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Keep A Close Watch on The Big Cheese


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#801 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 02:35 AM

Building on terekihi's idea, using the bitmaps Peelman posted of the plan drawing. I software traced the image and imported it into CAD. Then assuming the square pads in the building are to support the amas, I used that distance (guesstimated from Schnappi's info and using CAD for analysis) to scale the drawing so the beam matches the pads. This will give a LWL that is proportional to the bitmap Peelman posted.

Analysis comes to...

Beam = 75 feet
LWL = 115 feet


In the attached drawings, the trace includes the perimeter nets, trampolines and bowsprit, which extend beyond the edge of the building. All of these items, I suspect, can be added later after it emerges from the tent.

Attached is a PDF version too


BINGO!!!!

Awesome work SAAC team :-)

#802 brian weslake

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 02:58 AM

BINGO!!!!

Awesome work SAAC team :-)


So now that it looks like the Alinghi boat really is 115' on the WL, the question is whether BMWO have lengthened the amas of DZ to match. Is this the reason we are seeing new floats coming out of Anacortes?

#803 The Advocate

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 03:12 AM

Considering there are Kiwi's involved;

"or the hookers on the corner" :blink:


you think there'd be WA girls working there?

Ah, that would explain where they all are then, I was wondering about that. :P

#804 The Advocate

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 03:14 AM

Not sure if I am on the right track, but this appear to be consistant with what is in the background and about the right angle of the entry into Core.


Attached File  Core.jpg   42.4K   67 downloads

#805 mo fuzz

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:06 AM

This is the site guys. It is the Swiss Rosetta Stone.

Schnappi schnapped it, in an incredibly perfect moment. "Instrumental in advancing modern understanding"? Damn right :)

Wow


Absolutely. Thanks for your perserverance Stinger and to Schnappi for indulging team SAAC!!

Hey this internet thingy is pretty cool! I gotta tell my friends! ^_^

#806 Schnappi

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:20 AM

FWIW, I was standing about here:

Attached Files



#807 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:21 AM

FWIW, I was standing about here:

Thank you!!

#808 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:26 AM

Any other shots that you have, that can help nail the building's dimensions, would be great to have too. Post away.

Having the overall dimensions will enable us to figure the wall panel widths, and then position the corner jacks and the Y with accuracy.

Mo's CAD model may be close, but we can make this even tighter.

Thank God you were there before the shell went up, it may even have happened today and we'd have been completely in the dark about all this floor geometry detail.

#809 The Advocate

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:29 AM

FWIW, I was standing about here:

Nice job Schnappi, Stringray!

#810 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 05:45 AM

I just posted a new one from Ross from ACV in this thread

http://forums.sailin...p...t&p=2232660

Ross has some more titbits for us on Core & mentions the SAAC Intel Team

"Rabid AC fans, whose fingers are continuously on the pulse, thanks in large part to an extraordinary online network, AC Anarchy, are detecting boat building and assembling energy in amazing places like Anacortes and Villeneuve. "


"Boat parts are being delivered at midnight in Anacortes. An amazing structure is being erected in a parking lot in Villeneuve that suggests to experienced sailors and boat builders that a vessel curiously like an extremely lengthy catamaran is soon to be erected there."

#811 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:07 AM

I was really suprised when I found out he does testing at the National Research Council of Canada too.



Yep, Alinghi test their hulls in tanks in St Johns', Newfoundland

#812 nobody

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:02 AM

I wonder if the alinghi folk are reading this thread in amusement or horror......

#813 Blackburn

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:09 AM

A 'LeBlackzilla' would be very much (!) stiffer and lighter if one designed it from the inception as a boat which never needs to be disassembled.
Beam seats etc. Why bother with them ? Build the entire platform for maximum rigidity and minimum weight.

Why? Because the thing needs to be moved from Switzerland to at least the Mediterranean.
If its a 115' LWL Cookoo-Clockbeast then helicoptering like they did with Alinghi Black would surely be the only way to move it in one piece & probably be a rather big risk to take.
Much easier to put it all together, prove you did so in Switzerland, then truck the bits to somewhere on the Med for final assembly (which could be a permanent bond)



You couldn't do all that much in the way of 'permanent bonding' outside Switzerland, before objections would be heard.

A completely integrated, one-piece design for the platform (hulls and beams) might offer such advantages in strength and weight, and simplification of the cabling/central pod issues, as to make more conventional demountable concepts uninteresting.

They enjoy the spectacle of seeing their boats helicoptered, and this would be occasion to do it on a grander scale, befitting the occasion. Fore and aft arrangement with two choppers, or more, would look cool as it passed over Geneva.

But the rig, rudders etc. would in this event be shipped separately - it would seem like too much bravado, otherwise.

#814 Boardertje

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:28 AM

Building on terekihi's idea, using the bitmaps Peelman posted of the plan drawing. I software traced the image and imported it into CAD. Then assuming the square pads in the building are to support the amas, I used that distance (guesstimated from Schnappi's info and using CAD for analysis) to scale the drawing so the beam matches the pads. This will give a LWL that is proportional to the bitmap Peelman posted.

Analysis comes to...

Beam = 75 feet
LWL = 115 feet


In the attached drawings, the trace includes the perimeter nets, trampolines and bowsprit, which extend beyond the edge of the building. All of these items, I suspect, can be added later after it emerges from the tent.

Attached is a PDF version too


Interesting... but where do you put the second mast you require if you go up to 115 feet?

#815 Elf*---

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:31 AM

Building on terekihi's idea, using the bitmaps Peelman posted of the plan drawing. I software traced the image and imported it into CAD. Then assuming the square pads in the building are to support the amas, I used that distance (guesstimated from Schnappi's info and using CAD for analysis) to scale the drawing so the beam matches the pads. This will give a LWL that is proportional to the bitmap Peelman posted.

Analysis comes to...

Beam = 75 feet
LWL = 115 feet


In the attached drawings, the trace includes the perimeter nets, trampolines and bowsprit, which extend beyond the edge of the building. All of these items, I suspect, can be added later after it emerges from the tent.

Attached is a PDF version too


Interesting... but where do you put the second mast you require if you go up to 115 feet?

"Two masts" is the new "having"
:lol:

#816 nobody

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:07 AM

They enjoy the spectacle of seeing their boats helicoptered, and this would be occasion to do it on a grander scale, befitting the occasion. Fore and aft arrangement with two choppers, or more, would look cool as it passed over Geneva.

I don't think it is safe or practical to do a double helicopter lift. I would also suspect that it is well within the capacity to do a single lift.

