pocket cruiser.

I'm thinking Vancouver 27, actually. A tough little cruiser.

[tdwombat]

Now is not the time to get pissed Womby!!

Now you tell me......

[tdwombat]

So who's going to reveal their daring strategy?
While you think about that, I'll just get stuck into some of this.

 Rum_Ready.jpg   424.94K   8 downloads

When in danger or in doubt , run in circles scream and shout.

[tdwombat]

Hey,,,aren't we in the wrong thread ?????

[WHL]

Hey,,,aren't we in the wrong thread ?????

You're right...I should take my dwink around the corner

[Elegua]

We have a bevvy of beauties for you, the CA46, the CA36, the CA32 (in the works) and Bob's personal project, the CA21 and change. If you take a look back, you'll note that this is the boat he wants to draw. I like the thought of something around 27ft too. Perhaps after this?

Hmmm...
C46 - Way too big. The hassle...
C36 - Still too big. Big enough to have to be treated like a big boat but none of the amenities.
C32 - Just right? Maybe the upper limit
C27 - Sounds just right.
C21 - That's camping, not cruising.

Opinions only. But I really looking for the right craft to f-off on that won't be a huge headache.

[chester]

The boat I really see developing here is a modern San Juan 21 - which, coincidentally, was offered with a full width cabin house ending at the mast, and also as a full raised-deck model. The raised deck ones are not as pretty.

http://www.sj21fleet1.org/?The_Boats

I had a SJ21 MKI for years. it was the funnest boat in big (for me) wind and waves: drive it on a close reach over the waves until you got a gust and then steer off and ease the main and carve a bit of a surf. unfortunately that boat was only rigged and only had a jib so it didn't go in light air like it should have but it was fun to sail.

[chester]

gatekeeper...ever see a Tanzer 30? You thought the 22 was ugly!

Never seen one (thankfully)...the 22 actually hurts my eyes!!

I crewed a Tanzer22 the first year I raced. No side decks, huge step up from the cockpit, lunatic skipper, no lifelines, not a good piece of gear on her, ENORMOUS (illegal) Genoa...and I was never allowed to cleat a line.

It's amazing I didn't give up racing after the first night.

tanzer also made a 28 that didn't use the raised deck but was still ugly. They also made a 29-30 designed by cuthbertson (there is one at my marina) that was a good looking boat and the had just introduced a 25 and 27 by a french designer that were decent looking and modern...before a bank walked in and called their credit.

[chester]

Just for us Womby...

 CA_21_paps_coloured.jpg   129.08K   55 downloads


Pop tops are OK, if the weathers crap just close it. Nice to have standing head room while cooking.

why thank you paps...as i was saying...

[chester]

A 27'er with the same hull shape as his pocket cruiser.

I'm thinking Vancouver 27, actually. A tough little cruiser.

i'm guessing that a 27 built along the lines of the CA21 will have very little in common with the Vancouver 27.

[SemiSalt]

I built one of Bolger's Elegant Punts and it was remarkably zippy under sail. Tacking was a huge pain in the ass. Having two leeboards would have helped a lot.

It's not supposed that you move the leeboard in tacking on of PCB's instant boats.

[Ishmael]

I built one of Bolger's Elegant Punts and it was remarkably zippy under sail. Tacking was a huge pain in the ass. Having two leeboards would have helped a lot.

It's not supposed that you move the leeboard in tacking on of PCB's instant boats.

Yes, but it went better with the leeboard on the lee side, and I didn't worry so much about it falling apart.

[Joli]

Looking forward to Son's renderings. Could be a fun little boat for sure.

Cheers all.

[haz]

Dovekie


Not saying your boat would be quite as ... uh... idiosyncratic as Bolger's but the look is similar. Dovekie has phenomenal inside room.

This is also one way of getting a Greever beachable keel thingy.

Anyone ever sail a Dovekie?

I bought a Dovekie brand new from Edey & Duff and used it for three years. A very unique experience! I never bothered with an outboard, and the beam on that little sucker is about 21 feet with the oars hangin' out the ports.

It actually sailed well. Woke up on a Lake Michigan beach at 2am one time (last to leave the party). Dovekie was anchored about 50 feet off the beach in three feet of water. Wind had picked up to about 20 knots and it was a six mile beat back to the harbor where the trailer was. Waves were, maybe, 2-3 feet and short.

