[Viper640.org]

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.

[Gription]

apexchaser, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

from I-20 Westbound, having just crossed into Texas, towing The Stig (Viper #103) and Animal (Viper #102) on Ultraracer's ultra cool Viper Texas Tow Rig (pictures below).

What an awesome regatta! Thanks to the organizers for putting on a fantastic event. This is definitely going to have to be an annual pilgrimage. It was also great to see a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen since the Viper NAs in Marblehead last year.

Great mix of conditions, including "Baptism by fire" Friday, where we raced a brand new boat with a new crew for the first time in "dogs off chains" breeze (Woo Hoo!), to the lighter but equally fun tactical Saturday, to the breezy wrap-up on Sunday (ouch, my aching muscles!). We felt great that our results kept improving race by race, until we tore a big hole in the spanking new kite in Sunday's first race :( , and then sailed much more conservatively downwind (much to my crew's chagrin) in order to not blow the kite up completely... Oh well. Such is life.

Totally agree with Saltwater Cowboy about the Viper fleet getting tighter and more competitive as the weekend progressed. Mark roundings on Sunday seemed quite a bit more crowded and exciting, and we were all really mixing it up at the starts, which was great fun. Heck, we even had our first general recall of the regatta... :P I LOVE big fleet One Design racing!

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!
IMG_1138.JPG
IMG_1139.JPG
IMG_1141.JPG

Wicked setup :blink:

[Viper640.org]

Ludicrous Speed, on Apr 20 2009, 01:58 PM, said:

I agree with all points and especially 4, which I would have thought was crazy before this regatta. Your right, they could be fun in handicap racing and it is worthwhile to keep that in mind as the groups grow!

Somehow I doubt the Melges crowd would be willing to race with SB3's or Vipers. Melges SB3 is a pretty close game. If I did it again I would race with 3, lighter. We could hang upwind very nicely and with one less body, downwind would be closer yet.

Sails...NO DOUBT they could have more refinement although they were decent.

Ludicrous reminds me of another observation.

The Melges and some of the SB3s were being sailed by four up.
None of the Vipers were racing four up. Its a 3 person boat . The Vipe can be club raced by two people, but in a competitive format, the right weight is around 560lbs.
I have a feeling that the Melges benefits from four and the right weight is higher than either the Viper or the SB3.

I noted that a relatively lightweight crew on one of the SB3s got more and more competitive throughout the regatta as they learned the boat.

[Ludicrous Speed]

Thanks. Your observations make sense as well.

I would agree that the M20's had some trouble in gusts upwind, especially on Friday, but it wasn't horrible. Probably just steering learning curve more than anything. I saw them struggling in the lulls most of all. We had the ability to power up and de-power quickly...and that was a big advantage for us. Perhaps they were setting up to bent up. As the weekend progressed they did seem improve slightly. They are all on gen 1 sails pretty much. By middle Saturday the M20's were sailing pretty tough upwind with us although we could usually gain upwind 30-45 seconds each upwind leg. They would chew that up downwind pretty easily and then some at times. On Sunday they were going a touch faster yet around the track. It was really fun racing them boat for boat although I do think they will be faster than an SB3, if only slightly, once they are all figured out later this summer.

Saltwater Cowboy, on Apr 20 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

Ludicrous,

I mostly agree with your comments, particularly with the runs on the first two races on Friday. The Vipers can break free at around 11-12, and it seemed to take more for the SB3 and M20. Those races had more Vipers run down your fleet than any other.

Upwind, I thought there was one big difference, which you referenced in a post on another thread regarding gear changes. I don't recall getting near an SB3 upwind, but we did get in phase with the M20's a few times. When the puff would hit us, we could hike really hard, ease slightly, and just punch out. The M20's would just heel and push off to leeward. When it really started blowing in the last 2 races on Friday, I thought we made bigger gains on you guys upwind than down.

Watching you guys start was definitely an advantage. In race 2 on Sunday, the boat was biased a bit, and about 1.5 mins before the start, we were working on port to the boat end. We then saw a big lefty hit you guys, flopped over and started near the pin, and made huge gains.