#817 The Advocate

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:18 AM

Chinook will carry 14 000 Kg, surely that would lift it and then some.

#818 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:23 PM

Just another nice closeup of the Circus Tent its surroundings.

It is from a beauty that Schnappi sent me (thanks for the gazillion plus oneth time) - a huge 4Mb panorama of 3 photos stitched together.

Attached File  CircusTentCloseup_1.JPG   214.57K   71 downloads

#819 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:26 PM

From a lurker, nice lay lines all figured out:

Attached File  LayLines.jpg   345.6K   74 downloads

#820 TpaBayFlyFisher

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:31 PM

Ketch...........

#821 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:32 PM

I don't think it is safe or practical to do a double helicopter lift. I would also suspect that it is well within the capacity to do a single lift.


You can say that again.

Two helios?

No thanks!

#822 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:35 PM

Can a Swiss/German/French speaking Anarchist call Directory Service and get the Tel. number for the sausage place (Suter)?

Call them and ask if this the Alinghi tent?

People living/working this close are bound to know what is going in that tent.

#823 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:36 PM

Can a Swiss/German/French speaking Anarchist call Directory Service and get the Tel. number for the sausage place (Suter)?

Call them and ask if this the Alinghi tent?

People living/working this close are bound to know what is going in that tent.


Or the MAGAS people on the ground floor across the street?

#824 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 06:38 PM

Chinook will carry 14 000 Kg, surely that would lift it and then some.


The sight of a Chinook lifting the DOG-BOAT out of there would answer critics set to argue it was NOT built/assembled in Switzerland.

Because of their demonstrated fondness for helios I'm betting will be the way.

#825 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:06 PM

Chinook will carry 14 000 Kg, surely that would lift it and then some.


The sight of a Chinook lifting the DOG-BOAT out of there would answer critics set to argue it was NOT built/assembled in Switzerland.

Because of their demonstrated fondness for helios I'm betting will be the way.



As a critic, it would be better if they went sailing before they helio'ed to prove it was built/assembled in Switzerland.

Any of our AC history guru's know if any DoG boats have never been sailed in their home waters before a DoG?

#826 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 07:36 PM

Schnappi ... are you still on duty?

Let us get back to important things.

What is happening now?

#827 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:51 PM

From a lurker, nice lay lines all figured out:

Attached File  LayLines.jpg   345.6K   74 downloads

Transposed onto the Google 1999ish Sat map:

Attached File  GOOGLE_TRANSPOSITION.jpg   224.53K   40 downloads

Unfortunately the scale is cropped off but this looks extremely accurate, length-wise, position-wise.

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

#828 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:07 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?

#829 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:18 PM

Does anyone know if the Villeneuve walls and roof are on yet?

They will move the bits in under cover of darkness.

Schnappi, do you have a night vision set-up?


And Stingray, what time is the next satellite fly-over?

#830 Hastings

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:23 PM

Just another nice closeup of the Circus Tent its surroundings.

Attached File  CircusTentCloseup_1.JPG   214.57K   71 downloads


Stinger ... you see the apartment across the street - with 4 apartments in the horizontal plane.

And three in the vertical - which what looks like parking on the ground floor.

For the surveillance equipment, which should we rent?

I say the "top left" one.

Microphones, cameras etc up there should do the trick, n'est pas?

#831 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:24 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?


If you got a overheard or angle down, maybe pick a car you know the length of. Then whats left in the stall they are in & you should your yardstick. for the width.

#832 brian weslake

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:28 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?



My guess is that the square pads will come out at about 90' centre to centre, something we could probably have assumed from the start.

The length of the shed also gives a lot of space to fit a 90' long boat, I'd say this pretty well confirms that CZ is 115' or more long.

#833 mo fuzz

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:29 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?


The trick is determining the width of the building. There was that shot of the side with cars in the adjacent parking lot. Can we use those cars as a reference?

I wont be back to my CAD program till monday. But the AutoCAD file is in an earlier post if someone wants to have a go.

#834 mo fuzz

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:33 PM

This one. Determine the make and model, then the size, of some of these cars. Better yet, is there a "standard" parking stall size in cheezeland?

Both of those might help determining the building width.

Attached File  513607468_jdKwy_O.jpg   190.75K   48 downloads

#835 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:35 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?

Crude, I know, but still - it works out perfectly:

Slabs are precisely 3m long, and presumably 3x3 square.

Attached File  SlabDimension_1.JPG   45.94K   25 downloads

(Think about that scale, 10'x10' - this place is B I G)

#836 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:40 PM

Just another nice closeup of the Circus Tent its surroundings.

Attached File  CircusTentCloseup_1.JPG   214.57K   71 downloads


Stinger ... you see the apartment across the street - with 4 apartments in the horizontal plane.

And three in the vertical - which what looks like parking on the ground floor.

For the surveillance equipment, which should we rent?

I say the "top left" one.

Microphones, cameras etc up there should do the trick, n'est pas?


Just to humor the idea.. The big door is on the right (north, let's call it) and so we will want a clear line of sight to that.

#837 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 09:51 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads

#838 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:04 PM

Done making apologies.. but it works out perfectly again?

Attached File  Slab1Offset_East_West.JPG   54.99K   17 downloads

#839 PeterHuston

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:08 PM

Just another nice closeup of the Circus Tent its surroundings.

Attached File  CircusTentCloseup_1.JPG   214.57K   71 downloads


Stinger ... you see the apartment across the street - with 4 apartments in the horizontal plane.

And three in the vertical - which what looks like parking on the ground floor.

For the surveillance equipment, which should we rent?

I say the "top left" one.

Microphones, cameras etc up there should do the trick, n'est pas?



Might want to consider this little outfit too for spy work...

http://www.geoeye.com/CorpSite/

#840 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:08 PM

So we have
Offsets: (2*2m) = 4m
Slabs to center = (2*1.5m) = 3m
Total: 7m

Width between slab centers= (26.5m - 7m) = 19.5m = ~64' Beam?

#841 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:11 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads



86 feet wide & plenty of room for theirr 75 wide CZ

Going to be really tough even w/ vaseline to get it out that door. Do we have someone fimilar w/ these buildings & know if they can remove the front wall?

#842 eric e

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:17 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads


in the 1st photo under the suter sign is a purple mercedes a-class, 3,838mm long

using that i get a length of the building of about 55mtrs...perhaps not so accurate

but also from that pic it looks like the length is about 16 sections of the outside fence

which is interesting as the 2nd pic it looks like the width is around 8 sections of the red based fence

most of these style of buildings are modular, so having a width of 50% of it's length makes perfect sense

so if it's 44 mtrs long, it's probably 22mtrs wide

if it 50mtrs long, it's probably 25mtrs wide

#843 pjh

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:19 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads

Because of the angle, your width will be too wide just using proportions. eric e is probably right with his estimate of 22m

#844 NAMT

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:19 PM

I think this belonged with that pic: The building is approx. 143-145 feet long

Let's call it 145', because it's very close, and that equates to a nice round 44m, which gives us precisely 5.5m per section, lengthwise.

