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wauquiez pretorian vs. crealock 37


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#1 adesso

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:41 PM

Yes, I realize these are very different designs, but I would like to hear about the positive and negative sailing aspects of each, relative to each other. The environment I am considering is single handed, ocean. Not coastal cruising.



adesso

#2 Hiracer

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:57 PM

Yes, I realize these are very different designs, but I would like to hear about the positive and negative sailing aspects of each, relative to each other. The environment I am considering is single handed, ocean. Not coastal cruising.



adesso

I owned the Gladiateur 33' little sister to the Pretorian. I have never sailed the Crealock, albeit I've watched them sail.

1. The Pretorian will be better built. She is about as strong as you can get in fiberglass without being over built.
2. The Pretorian will sail to windward better, especially in 12 knots or more.
3. The Pretorian's fuel tankage is pretty minimal.
4. I suspect the Pretorian will have more interior room and more storage.

I like both boats, but I really like the older Wauquiezes. No way I'm objective, FWW.

#3 adesso

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:04 PM

thanks, h. that is what I have gathered. interesting how the pretorian gets such great reviews and yet appears to be undervalued in the market.

#4 Hiracer

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:12 PM

thanks, h. that is what I have gathered. interesting how the pretorian gets such great reviews and yet appears to be undervalued in the market.

Actually, they used to be cheaper. Practical Sailor did a somewhat gushing review, late 1990s IIRC, and the prices immediately jumped 10K.

Hal Roth's last boat was a Pretorian, you know that of course??

BTY, there are some tall rig versions out there. Not many. I met a family of three that circumnavigated in one. They thought that was a good way to go. IIRC, the SA/D normally is about 16.6. Don't know about the tall rig version.

I was seriously thinking of getting another Wauquiez before I bounced into my current steel boat.

I've heard of people adding fuel tankage, both hard tanks and bladders. The older boats may not have black water tankage, which is another issue.

Also, I think Wauquiez was in the habit of putting in Volvo diesels, which generally haven't served very well. If she has the original engine, you would be wise to factor in the cost of a new diesel.

Tankage and the diesel, to my mind that's the weakness of the Pretorian.

#5 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:20 PM

You sure on #1 ?

Yes, I realize these are very different designs, but I would like to hear about the positive and negative sailing aspects of each, relative to each other. The environment I am considering is single handed, ocean. Not coastal cruising.



adesso

I owned the Gladiateur 33' little sister to the Pretorian. I have never sailed the Crealock, albeit I've watched them sail.

1. The Pretorian will be better built. She is about as strong as you can get in fiberglass without being over built.
2. The Pretorian will sail to windward better, especially in 12 knots or more.
3. The Pretorian's fuel tankage is pretty minimal.
4. I suspect the Pretorian will have more interior room and more storage.

I like both boats, but I really like the older Wauquiezes. No way I'm objective, FWW.



#6 Hiracer

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:26 PM

You sure on #1 ?

Yes, I realize these are very different designs, but I would like to hear about the positive and negative sailing aspects of each, relative to each other. The environment I am considering is single handed, ocean. Not coastal cruising.



adesso

I owned the Gladiateur 33' little sister to the Pretorian. I have never sailed the Crealock, albeit I've watched them sail.

1. The Pretorian will be better built. She is about as strong as you can get in fiberglass without being over built.
2. The Pretorian will sail to windward better, especially in 12 knots or more.
3. The Pretorian's fuel tankage is pretty minimal.
4. I suspect the Pretorian will have more interior room and more storage.

I like both boats, but I really like the older Wauquiezes. No way I'm objective, FWW.

Well, I've been on Crealocks. Their nice boats, but . . . . It's still pan and liner construction, no?

I was on a mid-1980s Halberg Rassy (same vintage as my Gladiateur) this winter and came away convinced that my Gladiateur was better built.

I've been told, but have no way to confirm, that in Lloyds used to internally rate boat yards. In the 1980s, Wauquiez was rated fifth in the world. None of the U.S. yards were in the top 10. Not Hinckley, Morris, Shannon, etc.

The only reason the Wauquiezes were imported into the U.S. during the 1980s is that the French Frank fell 50% against the Dollar. Otherwise they were too expensive for the U.S. market.