[jh26]

U20guy2, on Apr 20 2009, 01:30 PM, said:

How did the viper talent compare to the SD NOOD viper sailors? I'm trying to get a sense of where things were based on what we saw in SD. I was really surprised the Vipers starting after the U20's were not catching us - but the conditions were pretty mild up till Sunday then it was full on 20-25 and the vipers were getting closer if they flew kites - same pending on the U20's flying the kite etc. I was pretty surprised how close the boats were in speeds also. I guess really hulls are 20ft long only so much can happen to make the performance different etc.

I can't speak to the SD NOOD, but CRW had probably the biggest and best collection of Viper talent ever seen in one place.

re: Viper vs. U-20, we've sailed on the same course at the St Pete NOOD and in light/mild conditions (read sub-hull speed and no real planing), the larger sails on the U-20 wins, both up and down and the Vipers can't catch the U's. After all, when it's stuck in the displacement mode, 20 feet is 20 feet. The main difference is the lighter Viper breaks out sooner and once there is a good planning breeze, it can carry it deeper. it would be very difficult to handicap these boats against each other without using wind-dependent ratings.

At CRW I was on a spectator boat, and the three designs were notably different looking downwind in breeze, even if they were very close in speed. The M20 sliced - like a cat. The SB3 sat down and looked very stable (but still had their share of broaches). And the Viper was more on top of water than the others. Per-captia I'm pretty sure the Vipers broached less - it's just that there were so darn many of them out there that you got to see plenty of examples.

[Charlotte]

apexchaser, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!

Can't wait to see that rig in Connecticut in September for the NAs!

[Yard Dog]

Reflex Sailor, on Apr 20 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

Yard Dog, on Apr 20 2009, 06:15 AM, said:

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?

Other than in a "my **** is bigger than yours" debate, the outright relative speed of any one class of these boats as against any other class is totally and utterly irrelevant - the adrenaline factor will not change significantly from one to any other. The one to have is the one with an OD fleet available for you to race in.

Yes, darling, I know that the design to have is the one with the available OD fleet--hey, I didn't just fall off an M 20--but as the preceding posts show, there is an interest in relative performance, and this was the regatta to see it. As for your big asterisk, a little more exercise maybe, cut back on the chips. Oh, and get out of Ireland.

Justin, thanks for the great and, as usual, balanced information and insight on the three classes. It is very helpful. Thanks also to Ludicrous Speed for your information. And props. LS dominated the SB3 class, a boat I don't think he had sailed before. I was a little rough on you last winter when you were apparently going through light deprivation in the Michigan winter and went off the reservation, but credit where credit is due. You can sail. Nice job.

The biggest surprise to come out of the regatta: how close relative performance is between the M and the L.

[Ludicrous Speed]

Thanks very much and no worries!!! I know that I can get carried away better than anyone. SA certainly has the ability to call out an out of line pack member.

Yard Dog, on Apr 20 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

Reflex Sailor, on Apr 20 2009, 12:04 PM, said:

Yard Dog, on Apr 20 2009, 06:15 AM, said:

So given the starts a speed comparison can be made between the Melges and the SB3. They are surprisingly close with perhaps a slight edge to the M. Given the finish times, it appears that boat for boat the Vipe, which started five minutes behind the other two, is considerably faster. Justin, do you have any quantitative speed comparisons?

Other than in a "my **** is bigger than yours" debate, the outright relative speed of any one class of these boats as against any other class is totally and utterly irrelevant - the adrenaline factor will not change significantly from one to any other. The one to have is the one with an OD fleet available for you to race in.

Yes, darling, I know that the design to have is the one with the available OD fleet--hey, I didn't just fall off an M 20--but as the preceding posts show, there is an interest in relative performance, and this was the regatta to see it. As for your big asterisk, a little more exercise maybe, cut back on the chips. Oh, and get out of Ireland.

Justin, thanks for the great and, as usual, balanced information and insight on the three classes. It is very helpful. Thanks also to Ludicrous Speed for your information. And props. LS dominated the SB3 class, a boat I don't think he had sailed before. I was a little rough on you last winter when you were apparently going through light deprivation in the Michigan winter and went off the reservation, but credit where credit is due. You can sail. Nice job.