We still don't know the exact width. And it will take some careful thinking, maybe some trig.

I don't have any CAD s/w on this laptop, can anyone draw it and divvy that 44m up into 8 sections and post it, at 28m wide for the time being?

It will be useful in positioning the Y and the 4 anchor squares.

Mo - Or Perhaps you already did this with accuracy?

Crude, I know, but still - it works out perfectly:

Slabs are precisely 3m long, and presumably 3x3 square.

Attached File  SlabDimension_1.JPG   45.94K   25 downloads

(Think about that scale, 10'x10' - this place is B I G)




Have I missed an earlier post re the containers?
Are they international standard size containers 40' x 8' (for reference measurements)?

#845 eric e

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:25 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads


in the 1st photo under the suter sign is a purple mercedes a-class, 3,838mm long

using that i get a length of the building of about 55mtrs...perhaps not so accurate

but also from that pic it looks like the length is about 16 sections of the outside fence

which is interesting as the 2nd pic it looks like the width is around 8 sections of the red based fence

most of these style of buildings are modular, so having a width of 50% of it's length makes perfect sense

so if it's 44 mtrs long, it's probably 22mtrs wide

if it 50mtrs long, it's probably 25mtrs wide

but that would mean it is an "off the shelf shed" and only mean that the cat is smaller than that
difficult to make guesses about size unless it is a custom shed

#846 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:27 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads

Because of the angle, your width will be too wide just using proportions. eric e is probably right with his estimate of 22m

But if there is error due to that affect, then the building would be more wide, not less.

I intentionally chose the rearmost slab, the and second-to-last column back, to try minimize the effect. But I agree it is there to some degree.. Although it's probably not terribly big. Those items are well over 150' away, so the field is not too, too wide?

edit: oops, I take that back. Yes, it would be less wide (doh!) - thank you.

edit2: wait a second... wasn't I right the first time? :blink: The 24mm increments from the slab would account for increasing amounts of width as you move left?

#847 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:30 PM

Have I missed an earlier post re the containers?
Are they international standard size containers 40' x 8' (for reference measurements)?

Nice, didn't think of that. I bet they are.

#848 eric e

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:43 PM

in the 1st side on photo the white van near the left back corner appears to be a toyota hiace, but there are so many versions...

think you'd learn more about the size of the cat by focusing on the size and relative positions of the concrete jack blocks, you'd think they would tell you at least the width of the cat

from 1st pic again if the shed is a standard 2 to 1 length it would appear from the concrete slabs that they got the narrowest shed that would go over the cat and any extra length was a bonus

of course it could be that it needs to be so long for that giant D35 bowsprit/pod

#849 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:46 PM

Crude, but it once again produced a very nice round number.

Attached File  TentWidth_1.JPG   127.09K   60 downloads

Because of the angle, your width will be too wide just using proportions. eric e is probably right with his estimate of 22m

But if there is error due to that affect, then the building would be more wide, not less.

I intentionally chose the rearmost slab, the and second-to-last column back, to try minimize the effect. But I agree it is there to some degree.. Although it's probably not terribly big. Those items are well over 150' away, so the field is not too, too wide?

edit: oops, I take that back. Yes, it would be less wide (doh!) - thank you.

edit2: wait a second... wasn't I right the first time? :blink: The 24mm increments from the slab would account for increasing amounts of width as you move left?

F*ck, you were right. Less wide is correct.. time to take a break..

#850 Peelman

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:46 PM

Richard just up w/ SAAC mentioned

America's Cup - Off the Record - 17 April: The tent goes up

http://www.sail-worl...t-goes-up/55901

The tent goes up:

On Sailing Anarchy the sleuths have pin pointed some new activity at the Decision building facility in Villeneuve, Switzerland.

What is believed to be an an assembly tent is being constructed behind the factory, and is expected to be used for the assembly of the Alinghi multihull from constructed components. This is the first public milestone in the construction phase of the Alinghi Defender.

With further deduction and scaling, the SA design team have concluded that the dimensions of the Alinghi multihull are 115ft long by 75ft wide (compared to the 90ft by 90ft Challenger).

Further by linking to other Swiss multihull design sites, they have dropped these dimensions and expected design features and come up with a couple of CAD drawings of how the Defender could look.

Click here to read the full thread (currently running to 17 pages!)

To see a photo of the tent under construction click here

Quite how the boat will transported to Valencia remains to be seen. By helicopter is probably not an option, meaning that the boat will have to be disassembled for the trek through the Swiss Alps to Spain, or the nearest port, before being barged to Valencia.

While it is possible to deduce launch dates etc from the time the giant multihull enters the tent (based on timeframes taken by the BMW Oracle building team to go through the same phase, the BOR90 was built alongside the water in Anacortes - so full and final assembly of the Challenger was possible - which is not believed to be the case with the Swiss response.

#851 writing-moment

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:49 PM

in the 1st photo under the suter sign is a purple mercedes a-class, 3,838mm long

using that i get a length of the building of about 55mtrs...perhaps not so accurate


You have to compensate for the foreshortening. Even if the two objects are slightly different in distance from the viewer, the implied dimensions can be off significantly. Even at significant viewing distances and even at what looks like a head-on orthographic perspective.

The portable tents are very standard modules of depth and width, depth module is 5m, width proportions depend on the roof system but end panels are usually 5m, too, and the roof systems fit these. These sort of tents are also used in the US, despite the metric module. 98.42' x 131.23' is probably very accurate centerline to centerline. Clear span and overall differing slightly. But depth/width at 2:1 is not particularly true. You can keep adding length in 5m increments. I confirmed this with a tent industry professional last fall (you can guess what in regard to). (Width only goes in certain jumps, about 130' or about 160' clear being the largest, I can't remember)

Mo's CAD drawing is probably spot on in that respect, so having it spit out a 115' length is intriguing (based on the square pads being o/c for each ama).

#852 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:49 PM

While it is possible to deduce launch dates etc from the time the giant multihull enters the tent (based on timeframes taken by the BMW Oracle building team to go through the same phase, the BOR90 was built alongside the water in Anacortes - so full and final assembly of the Challenger was possible - which is not believed to be the case with the Swiss response.

