918 replies to this topic

[Gatekeeper]

I don't want the thing ending up looking like a supository.

Great...now I have to get that image out of my mind, and eat dinner.

[Soñadora]

Bob

Not sure why you're getting an error message. That's weird.

I've uploaded it as a .zip. Maybe that will work.

http://sail2live.com...s/johnhenry.zip

[sculpin]

The thought of bringing our 33 into our slip, in our tight little harbor (againest club rules) is a bit daunting.

I admire the guys that have the skill, but if I said I'm one of them, I'd be lying.

(But just ask me how good I am, under power, coming in??)

When I was a kid we had a bluenose sloop. Open cockpit day sail, so only 1500 lbs or so, 23 ft long. My father flat out refused to get an outboard for it, and then decided he'd had enough of using the tender - so got a marina slip. We had some fun times sailing that in...

Could I do it today? No way...

But I'm sure I could re-learn it and so could you. If the only options are that, or stay tied to the dock... no choice!

[sailman]

Sons:
I got an "error reading file" mesage whn I tried to look at that.

Womby:
I have just the place for you to put that ukelele. And I guarantee it won't slide around.

That's a dead sexy hull shape.

[sculpin]

- small single tank propane locker, if we are plumbing the boat for cooking gas

Just my 5 cents.

Small boat, no engine - go with a non-pressure alcohol stove... Useless drain on the battery to run the solenoid and the propane sniffer...

For electricity - plan in a solar panel to keep the lights fed?

[Whisper]

Joli:
I was driving home last night thinking of the same thing.
I have long had an idea for a 21' pocket cruiser. It is pretty much worked out in my head in terms of hull and deck.
I know you have the huge and beautiful C&C but that's not even on the horizon for most of us.
But damn it. Just getting out there and putting along from harbor to harbor is sure fun. And I find that the more shit I remove from the process the more I like it. If you don't have it, it can't break down.

Maybe its time for the WLYDO to tackle a pocket cruiser.

Well, I'm back online again after another long absence.

I LOVE the pocket cruiser idea. Flickas made my dick hard for many years.

[olaf hart]

No engine? Try a Yuloh

http://www.woodenboa...scullthree.html

[Bob Perry]

Whisper:
Welcome back.
You've been gone too long. As the old blues tunes say.

Olaf:
As much of a Sinophile as I am I just can't see me sweeping my way into a harbor with that " ben dongshee" (Mandarin, look it up)
On the other hand, it might be a lot of fun to try.
I'm already thinking of sea chanties that would go with the rythm.

Ooooooohhhhh
I've been to New York and I've been to LA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Veeger]

Pal:
I think that would be a good idea if I wanted a kicker if any kind. But, and I repeat myself, if I am going to dream then I am going to dream of days on motorless/engineless sailing. It has been done. I have done it.

Of course in that mean old real world I can't imagine anyone not wanting some type of auxilliary power. I think an outboard would make sense and that would help keep the smell out of the interior.

I am concerned about the headroom. Here is another sketch showing the section thru where I would sit. It works but I'm not sure how it would feel compared to my current boat. There will be, once again, no pop top. But, you have seen those long hatches that swivel to the up position? I might consider something like that. They just look kind of funky. I am making the companionway hatch just as long as possible. The limit is the mast location.
I know, I know, "cat yawl". I am toying with the idea of raising the cabin trunk but I hate to do it. I don't want the thing ending up looking like a supository.

Cat yawl? Who'd ever suggest sumpin like that?

BTW, as I've grown, ah, as I've come to prefer comfort more, I keep realizing that I really like a nice comfy seat and armrest for my coffee, or a fine malt say. So, being as how this fine craft is essentially a singlehander, why not rig a nice seat that doesn't do double duty. For instance, might it be possible to have it on centerline facing aft? That deck edge becomes far less of an issue then. The table could be mounted on a swing arm from the side. Swing to have it in front of you for dining in solitary splendor or doodling another WLYDO concept, then push it outboard for stowage and in order to break out that fine musical instrument of yours. All the while, you can keep an eye out aft for a late arrival to the anchorage or to see how she's swinging when the tide shifts-- all from the comfort of your finely upholstered seat. You might even nod off comfy like while you're settin there!

[Paul Romain Tober]

Bob

Not sure why you're getting an error message. That's weird.

I've uploaded it as a .zip. Maybe that will work.

http://sail2live.com...s/johnhenry.zip

Very nice Sons, can we see the 5-strake version? I am a little skeptical that flat panels could take all that twist up near the bow. Please disabuse me of my doubt.

I am somewhat partial to cat yawls, but a mizzen, an outboard and a transom-hung rudder all on one boat creates a bit of a tangle. I suppose both the outboard and the mizzen could be off-center but that means a boomkin for sheeting the mizzen rather than to the aft quarters of the boat and the motor isn't going to like the boat heeled.

romaine

[tdwombat]

Sons:
I got an "error reading file" mesage whn I tried to look at that.

Womby:
I have just the place for you to put that ukelele. And I guarantee it won't slide around.

Ah...speaking of supositories........

otoh....

Hey Sons.......I cannot get the file to open using the SolidWorks Viewer.....any thoughts ?

edit - Sons - sorted.....the zip file worked provided I open in IE and not Firefox. Good work btw.

[WHL]

Bob, here's the rig:

I = 25ft
J = 7ft 10in
Area FT = 98sqft
P = 27ft 1in
E = 10ft 8.5in
Flat top projection 3ft
Area Main = 204sqft
Total main + 100%FT = 302sqft
Area Asymmetrical = 377sqft
Area 110% = 111.77sqft
Area 80% = 78sqft
With the Flat top, SA/D is 23.25

Spreader sweep 15 degrees using a 10 degree sheeting angle on the 110% LP pf 8ft 7.31245782in approx
 ca21_rig_flat_top_a.jpg   201.43K   152 downloads

[olaf hart]

[quote name='Bob Perry' date='Dec 16 2008, 11:28 AM' post='2041852'

Olaf:
As much of a Sinophile as I am I just can't see me sweeping my way into a harbor with that " ben dongshee" (Mandarin, look it up)


[/quote]
Unfortunately Google cant translate it.
I will take a guess though.
Is it a natural physiological response to images of the amazing Shay Lauren?

[Greever]

Semi:
I appreciate your comments except the one about the round tabe. I DGARA what shape table you like, at this stage it is a very minor detail. Here I have changed it just for you.

I do not plan on even an outboard at this point so I don't need a way to get it on and off the boat and I sure don't need a gasoline lkr. But, that said they both could be designed into another version of the boat.

No, I want that sloped trunk to go forward so it's easy for me to make up the bed at night.
My berth just extends aft to be the seat/chair and I want to keep it all level so I get the feeling of a very long berth.
Duffle will be shoved all the way forward during the day and slid aft on the settee at night. That's how I do it now. Works for me and I have no bags on the cabin sole.