Pulled the snotter bone tight ... sail's as flat as a board ... and wound up having a fun sail back.

My Express 27 sails a LOT better, but you'd be shocked at what you can do with that little, unballasted Bolger design.

Haz

[Bob Perry]

Here is my interior layout for the 21.5'er.

The more I got into this design the more I started thinking of it as my boat.
My current boat is 26' LOA so I know small boats.
I cruise by myself 95% of the time so privacy is not an issue.
I have found that cruising in the wet PNW the primary concern is a place to hang wet gear where it can breath and dry.
I also need a place for my guitar in a bulky, hard shell case.
I need a long berth.
I need adequate space for meal preparation. I place for the pot, a place for the can, a place for the can opener.
I am thinking no engine at all for now, not even an outboard. I'd at least like to try it that way for a week or two.
An Igloo cooler would be in of the cockpit lockers.

It's a simple layout for a man with simple needs.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   151.84K   358 downloads

[oregonarchist]

Sweet, Maestro!

[WHL]

That's a neat idea for the table. Would it be more useful (e.g. charts or a laptop) if it was rectangular with a something like a 6" radius on the corners?
I hope that's not that tasty Guild acoustic in the bilge is it?
On the starboard side, I see the hanging locker; is that a sink with foot pumps? What else have you drawn there?

Overall, I can see that being a fun boat.

[Bob Perry]

Hung:
Yes, that is my Guild in the bilge. But consider, deck stepped mast, no engine, Igloo cooler, the bilge will be bone dry like it is on my current boat. I have to vacuum it to get the grunge out. And most of that is carpet/fuzz grunge.

Foot pumps, one scotch, one Tequila at the sink. Big hanging locker outboard. Lots of shelf space outboard of the settee/berths. Lots of food space.

Can you help me with the rig please. I'd like a nice big fathead main. I'm thinking a Sa/D of around 22 would be good. I think I will go with runners and only slightly swept spreaders. I can deal with runners. Mainsheet to the transom someway so I can eliminate a backstay. Gross trim/fine trim on main. Masthead screacher, 110% jib, 85% heavy air jib. I hope I can go without a "bobstay". If that prod was carbon and tied into the stem well I think I could do it. Maybe I'll have to go I-14 style or Aussie skiff style. OooH, that might be cool.

I need the team to chime in now with ideas.

[WHL]

Hung:
Yes, that is my Guild in the bilge. But consider, deck stepped mast, no engine, Igloo cooler, the bilge will be bone dry like it is on my current boat. I have to vacuum it to get the grunge out. And most of that is carpet/fuzz grunge.

Foot pumps, one scotch, one Tequila at the sink. Big hanging locker outboard. Lots of shelf space outboard of the settee/berths. Lots of food space.

Can you help me with the rig please. I'd like a nice big fathead main. I'm thinking a Sa/D of around 22 would be good. I think I will go with runners and only slightly swept spreaders. I can deal with runners. Mainsheet to the transom someway so I can eliminate a backstay. Gross trim/fine trim on main. Masthead screacher, 110% jib, 85% heavy air jib. I hope I can go without a "bobstay". If that prod was carbon and tied into the stem well I think I could do it. Maybe I'll have to go I-14 style or Aussie skiff style. OooH, that might be cool.

I need the team to chime in now with ideas.

Yes to the rig ideas and I think your idea about supporting the sprit is a solid one i.e. the I14 or skiff type.
I'll fiddle around with the rig dimensions.
How about 25 degree sweep approx in the spreaders to give you the 110% overlap without the having to hollow the jib leech or interfere with shrouds?

[Bob Perry]

Hung:
25 degrees is a LOT of sweep.
I was hoping to go less than 20 degrees.
Remember, I will have runners. I like runners. I like lines to pull. I like control over the rig. I am not afraid.
Already drawn in the skiff prod support and it looks hot.The sad thing is that it begs the question "why not just add some bow overhang to get the extra J?"

In a petulent voice "But I don't want bow overhang."

[Paul Romain Tober]

Here is my interior layout for the 21.5'er.