Nice fun there by RG, recognizing us all.

But he got it all screwed up again. As we here all know, the timeline he should be going by is actually this one. But delayed by a year of appeals..

Attached File  GraphicJoke.jpg   235.51K   74 downloads

#853 eric e

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:51 PM

from the size of the a-class benz i'm getting 3247mm for 1 side of the concrete square? slabs

which is giving me 20.131 mtrs wide cat if the blocks are centered under the hulls

#854 pjh

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:20 PM



Beam = 75 feet
LWL = 115 feet


In the attached drawings, the trace includes the perimeter nets, trampolines and bowsprit, which extend beyond the edge of the building. All of these items, I suspect, can be added later after it emerges from the tent.

Attached is a PDF version too


Interesting... but where do you put the second mast you require if you go up to 115 feet?

"Two masts" is the new "having" :lol:

I still think the only logical way for a 115' CZ to have two masts is one on each hull, maybe a rigid mast on each hull which would get around the sail making nationality problem.

#855 Stingray

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:24 PM

Stake in the ground:

I think the building is 44m x 30m

The slab centers are 23m apart, ~76' boat beam.

Now: Can anyone prove me wrong? How's that for a challenge??

#856 eric e

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 11:35 PM

from the size of the a-class benz i'm getting 3247mm for 1 side of the concrete square? slabs

which is giving me 20.131 mtrs wide cat if the blocks are centred under the hulls


another calculation is coming out with slabs 18.33mtrs apart centre to centre

another calculation based on the little purple car closest to the end being a mk3 polo, 3715mm, is giving a 23mtr wide shed to house a 20mtr wide cat

#857 mr_ryano

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:25 AM

Still not buying this is a final assembly shed. We ought to be looking in Valencia to see if EB has leased out any land near the bases. If this was my project, I'd want to get sailing ASAP, EB has already indicated a match in Valencia, and there are already facilities & boatbuilders there. Could it be possible that the tent we see is actually for the ama construction and they were holding off until the court decision to start????

Can we track down a build orgin date by calling some of the carbon suppliers and finding the BIG order for CH??

Second thought keeping me up. What's the biggest autoclave in CH? I'd estimate the masts to be in the 130-150 foot range. How do you build them in country? Autoclave multiple sctions and graft them, or vacuum bag a monolithic structure? Can you even bag a mast, or is that not enough pressure to build a quality spar?

#858 edelweis

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:42 AM

... from that pic it looks like the length is about 16 sections of the outside fence


That's what I counted, too.

But, it puzzles me that those fence elements usually measure 3,50m x 2m (compare pic with shipping containers),
and this would give a huge tent...

Attached Files



#859 edelweis

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:09 AM

fence element in front of a shipping container:

Attached Files



#860 heckler

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:32 AM

I still think the only logical way for a 115' CZ to have two masts is one on each hull, maybe a rigid mast on each hull which would get around the sail making nationality problem.


http://www.parlier.o...eau/vue2_gt.jpg

5 or 6 years old.

One on each hull (or two masts, for that matter) is contrary to Peelman's "Why reinvent the wheel?" logic.

h

#861 kali

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:35 AM

Fence element probably 3400 mm -> 3500 mm c/c. Parking space 5000 mm. Still hanging on to 5000 mm module on tent. The last one is the least certain since I can´t find the make..

edelweis, I don´t think that You have the right vanishing point. --EDIT-- having checked it, this really doesn´t matter that much, Your result is in the ballpark.,

#862 pjh

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:07 AM

One on each hull (or two masts, for that matter) is contrary to Peelman's "Why reinvent the wheel?" logic.

If it is 115' it must have two masts under the DoG.

#863 Peelman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:21 AM

I still think the only logical way for a 115' CZ to have two masts is one on each hull, maybe a rigid mast on each hull which would get around the sail making nationality problem.


http://www.parlier.o...eau/vue2_gt.jpg

5 or 6 years old.

One on each hull (or two masts, for that matter) is contrary to Peelman's "Why reinvent the wheel?" logic.

h


Pls read the post again as you missed it.

http://forums.sailin...p...t&p=2231356

It's about what upgrade makes most sense for EB & his team based on their frame of reference. Especially w/ such a short time frame.

#864 eric e

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:41 AM

if the fence sections are 3.5mtr wide then the shed is about 9 sections wide at 31.5mtr, 103ft, and the cat is about 8 sections wide at 28mtr, 90ft

seriously big, the big cheese

#865 Kiwi Spy

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:02 AM

While it is possible to deduce launch dates etc from the time the giant multihull enters the tent (based on timeframes taken by the BMW Oracle building team to go through the same phase, the BOR90 was built alongside the water in Anacortes - so full and final assembly of the Challenger was possible - which is not believed to be the case with the Swiss response.

Nice fun there by RG, recognizing us all.

But he got it all screwed up again. As we here all know, the timeline he should be going by is actually this one. But delayed by a year of appeals..

Attached File  GraphicJoke.jpg   235.51K   74 downloads


The point that is missed in this critical path is that there is a a transport phase, which breaks the assembly phase into two. The problem that Alinghi have is that with this type of boat they have to build the components, assemble, disassemble, transport, reassemble, launch and sea trial. Where for BOR90 it was only build components, assemble, launch and sea trial - a much simpler critical path.

While it is possible to deduce some times from the BOR90 project, because the path is simpler you cannot cross relate.

Further because of the requirement for construction in the country of origin, it may not be possible to do the degree of assembly that would normally be done at the launch site, while staying within the construction requirements of the DoG. That means they may have to do a full and final assembly and then pull apart (normally with a multihull of this size, the parts would be epoxied together - not possible, here).

It is not possible to transport a boat 75 or 90ft wide by road. The normal way with boats this size is to get them to the nearest point on the sea - which in this case is 280km and then barge them to their final destination for the final fit-out and rig installation. It is quite difficult to do this normally, without having to work within a construction confine imposed by the Deed of Gift. The effect is that more time will be required in the assembly phase than less and will probably require a second tent etc.

I would also doubt that you could get permission to fly a boat like this over populated areas, but i don't know how tough the European aviation rules are in this regard.

While it is quite likely that the Alinghi boat will be 115ft LWL - for this length they will have to be a ketch/yawl under the DoG. The problem with the ketch/yawl is the drag imposed from the second rig is sometimes not offset by the power it generates.

Again this is a greenfield area in multihull design, and certainly the last time we saw this with the two Whitbread ketches/yawls it was a significant issue, as the second rig is operating in disturbed air etc, and the solution was to get the two masts as far apart as possible to improve the efficiency of the second (and hence the move to make Steinlager II longer than Fisher and Paykel, by working the fractional rig as opposed to the masthead rig).

