[Vincent DePillis]

Went to Harken site to read press releases. "25-50% reduction in weight" sure got my attention. Also sounds like you can strip and clean without removing fromthe deck?

It is about time they did this. Anybody get a hands on view at Annapolis?

[bammiller]

Yep, I have had my hands all over them, and while some might not consider me unbiased (disclosure - I am a Harken distributor); I think these winches are a big step forward in winch design.

I most specifically like the sefltailer; there is no pinch point where line or clothing (or a childs fingers) can get caught.

The are also using a composite roller bearing system that doesnt require grease for lubrication. You still need to grease the gear train, but nothing above the bottom stem. They had also (finally) designed the bearing to remain installed on the center stem when you lift the drum off the winch. Not a big deal, but I have dropped at least 1 set of bearing over the side that way.

Service is very simple (finally) and the install time is really quick; no extra hands needed to hold the bolt above deck while tightening from below.

Finally, and this is something is the whole point of the winch; the radial pattern on the drum requires fewer wraps than the competitors and at the same time, is more gentle to the line than versions in the past.

There are lots of other details shown to me by Harken, but these, in my mind, stood out most prominently. Let me know if you want the PDF; I can get it emailed to you but if I say anymore I might have to buy an advertisement.

Bam Miller

[Ohf Shore]

What are they like price whise?

Loking at upgrading primarys on a 60 footer to three speed non self tailing.

[bammiller]

Sorry, the Radial line of winches is available in selftailing only.

I have not seen the pricing as of yet; winches wont be available until January '10 - Expect pricing by the end of this month, but they will probably be similar to pricing (MSRP) on the current models.

Bam Miller

[Slowboat]

While talking about Harken winches, it should be mentioned that Defender is having a huge sale on the current style Harkens right now.

[DDW]

Kinda looks like they have caught part way up with Andersen.

Must be cheaper though?

[Juan Mauri]

The new Harken Radial Winches will be available on our website as soon as we receive the price list, but I am sure they will be close with current MSRP prices.

Current Harken Offer: Harken is offering a Buy One, Get the Second One 1/2 Off, which comes to a total savings of 25%. We went a step forward and we are offering all winches included in the Harken promo at 25% off from our already discounted prices (even if you buy just one).

Here a couple example of current low prices:

Harken Winches - Special Offer

Harken # 32 Self Tailing Two-speed Winch - Aluminum: $699
Harken # 40 Self Tailing Two-speed Winch - Aluminum: $803
Harken # 44 Self Tailing Two-speed Winch - Aluminum: $1014

This is a great opportunity to upgrade your winches.

[O30_OldSchool]

You might want to check out www.pridemarine.com for closeout winches.......

[Vincent DePillis]

"There are lots of other details shown to me by Harken, but these, in my mind, stood out most prominently. Let me know if you want the PDF; I can get it emailed to you but if I say anymore I might have to buy an advertisement."


I don't see weights yet on the site. Also curious if they have managed to increase the mechanical efficiency-- i.e. reduce friction losses.

Bam Miller
[/quote]

[Presuming Ed]

Data/specs are on the Harken website, in the online catalogue.

http://viewer.zmags....8#/1f45c228/230

http://viewer.zmags....8#/1f45c228/232

[bammiller]

Presuming Ed, on Oct 12 2009, 08:00 AM, said:

Data/specs are on the Harken website, in the online catalogue.

http://viewer.zmags....8#/1f45c228/230

http://viewer.zmags....8#/1f45c228/232

Great info; here is the PDF which has similar info in a down-loadable format.

 Radial_intro_story_lr.pdf (758.89K)
Number of downloads: 112

Bam Miller

[doghouse]

Looks like they dropped the racing line of winches for 2010?

[Vincent DePillis]

"Kinda looks like they have caught part way up with Andersen."

In what way are they still behind?

[DDW]

Vincent DePillis, on Oct 12 2009, 08:49 AM, said:

"Kinda looks like they have caught part way up with Andersen."

In what way are they still behind?

They are still using disposable materials and their motor drives are kind of hinky. Still, its a nice improvement over their superseded versions. Looks like they are pretty light too, at least in the all aluminum version.

[Olsonist]

I wonder how the Harken style radial ribs will be for trimming kites. The Andersen winches give a noticeable bump when sheeting out.

I wonder if the rib approach works well with aluminum drums. It definitely works well for steel, gripping without abrading.

Lastly, I wonder if these winches are getting too light. Yeah, too light. You don't get something for nothing.

[aA]

no discounts on #16 - 2 speed mr. mauri?

[Vincent DePillis]

"They are still using disposable materials..."

Do I detect the skilled machinist's contempt for plastic?

I must admit, I too wonder about the tradeoffs between weight and durability, cost and long term performance. The misgivings are increased when they use cheesy terms like "metal replacement technology," instead of forthrightly saying exactly what the material really is.

However, I suspect (based on nothing more than respect for the company and the time that they have taken in redoing the winch line) that these winches will be a new benchmark.