The more I got into this design the more I started thinking of it as my boat.
My current boat is 26' LOA so I know small boats.
I cruise by myself 95% of the time so privacy is not an issue.
I have found that cruising in the wet PNW the primary concern is a place to hang wet gear where it can breath and dry.
I also need a place for my guitar in a bulky, hard shell case.
I need a long berth.
I need adequate space for meal preparation. I place for the pot, a place for the can, a place for the can opener.
I am thinking no engine at all for now, not even an outboard. I'd at least like to try it that way for a week or two.
An Igloo cooler would be in of the cockpit lockers.

It's a simple layout for a man with simple needs.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   151.84K   358 downloads

Very nice, Maestro. That little round cafe table could use some fine tuning - maybe rectangular as mentioned earlier? It would also be nice to have that forward hatch big enough so that one could do foredeck stuff without clambering over the cabin roof.

How soon will the hull kit be available?

romaine

[tdwombat]

Hung:
Yes, that is my Guild in the bilge. But consider, deck stepped mast, no engine, Igloo cooler, the bilge will be bone dry like it is on my current boat. I have to vacuum it to get the grunge out. And most of that is carpet/fuzz grunge.

Foot pumps, one scotch, one Tequila at the sink. Big hanging locker outboard. Lots of shelf space outboard of the settee/berths. Lots of food space.

Can you help me with the rig please. I'd like a nice big fathead main. I'm thinking a Sa/D of around 22 would be good. I think I will go with runners and only slightly swept spreaders. I can deal with runners. Mainsheet to the transom someway so I can eliminate a backstay. Gross trim/fine trim on main. Masthead screacher, 110% jib, 85% heavy air jib. I hope I can go without a "bobstay". If that prod was carbon and tied into the stem well I think I could do it. Maybe I'll have to go I-14 style or Aussie skiff style. OooH, that might be cool.

I need the team to chime in now with ideas.

Interior is sweet as. Love it. Comfortable for two without trying to over do it as per that Freedom thing which was, shall we say, just a touch cramped ? I love the fact that you have a comfortable feet up settee to read on, realistic space to eat (although obviously most eating will be upstairs except in inclement weather) and while with two there will be a bit of tootsie tangling the v-berth is not bad.

Wun...round table positives probably outweigh the negatives. Really , chart work is not going to be a big thing with this baby unless I decide to use mine for a single handed pub crawl round Oz......even then I'll be port hopping.....chart will end up in the cockpit......

Ref the rig......I guess a boat as small as this can afford the runners but I really do not like the things. I guess you only need to ease off the lee runner when running or broad reaching so maybe not such a big deal. I'm a simple kind of guy so simplicity always appeals.

I love the smiley face on the bow...soooooooooooooo cute. (yes I know it was probably not intentional but mine is going to have that big smile painted on her bow. This is one happy boat.)

edit.....agree with Romaine re the f'ward hatch size...as big as possible.....I still think the space saving the round table gives makes it a goer....

[WHL]

Hung:
25 degrees is a LOT of sweep.
I was hoping to go less than 20 degrees.
Remember, I will have runners. I like runners. I like lines to pull. I like control over the rig. I am not afraid.
Already drawn in the skiff prod support and it looks hot.The sad thing is that it begs the question "why not just add some bow overhang to get the extra J?"

In a petulent voice "But I don't want bow overhang."

OK. let me draw the sheeting angles and 110% overlap and takealook (Takealook - a little Inuit village waaay up north, or was that Tookalook? Was it close to Qwitchabichin? I can't remember)
Re: the sprit, convince your self that it's to reduce weight in the ends

[Bob Perry]

Roms & Wombs:

That forward hatch is a ventilation hatch.
I must have air moving over my face in order to sleep.
I would like it as big as possible.
Listen:
I'm sitting there. Sailing along. What else do I have to do with my time :
Put the guitar down.
Put the beer down.
Take up on the runner.
This is not compelx nor physically demanding.

If I can't do that then I'd best limit myself to a golf cart.
I am going to do this until I get really old.
I have made that promise with myself.

Hung:
I am persona non grata at Quitchabitchin.

[sailman]

Hung:
Yes, that is my Guild in the bilge. But consider, deck stepped mast, no engine, Igloo cooler, the bilge will be bone dry like it is on my current boat. I have to vacuum it to get the grunge out. And most of that is carpet/fuzz grunge.

Foot pumps, one scotch, one Tequila at the sink. Big hanging locker outboard. Lots of shelf space outboard of the settee/berths. Lots of food space.

