493 replies to this topic

[Heriberto]

Hello Jim,

I was wondering how you are going to attach the sprit? I tried looking, but maybe missed that.

[Jim Donovan]

i race on a 1720, a 27 foot sports boat. it has one winch for halyards back from the mast. It is ideal for putting the asy sheets round in a blow as it takes all the pressure off the sheets allowing you to relax a little. Other 1720s dont do this tho and apparantly we are a bit nesh for using the winch. but hey if it means my 50 year old mum can tame a mast head kite in 20+kts then i think its a good idea as ratchet blocks can only do so much.

It's not just your 50 year old Mum who will like the winch.
I've sailed with plenty of 20 to 30 year old guys and just when you need that 2 feet of sheet to come in to accelerate, they let out that pathetic whimper "I can't pull it - my hands hurt ".
We sail 3 races in a day in winds often over 25 knots, by the 3rd race the sheet kills your hands - we often switch trimmers, which only works if you have two competent trimmers aboard.

A good friend who switched down from a M24 to a Melges 20 admitted to me that his 20 still has this problem.

I've experenced the pain and don't want a boat with this limitation.
Are winches required on a D6? Only if you want them.
If you decide you want them later, there's a lot of room in the cockpit to screw them down (photo shows straboard winch mounted)





Go Mom!

Attached Files

•  Ready_to_Flip.jpg   78.77K   150 downloads

[Heriberto]

Just found where you said how the sprit would mount, in a socket, then tensioned by the bobstay. Now that you have gotten further along, how are you going to attach the socket?

There is a reason I'm asking (hint, hint, of course)....

[Great Red Shark]

Duct Tape. Lots of it.

I think JD was talking about a de-mountable prod of so fashion.

Jim - have you gone so far as to figure out how much sail you'll carry uphill ? - Curiously comparing the numbers on the newly-announce LS20 which see turbo'd beyond reason - eight-hundred-something lbs, and 360 sq ft - I was wondering how they'll do that.

[Roy_Race]

Jim, a quick technical question: During the construction, after laying the foam where you want it, what is the very next thing to go on? I've read people mentioning about skimming a layer of thickened epoxy over the bare foam surface and then applying the glass? If so, what's in the epoxy? Would it be say west with a bit of silica or microballoons or what?


And would it be:

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> lay on glass immediately >> pour laminating resin on top of glass and roller it in >> peel ply

or

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> allow to cure >> roller laminating resin on >> lay glass >> roller resin up through glass>> peel ply

??

[WCB]

Jim, a quick technical question: During the construction, after laying the foam where you want it, what is the very next thing to go on? I've read people mentioning about skimming a layer of thickened epoxy over the bare foam surface and then applying the glass? If so, what's in the epoxy? Would it be say west with a bit of silica or microballoons or what?


And would it be:

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> lay on glass immediately >> pour laminating resin on top of glass and roller it in >> peel ply

or

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> allow to cure >> roller laminating resin on >> lay glass >> roller resin up through glass>> peel ply

??

I've done a layup like this for a 505 and we used option 1, laying on the kevlar/glass as the bond coat was still wet. We used Divilette (spelling?) which was a very light material, the five gallon pail weighed nothing at all. If you were to let the bond coat dry you'd want to give it a light sanding before laying in the inner skin.

[Jim Donovan]

Jim, a quick technical question: During the construction, after laying the foam where you want it, what is the very next thing to go on? I've read people mentioning about skimming a layer of thickened epoxy over the bare foam surface and then applying the glass? If so, what's in the epoxy? Would it be say west with a bit of silica or microballoons or what?


And would it be:

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> lay on glass immediately >> pour laminating resin on top of glass and roller it in >> peel ply

or

Foam >> thickened epoxy >> allow to cure >> roller laminating resin on >> lay glass >> roller resin up through glass>> peel ply

??

Use your first method - I let it set up a little before applying the glass.
This can be tricky because of it sets up too long, it'll get sticky and that makes getting the material on much more difficult.
There are lot of different concepts on the perfect core bonding paste - industry standard is to mix a bit of silica (or equiv.) in the resin to a mayonaise consistency.
The Divinycell core I used is very thirsty, so if you don't do this step, you will use almost twice as much resin laminating the material directly to the core - it just keeps soaking into the core.

Corecell is a bit better, and isn't as "spong-like".

[Jim Donovan]

Duct Tape. Lots of it.

I think JD was talking about a de-mountable prod of so fashion.

Jim - have you gone so far as to figure out how much sail you'll carry uphill ? - Curiously comparing the numbers on the newly-announce LS20 which see turbo'd beyond reason - eight-hundred-something lbs, and 360 sq ft - I was wondering how they'll do that.

Hi Dan and Herb,

The bowpsrit attachment is a project in process - I suspect the final solution will be reached as it is being built.
Depending on how this comes out, this may or may not be the solution for the production version.

That sail area number for the LS20 seems a bit high (is it a typo?)

[Heriberto]

Thanks Jim,

Eager to see how that works out with the bowsprit attachment.

On another subject, how are you designing/building the foils? It sounds like the keel will be a modified M24 keel and bulb, is that true?

[Jim Donovan]

Thanks Jim,

Eager to see how that works out with the bowsprit attachment.

On another subject, how are you designing/building the foils? It sounds like the keel will be a modified M24 keel and bulb, is that true?

The fin is a special design, not a Melges fin.

I have my eyes on a Melges 24 bulb that is sitting in Hawaii - I would ideally reshape this - depends on the deal I can work to purchase/borrow it.

[jkdubs808]

Turning out to be a nice boat, Jim. Can't wait to see the finished product on the water. Any ETA to when she'll be sailing?

[Jim Donovan]

Turning out to be a nice boat, Jim. Can't wait to see the finished product on the water. Any ETA to when she'll be sailing?

Been a hellish week of long-boarding (not the fun kind in the surf), and ready to put the first coat of primer on the hull bottom today.
Then I'll have few more days to fill/fair the small areas that always appear after the thing is one color.
It’s really difficult to spot imperfections when it's got a microballoon camouflage finish.

Who bought your Melges?

