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#1 GCADDY

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:20 PM

I was wondering if anyone out there has applied Vivid paint over baltoplate. The charts say yes but I would like to know if anyone has any experiance. Boat is in brackish salt water . Thanks for any help

#2 Prouda my Pickle Dish

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 07:40 PM

I was wondering if anyone out there has applied Vivid paint over baltoplate. The charts say yes but I would like to know if anyone has any experiance. Boat is in brackish salt water . Thanks for any help

Call Pettit and ask for technical support. It may be OK, but then again it may wind up being one big-ass mess. Call.

#3 silent bob

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 09:09 PM

As the Pickle said, call Tech Support (I don't think Pettit's TS is in India)! You will need to scratch up the Balto real good with 80 grit to get a good physical bite, if they are chemically compatible.

#4 Paint guy

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:07 PM

As the Pickle said, call Tech Support (I don't think Pettit's TS is in India)! You will need to scratch up the Balto real good with 80 grit to get a good physical bite, if they are chemically compatible.



Yes they are compatible. Pettit rep here for the great lakes. We had a baltoplate coated with Vivid White this past spring in Chicago. Give the balto plate a good 80 grit scuff sand, and solvent wipe down. Stay away from acetone, as it evaporates to quick. Once the surface is dry, apply Vivid. If rolling, do not exceed a 3/16 nap roller. If spraying, do not exceed 3 mils thickness per coat. If baltoplate is black, and Vivid is white, plan on a third coat. The first coat of Vivid will absorb some of the baltoplate residue. It does work. What color are you looking at applying? Just remember, proper cure time on the Vivid before launch. Multiple thin coats beats one thick coat.

#5 Paint guy

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 10:09 PM

As the Pickle said, call Tech Support (I don't think Pettit's TS is in India)! You will need to scratch up the Balto real good with 80 grit to get a good physical bite, if they are chemically compatible.



Yes they are compatible. Pettit rep here for the great lakes. We had a baltoplate coated with Vivid White this past spring in Chicago. Give the balto plate a good 80 grit scuff sand, and solvent wipe down. Stay away from acetone, as it evaporates to quick. Once the surface is dry, apply Vivid. If rolling, do not exceed a 3/16 nap roller. If spraying, do not exceed 3 mils thickness per coat. If baltoplate is black, and Vivid is white, plan on a third coat. The first coat of Vivid will absorb some of the baltoplate residue. It does work. What color are you looking at applying? Just remember, proper cure time on the Vivid before launch. Multiple thin coats beats one thick coat.

by the way, our tech support is in Rockaway, NJ. And our tech folks have been with the company for many years. Soon to come is a new phone system, When you call the number, your call will be forwarded to the tech rep for your region. So if you are great lakes or caribbean, you will get me on my cell phone. That's service!



#6 mustang__1

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Posted 06 February 2009 - 11:54 PM

if you are a serious racer, stay away from vivid white. Too soft of a paint to really get smooth. At least its easy to tell when you're diver is getting lazy though...

#7 EWS

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 12:49 AM

what is the fastest available way to go if you want to stick with a white anti-fouling bottom paint?

#8 Prouda my Pickle Dish

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:48 AM

what is the fastest available way to go if you want to stick with a white anti-fouling bottom paint?

As 'Stang said, Vivid ultra white is ablative and a bit too soft for burnishing. However, if you are keeping the boat on trailer/hydrohoist, it will work when rewetted (when the boatis launched). And when it dries out on the trailer, you can lightly sand it smooth(er).

However, when it is rubbed/cleaned while in the water, a cloud of white is released in the water and it freaks out the diver! Give him a heads up.

Also, Vivid Ultra MUST be put on in very thin, light coats or after a couple of weeks, it will come off in sheets. Been there done that.

My vote is for Sea Hawk white. Really hard and burnishable. I went to 1,000 grit and then a soft cloth. Come on down and touch my keel, baby.

(and when can I get that pusher?)

#9 mustang__1

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 02:17 AM

yep. It will smooth out just fine... infact, it smooths out really easy. But thats it. When trying to wetsand it, it just all dissolves. You could use 80grit or newspaper, i dont think it would make a difference... That said, when it did dry, it got shiny. But when wet and trying to sand it, it just got all slimy and didnt feel like a whole lot was being accomplished. I did our hull to 400 and the leading edge of the keel and rudder to 600. But im not sure going past 400 really did anything at all.


And yeah on the cloud of white! Surprised me the first i cleaned the bottom (diver missed a few spots...).