Of course, when the old man sold to Beneteau in the late 1990s or earlier 2000s (forget exactly when) all that changed.

#7 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:28 PM

1. The Pretorian will be better built.


I almost wish I didn't have a plane to catch. I'd settle in with a nice tub of popcorn......... B)

#8 Hiracer

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:54 PM

1. The Pretorian will be better built.


I almost wish I didn't have a plane to catch. I'd settle in with a nice tub of popcorn......... B)

OK, I guess I've put my prejudices on the table: The best boats do not have pan-and-liner construction. I realize others may have a differing opinion, but that's mine.

#9 adesso

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:05 PM

the drop of the franc and subsequent import to the us helps explain why the wauquiez are such a good value. I have been wondering how such a well put together boat is such a good deal relative to similar boats on the market.

#10 Hiracer

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:07 PM

the drop of the franc and subsequent import to the us helps explain why the wauquiez are such a good value. I have been wondering how such a well put together boat is such a good deal relative to similar boats on the market.

It also explains why most of them in this country are roughly of the same vintage. When the Franc recovered, the imports slowed way down.

#11 buchhla

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:59 PM

I own a pretorien that I have been prepping for a big offshore trip starting next year. I honestly have never been on a crealock 37, but I have passed a few while sailing... :) That being said, I have crawled around TONS of boats (then again, with some cruising boats, that isn't that many) and I think the build quality of the Pretoriens and other Wauquiez's from those days is at the top of the heap. My boats was bought over in Europe, sailed here in the late 80's, and has been to NZ and back with no issues at all other than high engine hours. The did replace the old MD11, which had almost 5k hours on it this spring, but outside of the usual systems upgrades, nothing has had to be done to the boat. Fuel tankage is a little small like Hiracer said, though my boat came with two additional bladders which I will most likely use. Water tankage is decent at ~70 gallons, so should be plenty for singlehanding it.

The interior is really well laid out and the boat has an incredible amount of interior, usable space for a 35' boat, and still has great storage for a trip like you are talking about. I wish they had better ventilation inside though. I was told that at the time they were being built, Lloyds wouldn't A1 certify a boat that had open portlights...

She is also quite fast for a cruising boat as well. From talking to some owners who have done a lot of passage making, it is very common for pretorien's to make passages in similar time to 40-45' heavier, more traditional boats. Also, from PHRF racing my boat and a sistership here in the PNW, they are capable of winning the swiftsure long course, and we took second in class and third overall in a light air Vic-Maui last year. They are basically fully powered up in 10-12kts and still do quite well in light air compared to heavier boats. They also don't get overpowered easily, and track very well both up and downwind, so don't be scared that the hull is IORish.

Drop me a line if you have any specific questions, I know mine inside and out since I have done all the upgrades including the repower myself over the last 2-3 years...

#12 OSPREY

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:09 AM

I have a Pacific Seacraft 37. The boat is a great boat for two people. The boat I have has 10 opening ports and three hatches ,It's nice having all the air below deck. She has 6'4" head room, 37 gallons of fuel, 85 gallons of fresh water. I have the standard keel 5' 6". At the present time the boat has a fixed three blade prop, as soon as I get cash that will change. Max headsail 135% and a 135% cruzing spin. I have a PHRF rateing of 205. The boat sails at 5.5 to 6 kn in 12 knots of wind and have done 7.7 in twenty knots. with out pounding. The boat is easy to sail, My boat has a Monitor windvane self steering system and it works great. The boat has a full length molded fiberglass hull liner. the liner has numerous openings so that it can be attached and inspected. I just had a marine survey and all attachments are good the boat is 1985. I have never sailed a Wauquiez But there is a fifty footer I see sailing It sails well and looks great. I would be happy to talk to you about the 37 Seacraft.

#13 Joli

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:55 AM

My father in law had a P35 for 20 years. Very nice boat and very well built. They had it in the Great Lakes for 20 years then the Caribbean for 11. It held up very well and still looked great after all those years. They did hit a rock in the North Channel doing 7's during a thunder storm and did damage the boat but I was impressed with how tough the thing was.

One note: The headstay is only backed up with washers and needs a backing plate fabricated or you risk a gravity storm!