Attached Files

•  Micrballoons_Done.jpg   88.22K   112 downloads
•  Microlight.jpg   128.47K   129 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Jim - have you gone so far as to figure out how much sail you'll carry uphill ? - Curiously comparing the numbers on the newly-announce LS20 which see turbo'd beyond reason - eight-hundred-something lbs, and 360 sq ft - I was wondering how they'll do that.

Hi Dan and Herb,

That sail area number for the LS20 seems a bit high (is it a typo?)

There's another thread going for the LS20 - guess they put the sail area for the 30 footer on their sailplan; upwind SA is actually 17.6 m^@ (189 ft^2)

My boat's rig is about a meter taller, and has 40% more upwind sail area (approx 266 ft^2)
I'm being careful not to overdo the rig size on my boat, but we'll need to see how it goes in light air before we finalize the prouction version sail plan.
Not every place on the planet is as windy as Hawaii.

[jkdubs808]

Turning out to be a nice boat, Jim. Can't wait to see the finished product on the water. Any ETA to when she'll be sailing?

Been a hellish week of long-boarding (not the fun kind in the surf), and ready to put the first coat of primer on the hull bottom today.
Then I'll have few more days to fill/fair the small areas that always appear after the thing is one color.
It's really difficult to spot imperfections when it's got a microballoon camouflage finish.

Who bought your Melges?

No one actually. I have a nice job lined up (better than the one I have now) that will bring my income to what it used to be, so I am holding on to the Melges. If all goes well and I land the job we'll be back on the water by April.

[Kestrahl]

[/quote]

The D6 design is aimed to balance high performance with ease of sailing.
The size, construction, layout, rig and keel are all sized to give exciting sportboat performance in a package that doesn't require the entire crew to have a lot of experience sailing high performance yachts. I want to be able to take my friends out yacht racing.

The base design will carry a reasonably heavy keel bulb that will provide stability exactly when needed; when it's windy and things are starting to get a little bit out-of-control.
This keel configuration will also work well for anyone who sails solo or double-handed.


That said, the D6 design has been designed to accommodate higher performance, and can be easily "turboed" with a few modifications:
Lighter weight bulb
Longer sprit
Large spinnaker

My boat will have the long sprit and big spinnaker, and retain the heavier bulb for Hawaii's strong breezes.

The winches are the smallest available and are there primarily to hold the spinnaker sheet in big breeze so the trimmer gets some relief.
They will also serve to adjust the forestay and halyards, and just about any other line on the boat.
[/quote]

You don't have to have a bigger spinnaker with a longer sprit, you can have the same size spinnaker and make jibing easier and gain speed with the same size spinnaker.

I guess we have the benefit of sportboat evolution in NZ, every boats different in search of speed, and get modified on a yearly basis which the performance based handicaps here promote. The disadvantage is no one design racing.

[Jim Donovan]

You don't have to have a bigger spinnaker with a longer sprit, you can have the same size spinnaker and make jibing easier and gain speed with the same size spinnaker.

I guess we have the benefit of sportboat evolution in NZ, every boats different in search of speed, and get modified on a yearly basis which the performance based handicaps here promote. The disadvantage is no one design racing.

I agree completely (that's why I'm fitting the long sprit on my boat)
But the long sprits may take some people a little time getting used to.

I want people to have the ability to optimize their D6 to their abilities and for the areas they sail, so there will be some options in keels, rig and sails available.

We intend to offer the D6 in a "base" configuration that is slightly detuned from maximum potential.
This will allow a greater number of sailors to jump into the boat and develop the skills that are required to sail a fully powered up sport boat.
Some simple adjustments to the keel, rig and sails will "turbo" the boat, but you won't have to start out that way.

I'm a strong believer that the owners should run the class, so the OD configuration will end up as the majority of the owner's prefer.
The goal is to keep modifications simple and cost effective, so you can switch between your home town and the class OD configuration easily.

[jkdubs808]

I agree completely (that's why I'm fitting the long sprit on my boat)
But the long sprits may take some people a little time getting used to.

Ok, so I followed your build pretty much since the beginning, and I know orginally you were talking about a detachable prod instead of a pull out sprit. Is that still the case?

BTW, I am really digging the look of the stern with the whole rudder gudgeons a part of the hull and the big sugar scoop. I'm diggin this boat Jim.

[Jim Donovan]

1st (thin) coat of primer on the hull bottom Saturday.
Sunday we watched the game and then stayed up till 3AM watching the non-race in Valencia.

Getting the hull all white better shows the imperfections in the fairing, so today I built a new sanding long board, and marked areas that need filling/reducing.

Back half of the boat is in really good shape, except I need to tweak the chines.
There's a little work in the fwd 1/3 of the hull bottom - I knew I had some areas to deal with but needed to get the paint on to really see what's going on.

So I know what I'm doing this week - more sanding!
Just need to keep remembering it'll be well worth it.


Jesse: Thanks for the compliments on the boat - yes, the sprit will not be retractable, but I have a scheme developed to make it easily removable.

Attached Files

•  Hull_Bottom_1st_Primer_Aft.jpg   43.29K   159 downloads
•  Hull_Bottom_1st_Primer_Fwd.jpg   36.44K   181 downloads

[Roy_Race]

Niiice!

[Jim Donovan]

So you think you've got it fair, and then you start pulling a string along the hull bottom - that's when you pick up the 1/2mm bumps and hollows.

Found a few of these near the centerline where the laminate laps were recessed, mainly because it was the most difficult part of the hull to reach with the long-board.

Here's a pic showing a "fix" to the fairing; two very slight lumps fore and aft of a slight hollow.
The bumps were very small - just had to sand through the primer to get rid of them.
Filled the hollow with resin rich mixture of ultra-light filler. I try to avoid using much thickness of the ultra-light filler - it's not as tough as micro-balloons. This patch is about 1/2mm thick max.

Not in the shop today, but back at it Friday.
Last bit of fairing in the bow needs a final sanding, and then I'll apply the second pass of primer - the first pass is 50% gone after long-boarding.

