[R'n'R]

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

[taste machine]

R, on Sep 3 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

R'n'R,
Tasty will be a starter for AMS measurement.
The success of SMS should make it clear to all sports yacht owners that it's the way to go. AMS has been very successful in Victoria and appears to rate equitably the range of 30s currently racing. I'm keen to see how the FTs rate.
The taste machine will need slings and spreader bars as it has no single lift point. Noakes have previously directed me to a contact at Botany Cranes who can supply. Please let me know if you need the details.
If you need any assistance in getting the day organised, or on the day itself please let me know.
As SMS gave the sporties a boost, so AMS will for the sports yachts.
If boats entered in SASC Super30 series have AMS ratings then we will most definitely run an AMS pointscore.
Cheers C

[frayedsheet]

R, on Sep 3 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

There are no doubt a few Sydney Sportsboats that are looking to get measured for SMS also... RANSA Hardstanders F&B and Chameleon need measuring at least. Message me if you would like to join in the fun too... Plus, as long as you join the association prior, ASBA will pick up your contribution to the cost of the scales.

[Teaky]

Good work Gents. I think this is absolutely critical to the longevity of the class.

[R'n'R]

Thanks for the support....Yes i think it could make for a strong and equitable fleet of Super thirties.............There is no reason why the Super 30's and the Sportsboats can't have a really strong association and get the best out of the superb regatta venues on offer. At least we can then name our own race formats.

I will be talking with the ASBA next week as to their requirements for membership.

I will keep you posted on this thread........you can PM me with any questions until we get a list of players and get contact details for those that are interested.


I will organise slings and spreader bars and liase with RANSA to see whether we can use their facilities for a donation to RANSA.

cheers

[richiec]

Surely a F30 has been done so far? One of the VIC boats must have been done. So once this is all done and dusted and regattas are run under AMS, that'll be the end of the random handicaps and PHS system in those regattas?

[Heaven can wait]

As far as I'm aware the HCW 24-hour will be the first Regatta outside of Sydney to offer the Super 30's SMS/AMS if numbers are sufficient, in conjunction with the Sportsboats.

Get to it folks as the HCW 24-hour is YOUR Regatta. ;)

[John "Merlin"]

R, on Sep 2 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

...

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

Where can I find the requirements for the measurement process.
1. What needs to be on the boat.
2. What do we need to take off.
3. Sail measurements etc

John Merlin



....

[PHM]

Is there anything published about sms (I didn't find anything after about 30 seconds on google....)? From what I'm reading here, it sounds like we should think about importing it to the US.

Comments on how it performs for W-L vs. downwind distance etc would be appreciated.

[Buck30]

taste machine, on Sep 3 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

R, on Sep 3 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

R'n'R,
Tasty will be a starter for AMS measurement.
The success of SMS should make it clear to all sports yacht owners that it's the way to go. AMS has been very successful in Victoria and appears to rate equitably the range of 30s currently racing. I'm keen to see how the FTs rate.
The taste machine will need slings and spreader bars as it has no single lift point. Noakes have previously directed me to a contact at Botany Cranes who can supply. Please let me know if you need the details.
If you need any assistance in getting the day organised, or on the day itself please let me know.
As SMS gave the sporties a boost, so AMS will for the sports yachts.
If boats entered in SASC Super30 series have AMS ratings then we will most definitely run an AMS pointscore.
Cheers C

C,

Given EVO and Tasty are very similar appart from Fin construction and depth and a few other tweaks. Will EVO need to be measured. I am happy to get her measured but unfortunately I am OS on that date. So if I don't need to get the crew to do if for me I wont.

Cheers

S

[frayedsheet]

Buck30, on Sep 4 2009, 12:25 PM, said:

taste machine, on Sep 3 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

R, on Sep 3 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

R'n'R,
Tasty will be a starter for AMS measurement.
The success of SMS should make it clear to all sports yacht owners that it's the way to go. AMS has been very successful in Victoria and appears to rate equitably the range of 30s currently racing. I'm keen to see how the FTs rate.
The taste machine will need slings and spreader bars as it has no single lift point. Noakes have previously directed me to a contact at Botany Cranes who can supply. Please let me know if you need the details.
If you need any assistance in getting the day organised, or on the day itself please let me know.
As SMS gave the sporties a boost, so AMS will for the sports yachts.
If boats entered in SASC Super30 series have AMS ratings then we will most definitely run an AMS pointscore.
Cheers C

C,

Given EVO and Tasty are very similar appart from Fin construction and depth and a few other tweaks. Will EVO need to be measured. I am happy to get her measured but unfortunately I am OS on that date. So if I don't need to get the crew to do if for me I wont.

