Beneteau 36.7 North American Championship, Time to pimp the event and get you out here Options

[SailRacer]

the class VP is either negligent or cheating: there are no other choices.


Head on a stick I say !!





Sail safe - forget this type of OD.

[BECKK]

I applaud the owner of First Today for his act of retiring from all races and hope it will continue the growth of a great class.

That is a crock of shit, and this thing has really pissed me off. Not only did Gary Tisdale know that he broke the rules, but he tried to weasel out of it face-to-face with those protesting him by claiming something like "the rules are confusing, and in a state of flux." Meanwhile, any confusion in the rules was sorted by the unambiguous clarification posted on the notice board before and throughout the event. Tisdale knew, Tisdale cheated, and if it weren't for our crew noticing Burns on the helm of First Today and the presence of my trusty Sanyo WH-1, Tisdale would have gotten away with it. Even with all the evidence against him, it still took him ten days to officially retire from the event despite knowing last Sunday that he had no chance.

That's not honor - that's a little kid who only says "sorry" after he's caught. Tisdale should post a public apology in this forum as well as to all owners in the class, and he should resign from the class immediately to signal a new ethos in the Class administration that this has become a mature OD class that needs equal application of the rules to prevent it from becoming a laughing stock. By the way, Luiz has done a great job dealing with this, but there's a time for quiet and a time for loud.

At least this episode, which never should have happened, is moving the Class to make some changes to the rule in question.




Who is the jury chair that signed the question from Split Decision that was posted on the board?
One of the protests is attached.

[sailski]

I applaud the owner of First Today for his act of retiring from all races and hope it will continue the growth of a great class.

That is a crock of shit, and this thing has really pissed me off. Not only did Gary Tisdale know that he broke the rules, but he tried to weasel out of it face-to-face with those protesting him by claiming something like "the rules are confusing, and in a state of flux." Meanwhile, any confusion in the rules was sorted by the unambiguous clarification posted on the notice board before and throughout the event. Tisdale knew, Tisdale cheated, and if it weren't for our crew noticing Burns on the helm of First Today and the presence of my trusty Sanyo WH-1, Tisdale would have gotten away with it. Even with all the evidence against him, it still took him ten days to officially retire from the event despite knowing last Sunday that he had no chance.

That's not honor - that's a little kid who only says "sorry" after he's caught. Tisdale should post a public apology in this forum as well as to all owners in the class, and he should resign from the class immediately to signal a new ethos in the Class administration that this has become a mature OD class that needs equal application of the rules to prevent it from becoming a laughing stock. By the way, Luiz has done a great job dealing with this, but there's a time for quiet and a time for loud.

At least this episode, which never should have happened, is moving the Class to make some changes to the rule in question.




Who is the jury chair that signed the question from Split Decision that was posted on the board?
One of the protests is attached.

I am pretty sure it was Bill Thorpe the Chief Judge

[Charliedawg]

Hey Clean-

Maybe you can clarify an issue. The front page indicates that Gary and Melanie Tisdale are owners. If this is true, why is it that 1/2 of Gary's weight is declared and not 1/2 of Melanie's on their weight form? According to Class Rule 7.1, the owner with the lesser weight (Melanie @ 128.1 lbs) gets the 1/2 credit. Melanie's weight was not used so she can't be an owner. Either Gary is the sole owner or ....?

Cdawg

The rules were clarified in Buffalo (2 years ago) by a letter from the executive committee and technical committee to the owners - if you have multiple owners ( and both drive ) the weight of the lower weight owner is cut in 1/2 for the entire regatta - if only one owner drives - the weight of that owner is 1/2 for purposes of the weight calculation. In your example only 1 owner drove so the question is moot even if both own the boat.

While I disagree with that rule in that it allows multiple owners to 1.) either have a the ability to get spelled where others don't or 2.) enjoy a 100+ pound weight advantage over the rest of the fleet; it is the rule as it now stands

Cmb-

Class rule 7.1 begs to differ with you. This rule does not say anything about who is helming, only that if there are multiple owners, the 1/2 weight credit is applicable to the owner that weighs the least. If the exec committee says contrary, why didn't they change the rule? I'm looking at the rules dated 2/17/09. Is there a more recent version? Please cite your written sources.

Cdawg

[Peter Wenzler]

Whatever.

Why does it matter Eggo? What does the timing of the awards party have to do with it; other than the fact that awards were giving to the wrong people? I really think that sucks.

You my friend are simply a broke asshole who deserves what you get. By the way you were at the helm of your boat for the entire regatta. I think not, yet you filed a protest against someone who sailed more consistently to the rules than you did. Why don't you withdraw as well, cocksucker?