Attached Files

•  String_Line.jpg   52.08K   125 downloads

[WCB]

So you think you've got it fair, and then you start pulling a string along the hull bottom - that's when you pick up the 1/2mm bumps and hollows.

Found a few of these near the centerline where the laminate laps were recessed, mainly because it was the most difficult part of the hull to reach with the long-board.

Here's a pic showing a "fix" to the fairing; two very slight lumps fore and aft of a slight hollow.
The bumps were very small - just had to sand through the primer to get rid of them.
Filled the hollow with resin rich mixture of ultra-light filler. I try to avoid using much thickness of the ultra-light filler - it's not as tough as micro-balloons. This patch is about 1/2mm thick max.

Not in the shop today, but back at it Friday.
Last bit of fairing in the bow needs a final sanding, and then I'll apply the second pass of primer - the first pass is 50% gone after long-boarding.

Jim,

First of all, great work! I love watching your build.

Question though, why wouldn't you have just sprayed on 545 High Build Primer if you knew there would be fairing of highs and lows?

[thumper]

He is using 545, just with a roller for now. A little more work on the bow and then it will get the "real" primer coat

[Jim Donovan]

Jim,

First of all, great work! I love watching your build.

Question though, why wouldn't you have just sprayed on 545 High Build Primer if you knew there would be fairing of highs and lows?

Not spraying because I’m not a painter and I don’t have a spray gun.
I am looking for someone to spray the topsides and deck.

Awlgrip high build primers are not recommended for below waterline applications, but more importantly, are really hard and difficult to sand after cure.
I’ve tried them on a powerboat deck once – that was enough.

545 is quite thin, but an excellent paint that sands beautifully.
I just put a thin coat on the other day to get the hull a uniform color – makes it much easier to pick up the surface imperfections.
Rolling it on with enough reducer that it flattens out nicely.

[Thad]

Jim,

First of all, great work! I love watching your build.

Question though, why wouldn't you have just sprayed on 545 High Build Primer if you knew there would be fairing of highs and lows?

Not spraying because I’m not a painter and I don’t have a spray gun.
I am looking for someone to spray the topsides and deck.

Awlgrip high build primers are not recommended for below waterline applications, but more importantly, are really hard and difficult to sand after cure.
I’ve tried them on a powerboat deck once – that was enough.

545 is quite thin, but an excellent paint that sands beautifully.
I just put a thin coat on the other day to get the hull a uniform color – makes it much easier to pick up the surface imperfections.
Rolling it on with enough reducer that it flattens out nicely.

Jim:
Are the base, the catalyst and the reducer the only components used when rolling on the 545? What percentage of reducer do you use to let it lay down?

[Jim Donovan]

Jim:
Are the base, the catalyst and the reducer the only components used when rolling on the 545? What percentage of reducer do you use to let it lay down?

Yep - just use the recommended amount of reducer - I think it's about 10%

Foam rollers give the smoothest finish, but the only ones I can find here fall apart after about 15 mins.
I'd like to find out if anyone has found a foam roller than 545 won't eat up.

[Jim Donovan]

Wings Rule!

Robert slept through the AC races, but we were up all night watching - Hawaii is 11 hours earlier than Valencia

Attached Files

•  Wing_Close_up.jpg   25.1K   38 downloads

[Heriberto]

Wings Rule!

Robert slept through the AC races, but we were up all night watching - Hawaii is 11 hours earlier than Valencia

Ha ha! But Robert has an advantage, he can fold his away!

[bruno]

Jim:
Are the base, the catalyst and the reducer the only components used when rolling on the 545? What percentage of reducer do you use to let it lay down?

Yep - just use the recommended amount of reducer - I think it's about 10%

Foam rollers give the smoothest finish, but the only ones I can find here fall apart after about 15 mins.
I'd like to find out if anyone has found a foam roller than 545 won't eat up.

High build usually=talc, ng.
Avoid foam with 545 and use pink fabric fine nap. will get more stipple but roll an extra coat to sand through, 545 solvents too gnarly for foam. tip'n'roll freeboard or call Kimo and shoot at KYC like every one else there. can tip n roll or just roll Awlkwik.

[Jim Donovan]

Sorry but I've been off island for a few days, and will be back at the shop tomorrow.

Jim

[Jim Donovan]

2 coats of 545 primer on the hull bottom/topsides past couple days - I'll try and get a photo or two this weekend, but the weather hasn't been very nice.

[Jim Donovan]

2 coats of 545 primer on the hull bottom/topsides past couple days - I'll try and get a photo or two this weekend, but the weather hasn't been very nice.

Realize this topic has been a bit lacking the past week - kind of like watching paint dry, which is basically been the task at hand.

Now that I have a good solid coat of primer on the hull, I have few minor areas to chase w/some fairing - this seems to be a never ending task.

My companionway hatch arrived - it's perfect!

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•  Lewmar_Hatch_1.jpg   64.15K   65 downloads
•  Lewmar_Hatch_2.jpg   63.04K   49 downloads

[barefoot children]

Half the hull bottom core on the plug.

Jim;

What is the foam used for the hull? Does it haveto be heatedto get he shape shown?

[JRowse]

Yep - just use the recommended amount of reducer - I think it's about 10%

Foam rollers give the smoothest finish, but the only ones I can find here fall apart after about 15 mins.
I'd like to find out if anyone has found a foam roller than 545 won't eat up.

I've had good luck using the west systems brand foam epoxy rollers for 545 primer and when rolling and tipping topcoat. Every other foam roller I've ever used has started unraveling within minutes.

[on the breeze]

Yep - just use the recommended amount of reducer - I think it's about 10%

Foam rollers give the smoothest finish, but the only ones I can find here fall apart after about 15 mins.
I'd like to find out if anyone has found a foam roller than 545 won't eat up.

I've had good luck using the west systems brand foam epoxy rollers for 545 primer and when rolling and tipping topcoat. Every other foam roller I've ever used has started unraveling within minutes.

Surely you not going to roll and tip this boat - say it isn't so

[Jim Donovan]

Yep - just use the recommended amount of reducer - I think it's about 10%

Foam rollers give the smoothest finish, but the only ones I can find here fall apart after about 15 mins.
I'd like to find out if anyone has found a foam roller than 545 won't eat up.