But returning to the original point, the critical path that is stated in the diagram is wrong for a boat built within the Alinghi constraints because it has no mention of the transportation phase and the assembly and dis-assembly issue. Although it may be quite correct for the BOR90 type construction.

The final point is that in doing the OTR series, I did speak to a boat builder with good experience in this area, on the issue of assembly and times etc. The comment was that it depended completely on the design, which was the answer I would have expected. And they wouldn't even make a guess on the time required, which again is pretty obvious given the constraints.

What can be deduced from the above is that Alinghi are probably behind schedule (or certainly are on a tight schedule).

There is probably not a lot of slack time in their project plan leading to a Match on February 2010, should they have some form of mishap during the build or sea trial (like a major rig or structural failure). The boatbuilder we spoke to did say that structural engineering, historically with boats of this size and type was an issue, and that typically they were initially under engineered.

And that as it is the first time that someone has done an exercise of this type (inland build of a DoG multihull) no-one can really say what is right or wrong. Yes, Alinghi have a very competent building team, but I would think that even they would admit that there are easier ways of building a boat of this type and getting her to launch and sail.

RG

#866 Monster Mash

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:25 AM

Posted Image



Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a lttle to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm

#867 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:56 AM

The point that is missed in this critical path is that there is a a transport phase, which breaks the assembly phase into two. The problem that Alinghi have is that with this type of boat they have to build the components, assemble, disassemble, transport, reassemble, launch and sea trial. Where for BOR90 it was only build components, assemble, launch and sea trial - a much simpler critical path.

RG


This post from Richard is very interesting.

Long ago - soon after the litigation got started - I asked Dalts what he thoght of the situation. He had two responses - which have turned out to be prophetic.

1. The litigation iks going to slow everything down and create big problems for the rest of us.

2. It is a "big ask" to expect Alinghi to build a big multihull in Switzerland without upsetting the DOG rules.,

Yea brother !

#868 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:02 AM

Posted Image



Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a lttle to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm



Yes, could be a set up. And it is rebar.

But consider this. EB is in big shit. Why?

He is a pariah. He lost in court. UBS look like bigtime crooks. He was badly humiliated in the LV-P (BB was forced to shake hands with GD - see the looks on the faces!!). Now he is running behind schedule with his DOG-Project. Stingray and his spy mates are all over him. Butterworth continues being a buffoon.

So, they are making slip-ups.

Maybe they are laughing their heads off because this is a sausage plant. Not a boat building project.

But my point is this.

There are cracks in the Alinghi facade.

They are beatable !


#869 MrD

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:15 AM

If you have two masts. Do you need to use them? I mean in the traditional sense? Can you have them right next to each other? Maybe supporting each other? Like a triangle?

#870 brian weslake

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:30 AM

Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a lttle to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm


except its not white paint, its sections of reinforced concrete. Just like the shot in the DZ II thread, this one looks like the real deal.

#871 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 01:42 PM

But returning to the original point, the critical path that is stated in the diagram is wrong for a boat built within the Alinghi constraints because it has no mention of the transportation phase and the assembly and dis-assembly issue. Although it may be quite correct for the BOR90 type construction.

Yes, and the diagram was named "GraphicJoke" - was only ribbing when I wrote "But he got it all screwed up.. should have gone by this diagram" and that should have been made clear, with a wink.

Thanks for the informative ideas in the post, Richard, keep it up!

#872 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:16 PM

Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a little to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm

Surprising as it seems, this is the real deal!

It is possible that some at Alinghi feel a degree of embarrassment over getting exposed like this. They have done a very good job of secrecy up to now, despite being forced by circumstance to ship big pieces all over the place. So this discovery by us very likely comes as a bit of a shock.

If upper management (or whoever else cares about it) were following here, and I know for a fact that some of the Alinghi boat builders definitely have been following, then they'd know how closely some of us were staring at maps, photos, news, business reports, land use zones, plot maps, even paragliding videos. But until just 48 hours ago, we had ~no~ photograph of this little area newer than September '08. And even that one photo was taken from waaay away, and was not at all focused on the interesting bits! And come to find, the assembly building didn't even exist until this week!

The 17 freaking pages of discussion here, a lot of it painfully stupid and seemingly futile, did in the end accomplish the mission. Several people considered going to Villeneuve. And after the court decision happened, and it did come down the way Jocecito predicted it, and there was sudden action on the Villeneuve front just as Hastings predicted in starting the thread, well time became more critical for Alinghi, and Villeneuve became more critical for us :)

Amazingly, two people visited this week on the same day. I posted shots of the mystery tent the first person targeted, which is what I wanted them to target after getting a brief description of it a couple days earlier; but it quickly became clear from those shots that the 25x80 was just not it. It was all about Bombardier gear. Meanwhile, just 200m north along the same street, Schnappi, with almost unbelievably great timing, came right upon this site and ~ knew instantly ~ what it was. Absofuckinglootly nailed it!

That Y you are going on about is just spectacular, in the larger puzzle. It is the final piece. At the heart of it all. Peelman finding that Seahorse article with the photo of Le Black from straight above, and Mo scaling it onto that Y, is the shit!!!

I'm telling you, without any doubt: THIS IS DEFINITELY IT!

We didn't really answer "Where Is Cheezilla" with any specificity. What we did answer, was much better. Where WILL Cheezilla be?

We also, through such great luck with the timing, can make a pretty fucking educated guess about CZ's proportions, even by just those floor details. I bet it already has a cover hiding them, it was ~perfect~ timing.

Embarrassing, that a big part of the CZ secret got blown up so spectacularly? Yes, probably. Those NDA's are there for a reason.

But embarrassing for what it tells us, about what they are building? Hell no. It's hard to sense the space without standing there as Schnappi did, pacing it off, just shnapping shots at will. But it is clean, and big, and...

This boat is going to be really spectacular!

#873 The Advocate

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:17 PM

Posted Image



Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a lttle to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm



Yes, could be a set up. And it is rebar.

But consider this. EB is in big shit. Why?

He is a pariah. He lost in court. UBS look like bigtime crooks. He was badly humiliated in the LV-P (BB was forced to shake hands with GD - see the looks on the faces!!). Now he is running behind schedule with his DOG-Project. Stingray and his spy mates are all over him. Butterworth continues being a buffoon.

So, they are making slip-ups.

Maybe they are laughing their heads off because this is a sausage plant. Not a boat building project.

But my point is this.

There are cracks in the Alinghi facade.

They are beatable !


Hastings.

