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The Roaring Twenties


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#201 apexchaser

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 02:19 AM

but the ability to cruise the U20 in the rain won out.


Can't argue with that logic. I hear it rains a little bit up where you live? Although I will say it is amusing how many sailors (myself included) love being ON the water, but when the stuff starts coming out of the sky, we run for cover! :lol:

Really liked the Viper designer- nice guy.


A resounding "+1" on that one. Brian Bennett is not only a really good guy, but also a fantastic sailor (let's seee... America's Cup, Whitbread Round The World Race, Contender Junior World Champion, etc etc) and excellent coach.

Many of us in the viper fleet have had the pleasure and good fortune to have Brian sail with us, and have learned heaps from the experience.

#202 schoonerman

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Posted 03 May 2009 - 07:18 PM

The Viper and the U20 couldn't be much more different and still be 20 footers (both nearly 21').

I do find them pretty close in performance with the BIG difference being the Viper planes in less breeze.

My kids love the U20 as they can pile in all their friends, coolers full of food and cokes and go sppeding around the Bay. It's pretty handy having a place to stow your stuff.

I guess to sum it up best....the U20 is a small keelboat, the Viper is a Big Dinghy.

Brian Bennett is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, as is Jim Antrim. These guys do this for the love of the sport.

#203 EYESAILOR

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 02:00 AM

The Viper and the U20 couldn't be much more different and still be 20 footers (both nearly 21').

I do find them pretty close in performance with the BIG difference being the Viper planes in less breeze.


I've read several posts suggesting that the U20 is close in performance to the Viper.

No disrespect to the U20 owners......but there is a real disconnect here. This would suggest that the U20 is faster than the SB3 and the Melges 20. I just find that incredibly hard to believe.

I have never watched any racing where Vipers and U20s are on the same race course so I have no first hand knowledge but I've looked at both boats out the water and in the water and my disbelief grows.

Another data point is the comments from West coast sailors about racing between U 20s and Open 5.70 s, where the Open 5.70 keeps up with the U20 in stronger winds. I did watch Open 5.70 vs the Vipers vs SB3s at Newport last year from a spectator boat in windy conditions. The Open 570 was clearly not in the same league as the Viper, and slower than the SB3. Where would the U20 have been in that line up?

Final data point? I know how unreliable PHRF is, Really know because most of my racing is PHRF. BUT the Viper rates about 105 and the Ultimate 20 rates about 145. That's a huge spread, even for our PHRF measurers.

Frankly guys, I dont believe you. The attraction of the U20 is that you have a little cabin to go below. Whatever it is you are smoking down there, it must be goooood!

#204 Amati

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 02:55 AM

Just out of curiosity, I ran the d/l and sa/d for a Viper and U20, both with 500lb crew- I assumed the lwl to be 18 ft.

d/l Viper 95
d/l U20 122

upwind, Viper = sa/d 34
U20 = sa/d 35

downwind Viper = s/a 93
downwind U20 = s/a 88

the U20 has a ws of 100, sa/ws upwind= 3, downwind 7.5 . Don't know what the ws of the Viper is.http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/calratio.htm

In a general way, it does explain some things relative to the two boat's performance

If you're interested,

http://www.ipass.net...at/calratio.htm

Have fun

Paul

#205 ducky

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:03 AM

couple years ago some u-20 guys claimed they were close to as fast as the m-24's at san diego nood! :o

#206 teener

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 06:15 AM

There were U20s and Vipers on the inside course at this year's SD NOOD so I got to see them up close from the 14.
Tactically speaking, we treated them both like stationary objects.

#207 GybeSet®

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:46 AM

I'm assuming you never capsized :)

literally speaking a 'stationary object'

#208 jh26

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 02:52 PM

I've read several posts suggesting that the U20 is close in performance to the Viper.

No disrespect to the U20 owners......but there is a real disconnect here. This would suggest that the U20 is faster than the SB3 and the Melges 20. I just find that incredibly hard to believe.


I have seen (at St Pete) a small wind range and particular sea state, somewhere below 10 knots and with chop, where the larger sail area of the U-20 is powered up and it's weight is carrying it through the waves whereas the Viper is painfully looking for more power and getting more hampered by the waves. In that particular range the U20 can keep up with the Viper. This is the wind range where every boat is a 3ksb and the driver doesn't smile much. Add or subtract a little wind and the Viper is long gone.

#209 Amati

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 03:56 PM

:o

a few more numbers; (again assuming 18' lwl, and 500# crew)

Melges 20

sa/d upwind 29.9, downwind 79.6 d/l 125 (Maybe sail with 2 up?- sa/d up/down 33/88; d/l 107 ish)

SB3

sa/d upwind 31.6, downwind 85 d/l 138

http://www.ipass.net...at/calratio.htm

#210 Amati

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 04:19 PM

and then there's the 5.7;
(assume 2 crew = 333lbs/ lwl= 18.75)

sa/d up 36.1- down 86.3-

d/l 89.73

http://www.ipass.net...at/calratio.htm


<_<

edit- 3 up (500#)
up 33.4 down 79.8
d/l 101

#211 jnye

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 04:48 PM

and then there's the 5.7;
(assume 2 crew = 333lbs/ lwl= 18.75)

sa/d up 36.1- down 86.3-

d/l 89.73

http://www.ipass.net...at/calratio.htm


<_<

edit- 3 up (500#)
up 33.4' down 79.8
d/l 101

This has been done. Focussing on the M20/SB3/Viper since that's been the bulk of this thread...
Attached File  20_Foot_Sportboat_Comparisons.pdf   10.11KB   25 downloads
Drives home the point how different the boats are. Most telling statistic to me is that while the Viper has a relatively high (among this group) upwind SA/D, the ballast (including crew weight) to displacement values between the Viper and M20 are relativly close. Then you have to factor in the fact that nearly 45% of the Viper's total displacement comes from crew weight (versus 39% M20 and 35% SB3) that before you even talk about hiking, can be moved to the rail which makes the use of that weight more efficient resulting in a higher effective B/D.

#212 Amati

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:11 PM

ok, all together now: sa/d's first, then d/l Sorry, jnye, you posted while I was doing this

hope it isn't too redundant

.....................upwind......downwind.......d/l

Viper..............34.............93.................95

U20................36.............88.................122

5.7 (2)............36.............86.................89.3

5.7 (3)............33.............79.................101

SB3................31.............85.................138

m20(3)...........30.............80.................125

m20(2)...........33.............88.................107

be interesting to do a grunt analysis too, but got to get to work


:blink:

#213 schoonerman

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:11 PM

It's purely subjective from my part. I've sailed M24, M20, SB3, U20, Viper and O5.7. (and U24, M32, Mumm30, Antrim 27, FT10 in big sporties)

I've never sailed a Viper against a U20. I did the Huntington Keelboat Weekend last year in a U20 sharing the course with Vipers. The U20's were pretty damn close in performance. The Vipers are clearly faster off the wind but maintain higher angles to do so. The Viper's typically sail faster/deeper than both the SB3 and M20 downwind.

