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The Roaring Twenties


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#1 Mambo Kings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:00 PM

Circle 1 at CRW is dedicated to 20' sporties with the RC putting the Melges 20, The Laser SB3 and the Viper 640 on the same start line. As we arrived at the starting area, the cheerful PRO of circle 1 announced on the radio that he was naming this race area as "The roaring twenties" and his RC would answer to "Roaring Twenties Race Committee on Channel 69".

It set the tone for a fun day.

So here is a thread for all of us sporty twenties at CRW. What a great first day! I don't think it mattered which class you were sailing, there were grins across the whole fleet.

My first feedback to RC. At first I was a bit suprised to see the M20s and the SB3s start ahead of the Vipers because it meant that our some of our Vipes caught up and had to sail through the other classes but I quickly figured out that it was an well thought out decision in the big breeze. Tacticaly it sometimes paid to gybe quickly to port at the top. So we had 6 sb3s and 6 Melges coming downwind at us. One SB3 gave me a good scare as I was coming upwind. I think a wall of 30+ Vipers coming downwind weaving through the Melges and SB3s coming upwind would have been a more difficult combination.

My second feedback was that the lots of communication was really helpful. 4 races across 3 classes with competitive sailors and not even close to a general recall.

3rd feedback.....is that a circle with these three classes really works well. We are all a fun group. Generaly pretty good sailors with fast boats that sail in a similar way, so we understand the angles of each other and anticipate well.

I was too tired after racing yesterday to catch up and chat to some of the Melges or Laser sailors, but I think we should come over to each others docks and introduce each other.

More later.....the signal gun has just sounded. See you out there.

#2 Mambo Kings

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:08 PM

FYI......

We are going to try and have a Coaches debrief this evening after racing for circle one.

The coaches on the coach boat + some of the top sailors from each class will comment on what was working at what was not working on circle one on the first two days.

All 20' sportys invited. We will ask Meghan if we can use the big screen in the tent for some pics. If not, probably in the seating area outside, near the pool alongside the hotel. Preliminary thought is 6.00pm. But we will pass the word at the docks depending on when we get in.

Folks like Ched Proctor, Ethan Bixby, will share their secrets.

#3 schoonerman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:20 PM

Great Racing on Day one.

Good breeze, kinda felt like home to me. What a great event this Club puts on. Fun party last night and such a great group of folks in the Viper class. I'm impressed by the dedication of the builder, Paul Young, flying out from England just to answer questions and lend a hand. Brian Bennett, the designer, is here snapping shots and taking video. Here's a couple from his flash drive.

Looking forward to another fun, tight-knit day of racing. Lot's of great sailors here.

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#4 schoonerman

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:22 PM

and another (file's are large). I swear I thought they were going to take off :lol:

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#5 Mambo Kings

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:29 AM

Interesting two days of racing so far.

There are some stories to be told from the roaring twenties course.

Friday was a big air day. One Vipe went aground on the way out to the race course, the lady helm got hit by the boom and was rushed off to hospital for 8 stitches on the forehead but was out racing on Saturday. Another Vipe got holed in a collision but an overnight working party of fellow Viper owners got the boat patched and racing again on Saturday.

There were at least two MOBs on Friday. The same guy from a Melges 20 was picked up twice !!! Both times by Vipers. I dont know the full story. Some say he jumped the second time. He was bobbing in the water at the windward mark. The mark patrol boat either didnt see him or couldn't get to him (altho lots of boats were yelling at the patrol boat "There's a guy in the water"), so John Porter who was next to me swept him up over the transom of his Vipe. Someone must have the scoop on how he got there.

Saturday was tactical and fun as predicted. Light in the first race, but really decent sea breeze at the end.

Good chalk talk and debrief by Ethan Bixby, Ched Proctor and Tac Boston after racing on Satuday.

We'll see what today holds. Big drive home tonight for Mambo Kings.

And for those who are interested in the Laser SB3s vs The Melges 20 , who start at the same time. There have been 7 races and by my count an SB3 has won 4 and a Melges 20 has won 3.

#6 Streetwise

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:08 PM

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#7 Streetwise

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:33 PM

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#8 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:48 AM

on 95 north.

great great regatta. In the Vipes so many boats in the mix, very close racing. 18 boats had a top 5 finish !!!!!!!.

more later/

#9 Saltwater Cowboy

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:34 PM

I can add a bit to the story of the Melges 20 sailor who got picked up twice. We were a little bit ahead during the first pickup, beating on starboard, about a boatlength to windward and a bl behind hull 18. The guy seemingly fell out of the Melges on a wipeout, as the Melges just kept wiping out down the racecourse, they couldn't get it under control to drop and turn around. So the guy was bobbing and waving right in front of 18, and those guys plucked him out of the water without missing a beat. I would say we gained maybe 2 bl's from their pickup to their back on the wind and settled in - fantastic job.

What I heard from 18 is when they got to the windward mark, there was a gap to boats behind, the rc powerboat was right there, so the guy waved, rc waved back (what he thought was an acknowledgement), so he jumped in thinking they would come pick him up. They didn't, and then porter (26) came by and plucked him up again.

RC gave 18 and 26 redress.

As others said, the racing on circle 1 was fantastic all weekend. We got a good mix of conditions, steady strong pressure, lighter winds, puffy shifts, and working the currents in both directions. Friday was definitely an all-smiles day. Someone said it at another regatta, racing Vipers on windy days is kind of like going to the water park .... you wait line 30 minutes on the way up for the joy of the 2 minute ride down. We had a new Velocitek speed puck on board, and the last two races were steady 13-15 all the way down. We peaked at 16.9.

I think race 4 on day 1 was a real test for the crews that were new to these boats, Laser and Melges included. Arms sore, legs sore, backs sore, soaking wet, and you really have to work these boats to go fast. I think the Viper fleet was spread out the farthest at the finish in this race.

The racing got more and more challenging as the weekend progressed, particularly on Sunday. The fleet really compressed as the new crews, and crews new to Charleston, started to work things out. Racing was really tight on Sunday.

#10 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:31 PM

I can add a bit to the story of the Melges 20 sailor who got picked up twice. We were a little bit ahead during the first pickup, beating on starboard, about a boatlength to windward and a bl behind hull 18. The guy seemingly fell out of the Melges on a wipeout, as the Melges just kept wiping out down the racecourse, they couldn't get it under control to drop and turn around. So the guy was bobbing and waving right in front of 18, and those guys plucked him out of the water without missing a beat. I would say we gained maybe 2 bl's from their pickup to their back on the wind and settled in - fantastic job.

What I heard from 18 is when they got to the windward mark, there was a gap to boats behind, the rc powerboat was right there, so the guy waved, rc waved back (what he thought was an acknowledgement), so he jumped in thinking they would come pick him up. They didn't, and then porter (26) came by and plucked him up again.

RC gave 18 and 26 redress.

Racing was really tight on Sunday.


So in effect, Dave and Moise (#18) pick up a surplus M20 crew for the upwind leg, and then chuck him overboard "Bermuda fitted dinghy style" at the windward mark. LOL. ;)

I saw the 2nd pick up. It took awhile for the MOB to realize that the rc boat wasn't picking him up. Porter was also very prompt and hauled him over the transom without any fuss. The open transom of the Vipe is ideal for rescuing errant M20 crews. (& Errant Viper crew for that matter)

#11 Will

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:15 PM

What is the story with the M20, USA 119. one dnf and a bunch of dns?

#12 Yard Dog

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:15 PM

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?

#13 Saltwater Cowboy

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 02:56 PM

Will,

One of the M20's broke their rudder. I don't remember the number, but it was probably that one.

#14 Reflex Sailor

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:04 PM

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?


Other than in a "my **** is bigger than yours" debate, the outright relative speed of any one class of these boats as against any other class is totally and utterly irrelevant - the adrenaline factor will not change significantly from one to any other. The one to have is the one with an OD fleet available for you to race in.

#15 apexchaser

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:16 PM

from I-20 Westbound, having just crossed into Texas, towing The Stig (Viper #103) and Animal (Viper #102) on Ultraracer's ultra cool Viper Texas Tow Rig (pictures below).

What an awesome regatta! Thanks to the organizers for putting on a fantastic event. This is definitely going to have to be an annual pilgrimage. It was also great to see a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen since the Viper NAs in Marblehead last year.

Great mix of conditions, including "Baptism by fire" Friday, where we raced a brand new boat with a new crew for the first time in "dogs off chains" breeze (Woo Hoo!), to the lighter but equally fun tactical Saturday, to the breezy wrap-up on Sunday (ouch, my aching muscles!). We felt great that our results kept improving race by race, until we tore a big hole in the spanking new kite in Sunday's first race :( , and then sailed much more conservatively downwind (much to my crew's chagrin) in order to not blow the kite up completely... Oh well. Such is life.

Totally agree with Saltwater Cowboy about the Viper fleet getting tighter and more competitive as the weekend progressed. Mark roundings on Sunday seemed quite a bit more crowded and exciting, and we were all really mixing it up at the starts, which was great fun. Heck, we even had our first general recall of the regatta... :P I LOVE big fleet One Design racing!

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!
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#16 apexchaser

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:20 PM

And a couple more pics of "The Tow Rig":
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#17 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:22 PM

Broken rudder. We sailed by them at the leeward mark as they were putting their outboard motor on the boat. Not sure how it happened. The rudder looked attached securely on the transom and seemed secure. It must have broken below the waterline.

Bummer man, that sucks!

What is the story with the M20, USA 119. one dnf and a bunch of dns?



#18 knuckles

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:40 PM

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!


Stupid question: Where are the masts?

#19 apexchaser

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:50 PM

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!


Stupid question: Where are the masts?


:P Not a stupid question:

The carbon mast on the viper comes in two pieces, with an inner sleeve to slide the two halves together. So we simply took our masts apart for travel, with all the halyards still in them, and folded them in half like you would do with shock-corded tent poles. In the picture above showing the transom of the boats, you can see my mast on the starboard side of the boat, laying in the cockpit, with the front part of the bundle tucked under the foredeck. My sails, boom, rudder, fenders, etc. are all in there as well. So all the equipment in the boat fits under the foredeck & in the cockpit for travel.

You can also see Ultraracer's mast just peeking out from the transom of his boat, up on top of the truck.

#20 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:57 PM

Keep in mind that some of the "delta" this weekend was due to large wind shifts early in the race. I would factor that into the discussion. The Vipers could certainly read the course by watching our fleet progress up the leg 5 min ahead of them. This was an advantage for sure.

To my eye, Vipers were gaining between 2 to 4 minutes per race (4 miles appx). The first race (Friday) in particular had a massive pressure line and the Vipers caught the M20/SB3 fleet almost immediately. In most races the lead M20 / SB3 was roughly 3 min ahead of the lead Viper. So I would say 20 - 25 seconds per mile?