I can't think of a better 35 footer out there.

#14 born2sail

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 02:49 PM

I don't know squat about the Pretorian, but I have spent a good amount of time on Crealock designed boats built by Pacific Seacraft...specifically, the Dana, PS 34, 37 and perhaps the most perfect cruising boat ever made, the Pacific Seacraft 44.

All of these boats are well designed and well built and are, relatively speaking, as bullet-proof as a sailboat can be. In fact, throw the Flicka in the mix and you have a fleet of boats that are seaworthy enough to sail across either the Pacific or the Atlantic and just about any other ocean you can think of.

Another observation, of all the yachts sailing around the Pacific Rim, the Crealock 37 might be the most popular single design on the water.

I'm sure the Pretorian is a good boat. But from my personal experiences I would go with the Crealock 37, hands down. Then I would start saving my money for a Pacific Seacraft 44.

#15 Bob Perry

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:02 PM

I'd go for the Praetorian. It will sal far better than the Crealock. Tankage will be an issue as Hi said.

And Born 2, with all due respect there are over 600 Tayana 37's out there and according to George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING they are the most popular offshore cruising boat by far. I'm not sure how many of those Crealocks they built but I know it was a lot less than 600.

#16 Sońadora

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 04:23 PM

Another observation, of all the yachts sailing around the Pacific Rim, the Crealock 37 might be the most popular single design on the water.



:blink:

guess I need to spend more time around the Pacific Rim than the salted rim.

My understanding goes along with what Bob said. I'd be willing to bet the Crealock 37 didn't break 500 units.

Can't say much about either of the boats in the OP except that I've heard the Crealock is 'small' for it's size and that the scheel keel is less than ideal.

I think there's a song in there somewhere.

#17 Hiracer

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 05:37 PM

I don't know squat about the Pretorian, but I have spent a good amount of time on Crealock designed boats built by Pacific Seacraft...specifically, the Dana, PS 34, 37 and perhaps the most perfect cruising boat ever made, the Pacific Seacraft 44.

All of these boats are well designed and well built and are, relatively speaking, as bullet-proof as a sailboat can be. In fact, throw the Flicka in the mix and you have a fleet of boats that are seaworthy enough to sail across either the Pacific or the Atlantic and just about any other ocean you can think of.

Another observation, of all the yachts sailing around the Pacific Rim, the Crealock 37 might be the most popular single design on the water.

I'm sure the Pretorian is a good boat. But from my personal experiences I would go with the Crealock 37, hands down. Then I would start saving my money for a Pacific Seacraft 44.

To clarify, I really like the Crealock 37 and the other PS boats. I've been in them. They are smaller than a typical 37' but that doesn't bother me. I think they are well built and well designed. I just think the Pretorian is better built and better designed. Both boats are top notch as far as I'm concerned. This is a hair splitting exercise. The original poster is choosing between two very excellent boats.

#18 born2sail

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 06:14 PM

I'd go for the Praetorian. It will sal far better than the Crealock. Tankage will be an issue as Hi said.

And Born 2, with all due respect there are over 600 Tayana 37's out there and according to George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING they are the most popular offshore cruising boat by far. I'm not sure how many of those Crealocks they built but I know it was a lot less than 600.


I used the weasel word "might" because I am only speaking from personal experience. Statistically speaking, there are a bunch of Tayana 37's out there. I have experience on those great boats as well. All I'm sayin' is, while out and about I've heard more on-the-water chatter from Crealock 37's than any other single boat-type. I don't remember any chatter from Pretorians (or tribunes for that matter :lol: .

#19 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 06:48 PM

+1
It isn't like choosing between a Mac26 and a Swan :lol:


I don't know squat about the Pretorian, but I have spent a good amount of time on Crealock designed boats built by Pacific Seacraft...specifically, the Dana, PS 34, 37 and perhaps the most perfect cruising boat ever made, the Pacific Seacraft 44.

All of these boats are well designed and well built and are, relatively speaking, as bullet-proof as a sailboat can be. In fact, throw the Flicka in the mix and you have a fleet of boats that are seaworthy enough to sail across either the Pacific or the Atlantic and just about any other ocean you can think of.