The biggest surprise to come out of the regatta: how close relative performance is between the M and the L.

[schoonerman]

I too was surprised at how well the SB3 faired against the M20. Very different design philosophies in the boats but quite similar performance. I'm guessing the SB3's were3 at a significant disadvantage, talent wise. The guys/gals sailing the M20's were largely veteran M24 crews, best evidenced by their sailing style. I did talk to a couple of guys who were sailing the first time on the boat, but were clearly either pro or semi-pro's

I sailed a Viper and I just can't get this damn smile off my face.

More fun than you should have without being nekkid :P

In motorcycle terms, the M20 was the BMW, the SB3 more of a Honda and the Viper is the Ducatti of the bunch.

-------------------------

BTW...talked to Paul at Rondar. The two-boat trailer kit is coming out in 2-3 weeks. AND stay tuned to this forum for something completely different :ph34r:

 vipertow.jpg (267.08K)
Number of downloads: 15

[Ludicrous Speed]

As usual, very well put. I agree with all the observations.

Each of the boats has something special to offer.

Viper - Very Fast, simple, impressive (almost evil) looking, lowest price of the SB's and very popular right now...today.
My crew Stephi could not stop talking about how sweet the boat looked! I agree, its really sweet looking.

Melges 20 - Fast, simple, attractive, expensive & exotic (which appeals to many) and sure to grow steadily in NA and Euroland.

Laser SB3 - Surprisingly fast, traditional sailing controls (some may enjoy this versatility), extremely easy to sail well (forgiving), lower cost, durable and tough (this boat is "well built"), safe, very stable and comfortable in big breeze and waves (Solent), huge class worldwide (maybe this will matter someday in North America, maybe not?)

As v640.org stated, they all produced happy sailors, big smiles and that buzz downwind. No doubt the Viper and Melges have slightly more mojo downwind but its in the same ball park. I really hope they all hit it big to be honest. I would love to sail in more regatta's like this one! In fact, I think they all will be a hit after my experience sailing in this event. The Viper already is frankly. I really dont think you can go wrong on any of the boats themselves. All of them rock in their own way.

The whole non-hiking thing, new to me and probably most of us, was pretty interesting. It was hard to fight the urge not to hike at first. I almost jumped out of the boat thinking I had my usual hiking strap to hold on too. It felt funny for a while and if you heel up alot your basically standing on the deck foot hold with your heels which isn't always the surest footing! Over the first day, my brain slowly shifted to relying on the sail controls with the crew and managing the boat. Its a finesse boat upwind, for sure. Smooth and steady, drive carefully and aggressively to keep the boat moving. In non-hiking, calling the puffs upwind and down was extra crucial. On the Melges puff calling must have been life or death! It took some extra hard concentration upwind not to get knocked around in big gusts, or big waves (heels barely holding at times) and therefore get slow vs. your competition. Downwind, non hiking was not too much different as the boats do not really benefit from hiking when the breeze is up as you are deep enough not to get pinged. I can certainly see why non-hiking has caught on but is was not as relaxed as I had expected. It still took alot of effort and coordination, perhaps even more. The SB3 was still a very physical boat in the breeze. The loads on the asail sheet were pretty big for a 20 footer as well. Im not sure if your wife is going to enjoy that position in 15+! This is likely the SB3's issue alone with its larger rig and higher weight.

The main factor still has to be the fleet size, growth, etc vs. the cost but I think its going to work itself out just fine for all the boats.

I did not get a chance to sail the V or M unfortunately. Im sure I will get on a M over in Macatawa this spring. I really want to sail a Viper. Any events in the Great Lakes in 09?

Viper640.org, on Apr 20 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.

[RockHead]

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread. Thank you all. I wish someone who was sailing a M20 would chime in. I hope/assume we'll hear from 1D-J80 soon.

I don't have have much to add to the excellent comments above, other than to report that friends of the kid who rode up and down to Charleston with me reported that he had some friends on M20's who were very impressed with the boat and wanted one. The M20 does look really sweet. Quite sexy in the carbon and glass. Lots of nice details. I was sort of surprised that it was as fast downwind as it was in the breeze on Friday.

