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#201 Steve Clark

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 10:35 PM

There have been more than a few efforts at the Chinese junk wing sail. I haven't seen one that really inspires. Making a tension structure that wraps around the mast the shape of the wing is actually pretty tough to do and takes a metric shitload of tension.
The leading edges of the Patient Lady flaps were made this way. We had a Mylar film and then a sailcloth cover that we tensioned between the control arms. It was a war to get right and didn't stay right for long. We were always having to mess with it. Not that it is impossible, just very tricky to do well enough to gain the benefits over a well set sail on an over rotated mast.
I still think that if you can free stand the masts and allow them to rotate 360 degrees, the reefing and windage problems go away.
SHC

#202 richie

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 12:43 PM

That not exactly the best example here,but probably some evolution of the junk rig(NOT)...well,worth a mention,since it was developed a long time ago-The Gallant Rig...looks like a simple and safe solution for a cruiser.The Omer Wing is a more sophisticated version of that.
I'm personally interested in this kind of solution for a freestanding rig,that one can de-power at any time.
Example(not a good one)here:
http://www.svaphrodi...anesthesia.com/

#203 Carl M

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 09:40 PM

There have been more than a few efforts at the Chinese junk wing sail. I haven't seen one that really inspires. Making a tension structure that wraps around the mast the shape of the wing is actually pretty tough to do and takes a metric shitload of tension.
The leading edges of the Patient Lady flaps were made this way. We had a Mylar film and then a sailcloth cover that we tensioned between the control arms. It was a war to get right and didn't stay right for long. We were always having to mess with it. Not that it is impossible, just very tricky to do well enough to gain the benefits over a well set sail on an over rotated mast.
I still think that if you can free stand the masts and allow them to rotate 360 degrees, the reefing and windage problems go away.
SHC


Thanks again for all the info on C Class cats , for those of us interested in the control system for a wing that do not have the ability to open that type of file could you direct us to links or post something or some pictures of the system and wing details .

Like many I would really enjoy building and racing one eventually .

#204 Wing sail

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:55 AM

C-Class Wing

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#205 Wing sail

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 02:58 AM

c-class

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#206 Poida

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 06:01 AM

So practical!!!!!!
It's no secret that wing masts are more efficient as a propulsor, but impractical for 99% of applications.
How about a concept using collapsable wing frames and soft sail material so a wing sail can compress down flat when not in use? The frames could slide up and down a square mast to control twist. A simple haliard system would raise and lower the frames until the skins are pulled taught. Obviously a multi-element wing would be more difficult, but could be solved with two/three masts joined at the top and bottom on a frame. A tricky design challenge, but if you are all going to bang on about how great wings are, at least make it practical.

#207 Laurent

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 06:29 PM

So practical!!!!!!
It's no secret that wing masts are more efficient as a propulsor, but impractical for 99% of applications.
How about a concept using collapsable wing frames and soft sail material so a wing sail can compress down flat when not in use? The frames could slide up and down a square mast to control twist. A simple haliard system would raise and lower the frames until the skins are pulled taught. Obviously a multi-element wing would be more difficult, but could be solved with two/three masts joined at the top and bottom on a frame. A tricky design challenge, but if you are all going to bang on about how great wings are, at least make it practical.



I think that Poida is raising a good point here.
From all the posts, we can see that there are mainly 2 types of applications that people are talking about:
- the large size multihulls, mostly cruisers
- the small size multihulls, like beachcats (or similar), mostly pure performance boats

I do not include the extremely narrow applications, which are very exciting and interesting but really concern only a handful of sailors (AC BMWOracle, speed record machines, and even C Class cat, beautiful machines, but how many of us have sailed on a C Class cat?... I wish I had the opportunity!)


In the first case, the fact that you cannot reef/lower the wing will be (for most people) a show-stopper. The fact that it is not a valid reason does not matter!! (an unstayed feathered wing may have less drag than a round mast with its standard rigging in a hurricane, you will still have to convince a very technology-conservative population...)

In the second case, users expect to be able to tow their boat behing their car/pickup truck, rig it on the beach without external help, and go sailing in less than one hour. I have seen pictures of people raising wings with well thought through systems, but how do you transport the damn thing down the highway, without having a special enclosed looooong trailer?...

As a few people have said it before, when the catamaran (or beach boat in general) is more expensive than the truck pulling it, that's where I draw the line...

As long as those issues will not be solved, there will be no wide use of wings, I think.

#208 Carl M

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 08:19 PM

So practical!!!!!!
It's no secret that wing masts are more efficient as a propulsor, but impractical for 99% of applications.
How about a concept using collapsable wing frames and soft sail material so a wing sail can compress down flat when not in use? The frames could slide up and down a square mast to control twist. A simple haliard system would raise and lower the frames until the skins are pulled taught. Obviously a multi-element wing would be more difficult, but could be solved with two/three masts joined at the top and bottom on a frame. A tricky design challenge, but if you are all going to bang on about how great wings are, at least make it practical.



I think that Poida is raising a good point here.
From all the posts, we can see that there are mainly 2 types of applications that people are talking about:
- the large size multihulls, mostly cruisers
- the small size multihulls, like beachcats (or similar), mostly pure performance boats

I do not include the extremely narrow applications, which are very exciting and interesting but really concern only a handful of sailors (AC BMWOracle, speed record machines, and even C Class cat, beautiful machines, but how many of us have sailed on a C Class cat?... I wish I had the opportunity!)


In the first case, the fact that you cannot reef/lower the wing will be (for most people) a show-stopper. The fact that it is not a valid reason does not matter!! (an unstayed feathered wing may have less drag than a round mast with its standard rigging in a hurricane, you will still have to convince a very technology-conservative population...)

In the second case, users expect to be able to tow their boat behing their car/pickup truck, rig it on the beach without external help, and go sailing in less than one hour. I have seen pictures of people raising wings with well thought through systems, but how do you transport the damn thing down the highway, without having a special enclosed looooong trailer?...

As a few people have said it before, when the catamaran (or beach boat in general) is more expensive than the truck pulling it, that's where I draw the line...

As long as those issues will not be solved, there will be no wide use of wings, I think.



What type of configuration using more conventional sail material might be possible ?

Piados sq mast idea sounds good but sounds very heavy -multiple masts and controls for each etc .

The question might be -- how much more effecient is a symetrical wing shape --vs an asymetrical battened jib soft sail .

Is it the wing shape itself --or is it the wing configuation and slot effects of 3 parts interacting that allow it to be used at higher angles that generate more power per sail area ? .

Could someone build a 3 part flat battened soft sail in the same 3 slot type wing configuration --and would it be able to be sailed at higher angles of attack downwind without stalling as a wing does ?

The configuration might be something like a central wing mast with a T top ,--a forward rotator controlling the wing mast angle --a seperate Jib in front --and main off a seperate stay behind the wing mast .

The base would require a boom full length and a seperate jib boom to move independantly of it to allow the front sail adjustment , the wing mast adjusted by front facing rotator {like the old Nacra 6/0s used ie} and main would set off a stay directly behind the wing mast on its main boom with more conventional blocks and controls .

The aspect ratio of these sails on C Class cats are what --10 to 1 or more --very tall and not much depth .

Wonder if anyone has tried this ?

It may be a dumb question as I really don't know how much more effective a wing shape is over a battened jib soft sail . I was just suggesting a solution for a soft sail 3 part type configuration that was similar to a 3 part wing configuration .

#209 ColinG

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 10:01 PM

I reckon that the collapsible wing idea is the holy grail if it can be made light and result in an efficient wing.
Better get come engineers on it now!
London to a brick the first to come up with it will patent it and we will all be paying royalties. :angry:

#210 samc99us

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 12:23 AM

I highly doubt it. If this technology existed, it would be in use in many airplanes across the globe, the majority of which have been designed by teams of aerospace/mechanical/structural engineers.

Strength to weight is the problem. Sure, you can make it collapsible, but that negates all the benefits of the wing (lower drag, higher lift for the same or close to the same weight as the conventional rig). We need a material that is stiff like mylar (preferably stiffer) yet can be collapsed...otherwise the tension forces required are too high and the build too difficult to make it happen. Perhaps a material built properly with carbon fiber nano-tubes can make this happen..until then, its all speculation and dreams.

Also, I was taking a look at the photos of the C-Class wings. While approaching elliptical in shape, I still feel more work could be done, namely with the mast taper at the top. Also, I'm sure a super lightweight carbon winglet at the top would improve overall efficiency, although I'm sure you all have done the analysis and perhaps determined that the looses at the top of the wing are beneficial to sailing ability and the added structure required to support the increased pressure loads negate any benefit to going with the winglet.

Finally, if any of you serious AMATEUR wing builders need wind tunnel time, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do. I cannot guarantee anything, and wind tunnel time for companies designing wings is going to cost you money, period.

#211 ColinG

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 02:32 AM

I highly doubt it. If this technology existed, it would be in use in many airplanes across the globe, the majority of which have been designed by teams of aerospace/mechanical/structural engineers.


Which is why I said the "holy grail" B)

#212 Carl M

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 10:41 PM

Ran across this interesting wing

It uses rings to slide up a circular mast and the wing stucture battens are attached to the rings .



Omer wing sail mast inside view

http://www.solarnavi.../wing_sails.htm

#213 Wing sail

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 12:21 AM


America’s Cup Innovation May Lift All Boats

January 27, 2010
by Aaron Kuriloff

The America’s Cup boats that will race in February—products of a technological showdown between billionaire sailors—may bring wings, ultralight hulls, and computers to the next generation of sailboats.

The two-year legal battle between billionaires Larry Ellison of Oracle (ORCL) and Ernesto Bertarelli, who sold his family’s Swiss biotech business to Merck (MRK) for $13.3 billion in 2007, has produced two racing yachts that are a decade ahead of any boat built previously, even as the legal tussle has dogged and delayed the 158-year-old regatta, to be held off the coast of Spain. The innovations, which came about as they forced race organizers to abandon longstanding rules, may one day benefit sailors on weekend jaunts.

Designers for both Ellison’s BMW-Oracle Racing team and Bertarelli’s Alinghi syndicate say building and learning to sail these boats, each at least 90 feet long and among the fastest yachts ever built, has meant gains in everything from data collection to sail technology.

“We’re like kids in the candy shop,” says Dirk Kramers, chief engineer for the Cup-defending Alinghi catamaran. “During the last Cup, it was all about trying to squeeze another 1/100th of a knot out of the boat. Now we’re really in discovery mode, learning huge lessons every day. We get to work on boats that are just so much more exciting than anything that’s ever been done.”


A Decade of Advances in Two Years
Pete Melvin, a U.S. Olympic sailor and world champion, co-founded Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, which has designed multihulls, including Steve Fossett’s record-setting PlayStation, and has consulted for BMW-Oracle. Multihulls are much faster than monohull boats, because they are lighter and have less drag.

“It’s been a hugely concentrated development, with all the best people in the industry, plus outside experts in every field, all focused on pushing the edge of the envelope,” he says. “It normally would have taken eight or 10 years to do what’s been done in just two short years.”

The America’s Cup has long featured yachting’s cutting edge. The 1983 victor, Australia II, used wings on its keel to reduce drag and increase performance. Such wings, so secret at the time that it took two undercover frogmen to spot them, are now common on sailboats worldwide.

Read more at:

http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/dec2009/id20091218_236990.htm



#214 Wing sail

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Posted 24 March 2010 - 12:25 AM


The Wing is Coming… no AC Crew Needed!

February 9, 2010




Morrelli & Melvin’s client, Harbor Wing Technologies, Inc., is responding to regional, national and international commercial and military interests by accelerating the construction of a full-scaled version of its autonomous unmanned surface vessel (AUSV).