Looks good Maestro,but: Make the table so you can lower it and make tie the two berths together. Even sleeping solo you will have more room.

The solid bobstay is cool...

[sailSAK]

Ok, here is a completely off the track question:

Could the hull be made of aluminum? I got two boatyards in town that build aluminum fishing boats that are in the hurt for new orders.
Maybe a carbon or conventional glass deck to save on weight? That hull would be cheap to tool and weld up...

I know 20ft is darn small for an AL sailboat, but before I posted this I checked on yachtworld and sure enough found 1 20ish Al hull. Yeah.. just one... but it looks fast!



http://www.yachtworl...Brittany/France

Edit: that looks bigger than 23' to me. Lost in translation?

[WHL]

Much more expensive in aluminum and mixing carbon and aluminum..perhaps not a good idea.

[Burnsy]

I'm either very spoiled and/or have a completely inefficient layout for cruising. 33' seems pretty small to me for a couple for any extended period of time. 28 or less is definitely very 'pocket'.

Perhaps I need more experience trying a week + on the hook or under sail to dial in 'optimal'. Or an ocean crossing or 2 under the belt. If only time & funds allowed.

[Ishmael]

I know a guy (B2S has sailed with him plenty) who is about 6'4", not a small man, and sailed the Pacific circuit in a Flicka. Learned to like cornflakes with water, since he had no milk. There would certainly be no bacon butties after a week away from land.
I sailed long enough on small boats to appreciate the amount of room necessary once a female is aboard. I could still be cruising on a Shark if I didn't have my mate to make me want more. And as Veeger said, comfort is increasingly important in our dotage.

[tdwombat]

I'm either very spoiled and/or have a completely inefficient layout for cruising. 33' seems pretty small to me for a couple for any extended period of time. 28 or less is definitely very 'pocket'.

Perhaps I need more experience trying a week + on the hook or under sail to dial in 'optimal'. Or an ocean crossing or 2 under the belt. If only time & funds allowed.

Burnsy,

The Dehler DB1 is a Van de Stadt isn't it ? The Womboat is a vds34 so it is similar in size and layout if not in performance. OK for two people for limited length of time. You cannot stay away from home for too long as limited storage capacity means frequent visits to food stores and boozatoriums are required. We can carry about a months worth of non perishables and when we get the old icebox wired up as an extra 12v refrigerator we should be able to carry around two weeks of perishables if we can cope with long life milk and bake our own bread.

I find the big problem long term is meat. Without a freezer (fridges are bad enough thanks) you can really only keep meat for a few weeks so an ability to catch waterborn produce would not hurt. A diet of fish and rice, tinned fruit and vegetables is not all bad although I'd be longing for a lump of dead cow before too long.

To be honest about it I find it hard to figure how anyone can cruise longterm on much less than 40'. The Greeves 36 was not a bad effort but for me I like to lie down rather than sit up so I am not 100% convinced about the dinette arrangement in the deck saloon but that was Greeves wish and he was the client.

I doubt that it is possible to come up with a perfect layout without some degree of compromise though at 40' I reckon it is just about doable and you have enough storage space to stay away from civilisation for quite some time as long as you can catch the odd fish.

Onboard the 34'er showering is a mite cramped, galley could be bigger and the v-berth is less than the perfect double bed but all in all it's not too bad.

In fine weather when away from onlookers we shower on deck, once the engine box and the chart table have been taken over by the cook the galley space is not too bad and in really fine weather we sleep in the cockpit or wherever the effects on wee drinky too many takes us.

In cold weather the shower is as it is, the galley can cope just as well and the confines of the v berth are not so much of a worry cos coziness is a boon rather than a sweaty nuisance.

Reality is though that for most cruising other than away to really remote areas you are going to be able to at least partially restock perishables at least once a month.

We also have not done much offshore, mainly coastal so we don't have to worry about too much cooking at sea as long as we prepare in advace.

Sorry, this has gone on longer than intended but the 21'er is a BP fantasy for what is in effect a glorified waterborn campervan or at least that is how it strikes me, even the 32'er was not much more than that. Neither was conceived as a genuine live aboard but for their intended purpose they are both pretty cool really. As least I think they are.

Cheers

[palindrome]

I'm either very spoiled and/or have a completely inefficient layout for cruising. ^{33' seems pretty small to me} for a couple for any extended period of time. 28 or less is definitely very 'pocket'.

Perhaps I need more experience trying a week + on the hook or under sail to dial in 'optimal'. Or an ocean crossing or 2 under the belt. If only time & funds allowed.

...The Womboat is a vds34 so it is similar in size and layout if not in performance. OK for two people for limited length of time. You cannot stay away from home for too long as limited storage capacity means frequent visits to food stores and boozatoriums are required. We can carry about a months worth of non perishables and when we get the old icebox wired up as an extra 12v refrigerator we should be able to carry around two weeks of perishables if we can cope with long life milk and bake our own bread.

I find the big problem long term is meat. Without a freezer (fridges are bad enough thanks) you can really only keep meat for a few weeks so an ability to catch waterborn produce would not hurt. A diet of fish and rice, tinned fruit and vegetables is not all bad although I'd be longing for a lump of dead cow before too long.

T^{o be honest about it I find it hard to figure how anyone can cruise longterm on much less than 40'.} The Greeves 36 was not a bad effort but for me I like to lie down rather than sit up so I am not 100% convinced about the dinette arrangement in the deck saloon but that was Greeves wish and he was the client.


Cheers

Womby, I assume that your boats are modern style cruiser / racers as I am not familiar with the boat. But there-in lies the problem, most modern boats are shallow bilged which limits storage, and internal layout is a compromise between what looks good and what really works. We live full time on Pal which is a full keeler of 34 on deck, but in our keel in addition to the 8000 pounds of lead is mains fuel of 100 gallons and water at 125 gallons, our freezer can hold 3 or more weeks of meat for 2, thanks to solar panels, but keeping greens fresh is a problem though. Booze is an issue but we usually depart with 40 or so bottles of wine for summer holidays and Scotch of course. Hmmm, where was I going with this, oh ya, its not the length, but the keel configuration and layout. We have a sister ship that is different inside and it is horrible, less open space and makes it claustrophobic. However, the temp outside right now is - 5C so cruising downunder would be refreshing right about now.

Pal

[olaf hart]

Yep, we are 30' full keel, good headroom, proper shower space, big tanks in the bilge and storage to burn.
Its only a negative if the wind is less than 10 knots, but a decent motor and prop soon fix that.

[palindrome]

Yep, we are 30' full keel, good headroom, proper shower space, big tanks in the bilge and storage to burn.
Its only a negative if the wind is less than 10 knots, but a decent motor and prop soon fix that.