I've had good luck using the west systems brand foam epoxy rollers for 545 primer and when rolling and tipping topcoat. Every other foam roller I've ever used has started unraveling within minutes.

Surely you not going to roll and tip this boat - say it isn't so

No!
Looking for someone to spray the hull and deck.

Hope to be back in the shop next week - I have only a few minor hollows to deal with near the bow.
My wife is a sculptor, and she can see the areas that need filling (I need a string line to find them!)
So she's signed up to help me locate the last few imperfections before I flip the hull right-side up and start dry-fitting the hardware.


Been hauled off MY boat project to deal with a 56 ft catamaran that 1/2 sunk 3 months ago.
I've been called in by the owner to get some real numbers attached to the composite repairs.
The insurance company has been extremely difficult through the claim process, and the delays in getting the situation resolved have become absurd.
They insurance company wasted 2 months trying to organize relocating the boat to be repaired in a grassy lot right next door to a restaurant in a tourist area, ignoring all local zoning ordinances and the fact the lot was in a flood zone that actually floods when it rains. Their plan was to throw plastic tarps on the ground. I guess working with power tools while standing ankle deep in water was okay in their book.

Whatever . . .

[Great Red Shark]

Yeah, I've rolled by a few times and saw the garage door closed. Where is the Cat project ? You working Sunday ?

I hear everybody's favorite boat-killer is working on big Mo down at Marisco's.

[Jim Donovan]

Going to try and get to the shop on Sunday - but the tsunami alarms went off 90 minutes ago!
Maybe I should get over there now and get it ready?

[gone]

Jim,

Are you OK?

It's been a wild week of moving water for you.

[Jim Donovan]

Jim,

Are you OK?

It's been a wild week of moving water for you.

We saw the water level in the little harbor 100 feet away from home rise and drop 8” in about 15 minutes, but that was all.
Footage from Hilo was more dramatic, but no reports of damage.

It was fortunate that the wave decided to come at midday - eveyone had hours to prepare - we all watched it come to the Big Island first.
Hilo had an 11 meter wave hit in 1960 killing many people, so everyone was very relieved that it was only 60cm in Hilo

The alarms went off at 6AM - but there were already crowds in the grocery stores at 4AM becasue we heard about the quake in Chile the night before.
One of the store reportedly limited two cases of Spam per customer.

[Soley]

Ok since you didn't get your toes wet....GET BACK TO WORK!

We are all waiting to see you finish this project.

[Jim Donovan]

Ok since you didn't get your toes wet....GET BACK TO WORK!

We are all waiting to see you finish this project.

Okay, okay!

Back at it today (finally!)

Sanded the port side down to 220 and then washed it down with a hose.
The film of water over the hull surface is a real cheap "clear-coat" that let's you see all the problem areas.
I have some work to do on the chines and a few other small spots to deal with.

Good news is that 99% of the surface is done (at least on the port side)
Sanding the starboard side tomorrow and hopefully I'll get some more photos.

I think this boat just wants to get out of the shop and go sailing
So do I!

Attached Files

•  Bow Qrt 1.jpg   137.66K   191 downloads
•  Aft Qrt.jpg   356.03K   235 downloads
•  Bow Qrt 2.jpg   440.31K   192 downloads

[Steam Flyer]

... ... ... ...
Good news is that 99% of the surface is done (at least on the port side)
Sanding the starboard side tomorrow and hopefully I'll get some more photos.

I think this boat just wants to get out of the shop and go sailing
So do I!

That's a -really- pretty shape.

You already knew this, but you done good.

FB- Doug

[miahmouse]

lookin good... plans for the rig?

[Jim Donovan]

lookin good... plans for the rig?

For my boat, see 3rd post on the first page of this topic.

For production versions, we're examining several options including aluminum to get a base boat at a reduced price.
Still waiting to see if the aluminum option is enough cost savings to warrant the extra weight aloft.

[gone]

This boat is WAY too pretty for an aluminum rig!!!

[Jim Donovan]

This boat is WAY too pretty for an aluminum rig!!!

The aluminum rig option is only to get you out on the water for less $$$ - nothing wrong with that.
There's very likely some cases where the aluminum rig makes sense, such as a YC considering the boats as a club racer.


The goal would be to match an aluminum tube close enough to the carbon upgrade that most of the fittings could be swapped out from the aluminum tube to the carbon tube.

[Jim Donovan]

Started building the hull cradles for the trailer last night.

Attached Files

•  Cradle Laminate.jpg   116.44K   119 downloads

[Open Sailing]

lookin good... plans for the rig?

For my boat, see 3rd post on the first page of this topic.

For production versions, we're examining several options including aluminum to get a base boat at a reduced price.
Still waiting to see if the aluminum option is enough cost savings to warrant the extra weight aloft.

You should consider a non tapered aluminum section (F18 style). This is what we have on the 5.70. the rotating mast works great. the rig is light and very simple to set. Spin halyards is run externally which is not a big deal. Main halyard is a 2:1 purchase and ran into the groove of the mast. We have adjustable spreaders on the section of course and the shrouds are set really back from the mast for better support. The non tapered section makes the mast strong, even if you go with mast head kite, no backstay...
that's my 2 cents.

js

[Jim Donovan]

lookin good... plans for the rig?

For my boat, see 3rd post on the first page of this topic.

For production versions, we're examining several options including aluminum to get a base boat at a reduced price.
Still waiting to see if the aluminum option is enough cost savings to warrant the extra weight aloft.

You should consider a non tapered aluminum section (F18 style). This is what we have on the 5.70. the rotating mast works great. the rig is light and very simple to set. Spin halyards is run externally which is not a big deal. Main halyard is a 2:1 purchase and ran into the groove of the mast. We have adjustable spreaders on the section of course and the shrouds are set really back from the mast for better support. The non tapered section makes the mast strong, even if you go with mast head kite, no backstay...
that's my 2 cents.

js

You can definitely get away with a non-tapered topmast in a rotating rig - the section above the hounds aligns with the airflow. But for this fixed rig it's way too "agro" for a nice race boat - that big topmast section will wash out a large portion of the upper (important) part of the mainsail.