Harbor Wing Technologies world class technical team, including Morrelli & Melvin, made history when its 1/3-scale prototype AUSV equipped with a Wingsail™ hard airfoil became the first sailing vessel to perform every function of a manned sailboat without any human intervention during rigorous sea trials in June of 2007. The same multihull design was recognized as the most innovative and timely product in the Communications, Disaster Preparedness and Maritime categories at the Security Network’s 6th Annual Security Summit. The low cost Harbor Wing solution is gaining earned attention from Military Commanders who have an ever-pressing need for ocean surveillance information.

In another recent development, the Department of State determined that the company’s Wingsail™ hard airfoil with manual guidance system and components are not subject to the licensing jurisdiction of the Department of State. Harbor Wing Technologies will be able to export its products and technology to all countries except for those on a select Department of State exclusion list. Harbor Wing’s environmentally friendly system is ready for production and management has identified immediate market opportunities for the exportable manual WingSail version.

Harbor Wing Technologies’ robotically controlled, wind driven vessel is outfitted with electronic sensors and is capable of operating independently and scanning large areas of ocean for other surface or submarine vessels. It can transmit what it sees and hears via radio or satellite communication links to ship or shore based control stations. Outfitted with surface radar, cameras, sonar, and other electronic sensors, the ASUV is a low cost, persistent long-range and mission duration Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance “ISR” platform.

By utilizing the wind as well as state of the art electrical storage and energy scavenging technologies the AUSV will be able to patrol or loiter about fixed locations for weeks, even months, in some environments. The stable platform can patrol protected waters, acting as policing agencies’ eyes and ears to detect, deter, and document illegal activity. The data collected can be sent in real time to a control station operator.

“We initially introduced our AUSV to the US Coast Guard and NOAA as a cost effective and green means of patrolling the Hawaii Marine National Monument. As we moved forward we recognized its suitability for open sea applications such as open water exploration and mapping, oil platform security and surveillance, and ocean and environmental survey and tracking. Harbor Wing’s AUSV also represents a cost effective means of curtailing and combating the increasing incidents of illegal fishing activity and piracy in Somalia and other parts of the world. Our robots provide a solution in which information can be collected and justice can be served without the risk of losing lives,” said Mark Ott, Co-founder, Executive Vice President and Project Manger of Harbor Wing Technologies, Inc.

Said Pete Melvin, “By integrating these sophisticated platform, wing sail, computer and communications designs the team has developed a vessel that will catapult Morrelli & Melvin’s hull designs into research and military markets that we never anticipated when we started working on the protype only a couple of years ago.”

Filed in Recreational Multihull ·Tags: Autonomous Unmanned Surface Vehicle, Harbor Wing Technologies, Morrelli and Melvin, Pete Melvin Leave a Comment »
San Francisco’s First Wind-powered Ferry

January 30, 2010

Posted Image




Wind+Wing Technologies is the company behind the nation’s first winged and wind-assisted ferry vessel for public use in the San Francisco Bay Area. The ferry will utilize the wind, an inherent natural resource in the Bay Area, in conjunction with an innovative wing and clean Diesel motors to power and maneuver the vessel. The fuel saving design could save up to 40 percent of the fuel costs compared to the ferries currently operating in the Bay Area.

For more than a year, Wind+Wing Technologies has been in communication with the three major ferry operators in the Bay Area to formally present its plans to develop a demonstration vessel and eventually a public passenger ferry.The operators, the Golden Gate Bridge Highway and Transportation District, the Water Emergency Transportation Authority (WETA), and Blue & Gold Fleet, have written letters of interest for the project, and members have expressed interest in the development of more fuel efficient, cost effective and eco-friendly vessels. Wind+Wing Technologies is working in conjunction with Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering for the design of the boat, and with Harbor Wing Technologies for the design and engineering of the wing.

Check it out at:

http://www.windwingtech.com/

copyright © 2010 Wind+Wing Technologies. all rights reserved. designed by erica neubauer. www.ericasneubauer.com



#215 Wing sail

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 12:39 PM


the wally wing
Posted ImageWe love Photoshop too but there is apparently something to this new Wally project. From our resident translator:

Basically it’s a carbon mast that goes through the boat (no stays) and there are two sails that wrap around the mast therefore creating a softsail that has volume like a wingsail…it has a cunningham and it has two outhaul sheets (horizontal on the boom, that’s an outhaul right?) giving you the possibility of shaping the sail’s profile in shape and volume.

They estimate that the boat will be 10 to 12 % faster and that with this sail they will point 10 degrees higher to the wind…there is no mast compression due to the lack of stay and backstay, so they need to deal only with the lateral forces to keep the rig up at deck level (and of course on reaching/running). Should you read French...

03/30/10

Omer wing has been talked about in this blog, hope to see it built

#216 us772

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:30 AM

I thought I would share some more info gleaned from sailing the solid wing and some changes I've made from the last outing. I attended the Americas Cup of Landsailing last March at Ivanpah dry lake near Vegas. We had 4 ST49 wingboats entered in Nalsa class 5. Some of the racing was close particularly with my nephew Will and Laurie MacKinze.Laurie nearly beat me in race # 2. They swapped 2nd and 3rd places through out the 6 races. Will eventually edged Laurie out for 2nd place. Next year we expect another 2 to 4 more ST49's to make it an official solid wing box rule wing boat class for dirt boating. During the winter while iceboating I lost my side shroud on my ST 49 prototype and the wing crashed down on the ice and broke. I modified it and repaired it for the Americas Cup.I tapered the top of the wing and made it taller to the class max ht of 16'. The vertical center of effort mathematically stayed in the same place but the boat got a bit more tippy with the added ht.It seemed to get hooked up quicker than the 3 other shorter un tapered wings and may be a tad better in lower wind speeds. In the higher winds it didn't seem to be any advantage over the lower aspect ratio wings. We reconfirmed that adding an end plate on the top of the wing improves its performance. In the first half of the regatta Will didn't have an endplate. About mid regatta we installed it and he started doing better in the results. We had to sit out a few races because of high winds. Later we discussed amending out rules to extend the length and width of the runner and springer planks to make the boat safer to sail in higher winds. While I was at the regatta I learned that 4 more ST 49's are near completion for iceboating next season on the East coast. They have been corresponding with iceboaters in Sweden about building ST 49's. It appears this is the start of the first ever solid wing only class.For free plans and box rule info. link http://sports.groups...roup/wingboats/ You have to be a member to access the files area where those items are located. The last boat I built took 183 man hours to build and cost about $1800.00 complete.
John Eisenlohr



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#217 Wing sail

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 01:35 AM

From HOME PAGE Sailing Anarchy

c note
Posted Image
The rest of the hard-sailed cat crowd is mighty quiet right now, but our friends fredo and blunted aren't hiding anything, getting lots of time in their new defending C-Class cat 'Orion' - seen here blasting around in front of Toronto's RCYC. We're hoping to start hearing news soon from some of the other guys - the Class expects to see the biggest group of competitors ever entered in this summer's Little America's Cup in Newport. On-The-Water Anarchy will be bringing you live coverage of the event, and if you want to keep tabs on the news and pics leading up to it, just watch the thread.

04/30/10

#218 Wing sail

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 01:44 AM

from SA main page

another one down Last week, Paul Larson told y'all about Team Invictus's little mishap with their C-Class catamaran, and this week, current Little America's Cup champions Fredo and Blunted follow suit. Be sure to check out the 2010 LAC thread for your fill of pics, vids, and constant updates as we lead up to this exciting event in the most on-the-edge development class there is. And Sailing Anarchy is the only place to find it.

Posted ImageWell in the spirit of sharing our ups and downs with all of you as the pommies so recently have, we have a new tale to tell.

Saturday AM we woke up to another beautiful day here in Toronto, temperatures were expected to climb to 30 degrees for another early taste of summer, normally we would expect this to burn off the breeze and make for a lazy day but we were happy to find a nice 10-12 knot breeze coming from the East. A pleasant surprise. So instead of our normal leisurely pace of lunch than sailing we got right on the water before the breeze crapped out.

We rigged up Alpha, our trusty old girl and headed off the dock, breeze was now ranging from 5-14 knots with puffs and streaks all about the harbour. No worries, we set off at about 19 knots heading for the channel. We cleared the Eastern gap heading for the lake, picked up a nice puff and put in a gybe at the lee shore, hooking up with a nice little 12-14 knot puff. Fredo stepped to the back of the boat on the wire and I settled in on the tramp just inside him and sheeted a bit more aggressively, we were flying a hull no problem, easily accelerating to 20.5 knots and bearing away quickly to ride the edge of the puff down to the lake. Meanwhile Robbie and my 2 nephews had jetted out to the lake in the RIB to look for some more breeze a kilometer or two ahead.

BANG!

Nothing on Alpha goes bang quietly, It is always a big bang, but I knew this was bad instantly, the hull dropped to the water, in that little instant of freefall I felt, and then saw Fred flying right over my head towards the wing, and I saw both Fredo and the wing flying forwards and down towards the water, @$^%@^@%!!! Wing Down!

A quick scramble to make sure Fred was OK and not impaled on any large bits of carbon and then straight to work. No time to sort out what happened, first things first, keep the wing from impaling itself or going under. We gently started sliding the wing up onto the tramp which inevitably leads to that crunching sound we hate to hear, but we have to keep going. The most important thing is to keep the main spar in one piece, so gently we ease her on to the boat and hold position for a few moments to catch our breath and do an assessment of what’s next.

So we have a quick chat about what happened aside from the obvious. It turns out Alpha is the perfect C-class boat, it does what it’s supposed to (Win the LAC) and then fails not too long after because it’s built right to the edge of what it needs to do. We had pulled out the starboard chain plate from its bulkhead, and the whole rig simply fell forward over the leeward bow of the boat.

The RIB showed up soon afterwards, and we set about getting the boat ready to tow in. After 20 minutes of futzing on the water and gently cajoling the wing about, we got her straddling the platform, starting the long tow in. The trailing edge of our flap was certainly tortured during the whole thing, and like the Brits just explained, we had to cut more than a couple of holes in the wing to drain water out of it.

The ride back to dock went smoothly. We stopped 500 meters short of the dock, cleaned up and coiled all the line and standing rigging and finalized our strategy for the dock. So when we finally got to shore, with the help of three more people we smoothly got the wing off the yacht and onto the dock with no more damage, and got the wing and platform into the tent in a few short minutes.

Out came the beers and then the knives as Rob sliced off the whole of the skin, allowing a full inspection. And we determined that we'd gotten off easy - for dropping a rig at 20 knots, that is. We had a number of broken ribs to sort out, some damage to the boom box, the delta system was all but snapped in half and we had a puncture in our #1 element's leading edge, but that was pretty much it.

So I have to say 'good job 'to the team for keeping a clear head and getting the whole show home mostly in one piece.

The most amazing thing in all of this is of course Fred’s attitude. 9 out of 10 people I know might have lost it, cussing to high heaven after dropping a wing - that costs more than a Farr 40 - in the piss. But Fred is the coolest guy on the entire team. His attitude is "It’s just part of racing boats like this, and so goes life." No doubt happy that it was not a write-off...

So thanks Fredo, yet again, for another great but short day of sailing.

06/01/10

#219 Wing sail

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 01:22 AM

From SA Main Page

and then there were six
Little America's Cup holders Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke had a shocker on the water this weekend as they trained for next month's LAC in Newport when a squall came through and capsized their brand new Defender, Canaan. Meanwhile, Steve Clark has renamed his Challenger, which hit the water last week looking good. Here's the crash story from Magnus, and plenty more news and photos in the thread.

Posted ImageThis weekend we are playing host to the French team, Benjamin and Antoine came over to see how we handle the boats and to get to know PL in the shop back in the city.