Cheers

S

From ASBAs experience and point of view the only way you dont need to have your boat measured is if you are part of a tightly controlled, active, one design class AND the numbers on your boats certificate are based on the one design rule worst case measurements. Currently the Melges 24's are done this way for SMS but remember they do cop a penalty compared to individually measuring the boats as everything is worst case maximum to class rules - not actual.

Plenty of good reading material is in the AMS - SMS yearbook here: http://www.yachtingv....com.au/?21743m This is mandatory reading material if you are considering doing the AMS thing.

ASBA has a SMS measurement guide near to completion - it will be on www.asba.org.au soon.

[PHM]

Thanks for the link.

[John "Merlin"]

R, on Sep 2 2009, 09:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

Rock N Roll,

I would like to have Merlin measured. We have two other sister boats, Echoes and the orignial Clubman , now up the river. I am contacting those owners.

Add me to the list and send details when available

John Merlin


....

[taste machine]

Buck30, on Sep 4 2009, 12:25 PM, said:

taste machine, on Sep 3 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

R, on Sep 3 2009, 03:01 PM, said:

Following the cancellation of the AMS measurement day for Super Thirty boats earlier in the year, Sunday 25th October has been set aside as a measurement day in Sydney.

Please post your interest here on this thread so that we get an idea of numbers and whether we need to look at a further date in November.

Only one of each class needs to be measured (M32, Farr30, Flying Tiger, etc.) or if you have a one off we will measure each boat in turn so that a rating can be applied to your particular yacht.

Those boats that have an SMS rating or an IRC rating should also supply that certificate so as to streamline the measurement and weighing.

If your boat requires slings for weighing please advise prior to the measurement day.

There has been discussion with organisers and management of the major regattas both in Sydney, Melbourne and Queensland and all have agreed that an AMS Super Thirty division is possible should the numbers be present. The Australian Sports Boat Association are keen to support a Super 30 programme as long as the boat owners show support for the measurement regime.

If enough owners support the ASBA Super 30 model then representation to the clubs to include AMS results will be made.

Following the success of the SMS sportsboat measurement model there is no reason that the Super 30 yachts can't enjoy the same fixed rating system and get away from Wheelchair PHS racing.

There will be a small cost for the measurement to cover scales and crane, this will be advised as soon as practicable.

R'n'R,
Tasty will be a starter for AMS measurement.
The success of SMS should make it clear to all sports yacht owners that it's the way to go. AMS has been very successful in Victoria and appears to rate equitably the range of 30s currently racing. I'm keen to see how the FTs rate.
The taste machine will need slings and spreader bars as it has no single lift point. Noakes have previously directed me to a contact at Botany Cranes who can supply. Please let me know if you need the details.
If you need any assistance in getting the day organised, or on the day itself please let me know.
As SMS gave the sporties a boost, so AMS will for the sports yachts.
If boats entered in SASC Super30 series have AMS ratings then we will most definitely run an AMS pointscore.
Cheers C

C,

Given EVO and Tasty are very similar appart from Fin construction and depth and a few other tweaks. Will EVO need to be measured. I am happy to get her measured but unfortunately I am OS on that date. So if I don't need to get the crew to do if for me I wont.

Cheers

S

S,

While EVO and tasty are from the same mold they are somewhat different in their current racing configuration.
Rating systems like AMS work at their best when each and every boat is measured (including weighing) so that any small differences can be reflected in their rating.
The measurement process is pretty straight forward, it's the weighing that needs organisation.
If you can get the boat ready before 25th then there are a few folk who can help your blokes get EVO AMS rated.
It will be worth it to have a number that relates to EVO as you have it configured.

Cheers C

[Teaky]

Plus Tasty could well be a quicker boat, perhaps lighter, which would result in an unnecessary penalty for EVO.

[richiec]

What's the thought process on something like a Farr30? Obviously, some are quicker, newer, perhaps lighter than others - even though they are technically one design boats and most have one design certificates. Does it go, that if one is measured, they'll all be slapped with the same AMS rating? Sames goes for Melges32's. Of course, there are less of these around, but It's likely there will be subtle differences in weight, particularly. How does AMS propse to deal with any subtle differences? Perhaps the answer is for as many as possible to be measured?