Downwind, when Vipers did catch us (in an SB3), they were slightly faster, slightly deeper. Upwind speed looked pretty close but we never sailed upwind during a race with a Viper. The Vipers largest advantage was in marginal planning conditions or 8 - 12 kts or higher. I should mention that the M20's were also clearly quicker in all conditions downwind as well. With the SB3's much larger sail plan we could hang in there a little better at times but it was a slow losing battle boat for boat. The only exception was in huge breeze were we had no trouble staying in control and perhaps gained from time to time.

The 3 boats are very close upwind considering the large design differences. Overall, It was a real surprise to me that a wider performance difference did not exist between these boats (around the course) considering non-hiking vs. hiking, sexy carbon rigs vs. sturdy aluminum, wildly different hull shapes, etc, etc. All the chat this winter sure had me expecting to be spat out the back pretty quick on an SB3.

And once the boats are all in separate fleets small speed differences are irrelevant. All of the boats provide excellent (yet remarkably different) racing platforms for a fairly wide range of price. The range of price now seems to have almost nothing to do with boat to boat performance difference between them.

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?



#21 Saltwater Cowboy

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:13 PM

Ludicrous,

I mostly agree with your comments, particularly with the runs on the first two races on Friday. The Vipers can break free at around 11-12, and it seemed to take more for the SB3 and M20. Those races had more Vipers run down your fleet than any other.

Upwind, I thought there was one big difference, which you referenced in a post on another thread regarding gear changes. I don't recall getting near an SB3 upwind, but we did get in phase with the M20's a few times. When the puff would hit us, we could hike really hard, ease slightly, and just punch out. The M20's would just heel and push off to leeward. When it really started blowing in the last 2 races on Friday, I thought we made bigger gains on you guys upwind than down.

Watching you guys start was definitely an advantage. In race 2 on Sunday, the boat was biased a bit, and about 1.5 mins before the start, we were working on port to the boat end. We then saw a big lefty hit you guys, flopped over and started near the pin, and made huge gains.

#22 Bulbhunter

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:30 PM

Ludicrous,

I mostly agree with your comments, particularly with the runs on the first two races on Friday. The Vipers can break free at around 11-12, and it seemed to take more for the SB3 and M20. Those races had more Vipers run down your fleet than any other.

Upwind, I thought there was one big difference, which you referenced in a post on another thread regarding gear changes. I don't recall getting near an SB3 upwind, but we did get in phase with the M20's a few times. When the puff would hit us, we could hike really hard, ease slightly, and just punch out. The M20's would just heel and push off to leeward. When it really started blowing in the last 2 races on Friday, I thought we made bigger gains on you guys upwind than down.

Watching you guys start was definitely an advantage. In race 2 on Sunday, the boat was biased a bit, and about 1.5 mins before the start, we were working on port to the boat end. We then saw a big lefty hit you guys, flopped over and started near the pin, and made huge gains.


How did the viper talent compare to the SD NOOD viper sailors? I'm trying to get a sense of where things were based on what we saw in SD. I was really surprised the Vipers starting after the U20's were not catching us - but the conditions were pretty mild up till Sunday then it was full on 20-25 and the vipers were getting closer if they flew kites - same pending on the U20's flying the kite etc. I was pretty surprised how close the boats were in speeds also. I guess really hulls are 20ft long only so much can happen to make the performance different etc.

#23 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:32 PM

Two quick reports:

-The broken rudder was one of the pre-production rudders, according to one of the crew.

-One viper lost the same crew overboard twice

-M24, M20, Viper, and SB3 all lost crew at some point.

#24 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:34 PM

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?



I have some observations.

I'm not sure how quantitative they are.

Points to bear in mind:-

1. The Lasers SB3s . With one exception the SB3s were sailed by folks who had chartered them for the regatta and had never sailed the boat before. The exception was the "Laser" boat which had Laser sales reps rather than stacked talent on board. The bottom half of the Laser fleet were clearly still in "Learner Driver" mode so we passed them reasonably quickly in most races, but I dont think there is anything to judge from that.
The leading Laser SB3s were driven by skippers and crews who had never stepped foot on the boat before so I think it is quite impressive how they performed vs the Melges.

2. The Melges had more all star crew including various olympians and US sailing team members. Their fleet was more even.
The other difference Lase vs the Melges is the sails. Laser sails are supplied by Laser. Not bad but certainly not refined. The Melges has an open sailmaker policy and you could tell at a glance that these were much more refined (and correspondingly much more expensive) sails. I found myself thinking that if one was going to race an SB3 on handicap, one could probably squeeze some extra performance out of the sails.

3. Everyone had fun.

4. The performance difference will matter. Of course One Design is the valhalla for these 3 classes. One Design is what the big regattas will be about, and where big fleets get traction, one design will happen. BUT CRW showed that these boats will be fun to race against each other. In many parts of the country and in the early stages, that is going to matter. Once you can find the right handicap, these boats perform against each other in a very similar and consistent manner. Frankly, the 6 boat one design start at CRW for either of the SB3s or M20s was hardly exciting cut throat competition......but a line up of 12 SB3s and M20s is enough to start to draw the crowds in. In some parts of the country, mixed 20' sportsboat racing is going to be the only way for these classes to get early traction.

So with that intro, my next post has some comments on the relative characteristics and performance from the point of view of a Viperer

#25 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:58 PM

I agree with all points and especially 4, which I would have thought was crazy before this regatta. Your right, they could be fun in handicap racing and it is worthwhile to keep that in mind as the groups grow!

Somehow I doubt the Melges crowd would be willing to race with SB3's or Vipers. Melges SB3 is a pretty close game. If I did it again I would race with 3, lighter. We could hang upwind very nicely and with one less body, downwind would be closer yet.

Sails...NO DOUBT they could have more refinement although they were decent.

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?



I have some observations.

I'm not sure how quantitative they are.

Points to bear in mind:-

1. The Lasers SB3s . With one exception the SB3s were sailed by folks who had chartered them for the regatta and had never sailed the boat before. The exception was the "Laser" boat which had Laser sales reps rather than stacked talent on board. The bottom half of the Laser fleet were clearly still in "Learner Driver" mode so we passed them reasonably quickly in most races, but I dont think there is anything to judge from that.
The leading Laser SB3s were driven by skippers and crews who had never stepped foot on the boat before so I think it is quite impressive how they performed vs the Melges.

2. The Melges had more all star crew including various olympians and US sailing team members. Their fleet was more even.
The other difference Lase vs the Melges is the sails. Laser sails are supplied by Laser. Not bad but certainly not refined. The Melges has an open sailmaker policy and you could tell at a glance that these were much more refined (and correspondingly much more expensive) sails. I found myself thinking that if one was going to race an SB3 on handicap, one could probably squeeze some extra performance out of the sails.

3. Everyone had fun.

4. The performance difference will matter. Of course One Design is the valhalla for these 3 classes. One Design is what the big regattas will be about, and where big fleets get traction, one design will happen. BUT CRW showed that these boats will be fun to race against each other. In many parts of the country and in the early stages, that is going to matter. Once you can find the right handicap, these boats perform against each other in a very similar and consistent manner. Frankly, the 6 boat one design start at CRW for either of the SB3s or M20s was hardly exciting cut throat competition......but a line up of 12 SB3s and M20s is enough to start to draw the crowds in. In some parts of the country, mixed 20' sportsboat racing is going to be the only way for these classes to get early traction.

So with that intro, my next post has some comments on the relative characteristics and performance from the point of view of a Viperer



#26 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:21 PM

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.

#27 Gription

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:25 PM

from I-20 Westbound, having just crossed into Texas, towing The Stig (Viper #103) and Animal (Viper #102) on Ultraracer's ultra cool Viper Texas Tow Rig (pictures below).

What an awesome regatta! Thanks to the organizers for putting on a fantastic event. This is definitely going to have to be an annual pilgrimage. It was also great to see a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen since the Viper NAs in Marblehead last year.

Great mix of conditions, including "Baptism by fire" Friday, where we raced a brand new boat with a new crew for the first time in "dogs off chains" breeze (Woo Hoo!), to the lighter but equally fun tactical Saturday, to the breezy wrap-up on Sunday (ouch, my aching muscles!). We felt great that our results kept improving race by race, until we tore a big hole in the spanking new kite in Sunday's first race :( , and then sailed much more conservatively downwind (much to my crew's chagrin) in order to not blow the kite up completely... Oh well. Such is life.

Totally agree with Saltwater Cowboy about the Viper fleet getting tighter and more competitive as the weekend progressed. Mark roundings on Sunday seemed quite a bit more crowded and exciting, and we were all really mixing it up at the starts, which was great fun. Heck, we even had our first general recall of the regatta... :P I LOVE big fleet One Design racing!

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!
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Wicked setup :blink:

#28 Mambo Kings

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:33 PM

I agree with all points and especially 4, which I would have thought was crazy before this regatta. Your right, they could be fun in handicap racing and it is worthwhile to keep that in mind as the groups grow!

Somehow I doubt the Melges crowd would be willing to race with SB3's or Vipers. Melges SB3 is a pretty close game. If I did it again I would race with 3, lighter. We could hang upwind very nicely and with one less body, downwind would be closer yet.

Sails...NO DOUBT they could have more refinement although they were decent.


Ludicrous reminds me of another observation.

The Melges and some of the SB3s were being sailed by four up.
None of the Vipers were racing four up. Its a 3 person boat . The Vipe can be club raced by two people, but in a competitive format, the right weight is around 560lbs.
I have a feeling that the Melges benefits from four and the right weight is higher than either the Viper or the SB3.

I noted that a relatively lightweight crew on one of the SB3s got more and more competitive throughout the regatta as they learned the boat.

#29 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:39 PM

Thanks. Your observations make sense as well.

I would agree that the M20's had some trouble in gusts upwind, especially on Friday, but it wasn't horrible. Probably just steering learning curve more than anything. I saw them struggling in the lulls most of all. We had the ability to power up and de-power quickly...and that was a big advantage for us. Perhaps they were setting up to bent up. As the weekend progressed they did seem improve slightly. They are all on gen 1 sails pretty much. By middle Saturday the M20's were sailing pretty tough upwind with us although we could usually gain upwind 30-45 seconds each upwind leg. They would chew that up downwind pretty easily and then some at times. On Sunday they were going a touch faster yet around the track. It was really fun racing them boat for boat although I do think they will be faster than an SB3, if only slightly, once they are all figured out later this summer.

Ludicrous,

I mostly agree with your comments, particularly with the runs on the first two races on Friday. The Vipers can break free at around 11-12, and it seemed to take more for the SB3 and M20. Those races had more Vipers run down your fleet than any other.