[U20guy2]

This boat is WAY too pretty for an aluminum rig!!!

The aluminum rig option is only to get you out on the water for less $$$ - nothing wrong with that.
There's very likely some cases where the aluminum rig makes sense, such as a YC considering the boats as a club racer.


The goal would be to match an aluminum tube close enough to the carbon upgrade that most of the fittings could be swapped out from the aluminum tube to the carbon tube.

Hey Jim how tall will your rig be? I'm wondering if the U20 mast would be a possible match? We have a nice C-tech rig the class has spent two years basically designing with C-tech its a freaking work of art. My carbon stick sans gear was almost $1000 bucks cheaper than the class tin rig regarding replacement costs. As for rig to rig the carbon stick is light years better regarding side to side strength compared to the tin rig.

I and a few other U20 guys have extra tin rigs though I doubt anyone is selling them just yet. You could easily get a rig from the West coast shipped over on a PAC CUP boat trailer for probably a case of beer for shipping and of course the rig price etc.

As for weight differences for the average tin rig vs carbon weight in the U20 group we've come to about 12lbs difference.

Regarding strapping a rig to a PAC Cup boat trailer there are plenty of SA guys here that could probably get that sorted out and the rig packed up on a trailer headed your way. The PAC CUP is this July and every two years so if you hustle on the rig plan you can take advantage of the whole trailer shipping idea.

[Open Sailing]

As for weight differences for the average tin rig vs carbon weight in the U20 group we've come to about 12lbs difference.

nice! sounds like you can now afford a 12 pack of beers aboard (I read that the average 12 pack of beer weighs 18-21 pounds)!

[Jim Donovan]

A couple of pressing jobs came up the past few weeks that kept me away from boat building, but I was back working a long day yesterday.
Although most of my day was devoted to cleaning the shop and taking a truckload of trash to the dump.

I'm finishing up the hull cradles in preparation to flip the hull right-side up - hopefully this week.
Still need to sand the port side of the hull and chase some minor fairing touch-ups - started that process last evening.

Snapped a couple photos before leaving the shop last evening.

Attached Files

•  Hull Cradles.jpg   75.29K   144 downloads
•  Hull Pads.jpg   59.42K   138 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Finally sanded the port side today - I have a little work to do in the bow right at the knuckle, and a small area above the chine amidships (where I've sanded through the primer).
The starboard side has some areas of microlight filler that need to be sanded and primed - hope to get these finished and primed along with the port side work this week.
Not too much longer before I can flip it right side up and forget sanding and faring the bottom forever!

Attached Files

•  Port Aft Qrt 2.jpg   414.4K   220 downloads
•  Port Aft Qrt 3.jpg   436.99K   213 downloads

[thumper]

As for weight differences for the average tin rig vs carbon weight in the U20 group we've come to about 12lbs difference.

nice! sounds like you can now afford a 12 pack of beers aboard (I read that the average 12 pack of beer weighs 18-21 pounds)!

I'll have to remember that when we talk to the rating committee about my Ross780. We only drink from bottles (use winch handle holders for the beers, ever seen a 25 foote with 7 winch handle holders?). We also take at least a case, sometimes 1.5 = 50 to 60#! We should get a credit for that!

[thumper]

2 coats of 545 primer on the hull bottom/topsides past couple days - I'll try and get a photo or two this weekend, but the weather hasn't been very nice.

Realize this topic has been a bit lacking the past week - kind of like watching paint dry, which is basically been the task at hand.

Now that I have a good solid coat of primer on the hull, I have few minor areas to chase w/some fairing - this seems to be a never ending task.

My companionway hatch arrived - it's perfect!

Typical Guy, leaves the seat up!

[Jim Donovan]

After weeks of sanding and painting and sanding and painting and building the hull cradles, we finally rolled the boat back upright last evening . . .

Attached Files

•  Side View.jpg   82.3K   102 downloads
•  New Cradle.jpg   192.77K   129 downloads
•  Getting ready to flip.jpg   141.27K   126 downloads
•  Getting ready to flip 2.jpg   118.6K   103 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

final inspection by Robert

Attached Files

•  Inspector Bird.jpg   77.04K   45 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Rolling

Attached Files

•  Roll 1.jpg   133.64K   145 downloads
•  Roll 2.jpg   116.91K   205 downloads
•  Roll 3.jpg   153.2K   182 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

The hull isn't actually as shiny as in the photos.
I took the photos after I hosed it down to check for fairness.
It’s wet sanded to 220 - still need to touch-up chines and add a little primer on some thin spots.
It'll look this good as soon as it gets a topcoat

[Soley]

Hi Jim,

Do you have any more photos and pictures of your cradles? I am looking to build some for my boat. No idea how to go about.

You have a paint scheme in mind or what ever you happen to have lying around?

Thanks

Matt

[Conny71]

Is the plan to pull a female mould off this beauty for the D6 production?

[Jim Donovan]

Is the plan to pull a female mould off this beauty for the D6 production?

Plan is to build a plug for the production mold - it'll be even better.

[Jim Donovan]

Started rigging the deck gear today.

Cut cockpit ports and hatch opening and dry-fit deck hardware

Attached Files

•  Rigging 1.jpg   161.11K   252 downloads
•  Rigging 2.jpg   151.48K   250 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Built a template for the "offshore" hatch.
The Lewmar hatch will be mounted to this panel which will slide into the opening.
I'll use this for locking up the boat, and windy days when I want to keep water out of the boat.

Attached Files

•  Hatch Installed 2.jpg   110.47K   160 downloads
•  Hatch Installed 3.jpg   92.64K   186 downloads
•  Hatch Installed 4.jpg   105.24K   151 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Couple of bow-on shots (remind me to finish the upper part of the stem)

Attached Files

•  Business End 1.jpg   107.01K   179 downloads
•  Business End 2.jpg   81.11K   182 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

And STILL more fairing at the fwd end of the chines!

[GybeSet®]

only evident in the 2nd last image, but seems to have a li'l bit of 'TP' to the general profile right up for'ard, till the chine anyway!