Can you help me with the rig please. I'd like a nice big fathead main. I'm thinking a Sa/D of around 22 would be good. I think I will go with runners and only slightly swept spreaders. I can deal with runners. Mainsheet to the transom someway so I can eliminate a backstay. Gross trim/fine trim on main. Masthead screacher, 110% jib, 85% heavy air jib. I hope I can go without a "bobstay". If that prod was carbon and tied into the stem well I think I could do it. Maybe I'll have to go I-14 style or Aussie skiff style. OooH, that might be cool.

I need the team to chime in now with ideas.

Bob,

Very nice job working the interior space. The table, the garbage, head all nice innovations. As for the rig I think a reverse angle boom like a mini would make managing the main easier. For the prod you could always go with a deck mounted retractable. For a backstay you could go with something similar to the Rocket 22, a prod off the stern to support the backstay. Allows you to have a boom that runs the transom with roach.

Will Museler

[Bob Perry]

Will:
that is an interesting idea but I think my outboard, transom hung rudder might play havoc with that backstay prod.
Still, it's an original idea and I will have to think on it.
Thanks.

[PHM]

I look around our harbour and see boats from a forgotten era...Siren 17, CS 22, Sirius 21, Matilda 20...and the BIG boats that made all the commotion when the arrived in the 80's, the Tanzer 26 and the VERY luxurious CS27

In today's market place our 33 is almost a pocket cruiser!!

So true....during the '60s we cruised our family 24' Columbia challenger all over SoCal, Santa Cruz Is., Anacapa Is., Catalina etc for weeks at a time (with an RDF, an old rusting alcohol stove that worked every once in awhile and a $10 hibachi (remember those things?) that we took into the beach each night to cook dinner; no sink, no water tank, no standing headroom even for the kids, etc etc....). When boats like the Ericson 27 hit the scene in the early '70s we thought they looked like the height of luxury and sleek and fast to boot. Serious jonesing took hold and all of a sudden our little 24' wasn't good enough anymore.

I'm with you guys--I like the idea of going back to small fun to sail boats.

Bob, I like the new product line, the Pocket 21 (aka cruising aussie skiff), a 27 for family weekends (make it "skiffy" too--give the kids some excitement, I say) and the love shack 32 from the other thread. Just need an inexpensive builder....

[Greever]

Veeger:
Thanks very much.
what you see there is about 2 hours of work. A friend had some bad news today and I was working with a lot of pent up energy/anger/rage whatever. I was using this project to vent. Of course I have been thinking about this boat for the last three years and at one time I did do some drawings. But I lost them.

I think a number of rigs can work on this boat. For now, seeing this is a project aimed at me, I
l draw the rig I like, a simple stayed sloop rig. Maybe I'll work on a rig for you next. Cat yawl? Why would you want a "cat yawl"?
That poor little mizzen will suffocate. .

Since Greever hasn't chimed in, can we have a Pilot House version with a tug boat whistle?


ducking.....

Hell, give me time. I just found this thread!

[PHM]

Hung:
Yes, that is my Guild in the bilge. But consider, deck stepped mast, no engine, Igloo cooler, the bilge will be bone dry like it is on my current boat. I have to vacuum it to get the grunge out. And most of that is carpet/fuzz grunge.

Foot pumps, one scotch, one Tequila at the sink. Big hanging locker outboard. Lots of shelf space outboard of the settee/berths. Lots of food space.

Can you help me with the rig please. I'd like a nice big fathead main. I'm thinking a Sa/D of around 22 would be good. I think I will go with runners and only slightly swept spreaders. I can deal with runners. Mainsheet to the transom someway so I can eliminate a backstay. Gross trim/fine trim on main. Masthead screacher, 110% jib, 85% heavy air jib. I hope I can go without a "bobstay". If that prod was carbon and tied into the stem well I think I could do it. Maybe I'll have to go I-14 style or Aussie skiff style. OooH, that might be cool.

I need the team to chime in now with ideas.

Sounds a bit like an Open 6.5 mini transat rig (but less SA/D). Maybe take some ideas from the Open 6.5s and combine them with the hull/interior you want. How about an articulating deck mounted prod?

[tdwombat]

Roms & Wombs:
If I can't do that then I'd best limit myself to a golf cart.
I am going to do this until I get really old.
I have made that promise with myself.