Yesterday AM we set up Orion and Canann for a sail and some two boat testing. Fredo and I on Canaad and Robbie and Dan or Orion. We knew there were some squalls in the forecast but nothing too heavy from the sounds of it so off we went.

On leaving the harbour there was some nasty chop right at the channel entrance with the breeze seeming to be about 13 or so knots. Hogan in the tender said there was less breeze but not a big deal either way, so we proceed offshore to some flatter water. Had a good session going up and down a few times a couple of miles at a time. Things were going pretty well. We had a few big black clouds come down over the course with some more pressure, so we sailed around those.

Eventually we decided to head in and beat a bigger cell to the city. We thought we could get to the harbour where it wasn't too choppy and the French guys could have a go inside on the boats. Not a good idea to start them in this chop.

Well we sailed a few miles North then gybed East to the channel along the island. The pace was picking up the whole time, we were taking it as slow as we could and still doing 16-20's. Orion was about a mile behind us and we were happy to see them taking it slow. As we approached the spit we paced the Lake Ontario 300 crowd who was sliding downhill just off the city. Once we got to the spit we had to execute another gybe as we were out of water. So it was flat and getting breezy by this point but no big worries, we put the helm over, popped the wing and blasted off on port straight towards the channel. Now things were getting choppy again and crowded with 4KSB's and all manner of dinghies. We were almost making the channel so we decided to slide low to avoid another two gybes in a busy channel. The pace is picking up and the waves steeper.

Finally as we got to the mouth of the Eastern Gap we were following a Bene 50. They were heading in as well on Port, the same as us. no problem, we'd slide to leeward of them once inside the channel. We're now doing 20, with the wing flat against the shrouds and nowhere to ease out, two hulls down blasting through the back of the chop.

I look up to see the Bene spin out in a puff to their left. No problem, we're going to his right, another hundred yards and we'll be in the channel, flatter water and we can head up and have room to breathe. Another puff, I'm leaning back to hold the edge of the tramp and Fred is right off the transom. Then the Bene continues his spin out and crash tacks and ends up heading back almost towards us. No worries, Fred slides a little deeper, we're almost by the lee now and moments from getting past him and into safety. But alas, the behemoth has his jib still pegged to windward and is now bearing away uncontrollably hunting us in a crowded channel. We're now doing 22 and more pressure hits. The Bene lays down further as we try sliding even further to the lee, there's no hope of gybing out of this right were we are with our bows in the back of a wave every 5 seconds and the wing completely barn doored.

One last blast,,,,and,,,,we're done. both bows go down the mine in a big hard puff. My eyes are just forward as I desperately am leaning back trying for the back beam. Then I lose it, sliding forward on the tramp feet first. On the way down I know this means the unthinkable in a flash, the wing is gonna be gone, just try not to eat carbon or get killed. Green water back to the beam with the wing accelerating forward the platform at 45 degrees into the water. I manage to grab the mast step on the way by the wing so I won’t get mowed down by the boat. My feet hit the water so hard my shoe gets blown off my foot. I am lifting my head up to get one last breath when I see Fredo go airborne, again, over my head, way way way over my head, I see him long enough that I can watch him cannonball into the water 40 feet away from me at the tip of the wing. I thought well at least he's clear.

The wing hits the water about the same time I do so I cannot hear anything. Just as fast the boat pops up out of the water and flips over on one side. !@$)($%*)!!!!!. Then it gets weird. I am hanging in my harness from the wing just above the water. I had been strapped in acting as a running backstay and I'm still plugged in. I desperately try to get unhooked but I cannot lift myself off the hook. The boat starts downhill at 5-6 knots. With the tramp up there and now 30 knot gusts coming through we're picking up steam. I decide I better stay with the boat as the channel is Chaos now. The tender goes and retrieves Fredo while I try to figure something out and fast. With the tramp heading downhill and the wing up, it's not too bad, the wing is mostly in tact, if we can get this under control, we might save it. Then the next hit comes. One good waves lifts the tip of the wing and it starts to fly, very slowly, almost floating at first and then a gust picks the whole thing up and flings the boat upright.

I think, "Fantastic, I might save this" As the boat comes up it spins around and heads almost head to wind. I am still plugged into the trap so it picks me up to and I land on the tramp. I throw myself as far forward as possible off the front beam to get the bows down, then I'll go for the tiller.

Oh Fuck, one more puff and the whole boat blows over backwards. Enough of the top of the wing was damaged that the drag just killed it. That's when I head the nastiest carbon crunching I have heard since they pulled the BOR mast out of the water in SD with a forklift. The trailing edge hitting the water at speed was the end of it. The boat flips on its side again. This time I am trapped under the hull with my legs wrapped around god knows what. A quick near drowning and I get out of it. I duck under the hull to the dagger board side and find Antoine clinging to the bow in the water.

He’s got the tow line with him from the tender and works at getting it onto the bow near the forestay. He finally gets that on and we get the tender to go into the breeze slowly as we’re only a hundred yards from the lee shore. We have a quick discussion about options and take a breath.

Meanwhile Fred is on the radio to Orion, I see them cruising slowly down the South side of the outer harbour with a partially cacked wing, the clew is broken on the flap. They are trying to sort out where to gybe in some flat water to make for the inner harbour.

Back on board we have the tender go a little faster up wind. By now we’re watching large sections of wing float off to leeward through the channel to the beach. As we move upwill the remains of the wing start to clear the water. There no way we can cut if off easily at this point and I am just thinking we have to save the platform, the wing is toast but Canaan is OK so far. A few more feet uphill and I manage to stand up on the hull and grab the bottom of the tramp, a few good tugs and we pull the boat upright.

Antoine climbed on board as the boat even with a portion of a wing started to accelerate. He helped me up and then grabbed the tiller. In a few moments we were towing through the channel and to the club. The breeze was still on and the boat still was doing 12 knots or more without the tow line taught.

We dragged the whole show back to the dock and pulled her out. By now we had sent another tender out to retrieve Orion. Despite their best efforts, Orion had a broken tiller a broken flap and serious control issues. As soon as they got back to the dock we dropped Orion’s wing first as there was still serious squalls blowing through. Subsequently we talked to someone who had sailed past us in the channel right before we killed it they had reported a 41 knot gust less than a KM from the death zone. Later in the day some nice folks at St James Town YC called us to say they had retrieved some of our wing. We popped out to find out upper #3 in only 2 pieces, which was encouraging.

So a big thanks to Antoine for literally jumping right in there, Ben and Hogan for tender support, the guys at SJYC for getting #3 for us, Irwin and the boys for on shore help and as always. most of all, Fredo for making it all possible.

Now the big push is on to get the new Canaan wing out of the shop in the next week and functional. Then we have to fix the 06 wing which will now go on Alpha instead of Orion.
Unfortunately this now means 6 boats for the event. There is a slim chance that Robbie could stitch that wing back together in time for the event, but it’s a long shot. So we’ll see how that all goes. We all knew this was the risk of sailing these boats and in retrospect it would have been prudent to head in after we saw the first squall. But C’est la vie. Full credit to Dan and Robbie for bringing home Orion upright and mostly in one piece. For a few kilometers of the trip home I doubt the leeward hull would have even been visible. It was the worst possible conditions for that boat and they did a great job all day.

Good job boys.

-MC

07/19/10

#220 Wing sail

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 01:25 AM

Go Here for the best on C Class wings



Fred is in SO much trouble



#221 Wing sail

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:57 PM

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winged bug


Posted Image
The one boat that could benefit from the efficiency of a hard sail even more than the ultra-slippery C-Class hulls is the foiling moth, and a year of rumors have finally been confirmed with Adam May's new winged Moth, trialed over the weekend in old Blighty. If it's robust enough to handle the occasional capsize - and inevitability on a Moth - it would have to be hard to beat. And if a winged moth dominates as many think it will, one would imagine it'll get banned after winning the Worlds on Lake Macquarie in a few months. More info on the thread, as well as Adam's blog.

08/03/10

#222 Wing sail

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 10:58 PM

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form follows function
Posted Image

For lovers of engineering perfection and sailing efficiency, it may be hard to avoid the conclusion that this package - Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke's recently launched C-Class Defender Canaan with the just-installed new hard sail - is anything but pure beauty. The wing may be the highest-aspect ever on a water-borne craft, and the color is...perfect.

With every new bit of news, the upcoming Little America's Cup is getting more and more exciting, and our anticipation is growing every day. Don't forget that On-The-Water Anarchy will be there for every minute of the LAC, and you'll be able to watch it all live on your computer or iPhone. Look for more news this week, along with the launch of the official C-Class site.

07/29/10

#223 Wing sail

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:55 AM

.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P{padding:0px;}.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}

http://www.sautercarbonoffsetdesign.com/home.html



Super Nova – world’s first carbon neutral megayacht
By Darren Quick
21:30 August 15, 2010

Posted Image 3 Pictures
Posted Image The Super Nova 60 features adjustable camber fully rotational wingsails
Image Gallery (3 images) Looking to claim the environmental high ground at the next megayacht owners potluck get together? Sauter Carbon Offset Design has unveiled what it calls “the world’s first carbon neutral megayacht,” and it could be just what you’re looking for. Harnessing energy from sustainable sources such as photovoltaic (PV) cells, power sailing kinetic energy regeneration and wingsails, the Super Nova 60 is capable of generating enough surplus energy to allow it to cruise carbon neutral for 7,000 nautical miles a year... and it can feed energy back into the grid while docked. Now you can enjoy cruising around the Mediterranean in luxury with an environmentally clear conscience.
Referring to the currently available green technology present in Super Nova, Richard Sauter Head of design at Sauter Carbon Offset Design commented, “Super Nova’s state of the art Green Technology demonstrates that Carbon Neutral Superyachts are not just a futuristic dream, but a present day fact of life destined to become a ubiquitous reality.”
Like the somewhat smaller DSe Hybrid, the Super Nova employs a range of technologies to achieve its green credentials. These include multiple Mercedes Benz BlueTec diesel electric drives providing 1,600kW of power that are supported by adjustable camber fully rotational wingsails, power sailing and wave motion energy regeneration, a 650 square meter solar cell array and a plug-in lithium ion storage system/uninterruptible power supply (UPS) rated at 1,000 Kwh.

Posted Image
These systems allow the Super Nova to achieve a 75 to 100 percent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions when cruising at a speed of 18 knots. Additionally, cruising at an average speed of 8 knots and with the renewable power sources charging the 1,000Kwh lithium ion battery bank, the Super Nova boasts a virtually unlimited zero carbon cruising range.
Further contributing to the Super Nova’s efficiency are azimuth counter rotating contracted loaded tip (CLT) high torque propeller systems, wave piercing Catamaran hi-speed displacement hulls, aerodynamic PV deck spoilers and radar tower canopy, energy efficient equipment with waste heat recovery, and computerized energy management, maintenance and guidance systems.
And if you’re worried performance could take a hit with all this green technology, think again. The company says the Super Nova’s wave piercing hulls feature “self leveling sea keeping hydro & aerodynamic advances that will easily make her the fastest power sailing megayacht in the world.”

Posted Image
The Super Nova 60 measures 60m (197ft) long with a beam of 18m and a draft of 1m (3.3ft). It can accommodate 14 guests and a crew of 16. It weighs less than 125tons and has a sail area of over 1,200sq.m. The yacht boasts a cruising speed of 18kts and a maximum speed of over 22kts. When docked and plugged into shore power, the vessel is capable of feeding over 400Mwh’s of electricity back into the grid.
We've contacted Sauter Carbon Offset Design to ask if and when the Super Nova 60 will be built and just how many piggy banks you'll need to break open to get your hands on one. We'll let you know as soon as we hear back. But odds are, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.


