[bgulari]

Here comes the swearing everyone

doug knows more about foiling than me, i think most moth sailors would admit i am quick. and would jump at the opportunity for me to set up their boats but that is because i dont know what i am talking about.

I guess me setting up charlie's boat did squat, so my aero degree and all the messing around with AOA's and controls on the moth are worthless and i dont know what i am talking about

Julian recruiting me to help with the foiling 49er also means i dont know squat.

Frank and julian chasing me around to learn about foiling boats means i dont know squat.

[pjh]

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

Here comes the swearing everyone

doug knows more about foiling than me, i think most moth sailors would admit i am quick. and would jump at the opportunity for me to set up their boats but that is because i dont know what i am talking about.

I guess me setting up charlie's boat did squat, so my aero degree and all the messing around with AOA's and controls on the moth are worthless and i dont know what i am talking about

Julian recruiting me to help with the foiling 49er also means i dont know squat.

Frank and julian chasing me around to learn about foiling boats means i dont know squat.

Whatever. But this side snit doesn't lead to any increased understanding of L'Hydroptere.

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

[MR.CLEAN]

Well, you certainly haven't proven anything by winning the US Nats with all bullets, nor does it matter that you've spent a few thousand hours building, designing and redesigning everything from foils to control systems over the past two years. Nor that even Rohan admits that you are probably the fastest moth sailor in the world.

Nope, not impressed - now if you had a few patents...schwing!

[MR.CLEAN]

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

But this side snit doesn't lead to any increased understanding of L'Hydroptere.

In the absence of new information, what the fuck else do you think happens here?

[bgulari]

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 03:28 PM, said:

Here comes the swearing everyone

doug knows more about foiling than me, i think most moth sailors would admit i am quick. and would jump at the opportunity for me to set up their boats but that is because i dont know what i am talking about.

I guess me setting up charlie's boat did squat, so my aero degree and all the messing around with AOA's and controls on the moth are worthless and i dont know what i am talking about

Julian recruiting me to help with the foiling 49er also means i dont know squat.

Frank and julian chasing me around to learn about foiling boats means i dont know squat.

Whatever. But this side snit doesn't lead to any increased understanding of L'Hydroptere.

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

There is no active control besides the rudder attached to that steering wheel.


Surface piercing hydrofoils dont need active control esp in a tractor config which is what l'hydroptere is

All it does is turn the rudder left and right

[pjh]

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

There is no active control besides the rudder attached to that steering wheel.
Surface piercing hydrofoils dont need active control esp in a tractor config which is what l'hydroptere is
All it does is turn the rudder left and right

Then port/starboard pitch is controlled automatically by the tapering cross section of the lifting foils?

[bgulari]

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 03:46 PM, said:

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

There is no active control besides the rudder attached to that steering wheel.
Surface piercing hydrofoils dont need active control esp in a tractor config which is what l'hydroptere is
All it does is turn the rudder left and right

Then port/starboard pitch is controlled automatically by the tapering cross section of the lifting foils?

as more pressure is put on the leeward foil it generates more lift since more foil is pushed in the water. Counteracting that

[Doug Lord]

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 06:28 PM, said:

Here comes the swearing everyone

doug knows more about foiling than me, i think most moth sailors would admit i am quick. and would jump at the opportunity for me to set up their boats but that is because i dont know what i am talking about.

I guess me setting up charlie's boat did squat, so my aero degree and all the messing around with AOA's and controls on the moth are worthless and i dont know what i am talking about

Julian recruiting me to help with the foiling 49er also means i dont know squat.

Frank and julian chasing me around to learn about foiling boats means i dont know squat.

-------------------------------------
There is no doubt that you are an American hero-and that you know how to sail a Moth. But your convictions on how the foil layout works and your absurd insistance on the Moth layout being a "canard configuration" is wrong. You're not the first and won't be the last to make that mistake but you really should read more-about hydrofoil design. Your ego seems like it has lead you on a fantasy trip....
-Way back in 1987 James Grogono and Dr. Alan Alexander-thru exhaustive expeiments- had determined that the ideal foil loading was 80% on the main foils(surface piercing mainfoils in their case) and 20% on a rudder foil with a nominal area of 50% of the main foil.
-Dr. Sam Bradfields Rave is designed in 1995 with a mainfoil(fully submerged foils with wand alt. control) loading of 80% and a rudder foil loading of 20 % with a rudder foil area of 50% of the main foils.
- John Iletts Moth is designed with approx. 80% mainfoil loading with 20% nominally on the rudder foil in 1998.
----------------------
All these loadings change underway but as speed increases so does mainfoil loading. Not conjecture just fact. You can run your mouth with the "I am the Greatest" crap but if you bother to study this you will find I'm right.
-----------
pix from hydroptere site:

Attached File(s)

•  base_image2_483.jpg (25.62K)
  Number of downloads: 39

[bgulari]

Doug Lord, on Dec 23 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 06:28 PM, said:

Here comes the swearing everyone

doug knows more about foiling than me, i think most moth sailors would admit i am quick. and would jump at the opportunity for me to set up their boats but that is because i dont know what i am talking about.