#10 GC Sailor

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 03:06 AM

what is the fastest available way to go if you want to stick with a white anti-fouling bottom paint?

As 'Stang said, Vivid ultra white is ablative and a bit too soft for burnishing. However, if you are keeping the boat on trailer/hydrohoist, it will work when rewetted (when the boatis launched). And when it dries out on the trailer, you can lightly sand it smooth(er).

However, when it is rubbed/cleaned while in the water, a cloud of white is released in the water and it freaks out the diver! Give him a heads up.

Also, Vivid Ultra MUST be put on in very thin, light coats or after a couple of weeks, it will come off in sheets. Been there done that.

My vote is for Sea Hawk white. Really hard and burnishable. I went to 1,000 grit and then a soft cloth. Come on down and touch my keel, baby.

(and when can I get that pusher?)


But can you buy Sea Hawk paints? Web Site says to call them, buy direct?? The paint to match Vivid has no copper?? Vivid has copper. What other Sea Hawk paint has WHITE??

And you WIPE Vivid clean in the water, with a soft cloth, comes out very smooth. No need to sand it.

#11 Paint guy

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 01:56 AM

what is the fastest available way to go if you want to stick with a white anti-fouling bottom paint?

As 'Stang said, Vivid ultra white is ablative and a bit too soft for burnishing. However, if you are keeping the boat on trailer/hydrohoist, it will work when rewetted (when the boatis launched). And when it dries out on the trailer, you can lightly sand it smooth(er).

However, when it is rubbed/cleaned while in the water, a cloud of white is released in the water and it freaks out the diver! Give him a heads up.

Also, Vivid Ultra MUST be put on in very thin, light coats or after a couple of weeks, it will come off in sheets. Been there done that.


My vote is for Sea Hawk white. Really hard and burnishable. I went to 1,000 grit and then a soft cloth. Come on down and touch my keel, baby.

(and when can I get that pusher?)


But can you buy Sea Hawk paints? Web Site says to call them, buy direct?? The paint to match Vivid has no copper?? Vivid has copper. What other Sea Hawk paint has WHITE??

And you WIPE Vivid clean in the water, with a soft cloth, comes out very smooth. No need to sand it.

Vivid does not have copper oxide in it. It has copper thiocyanate in it. it also has zinc. the zinc is a clear slime on the bottom of the boat. In a traditional hard teflon coating, you need to burnish it to get that smoothness, as the paint film does not change once it is immersed. Vivid gets real slick when it goes in the water. The zinc gets a slime coating on the bottom of the boat, like a fish. It reduces drag and friction. Tell the divers NOT to wipe off the clear slime. Wipe off only what you SEE. I actually wipe down with a paper towel.

There are numerous posts identifying "Vivid Ultra". There is no Vivid Ultra. There is Vivid, Vivid Free, and soon to be Vivid ECO. Using Econea, and self polishing copolymer technology.

I have had testimonials from great lakes sailors that have converted from traditional teflon coatings going to Vivid, and have picked up 2 to 3 tenths of a knot in speed, without making any other changes to their boats. Also, fewer trips under the boat for cleaning.

Don't use a brush, or a scotch brite pad on the Vivid. You end up scrubbing off the paint. And if it feels soft, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Remember, you have the "slime factor" that you don't get with traditional coatings.

#12 Ringmaster

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 06:10 AM

I stripprd my bottom a few years ago and started using Vivid. Sprayed on a mix of 4 or 5 parts white and 1 part black. Nice shade of light gray. Easy to see while diving. All I did was burnish with bronze wool before launching. Very smooth but we arn't racing Gran Prix. I keep it clean by wiping with a towel every few weeks. Once again not Gran Prix racers. I know the boat has picked up speed. Like another poster said don't wipe it with an abrasive pad. I learned. As far as paint performance goes I've had hard growth on the very bottom of the keel once each season as soon as the water warms up and then not again all summer. I also seem to get some brown slime once or twice a summer in a few spots between dives. Petit rep told me there are 2 "growing" times for slime. Early and late.

#13 GCADDY

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:39 PM

As the Pickle said, call Tech Support (I don't think Pettit's TS is in India)! You will need to scratch up the Balto real good with 80 grit to get a good physical bite, if they are chemically compatible.



Yes they are compatible. Pettit rep here for the great lakes. We had a baltoplate coated with Vivid White this past spring in Chicago. Give the balto plate a good 80 grit scuff sand, and solvent wipe down. Stay away from acetone, as it evaporates to quick. Once the surface is dry, apply Vivid. If rolling, do not exceed a 3/16 nap roller. If spraying, do not exceed 3 mils thickness per coat. If baltoplate is black, and Vivid is white, plan on a third coat. The first coat of Vivid will absorb some of the baltoplate residue. It does work. What color are you looking at applying? Just remember, proper cure time on the Vivid before launch. Multiple thin coats beats one thick coat.