#224 Wing sail

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:20 AM

from SA main Page


7

Posted Image

Number of C-Class catamarans competing at the Little America's Cup in just a week, now that SA'ers 'lawnboy' and 'cunningham' have got the wing for Orion repaired after her near-destruction a couple of weeks ago. And it will all be live, right here on Sailing Anarchy. See Steve Clark's new evolution of the wing right here - another evolution of Cogito, or another revolution like Cogito that will raise the bar once again, and bring the Little AC back to the USA?

Check out the newly launched Little AC site right here, and join the Facebook page here.

08/16/10

#225 Wing sail

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 12:48 PM

SA main page




little shop of wings


Posted Image
The C cats get ready to do battle at the Little America's Cup. Sailing Anarchy will be there to cover it starting tomorrow. In the meantime Check out the newly launched Little AC site right here, and join the Facebook page here. This shot from Christophe Launay, who wil be at the regatta all week..

08/21/10



#226 Wing sail

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 12:47 AM

from SA main page

clean report

c state

The 'Wing Tent' at the foot of the hill leading up to Harbour Court is the closest thing to a shrine in all of sailing. It's a sparkling, glittering monument to the creativity of spectacular minds driven by passion for pure sailing.



Posted Image

The sight itself is enough to make any high-performance sailor swoon a little; six 40' wing sails on their luffs, leaving just enough space between them to walk or to kneel and repair torn shrink-wrap that makes up most of their exterior. The constant shuffle here of some of sailing's most influential Cup personnel is nothing if not a pilgramage to what might be in all their futures, and a show of respect for people who work so hard for such an unconventional but laudable goal. Juan K has put in an appearance as has Farr Yacht Design's Russell Bowler. A pair of ETNZ loyal staffers were scoping things out pretty carefully, and BMW/Oracle wing builder Dimitri Despierres is roaming around with our old pal Joseph Ozanne and Francis Hubert, designers of the USA 17 wing - and they're just ahead of Pete Melvin and his designers, who roll into town shortly.

There seems to be no competitive brashness here; no posturing, no sneaking around, and no pressure. Fred and Magnus showed up with their new Defender Canaan sporting a couple of innovations, and within a day they'd been copied by half the fleet. Such is progress, and such is the C-Class - a collection of geniuses and speed freaks that are all giddy at the chance to compete in the coming Little America's Cup. And giddy they are; from the rich guys to the carbon jockeys, the AC superstars to the patriarchs of the fleet -- all are smiling in delight like little kids on their first trip to Disneyland.

But they're not completely idle; The French Team used the off days to improve the Patient Lady VI wing, adding twist controls for the upper third of the wing that get the old lady closer to the newer wings in ability - potentially, anyway. To change the upper third of the wing to allow more twist, it would take a couple days, so they planned on no racing today to complete the system. It was a risky move, but it may pay off in the end.

There’s also been a slight change in the SIs today. Fleet racing is extended through Thursday, with the top two teams selecting their wing and boat for the best-of-nine championship match race by Friday at 0830. The format isn’t set for 3-6 yet though, and maybe the most forceful proponent for transparency in the Class, Magnus 'blunted' Clarke on Canaan asked the Anarchists what they think. Should 3-6 continue fleet racing in a box around the championship race, continue match racing in a round robin or do a pure speed run? Add your own thoughts here, and while you're at it, check out a damned good piece from gadget ubersite Gizmodo.

So while it's disappointing to see them lose two full days to a gale here in the Bay, we are not completely upset about it, as we didn't arrive from our Detroit-Newport trek until 10 AM on Monday, learning of the first day's postponement with a sigh of relief. But another day waiting, and as the grey-maned lion Steve Clark said, "I am pacing the cage."

The On the Water team took advantage of the downtime to do interviews, including the current defenders sailing Canaan, Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke. We followed it up with Gordon Kaiser, the wing trimmer and aerospace engineer on Invictus. PRO of the event, Kevin Geogh gave us the low down on the unique position a PRO is in an event like this here. We were lucky enough to catch up with the Gandalf of the C-Class, Dave Hubbard, who’s been a leader of this action for over 50 years: Part 1 and Part 2. The live coverage will be the best yet with live audio on the boats, commentary, incredible pics, tracking and constant forum updates, as well as replayable tracking from IonEarth.

We're ready to rock and roll, and we hope you tune in. If ever there's been a sailboat race worth watching, this is it. Thanks to Christophe Launay for the photo, and special thanks to Hunt and HBI Boats for their help in putting together our coverage team.

08/25/10

#227 Wing sail

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 02:03 AM

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CANed Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke on the ever sexy Canaan C-Class catamaran caned the competition today with a clean sweep of all three races of the second, much lighter day of the Little AC. Downwind they were just ridiculous, with Fred showing his skiff trapping skills and Magnus bumping the hull up at every chance. Upwind Glenn Ashby and Jimmie Spithill on Alpha kept trying to get inside, but the Canaan crew put the bow down and went for boatspeed every time, not worried about being passed.

Posted Image

The biggest meaning of today’s wins definitely isn’t the points Canaan gained, but the message sent. There was even a little precurser to the Match Canaan followed Alpha on starboard down the line to the pin and tacked for leeward boat advantage for the port start. Canaan will face Alpha in the best-of-nine series for the I4C tomorrow and Saturday, and Alpha has to come up with something to match Canaan’s performance. Or do they? It will be a match race after all, and the tactics will change significantly. Ashby and Spithill will likely attack during the prestart at every opportunity to get a penalty on Fred and Magnus. What is the defense? Canaan knows they are faster at this point, so they may try what has worked for them in the past: Run away prestart and make all of their gains during the race. With the points stuck back on zero, tell us your opinion and pick your horse here.

The complete bummer today is the French team sailing Patient Lady VI who ate it going downwind on the way to the course, obtaining some damage when their windward daggerboard went through the wing. Over the past week they’ve spent long hours every night tweaking almost every aspect of the dated wing to make it more competitive. Today, they achieved their highest speed yet right before the flip.

Posted Image

Invictus is sitting in a solid third place. Orion missed all the races yesterday due to breakage, and Invictus beat them two out of three today. Since there are five boats left with two racing in the I4C, it’s likely we will see a three boat fleet race for the next two days. Orion did pitch it on a screaming reach on the way to NYYC from the racecourse and sustained some damage to their wing, but they’ll be sailing tomorrow. Word is they were drag racing Matt Knowles' Moth when they bit it.

On the Water Anarchy live coverage starts tomorrow just before 1100, when we’ll give you the lowdown on all the racing on Justin.TV. You can check out the full guide to the recorded races, interviews, and panel discussions here, and if you go to littleAC.com, you can watch the video while checking out the tracker. One thing is for certain, this championship will be intense.

One final thing: Thanks to all of you who've been watching, encouraging, and supporting us and our coverage of this awesome spectacle. Special thanks to the C-Class, Canaan, Fred and Magnus, HBI Boats and their new HBI 30, Layline, Ashby Sails, Red Gear Racing, and the US A-Class Catamaran Association, and a ton of appreciation to the sailors and team members down here giving us such great access (Ashby helped commentate during his own race today over our onboard microphone), and to the New York Yacht Club for getting ahead of the curve with their strong support for a class that represents both prestigious history and the most cutting edge of the sport. Meredith Block photos, and check out some great ones from Christophe Launay here.




it is what it is


Racing of the Little AC started today in a 15-18 knot breeze in Newport, when Alpha sailed by Glenn Ashby and James Spithill sent the first salvo by port tacking the fleet in the first race. Canaan followed to the right, with Orion, Aethon and Invictus choosing the left. Then things got interesting. Just a few minutes after the start the C-Class lost one of its most valuable assets Posted Imagewhen Steve Clark’s Aethon capsized going upwind. During the flip, Clark slid off the windward hull, 14 feet in the air and backsplashed into the precious Cogito wing which dominated the competition for over 10 years before the 2007 I4C, turning it into carbon scraps. Watch it in our intro video here.

The action wasn’t over though, as Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke aboard Canaan fought Alpha all three laps of the race. After four lead changes in race 1, Canaan had the lead into the last gybe, but they weren’t able to power up fast enough and Alpha barely nipped them at the finish. Invictus came across in third quite far back after being late for the start.

Orion and Patient Lady VI all had their own problems to deal with. During the first race Orion lost their rig when their starboard chainplate pulled out. The very experienced Canadian composite contingent will work around the clock to exact composite repairs on the chainplate and a few broken ribs in the wing from the fall. I know this: it’s nothing these guys can’t handle.

Patient Lady VI’s L shaped rudders are both broken, but they’ll be fixed by tomorrow, I assure you.

Alpha led wire-to-wire in the second race, with Glenn Ashby displaying his world champion A-Cat style big breeze downwind sailing skills. With less volume in the bow, Canaan backed off a little and went for the least choppy part of the course downwind, the goal being to finish the race and save the boat for the Championship round. After breaking one rudder, Patient Lady VI was able to finish ahead of Invictus, who became hung up on the start pin and later broke their port daggerboard while on a reach when they overstood the top mark in race two. They had to sail all of race three without it. Invictus doesn’t have any spares, so they might borrow a daggerboard from the Canadians. It won’t fit their current trunk so there’s another team that won’t get much sleep tonight.

Posted ImageThe breeze lightened up and the chop died down for the third and final race of the day. Alpha lined up on top of Canaan and they both had a good port start. Alpha lost their mainsheet for just a couple seconds during the drag race to the layline, which gave Eaton and Clark aboard Canaan a window of opportunity. They went all the way to the starboard layline and Alpha never saw them again. Fred and Magnus aboard Canaan were getting settled in and their wing was really working for them downwind.

Every team I talked to today who had issues said the same thing, which might just be the slogan for the class: “It is what it is.” They are used to making repairs on their boats and totally destroying equipment. Oddly enough the only cat that isn’t getting worked on tonight is Clark’s Aethon because, as he put it during a great wing panel discussion under the tent, “I did a better job breaking it.” Watch the full discussion here.

Tomorrow the breeze should be less than today, so we can see more close matchups with all but one boat racing. We will be live before the first start gun at 1100 for all the action. Hit the forum to catch up on all of the action, and look for more of Mer’s absolutely incredible shots from today in the thread or at LittleAC.com.

08/26/10



#228 Wing sail

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:29 AM

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defenCe


John Casey gives us his wrap up report from the Little AC. Note that you can find the guide to every minute of video coverage, highlight reels, and interviews right here, and check back tomorrow for the The Rev Petey's final HD highlight reel and the final Clean report from this awesome event.

Posted ImageOn Saturday, Canaan (Fred Eaton/Magnus Clarke) and Alpha (Glenn Ashby/James Spithil) faced off to end the battle they have raged all week. Canaan got the best of Alpha, winning both match races today in a light northerly breeze on Narragansett Bay under clear blue skies, ending the series at 3-1. Even though Alpha won every start of the series, Canaan used their wing sailing skills and incredible platform, designed by Steve Killing Yacht Design, to get out of every hole Alpha put them in. At the awards ceremony, Eaton pointed out that his team hadn't won a single start in two straight Little America's Cup championships, but they followed their game plan of getting no prestart penalties, relying on running away and using their seemingly impossible acceleration to get out of bad spots. Fred and Magnus were really impressed with how they could not speed away from Glenn and James in the prestart, so they had to make all the right decisions to stay clear.

Even with one boat running constantly for its life, the prestarts were full of dial-ups, close crosses, boats going from backwards to forwards in seconds, and great cat-and-mouse episodes. Eaton later pointed out "wait until two real match racers lock up in these boats!" In two days of commentating for OTWA at the Detroit Cup, I saw maybe a half dozen passes in one-design Ultimate 20s, yet two of the four match races for the Little AC title saw four lead changes in four legs, and this was in two designs with huge variations in performance. But at the end, the vastly superior power and downwind speed of the Canaan platform in the light to moderate air of the match racing finals sealed the deal, and sent the Little AC title back to the Royal Canadian Yacht Club, and they are likely to defend it in Weymouth in two or three years' time. When things in wing world will be much, much different.