Strangely we perform very well in light air, but with all white sails flying at just under 1200 square feet we can move. But you are right that 35 horses with Campbell prop sure helps.

I just want to be clear, I am not putting anyone's boat down. But all the designs are different and life is a trade off.

Pal

[WHL]

.............snip................The Greeves 36 was not a bad effort but for me I like to lie down rather than sit up so I am not 100% convinced about the dinette arrangement in the deck saloon but that was Greeves wish and he was the client.
..........snip...........

Wombat, to correct the record and give due repsect to the other contributions (notably Paps and Burnsey), the CA 36, had two base layouts, one a traditional interior and the second, a pilot house based on the standard/traditional. In total there were 4 Pilot House versions that were drawn up:
The traditional layout with a Pilot House deck
The Paps Ver "F" (galley up)
The Burnsey Ver "E" (galley down)
but the only one modeled in 3D was the tugboat with steam horn and interior wheel i.e. the "Greever" version.

I wouldn't write off the other layouts based on a misconception that the CA PH was only drawn to the tugboat spec.
WHL

[Joli]

It looks good.

Couple notes: with swept spreaders the checks are not needed.
it would be good for people to learn to "sail in" We sail into moorings with our current boat sans engine provided it's not a lee field.
I would guess an easy 3 knots bs with a the main up, ap on, flat water, zero wind, standing on the rail, beer in hand, rocking the boat a bit.

Prod or overhang? Too funny, over hang has its advantages but pulling waterline to the max is the flavor of the month. I decline to enter the fray.

The style is pumpkin seed not suppository. As TT once quipped "What the hell were you thinking, even a turd is tapered on both ends."

[WHL]

It looks good.

Couple notes: with swept spreaders the checks are not needed.
it would be good for people to learn to "sail in" We sail into moorings with our current boat sans engine provided it's not a lee field.
I would guess an easy 3 knots bs with a the main up, ap on, flat water, zero wind, standing on the rail, beer in hand, rocking the boat a bit.
Prod or overhang? Too funny, over hang has its advantages but pulling waterline to the max is the flavor of the month. I decline to enter the fray.
The style is pumpkin seed not suppository. As TT once quipped "What the hell were you thinking, even a turd is tapered on both ends."

The spreaders aren't swept very much. The reason for the checks: A sort stubby boat with a shallow forefoot could pound a bit in a short chop. I am assuming that the rig will have a reasonably flexible section. Since we have runners for the masthead kite, we might as well have checks to keep the mid section of the mast quiet in a chop. In any case, having been a Star sailor, runners without checks is like a guitar with a few missing strings.

[Bob Perry]

Hung:
Thanks for the tig layout. I'll put it on the boat today and see how it looks. I was thinking originaly about a masthead genoa on the prod. I have saved the port cockpit locker for sails and I could stuff the chute into the focsle.

The boat could be built in alu/ Sons has aready been working on a multi chine version wth flat plating.I will play with the rif that Hung has paid out today.

The whole idea of this table is that the support peg swivels or rotates and the table top also swivels and rotates independant of the support leg. It gives a lot of options. Table does not lower. Mast is in the way to make the berth a real double.

I have no p[roblem with check stays. In fact for this boat I like them.

I'm going to need a battery for run light and Tillermaster. Maybe some of those floppy slar panels would be the ticket.

[Soñadora]

Now that Bob's mentioned it, here's the alu version. Single chine. It should be apparent regarding the lack of tumblehome. Features like that cannot be modeled in Solidworks Sheet Metal as they are technically not developable shapes.

If anyone's interested, I can generate a drawing from this which would show the flats required to make the boat.

Here's the alu model:

http://sail2live.com...es/bobshull.htm

[WHL]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

[oregonarchist]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

My thoughts exactly -- soon as aluminum was mentioned, my thoughts turned to wood! I'll drive up weekends to help, Hung! Then, I go home and build mine with what I learned. I'll bring lots of good Oregon beer.

[Paul Romain Tober]

Now that Bob's mentioned it, here's the alu version. Single chine. It should be apparent regarding the lack of tumblehome. Features like that cannot be modeled in Solidworks Sheet Metal as they are technically not developable shapes.

If anyone's interested, I can generate a drawing from this which would show the flats required to make the boat.

Here's the alu model:

http://sail2live.com...es/bobshull.htm

Nice, Sons. I want to build one too. Continue.

romaine

[Bob Perry]

Hang on a moment.
I still have not seen what Sons has done with my hull.
I would really like to see what you are talking about. Please?
It would not be much more work to build the real hull with one chine.

[sailSAK]

http://sail2live.com...es/bobshull.htm

Looks like you could stick a 115 Honda on the back of that thing
Might be just the ticket in the Alaskan market.
What would it look like with a hard dodger?

[Jose Carumba]

I think this boat, as Bob designed it, lends itself very well to a strip planked/bead and cove bottom wth plywood topsides, similar to Paul Bieker's Riptide. I saw the Riptide hull under construction and it looked like it would be buildable by a reasonably talented non professional boat builder. Bob's interior looks simple enough to be built from plywood as well. The whole boat, except for the bottom and maybe the deck, could be kitted up from laser cut panels. This would include precut strongback and mold stations too.

Joe

[WHL]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

My thoughts exactly -- soon as aluminum was mentioned, my thoughts turned to wood! I'll drive up weekends to help, Hung! Then, I go home and build mine with what I learned. I'll bring lots of good Oregon beer.

That would be fun. The bead and cove strip approach would be quite quick and the smell of yellow cedar while you work is a bit like that comforting smell of a good pipe baccy (eh Bob?)
If we had the frames CNC cut, we could build a strong back and mount the frames in a weekend, and have most if not all of the hull strips laid up in a week between the two of us. Bring a block plane, chisel, plenty of clamps, and beer and off we go !!! Too bad you don't live up here Gerry it would be an interesting project through the winter

[PHM]

I would agree completly with the no 'motor' idea.

what I can't stand is to be on a boat that does have a motor but it doesn't work. It's like one of those friends you really want to get rid of but can't. Like lint or cat hair.

A giant 19.5' long skulling oar would be cool.

A sculling oar would be cool. Could also have a light weight electric trolling motor for the same purpose (not sure how much thrust there would be however). Although I feel totally comfortable docking, anchoring etc without a motor (and have done so many times on boats ranging from 20'-50' with engine problems), the one thing I worry about is becoming a sitting duck for a barge or ship if I have no way to move when becalmed. Otherwise, I completely agree that a 21' can be easily handled under sail even in tight docking situations.

[Veeger]

I think this boat, as Bob designed it, lends itself very well to a strip planked/bead and cove bottom wth plywood topsides, similar to Paul Bieker's Riptide. I saw the Riptide hull under construction and it looked like it would be buildable by a reasonably talented non professional boat builder. Bob's interior looks simple enough to be built from plywood as well. The whole boat, except for the bottom and maybe the deck, could be kitted up from laser cut panels. This would include precut strongback and mold stations too.

