[us7070]

firstly - it's interesting that clean can't just disagree with people - he has to find a reason to dislike them (age?) and insult them.

Quote

I'm not talking about the old school folks that don't think PR matters, nor all the wizened elders that believe that their only job is to run a good regatta for the folks who show up on the line. I have neither time nor respect for those people - they will either adapt or die, and hopefully their archaic attitude will die along with them.

anyway, getting beyond the childish insults, perhaps we can discuss the issues....

i have previously said that i don't believe the is much of a market for live coverage of sailing events, most sailors i know are kind of like me, in that they prefer doing to watching. i may be a bit extreme - i don't really follow any professional sports - i almost never watch sports on TV, even the ones i like to do - tennis, soccer, etc. i did watch a bit of the Tour de France, and i do watch some of the world cup, but that's it.

but - prove me wrong - show me the big audience..


the primary problem i have with striving for media (TV, or online video) coverage of sailboat racing is that I believe that the type of racing we do now is entirely unsuited for live video coverage for a mass audience, and that if we go down this road, we will end up with events that "need" revenue from media coverage.

why is this bad?

because it will force changes in the way we practice our sport, that i do not want to see, and that i think the majority of sailboat racers do not want to see.

in particular, it could drive a change away from windward-leeward racing to a more spectator-friendly format -like slalom racing for example, that will simply not be as interesting to participate in.

i am much more concerned about having sailboat racing remain a great participatory sport, than i am with more media coverage.


So..., why is windward-leeward racing unsuited for TV/video coverage for a mass audience?


for a lot of reasons, but one of the main reasons is that it's very difficult to tell who's leading a race, who's in second place, etc. a boat can go way left, and another way right, and be a mile apart, and be equal!!!

then, if one boat manages to pull ahead by a length or two - it's very difficult to actually see it, and the "pass" has no drama - it's boring.

yes, i've seen the ladder rungs on match-racing coverage, - i don't think it works very well for two boats, and would be worse for a whole fleet.


mass coverage needs drama..., it needs one competitor right next to the other - so that when one passes the other it's exciting.


windward-leeward racing will just not provide this kind of drama - sure you might get sailboat racers to watch (not many i suspect), but not a "mass" audience. slalom racing could provide this drama, but would not be as fun to participate in. I like the tactical aspect of windward/leeward racing. i should note that i have done slalom racing on windsurfers, and it is fun, but it's not what i'm looking for in sailboat racing.


so, in pushing for big time media coverage, you are (perhaps unwittingly) opening for very fundamental changes in the way the game is played. i happen to like the way the game is played now.

[born2sail]

Props to CGRA. But no congrats can be complete without mentioning the Poes, Kerry, Amy, Wyatt and Edgar :lol:

[C2D]

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.? Many in the audience can not or does not play the sport and I would go so far as to say that a good majority of them do not understand the rules of nor strategies going on in these games. Some think baseball is too boring to watch; well it's because they are not paying attention. Yet, thousands show up and hundreds of thousands watch on TV. It's about the home town team or their school alma mater or their personal hero. It's a 'we vs. they' mindset. How is it that French and other European countries turn out in droves to major sailing events? Because of the hero status they empart upon their sailors.

Granted, I too, would rather be there on the water, just like I prefer to be at a ball game, than to see it in pictures/TV. Because the whole scope of the action and venue can not be captured in a single or multiple shots. But, since I can not travel to all the venues, I want to see it on TV.

Where there are people, there will always be advertisement and sponsorship.

The biggest part of the problem lies in the size of the venue and coverage of the live action on and broadcasting from the water. The above team sports are all nicely condensed into an area that is coverable by current technology. Where as, most regattas take up miles of water and so you can not see the left vs the right, nor the depth and guage between boats captured in a camera shot. Does that mean the sport needs to change to accomadate? Possibly; football and baseball have certainly been changed to accomadate TV coverage. Technology will have to advance further to provide coverage equal to that of other major sports, on such an venue expanse that does not loose the viewer. There is excitment to be captured on the water and on the boats, if only it can be seen by the viewer.

But, have we also already lost the 'we vs. they' aspect for whom to cheer for/against within sailing? Heck, sailors don't really cheer against each other, as we are more inclined to help and encourage each other. Granted, much of sailing is individual, as team crews are so much in flux. But, so are football/baseball teams. The international blending of crews and boats makes it difficult to cheer for the home team, especially when so many teams/boats/campaigns do not last for more than a few seasons or regattas.