[Heriberto]

How freaking awesome that is Jim!

Go the freaking D6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I admit I was a little wobbly about that hatch, but it really does look like a good touch. Still not clear, will that be a permanent mount, or is that a removable assembly?

[Steam Flyer]

Couple of bow-on shots (remind me to finish the upper part of the stem)

That is a truly sweet looking hull.

Best looking treatment of chine & sheer I've seen yet... or at least, the most photogenic.

FB- Doug

[Jim Donovan]

How freaking awesome that is Jim!

Go the freaking D6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I admit I was a little wobbly about that hatch, but it really does look like a good touch. Still not clear, will that be a permanent mount, or is that a removable assembly?

The brown panel in this photo is a Masonite template for the hatch panel.
The finished panel will be a glass cored panel with the Lewmar hatch mounted to it.
The panel fits into the larger opening much like a companionway slider, with a gasket to seal around the edge.

Last night I removed the core around the large opening and filled with high density filler. Today I'll run the router around the edge to give a smooth opening.
The large opening will be fantastic for day racing - you can easily reach the mast from the cockpit to get at the main halyard which cleats below.
It's really easy to get in and out of the boat from this large opening, although I'll probably want a sailcloth flap to help shed water on the windier days.

Attached Files

•  Hatch Installed 3.jpg   92.64K   36 downloads

[jkdubs808]

That really is a sweet looking boat, Jim. Can't wait to see what the sprit is gonna look like.

[gone]

That boat sure is beautiful!!

It has been a pleasure seeing the build through the whole process.

How have the price point comparisons between the carbon and aluminum sticks coming along?

[Jim Donovan]

Almost finished with the dry-fit of the hardware on deck.
After this step, I'll remove all the hardware and record the number and sizes of heli-coils needed, and then ream-out the fastener holes and inject with high-density filler (404).

Here's the jib and main traveler set-up.

Jib traveler is 1:1 but can easily be increased to 2 or 3:1 if needed.n
Control lines dives under-deck at the traveler end and comes out just fwd of the main traveler cleat - right by the driver.
There's a few little water-proofing boxes to make to seal the thru-deck bullet blocks under the cam cleat.

Attached Files

•  Jib Trav 1.jpg   57.65K   130 downloads
•  Jib Trav 2.jpg   59.27K   160 downloads
•  Main Trav.jpg   63.39K   141 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Port spin sheet sheave box has the access hole cut - this allows you to easily feed the line out of the deck tube and around the sheave.
The nasty bolt is a temp pin for now

Attached Files

•  Spin Sheet Sheave.jpg   34.26K   176 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

I wanted clutches for the forestay adjuster and and spinnaker halyard for a couple resaons:

For the forestay adjuster a clutch is the most secure means of parking the line. I never wanted that line kicked out of a cam cleat by accident.

For the spin halyard 2 things: The Melges 24 has that cam cleat at the mast for the spin halyard; in 25 knots it is a pain to release, and it's next to impossible to re-cleat the halyard if the kite starts going in the water. The clutch gives you painless release and stopping power.


I wish Spinlock made a smaller clutch - these look a bit over-kill on this little boat, but they're the smallest version made.

Not a lot left to install:

I have to build the foot-braces and lead-box for the jib sheets and vang control (also my compass mount and drink holder)

Mount the tack line cleat just aft of the spin halyard clutch

Install Roberts perch socket at the hatch

Install the access plate to get to the shower foot-pump

Install the handrails for the crew

Build the mast collar (cut the hole the other day)

Attached Files

•  Forestay Adj.jpg   49.41K   159 downloads
•  Cockpit Fwd.jpg   69.16K   201 downloads
•  Robert\'s Racing Socket.jpg   109.45K   258 downloads
•  Plan.jpg   96.85K   258 downloads

[Art Vandelay]

Jim,
The boat is looking great.
What does the Robert perch socket do?

How do you handle water intrusion from say the front of the jib traveler, where the control line goes under the deck, which looks like a blast zone for water?

The port light looking things in the cockpit, are they line holders? is there a bag or box behind to keep water out?

[Great Red Shark]

Art,

being somewhat familiar with the project I'll take a go at some of your questions:

1. Robert's perch socket is just that - a custom-made perch will slot into the socket and provide Class A accomodations for the small feathered crewmember.

2. The jib sheet is going UP from the traveler to an exit up the mast. Wally-style, not Soling-style.

3. Portlight-like things are in fact, portlights. I don't think they will be open in offshore conditions, and inshore they shouldn't ship much water.

[thumper]

To further clarify:

1) Robert's perch is a custom made T handle from Harken that fits in any which. The Perch socket is a cup just like the center socket pf a winch top that jim will glass in just aft of the main hatch. See #3, Robert will be quite comfortable in any conditions.

2) Shark is correct on jib sheet. However, at the outboard ends of the jib traveler are tubes for the traveler controls. They are ABS and sized snugly for the line size. dripping maybe, but no splash, captain!

3) Shark is correct on the portlights though, the boat will have a small dodger over the hatch area for open ocean. Jim isnt sure if it will be canvas or composite. I've got my money on a really sexy looking composite.

[thumper]

Hi Jim,

Do you have any more photos and pictures of your cradles? I am looking to build some for my boat. No idea how to go about.

You have a paint scheme in mind or what ever you happen to have lying around?

Thanks

Matt

Matt,

The trailer rests are Yoga Pads from sports authority. Flip you boat, put these on, and then glass over them with a bunch of layers (wet out on a flat table and then just lay them over the pads) See posting from March 10th at 3PM on page 10.

The boxes are just plywood. Scribe them to the curve of your bottom, glass them to the pads on the inside and outside. Putty and fair the outside per your liking (Jim took 2 days) then paint with a stipple roller. The bottoms are plywood bases with 2x4s on edge that will be bolted to the trailer and then the boxes fit over them and are screwed in. See posting from March 21 at 4:06PM on page 11

The Yoga mats are glued on with 3M super-duper-deluxe-glue your testicles to your leg if you aent careful spray adhesive.

[Norm]

So how will the kit work, at what stage will components be supplies or will that vary ?