Joe

Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic. It seems like every time someone sees chines, they immediately think 'aha, plywood!' But having started strip on the bottom, you're all set up to just finish the job that way. Plywood is heavier than equivalent strips and much less 'fun' to work with. The advantage is the perception that one gets to 'fill in' larger hull spaces more quickly and with fewer joints/seams. Maybe an advantage over plank on frame, but less so with strip building.

Is this a valid comment?

[oregonarchist]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

My thoughts exactly -- soon as aluminum was mentioned, my thoughts turned to wood! I'll drive up weekends to help, Hung! Then, I go home and build mine with what I learned. I'll bring lots of good Oregon beer.

That would be fun. The bead and cove strip approach would be quite quick and the smell of yellow cedar while you work is a bit like that comforting smell of a good pipe baccy (eh Bob?)
If we had the frames CNC cut, we could build a strong back and mount the frames in a weekend, and have most if not all of the hull strips laid up in a week between the two of us. Bring a block plane, chisel, plenty of clamps, and beer and off we go !!! Too bad you don't live up here Gerry it would be an interesting project through the winter

Too bad, indeed. It's not so far as to not be doable, though, given the time frames you are talking there. I could easily see a few long weekends, and a full week push where needed.

Not quite the same as an evenings-and-occasional-weekend-day poke at it all winter project, but I reckon we could get it done. Be very cool either way. Find me a job up there, maybe I'll move -- it's not like I don't like the neighborhood neighbourhood!

[WHL]

Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic. It seems like every time someone sees chines, they immediately think 'aha, plywood!' But having started strip on the bottom, you're all set up to just finish the job that way. Plywood is heavier than equivalent strips and much less 'fun' to work with. The advantage is the perception that one gets to 'fill in' larger hull spaces more quickly and with fewer joints/seams. Maybe an advantage over plank on frame, but less so with strip building.

Is this a valid comment?

Being a strip junkie, I can only agree with everything you have said.

[oregonarchist]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic. It seems like every time someone sees chines, they immediately think 'aha, plywood!' But having started strip on the bottom, you're all set up to just finish the job that way. Plywood is heavier than equivalent strips and much less 'fun' to work with. The advantage is the perception that one gets to 'fill in' larger hull spaces more quickly and with fewer joints/seams. Maybe an advantage over plank on frame, but less so with strip building.

Is this a valid comment?

Structural stuff aside, part of the appeal of the non-plywood approach is purely artistic -- see Hung's post quoted above -- by laying in different woods, you can do a lot of really cool stuff visually. Check out WHL's kayak. It's beeuutiiiful!
http://forums.sailin...p...st&id=68098

[Veeger]

Sons, can you put a link to the file I can download?
The hull would be an easy build in bead and cove, red and yellow cedar strip too. Boy that could look good with some accent yellow cedar to mark the boot, a mahogany sheer, purple heart stem...ooohhh... 7oz cloth sandwhich, West System epoxy, perhaps some kevlar cloth below waterline.

I WANT ONE...I WANT TO BUILD ONE

Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic. It seems like every time someone sees chines, they immediately think 'aha, plywood!' But having started strip on the bottom, you're all set up to just finish the job that way. Plywood is heavier than equivalent strips and much less 'fun' to work with. The advantage is the perception that one gets to 'fill in' larger hull spaces more quickly and with fewer joints/seams. Maybe an advantage over plank on frame, but less so with strip building.

Is this a valid comment?

Structural stuff aside, part of the appeal of the non-plywood approach is purely artistic -- see Hung's post quoted above -- by laying in different woods, you can do a lot of really cool stuff visually. Check out WHL's kayak. It's beeuutiiiful!
http://forums.sailin...p...st&id=68098

Oh, YEAH! That would be the work of a serious strip junkey! Noice!

[Bob Perry]

If you think I am going to sit here quietly and see my exquisite little shapely hull turned into a conically developed controlled shape then you are mistaken. The last thing I want is a boat that screams "Home Built!". I just had a nice chat with my councilor, Hung. Chines can be beautiful, Thunderbird sloop for example, and chines can be crude. I truly appreciate the fun Sons has had with my hull, I have not been able to see it yet, but at the same time it was never in the overall picture to turn this boat into a simple one chine design. This is a complex shape with a lot of effort put into making the bow just right and the stern just right and the middle just right.

That must be another boat.
Working on the rig now. Will have it later today. It's hot.

[Jose Carumba]

[/quote]


Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic. It seems like every time someone sees chines, they immediately think 'aha, plywood!' But having started strip on the bottom, you're all set up to just finish the job that way. Plywood is heavier than equivalent strips and much less 'fun' to work with. The advantage is the perception that one gets to 'fill in' larger hull spaces more quickly and with fewer joints/seams. Maybe an advantage over plank on frame, but less so with strip building.

Is this a valid comment?
[/quote]

I think it is a valid comment regarding weight, but I do not think the weight difference would be enough to cause any concern. I do think the plywood would speed up the process by eliminating some of the strip planking and by eliminating some of the fairing. A sheer strake could be added for eye appeal and to provide a place for a routed cove stripe.

That being said, a totally strip planked boat would be quite pretty on the outside with some or all of the hull finished bright, and the interior would be great finished bright as well. In any case the boat lends itself to several different construction methods any of which will build a nice boat.

BTW I used Riptide as a basic comparison but it was built with foam "strips" glassed over and the sides were foam cored flat stock.

Joe

[SemiSalt]

Not being a builder type (but aspiring one day), I'm wondering whether the whole plywood concept might be flawed logic.

Designer Phil Bolger has written many times that ply appears to be easier, but may not be due to tricky bevels, and the material contaminates the investment; when you are done, you have a plywood boat. For some reason, most amateur builders think it makes the most sense to dumb down the design, when if fact it may be more successful to smarten up builder, i. e. get some experience before you dive into a big project. Bolger also makes the point that pros using carvel planking over steam-bent frames built that way because it was the fastest and cheapest way to get the desired result, not just be ornery. (They were ornery for some other reason.)

That said, there is a building diary here: http://www.jwboatdes...ner/updates.htm of a very nice ply-planked boat about the length of Bob's daydream. The boat came to grief, but that was the builder/sailor's mistake, not the designer's.

One advantage of strip building for sole builder is that the strips are much smaller than the plywood panels.

[Jose Carumba]

If you think I am going to sit here quietly and see my exquisite little shapely hull turned into a conically developed controlled shape then you are mistaken. The last thing I want is a boat that screams "Home Built!". I just had a nice chat with my councilor, Hung. Chines can be beautiful, Thunderbird sloop for example, and chines can be crude. I truly appreciate the fun Sons has had with my hull, I have not been able to see it yet, but at the same time it was never in the overall picture to turn this boat into a simple one chine design. This is a complex shape with a lot of effort put into making the bow just right and the stern just right and the middle just right.