I'll stand by my comment that the U20 is faster upwind than both the SB3 and M20 (it's a hiker) and relatively even downwind, at the bottom of the course. The U20 will soak further than both of those boats. I know for certain the M20, when hiked, will be faster than a U20. Never got a chance to hike the SB3.

Of course I can clearly be proven wrong after Chicago when everyone gets to put these boats, head to head. Christian's event should largely put this debate to bed.

Also team Spinnaker will most likely enter a U20 and a Viper in the Huntington regatta this year so we'll get a chance for some definitive performance comparisons on those boats. With any luck one of the two new Bay Area M20's will come up?

All the 20 footers are awesome. Pick your favorite, buy it and sail the living crap out of it. Life's short....sail fast !!

#214 Amati

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:21 PM

The numbers may be a bit dry, but they do show all the decisions (and tradeoffs) that the designers and the folks who commission these cool machines make. I probably should add that when my wife and I drag raced the Viper in our u20, we were 2 up and the Viper was 3 up. Always liked the u20 2 up. More lively

Maybe there are some designers lurking who could make some remarks about the trade offs between these designs?

Paul

#215 Mambo Kings

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 06:09 PM

The U20 and the Viper are very different boats, each with their own great attributes. I don't think comparing speed and performance to the Viper is a very fruitful exercise for the U20.

I get uncomfortable when folks say " Vipers brag", but it was designed to do what it was designed to do.

I sailed the last 3 St Pete NOODs with both Vipers and U20s. Light air, medium air, strong breeze, chop, tide, no tide........the answer has always been the same. There is lots to praise the U20 for, but it wasn't designed to keep up with a boat like the Viper nor will it.

The U20 was designed as a great little multi purpose boat, and you betcha if schooner plans to sleep on the boat at Huntington......I'm crewing on the U20 not the Viper! But if its a drag race and the loser buys the beer, I'm crewing on the Viper. :P

#216 Yard Dog

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 06:25 PM

The U20 and the Viper are very different boats, each with their own great attributes. I don't think comparing speed and performance to the Viper is a very fruitful exercise for the U20.

I get uncomfortable when folks say " Vipers brag", but it was designed to do what it was designed to do.

I sailed the last 3 St Pete NOODs with both Vipers and U20s. Light air, medium air, strong breeze, chop, tide, no tide........the answer has always been the same. There is lots to praise the U20 for, but it wasn't designed to keep up with a boat like the Viper nor will it.

The U20 was designed as a great little multi purpose boat, and you betcha if schooner plans to sleep on the boat at Huntington......I'm crewing on the U20 not the Viper! But if its a drag race and the loser buys the beer, I'm crewing on the Viper. :P


An earlier post suggested Schooner wasn't getting much sleep on his U20.

If you see the boat rocking, don't come knocking.

<<Smiley emoticon>> Can't bring myself to actually do it.

#217 schoonerman

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 11:28 PM

The U20 and the Viper are very different boats, each with their own great attributes. I don't think comparing speed and performance to the Viper is a very fruitful exercise for the U20.

I get uncomfortable when folks say " Vipers brag", but it was designed to do what it was designed to do.

I sailed the last 3 St Pete NOODs with both Vipers and U20s. Light air, medium air, strong breeze, chop, tide, no tide........the answer has always been the same. There is lots to praise the U20 for, but it wasn't designed to keep up with a boat like the Viper nor will it.

The U20 was designed as a great little multi purpose boat, and you betcha if schooner plans to sleep on the boat at Huntington......I'm crewing on the U20 not the Viper! But if its a drag race and the loser buys the beer, I'm crewing on the Viper. :P


An earlier post suggested Schooner wasn't getting much sleep on his U20.

If you see the boat rocking, don't come knocking.

<<Smiley emoticon>> Can't bring myself to actually do it.


Let me do it for you then Attached File  INWORG_Emoticon_hump.gif   13.16KB   7 downloads

#218 Yard Dog

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:13 AM

The U20 and the Viper are very different boats, each with their own great attributes. I don't think comparing speed and performance to the Viper is a very fruitful exercise for the U20.

I get uncomfortable when folks say " Vipers brag", but it was designed to do what it was designed to do.

I sailed the last 3 St Pete NOODs with both Vipers and U20s. Light air, medium air, strong breeze, chop, tide, no tide........the answer has always been the same. There is lots to praise the U20 for, but it wasn't designed to keep up with a boat like the Viper nor will it.

The U20 was designed as a great little multi purpose boat, and you betcha if schooner plans to sleep on the boat at Huntington......I'm crewing on the U20 not the Viper! But if its a drag race and the loser buys the beer, I'm crewing on the Viper. :P


An earlier post suggested Schooner wasn't getting much sleep on his U20.

If you see the boat rocking, don't come knocking.

<<Smiley emoticon>> Can't bring myself to actually do it.


Let me do it for you then Attached File  INWORG_Emoticon_hump.gif   13.16KB   7 downloads


Oh, very funny. Emoti-sexuals. As if there wasn't enough trouble in the world, or on this board or in the emoticon world.

If the smile on your face lasts for more than four hours--it probably won't--but if it does, stay away from pencil sharpeners and leave the canary alone. And seek medical attention.

<<Smiley emoticon>> Still can't bring myself to actually do it.

E...con_hump.gif

Where do you find this stuff? No, don't tell me. I can see the dark side from here.

#219 schoonerman

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:19 AM

ok, all together now: sa/d's first, then d/l Sorry, jnye, you posted while I was doing this

hope it isn't too redundant

.....................upwind......downwind.......d/l

Viper..............34.............93.................95

U20................36.............88.................122

5.7 (2)............36.............86.................89.3

5.7 (3)............33.............79.................101

SB3................31.............85.................138

m20(3)...........30.............80.................125

m20(2)...........33.............88.................107

be interesting to do a grunt analysis too, but got to get to work


:blink:


for those of you who didn't get the latest revision of the sportboat spreadsheet....here is: http://spinnaker-sai...n2revision2.xls

#220 Bulbhunter

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 12:35 AM

couple years ago some u-20 guys claimed they were close to as fast as the m-24's at san diego nood! :o



I call BS on that one - Been doing the SD nood on a U20 since the 90's and not once have we shared a course with the M24's. So yes complete BS.

#221 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:00 AM

LOL! I am with you. I think the Laser SB3 is (if you average all conditions and same skill level sailors) going to be faster than everything but the Viper. SA/D and everything else aside...

Ill say it again...who cares what boat is faster. Heres the deal, they are all pretty slow upwind but even and fun tactically in big fleets. downwind they plane and go 15 kts! Yeah! If you want to go fast buy a power boat, a Maxi boat or a catamaran! I promise that you will be the fastest!

If we are still worried about PHRF racing these boats we seriously need help. All of the boats have a little niche but are essentially the EXACT SAME THING with different actors. The Viper guys have their cast anf script...fast affordable fun boat (and they are growing, fast!). We all know the Melges game, fun boats, fleet development but very expensive to buy and maintain. I really liked the SB3 and and Open 5.7 guys in Chicago, also great people! At the end of the day...its not about the boat its about the people who choose to buy them...and partially about the people who build and sell them.