Of course cost doesn't often factor into a 20 y.o.'s thought process! This particular guy was racing J/24's but was seriously asking about finding an affordable Viper. He's got some dough to buy a boat of his own, and as sexy as he found the M20, the Viper was in his sights because of price...

CRW was a blast and a nice opportunity to meet a lot of Anarchists, though not as many as I could have/should have. My boats performance was no where near what I would have liked, but it was still a load of fun. Sailing with Schoonerman was an absolute hoot, right Bubba?

[KnockedDown]

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

[Ludicrous Speed]

That is some funny shit.

KnockedDown, on Apr 20 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

[RockHead]

KnockedDown, on Apr 20 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

Fucking hilarious!

[The Advocate]

KnockedDown, on Apr 21 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

Someone buy that man a beer!!

[onedesignj80]

Hi All,
Well I had a great time and I learned a lot. The one thing we should do is give a hand to the R/C, they did a super job and should be reconized for it.
Yes I did have rudder problems. My lower gudgeon failed after a jibe on the first downwind leg of race Sunday's first race. :angry:
I am very happy with the Melges support that I have been given. After we were packed up and leaving we stopped by Race Headquaters and talked to some people. Made a call to a Melges rep. he pulled off Hwy 26 and happily waited for me catch up (30 min) and gave him the parts and discussed what had happened. The support that Melges is giving second to none!
With regards to the preformance differences between the the 20's. The Vipers are faster period. The SB3's and M-20's are very close. In the big Breeze 2 last races on Friday it seemed that we were faster than the SB3 boat for boat in both races. We did not have any depowering problems at all. In the downwind legs we are clearly faster as it has been pointed out. There was only 1-2 SB3 that were pretty quick. The great thing about the class is we were all finishing on Sat and Sun with in 1 min.
I will finish this later as I have to start work. :(
Congrats to all the Class winners as it was a tough sailing in trying conditions.

[Ludicrous Speed]

Woke up this morning and was still laughing out loud at the analogy post. Freaking hilarious. I wish I was even close to being that funny.

Ludicrous Speed, on Apr 20 2009, 11:16 PM, said:

That is some funny shit.

KnockedDown, on Apr 20 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

[apexchaser]

onedesignj80, on Apr 21 2009, 05:13 AM, said:

Well I had a great time and I learned a lot. The one thing we should do is give a hand to the R/C, they did a super job and should be reconized for it.

Congrats to all the Class winners as it was a tough sailing in trying conditions.

+1 to both of those. A HUGE thanks to the circle 1 R/C who ran a really top notch event for us! and thanks as well to the organizers of CRW. What a fantastic time...

ODJ80, sorry about your rudder issues, and it's good to hear the Melges is stepping up for you. It was good to see you again and chat while we were derigging Sunday afternoon.

See y'all again next year at CRW. Let's really fill up Circle 1 with 20' sporties, and give the R/C even more fun boats to work with. :-)

Oh, and KnockedDown, you are one funny dude!

[schoonerman]

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread. Thank you all. I wish someone who was sailing a M20 would chime in. I hope/assume we'll hear from 1D-J80 soon.

I don't have have much to add to the excellent comments above, other than to report that friends of the kid who rode up and down to Charleston with me reported that he had some friends on M20's who were very impressed with the boat and wanted one. The M20 does look really sweet. Quite sexy in the carbon and glass. Lots of nice details. I was sort of surprised that it was as fast downwind as it was in the breeze on Friday.

Of course cost doesn't often factor into a 20 y.o.'s thought process! This particular guy was racing J/24's but was seriously asking about finding an affordable Viper. He's got some dough to buy a boat of his own, and as sexy as he found the M20, the Viper was in his sights because of price...

CRW was a blast and a nice opportunity to meet a lot of Anarchists, though not as many as I could have/should have. My boats performance was no where near what I would have liked, but it was still a load of fun. Sailing with Schoonerman was an absolute hoot, right Bubba?

Still Smilin' RockHead. My crew here is already coniving on just how we can migrate the West Coast Demo boat 3000 miles east for the Nationals, my son is doing everything he can to be a part of this effort, even studying to be part of this :lol: .....hmmmmmmmm.