Clearly, you are not my friend. I am broke; temporarily. What does my financial status have to do with fair sailing? I may be an asshole, depends on your point of view I guess. I don't think many people have your point view. I never touched the helm of my boat during the GLC regatta or the NAC regatta; Doug Scheibner did all of the driving.

A couple weeks before the NAC regatta I asked the class techical committee chairman and class president for a clarification of the application of the owner-helmsman 1/2 weight credit because I became aware of a situation in a prior regatta where the 1/2 weight-credit was improperly applied. In response, the technical committee chairman had the following question and advise for me: 'As for the competitor boat that sailed and took the weight credit without meeting the criteria, why did no one protest them? A protest of the offending boat - for not following Class Rules 3.4 and/or 7.1 - would have been the best way to stop this from happening.' So, in this instance I joined another owner in filing a protest against the non compliant competitor as I had been advised to do so by the class technical committee chairman and other class leadership.

My boat, my crew and I have sailed consistently in compliance with the class rules.

I don't need to withdraw because I sailed in compliance with the rules.

I have never sucked a cock.

Sincerely,

Peter J. Wenzler
Owner - Beneteau First 36.7 - Blackbird

[12345]

While this shit story is morbidly fascinating like a car wreck on the side of the road perhaps you ladies might want to take this off to the 36.7 Class Site and create a Forum titled "But he did it 1st!".

Lost OTWA footage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Peter Wenzler]

You my friend are simply a broke asshole who deserves what you get. By the way you were at the helm of your boat for the entire regatta. I think not, yet you filed a protest against someone who sailed more consistently to the rules than you did. Why don't you withdraw as well, cocksucker?

You need to clean your fucking glasses. Doug was on that helm every single time I saw the Bird for the entire regatta.

Edit: Were you aware that Doug was the listed helmsman for the event as allowed by the class and not Peter??? Your sentence structure is about as easy to interpret as the scribbles of a toddler.

Why did he request that a non-owner drive the boat at the owner meeting then? And my glasses may very well need cleaning.

I did no such thing.

I am sorry, I didn't catch your name. What is our name?

Did you attend the owners meeting? You didn't? Ohhh. So, what there hell are you talking about??

[Shuck]

Does anyone know why the redress in race 4 wasn't thrown out? Zingara and another boat did protest the redress and won their protest.

[Peter Wenzler]

Why did he request that a non-owner drive the boat at the owner meeting then? And my glasses may very well need cleaning.

The class approved Doug as helmsman for the event. Take your bitch to them, not Peter.

Just sayin, Glass houses dude.

I live in a brick house. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Peter Wenzler]

I don't know Tisdale or many of the people involved here, and have zero to do with the 36.7 class. But the front page post and a lot of the comments here are pretty harsh. He broke the rule, he withdrew after the fact. None of us know what his motivation was, and/or whether he was aware of the rule. With all due respect, that was not a fundamental class rule, it was a clarification of a rule that was vague regarding a situation that would not normally come up.

Unless you guys can prove that Tisdale knew he was breaking the rule and did it anyway, give the man the benefit of the doubt. He may be a great guy, he may be an asshole, but smearing someone's reputation based on hearsay or innuendo is bullshit regardless of what you personally think of them. Sailing is supposed to be a recreational activity, not (edit) bloodsport. I have yet to meet a class officer or measurer that knew every rule by heart.

All of you need to lighten up, have a beverage, and let this go.

+1

[Darwin]

Great Shit Fight Guys!
<munches popcorn, swigs beer>
Better than Dawg the Bounty Hunter's daughter's wedding.
Don't stop now...

[Hippie]

Peter,

You are not an asshole. You are a gentleman of the sport. You ran your program by the book. You asked for permission instead of forgiveness. I raced against you last year at the Verve Cup in Chicago. Your team was tossed from the final race due to a protest. Right or wrong, you still came up and congratulated each and every member of Tried and True as did the majority of your crew. Sailing is a sport, not a game.

I have never felt bad for people who do not know the rules or pretend to not know them. That does not make me an asshole. But, I am an asshole for a lot of other reasons.

Peter, if you would like to join the Asshole Club I am still taking charter members. Seems that most lurkers and posters on here are perfect human specimens.

Boy am I glad to be me.

[cmb]

Hey Clean-

Maybe you can clarify an issue. The front page indicates that Gary and Melanie Tisdale are owners. If this is true, why is it that 1/2 of Gary's weight is declared and not 1/2 of Melanie's on their weight form? According to Class Rule 7.1, the owner with the lesser weight (Melanie @ 128.1 lbs) gets the 1/2 credit. Melanie's weight was not used so she can't be an owner. Either Gary is the sole owner or ....?