If you really want to get into this, the SB3...DOMINATES...all of the other classes in terms of overall success. It will take many years to catch them in any scenario. The Viper and U20 are basically second although the Viper has tremendous momentum. In North America (which matters perhaps most) its probably now Viper by a mile, followed by the U20, Open 5.7 (15 boats in North America), Melges 20 (12 boats in North America, 40 in the world), Laser SB3 (10 boats in North America, 400+ in the world)...etc.

I think all that really matters is this ratio:

Cost of boat (all up) / number of other boats at various regatta's = value (Fun per dollar ratio)

Without doing research, total guess at the numbers here is an example...

Graded on a curve of course!

VIPER
30k / 30 (average boats per major regatta) = 1.0 FPDR (Fun per dollar ratio) A

U20
35k / 15 (average boats per major regatta) = .42 FPDR (Fun per dollar ratio) B

Open 5.7
25k / 6 (average boats per major regatta) = .24 (Fun per dollar ratio) C+

M20
50k / 6 (average boats per major regatta) = .12 FPDR (Fun per dollar ratio) D-

SB3
30k / 6 (average boats per major regatta) = .20 FPDR (Fun per dollar ratio) C-

Of many owners have or are basically buying futures in there boats, and some of them got a little discount for buying in early. But this is how it stands right now, and this is how I see it. It has nothing to do with certain boats being 9 seconds a miles faster than another in 15 kts. Who cares!

The Viper and the U20 couldn't be much more different and still be 20 footers (both nearly 21').

I do find them pretty close in performance with the BIG difference being the Viper planes in less breeze.


I've read several posts suggesting that the U20 is close in performance to the Viper.

No disrespect to the U20 owners......but there is a real disconnect here. This would suggest that the U20 is faster than the SB3 and the Melges 20. I just find that incredibly hard to believe.

I have never watched any racing where Vipers and U20s are on the same race course so I have no first hand knowledge but I've looked at both boats out the water and in the water and my disbelief grows.

Another data point is the comments from West coast sailors about racing between U 20s and Open 5.70 s, where the Open 5.70 keeps up with the U20 in stronger winds. I did watch Open 5.70 vs the Vipers vs SB3s at Newport last year from a spectator boat in windy conditions. The Open 570 was clearly not in the same league as the Viper, and slower than the SB3. Where would the U20 have been in that line up?

Final data point? I know how unreliable PHRF is, Really know because most of my racing is PHRF. BUT the Viper rates about 105 and the Ultimate 20 rates about 145. That's a huge spread, even for our PHRF measurers.

Frankly guys, I dont believe you. The attraction of the U20 is that you have a little cabin to go below. Whatever it is you are smoking down there, it must be goooood!



#222 Bulbhunter

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:01 AM

U20 and viper are not as far appart as I thought or for that matter what many of the U20 sailors expected after racing with the Viper guys in SD this past March. They started behind us and stayed behind us except for a couple of new owner U20's who spent a considerable time on their sides and brought up the rear were passed by the lead viper sailors.

I and a few U20 sailors all expected the vipers to end up mixed up in the U20 fleet having them start behind us. It didn't happen. I think a number of key factors came into play regarding this. Up wind no matter how you slice it both boats are about the same water line so are close up wind. Down wind the vipers sail hotter when the U20's sail DDW pending the wind say 10and under the vipers were sailing a whole lot more distance vs the U20. In the heavy air we had on Sunday I'd say it was experience that played a large role - the top U20 sailors set with little to no issues and had little to zero round ups there were only 3-4 of us that fit that category in the U20 fleet. The Viper guys had 2-3 boats that flew their kites with maybe one or two that managed to make it around the course with out a major kit washing. Give the viper owners a few years and they'll be much faster in the heavy air though the U20 I suspect will still continue to sail DDW compared to the viper.

As for the 5.7 18knots seemes like the magic number regarding wind speed and where the 5.7 really starts to come into its own regarding U20 or viper like performance - till then it simply doesn't have the horse power. Nothing wrong with that - but when comparing on water performance simply put the 5.7 needs wind to run and thats what it was designed for to start with. So no surprise there. Each boat has great characteristics - I think its great that they are the talk of the sailing world and we no longer see J/24 discussions - that right there should pull more people into sailing :-)

#223 schoonerman

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:03 AM

Good overview LS.

I agree...they're all good, each and every one. I've had a great sail with shitloads of smiles sailing all the 20's.

What we need to do, collectively, is sell everyone on the idea of sailing boats in this range.

#224 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:03 AM

Ill second that as a clear sign of crack usage. U20 =/ M24, not even close, ever.

couple years ago some u-20 guys claimed they were close to as fast as the m-24's at san diego nood! :o



I call BS on that one - Been doing the SD nood on a U20 since the 90's and not once have we shared a course with the M24's. So yes complete BS.



#225 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:18 AM

BINGO! If all of them had 50 boat fleets...it would be perfect becuase a selection would fit everyone's possible tastes! The challenge is that nothing ever happens that cleanly. Some of these boats are going to fail regardless of their merits.

The thing I am noticing about the Viper is that it has the largest fleets, is just about the cheapest, and pegs the meter downwind a little more than the rest (faster)... Hiking or no hiking, double the fleet size at major regatta's is a constant that makes a Viper purchase easier than the rest. This is tough to ignore. There is also a used market so you could be looking at 2.0 or higher (FPD ratio's).

I truly hope that the others can catch up...especially one of the non-hiking boats deserves to make it i the US. Im concerned that the Melges 20 is just to much $$$ for most at this moment. The Melges guys certainly can pull this off but its got to be frustrating at current. Im sure they envisioned a different scenario at this Spring 2009 moment. A decent used M24 is 60% the cost and good fleets already exist. The SB3 could be the right boat but getting started is a big, big challenge...clearly.

Who knows...If they cant all succeed then one or two will have 50+ boat fleets in a few years. Cheers to that!

Good overview LS.

I agree...they're all good, each and every one. I've had a great sail with shitloads of smiles sailing all the 20's.

What we need to do, collectively, is sell everyone on the idea of sailing boats in this range.



#226 Amati

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 02:28 AM

So where do we find sail area/ wetted surface for these little babies? 5.7 must have a lot of ws, judging by the case of the stickies in the light it seems to have....

:huh:

#227 teener

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:26 AM

I'm assuming you never capsized :)

literally speaking a 'stationary object'

I will admit to seeing a Viper spend over a minute on its side, they doused the chute before it would come back up. I have also seen a wrinkeled up U20 mast on the shore although I presume that crew stayed dry.
Tactically speaking, the wiped out boats were regarded as stationary objects just like the sailing boats except that you didn't need to worry about their wind shadows.
But that's beside the point. The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience

#228 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 05:26 AM

so long as there is enough speed to get your blood pumping every now and again, right teener?