Thanks for all your replies, Going with red vivid and will sand to 80 grit as prep.

#14 Paint guy

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:54 PM

As the Pickle said, call Tech Support (I don't think Pettit's TS is in India)! You will need to scratch up the Balto real good with 80 grit to get a good physical bite, if they are chemically compatible.



Yes they are compatible. Pettit rep here for the great lakes. We had a baltoplate coated with Vivid White this past spring in Chicago. Give the balto plate a good 80 grit scuff sand, and solvent wipe down. Stay away from acetone, as it evaporates to quick. Once the surface is dry, apply Vivid. If rolling, do not exceed a 3/16 nap roller. If spraying, do not exceed 3 mils thickness per coat. If baltoplate is black, and Vivid is white, plan on a third coat. The first coat of Vivid will absorb some of the baltoplate residue. It does work. What color are you looking at applying? Just remember, proper cure time on the Vivid before launch. Multiple thin coats beats one thick coat.

Thanks for all your replies, Going with red vivid and will sand to 80 grit as prep.


If you have any questions before or during application, don't hesitate to contact me via email. i will help you out anyway I can.

#15 kristian

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:06 PM

For Vivid over VC17, is a complete strip of the VC required?

Thanks

#16 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 01:36 AM

seajet speed These guys are the real innovators. This product has been coating power plant inlet water piping for dozens of years. You would be amazed how many of their competitors actually have to buy the technology license from here.

#17 Paint guy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 02:32 AM

seajet speed These guys are the real innovators. This product has been coating power plant inlet water piping for dozens of years. You would be amazed how many of their competitors actually have to buy the technology license from here.

Vivid over VC17? NO! There are people that have done it, and they were lucky. We actually encourage complete removal of the teflon coating. The only thing that will stick to VC17 is VC17 and SR21. Remove the VC17 with either solvent or sand. Then you have to give yourself a 80 grit tooth sand. Wipe down sanded surface twice with a solvent such as xylene. Stay away from acetone on final wipe down. Acetone flashes to quick, and won't remove all sanding residue. And then when applying Vivid, multiple thin coats with either a foam type roller. If you spray Vivid, don't apply more than 3 mils wet. It will dry to 2 mils. Two coats if you are not planning on burnishing. If you plan on burnishing, put on 3 coats.

There is a system for burnishing cured Vivid. A buffer that does 1750 rpm, a clean wool pad, and Meguiars makes a product called Diamond Cut. M85 is the part number. use it like a finishing glaze. Smooth it down to the porcelain type finish, and you won't compromise your antifouling properties. Burnishing Vivid really is NOT necessary though. Even if you get slight orange peel effect to your surface, it will get super slimy once it goes in.

I personally know a couple of sailboats on Lake Michigan that painted Vivid over their previous VC17 hull, and had minor adhesion issues. The following year they painted over those areas, and are sailing fine. I DON'T ENCOURAGE THAT, AND NEITHER DOES THE COMPANY.

Either way you choose, good luck in all your boating projects during this off season. Spring will be here soon!

#18 JST

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 06:28 PM

Does anyone have any experience with SeaJet?

http://www.seajetpai...ntifouling.html

#19 usa1136

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:02 AM

Have a 30' PHRF boat in NJ. Old owner used Balto. I sanded the Balto with 80 grit and then painted with white Vivid. Used one of those 6" foam rollers with the rounded end for Home Depo. Went on great but very thin. Rolled 4 coats and then wet sanded 220 then 400. Came out great for PHRF racing. Took it out last year and the boat looked great. Waterline wore off slightly, especially where the mooring ball hits the first 4 feet or so.

Put three more coats on last fall and waiting for the spring to wet sand to activate it and splash. So...no need to remove the old Balto.