Thanks again for the opportunity to sail with one of the best!


---------------------------------------------------------------

KnockedDown, on Apr 20 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

That is some FUNNY shit KnockedUp. True to a T...especially the hard tits part, but at least she's good arm candy :lol:

[EYESAILOR]

KnockedDown, on Apr 21 2009, 03:51 AM, said:

RockHead, on Apr 20 2009, 10:09 PM, said:

This has been a stunningly civil and informative thread.

Way too civil. From the Viper trenches the whole performance/adrenaline question is answered. The Viper is faster upwind and downwind in the conditions experienced at CRW. Upwind, the Vipe stays on her feet during the puffs and powers up faster in the lulls. Downwind the Viper sails faster and lower than both the M20 and the SB3. How do I know? After spending three days figuring out how to get around the other two despite their five minute (minimum) head starts, makes the point pretty obvious.

Here's my analogy.

The Viper is the beautiful girl you meet at the bar who turns out to be really down to earth and into sex. The one that leaves you wondering how you got so lucky.

The SB3 is the girl you pick up 15 minutes prior to closing. You're out of options and you've convinced yourself she's not so bad. Sex is pretty good. She's into it and grateful for the attention. You take her number figuring you'll probably give her a call the next time you're in town.

The M20 is the gorgeous gal with the perfect hair and makeup. You chat her up, realize she's a pro but decide, what the hell? She gets you up to her room where everything turns out to be "extra". Her tits are rock hard and the sex is perfunctory. By now you're kicking yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking.

And LS, you're deluding yourself if you really think the Viper's ability to catch the other two was because we could see how the M20s/SB3s were sailing and benefit from that knowledge.

Sorry for being so un-PC but its time to call a spade a spade.

Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.

[schoonerman]

EYESAILOR, on Apr 21 2009, 07:23 AM, said:

Classic Post. Laughed My Ass Off. SA back at its finest.

I texted the link to my hubby. We are thinking that our next boat will be a 20' sportboat. Its my birthday this week. He emailed me back this message:
"You will always be my Viper! You are beautiful, down to earth and great in the sack. And after six years I still wake up every morning wondering how I got so lucky".
Who says romance is dead? and how do I get a Viper halter top?

and oh yeah, this thread is far more fun than the "sold your soul for $ OTW anarchy". Kudos to all you guys in the 20'sportboat fleet at CRW. Seems like you all had a blast. Please can we expect a similar gathering in the North east this summer.

Hell with the halter, this is what he REALLY wants to see you wear. Your Hubby really is a damn lucky guy! Do you have a sister? :P

 viperthongyellow.jpg (32.76K)
Number of downloads: 7

Damn KnockedDown....you've started something suhweeeeet !!

[GybeSet®]

designed NZ, Made in the UK

[tweisleder]

Viper640.org, on Apr 20 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Okay......

The Viper is clearly faster in all conditions on all points of the wind than either the SB3 or the Melges 20. This should surprise no one.
The Viper is much lighter, and has a much more powerful hull shape. The Viper has far greater form stability in its hull shape which allows it to have a greater power to weight ratio.

Using the Viper as a benchmark. Here are some observations compared to the other two boats.

Going upwind vs a well sailed SB3.
In light and medium. The Viper will steadily go bow out. The SB3 hangs in very well and can hold a lane but the Viper will go forward.
In Big Breeze. The SB3s were playing their traveller and depowered nicely with their backstays and the well sailed ones looked well in control BUT the well sailed Viper punches out from the SB3 more quickly than in the light/medium. The combination of form stability, carbon mast and the ability to hike seems to increase the Vipers edge.

Going up wind vs the well sailed Melges 20s.
In light and medium. The Viper points a few degrees higher and goes faster.
In Big Breeze. The hull shape is quite tender. The Melges does not have the traveler and backstay of the Laser so I expect they were vang sheeting, nevertheless as a puff hit I agree with the earlier commentator who noticed that the Melges 20 slides sideways compared to a Viper as it heels over.

Overall I thought the SB3 had an edge over the Melges upwind but I would be interested in comments from well sailed SB3s and Melges.