I guess me setting up charlie's boat did squat, so my aero degree and all the messing around with AOA's and controls on the moth are worthless and i dont know what i am talking about

Julian recruiting me to help with the foiling 49er also means i dont know squat.

Frank and julian chasing me around to learn about foiling boats means i dont know squat.

-------------------------------------
There is no doubt that you are an American hero-and that you know how to sail a Moth. But your convictions on how the foil layout works and your absurd insistance on the Moth layout being a "canard configuration" is wrong. You're not the first and won't be the last to make that mistake but you really should read more-about hydrofoil design. Your ego seems like it has lead you on a fantasy trip....
-Way back in 1987 James Grogono and Dr. Alan Alexander-thru exhaustive expeiments- had determined that the ideal foil loading was 80% on the main foils(surface piercing mainfoils in their case) and 20% on a rudder foil with a nominal area of 50% of the main foil.
-Dr. Sam Bradfields Rave is designed in 1995 with a mainfoil(fully submerged foils with wand alt. control) loading of 80% and a rudder foil loading of 20 % with a rudder foil area of 50% of the main foils.
- John Iletts Moth is designed with approx. 80% mainfoil loading with 20% nominally on the rudder foil in 1998.
----------------------
All these loadings change underway but as speed increases so does mainfoil loading. Not conjecture just fact. You can run your mouth with the "I am the Greatest" crap but if you bother to study this you will find I'm right.
-----------
pix from hydroptere site:

If i ask nicely will you just go away?


Doug what you don't seem to get is the difference in between ideal loading and being able to press the boat hard because you are in control.

I wont explain anymore because i think the insults will just keep coming from you.

[Doug Lord]

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

Whatever. But this side snit doesn't lead to any increased understanding of L'Hydroptere.

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

-------------------------------
Hydroptere can change the lift of the foils by changing the angle of attack-but not underway. Thats one reason it is so critical for them to have an accurate assesment of the conditions before they make a run. Another is so that they can ballast the boat properly-this type of foil system does not generate its own righting moment and relies on water ballast in the windward ama and in the main hull.
The advantage of this type of system is that if it is configured properly for the conditions it will fly with absolute minimum wetted surface as compared to fully submerged foils.
If the boat is set up for one condition and it encounters another all of a sudden-well you know that story.

[Crabalocker]

Wasn't that exciting, Kids? Just like we told you, the teaser ad from last week let you all in on the little ugly secrets of our comedy serial starring Doug Lord in the role of the Old Man Buffoon. Opposite Lord in the Co-Starring role of sailing Wunderkind, we have Bora Gulari, as the totally misunderstood Moth foiler, destined to save the world... if only OMB Lord would just let go of his boat and his message when he tries to launch.

Lord's grasp is spindly, hyperbole driven and invective supported, while Bora's heady talent lurks in his innate ability and his technical understanding of what makes a foiler work in the real world. This technical knowledge is no magical gift either kids, Bora has gone to school to study in the craft and he brings this depth to the game, apparently unbeknownst to OMB Lord.

Will OMB Lord ever give Bora his due and silently slip into the wasteland of his own evil thoughts, or will Bora finally have to forcefully snap the hype driven chains of OMB Lord's mutant clutches?

Tune in next week, kids, when OMB Lord accidentally bombs himself into oblivion with poorly formed technical thinking that he cooked-up in his basment... as Bora glides silently away on the wings of victory, rescuing the planet from the darkness that is Lord!

 bora_gulari_1.jpg (9.24K)
Number of downloads: 31

 OMB_Lord.jpg (30.93K)
Number of downloads: 6

[BalticBandit]

bgulari, on Dec 24 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

If i ask nicely will you just go away?


Doug what you don't seem to get is the difference in between ideal loading and being able to press the boat hard because you are in control.

I wont explain anymore because i think the insults will just keep coming from you.

Bora
Doug is probably wrong on all of it except the definition of a canard. the current Moth's out there are not canards. The def of a canard does not require it to be the control surface, just the horizontal stabilizer ahead of the primary lifting surface. Note that PRIMARY does not necessarily mean the surface generating most of the lift in ALL conditions.