Posted ImageCould you imagine this type of racing in 70+ foot catamarans? Well, there were a ton of designers and engineers present at the I4C who are indeed imagining it. With Morelli and Melvin taking the lead, there is quite a bit to be done writing the rule. Other designers, including VPLP (designers of many of the fastest multihulls in the world) are poised to draw an incredible piece of sailing art to win back the America’s Cup. With the next AC competing on cats, will we finally see some trickle down effect with cats being more accepted at yacht clubs? Well, if the fact that this Little AC was, according to the NYYC Commodore, the first ever multihull regatta for the storied club is any indication, the times they are a changin'.

Here's a note that John Williams wrote on the Catsailor forums the other day after speaking to Pete Melvin. "He said there were lots of AC people in attendance...it is much more than a rumour that the next AC will be on multihulls; it is a fact. "They" are working out the details of the new catamaran box rule. I was very happy to hear that the design race is still an important part of the equation - Pete said we might see, for example, some bizarre and innovative crossbeam arrangements. The take-away for me was that the boats will not look the same at all, which I feel is more in the tradition of Cap'n Nat's goal of building the fastest boat. I'd hoped to get more time with Pete to ask other questions while he seemed jet-lagged and willing, but it was time to go sailing! He spent the day with Matt Struble, Jay and Pease Glaser, Craig Yandow and Bill Westland in an A-cat tuning session.

Funniest part of the discussion - Pete was very amused that so many nay-sayers were in attendance at the LAC. He said they'd woken up to the reality of the future of the AC and realized they wouldn't have jobs anymore unless they caught the train already leaving the station. He was chuckling at the assertion by some "johnny-come-lately" firms that say, "Oh, yes... we can design a multihull!"

Once again, a huge thanks to all the OTWA supporters for this great event. You still have a day or two to hit up Layline with a 10% discount on anything on their site if you use the coupon code "LittleAC" at checkout. Other sponsors include HBI Boats, Gunboat, Pure Yachting (makers of super light and stiff carbon RIBs), Hall Spars (Ben Hall was present at the I4C and has plenty of experience building wings), Fred Eaton and Magnus Clarke and the International C-Class Association, U.S. A-Class Catamaran Association, Ashby Sails, Red Gear Racing, Ion Earth who supplied real time tracking, and Sailfly, who supplied us Petey’s favorite vest.

And as a bonus to this report, here's defending champion wing trimmer Magnus Clarke showing us just which string you pull to turn on the afterburners, and how you trim a wing.



#229 Wing sail

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 02:59 AM

from SA main page

ac breaking

shocker

Posted ImageThe folks at GGYC must have been smiling when they read our prognostications this morning about the next Cup - they love blowing even our own well-informed rumors out of the water, and this morning Press Conference did exactly that.

Not with respect to the boat - in fact, Pete Melvin started the meeting out confirming that, as the SA'ers confirmed months ago, the boat for the next AC would be a 72 foot wing sailed cat. And not with respect to the 'baby cats', the already-under-construction winged AC45s that will make up the competition boats for the 2011 AC circuit to ease teams into the new concept, and which will later be used for a 'Junior AC' circuit that will create a sort of minor leagues for future AC sailors.

No - the real surprise was the 2013 date for AC34 announced by GGYC Commodore Marcus Young with a smirk. Can San Francisco really make this happen in less than three years, or does the accelerated time table mean that a pre-cooked venue like Valencia is necessary? We doubt it: If you're going to go to something that represents the ultimate in extreme sailing, you do it somewhere where extremeness is guaranteed.

Quote of the day comes from Vincenzo (paraphrased):

"When people write about the America's Cup, they say that we are driving the Formula One of sailing. But I feel uncomfortable with this, because driving an IACC boat is like driving a truck. Today I am very happy, because I prefer to drive a Ferrari."

Will the short lead time and boat choice mean that BMW/Oracle has a distinct advantage for the next Cup? Of course it does, but so be it. The game has been changed, the bar has been raised, and the future of the sport's top event has turned a corner that it probably should have two decades ago. Now it's time for sailing to catch up.

Bravo, Russell. Bravo, Vincenzo.

09/13/10

#230 Wing sail

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 12:33 AM

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black death Posted ImageThe second of the hardsailed Moths has hit the water, splashed Tuesday morning in Toronto by 2009 Moth World Champ Bora Gulari, mostly designed by Magnus Clarke along with Steve Killing, and built by a team of obsessive folks up at Object 2 Skiffworks in Toronto with the help of George Peet and Anthony Kotoun in just 8 days. If the wing looks familiar, it should - it actually uses some of the tooling from another Object 2 project - 2010 Little America's Cup champion Canaan. In face the core design/build team for Bora's wing is actually the same as for the Little AC champion - Magnus, Rob Patterson, and Rossi Milev. And you certainly remember Canaan helm Fred Eaton, whose enthusiasm for Bora's project helped make it all happen.

We're not going to get too deep into this right now, because Bora took the time to do an SA Innerview with Clean that will answer most of your questions - just click on 'Play' below and listen to 35 minutes with Bora if you want to know how much it costs (lots of sweat equity), how fast it goes (ummm...), what the development plan is, how many wings will be at the Australia Worlds, when the winged moth will face off against a winged catamaran, and much, much more. Big thanks to Bora for taking the time to talk to us at midnight after a long day sorting out flying bugs. You can download the MP3 here, and stay on top of the latest winged moth developments right here. This great shot is from Thierry Martinez/Sea&Co



#231 Wing sail

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 01:36 AM

From SA main Page


open c
Vestas Sailrocket boss Paul Larsen checks in from Weston, UK with the latest from his Invictus C-Class program.

Posted ImageLast weekend, we finally got to line our C-class INVICTUS up against perhaps the fastest beach cats in the world at the Weston Catamaran Open. For us it was a chance to do some good racing, show the boat to an enthusiastic audience and get a measure of her performance against the state of the art of the soft sailed competition. We had a mixed bag of results for one reason or another but overall we came away pretty happy with what had been achieved. Weston did a great job and the event was a pleasure to attend.

We had a few little jobs to attend to before the racing began, such as fitting one of our old 2004 dagger boards to make up for the one we lost in Newport RI during the last LAC. We rigged up the boat on Friday with a very bleak forecast suggesting winds of over 30 knots during the day. It didn't look too bad out on Southampton water but there was a sense that there was wind out 'there' somewhere. We held back a bit not really wanting to test our luck... but still got as close to sailing as we could before making the final decision. We watched a small but quality fleet go out to race which included Will Sunnucks on his Texel winning Marstrom M20, which has been souped up with a wider than normal beam and a bigger rig. Also out there were some F-18's, Tornado Sports and even Phil Cotton's Seacart 30 which had been invited to play. We watched them do the first race and decided that despite the forecast we hadn't seen anything that we shouldn't be able to handle... so we should have some confidence in a boat that had recently proven herself to be very reliable. We pulled on the drysuits and went out to play.

The start was just in front of the clubhouse and we joined the fleet on their second lap around a short windward-leeward course. Instantly Invictus shot to windward at a pretty high angle and began putting distance on all the boats. We took a little while to get comfortable as there were some fruity gusts coming through. We eased into our top-mark rounding's pulling out all the camber to turn off the power. We made gains by not having to hoist or drop kites at the marks and had plenty of grunt to do decent angles down-wind... so much so that we often underestimated our down-wind angles and came in to the leeward gates very hot. In these instances we would just pull the camber off again and try and make it a bit more manageable. Some of the gusts sure were punchy and we had one big 'stuff' where we thanked our stars for those two big, funky, retro bows. Invictus shook it all off and were around the leeward mark and into the next beat. The angles she does up wind really is rude compared to a soft sail... and it just seems to get better with the breeze.

She just keeps climbing out. Gordon and I got more confident as the cobwebs rubbed off with every mark rounding. We began to undo the lap we were down on the fleet. Unfortunately Will had an issue and was back on the shore so we didn't get to line up against the M20. We had one more good hard stuff down-wind and decided enough was enough. We were happy with the boat and the performance she gave, but the wind did feel like it was building beyond 'C' class territory so we took her home. In the end it was a good decision to go sailing... and a good decision to put her away. We had a whole weekend ahead of us and we didn't want to blow it. Apparently we had posted the fastest lap times of all the boats for the day. That was interesting as we really were just going for a good shake-down sail. We took the rear flaps off the wing and just laid the wing forward in the dinghy park for the night.

Posted ImageThe dinghy park at Weston Yacht Club was a hive of activity in the morning as everyone else had turned up for the weekend. Besides Will's M20, we now had Peter Vink on the much hyped (and deservedly so) new NACRA F20c, and the mighty TEK KAT 23 to deal with along with a host of Tornado Sports and current F-18's. Overall, the event had managed to get a pretty high quality fleet of boats and it was great to see a big winged 'C' sitting amongst all the 'T' s, 'N's, 'V's and 'H's. The mornings wind really crapped out come race time. I don't think there was much trapezing up the first beat and we came around the top mark hard on the heels of the TEK KAT with the F-20 another five boat lengths out front. Down-wind we just got crucified by the kite boats. We had some real issues with the amount of force it took to hold the full camber in the wing. We didn't have the system onboard which we had used to good effect in Newport and we paid the price. The wind was down around 4-5 knots and dropping. Our angles were terrible whilst the kite boats could still make a decent VMG. I know we can do much better than this so it was quite frustrating not to be able to find our 'Mojo'. In the end the wind crapped out completely... but our race was effectively over half way along that down-wind leg. It was both frustrating but equally illuminating of an area we need to focus a lot more on. That afternoon the breeze came in a little so I gave the helm over to Will Sunnucks and let him take INVICTUS for a blast. I showed him how it all works upwind and downwind and generally let him absorb the pleasure of gliding along in a big, smooth winged wonder. There was just enough wind for the boat to begin to power up and, well, I'll simply say that I'm pretty sure that Will's smile said it all.

Weston yacht club put on a great and well attended social night complete with a fantastic fire-works display (see photo, top of the page). I had the opportunity to give a talk about our program and the C-class in general along with some speed sailing stuff. Fortunately I was preaching to the converted because if there are two things I can talk about... it's the aforementioned. Helena always laughs when people ask if I would like to do a talk! It was another nice night, perfect for fireworks. It was so calm in fact that we just lowered the whole wing forward behind the yacht club fully rigged ready for hoisting the next morning.

Posted ImageThankfully there was a bit more breeze the following day. It was a cool and patchy, Northerly which varied between 5-15 knots. I got down there early and simply pulled the wing up, clipped on the trapezes and threaded the mainsheet. She was ready to go and I had promised to take another keen cat sailor in Jon Worthington out for a blast. It's a pleasure to share the boat with such appreciative and enthusiastic sailors. I'm pretty used to the scale of the boat... but I'm sure it blows away someone who is still coming to grips with an F-18. These guys are all pretty sharp sailors so it's no worries to hand over the helm straight away. In this case, Jon got a great sail in. He also got a sense of the rapid transition you have on these boats from graceful hull flying to "oh-shit" teetering on the edge of cliff of shame if you get too cocky. Respect the wing Jon... respect the wing! Great stuff. A C-class is a pretty exotic boat and getting to take one for a blast is something to be savoured. It still gives me a huge buzz.