Downwind:-

It seemed to me the Melges was faster than the SB3.
The Viper breaks free first (no surprise) and goes lower and faster. Both the Laser and the Melges point much higher to plane and they put their weight in the back of the bus. The Melges seemed to have more forward speed on the plane than the SB3.

Conclusions:-

The Viper:- The Viper is a more edgier, more performance boat. Its lighter. It embraces hiking. Its lower on the waterline. On the other hand it is also a simple and easy to sail package with less tuning options than the Melges and less controls than the SB3.

The Melges and the SB3 have similarities. Both are aiming at the No-Hiking sailor. They have taken two very different design philosophies and construction techniques to produce different boats. The Melges seems faster downwind. The SB3 upwind. As a result they split the finishes between them.
Downwind is the reason we like racing sb's, so that's a reason to consider the Melges, but then there is price to consider.

I cannot emphasize enough that both the Laser sailors and the Melges sailors were grinning. In all honesty, tough choice. Try them both and try them in a wide range of conditions.

Disclaimer *** I have not sailed any of these boats, but was present at CHRW, hauled out of Charleston YC and sailed on my M24***

In talking with various people about the three boats it is in my opinion, that you may not be able to classify all these boats the same any longer, except that they are all roughly 20'. In talking with some people on a Viper, they said it was fast and fun, but you had to hike very hard to make it rock and roll. It was a big dinghy that went fast. There are going to be people who want to hike hard, get two other good crew who want to / can do the same.

Now in talking with the M20 guys, they seem to call it a "gentlemen's sport boat" or a little keel boat and less dinghy. The M20 that won was driven by a father in his late 50's (i think sorry marc if I am wrong) and his sons (30, 17) and a 16 year old girl. They, as are the others I spoke with, are not looking to be hiking like mad men and women either by their feet or stomachs, but rather want a fast ride that is more tactical and less athletic. I was hoping to get a ride after racing on both boats as I am very intrigued with them, but it just didnt happen, maybe another time, but I would think this event will draw a distinction between the two.

Either way, it is /was great to see all of the new 20' and the roughly 75 sport boats under 24' at Charleston this weekend. It is obvious that CHRW is now the new elite "non grand prix big event in the US". I look forward to trying both and seeing more of this new generation on the water as it will be a great way to help get people back into sailing something that is fast and fun.

Travis Weisleder

[Viper640.org]

tweisleder, on Apr 21 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Disclaimer *** I have not sailed any of these boats, but was present at CHRW, hauled out of Charleston YC and sailed on my M24***

In talking with various people about the three boats it is in my opinion, that you may not be able to classify all these boats the same any longer, except that they are all roughly 20'. In talking with some people on a Viper, they said it was fast and fun, but you had to hike very hard to make it rock and roll. It was a big dinghy that went fast.

Now in talking with the M20 guys, they seem to call it a "gentlemen's sport boat" or a little keel boat and less dinghy. The M20 that won was driven by a father in his late 50's and his sons (30, 17) and a 16 year old girl. They, as are the others I spoke with, are not looking to be hiking like mad men and women either by their feet or stomachs, but rather want a fast ride that is more tactical and less athletic. I was hoping to get a ride after racing on both boats as I am very intrigued with them, but it just didnt happen, maybe another time, but I would think this event will draw a distinction between the two.

Either way, it is /was great to see all of the new 20' and the roughly 75 sport boats under 24' at Charleston this weekend. It is obvious that CHRW is now the new elite "non grand prix big event in the US". I look forward to trying both and seeing more of this new generation on the water as it will be a great way to help get people back into sailing something that is fast and fun.

Travis Weisleder

Hi Travis,

There is certainly a distinction between the Viper and the other two boats. We should celebrate the distinctions because it gets more people into 20' sportsboats.

The Viper openly embraces hiking. We definitely think that its fun. I'm 52 years young and will be sailing the Viper for at least another 14 years. Our oldest skipper at the NAs was over 70 and finished half way up the fleet. I would describe the driving position of the Viper as mildly athletic. From my perspective, once the designer of the Viper rejected the contortions of a "no hiking" concept, it allowed him full latitude to design a boat that is as comfortable to hike as possible. The massive 32" rounded tanks really support the legs and the angle of the gunwale is like a little seat for my bottom. If you like your sailing to be a little athletic, if you like some exercise on the weekend and you don't mind the glow of weary limbs after a regatta like CRW then the Vipe may be for you. Its a hiking boat!