Not that I want to encourage him but fighting to the death on something where he actually has a point is de classe


Now that said Damn that's a cool boat!

[PaulK]

Doug Lord, on Dec 23 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

pjh, on Dec 23 2008, 06:33 PM, said:

Whatever. But this side snit doesn't lead to any increased understanding of L'Hydroptere.

Let's talk about L'Hydroptere's steering wheel: does it control the rudder, or trim tabs on the main lifting foils? Or, is it linked to both with some coordination?

-------------------------------
Hydroptere can change the lift of the foils by changing the angle of attack-but not underway. Thats one reason it is so critical for them to have an accurate assesment of the conditions before they make a run. Another is so that they can ballast the boat properly-this type of foil system does not generate its own righting moment and relies on water ballast in the windward ama and in the main hull.
The advantage of this type of system is that if it is configured properly for the conditions it will fly with absolute minimum wetted surface as compared to fully submerged foils.
If the boat is set up for one condition and it encounters another all of a sudden-well you know that story.

According to what Alain Thébault says in the 21DEC video, they got hit by a puff and though he put the bow up a bit to try to luff out of it, they weren't able to ease fast enough ("choquer" is the word he uses) to accommodate the puff. He adds that he expects they'll get a new rig ("grément") and try again in the spring. He obviously has an idea - even still wet from the run- of how long they're going to need to digest the data and come back. The video shows a good view of the foils sticking up into the air, too. If you check out the history/development vids, they show Airbus laminating some of the pieces. Pretty cool.

[bgulari]

Here is the response when I asked nicely without saying anything derogatory to doug.


don't know why I waste my time with you-your ego maniacal "iknow everything" attitude is hardly worth fooling with. But if you want to understand how the foils are loaded in 20 knots on a reach don't forget to calculate rig induced pitching moment.
you will learn:
1) the rudder foil is pulling down not lifting "70% of the boats weight"! In fact if you move way aft like you said- measured from the design CG- your contribution only deals with about 1/3rd the pitching moment. Where does the rest come from? And what do you think has happened to the main foil loading? Think about it.


I love the part where he implies i am not telling the truth about moving back in the boat, he still can not explain why I am doing it and what the advantage is. Anyone else want to take a stab?

Doug So when I have seen people loose there rear horizontals at speed and go really high before the front foil stall and they come back down. That was a figment of my imagination. You just said that the rear foil was pulling down, even if it was relative to the front foil when the aft foil fell off the boat would go bow down by your def.

Explain why my angle of incidence is larger on the rudder horizontal then the front.(i should say that I measure this realative to the hull so it is hard to tell exactly) but when i put my rudder in the oh shit we are going really fast downwind position the angle with my 3 ft long jig is much higher than the angle on the horizontal



Baltic I would like to disagree, I see a canard config is when the control surface is in front of the static foil. The whole reason I was able to convince julian and frank this was the case was because i could show both foils were pushing up and the front was giving all the control

[Doug Lord]

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

Baltic I would like to disagree, everything I see says canard is when the control surface is in front of the static foil.

=========================
Not only are you nuts you're a real asshole publishing that w/o my permission.

[Amati]

bhyde, on Dec 23 2008, 11:56 PM, said:

Amati, on Dec 23 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

You are, of course, correct about the spelling. After 3 hours of shovelling the roof, I was just too lazy, too tired, and in too much pain to do what I needed to do to check the spelling. So I'm a sore idiot. And I was putting off doing the front deck. No post done to delay pain ever goes unpunished.

You may may take my gaffe as a spelling canard, if it gives you any pleasure....

B)

No, no, I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about Doug’s use of the term canard when talking about foiling boats, not your misspelling (I really didn’t notice). He may as well call the section of hull between the mast and rudder an ‘empanage.’ Doug’s the idiot, not you.

Shoveling the roof? I haven’t had to do that since…wait a minute, I’ve never had to do that. My recommendations - drink heavily.

Thanks for your kind response, which may be more than I deserve. To tell you the truth, we really had come to the conclusion that the light snowfalls of the last few years were going to be the norm what with global warming and all, so my snow car is an r32, which has all wheel drive, but the front spoiler ground clearance of a Formula Atlantic, so 8" of snow means clearing the roof and boat of the stuff, and having to walk to the marina (and to the store (2 miles)) to do it. So feeling put upon doesn't excuse me, but might explain what I am laughingly calling my state of mind. But I might point out that we do belong to the flat roof society. Which in a place that precipitates as much as it does here might qualify me for at least 'not so smart' status! :blink: The heavy drinking starts now with a nice Bottle of Sonoma Cutrer.