[DDW]

Vincent DePillis, on Oct 12 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

"They are still using disposable materials..."

Do I detect the skilled machinist's contempt for plastic?

I must admit, I too wonder about the tradeoffs between weight and durability, cost and long term performance. The misgivings are increased when they use cheesy terms like "metal replacement technology," instead of forthrightly saying exactly what the material really is.

However, I suspect (based on nothing more than respect for the company and the time that they have taken in redoing the winch line) that these winches will be a new benchmark.

Plastic has its place as does aluminum. The winches will no doubt last for many years, but then they will need to be replaced. The plastic gets eaten by the UV, the aluminum eventually corrodes (the black anodizing looks tawdry long before), and the chrome plating will flake away. In a boat used really hard you might wear out the gear trains and bearing races prior to that, but for most boats time and decay are the killer. An all stainless Andersen will look new on Judgement Day. Harken makes some stuff (like their stainless big boat blocks) that will be sitting there on that Day looking just as good.

I do not like Harken's motor drive disengagement which I gather to be the same as it has always been: you must insert a winch handle to disengage the motor, then you can't use the motor until you remove the winch handle.

I do have great respect for Harken, they are tops at customer service and their stuff mostly works, two things some other companies (like Lewmar) are lacking.

[doghouse]

Who in the hell thinks these winches are light??!?! They are just now getting to a competitive weight. If Andersen's, which could be used for a spare anchor, are your frame of reference, then yeah, I guess they might be considered light.

[Vincent DePillis]

"a competitive weight"

Who makes the winches you consider to be competitive? (Excluding any winch made with ceramic or titanium)


Take a Self tailing #40 2 speed:

Old harken in aluminum: 4.7 kg (B402st)
New Harken 3.8 kg
Lewmar 4.9
Antal 4.6

[DDW]

Vincent DePillis, on Oct 12 2009, 02:38 PM, said:

"a competitive weight"

Who makes the winches you consider to be competitive? (Excluding any winch made with ceramic or titanium)


Take a Self tailing #40 2 speed:

Old harken in aluminum: 4.7 kg (B402st)
New Harken 3.8 kg
Lewmar 4.9
Antal 4.6

To which we can add, Andersen #40 2-speed ST: 5.0 kg. Yeah its the heaviest of the bunch by 0.1 kg (2%!!!), but it is also all stainless steel and bronze in a sea of aluminum and plastic.

[Olsonist]

Andersen stainless steel 40ST 4.9 kg. $900 from Binnacle.

Now if you've got a planing sport boat and you're up on plane then maybe just maybe your winch weight is that important. But I have a displacement boat where the loads just go up and I'll take my reliability over your kilogram.

[Rail Meat]

Olsonist, on Oct 13 2009, 12:40 AM, said:

Andersen stainless steel 40ST 4.9 kg. $900 from Binnacle.

Now if you've got a planing sport boat and you're up on plane then maybe just maybe your winch weight is that important. But I have a displacement boat where the loads just go up and I'll take my reliability over your kilogram.

Weight reduction is a game of ounces / grams. Find them where you can and add them up. There is no silver bullet to getting weight out of a boat... you have to find it in every single thing that goes on or into the boat.

I have the Antals and find them to be fantastic. Light, easy to service, good with line in both ways (grip without abrasion) and sturdy. It will be interesting to check out the new Harkens.

[Vincent DePillis]

"all stainless steel and bronze in a sea of aluminum and plastic."

The amazing thing is how close the Andersen is in weight to the plastic and aluminum deals versions. Benfits of refined design, I guess.


But it looks like Harken shaved almost a full kilo out of the weight of the #40. That cannot possibly be just the plastic roller bearings, right?

The gears have to be steel and the drum is still alu. d'ya think that made the spindle differently? or just did the FEA more carefully? If they can sell it for 20% less than the Andersen, that would be a compelling deal.

[DDW]

Vincent DePillis, on Oct 12 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

"all stainless steel and bronze in a sea of aluminum and plastic."

The amazing thing is how close the Andersen is in weight to the plastic and aluminum deals versions. Benfits of refined design, I guess.


But it looks like Harken shaved almost a full kilo out of the weight of the #40. That cannot possibly be just the plastic roller bearings, right?

The gears have to be steel and the drum is still alu. d'ya think that made the spindle differently? or just did the FEA more carefully? If they can sell it for 20% less than the Andersen, that would be a compelling deal.

It looks to me like Harken made the spindle and gear cage out of aluminum. Andersens - and if I remember right the old Harkens - have a bronze spindle and gear cage. That could be your kilo right there. There certainly isn't a kilo in the bearings, although as Railmeat rightly points out, grams add up.

The Andersens are very generally similar in construction to the others, until you get to the drum. It is tig welded from deep drawn SS sheet metal components, with the ring gear machined from aluminum bronze and tig welded to the SS drum. This is quite different than every one else, cast bronze or aluminum drums being normal.