BP,
OK so runners it is.

HEy BP, for the cruise round Scotland.....we gonna take a brace of these or the Motor Sailor ?????

[Veeger]

quote name='Bob Perry' post='2035352' date='Dec 11 2008, 08:20 PM']Veeger:
Thanks very much.
what you see there is about 2 hours of work. A friend had some bad news today and I was working with a lot of pent up energy/anger/rage whatever. I was using this project to vent. Of course I have been thinking about this boat for the last three years and at one time I did do some drawings. But I lost them.

I think a number of rigs can work on this boat. For now, seeing this is a project aimed at me, I
l draw the rig I like, a simple stayed sloop rig. Maybe I'll work on a rig for you next. Cat yawl? Why would you want a "cat yawl"?
That poor little mizzen will suffocate. .[/quote]


I lost this thread for a bit, I've been over in Indya sailing something else...

Why a cat yawl?

(I always liked Bolger's rigs?)

Seriously, I am A) lazy (no spins, etc) and so DONE with sailing deep downwind where I can't ease the main right on out. (see A)

Free standing rig on my next boat. Cross my heart. (kinda precludes decent headsails too, donit?)

No mast or stripper pole in my bunk, thank you. (I said 'no poles', not nothing, ah, stripped....)

Might even be room for a small pram on deck too. (Oh, didn't I mention that MY version will have to be a bit longer?)

I grew up in/on small boats. Albacore, Oday DS, old wooden Rocket by A. R. True, Herreshoff America catboat. Always dreamed I had the same thing but just a bit longer, slightly more stretched out, fine bow and mebbe an overhanging counter (mebbe). The problem with boat builders, BUYERS etc is that once they get to 27', they think they have a 'big' boat and want 'big boat features' (headroom, inboards, enclosed heads, all kine dat stuff). But Nooo, not moi. I want a big (long) SMALL boat.

Bob, your little 21 here has a great layout. I just want 3 feet added on each end for mine. Oh and the cat yawl. Of course the mizzen doesn't DO anything, but, sheesh, it sure makes the boat stand out from the crowd! (that first profile sure was purdy)

[sam_crocker]

I like the table too. It's the perfect size and shape to serve family style Chinese dinners for one or two

I think Bob's been thinking about this one for a while. I can't wait to see the double ender version.

Attached Files

•  ca21__flushdeck.jpg   43.03K   32 downloads
•  ca21_a.jpg   39.28K   30 downloads
•  ca21_gaff.jpg   45.03K   29 downloads

[jimbojones]

Here's what we don't want!! Tanzer 22.

Good sailing boat...butt ugly.

tanzers are function over form. they sail very well for their vintage( I routinely out sailed many larger and "faster boats" , have big cockpits which make them fun ( i hate boats that are all cabin no cockpit they are for loners), and are reasonably comfortable down below. Not to mention very seaworthy. but a t22 is actually closer to a 23 footer, i can't imagine having use able space with a boat 2 feet shorter i'd call the t22 about the smallest i would want to cruise on in any shape or form. But ugly as they are i loved mine which was a 1971, cheap to own and cheap to maintain.

small boats are great! this is fun, hooray for Bob.

ps, the 170 genoa is what the boat carries from class rules as a #1 and yes they are still raced as a OD.

[sailman]

Bob,
I checked at the Rocket site for a pic and they are not set up like that, so now I am trying to remember where I saw that set up. It was essencially an a-frame staddling the rudder on hinges ( I guess so that in port you could just pick it up). I will try and track down that pic.

Will Museler

[Bob Perry]

Here is a revision with a few added tweaks.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   150.58K   241 downloads

[Veeger]

Here is a revision with a few added tweaks.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   150.58K   241 downloads

(tentatively puts his hand up)

Am I seeing this right? It looks like a nice large hanging locker on the stbd side aft. How high is that hanger rod? To go all the way aft, as shown, looks like it wouldn't be high enough to hang a jacket???

[Bob Perry]

Veegs:
If you assume that the rod is below the cockpit seat height ( and when I lay the cockpit out it may actually be able to be higher than that) then we get 30" + for "hanging height". But coats can drape along the side of the hull as they do on my current boat. It's not ideal but it is a 21.6" boat. I figure I have twice the hanging space on this design as I have on my own. boat. I have a quarter berth on the starboard side and that truncates the hanging locker space. I'd love to have that quarter berth but I'm not willing to sacrifice the counter and hanging locker spaces.