Love you to death man, but sometimes you talk crap. What the fuck does UBS have to do with it? They are just a sponsor. There is no other implied or otherwise conection. Let it go and focus on the important.

#874 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:29 PM



But my point is this.

There are cracks in the Alinghi facade.

They are beatable !


Hastings.

Love you to death man, but sometimes you talk crap. What the fuck does UBS have to do with it? They are just a sponsor. There is no other implied or otherwise conection. Let it go and focus on the important.


What is impressive to me is that even without sponsorship, EB is stepping up to the plate, big-time. He is following through in the wake of that court decision. They are going to assemble this monster. He is laying down serious freaking wads of cash. It is truly great stuff, what is going on now. You can argue about everything that has led up to it, but looking forward this is going to be exceedingly cool.

He is not behaving like he is beatable. He is behaving like an Americas Cup Defender. He will be hard to beat.

#875 The Advocate

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:33 PM

His ego said, "Ernesto, you must build it now, you have fucked yourself in all other DoG avenues, so go build it, they will come.

#876 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:37 PM

.. Meanwhile, just 200m north along the same street, Schnappi, with almost unbelievably great timing, came right upon this site and ~ knew instantly ~ what it was. Absofuckinglootly nailed it!

An anecdote that should be mentioned.. Schnappi did not go up into the mountain side vineyard to survey the town, to decide where to go and focus on. It was vise versa. He saw the site, knew instantly what it was, did the site shots first, and then also went to the effort of hiking up there (and it's actually quite steep), to get the panoramic views, plus the closeup down into town, with incredibly sharp focus onto the tent. I could prove that is the sequence, but perhaps he will chime in to agree, or else correct me if he can :)

Anyway, that just makes it even more "heroic." Without those shots from the vineyard, we would not 'set the scene' like this and we would not have those 'overhead' shots to nail the building length by. Which, as I have mentioned, is 44m...

#877 heckler

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:40 PM

Posted Image



Is it possible we're being set up? For sure the tent is real and aparently some assembly will be going on but the white painted Y is just a lttle to much info in this cloak and dagger exercise. Why not wait till the tent is finished to paint the Y ? surely a couple of chalk marks or similar would accomplish the same without giving away the possible dimensions of CheeseZilla to prying eyes. I don't think those are embedded bolts , looks like rebar or similar to me. Why not wait till the tent is up to fab the level pads? Just a little to much information I think.
Just a thought.
mm



Yes, could be a set up. And it is rebar.

But consider this. EB is in big shit. Why?

He is a pariah. He lost in court. UBS look like bigtime crooks. He was badly humiliated in the LV-P (BB was forced to shake hands with GD - see the looks on the faces!!). Now he is running behind schedule with his DOG-Project. Stingray and his spy mates are all over him. Butterworth continues being a buffoon.

So, they are making slip-ups.

Maybe they are laughing their heads off because this is a sausage plant. Not a boat building project.

But my point is this.

There are cracks in the Alinghi facade.

They are beatable !


I agree that MM has a strong point. What is most interesting about the Cup to me right now is what the public doesn't know and all the things we may never know. After what I think we will see as a brilliant cloaking job by Alinghi (there has been at least one boat designed, the parts constructed, we have no evidence, only weak rumor), why would this partially built tent with obviously leading clues (the concrete and it's layout) be left out in the open, unguarded, for way longer than is necessary? Maybe at this point they don't care, they've committed to a path and BMWO is pinned to DoGzilla. Maybe this is just a ruse for short money and distracting joke (at this forum's expense especially).

I humbly and politely disagree with Hastings on this post. While EB is mostly a pariah on this site especially, he is not disliked everywhere. The AC, and I do not want to start a fight here, is a business. While it is arguably the most important sporting trophy in the world, it is also the ultimate professional sporting event (dollars per minute). The AC is also not a local club or fleet, where in an ideal world, you socialize with your good friends and play well with others; just as happy that your buddy saw the shift, port tacked the fleet and finished with a horizon job than if you'd won yourself. The only thing that matters to anyone competitively involved in this contest is to win the Cup, period. And then control the Cup and all that it controls.

UBS looks like big time crooks, yes. The whole financial world, generally, look like big time crooks at the moment. In the end, toward the end, EB doesn't need a sponsor. That fact considered has to jog ones perspective. EB's reality is unimaginably rare. Only we care about UBS.

As an aside. Another thing that intrigues me is that LE has challenged EB to a multihull match. These are two of the largest egos not just in this sport but in this world. Of all the AC players, EB is the multi aficionado. For LE to whip out and sail around his tri, is a challenge in the truest sense.

I don't believe EB was humiliated; they lost the LV-P and wanted to win. That regatta was no more important than the J24 regatta down the street.

I believe we will find that he is not behind schedule at all; that he has a very calculated program with all the bases covered. He has a team of people that get payed very well to do Nothing But analyze and plan for every possible scenario. I believe we will find that while he is technically defending the Cup, he is absolutely on the offensive. He is calculating and positioning and getting ready to attack.

Butterball? BFD. This is going to have little to do with him soon (I think).

In the end, everyone will have made a mistake (in hindsight CNEV should have had a member with a boat and a race; that mistake won't be made again) but we are headed to a brilliant multihull match race (the technological sailboat race of our lifetime, IMO) and even if they make an atempt at creating a mutual consent, single challenger event, EB ultimately controls the venue and therefor the velocity.

And that is a distinct advantage.

h

#878 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 02:59 PM

Anyone know, or want to try find out, if there is a news/traffic/weather type radio station for this area? Because there's going to be some major delays and road closures when they start moving stuff around Villeneuve..

Here is one list but I have no idea the character of them and Lausanne looks to be the closest, on this list.

#879 heckler

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:01 PM

I apologize that some of the above is redundant by the time I posted. I am much slower than you pros and more than slightly forum inept.

h

#880 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:15 PM

I apologize that some of the above is redundant by the time I posted. I am much slower than you pros and more than slightly forum inept.

h

Apologize? That's a great post, enjoyed it.

#881 notallthere

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:19 PM

If you have two masts. Do you need to use them? I mean in the traditional sense? Can you have them right next to each other? Maybe supporting each other? Like a triangle?


115' aqua cat?

#882 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:39 PM

Butterball? BFD. This is going to have little to do with him soon (I think).



I am rushing out the door.

But your BB remark caught my eye.

Can you elaborate?

Is he joining Hamish in the wilderness?

#883 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:41 PM

I humbly and politely disagree with Hastings on this post.



Oh boy, you must be Canadian!!!

Politeness - yes!

Humility - no !

Just go for it.

Great post ... thank you.