#20 Barley

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 03:41 PM

Can ANYONE give actual first hand speed comparisons of vivid vs. baltoplate vs. VC offshore. Not it feels faster, its got teflon, or vivid is softer. I am looking for actual numbers. Like a one design boat that changed paints and got faster or slower compared to it's competition. There must be a few boats out there that have changed bottom paints and can give quality comparisons between these products. I currently wet sail a durepox bottom and it is a huge amount of time and money to keep up. I'm considering putting on bottom paint and would like to try and put on the fastest available

#21 valkyrie322

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:59 PM

I'm suprised to see even beer can racers wanting to overcoat baltoplate (or VC offshore) with an ablative paint. I removed ablative to go with the hard, vinyl, 400 grit unidirectional finishable, burnishable, haul ass paints. After 2 seasons (spring and fall) the VC offshore OVER original Baltoplate cleans easily with less hassle than the ablative I had (which was like swimming in a red toxic paint cloud). Just touching a submerged hard paint vs a submerged ablative paint should give you a good idea as to which will wet out and be faster.

Like the wind, my opinions are free, so feel free to disagree.

#22 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 06:19 PM

Back in the 80's. Micron 22 was the benchmark for high performance anti-fouling. They had overtaken and surpassed Baltoplate as the racing finish.. Both products used TBTF as the 'poison' and BP used graphite for the slick finish. M-22 was a true self-polishing paint with an extremely hard finish available in a wide array of bright colors. The finish was so hard you could actually polish it with an electric buffer to a mirror shine. When the TBT was outlawed, the carry on micron products just never were the same. At this point a lot of the boats reverted back to BP. Baltoplate was reformulated at that time using cuprous oxide as the poison and they substituted molybdenum disulphide (really slick shit) as the (for lack of a better term) lubricant. The new baltoplate is not as hard so would never wetsand and burnish out as well as it used to. It also did not have as good an antifouling property as it used to. At this point we were applying a baltoplate bottom, and topcoating it with VC-17. This gave you a great cleanable racing bottom with the advantage of having the BP underneath when the VC (invariably) got damaged and knocked off.

The seajet speed, is a clear silicon coating. It has no antifouling properties whatsoever inasmuch as poison is concerned. It is a "foul release" coating. Essentially NOTHING STICKS TO THIS SHIT!!!. Seriously,,,word. If you don't apply the binder coating first (epoxy w/ additive) the stuff will fall off. True story here, I painted some intake gratings for some big jet pumps with the stuff. We had the gratings set up on some brand new aluminum horses. Well after it was all done, anything I painted on those horses I could take an airhose an blow off the overspray.

I guess I'm rambling and not answering your question. Which is faster? I donno. It is still 95% surface prep,application, and final prepping. What you end up with is a bottom that can be cleaned much easier and less often. Chances are your durepox finish is faster than any of them, but like you say, it's a lot of work.

CMP, the parent company of Seajet, has released a new product called CF-10. It is reportedly a copper free, true self polishing product similar to the Micron-22 series. It is available in a wide variety of colors however, I do not know if it has gone through all the EPA testing required for release in the US. CMP has factories throughout the world so I am sure it will be around soon. I'd love to get ahold of some and check out the performance. I used to sell the products but not anymore, I'll do some more digging around and see what else I can come up with.

#23 Barley

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 07:12 PM

Back in the 80's. Micron 22 was the benchmark for high performance anti-fouling. They had overtaken and surpassed Baltoplate as the racing finish.. Both products used TBTF as the 'poison' and BP used graphite for the slick finish. M-22 was a true self-polishing paint with an extremely hard finish available in a wide array of bright colors. The finish was so hard you could actually polish it with an electric buffer to a mirror shine. When the TBT was outlawed, the carry on micron products just never were the same. At this point a lot of the boats reverted back to BP. Baltoplate was reformulated at that time using cuprous oxide as the poison and they substituted molybdenum disulphide (really slick shit) as the (for lack of a better term) lubricant. The new baltoplate is not as hard so would never wetsand and burnish out as well as it used to. It also did not have as good an antifouling property as it used to. At this point we were applying a baltoplate bottom, and topcoating it with VC-17. This gave you a great cleanable racing bottom with the advantage of having the BP underneath when the VC (invariably) got damaged and knocked off.

The seajet speed, is a clear silicon coating. It has no antifouling properties whatsoever inasmuch as poison is concerned. It is a "foul release" coating. Essentially NOTHING STICKS TO THIS SHIT!!!. Seriously,,,word. If you don't apply the binder coating first (epoxy w/ additive) the stuff will fall off. True story here, I painted some intake gratings for some big jet pumps with the stuff. We had the gratings set up on some brand new aluminum horses. Well after it was all done, anything I painted on those horses I could take an airhose an blow off the overspray.

I guess I'm rambling and not answering your question. Which is faster? I donno. It is still 95% surface prep,application, and final prepping. What you end up with is a bottom that can be cleaned much easier and less often. Chances are your durepox finish is faster than any of them, but like you say, it's a lot of work.