So, are we left with only our heros?


I'd like to see more coverage. 'If you build it, they will come.'

My $0.02

Cheers

[marian]

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

How is it that French and other European countries turn out in droves to major sailing events? Because of the hero status they empart upon their sailors.

The French only turn out in droves to watch the start and finish of ocean racing events.

[B.J. Porter]

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.? Many in the audience can not or does not play the sport and I would go so far as to say that a good majority of them do not understand the rules of nor strategies going on in these games. Some think baseball is too boring to watch; well it's because they are not paying attention. Yet, thousands show up and hundreds of thousands watch on TV.

Could be because most of us played those sports to some extent as kids and gained some appreciation for them, even if it was only in the back yard and we sucked at it.

[TheShark]

It's the cheerleaders and sideline entertainment coupled with wrecks of various types that draw the audiences.

[Remodel]

marian, on Aug 28 2009, 06:04 PM, said:

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

How is it that French and other European countries turn out in droves to major sailing events? Because of the hero status they empart upon their sailors.

The French only turn out in droves to watch the start and finish of ocean racing events.

But how much news coverage do you get when the local yacht club hosts a fleet of 4 knot shit boxes for their annual Bastille Day regatta?

Clean misses the point that PR - good PR - and all the promotions and advertising costs money. Money that the average yacht club, sailing association or local Catalina 25 fleet just doesn't have.

Also, I have to say that I am ambivalent about the number of pros and pro teams competing at the local level. Yes, it is good to sail against the best, and it is good to learn new skills and techniques from the pros, but at the same time, it is appalling to have sponsors logos and advertising images plastered all over the place. Yes, there is a place for that i.e., the Volvo Ocean Race and events of that magnitude, but not at the Lake Woebegone Fall Series. Plus, I find that the presence of pros on the water leads to more and more pushing the envelope of the rules and more acrimonious protest hearings.

Sailboat racing has a long and wonderful tradition of amateur and Corinthian competition. Clean needs to respect that and work for solutions that include that aspect of our sport.

He also has to decide if he is a journalist or a commentator. He claims to be a journalist, but his reports often display certain biases that belie that assertion.

[Antony]

I think that largely one must take Clean with a 'grain of salt'.

To a large extent, I have found his commentary to veer to the inflammatory not becuase he truly has a 'real axe' to grind; but rather, becuase he believes it is the best way to gain the publicity he desires. It is a fairly typical tactic on the web these days. The logic is that if one can only please some of the people some of the time then go for it. Those that dislike what you say will tune out, while those that love what you say will read on. While a small portion will become raving fans and provide positive comments. The challenge is that while it feeds the egos of narcissists, like Clean, everyone bores of them when the rhetoric slowly outweighs the value they produce.

The truth is that the vast majority of Race Committee organizers and volunteers give their time to events because they enjoy the process and events, rather than to feed their own egos or drive huge media value for the small cadre of marketers that exist within sailing. Frankly, if Clean really wanted to go out and make waves in marketing for a positive reason, he's going about it all wrong.

[MJR]

Antony, on Aug 28 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

I think that largely one must take Clean with a 'grain of salt'.

To a large extent, I have found his commentary to veer to the inflammatory not becuase he truly has a 'real axe' to grind; but rather, becuase he believes it is the best way to gain the publicity he desires. It is a fairly typical tactic on the web these days. The logic is that if one can only please some of the people some of the time then go for it. Those that dislike what you say will tune out, while those that love what you say will read on. While a small portion will become raving fans and provide positive comments. The challenge is that while it feeds the egos of msyoginists, like Clean, everyone bores of them when the rhetoric slowly outweighs the value they produce.

The truth is that the vast majority of Race Committee organizers and volunteers give their time to events because they enjoy the process and events, rather than to feed their own egos or drive huge media value for the small cadre of marketers that exist within sailing. Frankly, if Clean really wanted to go out and make waves in marketing for a positive reason, he's going about it all wrong.

interesting post, but love him or hate him, clean does call out people on bullshit and the back room politiking that has been ingrained into the sport for wayyyy too long. sometimes he says the things that a lot of us are thinking, but we dont want to ruffle feathers, look like an ass, etc. so in a twisted way, its undoubtedly usefull to have someone like clean involved in the sport...

another thing to remember is that if youre not making an effort to grow the sport in your local area, at least a little bit, then youre contributing to the ship sinking... good regatta marketing and exposure is a very important component to reversing the slow death of sail boat racing.