#884 Peelman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:45 PM



But my point is this.

There are cracks in the Alinghi facade.

They are beatable !


Hastings.

Love you to death man, but sometimes you talk crap. What the fuck does UBS have to do with it? They are just a sponsor. There is no other implied or otherwise conection. Let it go and focus on the important.


What is impressive to me is that even without sponsorship, EB is stepping up to the plate, big-time. He is following through in the wake of that court decision. They are going to assemble this monster. He is laying down serious freaking wads of cash. It is truly great stuff, what is going on now. You can argue about everything that has led up to it, but looking forward this is going to be exceedingly cool.

He is not behaving like he is beatable. He is behaving like an Americas Cup Defender. He will be hard to beat.


Totally agree w/ you Stinger that EB has been forced to suck it up to be a Americas Cup Defender & spend a lot of his own $.

As I pointed out w/ some of the intel EB has a huge decade + background w/ multi's & all that comes w/ it. He's not in unchartered waters & if it goes DoG he will be the man to beat IMO based on time in the arena.

As much as I have mixed feelings about a DoG like mentioned by the ACGo5 in their letter, I would still say that my greatest concern is seeing some commitments by all parties to agree to protect the Deed so it will not be hijacked after this DoG or MC. Presently there is nothing to stop EB or anyone else from winning a DoG or MC & going back down the Enrievision path & probably back into the NYSC.

#885 Peelman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

Building on terekihi's idea, using the bitmaps Peelman posted of the plan drawing. I software traced the image and imported it into CAD. Then assuming the square pads in the building are to support the amas, I used that distance (guesstimated from Schnappi's info and using CAD for analysis) to scale the drawing so the beam matches the pads. This will give a LWL that is proportional to the bitmap Peelman posted.

Analysis comes to...

Beam = 75 feet
LWL = 115 feet


In the attached drawings, the trace includes the perimeter nets, trampolines and bowsprit, which extend beyond the edge of the building. All of these items, I suspect, can be added later after it emerges from the tent.

Attached is a PDF version too


For the CAD team would it be possible to do 2 mockups based on the Deed measurements below -

"The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line"

It would be interesting to compare the mockups on how they differ on the pad locations if possible.

#886 Peelman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:03 PM

Attached File  Alt_L_hydroptere_ch_graphic_1.jpg   30.78K   6 downloads


Another project EB is involved in is L'Hydroptère.ch

This comes from Alinghi & his association w/ EPFL here

http://alinghi.epfl....ge10238-en.html

#887 heckler

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:05 PM

Butterball? BFD. This is going to have little to do with him soon (I think).



I am rushing out the door.

But your BB remark caught my eye.

Can you elaborate?

Is he joining Hamish in the wilderness?


I apologize, this statement is misleading. I don't know any secrets about the inner workings of Team Alinghi personnel. It was also not meant as a slight towards BB (maybe a little; my personal opinion showing through). His record stands regardless of anyone's opinion of his choices. His abilities as Captain are as, if not more, important than his historical tactical skill. I got caught up

It is only my opinion "(I think)" but:

We are about to see a match, no matter the result, that will be unprecedented. It is, first and foremost, a match of two different multihull design theories. What we know (think) now: a trimaran against a catamaran. I think we will see that these boats, whatever their final iteration, will have taken multihull design and construction light years forward. Literally, aerospace technology. Never has there been this much money and thought spent on a multi, to say nothing of two or three or maybe four.

If one solution is clearly better than the other, BB will just be going for a ride. If they are matched in speed and agility (hooray for us), BB is not a multihull sailor, someone else may be better (more experienced) in the role of tactician. He is also 50 years old; even the greatest have a shelf life, I don't know what his is. But no, I don't think or know that he's hitting the highway; he's been an effective and dedicated employee.

I should have left the sentence out.

h

#888 heckler

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:14 PM

Attached File  Alt_L_hydroptere_ch_graphic_1.jpg   30.78K   6 downloads


Another project EB is involved in is L'Hydroptère.ch

This comes from Alinghi & his association w/ EPFL here

http://alinghi.epfl....ge10238-en.html


This is very deserved vindication for L'Hydroptere. Years of being the crazy guy.


One thing you pointed out the other day, that EB has his fingerprints everywhere, makes me wonder; is it just that EB is interested and therefore involved in any and all things multi? Or is he trying to tie up as much of the talent and the tech as possible? Or both?

h

#889 Peelman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:35 PM

He's been a multi man since the 90's & spending the money to be the man to beat on the Euro lakes. Because of that he has tied up a lot of the talent, resources & made new ones even before he looked at the AC

In this post there is a lot of his history & who's he is connected w/

http://forums.sailin...p...t&p=2231356

Somewhere in this thread I posted links to his boat built by the guys who were involved w/ Conner's cat so EB goes back there into the 90's on the Internet. Here's a short one

http://www.morrellim...?WEBYEP_DI=2003

Looking at EPFL & other associations EB has, he has expanded his sailing networks on all fronts to funnel into any of his multi or mono programs.

I was blown away once I got into my research on how much territory EB has crossed in the world of sailing & it's supporting industries. Definitely the multi DoG is his arena.

#890 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:53 PM

If upper management (or whoever else cares about it) were following here, and I know for a fact that some of the Alinghi boat builders definitely have been following, then they'd know how closely some of us were staring at maps, photos, news, business reports, land use zones, plot maps, even paragliding videos. But until just 48 hours ago, we had ~no~ photograph of this little area newer than September '08. And even that one photo was taken from waaay away, and was not at all focused on the interesting bits! And come to find, the assembly building didn't even exist until this week!

Not that it makes tooo much difference, but someone is telling me that this assembly building has been there "awhile" already.. But much more strangely, they also say "they took the cover off it recently" :blink:

More importantly :) the bulk of the builder force arrives next week.

#891 NAMT

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 06:55 PM

If you have two masts. Do you need to use them? I mean in the traditional sense? Can you have them right next to each other? Maybe supporting each other? Like a triangle?



I have been thinking about two mast questions too. (Is this the best thread for this discussion?)
Having once owned a yawl, but never a ketch or a schooner, I paid attention to rig innovations in ocean racing such as the OSTAR & Whitbread when bigger boats with two masts such as Club Med, Pen Duick & NZ Endeavour were launched.
Two masts could carry more sail, smaller sails were more easily managed, and a range of sail combinations for different conditions was possible.
These were the big advantages over a sloop.

Yet Cheezilla's design may not call for these advantages.
With my very limited knowledge of boat design this may leave only two other reasons for a two masted rig - boat manoeuverability/handling and load/stress requirements.
Have I missed something important & obvious to others?