CMP, the parent company of Seajet, has released a new product called CF-10. It is reportedly a copper free, true self polishing product similar to the Micron-22 series. It is available in a wide variety of colors however, I do not know if it has gone through all the EPA testing required for release in the US. CMP has factories throughout the world so I am sure it will be around soon. I'd love to get ahold of some and check out the performance. I used to sell the products but not anymore, I'll do some more digging around and see what else I can come up with.



Thanks!! All experience/info is helpfull. I hope someone chimes in with actual hard data. I find it interesting about the "slime " layer on vivid. Maybe it is faster.
Yes a waterlines durepox bottom is super fast. Maintaining it on a wet sailed boat is almost impossible let alone expensive. Looking for real world data.

#24 JST

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 07:46 PM

Thanks for the info Fixit, if you get more let us know.

#25 Mr. Fixit's brother,, Mr. Fixit

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:41 AM

SeaGrandPrix CF-10

Ok, here is the science behind the CF-10. Very cool, very eco-friendly.

#26 Jangles13

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:28 PM

Let's revisit this...

I currently have Baltoplate from the previous owner which is wearing through at an unknown age, and I'm either going to recoat with Balto, or go to Vivid.

Reasons for Balto: it's there, it works, everyone loves it.
Reasons against: it's expensive, should be sprayed, burnishing takes quite a lot of work, no antifouling properties.

Reasons for Vivid: better (?) antifouling, colors, cheaper, easier/faster/cheaper to apply, no burnishing req'd.
Reasons against: not burnishable, not *as fast* supposedly, may build up some.

I'm a casual PHRF'r. The fleet is spread waaaay out and we easily lose or win because of tacks/hoists/douses/inattention. My bottom paint is not really a factor other than it's a very light wind venue usually and a dirty bottom is slow. That said, with water temperatures remaining in the 50s most of the summer, I don't dive weekly or even bi-weekly.

I've all but talked myself into switching, but everyone raves over Balto that I'm worried I'm making a mistake switching. Any thoughts? If Vivid is cheaper, easier, better antifouling (less diving req'd), and nearly as fast... it would seem to make more sense to use for all but the most serious racers.

#27 jetfuel

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 11:02 PM

What does everyone think of TriLux white? Anyone else used it ?

#28 Barley

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:20 PM

I am bumping this thread forward, to see if anyone has hard data on what is the "fastest" bottom paint available. Its been a few years since I looked at this thread. I am finally going to put on bottom paint. Currently wet sailing a durepox epoxy bottom and its killing my wallet keeping it clean.

So I ask the same question. Has anybody got first hand hard data on what bottom paint is faster. Has anybody used both Baltoplate and Vivid and noticed a real difference. Not "It feels faster" , someone who change from one to the other, or any paint, and can say X paint is Y faster.

#29 Kaptainkriz

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:51 PM

When I used to have my Capri 30 I put Vivid over Balto after sanding to 100. It stuck very well and I had no issues. YMMV.

#30 Trendsetter

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:52 AM

All things being equal in application of bottom paints I would put everything I own on there being less then .00000000001% in the paints the day they go in the water performance wise.

Now long terms weeks and months down the road vivid will start to wear down as its an ablative and it will not be as smooth and in turn will be slower

Trinidad is an awesome hard paint and burnishes out great and has incredible anti fowling property and easy to clean. And stays nice and smooth

Baltoplate burnishes out nice as well. It has ZERO anti fouling properties. So growth happens quick but when you clean it the bottom still stays smooth

If it was my boat and my money and it lived in the water 80-90% of the time I would start with a clean slate and use inter sleek. It is good for 10 years and requires zero burnishing after application. It is a green paint in that there are no biocides and nothing can stick to it. You don't have to dive the boat weekly just the day before the regatta even ifit has been a month the stuff slides right off

But what do I know I'm just a bottom paint guy for a living

#31 Flyer32445

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

i removed vivid from two boats and both are baltoplate, wet sanded to 600 grit. one was sprayed the other rolled. They are cleaned once a week, no fowling issues have be using them like this for 4 years. Light 600 grit sand int he spring prior to launch and it shines. boats are in newport RI

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#32 GCADDY

GCADDY

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:22 PM

If I had to do it again, I would have stayed with baltoplate. Vivid stayed on but is hard to keep clean. This year was a pretty bad year in the Hudson for fouling. The vivid had to be wiped quite frequently. Not much left this fall. Still had some barnacles on the bottom of keel. With baltoplate at least I still had paint on bottom come Halloween.
Just my 2 cents.






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