When the racing started, I think we had some issues on the first start where we got stuck in irons spinning before the gun (sound familiar)? We were left behind effectively starting over a minute late. Despite this we still came around the top mark up at the sharp end of the 20 foot plus fleet. Once again we struggled down-wind. I was trying to sail a bit hotter down-wind with more weight to windward. My theory being that it was quite patchy and we might be able to stay hooked up with apparent wind for longer. When we were hooked up, we weren't that far off the pace. The trouble was we were mostly not in the groove... or all over the place chasing it. The boat didn't feel as slick down-wind as she was in Newport. We got hit by a gust whilst heading for the leeward gate and did stuff but the big bows saved us again. Whilst rounding up around the leeward mark, I heard a noise I knew meant trouble. Our new/old 2004 dagger board had snapped. We still had enough down to be effective upwind so we pushed on. We had lost about %50 of our area. It wasn't so bad as long as we 'footed' off and kept boat speed. In the fresher breeze, Ol' INVICTUS began to flex her 'C' class guns and do that cool upwind thing where she just goes substantially higher and faster than anything else. We would get left behind downwind... and find ourselves coming back into the top mark with the front runners.

We had great starts on the third and fourth races and gave everyone a good look at how a wing-sailed catamaran can go to weather... even with only half a dagger-board. Towards the end of the third race I began to move further to leeward down-wind and trade speed for depth. It worked a lot better and when in the groove we could almost... but not quite hang on to the good guys. Whenever we lost it we would get rolled by anything with a kite including the Spitfires from time to time. I bet they liked that. We can really screw some boats up as we do big dial ups in search of apparent and force everyone above us up... way up. Sorry guys/girls... that's what we need to do. The more we sailed the sharper we got. Equally we became aware of the performance killing issues that we were carrying. The broken board contributed to a couple of blown tacks which cost us around 30-40 seconds each time (feels like an hour when it happens), the slot was a total mess as the controlling fingers had opened up and in the end we even got one of the fingers stuck in our second element. This final piece was the equivalent of getting a jib batten stuck on the mast and not blowing through (for those of you who have sailed on Hobie 16's a bit). We had to carry that for all of the fourth race. I tried to take one more joy-rider in Ferdinand Van West out but the wind had died and I realised the damage that the jammed finger could do when cambering the wing on one side. It could only be remedied by dropping the wing. We took INVICTUS back to shore and began packing her away in her trailer for the tow back to Bristol. I owe you a proper ride Ferdinand.

CONCLUSION

Posted ImageWhat a fantastic weekend. It was so much more fun to be out there sailing with friends old and new than playing around by ourselves down in Weymouth... and 10 times more valuable. Nothing improves the breed like racing. You can't hide from your weak points and god knows we have some. We had some glaring issues but then many of them can be resolved. I think it was easy to see where we could gain big chunks around the course with more practice and tuning. It was fantastic to line up against the cream of the modern beach cats. We got to see firsthand just how quick the NACRA F-20, 'Sunnucks special' M20 and TEK KAT could be when they hit their stride. Equally they got glimpses of what a 'C' could do in its stride. Knowing our own issues, what I had recently seen of the best 'C' classes in the Little Americas Cup and what I saw on the week-end, my gut feeling is that a good crew on the latest tweaked 'C' i.e. Fred and Magnus on Canaan... would come out on top.

Some people took a cheeky shot at our downwind performance but then you have to respect the 'C' class rule. Sure, we could put a kite on our boat and have the same advantage down-wind as we do upwind but that (well, let's be honest... that would make for one very cool and wickedly fast boat... as we will soon see in its 45 foot form)... where was I? Oh yeah, that... would not be a 'C' class. The fact is that we could put a kite on a C and go fast down-wind... but there is nothing so simple you could put on any of the other boats to go so fast upwind... except a wing of course. The challenge of a C is to design and build 300 square feet of sail area which flies upwind and gives power beyond its area limitation down-wind. It forces you to sail extremely efficiently and quite often in a unique 'C' specific manner. They are great boats and the more we can go and play in fleets like this, the better we will become. Funny enough, both the F-20 and the TEK KAT had to retire at the end of the day due to broken kite poles! Hmmmm;)

THE FUTURE

Well, one way or another, the UK and hopefully the continental catamaran fleets will see more and more of the C-class. It's up to us to develop ourselves up to the point where we can do the business up the sharp end and release the full potential of the C. We simply have to go racing. The weekend showed us that the new boats are damned quick (with a lot less cost and hassle) and if we make any slips then they will just eat us up and spit us out, but if we string it together on a new hot boat...like I said, I reckon the 'C' could still be king. I could be wrong but either way, it will be great fun finding out. It's up to us to prove it and we sure have some work to do. It would be great to see Fred and Steve Clark come over and do some of the other big events before the next Little Americas Cup in Weymouth in 2013. We should aim to tie it in. The C-class can only do itself favours by sailing in mixed events.

THANKS

Gordon and I, on behalf of the INVICTUS Team would like to thank everyone at Weston Yacht Club, Stuart, Carl and Grant for pushing/inviting us to come down and to the ladies and club in general for making us feel so welcome. The pleasure was ours and we will be back. Thanks also to everyone who helped us rig up and generally put up with our space hungry beast in the boat park and on the water. The club put on a great regatta. It was fantastic to see such an enthusiastic and high quality cat fleet... in November. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what you are on... it's just fun getting out there and going for it... I've missed this scene.

Cheers, Paul.

All pictures by Helena Darvelid, and you can find more on the Team Invictus Blog.

11/10/10

#232 Wing sail

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 01:03 PM

When I started this Blog most did not belive in wings, well I think they do now



From SA main page


those damn wings
Posted Image
They seem to be everywhere, well maybe not so much in the Moth class anymore, but for sure in the upcoming AC. Thanks to Gilles Martin-Raget for this closer look and loads more can be found here.

01/15/11



#233 RobG

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:08 AM

When I started this Blog most did not belive in wings, well I think they do now
[...]
They seem to be everywhere, well maybe not so much in the Moth class anymore...


Development of wing sails will continue in the Moth class. They aren't legal at the moment because a change of the measurement rules in 2005 means that there is currently no way to measure them, so they were inadvertently excluded rather than banned specifically. An EGM later this year should fix that.

Regardless, there will be a number of them around the traps before the next Worlds in August 2012 at Campione. And if they are faster around a course than a soft sail in the conditions that prevail on that part of Lake Garda, you can expect to see quite a few of them. :-)


--
Rob

#234 us772

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:40 PM

Wings are catching on more for iceboating/landsailing. Unfortunately the ISA banned them from racing in the skeeter class years ago. Vid from yesterday.-


When I started this Blog most did not belive in wings, well I think they do now



From SA main page


those damn wings
Posted Image
They seem to be everywhere, well maybe not so much in the Moth class anymore, but for sure in the upcoming AC. Thanks to Gilles Martin-Raget for this closer look and loads more can be found here.

01/15/11



#235 RobG

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 06:25 AM

A burning question in the Moth wing debate is why is a winged A class is slower upwind and faster downwind than a soft-sail, but a winged Moth is faster upwind but slower down. Any suggestions?

--
Rob

#236 Scarecrow

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 09:18 AM

The A wing as it raced was two floppy in the aft section causing the slot to close up. I believe this was rectified by bmwo once they bought it.

#237 rule69

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 07:04 PM

A burning question in the Moth wing debate is why is a winged A class is slower upwind and faster downwind than a soft-sail, but a winged Moth is faster upwind but slower down. Any suggestions?

--
Rob


Purest speculation: weight is more of an issue down-wind with the foiler. With the moth I'm guessing the wing has excess power upwind and the added drag on the foils is offset by the decreased air drag on the rig. Downwind the rig might not be developing enough lift in excess of the "conventional" rig to make up for the extra induced drag on the foils... Or not... Also, of course, these are generation 1 wings so it may be that they are not working to best effect either because they aren't being trimmed correctly or aren't optimally shaped.

#238 teknologika

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:58 AM

Purest speculation: weight is more of an issue down-wind with the foiler. With the moth I'm guessing the wing has excess power upwind and the added drag on the foils is offset by the decreased air drag on the rig. Downwind the rig might not be developing enough lift in excess of the "conventional" rig to make up for the extra induced drag on the foils... Or not... Also, of course, these are generation 1 wings so it may be that they are not working to best effect either because they aren't being trimmed correctly or aren't optimally shaped.


If you want to suggest that Double Olympic Bronze medalist Charlie McKee wasn't trimming correctly at the worlds, be my guest, but I think he was doing just fine.

#239 P Flados

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 11:55 PM


Purest speculation: weight is more of an issue down-wind with the foiler. With the moth I'm guessing the wing has excess power upwind and the added drag on the foils is offset by the decreased air drag on the rig. Downwind the rig might not be developing enough lift in excess of the "conventional" rig to make up for the extra induced drag on the foils... Or not... Also, of course, these are generation 1 wings so it may be that they are not working to best effect either because they aren't being trimmed correctly or aren't optimally shaped.


If you want to suggest that Double Olympic Bronze medalist Charlie McKee wasn't trimming correctly at the worlds, be my guest, but I think he was doing just fine.


"Trimming correctly" implies that setting up the wing for optimum down wind performance is understood and the sailor is just translating this knowledge into action.

From the interviews and blog statements, it did not seem that anyone was ready to say that "setting up the wing for optimum down wind performance" is really figured out. Remember that trimming is now, overall angle of attack, overall camber, flap angle, gap and any twist settings. I am absolutely confident that Charlie was getting better fast, but I would bet that he would say that there was still a whole lot of room to go.

#240 SimonN

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 07:00 AM

Charie is a great sailor but that doesn't change physics and even for him, there is a whole new learning curve. Sailing with a wing is different from a soft sail and keeping flow correctly attached is the issue, not least because you cannot see the seperation bubble and ony feel the effects of getting it wrong when it is too late. I know that Adam was saying how he was having to steer some pretty wild courses to get the flow to re-attach. It's a whole new world!

Therefore, I think the phrase "wasn't trimming correctly" is correct, but in this case it might be kinder to say that he wasn't operating the wing to maximum efficiency ;)

#241 rule69

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:08 PM


Purest speculation: weight is more of an issue down-wind with the foiler. With the moth I'm guessing the wing has excess power upwind and the added drag on the foils is offset by the decreased air drag on the rig. Downwind the rig might not be developing enough lift in excess of the "conventional" rig to make up for the extra induced drag on the foils... Or not... Also, of course, these are generation 1 wings so it may be that they are not working to best effect either because they aren't being trimmed correctly or aren't optimally shaped.


If you want to suggest that Double Olympic Bronze medalist Charlie McKee wasn't trimming correctly at the worlds, be my guest, but I think he was doing just fine.


That was poorly worded on my part. All I intended to suggest was that even the best sailors may need some time to lean how to trim wings to best effect particularly as they are used on different platforms. And, even that was under the heading of "purest speculation". It would be wonderful to hear how the sailors felt about their own performance. I did not mean to offend. If I did I am very sorry. I could not hold these sailors in any higher regard. There was no criticism intended just speculation on the state of the art.

#242 hiroller

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:26 AM

I'm pretty sure the reason is mentioned on this site somewhere but I can't find it.
Basically, there isn't enough twist in the Moth rig for downwind.
So if you set the bottom of the rig right, the top is oversheeted and vice versa.
This is not a driver related issue!

#243 hiroller

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 03:34 AM


Purest speculation: weight is more of an issue down-wind with the foiler. With the moth I'm guessing the wing has excess power upwind and the added drag on the foils is offset by the decreased air drag on the rig. Downwind the rig might not be developing enough lift in excess of the "conventional" rig to make up for the extra induced drag on the foils... Or not... Also, of course, these are generation 1 wings so it may be that they are not working to best effect either because they aren't being trimmed correctly or aren't optimally shaped.


If you want to suggest that Double Olympic Bronze medalist Charlie McKee wasn't trimming correctly at the worlds, be my guest, but I think he was doing just fine.