Cdawg

The rules were clarified in Buffalo (2 years ago) by a letter from the executive committee and technical committee to the owners - if you have multiple owners ( and both drive ) the weight of the lower weight owner is cut in 1/2 for the entire regatta - if only one owner drives - the weight of that owner is 1/2 for purposes of the weight calculation. In your example only 1 owner drove so the question is moot even if both own the boat.

While I disagree with that rule in that it allows multiple owners to 1.) either have a the ability to get spelled where others don't or 2.) enjoy a 100+ pound weight advantage over the rest of the fleet; it is the rule as it now stands

Cmb-

Class rule 7.1 begs to differ with you. This rule does not say anything about who is helming, only that if there are multiple owners, the 1/2 weight credit is applicable to the owner that weighs the least. If the exec committee says contrary, why didn't they change the rule? I'm looking at the rules dated 2/17/09. Is there a more recent version? Please cite your written sources.

Cdawg

The class rules issued before the Buffalo NAs said,
"7 ADDITIONAL RULES
7.1 The maximum crew weight (in shorts and t-shirt) for one-design racing is 1,550 lbs. without limit
on crew numbers and with the owner-helmsman counting as ½ of their weight. In situations where
the yacht has more than one owner (as defined in rule 3.3 ) the qualified owner-helmsman shall be
the one with the lightest weight. For racing requiring a weigh-in, a yacht will only be asked once
to do so, except when a substitute crewmember joins the crew aboard. At that time, only the
substitute will be weighed."

The intent is that if you want to take a weight credit - only qualified owners can drive and if you have multiple owners - you only get 1 weight credit. The language was intended to prevent bringing a heavy owner and getting credit for him even if another lighter owner does most of the driving. They decided which one (the lightest) gets credit.

It appears they changed the language slightly but I do not believe intentionally - this quote is lifted from the "36 7 class rules August 23 2007 Final"

[Rail Meat]

Wow. This is some kind of shit show.

I don't know any of the parties involved, but Beer Hound sure ain't doing Tisdail any favors.

[obelix]

Wow. This is some kind of shit show.

I don't know any of the parties involved, but Beer Hound sure ain't doing Tisdail any favors.

I agree. Why would beer hound do that? Is he Tisdale's enemy? or is he Tisdale?

[Aqua Puttana]

Well Clean,
You chased me away from SA once before, but I wandered back.

I think your use of the front page in this latest 36.7 drama is way over the line even for SA. The Ed can use "anarchy" to defend his site and operation, but when he allows you as one of his appointed minions to abuse the privilege of reporting as much as you did this time there's enough reason for me to find other amusements. Forum comments are one thing. Front page is something else whether you want to admit it or not. Even "underground" success comes with responsibilities Ed.

Yes, I consider myself a good friend of Gary. No, that isn't why this front page B.S. attack bothers me.

Clean, I really did think you were moving up and along with your on-the-water reporting. I'm sure you don't give a rat's ass that I'll be gone, but at least it lowers my aggravation level not needing to read your all too frequent lapses into crap reporting and high school attitudes. You are single handedly working to make Scuttlebutt a very attractive primary source of sailing information for many sailors. Buh-bye. AP/vic.

[jeff carver]

Well Clean,
You chased me away from SA once before, but I wandered back.

I think your use of the front page in this latest 36.7 drama is way over the line even for SA. The Ed can use "anarchy" to defend his site and operation, but when he allows you as one of his appointed minions to abuse the privilege of reporting as much as you did this time there's enough reason for me to find other amusements. Forum comments are one thing. Front page is something else whether you want to admit it or not. Even "underground" success comes with responsibilities Ed.

Yes, I consider myself a good friend of Gary. No, that isn't why this front page B.S. attack bothers me.

Clean, I really did think you were moving up and along with your on-the-water reporting. I'm sure you don't give a rat's ass that I'll be gone, but at least it lowers my aggravation level not needing to read your all too frequent lapses into crap reporting and high school attitudes. You are single handedly working to make Scuttlebutt a very attractive primary source of sailing information for many sailors. Buh-bye. AP/vic.

perfect AP/vic!
Al, you will ever attain this gentlemans level of common sense nor the respect of his peers
Jeff Carver

[Madge]

So if I understand you correctly Tisdale HAD to pee in the minutes leading up to and including the start and as such was unable to drive the boat? Based on the facts found I am sure we will find Gary standing on the transom with his dick in his hand on Clean's video.

He RAFd himself. HE did it. HE decided he fucked up. Let it go, you make him and you look worse with every post.

MS

Squirrel, never said he was right, all I said was the rule is not clear. Calling him a "cheater" and a "child" after he withdraws is HARSH and not appropriate.

The pee reference is to anyone else who handed the helm over to anyone else at any time, and took the half weight credit. They should withdraw too.

Reid still won!!!

Congratulations to the Skipper and Crew.