That must be another boat.
Working on the rig now. Will have it later today. It's hot.

Sorry Bob, a closer look at your lines reveals the compound shape of the topsides. This would still be fairly easy to strip plank. As far as good looking chined hulls go I really like the Riptide series by Bieker.

http://www.biekerboa..._35_Images.html

Joe

[puddin]

Cold molded.... yummmm! Ah, that's just me.

Attached Files

•  docked_dolly.jpg   184.15K   22 downloads

[Bob Perry]

I have looked at Sons hard chine lines.
As usual he has done a wonderful job playing with my parent lines.
But, that is not my boat and that is not a boat I would be interested in.
As Sons warned me it is a bit "brutal".
I am after a delicate, complex shape that uses chines to control volume and not as a geometric artifact.
I am very happy with my shape as drawn.

So if you guys want to go off on a flat panel, conical developement, chine direction that's fine with me but it has nothing to do with the shape I want.
I want to control geometry.
I do not want geometry controlling me.

[puddin]

I have looked at Sons hard chine lines.
As usual he has done a wonderful job playing with my parent lines.
But, that is not my boat and that is not a boat I would be interested in.
As Sons warned me it is a bit "brutal".
I am after a delicate, complex shape that uses chines to control volume and not as a geometric artifact.
I am very happy with my shape as drawn.

So if you guys want to go off on a flat panel, conical developement, chine direction that's fine with me but it has nothing to do with the shape I want.
I want to control geometry.
I do not want geometry controlling me.

I agree with you 100%. Looking forward to see what you get done today!

[Occams Razor]

I have looked at Sons hard chine lines.
As usual he has done a wonderful job playing with my parent lines.
But, that is not my boat and that is not a boat I would be interested in.
As Sons warned me it is a bit "brutal".
I am after a delicate, complex shape that uses chines to control volume and not as a geometric artifact.
I am very happy with my shape as drawn.

So if you guys want to go off on a flat panel, conical developement, chine direction that's fine with me but it has nothing to do with the shape I want.
I want to control geometry.
I do not want geometry controlling me.

Hi Bob,
Thanks for that - that's the answer I was thinking of way back when I asked about these chines on this vessel. Although I didn't ask the question correctly the first time around, what I was trying to get to was "the chines don't look like they're there for panel construction, nor for planing sections" so I didn't quite get it - thanks again
Mitch

[Slim]

Tyvek and Coroplast - building materials of the future.

[tdwombat]

Oh oh...whoopseeedoodle.......guys I mistyped (ha bloody ha)......when I was talking about not liking the 36 layout I was talking through my marsupial bottom.....I meant the 45.....it was late and I think I was drunk.....no it wasn't it was 1500 and I was at work, sober as a judge.....no excuses...just got it wrong. I simply got the 45 and the 36 mixed up in the confined space between my ears. I wasn't meaning to insult any of the work done, just a personal preference on my part for settees rather than the dinette arrangement.

The reason I specifically rabbitted on in replying to Burnsy's post was the similarity between our two boats , albeit his is more of a racer than ours. I think I was really trying to show that for long term cruising a 34' cruiser/racer is not going to be the perfect choice. Pal's Baba and Olaf's Halmatic are both better laid out than the VDS34. The H30 should have less room than ours but we are small of bilge and our water tanks are under the settee berths so no storage there. If I had my way I'd junk the quarter berth and put more storage back there but not really practical at this juncture. What we do have are plastic bins under the cockpit floor and if we were to go off long term in her I'd build in permanent lockers there. The Baba would have to win hands down for liveability. Ironically , because ours is steel, we are not even going to have much of a performance advantage over the Halmatic. Friends of ours have the cold moulded version and they would be much speedier than us in light winds. I must say I have always liked those small C&Ns. At one time the Nich 34 was my dream boat.



Ours is slightly different but pretty close to this.

I guess we should take this discussion elsewhere...sorry for the hijack BP.

ps - Pal....Cruising about down here this time of year ...indeed any time of year....is not half bad. We certainly do not put her away for winter, indeed we probably spend more time on board in the winter months than summer cos the anchorages are less crowded.

[WHL]

Structural stuff aside, part of the appeal of the non-plywood approach is purely artistic -- see Hung's post quoted above -- by laying in different woods, you can do a lot of really cool stuff visually. Check out WHL's kayak. It's beeuutiiiful!
http://forums.sailin...p...st&id=68098

aaaw shucks... ty OA.
The nice aspect of working with strips, is the ability to conform to some very interesting and subtle compound curves. including the subtle chines in Bob's hull. The resulting glass/epoxy/cedar sandwich is pretty robust, plus you have the normal stringers and bulkheads etc... Like many building approaches (and particularly true with strip) long boarding and fairing is a labor of love, but you sure get to know every inch the boat and if done right, oooohhh it's hot running a hand over it !!

Sorry I digress...

As The more I look at those lines and the concept, the more infectious it becomes.

[Bob Perry]

If you go back and study my original lines you will see the chine is pretty much invisible forward of station 3 ( 0-10 breakdown). I use the chine to gain volume for the seats and interior while adding volume outboard aft to help with form stability and to gibe me a shape thay may want to surf quick then a boat wityh a rounded bilge aft. The chine helps me flatten the buttock aft. This works with high powered boats.

[sailman]

Here are the Al 3D lines. I like this boat! Simple, nice volume for one person. Looks like she would track well.


 stbd.jpg   22.71K   31 downloads  Stern.jpg   18.85K   23 downloads

 Under.jpg   23.15K   15 downloads  bow.jpg   18.56K   15 downloads

[sailSAK]

So with the piss-off Bob Perry version, what thickness Aluminum should be used? .1" .125"? eDrawings gives about 700 sq. feet of hull SA. I would like to get a rough idea what the material cost would be, and what the hull would weigh.
Also thinking that the whole design could be put into emachineshop.com's software to get an instant price quote... hmmm...

[Veeger]

Here are the Al 3D lines. I like this boat! Simple, nice volume for one person. Looks like she would track well.


 stbd.jpg   22.71K   31 downloads  Stern.jpg   18.85K   23 downloads

 Under.jpg   23.15K   15 downloads  bow.jpg   18.56K   15 downloads

Eww! That is most definitely NOT Bob's boat. I see a certain likeness to the profile but Nope, nah--anh, ix-nay. (Somebody done good modeling it but...)