[Antony]

Peter Griffin, on Aug 28 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

interesting post, but love him or hate him, clean does call out people on bullshit and the back room politiking that has been ingrained into the sport for wayyyy too long. sometimes he says the things that a lot of us are thinking, but we dont want to ruffle feathers, look like an ass, etc. so in a twisted way, its undoubtedly usefull to have someone like clean involved in the sport...

another thing to remember is that if youre not making an effort to grow the sport in your local area, at least a little bit, then youre contributing to the ship sinking... good regatta marketing and exposure is a very important component to reversing the slow death of sail boat racing.

Actually, the only time Clean seems to bring it to light is when he's the one being cut out...

And I whole-heartedly disagree with your comment. I have limited bandwidth for sailing. My focus is on making sure I have a competitive program. If I took time to help 'promote' sailing it would take away precious time from my focus. Getting a boat to the line, investing in the sport, is my contribution to the sport.

[johnnysaint]

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.?...........

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Because they are all professional sports with the players on big dollars, with big dollar advertising, and the spectators can get close up to the game.

Yacht racing can only be viewed from a distance. Little white triangles that usually can't be identified.

[Barkley]

johnnysaint, on Aug 28 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.?...........

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Because they are all professional sports with the players on big dollars, with big dollar advertising, and the spectators can get close up to the game.

Yacht racing can only be viewed from a distance. Little white triangles that usually can't be identified.

You have it backwards. They only get the $$$$$ because the market will support it. Without the fans, nobody gets any $$$. I'm thinking that B.J.'s post has it nailed.

[johnnysaint]

Barkley, on Aug 29 2009, 02:00 AM, said:

johnnysaint, on Aug 28 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.?...........

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Because they are all professional sports with the players on big dollars, with big dollar advertising, and the spectators can get close up to the game.

Yacht racing can only be viewed from a distance. Little white triangles that usually can't be identified.

You have it backwards. They only get the $$$$$ because the market will support it. Without the fans, nobody gets any $$$. I'm thinking that B.J.'s post has it nailed.

well i'ts like the old question....What came first - the chicken or the egg?

The point is - sailing is extremely difficult to make a spectator sport. Like watching a marathon where the runners all head off in different directions and nobody knows who's in front until the finish.

[Slim]

Remodel, on Aug 28 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

He also has to decide if he is a journalist or a commentator. He claims to be a journalist, but his reports often display certain biases that belie that assertion.

I agree with your sentiment totally - but I don't think Clean has ever claimed to be a journalist.

[Flying Wasp]

With few exceptions, sailing and TV just don't work well without lots of editing. I give Clean some credit for the coverage (does he have a crush on Bora or what?), but unless you are a Moth enthusiast is anyone really watching every minute of those videos? Probably not. Your average football game has between 8 and 12 cameras to keep the action interesting and sailing can be a lot more dull than football and the playing field is 1000x bigger.

You want to make a contribution to growing the sport? Take some newbie out and get them hooked. I honestly think recruiting new sailors is where this all starts.

[Barkley]

johnnysaint, on Aug 28 2009, 09:04 PM, said:

The point is - sailing is extremely difficult to make a spectator sport. Like watching a marathon where the runners all head off in different directions and nobody knows who's in front until the finish.

Agreed. Completely. Unless you all have to pass through a tight channel with a big rock in the middle.

[inappropriate]

"have previously said that i don't believe the is much of a market for live coverage of sailing events, most sailors i know are kind of like me, in that they prefer doing to watching."

Sort of a sailor's voyeur thing... that just might have some marketing legs!