Of the two, my guess is that manoeuverability may be more important in a DoG match.
Some posts have reported that gybing Godzilla takes time and is a risky manoeuver. She does accelerate very quickly.
Do we know what the minimum wind strength needs to be to get her around a mark?
How easily can Godzilla deal with larger wind shifts? Does anyone know how long a foresail change takes?
Given Cheezilla's design can she afford to give drag race time to Godzilla in return for being nimble around marks & sail change options for different conditions?

I am tending to agree with others here, EB warrants being seen as a very strong Defender. Nothing prior to this point has weakened Alinghi's capabilities to win. I would not be surprised to see Alinghi (no more deprecating boat names from me) become an early favourite.

#892 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:02 PM

I realize how crude this looks, it's the stupid tool I'm using. But I did verify in some quite painstaking detail over an hour most of this, using magnified regions of the image, intense blowups of the Google map, a ruler to the screen, and my trusty RPN HP15C Calc :)

If anyone can disprove any of the theory then please, please do.

Once again, the building came out to 44m x 30m and the beam (assuming center-slab to center-slab) came out to 23.00m, close to 76'.

Attached File  LayLinesMap_2.JPG   230.68K   90 downloads

#893 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:23 PM

I was blown away once I got into my research on how much territory EB has crossed in the world of sailing & it's supporting industries. Definitely the multi DoG is his arena.



And among the reasons for his DOGGEDNESS.

#894 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:24 PM

More importantly :) the bulk of the builder force arrives next week.

Someone else left a message,
--
SR - FWIW - The Alinghi boat went into build starting about November 2007 to my absolutely certain knowledge. Definitely there were guys up there getting sticky in Feb 08. I also know 100% that the build was stopped the day of the appeal court reversal of Cahn's decision. I am not sure exactly when they kicked it off again (could find out but would have to make some calls). The Argentinian guys that headed off there three days ago were offered three or four months tenures.
--

#895 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Not that it makes tooo much difference, but someone is telling me that this assembly building has been there "awhile" already.. But much more strangely, they also say "they took the cover off it recently" :blink:

More importantly :) the bulk of the builder force arrives next week.


If Alinghi have decided DOG-Race 1 is February 8th and there are to be no negotiations on this point they must now get a hurry-on.

Just as BOR reached a point where they showed DZ to the world, Big-Cheese merchants will soon be in a similar situation.

The Y on the ground might be the first sign secrecy is now less important than getting the job done.

The venue must be announced August 8th (just over 3 months from now).

So both sides are committed to their designs.

Do you agree it is now too late to change big variables? There will always be tweaking. But we are now perilously close to the point where big issues must be settled.

The open shed and Y on the ground can be read as follows:

1. A wonderful practical joke which has sent us scrambling and given Alinghi insiders something to laugh about.

2. A slip-up by the defender. A sign of carelessness or cracks in the armour.

3. A sign secrecy no longer matters. We have our DOG theory. They have theres. Let us see which is better. "The task is to win on the water."

#896 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:55 PM

Not that it makes tooo much difference, but someone is telling me that this assembly building has been there "awhile" already.. But much more strangely, they also say "they took the cover off it recently" :blink:

More importantly :) the bulk of the builder force arrives next week.


The open shed and Y on the ground can be read as follows:

1. A wonderful practical joke which has sent us scrambling and given Alinghi insiders something to laugh about.

2. A slip-up by the defender. A sign of carelessness or cracks in the armour.

3. A sign secrecy no longer matters. We have our DOG theory. They have theres. Let us see which is better. "The task is to win on the water."


I discount 1, and 3 is more likely than a slip-up but probably some of both those.

What has me wondering is this one:

4. The tent got uncovered because that is no longer its purpose?

:unsure:

What possible reasons are there, for uncovering it?

#897 NAMT

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:59 PM

The open shed and Y on the ground can be read as follows:
1. A wonderful practical joke which has sent us scrambling and given Alinghi insiders something to laugh about.
2. A slip-up by the defender. A sign of carelessness or cracks in the armour.
3. A sign secrecy no longer matters. We have our DOG theory. They have theres. Let us see which is better. "The task is to win on the water."
[/quote]


Since when did EB:
1) demonstrate a sense of humour publicly or willingness to spend money on humour?
2) EB demonstrate carelessness when building or sailing a boat?
That only leaves one.
In a multiple choice test there must be a number of good distractors (wrong but still plausible answers) to choose from.

How about the following as distractors?
The contract was assigned to the lowest bidder.
He asked his sister to take care of it to ensure secrecy.
He ordered the work but before the French contractor finished he had a new design that needed a different base.
It is a ruse to encourage mistaken mods to Dogzilla, based on certainty that AC SA would be good enough to help him out with the plot.

#898 Stingray

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:01 PM

I realize how crude this looks, it's the stupid tool I'm using. But I did verify in some quite painstaking detail over an hour most of this, using magnified regions of the image, intense blowups of the Google map, a ruler to the screen, and my trusty RPN HP15C Calc :)

If anyone can disprove any of the theory then please, please do.

Once again, the building came out to 44m x 30m and the beam (assuming center-slab to center-slab) came out to 23.00m, close to 76'.

Attached File  LayLinesMap_2.JPG   230.68K   90 downloads

While staring at this, that one roof kept grabbing my attention.. Why on earth would that building have a concave roof??? Weird! It's no wonder there is an access ladder running up the side, it must cause all kinds of problems when the center channel or downspouts block up. Even that much weight in snow or ice would be quite significant.

#899 Hastings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:25 PM

While staring at this, that one roof kept grabbing my attention.. Why on earth would that building have a concave roof??? Weird! It's no wonder there is an access ladder running up the side, it must cause all kinds of problems when the center channel or downspouts block up. Even that much weight in snow or ice would be quite significant.




Yes, very bare minimum diagonal bracing.

Would never get past civic authorities (building inspectors) where snow is a factor.

Or even NZ where bracing against earthquakes can be helpful.

All points to the temporary nature of the structure.

#900 NAMT

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:42 PM

While staring at this, that one roof kept grabbing my attention.. Why on earth would that building have a concave roof??? Weird! It's no wonder there is an access ladder running up the side, it must cause all kinds of problems when the center channel or downspouts block up. Even that much weight in snow or ice would be quite significant.




Yes, very bare minimum diagonal bracing.

Would never get past civic authorities (building inspectors) where snow is a factor.

Or even NZ where bracing against earthquakes can be helpful.

All points to the temporary nature of the structure.


Or,
French contractor, lowest bidder, couldn't read the drawings & installed it upside down




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