[Jim Donovan]

So how will the kit work, at what stage will components be supplies or will that vary ?

The intention is to use the same concept as the high level composite aircraft kits, with the goal of arriving at the end of the project with the look of a professionally completed yacht.

Realizing that the hull molding is perhaps the most difficult component for a part-time builder to produce, we have decided to produce the "kit" hull complete and ready for paint all the way up to the deck connection at the sheer.

The cockpit "tub" will also be a single molding with the radius at the cockpit/deck edge molded in and ready to receive the deck panels which will require joining along the centerline.

Keel/mast frame is also a single molding that will need to be bonded in place.

Flat panels for the bow tank, aft bulkhead and transom are the only other parts that will require assembly.

Rig, keel, rudder, deck hardware may be purchased separately from the hull/deck structure components, so you don't have to purchase these parts until you need them.

We intend to be able to supply the boats in various stages including complete and ready to sail.

[Jim Donovan]

Interesting snapshot I took from Charleston Race Week video today. M20 planted in a knock down with a crew needing to jump on the keel to get the boat back upright.
Looks like it's blowing about 20+, which is an average day here in Hawaii.

Wonder what 30 knots will be like?


Keel bulb on my boat weighs the same as a Melges 24 (approx 580 lbs).
In all my years of sailing M24's in big breeze, I have never even gotten close to jumping out on the fin to get the boat upright.
This heavy bulb on my smaller design will speed up the recovery of the boat in a knockdown - I want to be able to sail in 30 knots without dealing with the prolonged wipe-outs, and never want my crew over the side to get the boat back upright.

Attached Files

•  M20 Wipeout.jpg   30.59K   126 downloads

[Art Vandelay]

Interesting snapshot I took from Charleston Race Week video today. M20 planted in a knock down with a crew needing to jump on the keel to get the boat back upright.
Looks like it's blowing about 20+, which is an average day here in Hawaii.

Wonder what 30 knots will be like?


Keel bulb on my boat weighs the same as a Melges 24 (approx 580 lbs).
In all my years of sailing M24's in big breeze, I have never even gotten close to jumping out on the fin to get the boat upright.
This heavy bulb on my smaller design will speed up the recovery of the boat in a knockdown - I want to be able to sail in 30 knots without dealing with the prolonged wipe-outs, and never want my crew over the side to get the boat back upright.

That's funny Jim. I was just watching the same video before checking on how your build is coming....I do have to compliment the guy who jumped on the keel, must be a dinghy sailor...but I sail in SF and like your thoughts on having a bit of lead down there....

[Duff Beer Cruising]

Have you gotten yourself a rating or a guess at one give or take 10?

When do you anticipate pricing on the various editions?

[Big Idea]

Hi Mr Donovan

Sorry to intrude.

I am building an i550 called TANK www.ricksboat.co.uk

I was looking at your beautiful boat and thought I would really like a transom like yours.

Would it be ok for me to copy it please?

[on the breeze]

So when is the big Splash

[StayinStrewn]

Hi Mr Donovan

Sorry to intrude.

I am building an i550 called TANK www.ricksboat.co.uk

I was looking at your beautiful boat and thought I would really like a transom like yours.

Would it be ok for me to copy it please?

dude, you're i550 project looks great!! keep it up...the Tank will be a mean machine!!

[Jim Donovan]

Hi Mr Donovan

Sorry to intrude.

I am building an i550 called TANK www.ricksboat.co.uk

I was looking at your beautiful boat and thought I would really like a transom like yours.

Would it be ok for me to copy it please?

Be my guest - I'll be happy to assist in any way I can.
Although my boat is a little bit different creature than your's, there's a lot of similar battles to wage during any boat construction project.

[Jim Donovan]

So when is the big Splash

Summer - that's as much as I'll commit to now - other work keeps getting in the way.

[U20guy2]

Interesting snapshot I took from Charleston Race Week video today. M20 planted in a knock down with a crew needing to jump on the keel to get the boat back upright.
Looks like it's blowing about 20+, which is an average day here in Hawaii.

Wonder what 30 knots will be like?


Keel bulb on my boat weighs the same as a Melges 24 (approx 580 lbs).
In all my years of sailing M24's in big breeze, I have never even gotten close to jumping out on the fin to get the boat upright.
This heavy bulb on my smaller design will speed up the recovery of the boat in a knockdown - I want to be able to sail in 30 knots without dealing with the prolonged wipe-outs, and never want my crew over the side to get the boat back upright.

That's funny Jim. I was just watching the same video before checking on how your build is coming....I do have to compliment the guy who jumped on the keel, must be a dinghy sailor...but I sail in SF and like your thoughts on having a bit of lead down there....

The smaller sporty keel boats paired with dinghy sailors you tend to get a dinghy sailor or two who by instinct head for the keel when its blowing hard and you park it on the side. I've had to yank a few dinghy crew back in the cockpit on the U20 over the years and explain what a keel is for. LOL

[Jim Donovan]

Have you gotten yourself a rating or a guess at one give or take 10?

When do you anticipate pricing on the various editions?

I'd expect the boat to start at 12 secs slower than the Melges 24 due to the difference in LOA.
That's purely a guess.

We are aiming at the kit form with all the "pieces" (hull, deck, frames, rig, keel, rudder, hardware) coming in at around $30K.
But you won't have to buy all the parts upfront, so the first stage kit of hull, deck and frames will be around $20K.

The boat is quite a "lot-more-boat" than a Melges 20 or Viper, so a direct comparison to those boats isn't really valid.
The design is more powerful and stable and the construction more sophisticated.

[Colin]

Hi Mr Donovan

Sorry to intrude.

I am building an i550 called TANK www.ricksboat.co.uk

I was looking at your beautiful boat and thought I would really like a transom like yours.

Would it be ok for me to copy it please?

dude, you're i550 project looks great!! keep it up...the Tank will be a mean machine!!

+1, you "Sized Idea" people are great! Keep it up and thanks for sharing.