And buddy that was good enough for me
Good enough for me and Charlie McKee

(With apologies to Janis Joplin)

#244 Wing sail

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:05 PM

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mono wing

Posted Image
Wing fever has also reached Hungary and Lake Balaton! Boat builder Geza Soponyai has test sailed a wing sail last weekend on Lake Balaton, which is set behind the boat´s "normal mast" and is stored on the boom and hoisted similarly to a regular soft sail. The wing is 19 meters high 4,8 meters wide and weighs 150kg. It consists of two main segments each made of 14 elements, allowing the area of the wing to be reduced in case necessary.

Here is a video of the wing sail with some explanation (in Hungarian only) and some light wind sailing. Boat is a Nautic 12 meter - racer version built in carbon buy Soponyai's Nautic boatyard in Hungary.

Aim is to win the most prestigious Hungarian lake race, the annual "Kékszalag", a round the lake race with about 500 boats expected to enter. (length appr. 185km). Anarchist Laszlo.


05/25/11





#245 flojo

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:12 PM

You forgot Frankenwing.

#246 vmg

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 05:20 PM

Its a pretty good effort.

A rotating mast might be a better starting point though

#247 Wing sail

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:09 PM

from

Harbor Wing

this fixed wing is about to go on a Contour 50' for the US Navy


http://www.harborwingtech.com/

and behind this is Morrelli and Melvin who else?


http://www.morrellimelvin.com/

Attached Files



#248 Basiliscus

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 01:57 AM

Harborwing X-2 prototype has been launched and is undergoing sea trials in San Diego.
Posted Image


Posted Image

The boat is tied up to Flip at the Scripps base. I spent Sat morning aboard with the Program Manager, Mark Ott. They will be doing some work with the Navy in San Diego, using the X-2 as a testbed for some operational concepts. There may be a voyage through the Panama Canal in its future. One of the biggest questions people have about the wing is whether or not it can stand up to, and be managed in, weather encounters at sea, and a long voyage would help to address those concerns.

The control system is pretty cool. Load sensors in the mast at each bearing allow the loads to be controlled directly. In the event of an actuator failure, the tail surfaces will float to a damped trail position, neutralizing the wing. And with dual tails, it is possible for one tail to neutralize a hard-over failure of the other tail. They've tested the wing with the tails toed in and toed out, as well as straight, and the wing is stable in all three configurations.

Although this prototype is basically fly-by-wire, I don't see any reason why a purely mechanical control system couldn't be developed that would be suitable for a cruiser. For any given tail setting, the wing will trim at a constant angle of attack, and will maintain that angle of attack as the apparent wind angle changes. When a gust hits, there is typically a change in apparent wind strength and a change in apparent wind angle. The tail will handle the change in apparent wind angle all by itself. This alone provides a significant amount of gust alleviation. A crew would need to handle the change in force due to the change in wind strength.

The X-2 is a good size for a testbed. It's big enough to carry instrumentation or other systems, and it is large enough in scale to be relevant to more ambitious projects. As it is, it's a great size for developing a rig for the cruiser market or as auxiliary propulsion for motor craft. It's definitely a boat worth looking into to develop a wide range of applications.

#249 hump101

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 07:40 AM

And with dual tails, it is possible for one tail to neutralize a hard-over failure of the other tail. They've tested the wing with the tails toed in and toed out, as well as straight, and the wing is stable in all three configurations.

The dual tails and supports look like a lot of parasitic drag, particularly toed in/out relative to local flow. Did they give you any numbers for this?

If it is fly by wire, couldn't they get the computer to adjust the camber and AoA and achieve the same thing without all the control surfaces, or are they aiming for autonomy?

#250 blunted

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 12:59 PM


And with dual tails, it is possible for one tail to neutralize a hard-over failure of the other tail. They've tested the wing with the tails toed in and toed out, as well as straight, and the wing is stable in all three configurations.

The dual tails and supports look like a lot of parasitic drag, particularly toed in/out relative to local flow. Did they give you any numbers for this?

If it is fly by wire, couldn't they get the computer to adjust the camber and AoA and achieve the same thing without all the control surfaces, or are they aiming for autonomy?


Autonomy and minimal ongoing energy consumption. Te parasitic drag is still very low as they are foil shapes after all. The computer does trim the thing, just with very few watts per mile sailed.

#251 PL3

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Posted 23 November 2011 - 10:06 PM

and behind this is Morrelli and Melvin who else?

Actually it was Dave Hubbard that has been working on the design of the wing, which has been testing in Hawaii for a few years now.

Dave designed the original three element wing over 37 years ago (and hulls/platform) for the C Class Patient Lady series as well as DC's wing on Stars & Stripes and many others.

Every wing you see today from Dogzilla to the AC 45's are pretty much identical in concept, planform & control systems to Dave's brilliant breakthrough ideas in the 1970's.

#252 Basiliscus

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:44 PM

The dual tails and supports look like a lot of parasitic drag, particularly toed in/out relative to local flow. Did they give you any numbers for this?

If it is fly by wire, couldn't they get the computer to adjust the camber and AoA and achieve the same thing without all the control surfaces, or are they aiming for autonomy?



We didn't get into any numbers with regard to the aerodynamics.

The tails don't have to be toed in or out. A small amount of toe-in may make the control more precise about zero angle of attack if precision low-speed maneuvering was the main objective. The main reason for testing toe-in and toe-out was to cover possible failure configurations.

They are looking for autonomy, and also long endurance. It requires less power to move a tail and have the aerodynamics move the wing than it does to muscle the wing itself. And if the power fails the wing is still stable, unlike the case without tails.

#253 Dick Ishuge

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:11 PM

The computer does trim the thing, just with very few watts per mile sailed.


Though some of those fascinated by wing technology (like me) may have seen it before, I thought some of y'all might be interested in this video and the design evolution of the Festo air jelly, air ray, penguin, and finally their seagul and elephant trunk.
Their main finding is that wing twist and precision AOA control is crucial at least to get high enough efficiency to mimic bird flight with a model that can stay aloft (maintain positive lift) with little forward motion. Their exploration of adaptive/flexible surfaces has been ongoing for several years so you can drill down to previous efforts. I think of interest to sailors (well at least to me) is the way in which their flex technology for their elephant trunk and adaptive shape grippers could/might be used by tallented people like blunted to make a wing and an electronic control system that could tack the wing. ie a wing that wouldnt need a hinge. Take a peek -> http://www.festo.com...68.htm#id_11468

it certainly looks like these engineers are having fun with air. I wonder what they could come up with if they turned to the sailing boat?

RI

#254 Wing sail

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 02:43 PM

great Link

This is what this Blog is all about

Dick Ishuge Thank you for that great post

#255 fastsailing

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 09:23 AM

Hi all,

I received a link of this discussion and reading it with much interest.

We, designer/ me and EU yard are looking into sail wing designs to be implemented in a new boat design (as an option)
Of course we look at it commercially too, but we also want to bring innovations on the market.
For now we are investigating the options on what and how.
And we hope to collaborate with another EU party in the(ier) design.

We have plans for a mono-hull with radical design, and maybe a minitransat. (we are investigating this)

As we only have the build facility and not the capabilities of designing a wing, we will pursue some ideas in wing sails like:
KLICK

Please check Team 1 Atilgan & Team 15 Jigsaw
These have our interest.
Drawback of team one (in their mono-hull design) was that with a length of approx 40cm the keel has a depth of about 30 cm, which could be difficult in "real life".

Anyway, looking forward to continue reading this discussion and see what options we have and what ideas we could/ can work with.


Patrick

#256 trimariner

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:09 PM

Dick Ishuge [really!] Seriously that is the most interesting link I have seen in a long time. Thank you.

#257 Savoyard

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:01 PM

Seaworthiness?

What happens in a squall? Would you take a wingsail boat to the Roaring Forties? Places where a bare pole is more than one would want up, much less...


well I would suggest longer bows and t-foil rudders for something like that in the death zone, control through speed up until the death part

. Sorry to be off topic, but what I really want to ask Blunted is what Ackerman angle seems to work well on a C Class. I am launching a renovated c Class platform, underrigged as befits my age, to use as a day sailer, and I thought it would be neat to at least use the same or similar Ackerman angle as the modern ones use.

#258 Steve Clark

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:45 PM

Seven Degrees
SHC

#259 Catnewbie

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:17 PM

Hi Savoyard,

Sorry for my ignorance, what is the Ackerman angle please?

In addition I would have a question about Clysar on Wing:

Is Clysar wrapped around the composite leading edge, or double-side tape along the end of each side of the leading edge ?

Thanks in advance

W

#260 Catnewbie

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:20 PM

Don't bother, I googlized "Ackerman angle" and got the answer.

Thanks

W

#261 blunted

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:02 PM

Hi Savoyard,

Sorry for my ignorance, what is the Ackerman angle please?

In addition I would have a question about Clysar on Wing:

Is Clysar wrapped around the composite leading edge, or double-side tape along the end of each side of the leading edge ?

Thanks in advance

W


Attached File  Film application sketch.jpg   190.66K   144 downloads

Should cover it....he he he

Not around the front, unless you are going Aussie style with no paint, then it's a good idea until the spray blasts through it.

Drawing says ployester tape, vinyl works better for most people. Also zero sided is a mis-nomer, just use double sided.

#262 flojo

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:28 AM


The computer does trim the thing, just with very few watts per mile sailed.


Though some of those fascinated by wing technology (like me) may have seen it before, I thought some of y'all might be interested in this video and the design evolution of the Festo air jelly, air ray, penguin, and finally their seagul and elephant trunk.
Their main finding is that wing twist and precision AOA control is crucial at least to get high enough efficiency to mimic bird flight with a model that can stay aloft (maintain positive lift) with little forward motion. Their exploration of adaptive/flexible surfaces has been ongoing for several years so you can drill down to previous efforts. I think of interest to sailors (well at least to me) is the way in which their flex technology for their elephant trunk and adaptive shape grippers could/might be used by tallented people like blunted to make a wing and an electronic control system that could tack the wing. ie a wing that wouldnt need a hinge. Take a peek -> http://www.festo.com...68.htm#id_11468

it certainly looks like these engineers are having fun with air. I wonder what they could come up with if they turned to the sailing boat?

RI

Festo is using "adaptive pneumatic textile structures" technology, partly combined with the principles of "Tensairity" developped by Prospective Concepts. Those principles are now further developped at the Center for Synergetic Structures at EMPA, which itself is part of ETH, the "swiss MIT/Caltech". On these sites you'll find plenty of scientific information about these subjects.

Examples:
Pneuwing
Adaptive Wing
Tensairity Kites
Original Flying Man

I always expected Alinghi to use these technologies to build a wing for A5, which - sadly - didn't happen.

#263 Catnewbie

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:26 AM

Thank you very much Blunted,

Not sure I understood what vinyl is used for:

Either you paint the leading edge either you wrap vinyl around it ? for waterproof purpose?

I guess "the Aussie style" makes reference to the Ronstan C-Cat
With regards to this point, I remenber their wing has been loaded by rain ?? Not sure.

By the way, I observe the Damien Smith's wing has not reappear,
The concept was a bit different from Cogito's one, but there is very few info about it.

Thanks for your precious guidelines

Cheers

W

#264 pcraig

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

The vinyl or polyester tape is there to prevent airflow and moisture from peeling back the clysar from the double sided tape. The vinyl or polyester tape doesn't have to go all the way around the leading edge.

Having attended the 2004 C-class champs as part of the sailing team for Team Invictus, I saw first hand what happened to the Ronstan wing that Damian created. When it rained, it absorbed all the moisture into the honeycomb and filled up. It got a bit heavy by the end of the day. Damians idea was to make an incredibly simple wing, and it certainly was but unfortunately didn't have enough grunt as the flap mechanism just didn't generate enough power. His wing got away from the clysar problem, but I think all the other challengers have proven that clysar works really well and is really easy strip back to make repairs and then replace.