Upwind, I thought there was one big difference, which you referenced in a post on another thread regarding gear changes. I don't recall getting near an SB3 upwind, but we did get in phase with the M20's a few times. When the puff would hit us, we could hike really hard, ease slightly, and just punch out. The M20's would just heel and push off to leeward. When it really started blowing in the last 2 races on Friday, I thought we made bigger gains on you guys upwind than down.

Watching you guys start was definitely an advantage. In race 2 on Sunday, the boat was biased a bit, and about 1.5 mins before the start, we were working on port to the boat end. We then saw a big lefty hit you guys, flopped over and started near the pin, and made huge gains.



#30 jh26

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 06:40 PM

How did the viper talent compare to the SD NOOD viper sailors? I'm trying to get a sense of where things were based on what we saw in SD. I was really surprised the Vipers starting after the U20's were not catching us - but the conditions were pretty mild up till Sunday then it was full on 20-25 and the vipers were getting closer if they flew kites - same pending on the U20's flying the kite etc. I was pretty surprised how close the boats were in speeds also. I guess really hulls are 20ft long only so much can happen to make the performance different etc.


I can't speak to the SD NOOD, but CRW had probably the biggest and best collection of Viper talent ever seen in one place.

re: Viper vs. U-20, we've sailed on the same course at the St Pete NOOD and in light/mild conditions (read sub-hull speed and no real planing), the larger sails on the U-20 wins, both up and down and the Vipers can't catch the U's. After all, when it's stuck in the displacement mode, 20 feet is 20 feet. The main difference is the lighter Viper breaks out sooner and once there is a good planning breeze, it can carry it deeper. it would be very difficult to handicap these boats against each other without using wind-dependent ratings.

At CRW I was on a spectator boat, and the three designs were notably different looking downwind in breeze, even if they were very close in speed. The M20 sliced - like a cat. The SB3 sat down and looked very stable (but still had their share of broaches). And the Viper was more on top of water than the others. Per-captia I'm pretty sure the Vipers broached less - it's just that there were so darn many of them out there that you got to see plenty of examples.

#31 Charlotte

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:44 PM

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!


Can't wait to see that rig in Connecticut in September for the NAs!

#32 Yard Dog

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:46 PM

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?


Other than in a "my **** is bigger than yours" debate, the outright relative speed of any one class of these boats as against any other class is totally and utterly irrelevant - the adrenaline factor will not change significantly from one to any other. The one to have is the one with an OD fleet available for you to race in.


Yes, darling, I know that the design to have is the one with the available OD fleet--hey, I didn't just fall off an M 20--but as the preceding posts show, there is an interest in relative performance, and this was the regatta to see it. As for your big asterisk, a little more exercise maybe, cut back on the chips. Oh, and get out of Ireland.

Justin, thanks for the great and, as usual, balanced information and insight on the three classes. It is very helpful. Thanks also to Ludicrous Speed for your information. And props. LS dominated the SB3 class, a boat I don't think he had sailed before. I was a little rough on you last winter when you were apparently going through light deprivation in the Michigan winter and went off the reservation, but credit where credit is due. You can sail. Nice job.

The biggest surprise to come out of the regatta: how close relative performance is between the M and the L.

#33 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 08:59 PM

Thanks very much and no worries!!! I know that I can get carried away better than anyone. SA certainly has the ability to call out an out of line pack member.

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?


Other than in a "my **** is bigger than yours" debate, the outright relative speed of any one class of these boats as against any other class is totally and utterly irrelevant - the adrenaline factor will not change significantly from one to any other. The one to have is the one with an OD fleet available for you to race in.


Yes, darling, I know that the design to have is the one with the available OD fleet--hey, I didn't just fall off an M 20--but as the preceding posts show, there is an interest in relative performance, and this was the regatta to see it. As for your big asterisk, a little more exercise maybe, cut back on the chips. Oh, and get out of Ireland.

Justin, thanks for the great and, as usual, balanced information and insight on the three classes. It is very helpful. Thanks also to Ludicrous Speed for your information. And props. LS dominated the SB3 class, a boat I don't think he had sailed before. I was a little rough on you last winter when you were apparently going through light deprivation in the Michigan winter and went off the reservation, but credit where credit is due. You can sail. Nice job.

The biggest surprise to come out of the regatta: how close relative performance is between the M and the L.



#34 schoonerman

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:23 PM

I too was surprised at how well the SB3 faired against the M20. Very different design philosophies in the boats but quite similar performance. I'm guessing the SB3's were3 at a significant disadvantage, talent wise. The guys/gals sailing the M20's were largely veteran M24 crews, best evidenced by their sailing style. I did talk to a couple of guys who were sailing the first time on the boat, but were clearly either pro or semi-pro's

I sailed a Viper and I just can't get this damn smile off my face.

More fun than you should have without being nekkid :P

In motorcycle terms, the M20 was the BMW, the SB3 more of a Honda and the Viper is the Ducatti of the bunch.

-------------------------

BTW...talked to Paul at Rondar. The two-boat trailer kit is coming out in 2-3 weeks. AND stay tuned to this forum for something completely different :ph34r:

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#35 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:06 PM

As usual, very well put. I agree with all the observations.

Each of the boats has something special to offer.

Viper - Very Fast, simple, impressive (almost evil) looking, lowest price of the SB's and very popular right now...today.
My crew Stephi could not stop talking about how sweet the boat looked! I agree, its really sweet looking.

Melges 20 - Fast, simple, attractive, expensive & exotic (which appeals to many) and sure to grow steadily in NA and Euroland.

Laser SB3 - Surprisingly fast, traditional sailing controls (some may enjoy this versatility), extremely easy to sail well (forgiving), lower cost, durable and tough (this boat is "well built"), safe, very stable and comfortable in big breeze and waves (Solent), huge class worldwide (maybe this will matter someday in North America, maybe not?)

As v640.org stated, they all produced happy sailors, big smiles and that buzz downwind. No doubt the Viper and Melges have slightly more mojo downwind but its in the same ball park. I really hope they all hit it big to be honest. I would love to sail in more regatta's like this one! In fact, I think they all will be a hit after my experience sailing in this event. The Viper already is frankly. I really dont think you can go wrong on any of the boats themselves. All of them rock in their own way.

The whole non-hiking thing, new to me and probably most of us, was pretty interesting. It was hard to fight the urge not to hike at first. I almost jumped out of the boat thinking I had my usual hiking strap to hold on too. It felt funny for a while and if you heel up alot your basically standing on the deck foot hold with your heels which isn't always the surest footing! Over the first day, my brain slowly shifted to relying on the sail controls with the crew and managing the boat. Its a finesse boat upwind, for sure. Smooth and steady, drive carefully and aggressively to keep the boat moving. In non-hiking, calling the puffs upwind and down was extra crucial. On the Melges puff calling must have been life or death! It took some extra hard concentration upwind not to get knocked around in big gusts, or big waves (heels barely holding at times) and therefore get slow vs. your competition. Downwind, non hiking was not too much different as the boats do not really benefit from hiking when the breeze is up as you are deep enough not to get pinged. I can certainly see why non-hiking has caught on but is was not as relaxed as I had expected. It still took alot of effort and coordination, perhaps even more. The SB3 was still a very physical boat in the breeze. The loads on the asail sheet were pretty big for a 20 footer as well. Im not sure if your wife is going to enjoy that position in 15+! This is likely the SB3's issue alone with its larger rig and higher weight.

The main factor still has to be the fleet size, growth, etc vs. the cost but I think its going to work itself out just fine for all the boats.

I did not get a chance to sail the V or M unfortunately. Im sure I will get on a M over in Macatawa this spring. I really want to sail a Viper. Any events in the Great Lakes in 09?

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.



#36 RockHead

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:09 AM

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread. Thank you all. I wish someone who was sailing a M20 would chime in. I hope/assume we'll hear from 1D-J80 soon.

I don't have have much to add to the excellent comments above, other than to report that friends of the kid who rode up and down to Charleston with me reported that he had some friends on M20's who were very impressed with the boat and wanted one. The M20 does look really sweet. Quite sexy in the carbon and glass. Lots of nice details. I was sort of surprised that it was as fast downwind as it was in the breeze on Friday.

Of course cost doesn't often factor into a 20 y.o.'s thought process! This particular guy was racing J/24's but was seriously asking about finding an affordable Viper. He's got some dough to buy a boat of his own, and as sexy as he found the M20, the Viper was in his sights because of price...

CRW was a blast and a nice opportunity to meet a lot of Anarchists, though not as many as I could have/should have. My boats performance was no where near what I would have liked, but it was still a load of fun. Sailing with Schoonerman was an absolute hoot, right Bubba?

#37 KnockedDown

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:51 AM

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

#38 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:16 AM

That is some funny shit.

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.



#39 RockHead

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:18 AM

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

Fucking hilarious!

#40 The Advocate

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:58 AM

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.


Someone buy that man a beer!!

#41 onedesignj80

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 10:13 AM

Hi All,
Well I had a great time and I learned a lot. The one thing we should do is give a hand to the R/C, they did a super job and should be reconized for it.
Yes I did have rudder problems. My lower gudgeon failed after a jibe on the first downwind leg of race Sunday's first race. :angry:
I am very happy with the Melges support that I have been given. After we were packed up and leaving we stopped by Race Headquaters and talked to some people. Made a call to a Melges rep. he pulled off Hwy 26 and happily waited for me catch up (30 min) and gave him the parts and discussed what had happened. The support that Melges is giving second to none!
With regards to the preformance differences between the the 20's. The Vipers are faster period. The SB3's and M-20's are very close. In the big Breeze 2 last races on Friday it seemed that we were faster than the SB3 boat for boat in both races. We did not have any depowering problems at all. In the downwind legs we are clearly faster as it has been pointed out. There was only 1-2 SB3 that were pretty quick. The great thing about the class is we were all finishing on Sat and Sun with in 1 min.
I will finish this later as I have to start work. :(
Congrats to all the Class winners as it was a tough sailing in trying conditions.

#42 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 01:03 PM

Woke up this morning and was still laughing out loud at the analogy post. Freaking hilarious. I wish I was even close to being that funny.

That is some funny shit.

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.



#43 apexchaser

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:17 PM

Well I had a great time and I learned a lot. The one thing we should do is give a hand to the R/C, they did a super job and should be reconized for it.

Congrats to all the Class winners as it was a tough sailing in trying conditions.


+1 to both of those. A HUGE thanks to the circle 1 R/C who ran a really top notch event for us! and thanks as well to the organizers of CRW. What a fantastic time...

ODJ80, sorry about your rudder issues, and it's good to hear the Melges is stepping up for you. It was good to see you again and chat while we were derigging Sunday afternoon.