#229 teener

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:06 AM

That's why we're not talking about cal 20s.

#230 EYESAILOR

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:24 AM

God help me - I'm reading Ludicrous Speed's posts and find my self agreeing with them.

Is anyone else on the Melges 20 email list like me? They are starting to sound a little sqeeky....not quite desperate yet.....but definitely not the aura of quiet confidence. Do we detect some pain?

First the price:-

" AUDI MELGES 20
The Audi Melges 20 is on the move from coast to coast as new customers are
taking deliveries of their new rockets! For those interested in getting into
the fleet - Melges will be offering a pricing incentive on the Audi Melges 20
- stay tuned and get ready to take advantage of a nice savings package.
Announcements will be released on melges20.com and melges.com. Check out the
latest Audi Melges 20 regatta photos on melges20.com too! -- "


Then the marketing copy. Its almost like they want to win the Oscar for marketing bs in the category that Laser so dominated last year. Here are some extracts from the write up for CRW that I was sent

"Three days and a successful ten race series super-charged the brand new Audi Melges 20 fleet, and the dock talk was simply electric for this milestone event.
A walk down the dock on Saturday afternoon, chatting with the Audi Melges 20 teams and owners was inspiring. They congregated like Formula 1 drivers after completing the China Grand Prix. Shop talk, tweaks, tricks, fine-tuning, debriefs, friendships forming everywhere you turned. Crowds gathered around them before and after racing, some teaming with curiosity, others overly-impressed with its sharp and super-sleek appearance. A true example of form follows function, speed follows performance, a distinct competitive-edge follows Melges"

China Grand Prix? Crowds gathering around? Electric dock talk? Distinct competitive Edge? Wow, wish I was there.

#231 KnockedDown

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:47 AM

"Three days and a successful ten race series super-charged the brand new Audi Melges 20 fleet, and the dock talk was simply electric for this milestone event.
A walk down the dock on Saturday afternoon, chatting with the Audi Melges 20 teams and owners was inspiring. They congregated like Formula 1 drivers after completing the China Grand Prix. Shop talk, tweaks, tricks, fine-tuning, debriefs, friendships forming everywhere you turned. Crowds gathered around them before and after racing, some teaming with curiosity, others overly-impressed with its sharp and super-sleek appearance. A true example of form follows function, speed follows performance, a distinct competitive-edge follows Melges"

China Grand Prix? Crowds gathering around? Electric dock talk? Distinct competitive Edge? Wow, wish I was there.

Jeez us that's some funny shit. And why would you tout that people were "overly-impressed" with the boat? Normally this would suggest the rubes were being awed by things inconsequential. Oh well. From someone who was there... what a load of crap.

#232 RockHead

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 02:37 PM

Then the marketing copy. Its almost like they want to win the Oscar for marketing bs in the category that Laser so dominated last year. Here are some extracts from the write up for CRW that I was sent

"Three days and a successful ten race series super-charged the brand new Audi Melges 20 fleet, and the dock talk was simply electric for this milestone event.
A walk down the dock on Saturday afternoon, chatting with the Audi Melges 20 teams and owners was inspiring. They congregated like Formula 1 drivers after completing the China Grand Prix. Shop talk, tweaks, tricks, fine-tuning, debriefs, friendships forming everywhere you turned. Crowds gathered around them before and after racing, some teaming with curiosity, others overly-impressed with its sharp and super-sleek appearance. A true example of form follows function, speed follows performance, a distinct competitive-edge follows Melges"

China Grand Prix? Crowds gathering around? Electric dock talk? Distinct competitive Edge? Wow, wish I was there.

Wow, I wish I were there too... oh, wait, I was! I musta missed the "crowds gathered around them... teaming [sic] with curiosity... and overly-impressed" on my down to the larger crowd at the end of that dock, drinking beer, sharing info & talking trash :P That's some stellar copy writing there, despite the misspelling. I can't write such sofistiacated fancy stuff!

I did stop and look closely at the M20 my first time down to their dock. It is a nicely detailed package for sure, with plenty of glossy, sexy carbon weave. Didn't really look that closely at them any other time walking past, once I satisfied MY "teeming curiosity" with a 5 minute look-over.

#233 1sailor

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 03:05 PM

Crowds gathering around?


Actually, the crowds gathering around were interested not only in the boat, but in seeing whether or not hammett was gonna push paul murphy off the dock for chatting with people instead of helping get the boat ready.

Our team enjoyed that part for sure.

There was a lot of interest 'on the dock' but I agree, maybe the ad copy was a bit over-stated. Funny though.

#234 Bulbhunter

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:05 PM

I'm assuming you never capsized :)

literally speaking a 'stationary object'

I will admit to seeing a Viper spend over a minute on its side, they doused the chute before it would come back up. I have also seen a wrinkeled up U20 mast on the shore although I presume that crew stayed dry.
Tactically speaking, the wiped out boats were regarded as stationary objects just like the sailing boats except that you didn't need to worry about their wind shadows.
But that's beside the point. The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


You saw a broken U20 mast at this years SD NOOD? Hmm? I sailed in that feet and we had no such thing. By the way the I14 sailors were not staying in the same location as the U20 fleet and neither were at the SD YC. Teener your starting to sound a bit suspicious. By the way there were a couple of vipers racing with Alum masts I didn't see them having any issues either. Everyone seemed to have a great weekend granted Friday and Sat we could have used a little more breeze.

#235 schoonerman

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:08 PM

The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


Good list Teener and should be the focus of everyone's decision when they are buying a sporty or any other boat.

#236 André

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:34 PM

The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


Good list Teener and should be the focus of everyone's decision when they are buying a sporty or any other boat.


You should put "people" and the "attitude of the class" as the first item on your list. I agree with the rest of the list.

#237 teener

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:23 AM

I'm assuming you never capsized :)

literally speaking a 'stationary object'

I will admit to seeing a Viper spend over a minute on its side, they doused the chute before it would come back up. I have also seen a wrinkeled up U20 mast on the shore although I presume that crew stayed dry.
Tactically speaking, the wiped out boats were regarded as stationary objects just like the sailing boats except that you didn't need to worry about their wind shadows.
But that's beside the point. The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


You saw a broken U20 mast at this years SD NOOD? <pointless blather deleted>

I said no such thing.

#238 Steam Flyer

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:09 AM

The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


Good list Teener and should be the focus of everyone's decision when they are buying a sporty or any other boat.


Agreed... but I'tend to put Quality & Features at the top.... it's the bane of my existence that there is no decent one-design class boat. Boats like the Lightning and the Laser piss me off with what a PITA they are, or various crappiness factors.

None of the boats that I've really really liked have caught on.... except until now, the Viper (and it's not a good match for our local sailing conditions).

FB- Doug

#239 Mambo Kings

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:25 PM

The point is that a difference in speed between the two boats is quite negligible in the grand scheme of things. Don't want to hijack the hair splitting contest here but in comparing these boats, speed comes in last place behind:
price
OD racing
features
quality
safety
comfort
convenience


Good list Teener and should be the focus of everyone's decision when they are buying a sporty or any other boat.