[Bob Perry]

Ok, here is my drawing of the boat with the rig that Hung provided.
We have plenty of SA and options with the prod to carry a big screatcher or an asym.
The tall companionway hatch is my way of trying to squeeze a litte headroom in at the galley. I plan on using the hatch runners as they go forward for hand holds. I plan on access the "foredeck" thru the forward hatch most of the time. I should be able to reach the jib tack easily for sail changes.

 CA_21_sail_plan.pdf   92.12K   237 downloads

Hey Slow:
It might be nice if you chose another name for that version.

[Jose Carumba]

Super sexy Bob. Really sweet.

[Bob Perry]

Thanks Joe.
Do you have any suggestion for how to handle that tall hatch. I need the height but the look is a bit hard on the eyes.
In fact, maybe I don't need the height. I'll try a version with a more conventional hatch profile.

[Nomenclature]

That is is looking great, that is what they should replace the Flicka 20 with.
I think you guys need to develop this into a Box rule. Then each of you can
tweak your hull forms to your desired method of fabrication. If you want your
Sliding Gunter Rigged Cat Yawl. then you can have it your way.

[Bob Perry]

I needed to do something about that "pillbox hat" hatch.

 CA_21_sail_plan_B.pdf   92.04K   204 downloads

[olaf hart]

What about using one of those plexiglass bubbles in the sliding hatch, like the old school transatlantic racers used ?
Headroom and keep a lookout in the rain.
You do have rain in the Northwest, don't you Bob?

[Bob Perry]

Olaf:
I have been thinking about one of those bubbles.
I need to check he interior drawings again to see how much headroom I need to gain before its worth the eye spinach.
If I can't stand up then I don't want to have to crouch too much. I'll just sit down. I can stand wuth the hatch open. I can even use one of the hatch dodgers to give me probably about 16" od additinal headroom I need one anyway. I'm kind of burned out today. I'll look at it again tomorow.

[mpr]

Super sexy Bob. Really sweet.

If today is piss off the designer day, let me get my points in edgewise . . . .

1. A pop top WITH sliding hatch, made intelligently (prevent leaks) out of good materials is what makes sense

2. If you could lift the keel, a la the Andrews 28, you've got a more versitile boat and way bigger target market, even though it makes for complications down below. Could make two versions with one hull? (Hey, I see a gas tank under the cockpit, even though BP won't use it.)

3. I don't understand the utility of 4" sidedecks (aesthetics only?); seems to be asking for trouble; if you look at the drawing of the seated person, the head touches the cabin trunk; take it out to the hull (raised deck) and he'll be happier.

Now that's off my chest, I'll kiss up by saying this . . .

1. I like the prod, it looks cool. I would want to try to hang an anchor off there too; possible?

2. The Perry lines look sweet and should stay the way they are. No aluminum slab sided stuff. How about foam sandwich epoxy or vinylester for full hull and deck? (Like Farrier hulls)

[tdwombat]

BP, the hatch is hard on the eyes at first but it does grow on me. I'd love to see this version in the full 3D. OTOH, if you were to trim some height I'd be quite happy for the head room to come under the dodger.

One of the fun things of these exercises has been keeping the 'target market' happy. The full chine thing that slow cruiser did was not bad, Paps and I were obviously pushing for more of a flush deck but you stuck to your TM and its worked out well.

The runners, upper and lower, both come back to the same control point, correct ? Manual operation ? No need for a winch ? Would something like a highfield lever give enough slackness or would that be overkill on this baby ?

On other matters not directed at BP

Please no pop top. I don't care. I'd much rather a big sliding hatch with hatch dodger and the rig a boom tent.

ref the small side decks....aesthetically if you are not going to go full flush deck ala the Ranger then you have to have something or it just ends up looking like a nasty bubbly thing.

[Soñadora]

Here are the Al 3D lines. I like this boat! Simple, nice volume for one person. Looks like she would track well.


 stbd.jpg   22.71K   31 downloads  Stern.jpg   18.85K   23 downloads

 Under.jpg   23.15K   15 downloads  bow.jpg   18.56K   15 downloads

Eww! That is most definitely NOT Bob's boat. I see a certain likeness to the profile but Nope, nah--anh, ix-nay. (Somebody done good modeling it but...)

guys....as mentioned, it was an experiment. Nothing more. No offense intended.

Gonna sit this one out.

[WHL]

..........snip..........
The runners, upper and lower, both come back to the same control point, correct ? Manual operation ? No need for a winch ? Would something like a highfield lever give enough slackness or would that be overkill on this baby ?
.......snip..........

My Wet Wascally Wombat, you are dating yourself... "highfield levers".
I suggest runners/checks go to the corners of the transom so that you could tack with both runners on and not screw up the lee side of the main badly. That relieves time pressure and some stress in going upwind sailing solo/short handed.

The runners/checks could be set up exactly like a Star i.e. the check's could have a small 4:1 tackle with a snap shackle attached to a ring that the runner tackle is attached to. From the common ring, you have one line running to a block on the rail/transom corner and forward to a small clutch which is angled towards a winch. You could even cascade/block the lower part too to a cleat, so that a winch is out of the equation. Either way works and could work together to eliminate the Star Gorilla crew requirement i.e. this is the Retired Gentleman's Star Runner Arrangment (RTSRA - Pronounced with a Cornish Pirate's accent as "RoightSirrrArrgh"
Now in use, you could hear Bob talking to himself (as we all do sailing solo ), saying "Ready About?" and hearing "RoightSirrArrgh"


EDIT: Note: the snap shackle on the bottom double block on the checks is not a Star setup but suggested so that checks can be moved forward to the shrouds when not needed.

[WHL]

guys....as mentioned, it was an experiment. Nothing more. No offense intended.
Gonna sit this one out.

SONS...GET YOUR BUTT BACK IN HERE !!! You did say it was tougher to render this. Have a brewski, sit down, feet up , take a breath.

[olaf hart]

I know this is a bit late in the design cycle, but this is a neat "one off " of a Ranger type in Sydney.
It has a modern underbody and an older topsides.

http://www.woodenboa...ead.php?t=86934

[Bob Perry]

Sons:
It would be my personal preference if you stayed in contact with the project. We would all enjoy seeing your renderings of what we come up with. You add a note of entertainment as well as a touch of design aesthetic. Our efforts here at the WLYDO would have been greatly reduced without your input and effort. In short, your work makes us smile. You bring it all to life.

If you want to play in the world of yacht design you need to have a tough skin. Mine's so tough that when I went in for my last physical
the gal couldn't find a spot where she could jab the needle in. "What have you been doing?" " Oh yeah, I forgot to warn you. I'm a yacht designer."
Sons, just rub some dirt on it.

Get your ass back in here.
Please,
Maestro.

Mpr:
All will be revealed.
Right, a lifting keel. That would do wonders for what little I have for an interior.