Enough self pity.

So anybody have any thoughts on the droopy leading edges on the top leading edges of the main foils and what they might do at speed when forced down into a wave? Can the aoa be that much?

Paul
la nin~a! la nin~a!

[bgulari]

Doug Lord, on Dec 23 2008, 06:15 PM, said:

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

Baltic I would like to disagree, everything I see says canard is when the control surface is in front of the static foil.

=========================
Not only are you nuts you're a real asshole publishing that w/o my permission.

Doug you can publish my comment that you responded to with your I am an angry person and I will yell at you till you succumb tactic.

Dont worry I wont ever brow beat people for giving you a hard time again.


I can understand why people disagree with the canard. I guess you would have to watch how we sail downwind to understand why I am saying this. We are riding the back foil

[inhiding]

Can't you dipshits go back to Dinghy Anarchy?

There are already plenty of bozos over here and we simply don't need you!

[BalticBandit]

bgulari, on Dec 24 2008, 03:10 AM, said:

Baltic I would like to disagree, I see a canard config is when the control surface is in front of the static foil. The whole reason I was able to convince julian and frank this was the case was because i could show both foils were pushing up and the front was giving all the control

for most Canard that's the case, but you don't have to have the control surface on the canard for it to be a canard. Afterall, flying wings don't use a separate control surface for pitch control. One of the jets I linked in in my earlier post has a canard horizontal stab that has no control surface on it.

The reason I think (and I'm not an aero engineer so take it for what its worth) that the canard is often a control surface (other than imitating the Wright Bros) is that by making it a control surface, you auto correct for stall inducing control inputs: The canard and the input both stall before the main wing does, nose comes down and flow re-establishes incrementally.

But that's not a requirement for it to be a canard configuration (see this whitepaper)


You could put elevons on the main wing and have a trailing horizontal stab that is fixed. Its just that you would need greater control throws since the control surfaces would be closer to the CoG/CoL, and greater control throws mean greater drag and greater power requirements....

[bgulari]

inhiding, on Dec 23 2008, 06:59 PM, said:

Can't you dipshits go back to Dinghy Anarchy?

There are already plenty of bozos over here and we simply don't need you!

I was thinking the same thing
:blink:

[rightroyalrage]

Doug Lord, on Dec 24 2008, 10:24 AM, said:

bgulari, on Dec 23 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

I guess you know more, you win doug. You must not have seen all the times that i sit at the back of the boat and well over %70 of the total weight of the boat is being supported by the rear hydrofoil.


You are so messed up. The thing that actually controls pitch is the Angle of Incidence on the front foil, the rudder is a fine tune.

----------------------
Absolute Bullshit! You think you know what your're talking about but you're flat wrong.

Popcorn anyone?

[Evo]

ladeees and gentel meeen....your final bout for tonight...for the champeeyonshiiiip of the woooooorld. In the red corner we have Dooouggiie...pizza boy extraordinaire.....in the blue corner we have Bora...actual foiler

LETS GET READY TO RUUUUMMMMBAAAAAALLLLL!!

i like mine with a little salt. cheers

[No Rumours]

Chris Ostlind, on Dec 22 2008, 02:44 PM, said:

OK, pj, let's phrase it this way, then... I'd like to see this true boat, l'Hydroptere, sail on both reaching sides of the craft at the optimal angle for max speed as they need, in order to get the most from the boat. I'd like to see this happen right after they cook a good run in one direction. No going back to the dock, no extended period to fiddle, etc. Just rip one off, turn the bad boy around on an adjacent course for optimal wind angle and let 'er rip a second time to illustrate the capability of being a "true" boat.
CO

I wish you'd reconsider your stance, Chris, wrt "tue" boats and the world speed sailing record. Every craft--*every* craft, with the single exception of Pascal Maks's first sailboard record, that has held the outright speed sailing record--since the WSSRC first began keeping such statistics in 1972, has been won by a vessel which was asymmetrical. Every "cat," every proa, every windsurfer, every kitesurfer, EVERY CRAFT, for some 36 years now, has been an asym, one-way boat.

Sure it's possible to build a "both ways" boat that's fast, Problem is, setting that same boat up for one-way optimized will make it faster. Your insistence that "real" boats should be raced both ways is a commendable statement, However, it flies in the face of nearly 4 decades of reality, thousands of speed sailors' dedicated work and dozens of outright speed records. Were Hydroptere to do it on both tacks--and set verifiable records on each tack, without making asymmetric changes between runs, would really and truly be a first.