Another curious statistic. Since the re-incarnation of the Viper, certainly since I've been involved, the Viper NAs has always been won by a skipper over 50. Its a voodoo that I was unable to break. I came second by a few points and a couple of bad tacks when I was 49. It was not until the following year, after my 50th birthday that I was able to land the big one. I am sure some young pup 40 year old will come along some time and break the curse but for now, the record stands.

At CRW, David Guggenheim came first. Stu Hebb came second. I'm not going to embarass them by asking their age but I know that David is over 50 and those that know Stu's many virtues......youth and an active gym membership are not words that spring to mind. David, Stu and I are past our dinghy sailing prime (massive understatement) but we still like going fast and hiking. The skipper doesnt hike very hard. The Viper is a keel boat. The kids that sail against us love the performance. We like it because we can still beat 'em.

Travis is right. The combined 75 sportsboats under 24' is the statistic that folks should focus on at CRW. It is the future of one design keelboat racing in the US. It will bring back people to the sport we love. It is the category that will turn around the declining demographics of sailboat racing. The M24 is massive and fantastic. The Viper fills another niche. There are other niches to be filled. Yahoo!

[ultraracer613um]

Gription, on Apr 20 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

apexchaser, on Apr 20 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

from I-20 Westbound, having just crossed into Texas, towing The Stig (Viper #103) and Animal (Viper #102) on Ultraracer's ultra cool Viper Texas Tow Rig (pictures below).

What an awesome regatta! Thanks to the organizers for putting on a fantastic event. This is definitely going to have to be an annual pilgrimage. It was also great to see a lot of old friends that I hadn't seen since the Viper NAs in Marblehead last year.

Great mix of conditions, including "Baptism by fire" Friday, where we raced a brand new boat with a new crew for the first time in "dogs off chains" breeze (Woo Hoo!), to the lighter but equally fun tactical Saturday, to the breezy wrap-up on Sunday (ouch, my aching muscles!). We felt great that our results kept improving race by race, until we tore a big hole in the spanking new kite in Sunday's first race :( , and then sailed much more conservatively downwind (much to my crew's chagrin) in order to not blow the kite up completely... Oh well. Such is life.

Totally agree with Saltwater Cowboy about the Viper fleet getting tighter and more competitive as the weekend progressed. Mark roundings on Sunday seemed quite a bit more crowded and exciting, and we were all really mixing it up at the starts, which was great fun. Heck, we even had our first general recall of the regatta... :P I LOVE big fleet One Design racing!

Now about that Viper Texas Tow Rig:
Ultraracer built a rack for his F250 to put his boat on top of the truck. so we've got one viper on top and one behind. We got off the water a little after 3pm yesterday, were on the road by 6pm after leisurely getting things packed up, and by alternating driving and sleeping in 4 hour shifts, and we'll be home in central TX by 2pm today. Road Trip, baby!

Next step, we're going for a tandem trailer so we'll have one Viper on the roof, and two stacked on a trailer. Three boats, three drivers, one tow vehicle, and the whole country within our non-stop reach!
IMG_1138.JPG
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IMG_1141.JPG

Wicked setup :blink:

Thanks! We sure did get a lot of double-takes on the way home.. The rig worked out perfectly. I made a light miscalculation in that I didn't take into account putting a pad under the keel on the truck bed - so the keel rode about 1/2" high (from being completly down in the boat trunk). Not a big issue.. just not perfection.

I have to admit that when we first arrived and sat the boat on the rack I did get a bit nervous.. My wife gave me a few looks

R2 is going to be even cooler - no need to tie the bow down yet full support for the boat in a skid-type cradle. The skid will be pulled, Casters bolted and turn into a dolly of sorts for running the boat around and rigging at the dock.

Viper640.org.. you could have followed us all the way home :ph34r:

CRW rocked!