Mr. Reid and I are members at the same club. Did he work hard to be prepared to win this event - yes. Does he read the rules - to the best of my knowledge - yes. He will push any opportunity he gets on the race course just as any other good skipper and crew would do, if given the opportunity. I have witnessed it, both on board many years ago and as a member of the Race Committe. It has not necessarily been an easy road to travel.

Is he perfect - no. However, the time and effort put into this season and season's past, resulted in he and his crew being awarded for being the best.

To run a 2 boat campaign (yes he has a zippy sportboat as well) requires a significant amount of energy and patience.

Well done!

M.

[MR.CLEAN]

Well Clean,
You chased me away from SA once before, but I wandered back.

I think your use of the front page in this latest 36.7 drama is way over the line even for SA. The Ed can use "anarchy" to defend his site and operation, but when he allows you as one of his appointed minions to abuse the privilege of reporting as much as you did this time there's enough reason for me to find other amusements. Forum comments are one thing. Front page is something else whether you want to admit it or not. Even "underground" success comes with responsibilities Ed.

Yes, I consider myself a good friend of Gary. No, that isn't why this front page B.S. attack bothers me.

Clean, I really did think you were moving up and along with your on-the-water reporting. I'm sure you don't give a rat's ass that I'll be gone, but at least it lowers my aggravation level not needing to read your all too frequent lapses into crap reporting and high school attitudes. You are single handedly working to make Scuttlebutt a very attractive primary source of sailing information for many sailors. Buh-bye. AP/vic.

I've seen something new since I started keeping my camcorder on the rail - boats doing circles or pulling down their protest flag only when a crew sees it and passes word back to the driver or tactician. That's not because they're afraid of seeing themselves on the front page sailing fairly and under the rules they accepted, and a sign that people have simply been getting away with a lot of bullshit over the years. Why does it take a camera to get some people to follow the rules?

That's why the story was front page worthy, combined with the fact that there was 28 big boats at a Detroit NAC pretty stacked with talent, the fact that I raced it, and the fact that whole boatloads of Anarchists have been subject to the petty drama associated with the class, with Tisdale being a big part of it.

Sorry you disagree and are leaving (again). Win some, lose some.

[isma]

Clean,I can't believe any reasonable Protest Committee would accept any competitor's video as evidence. So, are you saying everyone changed their ethics out of fear of your wrath? Really?

[Slow Ed]

Clean,I can't believe any reasonable Protest Committee would accept any competitor's video as evidence. So, are you saying everyone changed their ethics out of fear of your wrath? Really?

I was going to ask if he thought he was part of the boat load of talent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Rod Spearin]

Alan,

I don't think the tone of your article is justified. I believe mistakes were made and some have been corrected. Others will be corrected as we work through rule clarifications for next year. The class is a great bunch of sailors and owners, and the boat is a great dual purpose boat that has seen the type of growth it probably never expected. This has created a good problem in that the rules didn't clarify things quickly enough as owners wondered (and some checked) whether changes could be made to the boat, or how the owner driver credit worked.

I believe we will work these out, but not through this forum. I like the owner-driver approach. I have a long way to go to improve my driving skills in the breeze we had at NA's.

On a related point, I think some of what you have done through OTWA has just been fantastic. It can help grow the interest in the sport (as you have told me is your goal). Your reporting approach, however, works against your goal (in my opinion). I continue to respect Gary and the program he has, and the way he has dealt with this issue. Trying to paint individuals as villains in the one-sided way your article appeared is not right and not helpful.

Rod

[MR.CLEAN]

Clean,I can't believe any reasonable Protest Committee would accept any competitor's video as evidence. So, are you saying everyone changed their ethics out of fear of your wrath? Really?

More than one protest committee has already accepted OTW Anarchy videos as evidence. People with brains on a protest committee know that a properly verified video is valid evidence for things that it is unquestionably capable of proving. They'd look like complete idiots if they made a decision that was provably wrong and the evidence would eventually make it into the public domain. And the evidence already being on YouTube when protests happen makes it pretty easy for PCs to just watch it themselves.

[inhiding]

" I continue to respect Gary and the program he has, and the way he has dealt with this issue.."

Sorry, no dice.......He did not deal with the issue, he created it. The other competitors and the protest committee "dealt" with it.

[Tom Ray]

Clean is getting worse but it's funny and he was basically correct- the class VP is either negligent or cheating: there are no other choices.

There is a big difference though - negligence is not cheating, even if rules are broken. Personally I find it hard to believe that he didn't know - at best, he knew he was walking a fine line - but I'm give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

You guys are ignoring the possibility that during each start, an unexpected situation aboard required the attention of the owner, and he handed off the helm temporarily as allowed by the rules.

That possibility is way too funny to ignore, and I think we should discuss it at length. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)