Agreed... but I'tend to put Quality & Features at the top.... it's the bane of my existence that there is no decent one-design class boat. Boats like the Lightning and the Laser piss me off with what a PITA they are, or various crappiness factors.

None of the boats that I've really really liked have caught on.... except until now, the Viper (and it's not a good match for our local sailing conditions).

FB- Doug


I think that it is a good list and for every sailor, they will come in a different order. BUT I would like to put "Speed, Performance and Sailing Feel" back on the list.

I have a personal, strongly held view that the mantra...... "As Long As They're All The Same".......is a slow poison for one-design sailing in North America.
I love one-design sailing and I much prefer to race in a large fleet of identical boats. I've spent 30 years of my life sailing in some old, slow boats because they were all the same. I even picked up a couple of NA championships along the way. The "racing" was good but in all honesty the "sailing" very indifferent. A good day on the race course was a good day. Bad race results was a bad day.

I live in a very strong One Design location. On the surface it seemed good. But I looked around me at the ageing demographic of our sailing community and the writing was on the wall. The youth was not coming into our sport like it used to. And no wonder, we were sailing very boring boats. We could keep our numbers up by concentrating in fewer classes and letting the weaker classes wither and die, but no new class was coming up to replace them. We kept telling ourselves "As long as they're all the same!" and we huddled in our Rhodes 19s, Sonars and J24s, watching our sport decline and the Townies, J22s and Corinthians fade away.

The Sporty Twenties can change this! I chose the Viper because it is my particular favorite, but it applies to all. It has reminded me of the sheer joie de vivre of racing sailboats. I can have a bad day on the race course (and god knows I've had a few recently) but I have had a GREAT day on the water. Its fun to race and fun to sail. Its exciting and every kid out of college wants to crew for me.

The Viper has helped re-ignite one design sailing where I live. Over seventy new people are sailing in our One Design racing association that came along as skippers or crew of Vipers. New faces that were not there before. Interestingly....its helped all classes. Numbers are up across the board.

Sometimes it works like this: Kid comes down to crew on the hot new sexy Viper. As we are putting the boat away, Joe is working on his Etchell in the yard, Joe wasnt racing because he couldn't find crew. The kid says...hey I'd like to race again next weekend if you'd like crew. Kid ends up spending part of his time crewing on Vipers and part of his time crewing on an Etchell. Win:Win.

#240 GybeSet®

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:42 PM

safety and comfort, sure teener, what do you suggest a grab handle at the porta-potti will sell a sportsboat, and easy reach to the shithouse paper ?

what v'640.org said, speed, performance, giant-killing ability

---------------------

now how many capsizes in the 14 made YOU a 'stationary obstruction' that weekend ?

#241 ultraracer613um

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:55 PM

Justin hit the nail on the head. This was the #1 factor in choosing a small, sporty boat. This was weekend we arrived at the local yacht club and within an hour had our boat in the water, ready to sail in a regatta. As intended I raced with my wife and 9-year old. Breeze was in the low teens and it was a blast.

You wouldn't believe the amount of interest we generated.. I had a mom come up (Sunday AM) and tell me that she thought it looked like we were having so much fun she spent two hours on the internet researching the boat Sat night after racing. She has two teenage boys and wants to get them involved in sailing. Three people commented that they thought the 640 was the perfect boat for us as a family.. who would have though, the Viper 640... a family sportboat ;-)

I also think that a lot of people were surprised that we were able to handle the boat as we did. At least in these parts the 640 has a reputation for being a bit "edgy".. we're certainly not great sailors but were able to disprove that rumor.

FYI - I think we were around 420lbs and were able to be competitive in a mixed fleet. Just bent the stick and went sailing. My boy trimmed the jib and was responsible for putting the pole in and out. My wife and shared time driving and trimming the kite.

Do something good for the sport of sailing... get one of these 20' sporty's and drag some kids out on the water.

#242 Bulbhunter

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:52 PM

Justin hit the nail on the head. This was the #1 factor in choosing a small, sporty boat. This was weekend we arrived at the local yacht club and within an hour had our boat in the water, ready to sail in a regatta. As intended I raced with my wife and 9-year old. Breeze was in the low teens and it was a blast.

You wouldn't believe the amount of interest we generated.. I had a mom come up (Sunday AM) and tell me that she thought it looked like we were having so much fun she spent two hours on the internet researching the boat Sat night after racing. She has two teenage boys and wants to get them involved in sailing. Three people commented that they thought the 640 was the perfect boat for us as a family.. who would have though, the Viper 640... a family sportboat ;-)

I also think that a lot of people were surprised that we were able to handle the boat as we did. At least in these parts the 640 has a reputation for being a bit "edgy".. we're certainly not great sailors but were able to disprove that rumor.

FYI - I think we were around 420lbs and were able to be competitive in a mixed fleet. Just bent the stick and went sailing. My boy trimmed the jib and was responsible for putting the pole in and out. My wife and shared time driving and trimming the kite.

Do something good for the sport of sailing... get one of these 20' sporty's and drag some kids out on the water.


No doubt! Our U20 folks with kids have been doing this for a long time. The kid and family factor is a very big + for these boats.

#243 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:12 PM

I agree with the comments. ALL of the 20 sports will make your kids smile, the non hikers as well.

I think the price itself is being understated too much. Affordability is a key to success and is another HUGE constant. A solid used market is a mega bonus as well. I wonder why more of us don't buy open 5.7's? Great boat, easy to doublehand, and low cost. I wonder. Is it a hiking or non hiking? Maybe I am high but those are sweet rides and are the most affordable in this space by far.

On the other hand the SB3 has not gotten airborn in the US. Maybe becuase it came in innitially at 40k? Everyone looked and said wow...but 40k? I'll keep sailing my 70 yr old OD boat. I did. Now it's significantly less...but the window may have closed.

These are all great boats compared to the 70 yr. old crap most of us have sailed forever...but they are still considerably more expensive than what many of us are looking to replace with MUCH smaller current NA fleets. The Viper has the advantage in every area right now. Marketing, momentum, price, broad grass roots success, downwind tingles and ease (sb3 was easy as well, just slow in camparison).

The only hope for laser and melges is to further leverage the "benifiits" of non hiking (there are some, maybe) but I think it's clear that people are not going to simply write a big check because of hype alone. Bottom line is that all that carbon loses something (for me at least) when the sb3 is still roughly equal around the track And when the viper can catch you from 5 back with 30 other boats it loses a little more of that sexiness.

I think melges would have been smarter (china build, carbon, spare no expense) to get the innitial price down significantly, perhaps 33k, until they got the fleet rolling. Instead they seem as
If they might be looking at alot of serious challenges in reaching the 24 like critical mass. It's a different market than when the 24 made it's mark. It's more
Competitive and I appreciatte that. I look forward to seeing how they continue to adjust the markeing an pricing.