[frayedsheet]

richiec, on Sep 8 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

What's the thought process on something like a Farr30? Obviously, some are quicker, newer, perhaps lighter than others - even though they are technically one design boats and most have one design certificates. Does it go, that if one is measured, they'll all be slapped with the same AMS rating? Sames goes for Melges32's. Of course, there are less of these around, but It's likely there will be subtle differences in weight, particularly. How does AMS propse to deal with any subtle differences? Perhaps the answer is for as many as possible to be measured?

Its up to the one design class to decide as a whole. No one is forcing you either way. The M24's could do it (I believe) because their boat weights are very tightly controlled. Ive been told that Sydney 38's have two numbers; a one design number and an individual number. The three MUMM30s /F30s that are AMS listed at http://www.topyacht...._list_di...NAME,%20SAIL_NO all have different numbers so your association obviously has not as yet gone the way of the M24's or Syd38's.

[gbm]

As I understand it, the M24's have gone for the one design numbers, which ARE all based on the maximum sail areas, minimum weights etc.

As a result they are the "worst case" handicaps. they have gone that way because they (as an association) want one design and are more interested in that - ie over the line results...

IF they all got measured individually their numbers would be lower (better handicap) as none of the boats are on minimum mweight, maximum sail areas etc etc.

So it depends what the F 30's want.... same as the M32's. if you want to keep the OD aspect or not.... For resale it would (I expect) be a very good idea to keep the OD nature of the boats.

[R'n'R]

I am extremely pleased to see the debate and suggestions here for the Super Thirty racing and measurement.

I agree that every boat should be measured seperately, but due to the constraints of time and in the interests of getting the different classes racing under an acceptable rating system it will be faster to give each boat that is a OD class a standard rating. If the individual owners want to front up for a one off measurement at a later date then it should be their prerogative to do so.

There will always be minor differences between the boats and if an owner feels that a re-measure will show up any deficiencies in the standard class rating applied, then they should procede with a re-measurement.

There are four M32's that are wanting arating even though we will measure one to get started. i think we should head the same way with the F30 and the FT10's.

Keep up the debate and lets spread the word so we get a clearcut rating system with a strong S30 class at the different ragattas and clubs.

We should organise a Super 30 owners meeting to ensure we are all in agreeance and get involvement in the ASBA.

Cheers

[richiec]

So, we have three F30's all rated in Victoria (a little over 10% of the Aus fleet - in total). I am interested to see that the newest of these has a 'better rating' than it's older 'sister' boat (K2 vs Kato/Cleopatra). Say, none of the Sydney boats (F30's) can get their act together for the measurement day, which of the 3 Victorian ratings would any Sydney boat be likely given for a regatta (Audi, for example)? You'd have to think the least favoured number would apply to all 'non-measured' boats, until such time as any of the Sydney F30's decided to get their own AMS number.

[taste machine]

My view is that the one design fleets would race with a single AMS number.
Select a boat that would be capable of winning a OD event and rate it for AMS....every other boat of type (racing in OD trim) gets the same AMS number.
PHS is for the old/older/tired boats that would no longer be competitive in a top OD regatta.
That said, I am not against OD boats turbo-charging their mounts....for which they can remeasure for a new AMS number. These boats can only race under a single AMS number for a series....no swapping back and forward like Dennis in Fremantle!
For the FT fleet in Sydney you chaps must decide what config gets a OD AMS rating. There are some varying spinnaker sizes...notionally complying with OD rules... but you may be disadvantaging those owners who have not forked out for a bigger kite.

[kelly]

taste machine, on Sep 8 2009, 08:52 AM, said:

My view is that the one design fleets would race with a single AMS number.
Select a boat that would be capable of winning a OD event and rate it for AMS....every other boat of type (racing in OD trim) gets the same AMS number.
PHS is for the old/older/tired boats that would no longer be competitive in a top OD regatta.
That said, I am not against OD boats turbo-charging their mounts....for which they can remeasure for a new AMS number. These boats can only race under a single AMS number for a series....no swapping back and forward like Dennis in Fremantle!
For the FT fleet in Sydney you chaps must decide what config gets a OD AMS rating. There are some varying spinnaker sizes...notionally complying with OD rules... but you may be disadvantaging those owners who have not forked out for a bigger kite.