#265 Steve Clark

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:38 PM

On Ronstan.
We all get pretty obsessive about saving weight.
Paint is pretty heavy and does very little for you, so it is easy to say, I will stay ugly and light.
And if you are from western Australia where it essentially never rains, it is easy to believe that the parts of your wing do not have to be waterproof.
I have found myself occasionally wondering how water resistant the wing materials have to be.

These laminates are very light and so are full of pinholes. It makes it a pain in the ass to paint. It also provides a direct shot to the cells of the Nomex or whatever core you are using. The Ronstan wing had a lot of surface area which was constructed out of something like 070g/m^2 Kevlar on either side of 12mm Nomex. It rained really hard on the first day of the 2004 event, and the wing absorbed something in the order of 25 liters of water. You literally could see the water sloshing around in the Nomex. The wing was so heavy that when it was lowered, it really could not support itself like a beached whale. We all helped move it inside their container and rigged extra supports for the night. The next day Damien spent 8 hours with a wet dry vacuum cleaner sucking water out through the skin.

From a performance standpoint, Ronstan had some pretty basic flaws. The daggerboards were about 30% smaller than they should have been. I don't know how Damien arrived at the conclusion that we had all been sailing with boards that were too big, but he did. The second problem had to do with the flap arrangement. Essentially the #3 flap did not translate to windward as it was deflected. The pivot point was right at the flap leading edge. The #2 flap fell through the slot to leeward. This seemed to induce asymmetry the wrong way. When questioned about it, Damien said that his boundary layer analysis showed that this was the right thing to do. Once again seeming to fly in the face of aerodynamic tradition. So while the wing was OK upwind in a breeze, as soon as higherCLs were needed, it was pretty hopeless.
They would have done better if Gavin Colby hadn't insisted in "going wild" at a 150 degree gybe angles and letting Paul run mild right through them.
Duncan Dave and I were pretty convinced we could make the Ronstan bits far more competitive within a week by changing out the boards and redesigning the flap pivots. The boat wasn't very heavy, and I probably would have been trying to pull those mods during the regatta.

Instead the team imploded. Instead of working the problem, Damien, Gavin and Darren all started fighting and blaming each other. The one thing the owner Ian Jenkins wanted was not to be humiliated. But his team did not spare him. So the boat has been cut up to become some sort of foiler, the wing is hanging in a shed somewhere and what could have been, isn't.
SHC

#266 Savoyard

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:09 PM

Seven Degrees
SHC

Thank you Steve. Much obliged. As always,like a true gentleman, you are prepared to spread your wisdom and experience to
the "hoi poloi" Savoyard.

#267 Savoyard

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:47 PM

On Ronstan.
We all get pretty obsessive about saving weight.
Paint is pretty heavy and does very little for you, so it is easy to say, I will stay ugly and light.
And if you are from western Australia where it essentially never rains, it is easy to believe that the parts of your wing do not have to be waterproof.
I have found myself occasionally wondering how water resistant the wing materials have to be.

These laminates are very light and so are full of pinholes. It makes it a pain in the ass to paint. It also provides a direct shot to the cells of the Nomex or whatever core you are using. The Ronstan wing had a lot of surface area which was constructed out of something like 070g/m^2 Kevlar on either side of 12mm Nomex. It rained really hard on the first day of the 2004 event, and the wing absorbed something in the order of 25 liters of water. You literally could see the water sloshing around in the Nomex. The wing was so heavy that when it was lowered, it really could not support itself like a beached whale. We all helped move it inside their container and rigged extra supports for the night. The next day Damien spent 8 hours with a wet dry vacuum cleaner sucking water out through the skin.

From a performance standpoint, Ronstan had some pretty basic flaws. The daggerboards were about 30% smaller than they should have been. I don't know how Damien arrived at the conclusion that we had all been sailing with boards that were too big, but he did. The second problem had to do with the flap arrangement. Essentially the #3 flap did not translate to windward as it was deflected. The pivot point was right at the flap leading edge. The #2 flap fell through the slot to leeward. This seemed to induce asymmetry the wrong way. When questioned about it, Damien said that his boundary layer analysis showed that this was the right thing to do. Once again seeming to fly in the face of aerodynamic tradition. So while the wing was OK upwind in a breeze, as soon as higherCLs were needed, it was pretty hopeless.
They would have done better if Gavin Colby hadn't insisted in "going wild" at a 150 degree gybe angles and letting Paul run mild right through them.
Duncan Dave and I were pretty convinced we could make the Ronstan bits far more competitive within a week by changing out the boards and redesigning the flap pivots. The boat wasn't very heavy, and I probably would have been trying to pull those mods during the regatta.

Instead the team imploded. Instead of working the problem, Damien, Gavin and Darren all started fighting and blaming each other. The one thing the owner Ian Jenkins wanted was not to be humiliated. But his team did not spare him. So the boat has been cut up to become some sort of foiler, the wing is hanging in a shed somewhere and what could have been, isn't.
SHC

One more question if I may Steve. I note your comments about dagger board area in the above posting. I have replaced the centreboards in my old hulls with daggerboards, similar area but higher aspect ratio. The boards will now have a fully down dimension of 44 inches depth by 16 inches chord, 704 sq inches or 4.9 sq feet.

#268 Catnewbie

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:13 PM

Thank you Mr Clark, Thank you PCraig,

Very insightfull info as usual,

I guess the composite leading edge's lenght as chord%, and therefore, the junction where vinyl tape is used, are positionned a bit downstream the bubble ramp of the #1wing section, which should be around the section maximun thickness?

Regarding Ronstan, I will add:
The probleme with young scientists, is that they are a bit ideologist: (When reality does not meet their theory, they want to change the reality, it is so much easier!!)

I wish you the best in refining Aethon for next year, and if you wish to find a new name, I would suggest "Phoenix", with reference to the antique myth.

Thanks again,

Cheers Everybody

W

#269 Steve Clark

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 01:41 PM

I wish you the best in refining Aethon for next year, and if you wish to find a new name, I would suggest "Phoenix", with reference to the antique myth.


"Aethon" is one of the many pseudonyms used by Odysseus. After 10 years at the wars, and presumed dead, his reappearance is shocking enough. He then kicks some major ass. I think the boat is well named, but thanks for the suggestion.
SHC

#270 mad

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

On Ronstan.
We all get pretty obsessive about saving weight.
Paint is pretty heavy and does very little for you, so it is easy to say, I will stay ugly and light.
And if you are from western Australia where it essentially never rains, it is easy to believe that the parts of your wing do not have to be waterproof.
I have found myself occasionally wondering how water resistant the wing materials have to be.

These laminates are very light and so are full of pinholes. It makes it a pain in the ass to paint. It also provides a direct shot to the cells of the Nomex or whatever core you are using. The Ronstan wing had a lot of surface area which was constructed out of something like 070g/m^2 Kevlar on either side of 12mm Nomex. It rained really hard on the first day of the 2004 event, and the wing absorbed something in the order of 25 liters of water. You literally could see the water sloshing around in the Nomex. The wing was so heavy that when it was lowered, it really could not support itself like a beached whale. We all helped move it inside their container and rigged extra supports for the night. The next day Damien spent 8 hours with a wet dry vacuum cleaner sucking water out through the skin.

From a performance standpoint, Ronstan had some pretty basic flaws. The daggerboards were about 30% smaller than they should have been. I don't know how Damien arrived at the conclusion that we had all been sailing with boards that were too big, but he did. The second problem had to do with the flap arrangement. Essentially the #3 flap did not translate to windward as it was deflected. The pivot point was right at the flap leading edge. The #2 flap fell through the slot to leeward. This seemed to induce asymmetry the wrong way. When questioned about it, Damien said that his boundary layer analysis showed that this was the right thing to do. Once again seeming to fly in the face of aerodynamic tradition. So while the wing was OK upwind in a breeze, as soon as higherCLs were needed, it was pretty hopeless.
They would have done better if Gavin Colby hadn't insisted in "going wild" at a 150 degree gybe angles and letting Paul run mild right through them.
Duncan Dave and I were pretty convinced we could make the Ronstan bits far more competitive within a week by changing out the boards and redesigning the flap pivots. The boat wasn't very heavy, and I probably would have been trying to pull those mods during the regatta.

Instead the team imploded. Instead of working the problem, Damien, Gavin and Darren all started fighting and blaming each other. The one thing the owner Ian Jenkins wanted was not to be humiliated. But his team did not spare him. So the boat has been cut up to become some sort of foiler, the wing is hanging in a shed somewhere and what could have been, isn't.
SHC

Always wondered what happened to the program...hope they don't mind it being made public :o

#271 us772

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

I've been compiling a bunch of old photos and video of the evolution of solid wings for iceboating and landsailing and posted it on youtube.


#272 blunted

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:38 PM

I've been compiling a bunch of old photos and video of the evolution of solid wings for iceboating and landsailing and posted it on youtube.


It's easy to forget how many more wings you dirt and ice racers build than the wet wing folks. Nice job on the video and nice job on the wings!

So sad I didn't make it out to Ivampa from SD when you guys invited me, would have been a blast.

B

#273 us772

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 05:03 AM

I had a question for the wing experts about flap leading edges and the slot gap.
I'm in the midst of completing the flap on a new wing design for my self. The flap is a naca 0012. I can make the LE blunter than normal if necessary. I was wondering if that is a good or bad idea?
Gap - Last fall I sailed the boat pictured in my icon in very light air. I have a standard 2 element system on it much like Tom Speer's examples on his web page. In 2008 I set the pivot point on the flap on the mainwing at about 14% of the flaps chord which is a 50% main wing 50% flap. Its a naca 0015% section on the flap. The next year out of curiosity I set the pivot point at about 10% making the gap smaller but at the same time making the leeward flow smoother looking by the eye at 30 degrees flap angle. The thinking that it would perform better ( getting attached better) at lower wind speeds. In the change I ended up breaking a drill bit drilling a new hole to pin the hinges in place. I assumed it made no difference at the time and since the drill bit was stuck I left it alone. This fall at the desert we had a no wind day. I was bored and worked on getting the drill bit out. I succeed and went about putting everything back the way it was at the 14% pivot area. The wind came up very light again so I took it for a sail. I found with a bigger gap that the flap could be deflected with more angle and stay attached than at the 10% set up that I was sailing with the 2 prior days in the same wind strength. Why should this be working better? The attachment is fairly close to the sections I use.


java_foil_flow_field__3_aoa_001.jpg

#274 us772

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:13 PM

I attended the Holy Gale at Smith Creek dry lake near Austin Nevada the last week in June. The winds blew every day I was there. They ranged from 5 to 30 mph. Temps ranged from mid 60's to about 100 degrees f. There was some racing and an enduro called the Cow to Cow enduro. The cow skeletons near the edge of the lake bed are used as racing marks. I brought 2 boats I've recently made. The big one with the wing is a class 2. It has a wing that is about 100 sf, 27' tall. The wing can be sailed with 2 different tips depending on how windy it gets. The boat is 22' wide, 28' long and weighs over 1000 lbs with me in it. The small black boat is a new concept (enclosed fuselage) I made for the International 5.6 Mini class. The mini is a new class that is sweeping the world. At the last world championships 80 of them competed. At the next European championships they are only allowing 100 of them to compete. The US will be hosting the World Championships next year at Smith Creek. Many people all over the world have shown interest competing in the event.

  I ended up getting 3rd in the enduro and 3rd racing with the winged boat. The mini won every race handily.

I made a short instructional video on how to sail a solid wing.http://www.youtube.c...H8UtL89rICpofSA The winds were around 5 mph during the video.

 

holy gale 2013 stills sony 004

 



#275 Speng

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:35 PM

how does the handle control work to control the camber. it looks pretty slick






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