[Gatekeeper]

Can we consider these...

- a dedicated fuel tank locker (like a propane locker) for our outboard,

- some type user friendly lifting device for the outboard, track system with a tackle??

- small single tank propane locker, if we are plumbing the boat for cooking gas

Just my 5 cents.

[SemiSalt]

This interior certainly does support this proposition you advanced in your book: you like big galleys. I just hope the burgers don't reach the point of perfection just as the running backs need tending.

My comments:

1) Like others, I don't like the circular table. It seems like you are giving away a lot of table area that could be had for very little trouble.
2) You might consider sculpting some berth space into a really comfortable chair, a la the Stone Horse Sumptuous Seat.
3) I see no objection to shortening the cabin, i.e. moving the sloping forehatch back some. You don't have a need for headroom there.
4) I love the solid bobstay. Now that looks like a modern idea.
5) Where are you going to keep your duffle? Can you avoid the small boat syndrome of having all the gear on the bunks during the day, and all the gear on the cabin sole at night?

I think you are working a pretty novel line of thinking here. I can think of small boats that are lighter, and some that are heavier, but few if any in this range. It does not remind me anything other boat. Production builders do not build boats for two, generally speaking.

[Joli]

I like it. Could be a very fun boat.

[sailSAK]

I keep finding myself thinking "wow that looks roomy."
And then I remember, all the little boats I have looked at, and where I am probably drawing my conclusions, were when I was about 12-14. I bet they seemed bigger then

Just like when I get into a minivan and think "wow, these were a lot bigger when I was a kid."

[Bob Perry]

Semi:
I appreciate your comments except the one about the round tabe. I DGARA what shape table you like, at this stage it is a very minor detail. Here I have changed it just for you.

I do not plan on even an outboard at this point so I don't need a way to get it on and off the boat and I sure don't need a gasoline lkr. But, that said they both could be designed into another version of the boat.

No, I want that sloped trunk to go forward so it's easy for me to make up the bed at night.
My berth just extends aft to be the seat/chair and I want to keep it all level so I get the feeling of a very long berth.
Duffle will be shoved all the way forward during the day and slid aft on the settee at night. That's how I do it now. Works for me and I have no bags on the cabin sole.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   151.85K   113 downloads

[Gatekeeper]

Bob...no outboard?? Inboard diesel?? Sorry, I may have missed this earlier...I've been busy with the VOR

My friend's Crabber 22 has a beatiful little Yanmar 2 cylinder installation. When combined with a removable cockpit sole (12 large cs bolts & gasketed) the access to the driveline is good.

I'll keep watching.

[slap]

Bob...no outboard?? Inboard diesel?? Sorry, I may have missed this earlier...I've been busy with the VOR

My friend's Crabber 22 has a beatiful little Yanmar 2 cylinder installation. When combined with a removable cockpit sole (12 large cs bolts & gasketed) the access to the driveline is good.

I'll keep watching.

Bob isn't going to have any engine at all. See that thing in his plans that look like a guitar case - that's his paddle that he's going to use instead.

[familysailor]

Bob----
Great looking boat. I lived on a Santana 22 for a year or so in my youth-- long, long ago. This looks much more comfortable.

Stowing the table was a pain on the Santana 22, and I like you solution. Could it be mounted on a sleeve around the mast compression post? This might allow spinning 360 degrees and allow the table height to be adjusted as well. I can't tell from the drawings but it might be possible to slide the table all the way up the post and snug it against the cabin overhead while underway.

A basic block setup at the post to raise and lower the table along with holes in the post and a fast pin to set the height......

$ .02........

FS

[Bob Perry]

Gate:
I absolutely love my little single cylinder Volvo diesel on my boat. It has never let me down.

But I am dreaming here.
I am dreaming of a time where I could take weeks and just sail up the Sound and down the Sound with no one checking in on me and no schedule.
I figure a little boat like this I can dock under sail, hell I do it with my current boat. I mostly do it to impress the power boaters. I am one smug SOB.
It would be a piece of cake to anchor it anywhere. I'd have a 25 lb. Danforth, something big and reliable. I'd put chocks on the foredeck for it. I'd have 20' of 3/8" chain and 150' of nylon. For once in my life I'd like no engine. Like the old guys.