See y'all again next year at CRW. Let's really fill up Circle 1 with 20' sporties, and give the R/C even more fun boats to work with. :-)

Oh, and KnockedDown, you are one funny dude!

#44 schoonerman

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:22 PM

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread. Thank you all. I wish someone who was sailing a M20 would chime in. I hope/assume we'll hear from 1D-J80 soon.

I don't have have much to add to the excellent comments above, other than to report that friends of the kid who rode up and down to Charleston with me reported that he had some friends on M20's who were very impressed with the boat and wanted one. The M20 does look really sweet. Quite sexy in the carbon and glass. Lots of nice details. I was sort of surprised that it was as fast downwind as it was in the breeze on Friday.

Of course cost doesn't often factor into a 20 y.o.'s thought process! This particular guy was racing J/24's but was seriously asking about finding an affordable Viper. He's got some dough to buy a boat of his own, and as sexy as he found the M20, the Viper was in his sights because of price...

CRW was a blast and a nice opportunity to meet a lot of Anarchists, though not as many as I could have/should have. My boats performance was no where near what I would have liked, but it was still a load of fun. Sailing with Schoonerman was an absolute hoot, right Bubba?


Still Smilin' RockHead. My crew here is already coniving on just how we can migrate the West Coast Demo boat 3000 miles east for the Nationals, my son is doing everything he can to be a part of this effort, even studying to be part of this :lol: .....hmmmmmmmm.

Thanks again for the opportunity to sail with one of the best!


---------------------------------------------------------------


Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.



That is some FUNNY shit KnockedUp. True to a T...especially the hard tits part, but at least she's good arm candy :lol:

#45 EYESAILOR

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:23 PM

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.


Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.

#46 schoonerman

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:37 PM

Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.


Hell with the halter, this is what he REALLY wants to see you wear. Your Hubby really is a damn lucky guy! Do you have a sister? :P

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Damn KnockedDown....you've started something suhweeeeet !!

#47 GybeSet®

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:39 PM

designed NZ, Made in the UK

#48 tweisleder

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:09 PM

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.


Disclaimer *** I have not sailed any of these boats, but was present at CHRW, hauled out of Charleston YC and sailed on my M24***

In talking with various people about the three boats it is in my opinion, that you may not be able to classify all these boats the same any longer, except that they are all roughly 20'. In talking with some people on a Viper, they said it was fast and fun, but you had to hike very hard to make it rock and roll. It was a big dinghy that went fast. There are going to be people who want to hike hard, get two other good crew who want to / can do the same.

Now in talking with the M20 guys, they seem to call it a "gentlemen's sport boat" or a little keel boat and less dinghy. The M20 that won was driven by a father in his late 50's (i think sorry marc if I am wrong) and his sons (30, 17) and a 16 year old girl. They, as are the others I spoke with, are not looking to be hiking like mad men and women either by their feet or stomachs, but rather want a fast ride that is more tactical and less athletic. I was hoping to get a ride after racing on both boats as I am very intrigued with them, but it just didnt happen, maybe another time, but I would think this event will draw a distinction between the two.

Either way, it is /was great to see all of the new 20' and the roughly 75 sport boats under 24' at Charleston this weekend. It is obvious that CHRW is now the new elite "non grand prix big event in the US". I look forward to trying both and seeing more of this new generation on the water as it will be a great way to help get people back into sailing something that is fast and fun.

Travis Weisleder

#49 Mambo Kings

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 04:16 PM

Disclaimer *** I have not sailed any of these boats, but was present at CHRW, hauled out of Charleston YC and sailed on my M24***

In talking with various people about the three boats it is in my opinion, that you may not be able to classify all these boats the same any longer, except that they are all roughly 20'. In talking with some people on a Viper, they said it was fast and fun, but you had to hike very hard to make it rock and roll. It was a big dinghy that went fast.

Now in talking with the M20 guys, they seem to call it a "gentlemen's sport boat" or a little keel boat and less dinghy. The M20 that won was driven by a father in his late 50's and his sons (30, 17) and a 16 year old girl. They, as are the others I spoke with, are not looking to be hiking like mad men and women either by their feet or stomachs, but rather want a fast ride that is more tactical and less athletic. I was hoping to get a ride after racing on both boats as I am very intrigued with them, but it just didnt happen, maybe another time, but I would think this event will draw a distinction between the two.

Either way, it is /was great to see all of the new 20' and the roughly 75 sport boats under 24' at Charleston this weekend. It is obvious that CHRW is now the new elite "non grand prix big event in the US". I look forward to trying both and seeing more of this new generation on the water as it will be a great way to help get people back into sailing something that is fast and fun.

Travis Weisleder


Hi Travis,

There is certainly a distinction between the Viper and the other two boats. We should celebrate the distinctions because it gets more people into 20' sportsboats.

The Viper openly embraces hiking. We definitely think that its fun. I'm 52 years young and will be sailing the Viper for at least another 14 years. Our oldest skipper at the NAs was over 70 and finished half way up the fleet. I would describe the driving position of the Viper as mildly athletic. From my perspective, once the designer of the Viper rejected the contortions of a "no hiking" concept, it allowed him full latitude to design a boat that is as comfortable to hike as possible. The massive 32" rounded tanks really support the legs and the angle of the gunwale is like a little seat for my bottom. If you like your sailing to be a little athletic, if you like some exercise on the weekend and you don't mind the glow of weary limbs after a regatta like CRW then the Vipe may be for you. Its a hiking boat!

Another curious statistic. Since the re-incarnation of the Viper, certainly since I've been involved, the Viper NAs has always been won by a skipper over 50. Its a voodoo that I was unable to break. I came second by a few points and a couple of bad tacks when I was 49. It was not until the following year, after my 50th birthday that I was able to land the big one. I am sure some young pup 40 year old will come along some time and break the curse but for now, the record stands.

At CRW, David Guggenheim came first. Stu Hebb came second. I'm not going to embarass them by asking their age but I know that David is over 50 and those that know Stu's many virtues......youth and an active gym membership are not words that spring to mind. David, Stu and I are past our dinghy sailing prime (massive understatement) but we still like going fast and hiking. The skipper doesnt hike very hard. The Viper is a keel boat. The kids that sail against us love the performance. We like it because we can still beat 'em.

Travis is right. The combined 75 sportsboats under 24' is the statistic that folks should focus on at CRW. It is the future of one design keelboat racing in the US. It will bring back people to the sport we love. It is the category that will turn around the declining demographics of sailboat racing. The M24 is massive and fantastic. The Viper fills another niche. There are other niches to be filled. Yahoo!

#50 ultraracer613um

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 04:52 PM

from I-20 Westbound, having just crossed into Texas, towing The Stig (Viper #103) and Animal (Viper #102) on Ultraracer's ultra cool Viper Texas Tow Rig (pictures below).

What an awesome regatta! Thanks to the organizers for putting on a fantastic event. This is definitely going to have to be an annual pilgrimage. It was also great to see a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen since the Viper NAs in Marblehead last year.

Great mix of conditions, including "Baptism by fire" Friday, where we raced a brand new boat with a new crew for the first time in "dogs off chains" breeze (Woo Hoo!), to the lighter but equally fun tactical Saturday, to the breezy wrap-up on Sunday (ouch, my aching muscles!). We felt great that our results kept improving race by race, until we tore a big hole in the spanking new kite in Sunday's first race :( , and then sailed much more conservatively downwind (much to my crew's chagrin) in order to not blow the kite up completely... Oh well. Such is life.

Totally agree with Saltwater Cowboy about the Viper fleet getting tighter and more competitive as the weekend progressed. Mark roundings on Sunday seemed quite a bit more crowded and exciting, and we were all really mixing it up at the starts, which was great fun. Heck, we even had our first general recall of the regatta... :P I LOVE big fleet One Design racing!

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!
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Wicked setup :blink:



Thanks! We sure did get a lot of double-takes on the way home.. The rig worked out perfectly. I made a light miscalculation in that I didn't take into account putting a pad under the keel on the truck bed - so the keel rode about 1/2" high (from being completly down in the boat trunk). Not a big issue.. just not perfection.

I have to admit that when we first arrived and sat the boat on the rack I did get a bit nervous.. My wife gave me a few looks

R2 is going to be even cooler - no need to tie the bow down yet full support for the boat in a skid-type cradle. The skid will be pulled, Casters bolted and turn into a dolly of sorts for running the boat around and rigging at the dock.

Viper640.org.. you could have followed us all the way home :ph34r:

CRW rocked!

#51 Streetwise

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 04:54 PM

I'll write up something more later, but here's a brief version of my thoughts from CRW.

I had the pleasure of crewing for Viper640.org on Mambo Kings. I've sailed various C&C and J/boats, other leadmines, Etchells, Lightnings, FJs, Force 5, etc. This was my first session sailing a sportboat of any kind, and it was the most fun sailing I have ever had! I'm 34 and athletic, and I like hiking (legs in, at least). I like feeling that every extra ounce of effort or strength I can muster will make us sail flatter and go faster. I like having my face in the waves, with one hand on the uppers, and another on the jib sheet (downwind). I love the feeling of the boat lifting up on a plane, and skimming across the water while our other crew (Tom Dent) yells at Justin, "Let's go get some boats! That's what we do!" I love choreographed tacks and jibes where the only sound is Justin counting down from three, and we duck, rotate, slide, hook into the new straps, and rocket off again.

Justin is too modest to brag, but he is a kick ass sailor and drives downwind like a madman running from the cops. He could have done this regatta with more experienced Viper crew and probably ended up on the podium (again), but he took two Viper newbies and pushed us to ninth place, topped off by an unforgettable bullet in the final race of the final day. It is going to take me two weeks to get the grin off my face from this event. As soon as I can get a loan, I'll be joining the Viper club with my own boat.

It was a pleasure sharing the course with all the twenties, and we had the friendliest race committee too. CRW has earned a permanent spot on my calendar.

Cheers,

jason

#52 jnye

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 04:57 PM

The Viper openly embraces hiking. We definitely think that its fun. I'm 52 years young and will be sailing the Viper for at least another 14 years.

Hiking - it is what it is. I'm 51 and find it amazingly easy and comfortable. On Sunday our legs were only .75 miles so that helped but even on Friday, hiking was manageable. Having said that, yes it's all a matter of degree - straight leg hiking versus droop hiking or droop hiking w/ your back verticaly or projected horizontally. Basically though, I have no problem ending the day feeling I deserved those dark n' stormies.

USA 94 as taken by Brian Bennett:
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#53 jnye

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:03 PM

... topped off by an unforgettable bullet in the final race of the final day.