[Big Idea]

Thank you Mr Donovan

Thanks to all of you for saying nice things

[Jim Donovan]

Interesting snapshot I took from Charleston Race Week video today. M20 planted in a knock down with a crew needing to jump on the keel to get the boat back upright.
Looks like it's blowing about 20+, which is an average day here in Hawaii.

Wonder what 30 knots will be like?


Keel bulb on my boat weighs the same as a Melges 24 (approx 580 lbs).
In all my years of sailing M24's in big breeze, I have never even gotten close to jumping out on the fin to get the boat upright.
This heavy bulb on my smaller design will speed up the recovery of the boat in a knockdown - I want to be able to sail in 30 knots without dealing with the prolonged wipe-outs, and never want my crew over the side to get the boat back upright.

That's funny Jim. I was just watching the same video before checking on how your build is coming....I do have to compliment the guy who jumped on the keel, must be a dinghy sailor...but I sail in SF and like your thoughts on having a bit of lead down there....

The smaller sporty keel boats paired with dinghy sailors you tend to get a dinghy sailor or two who by instinct head for the keel when its blowing hard and you park it on the side. I've had to yank a few dinghy crew back in the cockpit on the U20 over the years and explain what a keel is for. LOL

I was discussing this with my friends who sail Melges 24s here in Hawaii.
All of these guys have sailed high powered dingies - one of them has an Olympic silver medal.
We've all taken M 24’s out in way too much wind and really "scary" conditions where wipe-outs are a certainty.
I asked them if they've ever even considered jumping out on the fin on their 24's - they said "never have, no need too".

In that video the M 20 looked fairly well pinned down and staying on it's side. That changed when the guy got out on the fin.

I've sailed some keel boats that have a similar low limit of positive stability, and the long recovery period from a wipe-out will take you out of the race.

[Jim Donovan]

Finishing up cockpit details including footbraces, jib and vang cleat box, and started on the sprit today.
My friend Harold brought by an I14 mast a few months ago asking if I could fix it.
Fixing it "right" so it didn't have any hard spots caused by the repair would cost more than a new mast tube.
So Harold has his new mast and he has donated the broken top part to my boat project.
Today I started fitting it to the bow - I need to cut it down a bit and it will need reinforcing to handle the compression and bending loads.
I'm going to start with a 1.20m (4 ft) long sprit to see how that goes.
This gives me a TPS approx 8" longer than a Melges 24.
I figure I can always cut it down if it seems too long - I suspect we will like the length.
Footbraces (upside down) in the foreground - should glue down the fwd set tomorrow - the shorter aft set are adjustable and removable.

Attached Files

•  Sprit fit.jpg   227.97K   304 downloads

[Jim Donovan]

Hatch panel just needs a coat of paint - it slides into place as easy as a drop slide.
I need to add a thin strip of rubber gasket around the perimeter and I have to do a little bit of research to find the simplest way of locking it in place.

Attached Files

•  Hatch 1.jpg   33.58K   68 downloads
•  Hatch 2.jpg   50.21K   93 downloads
•  Hatch 3.jpg   42.11K   79 downloads

[The Gardener]

Interesting snapshot I took from Charleston Race Week video today. M20 planted in a knock down with a crew needing to jump on the keel to get the boat back upright.
Looks like it's blowing about 20+, which is an average day here in Hawaii.

Wonder what 30 knots will be like?


Keel bulb on my boat weighs the same as a Melges 24 (approx 580 lbs).
In all my years of sailing M24's in big breeze, I have never even gotten close to jumping out on the fin to get the boat upright.
This heavy bulb on my smaller design will speed up the recovery of the boat in a knockdown - I want to be able to sail in 30 knots without dealing with the prolonged wipe-outs, and never want my crew over the side to get the boat back upright.

That's funny Jim. I was just watching the same video before checking on how your build is coming....I do have to compliment the guy who jumped on the keel, must be a dinghy sailor...but I sail in SF and like your thoughts on having a bit of lead down there....

The smaller sporty keel boats paired with dinghy sailors you tend to get a dinghy sailor or two who by instinct head for the keel when its blowing hard and you park it on the side. I've had to yank a few dinghy crew back in the cockpit on the U20 over the years and explain what a keel is for. LOL

I was discussing this with my friends who sail Melges 24s here in Hawaii.
All of these guys have sailed high powered dingies - one of them has an Olympic silver medal.
We've all taken M 24's out in way too much wind and really "scary" conditions where wipe-outs are a certainty.
I asked them if they've ever even considered jumping out on the fin on their 24's - they said "never have, no need too".

In that video the M 20 looked fairly well pinned down and staying on it's side. That changed when the guy got out on the fin.

I've sailed some keel boats that have a similar low limit of positive stability, and the long recovery period from a wipe-out will take you out of the race.

The quick wipe out move on the M20 (dependant on why you tipped it over) is to blow the halyard (it comes up quick) then pull the halyard quickly.

[Jim Donovan]

The quick wipe out move on the M20 (dependant on why you tipped it over) is to blow the halyard (it comes up quick) then pull the halyard quickly.

Blowing the halyard is going to dump the spinnaker in the water. Now you've got to drag the soaking wet thing onboard and try and rehoist it, hoping it didn't get too twisted up in the douse.
Not very "quick"!

I'd rather just ease out the spinnaker sheet and blow the vang, wait a few seconds for the boat to come up, then sheet in and get straight back into the race.

On the Melges 24 you NEED to unfurl the jib to get the boat's bow to come down out of a knockdown.
I plan to keep my jib up in the breeze - it'll sheet perfectly to the rail on the full width track, and self gybe without touching anything.

[The Gardener]

I would think the same.
However the tactical dude that was on the 20 with us said blow the halyard, I did. (he has won a few big events) The boat came up quickly followed by horking the spin right back up, before it totally shrimps. I think it was quicker than jumping on the keel. The boat didnt seem to have any desire to come up otherwise.

[Jim Donovan]

I would think the same.
However the tactical dude that was on the 20 with us said blow the halyard, I did. (he has won a few big events) The boat came up quickly followed by horking the spin right back up, before it totally shrimps. I think it was quicker than jumping on the keel. The boat didnt seem to have any desire to come up otherwise.

How much wind was there?