Messeurs Taste Machine...

Here in La France, Un Design is Un Design. if the Bateau confirms with Un Design Specificiqueation then its OK mate... So what I am really trying to say is that you may have come to a weak point in the OD AMS system.. in the case of the FT10's the larger Kites which some owners have purchased are really runners and are class legal ie. they comply with the one Desing specs in all respects, they are just a little larger then the AP delivery kite. If some sail maker who is really good at Calculus and can come up with an even larger maximum area within the class rules should that mean that all FT10's should suffer due to the genius of their mathematics. The owners who have the runners are going to use them both in One Design and S30 / AMS racing. So what I am hearing is that we should find the largest of the Runners and present this for measurement and everyone else will need to suffer or upgrade. Or we go the other way and for S30/AMS everyone must use the minimal AP Delivery Kite or something made to its specs. This will of course disadvantage the owners who have forked out for a larger Runner and not be able to use it in S30/AMS . Not a lot of happy campers either way.

In our one design racing we will accept anything that is class legal, including the number of kites we can carry. I suspec that AMS will need to move the same way for simplicity.... Au Revoir. ..

[GybeSet®]

kelly, on Sep 9 2009, 05:36 AM, said:

So what I am really trying to say is that you may have come to a weak point in the OD AMS system.. Not a lot of happy campers either way.

In our one design racing we will accept anything that is class legal,

I suspec that AMS will need to move the same way for simplicity....

AMS does not have this weak point, AMS does not need to move, same as IRC with the OD tickets

It's a measured system, if you are out of class you measure, (happy campers all 'round)

if you are 'IN' OD trim theres a loophole to use a OD ticket, however this still requires a 'measure' of sorts, that you hold class compliance

This is not a weak point nor an indicator that AMS 'needs to move'

It's a very simple concept, out of class 'measure'
.

[richiec]

kelly, on Sep 9 2009, 05:36 AM, said:

taste machine, on Sep 8 2009, 08:52 AM, said:

My view is that the one design fleets would race with a single AMS number.
Select a boat that would be capable of winning a OD event and rate it for AMS....every other boat of type (racing in OD trim) gets the same AMS number.
PHS is for the old/older/tired boats that would no longer be competitive in a top OD regatta.
That said, I am not against OD boats turbo-charging their mounts....for which they can remeasure for a new AMS number. These boats can only race under a single AMS number for a series....no swapping back and forward like Dennis in Fremantle!
For the FT fleet in Sydney you chaps must decide what config gets a OD AMS rating. There are some varying spinnaker sizes...notionally complying with OD rules... but you may be disadvantaging those owners who have not forked out for a bigger kite.

Messeurs Taste Machine...

Here in La France, Un Design is Un Design. if the Bateau confirms with Un Design Specificiqueation then its OK mate... So what I am really trying to say is that you may have come to a weak point in the OD AMS system.. in the case of the FT10's the larger Kites which some owners have purchased are really runners and are class legal ie. they comply with the one Desing specs in all respects, they are just a little larger then the AP delivery kite. If some sail maker who is really good at Calculus and can come up with an even larger maximum area within the class rules should that mean that all FT10's should suffer due to the genius of their mathematics. The owners who have the runners are going to use them both in One Design and S30 / AMS racing. So what I am hearing is that we should find the largest of the Runners and present this for measurement and everyone else will need to suffer or upgrade. Or we go the other way and for S30/AMS everyone must use the minimal AP Delivery Kite or something made to its specs. This will of course disadvantage the owners who have forked out for a larger Runner and not be able to use it in S30/AMS . Not a lot of happy campers either way.

In our one design racing we will accept anything that is class legal, including the number of kites we can carry. I suspec that AMS will need to move the same way for simplicity.... Au Revoir. ..

If the bigger FTkites are class legal and can be used in OD regattas, against those FT's who chose to run with their original delivery kites, this should not be an issue. As long as they are legal, and in use in OD FT10 regattas, no problems. Once you open that 'pandoras', you'll then have to start saying, 'that boat X has NEW sails' and 'boat Y has five year old rags that are buggered' so who cops the penalty there.

Some could argue it encourages arms races, and those with the resources and energy to invest in new sails, are at an advantage - but then, why should they be at a dis-advantage against those who don't want to keep their boats in peak racing trim.