[O25 dude]

This is a very cool concept. It actually reminded me somewhat of my old Olson 25 - same SA, same displacement, same DWL, very close in beam. The keel is a full foot deeper. I know they're very different boats, but the point is this boat would have a lot of potential beyond cruising. I have a J/30 now, but I imagine that if and when I get another boat I'll go back down in size (and complexity) rather than "move up." I could see myself in this boat. However, the showstopper for me would be the fixed keel. I know Bob doesn't care for his own purposes, but one of my biggest frustrations with the O25 was owning a lightweight, easily trailerable boat that was dependent upon travelifts (and the associated costs) every time it was hauled or launched. Result was that I just never travelled with it. If I ever get another boat like that (or this), I will absolutely be able to haul/launch myself.

Anyway, nice job Bob and best of luck with this.

[WHL]

For those not familiar with the Star runners, here's a pic that shows blocks to adjust either the runner or check, or both together through the lower block and to a cleat
 StarRunners.jpg   121.36K   50 downloads

[Veeger]

Sons, Sons, that was not a slam at you. In fact, that rendering reminds me of some other highly successful small boat desings I've seen. Just wasn't what I thought this boat was. Don't go away mad at all, it just didn't work for me, (one insignificant observer). Your work on the other hand.... is awesome and much appreciated.

[Bob Perry]

If Sons goes away the I goes away.

There Sons I'm playing the "guilt trip" card.

[WHL]

Methinks it approaches a Group Single Malt moment (WLYDO guys although a sensitive bunch, don't do group guy hugs, but a Group Single Malt? Too roight)

[Paul Romain Tober]

 CA_21_sail_plan.pdf   92.12K   237 downloads

 CA_21_sail_plan_B.pdf   92.04K   204 downloads

Rev B. please. No pop-top, no bubble, no piled-up crap for a coach roof.

Maestro, you're 6' 5"? You have to sit down to cook or you will just look stooped.

I got all hot about building this thing in plywood, but I agree it wouldn't be the same boat. Now strip-built or even better, cold-molded would be cool. Even better would be a bare hull of fiberglass delivered to my driveway.

romaine


.

[palindrome]

..........snip..........
The runners, upper and lower, both come back to the same control point, correct ? Manual operation ? No need for a winch ? Would something like a highfield lever give enough slackness or would that be overkill on this baby ?
.......snip..........

My Wet Wascally Wombat, you are dating yourself... "highfield levers".
I suggest runners/checks go to the corners of the transom so that you could tack with both runners on and not screw up the lee side of the main badly. That relieves time pressure and some stress in going upwind sailing solo/short handed.

WHL. attach the turning blocks on a purchase system to a strong bungy cord forward at deck level. Palindrome is set up that way, when you release the leeward runner it pulls forward, out and down and stays off of the sail. When you need the runner the bungy stretches.

Pal

[Jose Carumba]

Thanks Joe.
Do you have any suggestion for how to handle that tall hatch. I need the height but the look is a bit hard on the eyes.
In fact, maybe I don't need the height. I'll try a version with a more conventional hatch profile.

Wow alot can happen in here on the drive home from work!

Bob I like the 2nd version with the low hatch but we are looking at a 2D profile and that compresses the width of the main cabin and does not reflect any tumblehome which might make the pillbox look better. It's sort of like looking at a catamaran in profile; it might look clumsy in profile but once you get a 3D view it looks better, but you know what I mean. If we could have both versions modeled... Sons? SONS! HTFU and get back in here. We need your talents!

[Bob Perry]

Roms:
God I love ya.

At one point in time, on my tippie toes I was 6'3.
Truth be told, an honest 6'2.5". That's the best I can do.
My kids tower over me today. I am the "squirt".

But as you get older you get better at stooping .

If youcan strand then you can stad.
If you cannot stand then what?

Degrees of stoopage?

[palindrome]

Roms:
God I love ya.

At one point in time, on my tippie toes I was 6'3.
Truth be told, an honest 6'2.5". That's the best I can do.
My kids tower over me today. I am the "squirt".

But as you get older you get better at stooping .

If youcan strand then you can stad.
If you cannot stand then what?

Degrees of stoopage?

Bob
If you can't stand straight up, stooping will kill you out cruising. So how about a swing out seat into the galley somehow?
No stooping and a place to sit while being a gourmet.

Pal

[Jose Carumba]

After Bob builds his I would like to build a Q-boat version. Traditional cabin, gewgaws and scrollwork on the tillerhead, tanbark colored sails up to the diagonal batten, work in some baggywrinkle somewhere. Then you enter a race, wallow around a bit at the starting line a bit and then stomp on the accelerator. AMF would be the proper term to yell as you round the weather mark don't you think?

Well, that's my Walter Mitty dream anyway.

[sailman]

Sons, come on I liked that version. The chines give it a distinctive edge, the only thing I would have changed was flattening the underbody quarter sections.

Bob,

Pop top. I know you averse to it but why not build one that you would like if you had to have one?

Here is a curve to throw into the mix. A lift keel is right out because of down below space. So, how about internal ballast and twin angled bilge boards. The boards could retract into the area that is now the side structure for cabinets and counter. It would screw with the interior I know but it is another solution if you wanted a trailer option.

Just a crazy thought....I'll leave now.

Will Museler

[Soñadora]

'rub dirt in it'

ahaha

yeah, what's the first thing you do when you get cut?

lick it. ...yum

you have to understand, I'm 1/2 italian, 1/2 german, 1/2 portugease, and 3/4 welsh. I'm my own John Waters movie.

you know I can't keep my fingers out of this. I just wish your fricken' installation of eDrawings worked. Only recommendation I could give you would be to uninstall it then try re-installing it.

[puddin]

'rub dirt in it'

ahaha

yeah, what's the first thing you do when you get cut?

lick it. ...yum

you have to understand, I'm 1/2 italian, 1/2 german, 1/2 portugease, and 3/4 welsh. I'm my own John Waters movie.

you know I can't keep my fingers out of this. I just wish your fricken' installation of eDrawings worked. Only recommendation I could give you would be to uninstall it then try re-installing it.

Sons, I've had a hell of a time with downloading your images... could you drop off a pdf view or two every once in awhile? Thanks!

(HTFU Cupcake! )

[Bob Perry]

Sons:
No wonder we get along so well.
I'm a combination of Italian, Irish, German, Scottish, German, English, German.
We are bonding in our common cultural heritage!

I'm so glad you're back.
Now I can sleep.
In all honesty, it was bothering me greatly.
Rest well my friend.

Come to think of it,,,, that Welsh leg of the family was always known to be strange. I mean, that language.
I'd love to providfe the music for that movie. Sort of Mark Knophler LOCAL HERO type stuff. Hung will do the lead parts. Trust me, he can do it.

[Veeger]

Phew, I only stuck one foot in my mouth! (melts away)

[Paul Romain Tober]

I was just ogling the sail plan again and it looks to me like the tiller and the mainsheet conflict.

romaine


.