10 - 15k more $$$ is the bottom line right now. The boat is no better. It just makes no sense. I would be impressed they brought the price into alignment and heaven forbid offered more for about the same price. That would definitly change the dynamic.


Justin hit the nail on the head. This was the #1 factor in choosing a small, sporty boat. This was weekend we arrived at the local yacht club and within an hour had our boat in the water, ready to sail in a regatta. As intended I raced with my wife and 9-year old. Breeze was in the low teens and it was a blast.

You wouldn't believe the amount of interest we generated.. I had a mom come up (Sunday AM) and tell me that she thought it looked like we were having so much fun she spent two hours on the internet researching the boat Sat night after racing. She has two teenage boys and wants to get them involved in sailing. Three people commented that they thought the 640 was the perfect boat for us as a family.. who would have though, the Viper 640... a family sportboat ;-)

I also think that a lot of people were surprised that we were able to handle the boat as we did. At least in these parts the 640 has a reputation for being a bit "edgy".. we're certainly not great sailors but were able to disprove that rumor.

FYI - I think we were around 420lbs and were able to be competitive in a mixed fleet. Just bent the stick and went sailing. My boy trimmed the jib and was responsible for putting the pole in and out. My wife and shared time driving and trimming the kite.

Do something good for the sport of sailing... get one of these 20' sporty's and drag some kids out on the water.


No doubt! Our U20 folks with kids have been doing this for a long time. The kid and family factor is a very big + for these boats.



#244 1sailor

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:43 PM

10 - 15k more $$$ is the bottom line right now. The boat is no better.



Ludicrous Speed, come sail my Melges 20 next weekend and find out for yourself. You may just go run for your checkbook and sign up on the spot ! We will have 7 boats. I'll call you in a few minutes.

Eric
USA 116 SuperFly

#245 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:57 PM

Eric,

Im down with sailing on your machine. Keep in mind that it's not just me I'm worried about ala "price"...its everyone or the average of all prospective buyers! Melges would benifit with a little better pricing! The 24 guys are looking at the 20...but not alot of them are buying...10-15k is a huge thing. The boat is priced wrong. Im convinced of it.

Its a little frustrating for me becuase I really want to see a sportboat take off in MI (and that does not mean the 24). Even though the M20 is the clear boat in our region at 5?...the momentum in the US is not clear yet. Its going to take a long time at the current price (See SB3).

I really want to buy a boat...

S-

Did you get me message yesterday? Ill talk to you soon.

10 - 15k more $$$ is the bottom line right now. The boat is no better.



Ludicrous Speed, come sail my Melges 20 next weekend and find out for yourself. You may just go run for your checkbook and sign up on the spot ! We will have 7 boats. I'll call you in a few minutes.

Eric
USA 116 SuperFly



#246 teener

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:58 AM

safety and comfort, sure teener, what do you suggest a grab handle at the porta-potti will sell a sportsboat, and easy reach to the shithouse paper ?

Like I said earlier, we're not talking about cal 20's here. I'm a sucker for big air, when a storm is coming through, I get out the wet suit. I've had great fun on days that have broken Stars and Holders. Ability to sail in the big stuff is important. And, if comfort were'nt important, than I'd already have an M24.

now how many capsizes in the 14 made YOU a 'stationary obstruction' that weekend ?

None that I would admit to ;) .

#247 GybeSet®

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 09:58 AM

Tactically speaking, the wiped out boats were regarded as stationary objects just like the sailing boats except that you didn't need to worry about their wind shadows.

now how many capsizes in the 14 made YOU a 'stationary obstruction' that weekend ?

None that I would admit to ;) .

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)

#248 schoonerman

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 03:12 PM

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)


So hopefully all my Viper sailing will help me keep the Alto upright when it arrives? Shit, the water's cold here in SF. :lol:

Attached File  alto1.jpg   82.08KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto3.jpg   67.13KB   34 downloads

#249 Bulbhunter

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 03:26 PM

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)


So hopefully all my Viper sailing will help me keep the Alto upright when it arrives? Shit, the water's cold here in SF. :lol:

Attached File  alto1.jpg   82.08KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto3.jpg   67.13KB   34 downloads


Is that the 505 like hull with all the new fancy stuff? I heard about that boat- looks like a great combination of simplicity and speed.

#250 schoonerman

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 03:48 PM

Is that the 505 like hull with all the new fancy stuff? I heard about that boat- looks like a great combination of simplicity and speed.


Yup, it's a 505 on chines :lol: . Cool articulating pole for soaking too!!

Attached File  alto5.jpg   98.61KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto4.jpg   94.91KB   23 downloads

#251 1sailor

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 05:18 PM

[quote name='Ludicrous Speed' date='May 6 2009, 01:57 PM' post='2263735']

Even though the M20 is the clear boat in our region at 5?...


7 SOLD now in Michigan-- a couple more "on the fence" and nobody has seen 'em sailed yet as our season is jsut getting started...

#252 Essex

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 06:09 PM

7 SOLD now in Michigan-- a couple more "on the fence" and nobody has seen 'em sailed yet as our season is jsut getting started...


well except for that one that broke its mast in michigan a few weeks ago ;)

#253 Yard Dog

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 07:42 PM

As a 6'2" 225 pounder with a wrecked lower back, I've never been uncomfortable on the Viper from 2 knots to 22, as driver or trimmer. Still, I think the class needs to get rid of the weight rule - it leaves uncertainty in the equation. You know the question already: "When the boat gets ISAF accredited, how can you promise me you won't enforce a weight rule that doesn't let me sail 3-up with my crew?"


+1

#254 EYESAILOR

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 08:31 PM

7 SOLD now in Michigan-- a couple more "on the fence" and nobody has seen 'em sailed yet as our season is jsut getting started...


Seems to be a pattern with the Melges 20. Buy 'em site unseen. ;)

#255 teener

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:38 AM

Tactically speaking, the wiped out boats were regarded as stationary objects just like the sailing boats except that you didn't need to worry about their wind shadows.

now how many capsizes in the 14 made YOU a 'stationary obstruction' that weekend ?

None that I would admit to ;) .

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)

No sense in settling for just one class. There will be more lead in my future but I'm not about to abandon carbon.

#256 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:46 AM

The J24. It still makes me cringe...

Class is still going well though! Poor bastards!

U20 and viper are not as far appart as I thought or for that matter what many of the U20 sailors expected after racing with the Viper guys in SD this past March. They started behind us and stayed behind us except for a couple of new owner U20's who spent a considerable time on their sides and brought up the rear were passed by the lead viper sailors.

I and a few U20 sailors all expected the vipers to end up mixed up in the U20 fleet having them start behind us. It didn't happen. I think a number of key factors came into play regarding this. Up wind no matter how you slice it both boats are about the same water line so are close up wind. Down wind the vipers sail hotter when the U20's sail DDW pending the wind say 10and under the vipers were sailing a whole lot more distance vs the U20. In the heavy air we had on Sunday I'd say it was experience that played a large role - the top U20 sailors set with little to no issues and had little to zero round ups there were only 3-4 of us that fit that category in the U20 fleet. The Viper guys had 2-3 boats that flew their kites with maybe one or two that managed to make it around the course with out a major kit washing. Give the viper owners a few years and they'll be much faster in the heavy air though the U20 I suspect will still continue to sail DDW compared to the viper.