Cheers,

Dave

[sailquik]

Oxygen Mask, on Dec 23 2008, 08:23 AM, said:

sailquik, on Dec 21 2008, 07:30 PM, said:

If they had even a lowly consumer GPS on board with the ability to save the SOG (Doppler derived speed) that would give credability to their words. If so, let's see it!

[quote name='Oxygen Mask'
I would imagine that with the millions of dollars spent, the annual dollars spent for many years (this boat has been in develpment a long time) and the engineering and sailing talent associated with the project, that they have managed to include some sort of accurate and reliable way to monitor ... speed... Perhaps something more sophisticated than a Garmin Etrex...

Well, actually it seems they have not got an accurate way to monitor instantaneous speed (or more correctly, short term peak speed).
And why would they? They are not actually very interested in this. Their focus is on speed over 500m and the Trimble GPS has the ability to measure that to a VERY high degree of accuracy using the start point and end point with a horizontal resolution of about 5cm.

The thing the Trimble GPS can't do is give an accurate reading of peak speed. Pure arithmatic tells us it can be up to 2 knots out for a 1/10th second trackpoint. The Trimble GPS is designed and set up specifically to measure position, not speed.

In talking to the Maquarie Innovation crew I was surprised to learn that even though they have a speed readout from the Trimble during their runs they never have time to even glance at it. Their attention is completely on controlling the boat. Further, they pointed out they were not really interested in actual peak speeds anyhow, they are only focused on the 500m average.

If you are interested in accurate peak speeds you should use a GPS device that outputs and saves the SOG Doppler shift derived speed. Unfortunately, not many GPS units do that (Garmin Etrex does not save it to file although it does save it to screen) and some have a lot more precision in this area than others (Locosys GT-31 to 0.02 knots).

But hey, even if they did get to within 2 knots of 55 knots peak speed, or more fantastically 61 knots, that is bloody fast in anyone's book!

[sailquik]

PaulK, on Dec 23 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

Got an answer back from Communications at Hydroptère:
Bonjour,

Merci pour votre message.
Afin de pouvoir faire homologuer un record auprès du WSSRC, nous devons utiliser du matériel qui a été homologué par ce même organisme.
Ainsi, nous utilisons un GPS Trimble (matériel très précis, utilisé habituellement par les géomètres) avec un dispositif embarqué et une base à terre, placée à proximité de l'endroit où navigue l'Hydroptère.
Les 100 km/h dont parle Alain Thébault dans la vidéo ont été effectués en pointe et non stabilisés sur 500 mètres.
J'espère que ces éléments vont pouvoir vous aider à répondre aux internautes de Sailing Anarchy.

J'en profite pour vous souhaiter d'excellentes fêtes de fin d'année.

Marlène

Roughly translated, it says:
Hello,
Thank you for your message.
In order to qualify for a record with the WSSRC, we have to use equipment that has been approved by them. We therefore use a Trimble GPS (very precise instruments, normally used by surveyors) with one unit on board and one based on land, near where Hydroptère sails. The 100 km/h that Alain Thébault was talking about in the video was done as a peak speed, and not stabilized over 500 meters. I hope that this information will help you to reply to the internautes of Sailing Anarchy.
I take advantage of this message to wish you happy holidays.
Marlène.

The way I see it, since there's a lag for the GPS to register the speed - it's averaging the distance traveled over a certain number of seconds - , and if it shows they got more than 100 km/hr (Alain Thébault, in the video says "...plus de cent kilometres/heures..." ) they must have been doing it for a while in order to get the average to be that high. Maybe not 500 meters, but still pretty nice!

Very interesting reply Paul. Thanks for that.
I take it from the reply that they are only using one Trimble GPS and thay they are using it for real time speed monitoring as well.
The Trimble GPS measures points of location at 10 hz (Ten times a second). Each point has a horizontal resolution of within 5cm. This does not make it a very precise instrument for measuring instantaneous speed as the resolution is only about 2 knots trackpoint to trackpoint.
On the other hand, this is very high precision for measuring the speed over 500m when you take (as they do) the start point and end point at that 5cm resolution (0.00972knots)! Because this is the name of the game, this is why the Trimble unit is used.

As I said in my previous post though even if they did get to within 2 knots of 55 knots peak speed, or more fantastically 61 knots, that is bloody fast in anyone's book!

55 Knots I can believe based on previous performances.
61? That is a whole quantum step further up. I would love to see some credible evidence of that!