I was going to write this directly but might as well do it here. You guys sailed a fantastic last race. From our perspective you won the start, leading and basically ahead of the fleet headed left and able to take the first shift. But what I thought was really impressive was that in the shifty conditions, you had to deal with the pack nibbling at your heels coming from all directions. They got close but in the last downwind you actually extended to take the race.

#54 RockHead

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:05 PM

Disclaimer *** I have not sailed any of these boats, but was present at CHRW, hauled out of Charleston YC and sailed on my M24***

In talking with various people about the three boats it is in my opinion, that you may not be able to classify all these boats the same any longer, except that they are all roughly 20'. In talking with some people on a Viper, they said it was fast and fun, but you had to hike very hard to make it rock and roll. It was a big dinghy that went fast. There are going to be people who want to hike hard, get two other good crew who want to / can do the same.

Now in talking with the M20 guys, they seem to call it a "gentlemen's sport boat" or a little keel boat and less dinghy. The M20 that won was driven by a father in his late 50's (i think sorry marc if I am wrong) and his sons (30, 17) and a 16 year old girl. They, as are the others I spoke with, are not looking to be hiking like mad men and women either by their feet or stomachs, but rather want a fast ride that is more tactical and less athletic. I was hoping to get a ride after racing on both boats as I am very intrigued with them, but it just didnt happen, maybe another time, but I would think this event will draw a distinction between the two.

Either way, it is /was great to see all of the new 20' and the roughly 75 sport boats under 24' at Charleston this weekend. It is obvious that CHRW is now the new elite "non grand prix big event in the US". I look forward to trying both and seeing more of this new generation on the water as it will be a great way to help get people back into sailing something that is fast and fun.

Travis Weisleder

The hiking/non-hiking distinction has been made here before, and is the single biggest differentiator of the Viper vs. the M20 and SB3. Though as Justin points out, age is not really any issue. On a 1.2 mile beat, you're done hiking upwind in about 20-25 minutes, and it typically ain't Laser style hiking... Then relax and enjoy the downwind sleighride. It's just a question of which style boat & sailing you want.

But to be clear -to think that non-hiking makes the M20 or SB3 more tactical is simply wrong. The most fun I had all weekend involved a close boat on boat tactical battle with Justin for the race lead on the 1st lap of the final race. We were dead even on boatspeed -I got the benefit of the last shift, crossed him on starboard, then tacked & pinned him so I could decide when to tack for the layline and the two of us led the fleet around the weather mark. We split gybes, I found the pressure and pulled ahead on the run. We won't talk about what happened after that! :blink:

#55 jh26

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:32 PM

Thanks! We sure did get a lot of double-takes on the way home.. The rig worked out perfectly. I made a light miscalculation in that I didn't take into account putting a pad under the keel on the truck bed - so the keel rode about 1/2" high (from being completly down in the boat trunk). Not a big issue.. just not perfection.


Sounds like perfection to me - I don't think I would want the weight of the keel supported to any degree by the top plate while on the highway and that extra half inch would be just about perfect to make certain it was the truck bed doing the work.

#56 Saltwater Cowboy

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:37 PM

Jonathan, you guys sailed a great regatta. 1 race out of the top 10 and boat of the day on Sunday. It seemed like we were around you guys all weekend. Congrats.

There were some major shifts in the last race on Sunday. We knew we had 107 by 3 or 4 points, and were covering, so we went right on the first run. We were more concerned with our battle with 107 than looking for better pressure, but that first run didn't feel too bad. Then about 1/2 way down we saw the fleet that went left just come out like speedboats, probably 50 yards ahead at the gate.

#57 schoonerman

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:00 PM

Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.


Oh yeah, EyeSailor, I forgot to point out the CRSA has a full inventory of Viper wear for sale. Linky I'm sure they can source and produce the halter top....as we seem to be building a solid set of gorgeous gals in the fleet (after all, they can trim the kite on a Vipe) we should DEFINITELY have a halter top as available crewwear :P

#58 1sailor

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:03 PM

http://www.screencas...27-a501abd5402f

Here's all three of 'em for a quick look.

Some extra good melges 20 footage about 25% of the way in. Go the SuperFly.

#59 Mambo Kings

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 09:20 PM

... topped off by an unforgettable bullet in the final race of the final day.

I was going to write this directly but might as well do it here. You guys sailed a fantastic last race. From our perspective you won the start, leading and basically ahead of the fleet headed left and able to take the first shift. But what I thought was really impressive was that in the shifty conditions, you had to deal with the pack nibbling at your heels coming from all directions. They got close but in the last downwind you actually extended to take the race.


Nibbling? The peleton in this fleet doesn't nibble. It bites! We slid down to 4th at one stage, but ground it back on the last 20 boat lengths on the 3rd windward leg.

Last Race

We saw the breeze going right with pressure just before the start so we adapted quickly to set up near the cttee boat. We had a clean start with no threat to windward, but with Justin Chambers and Mike Krantz on the Zhik boat (crummy buns) just to leeward going fast. The first 100 boat lengths was spent entirely focussed on keeping my lane above Zhik, bow to bow,without giving up speed. Justin is wicked fast and knows my style (we sailed together at the NAs) so one small slip and I would have been in his bad air. I couldn't get over him, and he couldn't get bow out on me so we hung together until he and a couple of other boats decide to go right and took my transom to head over there.

We looked around. It didnt seem like we were in left phase yet and I couldn't see more pressure on the right, so we kept going. The stronger tide in the middle of the course was something to consider but we had been seeing all kinds of lefty puffs at the top of the course throughout the day so we decided to at least wait until we found one of those. Everyone going right was having to take our transom, but at Charleston a momentary lead can turn out to be illusory.

When most of the fleet had crossed behind us, still no real lefty, but with most of the fleet on the right the odds had altered and I started to figure in the risk of a left shift leaving us tacking above the layline, so we put in our first tack to cover the fleet. I seem to remember that Brad Boston looked pretty good of the right boats. We eventualy got a small left shift, allowing for tide we were still a good bit below the layline, so I felt good that we still had options.

The lefty faded and immediately some of the boats tacked and started making their way more to the left of us. John Porter had already got to the left of us. He was joined by Dave and Ethan and a couple of other good boats and I liked that left at the top of the course so we tack back on to starboard to make sure that we are the leading boat from the left. Sweet smooth tacks from my crew Jason and Tom who 2 days ago had never set foot in a Viper. I am getting super conscious that a big lefty could leave us overstood. A good sized lefty after a 100 yards and I flop back again. Now we are looking really good. The left boats are lined behind me and Rockhead has suddenly appeared probably the closest boat, bow out on us but a safe distance to leeward.

Then it gets tricky. The left boats tack again to get more to the left. Rockhead is the closest boat but four other boats are damn close, they have all gone left and I think there is more left to come. We flop over to starboard again to "own the left". We get close to layline. We are 100 yards from top mark I have to go back. Back on to port, the lefty fades and Rockhead has us coming back on starboard. I would like to tack to lead him back left but we are out of race course and I dont want to be in his dirty air for the last 100 yards. Damn, where is that last lefty? I take Rockhead's transom....at least I will be on starboard when we meet again. But the crafty bastard tacks and pins me to the layline.

Rockhead had me on the final exchange of tacks and is leading, but we are right behind him at the mark. Both boats hoist before the offset and take off on screaming plane. Both crews are whooping and hollering like we were about to scalp general Custer. Rockhead and I go way way back. We have been racing against each other in different classes on and off for over 20 years so this is not the first time nor the last that we have been duking it out. We get a great wave and we surf forward and to leeward, I'm thinking "Oooh I'm going to pin him for the jibe", but I misjudge it, stay on the wave a bit too long and sail into his lee. The key in Vipers overtaking downwind is to work your way to leeward without actualy going into the dead zone beneath the leading boat. Soak it more if neccesary. I sail into the dead zone and we are forced to jibe away. Aaaargh.

Now we are on our own, trusting to lady luck, and we are going to be coming back on the port jibe. Its ugly when we come back. To cut a long story short and omit two jibes which didn't change the picture we are 4th with 10 boats right behind us but wait, there's good news, they are all dicking with each other and they are hot on the layline. We are perfectly set up on the other layline. Super smooth takedown from Jason and Tom and we round inside one boat and windward lane of another. One down, two to go. 10 boat lengths to get clear of the spinnakers and then we tack on to starboard and haul out to the left again.

It was quickly clear that the breeze was oscilating a lot more on this beat. The last beat of Charleston race week in the Viper fleet was simply epic. The front 20 boats were completely compressed, everyone was trying to tack in phase and keep clear air. God knows how many place changes there were on that final beat but it was a lot. Our plan was to work left staying in phase. There were times in righties where five boats on the right would look like they were in front of us but we always tacked and led them back to the left until we found the next lefty and then we took the heat right back to them.

Jnye said it right, the final battle was a tacking duel between two groups working at the top of the course from the left and right. I led the left group and then broke away from them and stayed on port well below the layline to cross the right group and catch one final piece of good pressure that we had seen at the top on the right. Nice lots of pressure , but its a big righty and we are above layline with two boats beneath us on layline, including Paul Zimmerman who has been going fast all week. We foot across their bows, hoist and go. Lots more pressure at the top, so we dont want to jibe until we are on layline. Paul is in second. He stays with us and then jibes first. We jibe . Flat out screaming plane. Building pressure. We're being forced to sail lower to keep her flat. "Gawd are we overstood?" We eased the jib to keep it flat so we could heat up. Its nice we're looking good. He's trying like hell but Paul can't get to us. Bang, the only bullet of the regatta. High fives with Tom and Jason who are jumping out of their skins with excitement. It was a real kick sailing with them for the three days, seeing them get faster and smoother every day and their transparent delight in the boat. I'm glad they got their bullet because they deserved it. Two new friends and a great weekend of sailing. What more could you ask for out of life?

#60 VENOMISS

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 09:40 PM

Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.


Oh yeah, EyeSailor, I forgot to point out the CRSA has a full inventory of Viper wear for sale. Linky I'm sure they can source and produce the halter top....as we seem to be building a solid set of gorgeous gals in the fleet (after all, they can trim the kite on a Vipe) we should DEFINITELY have a halter top as available crewwear :P



I can work on seeing if there are "chick shirts" that CRSA can have available..... And I love to trim the kite! :P

#61 kiwikz7

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 10:12 PM

Attached File  Viper_CRW1.jpg   188.17K   71 downloadsI was on one of the lead boats and my observation is that the Viper is quicker upwind than both the SB3 and M20, in a breeze the SB3 seemed to hold its lane better with the puff on, the M20 appeared to get a little soft and slide sideways in the puffs on Friday. Downwind the Viper easily sails faster and way deeper than the SB3 and the M20. We were able to plane much earlier and carry the wind further forward and hold it when we were bearing away. I would say we can run 20 - 25 degrees deeper in the breeze. That said, the SB3 and M20 are close boats but quite different from the Viper. Ludicrous Speed's presumption that we were catching up because we could see the wind shifts because of the other boats is ludicrous; speed difference is real. On the age thing, I'm definately on the north side of 50 and the hiking really is comfortable.