Another observation, of all the yachts sailing around the Pacific Rim, the Crealock 37 might be the most popular single design on the water.

I'm sure the Pretorian is a good boat. But from my personal experiences I would go with the Crealock 37, hands down. Then I would start saving my money for a Pacific Seacraft 44.

To clarify, I really like the Crealock 37 and the other PS boats. I've been in them. They are smaller than a typical 37' but that doesn't bother me. I think they are well built and well designed. I just think the Pretorian is better built and better designed. Both boats are top notch as far as I'm concerned. This is a hair splitting exercise. The original poster is choosing between two very excellent boats.



#20 us7070

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:10 PM

As long as we're talking about Wauquiez...

and opinions on the slightly newer models, like the Centurion 45 S, and the Centurion 40 S

No, I'm not asking about the tubby pilot house/ deck salon boats they are currently building....


Centurion 45 S on yachtworld

Centurion 40 S on yachtworld


How would they compare with, say, an X-Yacht?

#21 Duff Beer Cruising

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:16 PM

How about vs an Omega 36?

#22 Ishmael

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:19 PM

As long as we're talking about Wauquiez...

and opinions on the slightly newer models, like the Centurion 45 S, and the Centurion 40 S

No, I'm not asking about the tubby pilot house/ deck salon boats they are currently building....


Centurion 45 S on yachtworld

Centurion 40 S on yachtworld


How would they compare with, say, an X-Yacht?


I can't imagine an X-Yacht having the poor joinerwork we saw on a boat show model 40S (not to mention the huge wasted spaces on the Centurion). The main bulkhead in the V-berth had a 1/4" gap in the veneer right in the middle of the bulkhead from top to bottom, showing the underlying plywood. Not impressed. If they care that little about what you can see, I'm scared to think about the bits you can't see.

#23 Hiracer

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:27 PM

As long as we're talking about Wauquiez...

and opinions on the slightly newer models, like the Centurion 45 S, and the Centurion 40 S

No, I'm not asking about the tubby pilot house/ deck salon boats they are currently building....


Centurion 45 S on yachtworld

Centurion 40 S on yachtworld


How would they compare with, say, an X-Yacht?

Beneteau bought out Henri Wauquiez in the early 2000s IIRC. I have no first hand experience with the boats after the buyout, but I seriously doubt Beneteau can build like Henri did. The two approaches are entirely different.

Henri died a year or two after the buyout.

#24 Hiracer

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:36 PM

Beneteau bought out Henri Wauquiez in the early 2000s IIRC. I have no first hand experience with the boats after the buyout, but I seriously doubt Beneteau can build like Henri did. The two approaches are entirely different.

Henri died a year or two after the buyout.

Correction, Henri sold to Olivier Prouvost in 1988 who in turn sold to Beneteau in the early 2000s.

#25 slap

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:53 AM

Note that Wauquiez is no longer a part of Group Beneteau.

#26 us7070

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 10:11 AM

As long as we're talking about Wauquiez...

and opinions on the slightly newer models, like the Centurion 45 S, and the Centurion 40 S

No, I'm not asking about the tubby pilot house/ deck salon boats they are currently building....


Centurion 45 S on yachtworld

Centurion 40 S on yachtworld


How would they compare with, say, an X-Yacht?


I can't imagine an X-Yacht having the poor joinerwork we saw on a boat show model 40S (not to mention the huge wasted spaces on the Centurion). The main bulkhead in the V-berth had a 1/4" gap in the veneer right in the middle of the bulkhead from top to bottom, showing the underlying plywood. Not impressed. If they care that little about what you can see, I'm scared to think about the bits you can't see.



interesting..., they don't look so bad in the pics.

#27 Hiracer

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 04:07 PM

Note that Wauquiez is no longer a part of Group Beneteau.



OK, I'll rise to the bait. Who owns them now?? And when did that happen?

#28 slap

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:22 PM

Note that Wauquiez is no longer a part of Group Beneteau.



OK, I'll rise to the bait. Who owns them now?? And when did that happen?


http://www.beneteau..../79/7/news.aspx

#29 adesso

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 09:15 PM

thanks for all the info/opinions. SA is the sailing worlds wikipedia. the pretorian does appear to be a great boat at a good price, even considering the necessary upgrades.