As for the 5.7 18knots seemes like the magic number regarding wind speed and where the 5.7 really starts to come into its own regarding U20 or viper like performance - till then it simply doesn't have the horse power. Nothing wrong with that - but when comparing on water performance simply put the 5.7 needs wind to run and thats what it was designed for to start with. So no surprise there. Each boat has great characteristics - I think its great that they are the talk of the sailing world and we no longer see J/24 discussions - that right there should pull more people into sailing :-)



#257 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 03:53 AM

Thats really neat! Love the pole canter.

Is that the 505 like hull with all the new fancy stuff? I heard about that boat- looks like a great combination of simplicity and speed.


Yup, it's a 505 on chines :lol: . Cool articulating pole for soaking too!!

Attached File  alto5.jpg   98.61KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto4.jpg   94.91KB   23 downloads



#258 oldensloh

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 04:52 AM

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)


So hopefully all my Viper sailing will help me keep the Alto upright when it arrives? Shit, the water's cold here in SF. :lol:

Attached File  alto1.jpg   82.08KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto3.jpg   67.13KB   34 downloads

Schooner, I wanna sail that thing! I sailed the Gen III version on the Deben River in England, where Mike Arnold developed it. The AlTo is fun and fast!

I can help you crash it!

#259 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 08 May 2009 - 05:27 AM

As a 6'2" 225 pounder with a wrecked lower back, I've never been uncomfortable on the Viper from 2 knots to 22, as driver or trimmer. Still, I think the class needs to get rid of the weight rule - it leaves uncertainty in the equation. You know the question already: "When the boat gets ISAF accredited, how can you promise me you won't enforce a weight rule that doesn't let me sail 3-up with my crew?"


+1

Did Justin answer that one?

#260 Mambo Kings

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 05:00 PM

As a 6'2" 225 pounder with a wrecked lower back, I've never been uncomfortable on the Viper from 2 knots to 22, as driver or trimmer. Still, I think the class needs to get rid of the weight rule - it leaves uncertainty in the equation. You know the question already: "When the boat gets ISAF accredited, how can you promise me you won't enforce a weight rule that doesn't let me sail 3-up with my crew?"


+1

Did Justin answer that one?


The Rules
There is not a weight limit in the class rules.

In the Class Association bylaws regarding class sanctioned regattas, there is a provision that allows a regatta organizer to request permission from the class exec' to stipulate a weight limit for a particular regatta. What this means is that if someone want to host a Viper Regatta and ensure that women, youth and other lighter weight crews are competitive and/or encourage women and youth to participate.....then they can make that case to the exec, and get approval for a weight limit.

The Reality

The boat has a natural sweet spot for weight. You are competitive between 500 and 600lbs. Most crews aim to be between 540 and 580.

This is a good thing!
Remember that a key part of the Viper mission is to make a high performance sports boat "accessible" to a wide range of one-design sailors. Accessible means Price. Accessible means simple and easy for folks with a variety of experience and skills. Accessible also means we wanted a boat that encouraged all ages and both sexes to race in sportsboats. We didn't want a boat that required gorillas to be competitive.

It also makes the social scene way more fun. In the 80s and 90s, I loved the Etchells....but I'm sorry...the J24 parties were much better. Classes that naturaly require, or their rules require a mix of light and heavy folk make for a good time.

Examples in the Viper Class. At the last NAs, 22 out of 26 boats had a women or a youth sailor on board. Some boats had 2 and one boat had 3. We liked that!
When Clean and Simon came up, they had Mer as their third and they were very competitive. Do you really want to be part of a class where you have to leave Mer on the dock in order to be competitive?
When Rockhead and Schooner (two of our favorite clydedales) came to CRW to sail together on the same boat -----they really had to look around to find a lightweight third. Clean found a local college sailor for them - "the kid". "The kid" is now completely hooked/bitten by the smaller sport boat scene and telling all his friends to get into it. That's a very good thing.
When Hydrospear and K came down from Canada last Sept to the ACCs on Long Island Sound they were able to bring their 14 (?) year old with them because he was highly sought after by a heavyweight team. He is an amazingly talented junior sailor and won sportsperson of the regatta award.
I could go on....but the most important message is that there is a real Viper community and we are always networking our crews.....helping heavy teams find their lighterweight third and lighter teams find their big middle guy. Yard Dog, I could take your son for my middle spot in a heartbeat. In exchange I have a 120lbs lass who does a great job in the bow.

#261 EYESAILOR

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 06:58 PM

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)


So hopefully all my Viper sailing will help me keep the Alto upright when it arrives? Shit, the water's cold here in SF. :lol:

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Is that the 505 like hull with all the new fancy stuff? I heard about that boat- looks like a great combination of simplicity and speed.


Schooner,
Is this the boat that the front page Rondar pimpin' article said they had a sneaky preview of?
How much is it going to sell for in the US?
Any other sneaky insights what Rondar plans for the US?

#262 Essex

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

Well here's a few things taken from http://www.altoboats.com

Update: September 2008

Worth waiting for...the new AltO is now in production and available from Rondar Raceboats. The Southampton Boat Show and introductory price for the complete boat, ready to sail, is Ł8,995 inc VAT. Test sailing will be available in some areas soon, and can be arranged via: mike@altoboats.com

Update: April 09

You may have noticed the P&B advert posted on the Yachts and Yachting website on 23rd April entitled 'P&B back the new AltO'. In effect P&B will start fitting out and marketing the AltO in the UK and Europe. Thus the AltO will be added to the P&B stable of thoroughbred racing dinghies

AltOboat is proud to become part of the P&B racing dinghy fleet and thanks Ian Pinnell, the current 505 world champion, and his team at P&B for recognising the potential of this new class. The AltO price will shortly be added to the P&B website together with an introductory offer for the first few sales.

News of the US and Canada distributor will be announced soon

#263 schoonerman

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

So actually the reverse is true

maybe you need some practice on something with partial training wheels ( read small bulb)


So hopefully all my Viper sailing will help me keep the Alto upright when it arrives? Shit, the water's cold here in SF. :lol:

Attached File  alto1.jpg   82.08KB   33 downloads Attached File  alto3.jpg   67.13KB   34 downloads


Is that the 505 like hull with all the new fancy stuff? I heard about that boat- looks like a great combination of simplicity and speed.


Schooner,
Is this the boat that the front page Rondar pimpin' article said they had a sneaky preview of?
How much is it going to sell for in the US?
Any other sneaky insights what Rondar plans for the US?


Yup, that's the boat. No final price yet. I've spoken to a couple of people that sailed the prototypes and they are smitten with them. 18', articulated prod, assy kite, 1 trap, carbon rig with squaretop main, limited control lines for simplicity, GNAV and epoxy, post cured build.