[MR.CLEAN]

1) I do not claim to be a journalist. Not interested in your labels.
2) CGRA proved that you can get solid media coverage with an all-volunteer group. It doesn't have to cost money - it just takes effort and finding the connections. Meanwhile because of their exposure the CGRA has been getting loads of inquiries from classes about hosting events there. Seems pretty basic, doesn't it?
3) "Media Matters" wasn't about the live audience, though that was stellar and both our audience and our sponsors were absolutely thrilled with what we did. Around 20,000 unique viewers watches some portion of Worlds, with hundreds of thousands seeing the network news pieces and whatever number read all the articles. The Shortt Supply guys had to upgrade their bandwidth because the front page link blew out their monthly storage limits. Plus T2P and Sailgroove, which surely reach a few dozen people each. You can say "there's no audience" all you want. You are absolutely, positively wrong.
4) This is not about "huge media values." This is about spreading the message that your class, your club, your venue, and sailboat racing is fun. Sailing can't pretend to have a million people ready to watch it - it's not ESPN material. But we expect over 35,000 unique viewers of our upcoming Melges 24 Worlds coverage, and that's just fine. That's more people than are members of US Sailing, more people than watch late night ESPN2 shows, and twice the readership of Sailing World. For one event. It certainly makes sponsors happy, and from the emails we get and the great shit people say to me at events, we should keep at it.

Do you think we should stop? Do you think clubs like CGRA should stop looking for media attention?

[WunHungLo]

Some media coverage obviously works for certain formats of racing and not for others. e.g.
- slalom windsurfing or kite boarding near spectators on shore
- speed trials
- skiff racing where there are a couple of cameras on each boat - it's fast and furious and there's some great TV coverage on European and Aussie circuits, mainly on satelite sports channels
- VOR or similar offshore where again, onboard cameras provide some great sequences.

As for local events, there needs to be a paradigm shift in what technology is best to raise awareness. Using one reporter and a video camera (ala Clean) for an event will still be unlike the stirring stuff you see on the skiff circuit.

The Wiki business model is perhaps the most effective and organic way to spread the word - collaboration, using frameworks of social networking software as portals for collaborator contributions e.g. You Tube clips, still pics, sound bites, commentary etc...

Sailing is simply so multi-dimensional and simply too big for a vertical approach (i.e. one reporter at an event + 1 camera and a sequential publishing approach to getting it broadcast) and needs peer networks to cover the scope.

All that technology exists now and is being actively used by our kids. So if we want to excite kids, we need to use the wiki model they are all tapped into with access to media and an ability to easily contribute media from more than single reporters as a source.

If yacht and smaller sailing clubs can buy into this paradigm using examples that Google, Boeing or P&G have successfully used, then it will happen naturally. As sailing is a visual sport, a lot of it will depend on access to the mini video cameras. Even if only the biggest yachts clubs could afford it and bought some of the gear, and put it on 3 or 4 boats in a major regatta (and it could be skiffs, small dinghies, keel boats, sailboards, multihulls etc..), and posted it to a social network via You Tube, the infection will start. It's probably a better investment in trying to bring people into the sport than traditional approaches that don't seem to work.

Can you imagine if St Francis had 3 cameras on the top 3 5O's at the worlds what great coverage we'd have?

We need to update our thinking on this and not get stuck in the TV mainstream coverage model and roving reporters. It won't fly and will unlikely ever take an amateur sport into mainstream media coverage.

[C2D]

Barkley, on Aug 28 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

johnnysaint, on Aug 28 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

C2D, on Aug 28 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

Then why is there such a hugh media following and coverage for football, baseball, tennis, soccer, etc.?...........

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Because they are all professional sports with the players on big dollars, with big dollar advertising, and the spectators can get close up to the game.

Yacht racing can only be viewed from a distance. Little white triangles that usually can't be identified.

You have it backwards. They only get the $$$$$ because the market will support it. Without the fans, nobody gets any $$$. I'm thinking that B.J.'s post has it nailed.

BINGO!!

Agreed.

[haha!]

1. To those kvetching about Clean being a commentator or a journalist: try to keep in mind that he's actively looking for ways to make the sport reach more people and thereby grow the sport.

2. To those lining Clean up for sainthood: don't forget that Clean talking about better regatta promotion is in his own self interest since Blocksail Media isn't a charity.

[BigUnit]