#30 Hiracer

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 11:03 PM

The group announced that it has entered exclusive discussions with Verdoso Industry for the sale of sailboat brand Wauquiez, which represents less than one per cent of the group's boat turnover. Beneteau says that the sales of Wauquiez and its automotive brand Microcar will allow the group the concentrate on growing two new markets: motorboats from 15m-25m (50ft-82ft) and residences.

The group has expressed intentions to grow the mobile home sector of its business to include residential housing. Turnover for Beneteau's mobile home activity was up 35.9 per cent on last year for the first three quarters of 2007/2008. Mobile homes accounted for 15.2 per cent of the group's business in 2006/2007, compared to 78.8 per cent represented by boats.

http://www.sail-worl...amp;tickerCID=0

I didn't even know that Beneteau made and sold mobile homes.

The Bénéteau Group has announced [in 2006] that it has entered into exclusive negotiations with AXA Private Equity with a view to acquiring IRM, a French manufacturer of mobile homes. The acquisition, which is expected to complete by early 2007, would make Bénéteau one of the leading manufacturers of mobile homes in Europe with sales of more than €150 million. The French boatbuilder already has its own line of prefabricated homes under the O'Hara brand name.

http://www.ibinews.c...915ibinews.html

Beneteau Company Snapshot Purchase a Full Report on this Company
Business
Description:
Beneteau(BENETEAU). The Group's principal activities are the production and distribution of boats and prefabricated homes. The Group operates through three main divisions namely Boats, Mobile Leisure Homes and Others. Under the Boats sector, the Group operates small sailing and motor boats for leisure purposes. It also includes larger sailing boats and catamarans. Mobile leisure home are prefabricated homes which also include open air accommodation. Under the Other sector, it manufactures and markets Unlicensed Vehicles. The Group operates under the brand names Beneteau, Jeanneau, CNB, Voyageur, Beneteau Peche, Wauquiez, Lagoon, Microcar and O'Hara. The Group operates mainly in France, North America and other parts of Europe.

http://www.corporate...cusip=C25030130

#31 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 11:27 AM

There are a few tied up in my marina right now :lol: :P


I didn't even know that Beneteau made and sold mobile homes.



#32 VALIS

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 03:13 PM

I'd go for the Praetorian. It will sal far better than the Crealock. Tankage will be an issue as Hi said.

And Born 2, with all due respect there are over 600 Tayana 37's out there and according to George Day of BLUE WATER SAILING they are the most popular offshore cruising boat by far. I'm not sure how many of those Crealocks they built but I know it was a lot less than 600.


I used the weasel word "might" because I am only speaking from personal experience. Statistically speaking, there are a bunch of Tayana 37's out there. I have experience on those great boats as well. All I'm sayin' is, while out and about I've heard more on-the-water chatter from Crealock 37's than any other single boat-type. I don't remember any chatter from Pretorians (or tribunes for that matter :lol: .

Don't forget that there are at least a few pre-Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37's out there as well. A good friend of mine bought an unfinished "Cruising Consultant's" Crealock 37 hull, finished the interior and rigging himself, and has taken it all over the Pacific. He is in Tonga with it now, soon to be heading back to Fiji.

I have no idea how many of Crealocks vs Tayanas vs ??? are actually out there cruising, but "most popular" probably means boats sold, not necessarily boats actively cruised.

I've never been on a Pretorian, but the Crealock 37 is a fine boat. The interior volume is relatively small, and the tankage is low by modern standards (but still pretty good). and I have to assume that Bob P. is correct about the relative sailing characteristics. I do know that it feels good to sail, and it will take you anywhere. Of course, I may be biased!

#33 JohnnyNunes

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 10:31 AM

Well i have a Pretorien for 8 years now, only sailed in Azores, but can garranty you that it is a great boat and a safe one. Never had problems, besides the normal ones (very small things), and it is a fast boat to (with a folding propeler made a realy big diference).

http://www.sailingho...pic-1003698.htm

#34 Joli

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 03:24 PM

KIS, you are too damn funny. Thanks for the chuckle!

Joli

There are a few tied up in my marina right now :lol: :P


I didn't even know that Beneteau made and sold mobile homes.






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