I'm pushing to get this thing here asap as there's a grillion dinghy sailors who are looking for something fun, fast and easy.

Boat is NOT in production yet. They are very active in testing to make sure that everything is right. Will be a pretty tight one design class.

I'll keep you posted.

#264 Mambo Kings

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Posted 10 May 2009 - 03:50 PM

Well here's a few things taken from http://www.altoboats.com

Update: April 09


News of the US and Canada distributor will be announced soon



Sounds like the Schoon' is expecting to be part of that announcement!

and this thread relates to racing sporty twenties at Charleston because.......

#265 RockHead

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 04:24 AM

Well here's a few things taken from http://www.altoboats.com

Update: April 09


News of the US and Canada distributor will be announced soon



Sounds like the Schoon' is expecting to be part of that announcement!

and this thread relates to racing sporty twenties at Charleston because.......

Because it's a Rondar built boat and the topic came up while Schoon', PY & I were boozin' and ooglin' COC girls late one night.

#266 Streetwise

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 05:14 AM

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I finally sat down and edited most of my photos from Charleston Race Week 2009.


http://gallery.me.com/hyerstay


I may do some more editing when I get a chance, but I was ready to share now.

Cheers,

jason

#267 Your Hero - Ballsey kiwi

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 07:14 AM

interesting read

glad to see some objective opinions regarding all three boats.

interesting read

glad to see some objective opinions regarding all three boats.

#268 schoonerman

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 03:43 PM

Well here's a few things taken from http://www.altoboats.com

Update: April 09


News of the US and Canada distributor will be announced soon



Sounds like the Schoon' is expecting to be part of that announcement!

and this thread relates to racing sporty twenties at Charleston because.......

Because it's a Rondar built boat and the topic came up while Schoon', PY & I were boozin' and ooglin' COC girls late one night.


I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.

Yeah, IMO the Alto is JUST what the USA needs. Some modern dinghies that aren't skiffs....let us mere mortals sail.

Sorry for the hijack...now back to your regularly scheduled Roaring Twenty programming.... Oh yeah...one more thing...The West Coast Demo Viper has landed :D Picking up in LA on Weds and back to race beercans on Fri with a photo boat in tow.

#269 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 04:06 PM

I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.


Shit schoon, you should have seen the beach this weekend. I got whiplash.

#270 apexchaser

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 05:04 PM

I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.


Shit schoon, you should have seen the beach this weekend. I got whiplash.


Posted Image

#271 schoonerman

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 11:52 PM

I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.


Shit schoon, you should have seen the beach this weekend. I got whiplash.


Posted Image


I agree

Completely unrelated pic except for the small 20 footer contained within...really, it's there...down on the right...keep on moving, nothing to see there in the middle of the pic :P

Attached File  amy_reid_005.jpg   108.73KB   60 downloads

#272 apexchaser

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 02:12 AM

I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.


Shit schoon, you should have seen the beach this weekend. I got whiplash.


Posted Image


I agree

Completely unrelated pic except for the small 20 footer contained within...really, it's there...down on the right...keep on moving, nothing to see there in the middle of the pic :P

Attached File  amy_reid_005.jpg   108.73KB   60 downloads


NOW we're talkin!

Ummmm, wait a minute... what were we talking about again?

#273 Mambo Kings

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 11:14 AM

I told you we should do more 'fondlin' and less 'ooglin.' Wazzup with all the girls in Charleston. The place is off the charts with beautiful wimmen...from head to toe, young and not so.


Shit schoon, you should have seen the beach this weekend. I got whiplash.


Posted Image


I agree

Completely unrelated pic except for the small 20 footer contained within...really, it's there...down on the right...keep on moving, nothing to see there in the middle of the pic :P

Attached File  amy_reid_005.jpg   108.73KB   60 downloads


and the tagline for the pic , should it be:

Do Not Operate Heavy Machinery or
The One That Left You Wondering How You Got So Lucky ?

#274 Gregg

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Posted 12 May 2009 - 01:36 PM

Christian,

I am all set for the demo with my Ultimate 20, sounds like we may have a couple more coming as well.... What advertising plans do you have to get this out to greater Lake Michigan area?

Gregg

Actually - wake up!!

I am arranging a Chicago Sportboat Demo Weekend in june with most of the 20'ish foot sportboats available for demo rides. In addition, I have gotten commitment from Sailing Wrld to have a mixed sportboat fleet in the Chicago NOOD the following Fri-Sun. So get yer bum down here and try them out. This has been mentioned here before but here is a synopsis:





Here is your chance to come have a look at and try the hottest trend in keelboat racing in the US – the 20’ish foot sportboats.

In this economy many people are looking to spend less on racing sailboats and these boats offer exactly that, while also being extremely fun to sail – most people actually think they are much more fun than the typical spread of racer/cruisers. They don’t cost the same as a small house – indeed some of them are available new including a trailer, sails, covers, etc. ready to race from around $ 30,000; raced with 2-4 people and speeds that will put many R/C’ers in the 30-40 foot range to shame.

I just came home from Charleston Race Week where I raced on a Viper 640 in a 32 boat OD section. On the same circle we also had a class of Melges 20’s and Laser SB3’s. Our PRO nicknamed the circle “The Roaring 20’s” and we had fast and fun racing seeing boat speeds up to mid to high teens. But don’t be intimidated by this description. I crewed for a 65 year old gentleman from the Chicagoland area, who bought the Viper 640 and he had NEVER raced. So one of my crew – Phil - from Wanda and I were down introducing him to racing at CRW. He was adamant that he had never had so much fun sailing despite us not being at the forefront of the fleet, which we knew in advance given that the boat got wet for the first time a day before the regatta, he has never sailed with Phil and I before and despite having sailed for years he has never been focused on boat speed. Heck – he didn’t even know the racing rules or how a race is conducted. Talk about baptism by fire.



The program for the weekend looks like this:



Friday afternoon the boats will be put together and displayed on the waterfront in front of CCYC. Here you can look, prod and quiz the builders about the boats.

Friday evening there will be a live band at the club



Saturday and Sunday the boats will be in the water so you can try them out in real life



Saturday night there will be a band at the club

This weekend is also the CCYC membership drive so the club, Galley and Bar will be open the entire weekend so you can get a bite to eat and something to drink. I can almost 100% guarantee that you will sail/walk around with a HUGE smile on your face.



The boats that will be lined up are:

Viper 640

Melges 20

Ultimate 20

Laser SB3

Rocket 22

I550

Shaw 650

Open 5.7

Open 6.5

Mini 650 (maybe)

Longtze (hopefully)

And I will also put Wanda in the water to give people rides on a slightly bigger sportboat.



The following Friday-Sunday, I have arranged to have a mixed sportboat fleet in the Chicago NOOD where these little speedsters will hopefully be joined by some of their brethren – we might have a big fleet at the NOODS.



I hope you will all take this opportunity to come on down and try a new kind of sailing – fast, fun and affordable………….who knows – you might get hooked.

Oh – and did I forget to mention – this is free!



Cheers,



-Christian