[tdwombat]

Sons...that's a relief....not to see this baby in 3d would have driven me to drink.......well....further into the bottle at least......

Wun......old fart I is I'm afraid......sad fact but true.......anyway I like highfield levers....find them kind of appealing......

Now you be careful or I'll have a great big sulk and not come back.......ah...problem with that idea is that in Sons case he actually is a bit useful instead of just cluttering up the place with mindless drivel....

woo hoo....back to kicking arse in the Vovo Race.....

[Jose Carumba]

 21.6_blister_mod.jpg   63.65K   51 downloads

Here's an idea for the high hatch blister. Delete the portlight and add a curved ledge running fore and aft. See faint red line on attached.

Joe

[tdwombat]

I know this is a bit late in the design cycle, but this is a neat "one off " of a Ranger type in Sydney.
It has a modern underbody and an older topsides.

http://www.woodenboa...ead.php?t=86934

Olaf,
Have you seen that thing out and about ? We've seen her a few times and she is slightly weird looking. Not bad , just weird, in a Bolgerish kind of fashion. Where's Woodford Bay ? I don't know it. Her previous owners used to sail her around up our way off Birchgrove etc....

[Greever]

I needed to do something about that "pillbox hat" hatch.

 CA_21_sail_plan_B.pdf   92.04K   204 downloads

That's much better...

[WHL]

I was just ogling the sail plan again and it looks to me like the tiller and the mainsheet conflict.
romaine

Bob and i talked about this earlier today. I didn't draw the sheeting system before I found out the "client's" preferences. The client agrees the following would work for him:

- Mainsheet traveller across the transom with car control lines leading forward (details later )
- Double purchase main with sheet led forward along boom and down to a double block with cleats on the bridge deck (illustration to follow)

This puts the mainsheet forward and can be trimmed by the hand not holding the tiller. It also allows the main to be trimmed from the companionway. It's a simple setup with lots of horsepower with the quick trim and high power capabilities.

[Paul Romain Tober]

I was just ogling the sail plan again and it looks to me like the tiller and the mainsheet conflict.
romaine

Bob and i talked about this earlier today. I didn't draw the sheeting system before I found out the "client's" preferences. The client agrees the following would work for him:

- Mainsheet traveller across the transom with car control lines leading forward (details later )
- Double purchase main with sheet led forward along boom and down to a double block with cleats on the bridge deck (illustration to follow)

This puts the mainsheet forward and can be trimmed by the hand not holding the tiller. It also allows the main to be trimmed from the companionway. It's a simple setup with lots of horsepower with the quick trim and high power capabilities.

So, the tiller would be underneath the traveller? Maybe I'm missing something. Help me here.

romaine

[Soñadora]

jeez you guys. I'm all verklempt now.

honestly, I'm really flattered. the portugease in me wants to slap you all then kiss you, but the welsh guy is too drunk.

also, no big deal really. I didn't mean to sound like a 5 year old back there. I've had a fairly consistent history of pissing people off (not so much the wankers here, moreso out in the real world) so I wasn't sure if I was being guilty of douchebaggery.

now that I'm not doing this stuff for a living, I intend to do whatever I can to stay on top of my SWorks game. I've always been impressed with the software's sheet metal capability so I thought I'd give it a whirl on this boat. To be clear, Bob had nothing to do with it. The result is something you'd find in a tree-hugger magazine article about a smelly guy living aboard, permanantly anchored in Eagle Harbor.

these days that doesn't sound so bad.


Romaine - we need to see that in 3D for it to make sense I think

[olaf hart]

I know this is a bit late in the design cycle, but this is a neat "one off " of a Ranger type in Sydney.
It has a modern underbody and an older topsides.

http://www.woodenboa...ead.php?t=86934

Olaf,
Have you seen that thing out and about ? We've seen her a few times and she is slightly weird looking. Not bad , just weird, in a Bolgerish kind of fashion. Where's Woodford Bay ? I don't know it. Her previous owners used to sail her around up our way off Birchgrove etc....

Havn't seen it the wood. so to speak.
Woodford Bay is halfway down the northern shore of the Lane Cove River, near the skiff club.

[tdwombat]

I know this is a bit late in the design cycle, but this is a neat "one off " of a Ranger type in Sydney.
It has a modern underbody and an older topsides.

http://www.woodenboa...ead.php?t=86934

Olaf,
Have you seen that thing out and about ? We've seen her a few times and she is slightly weird looking. Not bad , just weird, in a Bolgerish kind of fashion. Where's Woodford Bay ? I don't know it. Her previous owners used to sail her around up our way off Birchgrove etc....

Havn't seen it the wood. so to speak.
Woodford Bay is halfway down the northern shore of the Lane Cove River, near the skiff club.

Makes sense, I thought she lived up the LCR but that was previous owners.

[WHL]

So, the tiller would be underneath the traveller? Maybe I'm missing something. Help me here.
romaine

On one of the early drawings it looked like the tiller was beneath the transom height so I went with the traveller running across the full width. With a fat head main, I think full width will give more leach and head control than totally relying on the vang if you had a shorter track.

The traveller could also be on the bridge deck. Fortunately there are few limitation on this deck in terms of alternatives

[Bob Perry]

If you look carefully you will se that I cut a divot into the transom just big enough to give me tiller clearance. We can bridge that gap with the trav.
I would be inclined to take the mainsheet right of the trav rather than running it forward. Less friction.

Jose:
I saw your sketch. Isn't that I what I have alreeady? Check my revised hatch height version.

[Bob Perry]

 CA_21_interior.pdf   253.78K   165 downloads

A few more tweaks. I got an idea for a bow well for the anchor looking at that Aus boat.
It's truly coming together. I have my little companionway dodger w/ overhang worked out.

[WHL]

Bob,
You might be interested in this setup, typical on most on Stars which has a mainsail area slightly bigger than the your 21. It has the "two-speed" you were interested in. Trim one side and you have twice the purchase, trim them together and you have a very quick trim or dump. I put the Harken Carbo auto-ratchet block as per the pic below. This was my setup specifically for quick trim, low friction, and high power.
 Star_Main_sheet1.jpg   74.02K   31 downloads Single block on transom, a double block at boom-end, double block mid boom, and the double Carbo Ratchet at the cleat.
 Star_Main_sheet_double_jammers_and_ratchet_block.jpg   80.45K   22 downloads

EDIT: Just saw your latest on the interior. It is looking very functional. Good spot for the anchor too

[Greever]

 CA_21_interior.pdf   253.78K   165 downloads

A few more tweaks. I got an idea for a bow well for the anchor looking at that Aus boat.
It's truly coming together. I have my little companionway dodger w/ overhang worked out.

As an interior drawings junkie: I like it!