MR.CLEAN, on Aug 29 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

1) I do not claim to be a journalist. Not interested in your labels.
2) CGRA proved that you can get solid media coverage with an all-volunteer group. It doesn't have to cost money - it just takes effort and finding the connections. Meanwhile because of their exposure the CGRA has been getting loads of inquiries from classes about hosting events there. Seems pretty basic, doesn't it?
3) "Media Matters" wasn't about the live audience, though that was stellar and both our audience and our sponsors were absolutely thrilled with what we did. Around 20,000 unique viewers watches some portion of Worlds, with hundreds of thousands seeing the network news pieces and whatever number read all the articles. The Shortt Supply guys had to upgrade their bandwidth because the front page link blew out their monthly storage limits. Plus T2P and Sailgroove, which surely reach a few dozen people each. You can say "there's no audience" all you want. You are absolutely, positively wrong.
4) This is not about "huge media values." This is about spreading the message that your class, your club, your venue, and sailboat racing is fun. Sailing can't pretend to have a million people ready to watch it - it's not ESPN material. But we expect over 35,000 unique viewers of our upcoming Melges 24 Worlds coverage, and that's just fine. That's more people than are members of US Sailing, more people than watch late night ESPN2 shows, and twice the readership of Sailing World. For one event. It certainly makes sponsors happy, and from the emails we get and the great shit people say to me at events, we should keep at it.

Do you think we should stop? Do you think clubs like CGRA should stop looking for media attention?

20-35,000 people doesn't really qualify as an audience in media terms - especially on the web. It's really a niche of an already niche audience.

[MR.CLEAN]

Of course it is. But in sailing terms, it is plenty big to both satisfy a need and justify the expense to those that underwrite it. Especially if 5 or 10 of those folks buy a new Mach 2. Or 100 of them buy some new Patagonia gear. That's why it is so essential to figure out good ways to cover shit that doesn't cost much. As WHL writes above, this kind of coverage would be lame without everything the community adds - one camera does not do it. We need commentary, info supplied by fans scouring the web, pics from random sources, and soon, on board cams hooked into radio transmitters for live feeds. We're not far off it, but the tech is either not yet there or very expensive. But it's been that way since we started this, and it just keeps getting easier.

[us7070]

MR.CLEAN, on Aug 28 2009, 09:24 PM, said:

1) I do not claim to be a journalist. Not interested in your labels.
2) CGRA proved that you can get solid media coverage with an all-volunteer group. It doesn't have to cost money - it just takes effort and finding the connections. Meanwhile because of their exposure the CGRA has been getting loads of inquiries from classes about hosting events there. Seems pretty basic, doesn't it?
3) "Media Matters" wasn't about the live audience, though that was stellar and both our audience and our sponsors were absolutely thrilled with what we did. Around 20,000 unique viewers watches some portion of Worlds, with hundreds of thousands seeing the network news pieces and whatever number read all the articles. The Shortt Supply guys had to upgrade their bandwidth because the front page link blew out their monthly storage limits. Plus T2P and Sailgroove, which surely reach a few dozen people each. You can say "there's no audience" all you want. You are absolutely, positively wrong.
4) This is not about "huge media values." This is about spreading the message that your class, your club, your venue, and sailboat racing is fun. Sailing can't pretend to have a million people ready to watch it - it's not ESPN material. But we expect over 35,000 unique viewers of our upcoming Melges 24 Worlds coverage, and that's just fine. That's more people than are members of US Sailing, more people than watch late night ESPN2 shows, and twice the readership of Sailing World. For one event. It certainly makes sponsors happy, and from the emails we get and the great shit people say to me at events, we should keep at it.

Do you think we should stop? Do you think clubs like CGRA should stop looking for media attention?

the gorge is a special spot - i've sailed quite a lot there. it's a very media-friendly location; beautiful, reliably windy - even close to shore, and a small sailing area.

if i understand correctly, there were at least some slalom-like courses for the moths.

as i said above - i like slalom racing..., in the appropriate boat - windsurfers are great for slalom racing, and it seems that moths are too - although i doubt that most moth owners would like to see upwind or downwind legs eliminated.

most sailors - even sailors of relatively fast boats - enjoy the tactical challenge of upwind and downwind legs.

i'm more than a little bit afraid that if we get to a point where there is a lot of money - from media rights - available to regatta organizers, we will eventually be forced away from windward/leeward racing, because upwind and downwind legs of race courses are not that media-friendly - as i said above, you can't even tell who's ahead, or even tell when one boat is moving ahead of another - they could be a mile apart!

in windsurfing, it was always the case that slalom racing had relatively big audiences, and slalom racing videos are great, but course racing (windward-leeward racing) was not much fun for audiences, and the videos are not that exciting - even for dedicated windsurfers.

[johnnysaint]

Take a look at the farce that is the "Medal race" in the Olympics & OC World Championships. That is purely set up like that for the media. 10 boats in a 10 minute race to select the final "lucky" winner. Is that the way you want to see yacht racing go?