Black Mamba #110

#62 schoonerman

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:32 PM

... topped off by an unforgettable bullet in the final race of the final day.

I was going to write this directly but might as well do it here. You guys sailed a fantastic last race. From our perspective you won the start, leading and basically ahead of the fleet headed left and able to take the first shift. But what I thought was really impressive was that in the shifty conditions, you had to deal with the pack nibbling at your heels coming from all directions. They got close but in the last downwind you actually extended to take the race.


Nibbling? The peleton in this fleet doesn't nibble. It bites! We slid down to 4th at one stage, but ground it back on the last 20 boat lengths on the 3rd windward leg.

Last Race

We saw the breeze going right with pressure just before the start so we adapted quickly to set up near the cttee boat. We had a clean start with no threat to windward, but with Justin Chambers and Mike Krantz on the Zhik boat (crummy buns) just to leeward going fast. The first 100 boat lengths was spent entirely focussed on keeping my lane above Zhik, bow to bow,without giving up speed. Justin is wicked fast and knows my style (we sailed together at the NAs) so one small slip and I would have been in his bad air. I couldn't get over him, and he couldn't get bow out on me so we hung together until he and a couple of other boats decide to go right and took my transom to head over there.

We looked around. It didnt seem like we were in left phase yet and I couldn't see more pressure on the right, so we kept going. The stronger tide in the middle of the course was something to consider but we had been seeing all kinds of lefty puffs at the top of the course throughout the day so we decided to at least wait until we found one of those. Everyone going right was having to take our transom, but at Charleston a momentary lead can turn out to be illusory.

When most of the fleet had crossed behind us, still no real lefty, but with most of the fleet on the right the odds had altered and I started to figure in the risk of a left shift leaving us tacking above the layline, so we put in our first tack to cover the fleet. I seem to remember that Brad Boston looked pretty good of the right boats. We eventualy got a small left shift, allowing for tide we were still a good bit below the layline, so I felt good that we still had options.

The lefty faded and immediately some of the boats tacked and started making their way more to the left of us. John Porter had already got to the left of us. He was joined by Dave and Ethan and a couple of other good boats and I liked that left at the top of the course so we tack back on to starboard to make sure that we are the leading boat from the left. Sweet smooth tacks from my crew Jason and Tom who 2 days ago had never set foot in a Viper. I am getting super conscious that a big lefty could leave us overstood. A good sized lefty after a 100 yards and I flop back again. Now we are looking really good. The left boats are lined behind me and Rockhead has suddenly appeared probably the closest boat, bow out on us but a safe distance to leeward.

Then it gets tricky. The left boats tack again to get more to the left. Rockhead is the closest boat but four other boats are damn close, they have all gone left and I think there is more left to come. We flop over to starboard again to "own the left". We get close to layline. We are 100 yards from top mark I have to go back. Back on to port, the lefty fades and Rockhead has us coming back on starboard. I would like to tack to lead him back left but we are out of race course and I dont want to be in his dirty air for the last 100 yards. Damn, where is that last lefty? I take Rockhead's transom....at least I will be on starboard when we meet again. But the crafty bastard tacks and pins me to the layline.

Rockhead had me on the final exchange of tacks and is leading, but we are right behind him at the mark. Both boats hoist before the offset and take off on screaming plane. Both crews are whooping and hollering like we were about to scalp general Custer. Rockhead and I go way way back. We have been racing against each other in different classes on and off for over 20 years so this is not the first time nor the last that we have been duking it out. We get a great wave and we surf forward and to leeward, I'm thinking "Oooh I'm going to pin him for the jibe", but I misjudge it, stay on the wave a bit too long and sail into his lee. The key in Vipers overtaking downwind is to work your way to leeward without actualy going into the dead zone beneath the leading boat. Soak it more if neccesary. I sail into the dead zone and we are forced to jibe away. Aaaargh.

Now we are on our own, trusting to lady luck, and we are going to be coming back on the port jibe. Its ugly when we come back. To cut a long story short and omit two jibes which didn't change the picture we are 4th with 10 boats right behind us but wait, there's good news, they are all dicking with each other and they are hot on the layline. We are perfectly set up on the other layline. Super smooth takedown from Jason and Tom and we round inside one boat and windward lane of another. One down, two to go. 10 boat lengths to get clear of the spinnakers and then we tack on to starboard and haul out to the left again.

It was quickly clear that the breeze was oscilating a lot more on this beat. The last beat of Charleston race week in the Viper fleet was simply epic. The front 20 boats were completely compressed, everyone was trying to tack in phase and keep clear air. God knows how many place changes there were on that final beat but it was a lot. Our plan was to work left staying in phase. There were times in righties where five boats on the right would look like they were in front of us but we always tacked and led them back to the left until we found the next lefty and then we took the heat right back to them.

Jnye said it right, the final battle was a tacking duel between two groups working at the top of the course from the left and right. I led the left group and then broke away from them and stayed on port well below the layline to cross the right group and catch one final piece of good pressure that we had seen at the top on the right. Nice lots of pressure , but its a big righty and we are above layline with two boats beneath us on layline, including Paul Zimmerman who has been going fast all week. We foot across their bows, hoist and go. Lots more pressure at the top, so we dont want to jibe until we are on layline. Paul is in second. He stays with us and then jibes first. We jibe . Flat out screaming plane. Building pressure. We're being forced to sail lower to keep her flat. "Gawd are we overstood?" We eased the jib to keep it flat so we could heat up. Its nice we're looking good. He's trying like hell but Paul can't get to us. Bang, the only bullet of the regatta. High fives with Tom and Jason who are jumping out of their skins with excitement. It was a real kick sailing with them for the three days, seeing them get faster and smoother every day and their transparent delight in the boat. I'm glad they got their bullet because they deserved it. Two new friends and a great weekend of sailing. What more could you ask for out of life?


GREAT play by play. Here's the shot of us 'lardasses' hiking the boat flat. We never would have made it to the top if we hadn't kept her flat and fast. We just didn't have good speed on the kite run...user error...long story. Next time you see Rattler she'll be fresh, fast and ready.

That was a FUN-AS-HELL race, pretty epic and a great way to end CRW.

Thanks again for lots of laughs, learning and leaning.

Attached File  proof_2009_Charleston_Race_Week_Sunday_1669_1.JPG   37.1K   100 downloads

#63 1sailor

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 01:08 AM

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.


640, I will say that your un-ending bragging of the viper has gotten old, but I'm grateful to you that at last it occurs on a thread other than the audi / melges 20 discussion thread. Thank you for that.

I'm glad you've found a new place for your 'discussion' about your boat. Jeez, dude.

#64 RockHead

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 02:35 AM

"Crafty bastard" eh? Thank You! :lol:

Yes, the 'ol Rattler has a little bond failure between the top of the keelbox and the deck (10 year old boat) we learned. With the bow wave at the keel, water shooting up, firehosing through, up and out the the top of the keelbox, a fair amount goes into the open seam... We never sponged her out all weekend and upon hauling, drained a good 20 gallons of water from her. Easy enough fix, but damn, that's a lot of extra weight to be lugging around the course, plus what it does to the dynamics of the boat. Crikey!

Schoonerman is a psycho- he can hike forever (longer and harder than me!) and he trimmed the kite the whole breezy Friday with a non-functional ratchet block on the kite.

#65 Dixie

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:10 PM

"Crafty bastard" eh? Thank You! :lol:

Yes, the 'ol Rattler has a little bond failure between the top of the keelbox and the deck (10 year old boat) we learned. With the bow wave at the keel, water shooting up, firehosing through, up and out the the top of the keelbox, a fair amount goes into the open seam... We never sponged her out all weekend and upon hauling, drained a good 20 gallons of water from her. Easy enough fix, but damn, that's a lot of extra weight to be lugging around the course, plus what it does to the dynamics of the boat. Crikey!

Schoonerman is a psycho- he can hike forever (longer and harder than me!) and he trimmed the kite the whole breezy Friday with a non-functional ratchet block on the kite.


Maybe it was the booze, but I heard 30 gallons from Schoonerman! Great to hang out with y'all and race against you. Vipers are fun fun fun.
Justin I haven't read your long play by play yet, but will be interested to read it at some point. Thanks for all of your kind words of support and assistance this weekend - you do a great job as the class dude ( i think chairman, but not sure). Also, and more seriously, Brian and Paul did a great job helping us with set up (we were all new to the Viper).
Dixie.

#66 win

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:29 PM

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.


640, I will say that your un-ending bragging of the viper has gotten old, but I'm grateful to you that at last it occurs on a thread other than the audi / melges 20 discussion thread. Thank you for that.

I'm glad you've found a new place for your 'discussion' about your boat. Jeez, dude.

Amen brother.

#67 RockHead

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:58 PM

"Crafty bastard" eh? Thank You! :lol:

Yes, the 'ol Rattler has a little bond failure between the top of the keelbox and the deck (10 year old boat) we learned. With the bow wave at the keel, water shooting up, firehosing through, up and out the the top of the keelbox, a fair amount goes into the open seam... We never sponged her out all weekend and upon hauling, drained a good 20 gallons of water from her. Easy enough fix, but damn, that's a lot of extra weight to be lugging around the course, plus what it does to the dynamics of the boat. Crikey!

Schoonerman is a psycho- he can hike forever (longer and harder than me!) and he trimmed the kite the whole breezy Friday with a non-functional ratchet block on the kite.


Maybe it was the booze, but I heard 30 gallons from Schoonerman! Great to hang out with y'all and race against you. Vipers are fun fun fun.
Justin I haven't read your long play by play yet, but will be interested to read it at some point. Thanks for all of your kind words of support and assistance this weekend - you do a great job as the class dude ( i think chairman, but not sure). Also, and more seriously, Brian and Paul did a great job helping us with set up (we were all new to the Viper).
Dixie.

Hey, what's another 5-10 gallons? We still we fast enough to lead 1/2 the last race till I pooched a gybe. I'd love to blame 20-30 gallons of water in the hull for that!

Brian and Paul ARE huge assets to the Viper class. I don't know of many (if any) classes where you can quiz the designer and builder on ANY question about the boat face to face at a regatta. After finding the water in my boat, I rang up Brian while driving home, to inquire about possible leaky spots and got a quick unequivocal answer and advice on the repair, "On your boat, that would be... here's what you do..." And they're both just really nice guys... Paul ran for 2 big coolers full of beer for the sailors during the postponement on Saturday. Brian's going to help me build a transfer seating system to get Mrs. RockHead sailing Vipers...