One of my totally favorite cruises was aboard a 38'er I designed. Just the owner and me. His son, a high school friend of mine, had just died. He called and asked if I wanted to go cruising with him. My wife said it was probably a good idea. His engine was on the fritz, Pathfinder POS. We cruised the San Juans without an engine for a week. When you have no engine your entire world changes. It becomes about sailing.

Ghosting along at dinner time, with no options, your dinner becomes important and you have nothing but time to enjoy it.

Slap:
Yep, that's my guitar case. You have to have something to do while you sit out there waitiing for the breeze. I can work on the guitar solo from TEQUILA SUNRISE.

Family:
It's hard to explain but the table top comes off and fits flush up agsinst the bulkhead by drilling a hole in the bulkhead to accept the pipe stub base of the table.
This is a detail I got years ago when cruising a Haida 26, a wonderful boat.


The dog's having a nightmare.
The cat brought a mouse into the house.
OK, I let the cat into the house with a mouse in it's mouth.
The mouse and the cat are now in the house.
It sure looked dead to me.

[Hike, Bitches!]

Nice...it was just playing dead so the cat would stop crushing it in its mouth.

[Gatekeeper]

For once in my life I'd like no engine. Like the old guys.

Our harbor master would freak ... and I can say without any hesitation, I am NOT that good a sailor.

[puddin]

Maybe take some ideas from the Open 6.5s and combine them with the hull/interior you want. How about an articulating deck mounted prod?

Yes!!!

Maybe oarlocks?

[Paul Romain Tober]

For once in my life I'd like no engine. Like the old guys.

Our harbor master would freak ... and I can say without any hesitation, I am NOT that good a sailor.

This is how you become "that good a sailor". Nothing quite like necessity to steepen the learning curve. Keep in mind that this is a relatively light 21 foot boat - even if you screw up you can't do too much damage.

I like the no-engine aspect. It enforces true cruising - no carved-in-stone itinerary and you only generally go in the direction and on the route you might have thought you would go. I would have a big-ass sweep that I could stow - maybe two-piece - so I could move that last hundred yards or quarter mile at the end of the day.

Someone suggested an unstayed mast and I would like to second that idea. Maybe even an unstayed cat rig. Can't get much simpler than that.

romaine

[Gatekeeper]

This is how you become "that good a sailor". Nothing quite like necessity to steepen the learning curve. Keep in mind that this is a relatively light 21 foot boat - even if you screw up you can't do too much damage.

romaine

No argument...but I came to sailing late (45 years old), and to a 27' keelboat, so I didn't get to learn on smaller boats like many of you did.

The thought of bringing our 33 into our slip, in our tight little harbor (againest club rules) is a bit daunting.

I admire the guys that have the skill, but if I said I'm one of them, I'd be lying.

(But just ask me how good I am, under power, coming in??)

[jimbojones]

i know this is putting the cart before the hose but what is a reasonable cost for a boat of roughly this design brief? the santana 20 can be had new for peanuts, under 20 grand last i heard, would this be an under 20 grand boat as well?
just asking out of curiosity i am not in the market for this boat although i love the idea

[Soñadora]

here's Bob's hull in 3D

I called it 'jawnhenry' just because. I already have a file named 'hull'.

http://sail2live.com.../jawnhenry.eprt

I also made a model of this using sheet aluminum. Any time you put chines on a boat, that opens up some possibilities for home-building as you can easily generate developable panels. I showed this to Bob, but he hasn't told me whether it sucks or not, so I won't show it to you unless Bob says it's ok.

[Soñadora]

I would agree completly with the no 'motor' idea.

what I can't stand is to be on a boat that does have a motor but it doesn't work. It's like one of those friends you really want to get rid of but can't. Like lint or cat hair.

A giant 19.5' long skulling oar would be cool.

[Paps]

Looks nice Bob.

Still coming to grips with being robbed of a top 500 position.

Sons, Im thinking you would need a few more chines to make that work, especially in the Bow area. If we do go down that path I have a very interesting kit/ply system that might be useful.

My only suggestion would be a ring frame to lose the pole in the middle of the bunk. Doesnt have to be too hi tech, something in alloy would do.