There is something to be said for the M24 approach of a single number for any boat with a tight One Design framework, such as the F30 and M32 (or even an FT10). Can anyone shed any light on why the three Victorian Farr30's there actually have differing AMS numbers?

[gbm]

richiec, on Sep 9 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

kelly, on Sep 9 2009, 05:36 AM, said:

taste machine, on Sep 8 2009, 08:52 AM, said:

My view is that the one design fleets would race with a single AMS number.
Select a boat that would be capable of winning a OD event and rate it for AMS....every other boat of type (racing in OD trim) gets the same AMS number.
PHS is for the old/older/tired boats that would no longer be competitive in a top OD regatta.
That said, I am not against OD boats turbo-charging their mounts....for which they can remeasure for a new AMS number. These boats can only race under a single AMS number for a series....no swapping back and forward like Dennis in Fremantle!
For the FT fleet in Sydney you chaps must decide what config gets a OD AMS rating. There are some varying spinnaker sizes...notionally complying with OD rules... but you may be disadvantaging those owners who have not forked out for a bigger kite.

Messeurs Taste Machine...

Here in La France, Un Design is Un Design. if the Bateau confirms with Un Design Specificiqueation then its OK mate... So what I am really trying to say is that you may have come to a weak point in the OD AMS system.. in the case of the FT10's the larger Kites which some owners have purchased are really runners and are class legal ie. they comply with the one Desing specs in all respects, they are just a little larger then the AP delivery kite. If some sail maker who is really good at Calculus and can come up with an even larger maximum area within the class rules should that mean that all FT10's should suffer due to the genius of their mathematics. The owners who have the runners are going to use them both in One Design and S30 / AMS racing. So what I am hearing is that we should find the largest of the Runners and present this for measurement and everyone else will need to suffer or upgrade. Or we go the other way and for S30/AMS everyone must use the minimal AP Delivery Kite or something made to its specs. This will of course disadvantage the owners who have forked out for a larger Runner and not be able to use it in S30/AMS . Not a lot of happy campers either way.

In our one design racing we will accept anything that is class legal, including the number of kites we can carry. I suspec that AMS will need to move the same way for simplicity.... Au Revoir. ..

If the bigger FTkites are class legal and can be used in OD regattas, against those FT's who chose to run with their original delivery kites, this should not be an issue. As long as they are legal, and in use in OD FT10 regattas, no problems. Once you open that 'pandoras', you'll then have to start saying, 'that boat X has NEW sails' and 'boat Y has five year old rags that are buggered' so who cops the penalty there.

Some could argue it encourages arms races, and those with the resources and energy to invest in new sails, are at an advantage - but then, why should they be at a dis-advantage against those who don't want to keep their boats in peak racing trim.

There is something to be said for the M24 approach of a single number for any boat with a tight One Design framework, such as the F30 and M32 (or even an FT10). Can anyone shed any light on why the three Victorian Farr30's there actually have differing AMS numbers?

Their numbers are 0.938, 0.940 and 0.942.

So I would expect that the differences are VERY small and probably in their size of their sails. - All will be within teh class limits but some may be slightly more inside! or maybe the measured weights??

You can find out the differecence, you just need to pay for the certificates.... ~$40 each I think

If as a group they decided to get a number that used the maximum allowable sail sizes, then the number would probably be around the 0.942 or slightly higher

I think the problem for the FT10 is, do they have a strict OD set of rules, measurements and limits on what is and is not allowed? I don't think so. and if they do they are not a strong or as tight as the M24, M32 or Farr 30 OD rules.

The AMS rule book states that

"The AMS and SMS are not performance based systems and a boat cannot expect to do well nor
to enjoy a favourable rating if the hull, the rigging and the sails are not in top condition and if the
crew work is not of the highest order"

and

"The assumed configuration of the boat is as follows:
- The boat is in optimum racing trim, carries at the least all equipment and fittings required
by the Rating Certificate and which was on the boat at the time of its measurement.
(YA Special Regulations Safety Category 6).
- The hull is fair and clean.
- Sails are in good condition
- A standard propulsion system and propeller is fitted.
- The vessel is well sailed.
- The sailing trim is as per the measurement trim when weighed with the engine
attached in its operating position.
-The owner complies with the standards of fair play and immediately declares all changes
that affect the rating."