So Dix, can we get you a Viper order form? Anybody else? :ph34r:

#68 schoonerman

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 12:38 AM

"Crafty bastard" eh? Thank You! :lol:

Yes, the 'ol Rattler has a little bond failure between the top of the keelbox and the deck (10 year old boat) we learned. With the bow wave at the keel, water shooting up, firehosing through, up and out the the top of the keelbox, a fair amount goes into the open seam... We never sponged her out all weekend and upon hauling, drained a good 20 gallons of water from her. Easy enough fix, but damn, that's a lot of extra weight to be lugging around the course, plus what it does to the dynamics of the boat. Crikey!

Schoonerman is a psycho- he can hike forever (longer and harder than me!) and he trimmed the kite the whole breezy Friday with a non-functional ratchet block on the kite.


Maybe it was the booze, but I heard 30 gallons from Schoonerman! Great to hang out with y'all and race against you. Vipers are fun fun fun.
Justin I haven't read your long play by play yet, but will be interested to read it at some point. Thanks for all of your kind words of support and assistance this weekend - you do a great job as the class dude ( i think chairman, but not sure). Also, and more seriously, Brian and Paul did a great job helping us with set up (we were all new to the Viper).
Dixie.


Rock said 20 gallons water...the other 10 gallons was beer :lol:

#69 Christian

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:40 AM

"Crafty bastard" eh? Thank You! :lol:

Yes, the 'ol Rattler has a little bond failure between the top of the keelbox and the deck (10 year old boat) we learned. With the bow wave at the keel, water shooting up, firehosing through, up and out the the top of the keelbox, a fair amount goes into the open seam... We never sponged her out all weekend and upon hauling, drained a good 20 gallons of water from her. Easy enough fix, but damn, that's a lot of extra weight to be lugging around the course, plus what it does to the dynamics of the boat. Crikey!

Schoonerman is a psycho- he can hike forever (longer and harder than me!) and he trimmed the kite the whole breezy Friday with a non-functional ratchet block on the kite.


Maybe it was the booze, but I heard 30 gallons from Schoonerman! Great to hang out with y'all and race against you. Vipers are fun fun fun.
Justin I haven't read your long play by play yet, but will be interested to read it at some point. Thanks for all of your kind words of support and assistance this weekend - you do a great job as the class dude ( i think chairman, but not sure). Also, and more seriously, Brian and Paul did a great job helping us with set up (we were all new to the Viper).
Dixie.


Rock said 20 gallons water...the other 10 gallons was beer :lol:


So - next time - be a man and pee over the side and not into the inspection ports :lol:

#70 Tim Jedda 22

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:42 AM

I'll write up something more later, but here's a brief version of my thoughts from CRW.

I had the pleasure of crewing for Viper640.org on Mambo Kings. I've sailed various C&C and J/boats, other leadmines, Etchells, Lightnings, FJs, Force 5, etc. This was my first session sailing a sportboat of any kind, and it was the most fun sailing I have ever had! I'm 34 and athletic, and I like hiking (legs in, at least). I like feeling that every extra ounce of effort or strength I can muster will make us sail flatter and go faster. I like having my face in the waves, with one hand on the uppers, and another on the jib sheet (downwind). I love the feeling of the boat lifting up on a plane, and skimming across the water while our other crew (Tom Dent) yells at Justin, "Let's go get some boats! That's what we do!" I love choreographed tacks and jibes where the only sound is Justin counting down from three, and we duck, rotate, slide, hook into the new straps, and rocket off again.

Justin is too modest to brag, but he is a kick ass sailor and drives downwind like a madman running from the cops. He could have done this regatta with more experienced Viper crew and probably ended up on the podium (again), but he took two Viper newbies and pushed us to ninth place, topped off by an unforgettable bullet in the final race of the final day. It is going to take me two weeks to get the grin off my face from this event. As soon as I can get a loan, I'll be joining the Viper club with my own boat.

It was a pleasure sharing the course with all the twenties, and we had the friendliest race committee too. CRW has earned a permanent spot on my calendar.

Cheers,

jason


Jason,

that's an awesome couple of paragraphs that i think may cost me a heap of cash. I went from windsurfing to a 22ft trailerable 4KSB - which my wife, with our young family appreciate - as great as the 4ksb is for cruising about with the family, i think a performance dinghy and then a sportsboat when cash is abundant is the way to go to get back the thrill on the water. Just might need to get the kids into dinghy's also when they're old enough - that way ready made crew!!

Cheers, and thanks for the inspiration!!

#71 eastend

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:02 AM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?

#72 Christian

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:34 AM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?


No Vipers turtled - a number of broaches and a couple of them with the stick close to the water - we might just have gotten or masthead wet once. That's the way small sportboats are and it was no different than the M20's or SB3's - it may just have looked like more Vipers viped out as there were many more Vipers than M20's/SB3's. The boat comes back up on its own - so calling it "flipping over" is definitely a misnomer.

#73 win

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 11:51 AM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?



almost :unsure:

#74 jnye

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 12:50 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?

Gotta love these "I heard [insert claim]" in an effort to start a shit storm. In the old days, we called it a broach, knock down or a round up. So what's your point? As already stated, plenty of the 20 footers of all flavors laid over. They all came up (unlike some J24s). Much of it may have had to do with the relative inexperience of many of the sailors sailing this type of boat. I'd wager, without being able to prove it one way or the other, that there were significantly fewer broaches on Sunday than on Friday as people got more familiar with the boats (particularly with gybing).

BTW, I heard [insert name of 20' sportboat you want to slam] skippers all beat their crews. Did any end up in the hospital?

#75 ultraracer613um

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 12:58 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?



almost :unsure:



Not almost, not even close win. There's a big difference between turtle and a broach.

I was one of the boats that took a spill (operator error). Friday was our first time in the viper - 20+ knots straight out of the box, the only water time we had was sailing the boat from the Charleston YC over to Patriots Point. My wife commented that we'd certainly done worse in our J22 the only difference was that in the 22 you had to worry about water getting into the boat and it going to the bottom.

I was actually pleased to see that although the boat would go tip-sideways if you do something stupid (like all keel-boats), there was no drama. Based on the way the boat behaved in the breeze the wife and I have decided to bring our 9-year old out for a regatta next weekend (winds expected above 15).

#76 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:30 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?


You gotta problem with that?

FB- Doug

#77 schoonerman

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:54 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?


LMAO....we couldn't have tried any harder to get our spreaders washed if we had to...skipper off the boat, crew and I standing on the inner gunnell, feet awash, kite soaking in a few hundred pounds of water, shrimp and mullet...damn if the fucking boat just didn't pop back up (just as I pulled the skip out), kite popped, fish-a-flyin' and we're off right back up to 15+ knots...of course that little incident didn't help our standing in the fleet for that race :lol:

The Vipe is remarkably stable for a boat that weighs nearly as little as the crew it carries.

Best thing is, with the kite launcher you always have a douse as an option, something none of the other 20's have...though I far prefer the skiff-style waterstart method :P

#78 Dixie

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:10 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?



almost :unsure:



Not almost, not even close win. There's a big difference between turtle and a broach.

I was one of the boats that took a spill (operator error). Friday was our first time in the viper - 20+ knots straight out of the box, the only water time we had was sailing the boat from the Charleston YC over to Patriots Point. My wife commented that we'd certainly done worse in our J22 the only difference was that in the 22 you had to worry about water getting into the boat and it going to the bottom.

I was actually pleased to see that although the boat would go tip-sideways if you do something stupid (like all keel-boats), there was no drama. Based on the way the boat behaved in the breeze the wife and I have decided to bring our 9-year old out for a regatta next weekend (winds expected above 15).



How very cool Ultraracer and great to meet y'all too!

We had as much time in the Viper as you did and broached a few times on Friday. When I was plucked out of the water Friday, my first question to Brian (the plucker), was "How do we right quicker?" On Sunday we had one "Vipe-out" (several others were hit at the same time) and with the new info - douse the kite - were able to quickly correct and take off again.

#79 GybeSet®

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:10 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?


judging by another post an M apologist/troll

if a boat couldn't get 80-90^ over would it be a sportsboat ?

East, iv'e been on volvo boats that where washing their spreaders, whats your f point ?

#80 Dixie

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:14 PM

Best thing is, with the kite launcher you always have a douse as an option, something none of the other 20's have...though I far prefer the skiff-style waterstart method :P


Great fun unless your crew flipped off and is still holding the lazy sheet !

#81 ultraracer613um

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:42 PM

Note: After our knock-down we still beat several of the M20's boat / boat after giving them a 5 min start on a course no longer than 6 miles. We didn't even finish in the top 5.

#82 apexchaser

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:00 PM

On big-air Friday, we managed to sail every race without a single wipeout, and were real proud of ourselves.... right up until the very last downwind leg of the last race of the day. :ph34r:

We were coming in to the finish on starboard gybe, totally stoked that we were going to finish maybe 6th or 7th, by far our best finish so far. Heh Heh Heh... best laid plans. All of a sudden a boat right behind us gybes to shoot for the pin-end to try to beat us to the line, so we throw in a super-quick gybe to protect and still beat them to the finish. And WHAM... operator error (I came out of the gybe too hot) and we wipe out only yards from the line, losing maybe 2-3 boats in the process. OOOPS! Quick dump of the kite halyard, boat comes up, and we take off in one of those cool "water starts" to finally finish. Oh well! :lol:

Who's got that lime green kite? You guys totally got us (that time). Ultraracer, I think you guys also got by us. If only we'd wiped out a few seconds later, I think my masthead would've crossed the plane of the finish line ahead of you! :P

Good times...

#83 1sailor

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:07 PM

we still beat several of the M20's boat / boat after giving them a 5 min start


It's not *just* how fast you go. It's how well you go fast.

#84 VENOMISS

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:12 PM

Best thing is, with the kite launcher you always have a douse as an option, something none of the other 20's have...though I far prefer the skiff-style waterstart method :P


Great fun unless your crew flipped off and is still holding the lazy sheet !



....at least your crew held on! Ours just popped off and waved to us like he was in a spectator fleet, twice! :blink: ...and we were on our feet both times, not crashed, broached, viped out, pinned or whatever you want to call it!

#85 The Advocate

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:16 PM

What's the deal with the Vipers flipping over? Heard there were many masts in the water and keels out. Did any turtle?


judging by another post an M apologist/troll

if a boat couldn't get 80-90^ over would it be a sportsboat ?

East, iv'e been on volvo boats that where washing their spreaders, whats your f point ?


Frikin trolls, just when all 3 groups were getting along so well. Notice the number of post under his belt GS? Sure sign.