[tdwombat]

Semi:
I appreciate your comments except the one about the round tabe. I DGARA what shape table you like, at this stage it is a very minor detail. Here I have changed it just for you.

I do not plan on even an outboard at this point so I don't need a way to get it on and off the boat and I sure don't need a gasoline lkr. But, that said they both could be designed into another version of the boat.

No, I want that sloped trunk to go forward so it's easy for me to make up the bed at night.
My berth just extends aft to be the seat/chair and I want to keep it all level so I get the feeling of a very long berth.
Duffle will be shoved all the way forward during the day and slid aft on the settee at night. That's how I do it now. Works for me and I have no bags on the cabin sole.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   151.85K   113 downloads

Dear Mr Perry,
While I have no objection to the round table cos I think it opens the space up I do have a problem with the music room. I am no great shakes but I do occasionally plunk about on my Ukelele. I am extremely concerned that If I stow it in the guitar room it will slide about and get damaged. Please advise.
Yours Faithfully
Analre Tentive. esq.

[Bob Perry]

Sons:
I got an "error reading file" mesage whn I tried to look at that.

Womby:
I have just the place for you to put that ukelele. And I guarantee it won't slide around.

[Soñadora]

Looks nice Bob.

Still coming to grips with being robbed of a top 500 position.

Sons, Im thinking you would need a few more chines to make that work, especially in the Bow area. If we do go down that path I have a very interesting kit/ply system that might be useful.

My only suggestion would be a ring frame to lose the pole in the middle of the bunk. Doesnt have to be too hi tech, something in alloy would do.

Actually, that's not the case. The issue is that the topside/freeboard will not be able to have any 'spherical' curvature or tumblehome or whatever you want to call it. It can have 'twist' as that's not considered curvature. Same with the bottom. Since the stem is fairly straight, that lends itself nicely to this kind of construction.

Trust me, the model I have made is correct. The hull itself would take 5 panels: topside p/s, hull p/s, transom.

[palindrome]

Bob whats the head room in the Galley, will it be a pop top?

How about a small molded in kicker bracket/footstep for those days when you want to get back on board after a nice swim or decide a small kicker is needed for those no wind against current days.

Pal

[Bob Perry]

Pal:
I think that would be a good idea if I wanted a kicker if any kind. But, and I repeat myself, if I am going to dream then I am going to dream of days on motorless/engineless sailing. It has been done. I have done it.

Of course in that mean old real world I can't imagine anyone not wanting some type of auxilliary power. I think an outboard would make sense and that would help keep the smell out of the interior.

I am concerned about the headroom. Here is another sketch showing the section thru where I would sit. It works but I'm not sure how it would feel compared to my current boat. There will be, once again, no pop top. But, you have seen those long hatches that swivel to the up position? I might consider something like that. They just look kind of funky. I am making the companionway hatch just as long as possible. The limit is the mast location.
I know, I know, "cat yawl". I am toying with the idea of raising the cabin trunk but I hate to do it. I don't want the thing ending up looking like a supository.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   192.79K   147 downloads

[palindrome]

Pal:
I think that would be a good idea if I wanted a kicker if any kind. But, and I repeat myself, if I am going to dream then I am going to dream of days on motorless/engineless sailing. It has been done. I have done it.

Of course in that mean old real world I can't imagine anyone not wanting some type of auxilliary power. I think an outboard would make sense and that would help keep the smell out of the interior.

I am concerned about the headroom. Here is another sketch showing the section thru where I would sit. It works but I'm not sure how it would feel compared to my current boat. There will be, once again, no pop top. But, you have seen those long hatches that swivel to the up position? I might consider something like that. They just look kind of funky. I am making the companionway hatch just as long as possible. The limit is the mast location.
I know, I know, "cat yawl". I am toying with the idea of raising the cabin trunk but I hate to do it. I don't want the thing ending up looking like a supository.

 CA_21_interior.pdf   192.79K   147 downloads

Ok scratch the motor bracket.

Sitting room looks fine but, how are you going to make a dinner in a comfortable manner. I spent some time on a Northwest 21 and even with a pop top it was not nice when it rained. I suppose a tarp over the boom with an open hatch would work though. Not sure about the long hatch but I think I know what you mean, similar to the forward tilt hatch opening on a Bristol Channel Cutter?