Classic definition, perhaps the ASBA should have picked it up. Hell, a vip would be a doodle to right. Try a T750 with a 115sq metre kite prawning.

Funny thing (read caused rants by people that wouldn't know) happened on the Swan a little while ago. S8 stuffed it right over with the keel all arse about. Boat doesn't right itself so the local druids start rabbiting on about "See we told you these things were dangerous!!!" For these blokes anything faster than a 4ksb is dangerous. Of course they didn't pick up on the metre of mud stains on the top off the main. I don't think too many boats would self right with that much of the rig stuffed into the bottom of the river.

The Vipers look great guys.

#86 schoonerman

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:42 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.

#87 tweisleder

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:51 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.



ok ok....so with all of the viper talk, who do I need to talk with about chartering one for the Sail Newport Event in July so I can see what all the fuss is about? :rolleyes::-)
Travis

#88 jnye

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:58 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.



ok ok....so with all of the viper talk, who do I need to talk with about chartering one for the Sail Newport Event in July so I can see what all the fuss is about? :rolleyes::-)
Travis

You sure? It might prove too addictive. As with all things Viper, start by PMing Viper640.org (Justin). That is if he hasn't reached out to you already.

#89 ZachF

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:23 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.



ok ok....so with all of the viper talk, who do I need to talk with about chartering one for the Sail Newport Event in July so I can see what all the fuss is about? :rolleyes::-)
Travis



I can't help you with a charter for the regatta, but I keep my Viper at Sail Newport and I'm always looking for an excuse to go sailing.

#90 schoonerman

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:30 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.



ok ok....so with all of the viper talk, who do I need to talk with about chartering one for the Sail Newport Event in July so I can see what all the fuss is about? :rolleyes: :-)
Travis


Dayum Travis. You wanna go for a ride, I'll come out there myself and hook you up!

hit up rondarboats@gmail.com

Brian Bennett the designer and Rondar North America manager is at the other end of that email and often has boats in circulation. If you don't know Justin (viper640.org), you should. You guys are both in the trenches together...so to speak.

#91 Dixie

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:02 PM

Best thing is, with the kite launcher you always have a douse as an option, something none of the other 20's have...though I far prefer the skiff-style waterstart method :P


Great fun unless your crew flipped off and is still holding the lazy sheet !



....at least your crew held on! Ours just popped off and waved to us like he was in a spectator fleet, twice! :blink: ...and we were on our feet both times, not crashed, broached, viped out, pinned or whatever you want to call it!


UH yeah, I held on for a few seconds until I realized that I couldn't submarine for long, and then let go and waved like said spectator! But at least it was on a Vipe Out.

#92 Dixie

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:09 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.


Congrats to the EC for the new interest. Gotta get folks excited in SF and SD! Any boat shows coming up over there?

#93 schoonerman

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 07:35 PM

Congrats to the EC for the new interest. Gotta get folks excited in SF and SD! Any boat shows coming up over there?


Just had the Strictly Sail Pacific Sail Expo and Powerboat show....long story. Couldn't get a Vipe here in time as Rondar was cranking out the boats that HAD to be at Charleston in time for Race Week. The demo boat, #104 is on a slow boat from England, (read; RORO) that lands in 3 ports on the EC, then Galveston, then through the Ditch to Oxnard where it'll drop off 'BoomSlang.'

We'll go on the demo trail from there. Probably hit Ventura Oxnard for a "dip, chip and demo" (beers, burgers and sailing :P ), then up to Santa Barbara for another 'dip, chip and demo', then onto Santa Cruz (which should be a GREAT market for Vipes, then home to SF. LA/SD will come within a few weeks. West Marine (South City) is hosting the West Coast Debut of Rondar RaceBoats and the Viper once we get the delivery date nailed down.

#94 tweisleder

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:39 PM

Good things coming from CRW....two orders for Vipers this week on the EC :P We gotta get things moving on the WC. Long Beach Race Week Loomin' Large.



ok ok....so with all of the viper talk, who do I need to talk with about chartering one for the Sail Newport Event in July so I can see what all the fuss is about? :rolleyes: :-)
Travis


Dayum Travis. You wanna go for a ride, I'll come out there myself and hook you up!

hit up rondarboats@gmail.com

Brian Bennett the designer and Rondar North America manager is at the other end of that email and often has boats in circulation. If you don't know Justin (viper640.org), you should. You guys are both in the trenches together...so to speak.


Well maybe we can talk more about that at the 24 Nationals. What is the optimum crew weight?

#95 Yard Dog

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:42 PM

Question for all three designs, but particularly for the Vipes: How much crew weight did you sail with and what was your experience? The V is rated for 560. Me and the two crew I want to sail with are all 200 to 220 and we sail in the light-air Bay so a bit concerned about three Clydesdales in that boat. Can it handle it?

#96 VENOMISS

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 08:53 PM

Question for all three designs, but particularly for the Vipes: How much crew weight did you sail with and what was your experience? The V is rated for 560. Me and the two crew I want to sail with are all 200 to 220 and we sail in the light-air Bay so a bit concerned about three Clydesdales in that boat. Can it handle it?



I think our boat might have been the lightest in crew weight. Maybe around 470 or a touch less?? We struggled a bit upwind on Friday, but found out later our rig wasn't in the greatest tune and we could have used some other techniques to help us out upwind. *still learning!* Sunday we did much better upwind and at least held on to positions against others a bit better. We sure did haul the mail downwind though!! :P

#97 Mambo Kings

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:00 PM

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.


640, I will say that your un-ending bragging of the viper has gotten old, but I'm grateful to you that at last it occurs on a thread other than the audi / melges 20 discussion thread. Thank you for that.

I'm glad you've found a new place for your 'discussion' about your boat. Jeez, dude.


I will PM Eric to try and straighten this out but so that I am not quoted out of context:-

Justin :-
"The Viper is a clearly faster boat because it is lighter and has a hull with high form stability allowing a greater power to weight ratio. The Melges and the Laser were reasonably evenly matched at Charleston with the Melges having an edge downwind. I’m not sure that there is much to be gained from that information because the feel and behavior of the boat is more important than absolute boat speed. I always recommend that folks try the different boats and make up their own minds. "

LS (from the Laser SB3 Fleet) :-
"To my eye, Vipers were gaining between 2 to 4 minutes per race (4 miles appx). The first race (Friday) in particular had a massive pressure line and the Vipers caught the M20/SB3 fleet almost immediately. In most races the lead M20 / SB3 was roughly 3 min ahead of the lead Viper. So I would say 20 - 25 seconds per mile?"

OneDesignJ80 (from the Melges 20 fleet):-
"With regards to the preformance differences between the the 20's. The Vipers are faster period. The SB3's and M-20's are very close. "

On top of that I would like to point out that I walked round all the docks where the different 20' sportsboats were rafted at Charleston. I introduced my self to the Laser SB3 fleet and the Melges 20 fleet. I organized cocktails by the pool area for the sporty 20 combined fleet on Saturday evening and invited the Laser fleet and Melges fleet to join, and extended that invitation to the rafted boats and asked each fleet to pass the word. After cocktails we heard a tactics chalk talk from some of the top sailors on circle 1 on what they had seen happening, open to all. Those that attended enjoyed it.

LS and I had an interesting chat by the pool. We can all have a shit fight like the scowbillies and keep people away from sporty 20's because they dont know what to think but they are put of by the acrimony OR we can let people see how much damn fun these boats are. My vote is the latter.

Cummon.......a little friendly rivalry is a good thing......but don't let it obscure the big picture that we are having tons of good times.

#98 win

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:01 PM

Question for all three designs, but particularly for the Vipes: How much crew weight did you sail with and what was your experience? The V is rated for 560. Me and the two crew I want to sail with are all 200 to 220 and we sail in the light-air Bay so a bit concerned about three Clydesdales in that boat. Can it handle it?


not an owner.
sailed the vip at or around 560.
I think and will probably be corrected, That the crew wieght is a self limiting thing. in light air it may hurt a little, but the design of the boat is so open that you can really move the hoarses to where they need to be and minimize increased wetted area.
As far as the boat being able to handle (not an owner) the crew weight i would have to say not even an issue the boat is a hell of a lot more burly than it looks. and was surprised how solid it was the first time i walked on to one. ive sailed all three generations and it is one hell of a boat dude.

thahts a great question and look forward to reading and learning

#99 RockHead

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:16 PM

Question for all three designs, but particularly for the Vipes: How much crew weight did you sail with and what was your experience? The V is rated for 560. Me and the two crew I want to sail with are all 200 to 220 and we sail in the light-air Bay so a bit concerned about three Clydesdales in that boat. Can it handle it?

Schoonerman, myself and our "boy" weighed in close to 600 pounds (590-595). He and I are definitely in the Clydesdale camp... We were pretty quick upwind, and led at a few windward marks when we went the right way (!). We were probably a tick slow offwind vs the top boats, but not terribly noticeably.

It's an slight advantage upwind, but a slight disadvantage downwind. It tends to sort itself out pretty well. Last year in Newport, I sailed with two scrawney college kids (>550), vs a crew of 3 Clydesdales (probably 650). They would run away from us upwind in 15 knots of breeze, hiking all that weight, and we would reel them in downwind. Of course, one of those Clydedales was the boat's designer who was driving, so we didn't often get around them, but it was an interesting perspective. In hindsight, I could have done a better job with rig tune and likely stayed closer upwind.

Really, it's surprisingly not that important IME. Head out of the boat, finding the pressure rules both upwind and down. You can accomodate weight differences with rig tune pretty easily I've learned, as I get better tuning the carbon rig. In very light air >8-10 knots, a lighter crew will have an advantage though, when the Clydsedales can't put their beef to work upwind, yet have to drag it all the way around the course. You'll also have a harder time in marginal planing conditions, as a lighter crew will be able to plane sooner, and/or sail deeper while planing.

Best advice is to try to arrange for a charter boat for a regatta or borrow a boat for a local fleet race and see.

#100 Mambo Kings

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 09:31 PM

Question for all three designs, but particularly for the Vipes: How much crew weight did you sail with and what was your experience? The V is rated for 560. Me and the two crew I want to sail with are all 200 to 220 and we sail in the light-air Bay so a bit concerned about three Clydesdales in that boat. Can it handle it?


YD. The design weight for the Vipe is 540/560. It is not very sensitive 50lbs either side so from 500lbs to 600lbs you can be competitive, but as you get over 610 lbs with your 3x 220lb clydesdales you are going to hurt downwind in light air.

Thats the honest response.

I would love you guys to get involved. Of course the boat can handle it and more, but for the competitve regattas we would have to persuade you to sail with a son, daughter, college kid from the club. Schooner and Rockhead are major clydesdales but sailed CRW with a kid from C of C.




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